by B.B. Pelletier
The Walther LGV Olympia is a beautiful breakbarrel spring-piston target rifle from the 1960s.
Today, we’ll look at the velocity of my Walther LGV Olympia target rifle. I told you in Part 1 how serendipity brought me to this rifle and what a find it was. Of course, this one has been tuned, just like they all have by now. Walther was one of those companies that used an improper formulation for its piston seals in the 1960s and ’70s; and as a result, all the original seals have dry-rotted. At the very least, all the guns should have been resealed.
This particular rifle was resealed and was supposed to be shooting on the hot side. Back when it was a new rifle, 650 f.p.s. was considered the right velocity for a 10-meter rifle. Today, it’s more like 550-590 f.p.s. So, this vintage target rifle is faster than a lot of today’s world-class target rifles.
Another legendary feature of the LGV was the low cocking effort. My first LGV cocked with less than 12 lbs. of force. This one requires 15 lbs., which puts it 3 lbs. under an Air Venturi Bronco! If it didn’t weight so much, it would be the ideal kid’s gun. But it does weigh a lot, and so it’s better suited to full-grown adults who are physically able and also know how to apply the proper offhand technique.
Trigger-pull
The trigger on my Olympia is adjusted as a two-stage trigger, and stage two breaks at 12 oz. I suppose I could adjust it even lighter, but I hardly see the need. There’s no overtravel adjustment — after the break, the trigger blade continues to move.
The trigger adjusts for pull weight and length of stages.
JSB S100 pellets
Okay, time to test velocity. The first pellets I tried were JSB S100 target pellets. These have a 4.52mm head and average 591 f.p.s. in this rifle. The spread went from 576 to 599, which is pretty large for a rifle of this quality. At 10 meters, though, that much variation would probably not show up on the target. The average muzzle energy for this nominal 8.2-grain pellet is 6.36 foot-pounds. I was surprised to find that the pellets in this tin of “hand-sorted” pellets actually weighed between 8.0 and 8.4 grains. They’re supposed to be hand-sorted by weight, so I’d like to know how that happened!
RWS Hobby pellets
The next pellet I tried was the RWS Hobby. At seven grains even, they’re often the fastest lead pellets I can try. In this rifle, they averaged 640 f.p.s. with a spread from 633 to a high of 644 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy is 6.37 foot-pounds.
RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets
The next pellets I tried were RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets that also weigh 7 grains even. They averaged 662 f.p.s. in this rifle and seemed to fit the breech the best of all pellets I tried. The spread went from 654 to 664 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 6.81 foot-pounds. I couldn’t find a head size on the tin, which is most unusual for top-grade target pellets.
H&N Rifle Match pellets
The last pellet I tested was the H&N Match Rifle pellet in head size 4.50mm. At a stable, consistent weight of 8.2 grains, these pellets averaged 593 f.p.s. in this rifle. The spread went from 585 to 602 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 6.4 foot-pounds.
Firing behavior
The LGV was one of the last target air rifles to use mass to counteract recoil. As I mentioned in Part 1, the barrel has a very heavy steel sleeve around it and there’s also a lead weight in the forearm, so the overall balance is decidedly muzzle-heavy. Consequently, you feel almost no recoil when the gun fires. This particular rifle also fires very smoothly, with almost no vibration. Cocking was equally smooth until halfway through the test, when the rifle developed a scraping feel while being cocked. I found that if I worked the barrel back and forth after the piston was cocked, the scraping could still be felt, so the problem lies in the cocking linkage, not powerplant itself. I guess I’ll have to strip it down and attend to whatever is apparently dry in the cocking linkage.
Looking straight up at the cocking linkage, we see that the LGV Olympia has a two-piece articulated cocking link. That’s why the cocking slot can be so small, and that, in turn, reduces the amount of powerplant vibration.
I get the feeling that this rifle wants to plunk them all into the same hole. We’ll find out when we get to part three.
So question from ignoramus(me 🙂 ) how do you call this rear sight on this gun because i am sucker for this kinda sights!? This gun is just perfect for target shooting with those speeds i don’t know why would 170m/s be any better than 200m/s or even 220 m/s (721 fps ) !?
Milan,
We call it the rear sight a Peep or Aperture Sight. 170m/s is enough for 10m, and the lower the velocity, the less potential for recoil. Match rifles since the FWB603 (last of FWB’s SSP match rifles) include an anti-recoil device fitted to counteract the acceleration of the pellet. Using an electronic tracking system, you can see and record the movement across the target generated by the recoil while the pellet is traversing the barrel. Far more movement than I would have thought.
BB – can you identify the three screws on the trigger in your LGV? The LG-55T I picked up at Roanoke has a similar set of screws – the middle screw on your LGV is behind the trigger on the 55.
Jay
Thank you Jay
Jay,
Do you have a link to the tests showing gun movement while the pellet is in the barrel? As a physicist/shooter I would love to see them. I’ve always thought it was one of the limiting factors on air gun accuracy (of course, all new precision guns have compensators now, which must help!).
Since at least the age of dueling with rifled pistols the recipe for accuracy has been a heavy projectile, comparatively low velocity (small charge), and a stable platform. You need enough muzzle velocity to stabilize the pellet aerodynamically, enough energy to penetrate the target, and the appropriate twist on the rifling for gyroscopic stability.
Pete,
The data is collected through the SCATT system and reported in Air Rifle Shooting, along with a fairly detailed description. A great read for anyone interested in 10m shooting.
Jay
I don’t know where to get “Air Rifle Shooting”, nor even exactly what it is… 🙁
pete
Unfortunately, not available from PA, but you can get it from Pilkguns, Champion’s Choice, etc. ISBN-10: 3980974634. Probably not worth the money simply to look at the SCATT traces, but if you are interested in 10m off hand shooting, it is a great staring point. Written as much for coaches as shooters.
Jay
I feel stupid. Of course you mean the German book published by MEC and written by Rinkemeier. I’ve got it; I’ll go look up the data. Thanks.
pete
Pete i don’t know will this help but it will probably be interesting to somebody http://www.arld1.com/pistonpelletdynamics.html
Pete,
Is this similar to what you’re looking for? If you scroll down past the first section, you’ll see the rest is written in English.
– Orin
Orin,
What an interesting link. Now I know what I’m doing when I am putting ten of them through the same hole. Stop the motion with position control, put cross hairs on target then I almost forget sight picture cause I know it’s not going to change cause I’ve got 100% position control, and really concentrate on the trigger squeeze.
I only wish that those times occurred more than twice a tin of 500.
Bruce
One reason for no trigger stop is at the time the shooters felt that a stop might cause the rifle to move when it was hit as you pulled the trigger…pellet should have left the barrel by that time but…
I find it interesting that match pistol triggers do have a positive stop, while rifle triggers deliberately allow post-break trigger movement. It may have to do with differences in lock time and the lever arm from trigger to muzzle.
BB:
Now that has answered a question I was meaning to ask.
One of the best features(visually speaking) I like on my HW is the short cocking slot.
Also how it allows the stock to be attached by just one and not two screws.
A two-piece articulated cocking link is how they do it.Cheers.
DaveUK
Hey BB, just a curiosity question: when you test a new rifle model, you tend more often to choose .177. Any particular reason, or is it what’s most often sold? Really no matter for me, as I’ve recently met up with the rifle I’ve been looking for: Walther’s Talon Magnum in .22. Had a chance to use one awhile back and it was SWEET. Jp
JP,
I test what I can get. But if I have a choice, I ask for the more powerful rifles to come in .22.
B.B.
Hi BB,
Well, how did the gun trading go at the gun shop you mentioned yesterday? I hope you have a big grin on your face!
David Enoch
David,
It happens later today.
B.B.
Morning B.B.,
I keep going back to the picture of the trigger guard and admiring the polish, bluing and checkering.
then there is the last picture which has what looks like a dust ball, spider egg ball or perhaps some wood splinters sticking out into the cocking slot.
Bruce
Mr B,
I notice that , too and it looks like another exactly opposite down in the shadows. It must be a roughing up made by the cocking mechanism, eh?
-CJe
Bruce,
That is a tearing out of wood fibers from the edge of the cocking slot.
B.B.
Bruce,
No, I’m wrong! Those (there is one on either side) are the stock screws intruding into the cocking slot. And when the short part of the articulated cocking link passes over them, they slow the stroke with a scraping. Problem identified!
B.B.
I’m a big fan of the articulated cocking lever.
Esthetically I find the stock of my Slavia 630, which has a cocking slot about the same size as this gun, to be much more appealing than that of my Avanti 835 which has the long slot with the two wood slabs along the sides.
Dang! I thought I had it! Good eye Bruce for seeing that in the first place! You deserve a pat on the back (and a free cup of Espresso if you ever visit BB, I would think)!
-CJr
Good morning, BB:
Thanks for the superb response to my question about the Pro Sport yesterday. You have now given me all the information I need to make a decision about “pulling the trigger” or not. Also, I appreciate sincerely comments received from others. This is a very helpful website that I have been following this year and will continue to do so as I keep learning about airguns and other people’s shared interests and preferences in airguns. God bless you.
Fx Fanatic,
Don’t forget your obligation now to report back on your choice and give us your impressions, likes dislikes, etc. You owe us 🙂 No, you don’t really, just kidding, but we would like to hear from you again on your choice.
-CJr
FX Fanatic,
Yes, what CJr said, be sure to report back to us especially since the AA Pro Sport is not widely known among many of us from personal experience. I always admired the clever underlever design of that rifle.
Also, is your handle FX Fanatic for the FX Airgun? If so, let us all know what you shoot and what you like about the FX guns.
See ya on the blog
Brian in Idaho
FX Fanatic,
Ditto to what the other guys said about checking back and sounding off. Nobody on this blog knows everything and everyone knows something, so we like to hear from everyone.
B.B.
The boys Storms arrived today.
Haven’t had a chance to shoot them yet (I will have to ‘test’ them before Christmas 😉 ), but for the money the quality seems very good…easily on par with the Umarex Beretta Elite II.
This hobby is just so much damned fun!!
B.B., I was reading your Tom’s picks review of the RWS 54. I believe that a slight buzz in a gun of that quality would drive me nuts. Surely that could get tuned out. Also, and relevant to the Olympia, I find after shooting my springers the other day that I’m very enamored of the recoil and would not want a recoilless gun.
Matt61
Matt,
I acquired a .22 caliber Diana 54 at Roanoke and will be testing it for you soon. There is just a hint of buzz. It’s about like the buzz you get with an FWB 300S target rifle.
B.B.
Everyone:
I did make the gun deal of the century today. The gun I have wanted for the past five years is now mine. I followed my own advice, and two friends pitched in to help me.
The story is long and juicy and loaded with photos.
Next Friday.
B.B.
Great work, BB. You deserve a lot of good things.
Pete Zimmerman – about time you appeared on the Blog. Victor and I or at least I, have a question that requires someone with a bit of a physics background. Actually more of a fluid dynamics background but you’ll do :). Question – how far would a 12 grain pellet travel with an inital velocity of say 1300 fps before it drops below the speed of sound – use 1100 fps for round numbers?
Can you help?
Fred PRoNJ
Pete,
You’ll want to read yesterdays blog for a complete discussion of the purpose/goals.
In summary, it is claimed that pellets flying at supersonic speeds are less accurate because of instability during the drop in speed to sub-supersonic. I claim that this will happen even to pellets fired at sub-supersonic speeds. So the question is, is it possible to achieve a great effective range, accuracy wise, with a supersonic air-gun? So, for example, suppose a supersonic air-gun is more accurate than a sub-supersonic one, at say 25 yards, at what point does it become less accurate than a comparable sub-supersonic gun?
Speed may matter if you want a pellet to reach a certain distance, with accuracy, quicker, for whatever reason.
Victor
I’ve been reading every day, at least once. But my bad back put me down flat and dopey for 3 straight days. Can you imagine me willingly going 3 days w/o pulling a trigger??? And I have a deadline of 6pm tonight on an article on radiological terror for Jane’s, so I haven’t been writing on blogs. OK, ‘nuf excuses.
You would have to tell me more about the pellet before I could begin to calculate the deceleration. For openers, what’s the ballistic coefficient *at supersonic speeds*? The mass and diameter of the pellet are fixed, but the drag coefficient changes very rapidly in that speed regime. And it’s true: I’m a particle physics guy with nuclear and a teensy bit of space experience. Not a fluid dynamicist.
It is certainly true that accuracy goes all to hell as the pellet transitions from super- to subsonic. Note, just to make it more complicated, the air velocity past the pellet is not uniform. It’s moving faster in some places than others. This is probably part of the buffeting and a cause of the lack of accuracy (and possible tumbling).
Gotta go earn some money.
Oh, I see I missed something. As long as the pellet is clearly supersonic the accuracy isn’t likely to differ much from the same pellet subsonic. The transition is where things go to hell.
There’s a lever effect too: Suppose the transition occurred 1 pellet length from the target; the changed trajectory wouldn’t much matter. If it occurred 10 meters from the target, it might not matter too much. If it happened before the half way point, the inaccuracy goes way up.
Pete,
So part of the answer is that it does matter whether you’re slowing down from supersonic to sub-supersonic, versus just slowing down from a sub-supersonic speed to some slower speed. In other words, something dramatic happens that will cause excessive instability, right?
I guess what I’m trying to get at is, can an air-rifle that fires at supersonic speeds be as accurate as one that isn’t supersonic beyond, say, 50 or 75 yards. I read a review for one of the Bengamen Nitro Piston guns that fires at up to 1500 fps, where the guy said that he can hunt and make kills of small animals at 100 yards consitently. He didn’t use PBA ammo, but he did use something that he chronied at 1200 fps.
It seems that the sooner a pellet transitions down below supersonic things get messy. But that would depend on much much faster than supersonic the pellet started out at. Obviously, it would also depend on other characteristics of the pellet, like weight, and aerodynamics.
I’ll obviously have to by two Nitro Piston guns, one supersonic, and one sub-supersonic, and do my own accuracy tests. Whoo-hoo!
I don’t want to call anybody any names, but I would be hugely surprised if the guy actually can get that kind of accuracy at that kind of range with a pellet that starts out 100 f/sec faster than the speed of sound. But then again, we don’t know what pellet he used and in particular there’s little reason to believe that his chrony is accurate… Those cheap little chronographs don’t have the feel of precision timing devices, if you ask me. If I had been doing the shooting, I would have opted for a heavier pell with a reasonably low drag coefficient. One hundred yards is a long way to hit a couple of inch target without a rest, at least I don’t think I could do it off hand and repeatably.
Don’t know what a ‘small animal’ is either, nor how many shots it took.
I make my living being a skeptic…
Pete,
That’s OK. It’s good to be skeptical. That’s why my questions were along the lines of what is possible. I believe he used a heavy pellet, and it probably was low drag. If I can get more detail, I’ll let you know.
However, I was extremely curious about the idea that something anomolous happens when deccelerating down from supersonic. I know that there is a shockwave when breaking the sound barrier, and I remember the X-14 having stability issues when it went too fast, but issues with decceleration, I did not know.
I guess another thing that I was concerned about was the blanket belief that shooting supersonic is absolutely worse, in terms of accuracy. This implies that everyone buying an air-rifle that shoots supersonic is wasting their time and money.
But then again, some people just want more bang for their buck, literally, and quality isn’t so important. Reminds me of the hi-fi industry. They know that young people of a certain age range will buy speakers that are loud and bright, failing to consider things like listening fatigue. You could more easily sell something that blows your socks off in 5 minutes, and something that is extremely accurate and neutral. That would take hours to determine. Sales people can’t or won’t spend that kind of time with a customer. Not something the marketing people favor.
Victor
The entire “transonic” region from 0.8 to 1.2x speed of sound is turbulent to some degree — so I don’t think it is the transition, per se, that causes trouble. However, a projectile that starts out just sub-sonic is only going to experience “half” (loosely rendered) the instability that one going from above the transonic region to below.
For anyone short of a rocket scientist to calculate hyper-transonic to subsonic deceleration rate for _pellets_, I would propose that the BC when supersonic and transonic is almost certainly lower than when subsonic (where it is applicable), probably less than half, but that is just a guess. Even if you use the full BC for a _pellet_, it is going to slow down incredibly fast at supersonic velocities, because it depends upon drag for stabilization. Going to spin stabilization requires a lot of changes, and makes the projectile less safe at ranges where diabolos are harmless.
I would say that Pete has the right take on the character shooting small animals at 100 yards. Its possible, just barely, but only under really good conditions.
BG,Pete i am not rocket scientist (suprise,suprise) in fact i obey rules of physic only when i have to 🙂 -so i’ll make it simple becouse this supersonic thing is too much of remeinder on Queen “Don’t stop me now” so then my opinion is this (correct me please if i am wrong) -i don’t think that pellet size and shape is adequate to sustain this kind of speed and i also think that if you breake sound barrier your air gun would make a noise like a fire weapon -nobody whant’s that (i think )
Milan,
You are correct on both counts. If you even take a look at pellet velocity starting at something reasonable like 900fps, you will see it takes a nosedive pretty quickly. Since pellets rely on drag to stabilize them, they have to have a lot of it. Personally, I think even 50 yards is pushing the limits for common pellet designs used to hunt. 35 yards and below is where I think they are most effective and accurate, esp. from a springer, though some pellets and PCP’s may be able to do better. One thing to keep in mind is that most people (including myself) are lousy at estimating range — so one man’s 100 yard shot may be another’s 40 yard shot. I’m constantly reminded of this when people from civilization visit me — they will look at a distance that I know is 100 yards and estimate something totally ridiculous, some will even argue that they can’t walk that far :).
I poked around a little and came up with this from chairgun….
Closest thing I could find to 12 gr was the .22 silver bear at 12.5gr.
Starting out at 1300fps it drops to 1100 fps in a whopping 15yds.
Pretty obvious that light pellets with a poor BC are going to fall on their face very early in flight.
Most people with fast rifles will tell you that even with heavy pellets you need to slow down to 850-950 fps range for best accuracy.
Then a subjective thing…..
What will you accept for accuracy? Only the best, or is there some limit you can live with?
Of course this changes from gun to gun and pellet to pellet. Some guns handle a particular pellet better at higher or lower velocities than other guns do.
Wish I could find some BC numbers for those very light pot metal rat droppings that are what a lot of manufacturers use to rate their velocities. I am not going to switch barrels or risk my chrono to calculate them myself.
twotalon
I’m actually surprised it stays supersonic that long… 😉 But going through the transsonic buffeting at (on average) 7.5 yard from the muzzle out of 100 yards flight means that even a tiny angular error when the pellet stabilizes at a subsonic speed will shift the POI a long and random distance from the aim point.
I think what we’re seeing here is the air rifle equivalent of the pixel race in digital cameras: there is one figure of merit that the public is sold on; in this case muzzle velocity. Every manufacturer of air guns tries to optimize his guns to excel on the one number, and to heck with another figure of merit, such as group size at some typical distance.
I know I’m weird on this; I really only own match guns, and all I care about is group size at 10 m. If I had a way to shoot out of doors conveniently, I would probably go in for field target too, but the county won’t let me. So muzzle V is irrelevant to me. However, an all-round air shooter probably needs to optimize accuracy, speed, and energy-on-target all at once. I don’t think you can make a single air rifle that is the best, simultaneously, on all three, so it’s hard work to decide which specs mean the most to you. Probably the best thing to do is to have enough money to buy 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 guns so you can optimize pair-wise. Ah well, it would be nice to have more money and a longer range…
Pete,
Its worse than that. Transonic buffeting doesn’t stop at just below the speed of sound — it continues down to mach 0.8 or so (let’s say 900fps as a round number). Also, the calculation is almost certainly optimistic — the BC at supersonic and transonic speeds is quite likely to be much lower than the figure used by chairgun.
Absolutely. I didn’t want to complicate things by discussing the transsonic region where calculations really go to hell and where I have no intuition at all. But, of course, that’s one of the major sinks for accuracy in a decelerating bullet/pellet.
I won’t say anybody who buys a supersonic pellet rifle is wasting his money, but I can’t see what gains it brings other than bragging rights over something that isn’t brag-worthy.
pete
A new lady in your gun harem. She’s exceptionally beautiful and your favorite…until the next looker catches your eye 🙂
Edith
Edith,
Well, yeah!
B.B.
Awwwkward!
B.B.,
Congratulations on your deal on the century! Since it took two of your friends to help you I gotta think that it’s crew served and must be a Gatling gun.
Waited for five years–I guess we can wait for 7 days. How about some hints: what powers it, primarily a shooter or collectible, pistol, rifle or scatter gun?
Bruce
Bruce,
It’s a rifle. And that’s all I’m saying about it until next Friday.
B.B.
BB,
105mm recoilless rifles are described as ‘rifles’ too. Can you lift your new beauty with one hand or not?
Pete,
The 106mm recoilless rifle is called a rifle because its bore is rifled. The main gun on a U.S. battle tank used to be rifled and was also called a rifle in some instances, although cannon was the more appropriate term.
B.B.
We had both 105mm and 106mm RRs. I don’t think we have any left in service, but am not sure.
The USS Missouri’s guns are also referred to as 16 inch naval rifles, so the term is elastic and includes personal arms as well as (very large) crew-served ones. So again as to the one you bought: can you carry it with one hand??????
Pete,
Yes.
B.B.
B.B.,
The Tech Force 87 looks like a winner. I think that after your accuracy testing, I’ll have my sights on that one!
Regarding the Titan sold by PA, versus the Titan GP sold by Walmart, according to Crosman (and my own research) they are IDENTICAL. Furthermore, PA just downgraded the velocity claims to match that of the GP from 1000 fps to 950 fps. So there are no longer any discrepencies.
Regarding price, it is cheaper to buy from PA. PA’s price is $10 more but, shipping is free, and there is no sales tax. If you’re sales tax is say, 8%, then you’re looking at saving just under $5, plus the cost of gas, if you buy from PA. On the other hand, you don’t have to wait if you buy from Walmart, and they have a good return policy. Lust won’t let some of us wait. 🙂
I think it’s great that this hobby/sport makes us feel like a kid again!
Victor
Victor said…” I think it’s great that this hobby/sport makes us feel like a kid again!”
Man, you said it all there! I can’t think of any other pastime or hobby I have had where the time FLIES by with such enjoyment. Shooting these guns of course, but also the tech stuff and cleaning the guns and running the Chrony, etc, etc.
I lose three hours in a blink of the eye with this hobby, does that mean I’m aging faster too?, hope not!
Victor,
Yes, I had mentioned on your comments yesterday that I found out from Crosman that the correct velocity is 950 fps, not 1000.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Edith
Edith,
Thanks for also looking into this. I was primarily concerned because of what I read in some other blogs, regarding Walmart selling inferior but similar products. Many others on the internet have been wondering about this very thing – are they the same rifles? One person noted differences in a firearm that they saw at Walmart, versus what they owned, and that was extrapolated to apply to the Titan GP versus PA’s Titan.
I think that most of us have noticed that manufacturers change the name completely of products that they to one vendor versus another. In this case, the names didn’t change much, and then there was that detail of 950 fps versus 1000 fps. Made me wonder, that’s all.
I just wanted to clear the air on this one.
Thanks again,
Victor
While I don’t appreciate the fact that the Wal in Walmart stands for “Without American Labor”, I do appreciate the fact that Walmart does provide a needed service consistently across the country. With that, I didn’t think it was fair to generalize that anything Walmart must be cheaper (of lower quality) than elsewhere.
How to load a Benjamin Marauder magazine
I’m posting this again with a header so future generations can find it. “Vanity thy name is CJr”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY5mfitZ_UA
-CJr
Chuck
Now I know what you sound like… fiddleyfingers! Great video, but you should have outsourced the hand-modeling to Edith.
SL,
I don’t know whose hands those are. Mine sure don’t look like that from my angle. And when I look in the mirror I see a full head of hair.
-CJr
Chuck3ey great informative video ,now let me correct you “Vanity thy name is chuck3ey” well done man 😉
milan,
I am the victim of non-standard security rules. I get a userid I can remember and then some programmer/web developer decides it’s not unique enough. Now I have to have ten different uids and 50 different passwords.
-CJr (alais Chuck3ey)
When you load ,you shoot,when you shoot this is what happens (with a bullet) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg&feature=player_embedded#! i am sure that somebody post this before but never mind.
Milan
You’re right, it’s been posted before but I think it could be posted once a month and still be fun to watch. It’s a great vid.
I must also add that I think your english as improved a lot (of course english not being my current language I’m not sure but it seems better to me) since you first started posting here, congrats.
Speaking of old posters here… anyone seen Rikib ? How about Ryan ? Are you guys still here ?
J-F
J-F what can i do i would take this slow mo thing and make desktop wallpaper,it is poetry in destruction 😉 !English is a beautiful language J-F -thank you ,and i would also like to say THANKS to all of you guys especially BB and Edith for this great blog with great people and a chance that they gave me to be a part of it ,to steal a moment of their time and force you guys to cope with my bad english 😉 🙂 J-F Rikib is still around i hope that he will post something today but also i would like to here something from Ryan ,c’mon Ryan Canada C-S calling! 🙂 😉
Milan
Rikib is usually lurking around here somewhere, most often with a good quote (or two.) I toss him an email every so often, and he pays me back in spades with hilarious emails that he forwards. Winter is scratching at the door, so his CO2 pistol/carbine soon won’t be shooting powerfully enough to be satisfying, at least outdoors anyway.
It would be good to hear from Ryan, if he is around. Ryan? You out there?
It was great to see Orin back on the blog. Or, as I refer to him, ‘ninja squirrel assassin’.
I almost bought a Slavia 631 not long ago, but someone else was willing to pay more than me. 🙁
Oh well, maybe next time. Also I saw a travel show recently where the host, Rick Steve toured the Croatia-Serbia area. He gave a lot of the semi-recent history of the region, which was very informative to me, because I did not understand much of it. It was beautiful, but tragic, as the toll of war always is.
J-F is right. Your English gets better all the time.
SlingingLead
Thank you, too bad for 631 but now you can set your sights on Slavia 634 which is every bit as accurate as 631 😉
You guys wanted an update so here goes. I took BB’s advice and ordered a LH Pro Sport in walnut stock and .22 version (BB said he always recommends this for hunting and I will try to forget the velocity data I reviewed that compares the .22 to the .177. I like twotalon’s analogy about the slow moving brick so I will assume that there is some intrinsic advantage using the .22 cal. pellet for small game hunting at approximately 20 yard distances -Orrin, I will use my Independence for distances greater than 20 yards providing I can keep the shot within a 1″ circle). After all, I agree with BB, if you become fascinated with a certain airgun the ONLY cure is to own that gun by getting thoroughly acquainted with it. Anyway, I’m very excited about getting this gun and I was told by the kind lady (Richelle) at PyramydAir that it will probably take a couple of months so I plan to thoroughly enjoy this journey. Brian, my “handle” is FX Fanatic because the first airgun I purchased was an FX Cyclone which I fell in love with. The second was an FX Ranchero with LH custom grips by Steve Corcoran. The third was an Air Arms TX200 Mark III .177 cal. LH walnut stock after reading BB’s raving reviews. I purchased the FX Independence when it first became available to the U.S. instead of the Diana 56 TH. A month ago I traded the Cyclone + money for the Diana 56 TH. That’s why my handle is FX Maniac. My preference is FX pcps. I am interested in spring piston airguns because I want to learn to shoot these guns using the “artillery hold” as so aptly described by BB. Anyway, thanks for all the input and I feel I have made a good decision and I will not purchase any more airguns unless I trade existing ones. This hobby is becoming very expensive.
A couple months! Eeeee Gads! That’s a long time to wait for a review.
-CJr
FX Fanatic
“Anyway, thanks for all the input and I feel I have made a good decision and I will not purchase any more airguns unless I trade existing ones.”
Sounds like you have excellent taste and it would be a shame if you quit accumulating more fine airguns, but, best of luck to you. I think you’ll need it.
Fx Fantastic,
Earlier in this blog someone asked how you know when you have enough guns. The answer was, if you can count them you don’t have enough.
-CJr
So you know when you DON’T have enough but there doesn’t seem to be a way to know when you have enough or when you have too many…
So we can only assume that there is no such thing as enough airguns…
and since you can never have enough you probably can’t get too many either !
JF
J-F,
How do you know when you have too many guns? How do you know if you have too much money? Same question…or at least that’s what I’ve been told 🙂
Edith
So it’s only down to a question of storage… For both.
If only I could get my hands on a little more of the second I could buy more of the first 🙂
JF
CJr,
I’d forgotten the, “if you can count them…”. Thanks for the reminder. You all most got me to pull the trigger on the .25 that I’ve been lusting after.
Bruce
I just counted all my airguns… So I need to get more… Oh well 🙂
I am now the proud owner of a Diana Model 5V. Now I have to take off a shoe to be able to count all my collection. I’ll write this up shortly. Right now, I’m letting the seals soak in oil! I’d say it’s 80, maybe 85% due to some pitting on the barrel from hand prints.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
I looked at your photos and you got a fine collectible gun. Get some Ballistol on that rust as soon as you can.
B.B.
Sorry to change the subject. I have an old Benjamin 312 that I had rebuilt and shoots hard. I’d like to put a peep site on it for better accuracy. Any thing out there I could use? Mike
mike,
After being on this blog a while it becomes obvious that there isn’t any subject that can’t be changed. We welcome any question on any subject and eventually we’ll get back to the original one. Sometimes it gets discussed for days.
Here is a Benjamin 312 like what mike is talking about:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=193356374
-CJr
Mike,
That peep sight that Chuck pointed you to is home-built, I’m pretty sure. But it does use the screws that are already on your gun, so consider having something like that made. Otherwise, you’ll have to drill and tap the receiver.
B.B.
Sad news at the CJr ranch. My IZH-46m just broke. I haven’t put more than a hundred pellets through it because I’ve been busy making left-hand grips for it in order to be able to shoot it.
I was shooting it tonight and on my first group of five I was all over the place but on the second group of five I put them all in the 9 ring with one in the 10. I was so proud. Then, on the next group I couldn’t get even one shot out. As soon as I close the breach the gun fires all by it self before it gets closed. I suspect the trigger is jammed in the firing position and the trigger is canted way to the right. It looks like maybe one side of the pin that holds the trigger is broken. Has anyone encountered this situation before?
Argh, it’s Saturday and I can’t even talk to PA until Monday.
-CJr
CJr,
I know you’ve though of and discarded my only idea on your problem, but I’ve got to throw it out there for your consideration.. Here goes: Isn’t the trigger adjustable for cant, twist or something like that, which makes it my question–is it simply the fact that perhaps the trigger’s adjustment is out of whack.
Didn’t want you to think your were all alone with no one trying to help out. I hope this is the answer!
Bruce
Mr B,
I’m taking your advice under consideration. Right now I see no cant adjustment, only forward and back. This pistol is acting very strange. Where before it was firing before I could get the breach closed now it will close but upon firing air escapes past the seal with a pop. I replaced the seal with one they included in the kit bit it didn’t help. I don’t think the breach lock is engaging all the way.
I’m going to have to continue this tomorrow as my frustration level is getting the best of me and maybe a fresh start tomorrow will turn up something obvious.
I do appreciate your help. Don’t worry, I will not be insulted by you stating may seem obvious. I am not that experienced nor that arrogant. I’m just a little bit of both.
Tomorrow, we’ll see what rest can do.
-CJr
Chuck,
I have to agree with Bruce. I think the trigger is out of adjustment, as well.
B.B.
Mr B/BB,
I fixed the escaping-air-with-a-pop problem by noticing and putting the air transfer port o-ring back in. Apparently it had come loose somehow and fallen on the floor. The gun has two o-rings in the breach mechanism, one at the end for the barrel and one underneath for the transfer port.
I still don’t know what happened to cause the gun to fire prematurely in the first place. I don’t see how the xfer port o-ring could cause that.
I am back to “normal” now but flinch every time I close the breach, expecting it to fire.
-CJr
CJr,
Up and shooting again. Good for you! I knew you’d figure it out.
Bruce
Mr B,
Don’t leave yourself (and BB you either) out of the equation. Your answers help get the thought process going and on the right track.
It looks like what I’ve been calling the breach mechanism is actually called the bolt in the manual. So, it’s the bolt that has two o-rings in it. One forward to match up with the barrel and seal the pellet and one below to seal the gap around the transfer port between the receiver and the bottom of the bolt.
BTW, does anyone know the solution to the trigger cant? I believe the trigger is machined to provide the cant to the right for you righties. Would be nice to get it to slant toward the trigger finger of us lefties.
-CJr
Chuck,
I’m glad you got your pistol running again.
As for the trigger cant, I just looked at my 46 and the way the trigger blade is dovetailed to the bar it’s on, there is no cant adjustment. The cant angle is extremely slight, but I’m thinking there must be an IZH 46 left-hand trigger that would slant the other way. It would be the only possible solution, the way I see it.
B.B.
BB,
Thanks for checking on that for me. I have adjusted the trigger all the way to the rear and I measured from the center of the trigger blade to the center of the hole below the trigger (which would be the center of the pistol) and it is 3/8″. Not much, and doesn’t seem to bother my sight picture or comfort zone, that I can tell. The angle doesn’t seem to change any by moving the trigger forward.
Still, it would be nice if I could get it straight up or slanted left.
-CJr
You would think that the trigger should be adjustable left and right; let me look at my own Izh-46 in the morning. I had very much the same kind of premature, very flaky discharge with my Izzy when it was brand new and I didn’t know it well. Took a good bit of a while before I realized how sensitive the trigger second stage is, and that I was actually touching the trigger with my index finger when I closed the bolt down so, just as in your case, it discharged “prematurely” and dangerously. I called the place where I bought the gun (PA didn’t have them then), and they told me to keep my danged and blasted finger out of the trigger guard until I raised the gun to fire. It’s easy to put a finger (or something) in the way from underneath where the cocking lever catches.
Note: this may, of course, not be your problem. BTW, it really matters to store the gun with the port open!
OMG, pete, thanks for that storage tip! I never thought of that. Must leave bolt open! Now I can see where it could deform the o-rings.
About touching the trigger, I thought I might have done that accidentally so I became very careful to stay away from it but it still fired. I don’t have a trigger scale so I have no idea what the pull is. I do know that I like it very much. I’ll have to get a gauge to make sure I’m within competition specs.
I don’t see what mechanical process could cause it to fire just by closing the bolt unless the trigger was adjusted way,way too light and it was vibration on closing that did it. It didn’t seem like it was vibration. Maybe the bolt comes in contact with the sear at some point? I backed off the trigger adjustment a couple turns because it looked like it was up about as far as it could go, maybe a couple threads left to go. It hasn’t happen again, yet. I put 60 shots through it last night without incident but I still flinch when I close the bolt (I know, what a wimp).
Incidentally, of the 60 shots all but 10 were in the black. Most were grouped about an inch left and a quarter inch high of the 10 ring. So, I think I might have fun with this. I can tell my sight picture is getting steadier all the time. Fatigue is definitely a major issue with me. And holding my breath for more than 5 seconds really affects accuracy.
My lefty grips are working wonderfully. The only problem I’m having with them is the palm shelf get a lot of pressure on it when I cock the gun and it will move down a bit. I need to find a way to make that more secure.
-CJr
Got new Weihrauch breech seals for my .177 HW97K from Boris at PA. Different design than the original seals.These look more like a “grommet” with a solid face on both sides and a relief groove all the way around at center. Material is the opaque white, slightly soft stuff, maybe delrin? The seal installs very easily and I can tell that it is more resilient ( has more memory ) than the original which makes for a better seal under compression. The lock-up or compressed condition feels much firmer and the final effort to close the cocking arm has a bit more resistance than before, which is good (tighter seal). Best $4 (each) I have spent in some time.
Chrony was 879 fps avg before changing seal, 891 fps avg with new seal, both with RWS Superdomes. Guess I had some leakage?
Shot for about 3 hrs and 200 rounds this afternoon, mostly empty Co2 cartridges at 30 meters, man I love this rifle.
That’s interesting. You had higher chrono numbers than I did in the first place, and there is no closing resistance on mine except the pressure needed to click the cocking lever in place. I also have to force my fingers between the cocking lever and the barrel to cock it.
Might try shimming mine later today to see what happens.
Is the firing behavior any different?
twotalon
I’m guessing that there was some, slight leakge at the old seal as the face of the seal was a litlle mashed and had impressions in it from the breech face. My 97 has always shot in the 880’s – 890’s fps and low 900 with 7 gram wadcutters. Only slight change to POI almost not noticeable.
12 fps improvement is not huge but is going in the right direction.
Based on web comments, it seems ther are “batches” or large groups of 97’s out there that shoot at different velocities. By that I mean the manufacturing batches, say from one year to another. This may be more of a spring and main seal batch issue than mfg. tolerances or… it could be all the above.
Guys who swear they shoot high 800’s with heavy pellets and others who shoot high 700’s fps.
We’ll never know for sure, as the web is hardly a controlles study!
I have learned to not believe a whole lot of what I read on the web. Too many contradictions and wild claims.
Mine was shooting about where the gun that Mac tested for B.B. was One Maccari kit later (just spring and guides) it picked up a little but nothing really significant.
I also try not to let the chrono fool me and I don’t try to fool the chrono.
twotalon
I shimmed mine with a Talon breech o-ring. Required some closing force, but had no change in MV. Put it back the way it was.
I guess there was no problem and it shoots the way it shoots.
twotalon
Might be off one day next week to do a bit of field shooting.
I got an invite off my mate’s Steve and Andy with their shotguns again.
No more huffing and puffing round fields.They have built a ‘hide’ and got some proper decoys.
(Good idea,I nearly died of exhaustion last time we went out.)
I will take my air rifle as well this time and give it a shoot at longer distances than at home.
Steve will get bored sitting in a ‘hide’ after about twenty minutes,so I wont have to wait too long to set up my targets(bean cans).lol
You can be assured,no wildlife will be harmed in the production of this expedition.
‘City Slicker’s’ has nothing on us three amateurs 🙂
DaveUK
B.B.
Well, it’s time to report.
First of all, I’d like to comment on my new tune-up (or, rather, tune-down) of my CFX. I de-powered it from 20J to 17J installed rod-forward gas spring and moved on to light pellets (JSB Exacts in 4,52, as LW barrel seems a little bit tight for 4,53, stealing about 7 m/s).
It all went just as I planned: smoother firing behavior, albeit a bit harder to cock, as spring is pumped up a bit higher, and lots of comfort, without kicking. I cannot say it greatly affected accuracy @25 m (as there was plenty of it before, same 8-10 mm in relaxed mode), but 50 m showed up its true abilities. Shooting 50m turned out to be more of a piece of cake than a challenge. I guess kicking was the issue – out of 10 targets was able to hit a 13 mm bullseye with all five pellets _twice_. I consider this a huge leap for myself. Other 8 targets were perforated with dull 18-25 mm groups, I guess I have to control my emotions better. Another interesting thing – horizontal spread just disappeared. I think this is due to lesser mass moving during firing cycle and less kick.
Second, B.B. I promissed you a description of MP-562. My next comment, as I’m afraid, I depleted sign limit in this one.
duskwight,
Well, it seems that was a good modification for you to make, no? Smoother shooting and better grouping at distance is always a worthy goal.
B.B.
B.B.
Oh yes, it’s a thing to race for 🙂
It seems that I’m working up a sort of database for myself, at least for JSB pellets on LW barrel: speeds/weight/grouping.
I feel, and other people confirm that there’s some sort of “border” circa 270 m/s, with dropdown in stability above, at least for JSBs. It must be pure aerodynamics I guess, or, maybe, because more power blows the pellet up, so it becomes worse in means of repeatability and aerodynamics.
So it seems to me that perfect precision springer must be somewhat as close as possible to this border at the muzzle, but not above.
I hope I’ll be able to experiment more on speed with my JW-like project, as I made a power regulator. Right now it’s in a process of complete overhaul before completion – catching bugs and solving troubles I didn’t think of. Grows up to be a nice gun 😉
duskwight
Duskwight,
Good work. I did the same basic thing to my 36-2 chinese underlever and it made it significantly more fun and easier to shoot accurately. A good (even mediocre perhaps in my case) heavy underlever with a moderate detune is hard to beat.
All right, some words on MP-562. I was unable to make my own photos, due to a very low light on the range, so I’ll use links to photos from talks.guns.ru and other sources, with all respect to their owners and my apologies for the quality on some of them.
Now, let’s get acquainted. Overall it looks and feels like a REAL THING. Official photo from Izhmech
http://baikalinc.ru/res_ru/0_value_116153_207.jpg
Then (with all the respect) a photo from Ignat http://www.iguns.ru/Articles/Rifles/MP562K/p05.jpg showing the way it is sold.
So, what is it?
Basically it is a MP-661 Drozd stripped of all its plastic coverings and places inside a deactivated WWII era PPSh SMG, its 71-round drum magazine version. Later models were produced with 35-rounds curved box (“banana” or “horn”) magazine. If you have further interested, read here, it’s my good acquaintance Max Popenker’s site: http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg02-e.htm
Now some words for BATF or FBI guys, as I remember them to be very picky. If a weapon is deactivated Russian way, the only way to turn this complicated collection of metal parts into firearm is to buy a new firearm. Competent guys here wear their shoulder boards not just for fun, they know well what “Russian resourcefulness” is, so they don’t take chances. It is utterly, completely and irreversibly turned into an airgun.
Now, let’s see what we have inside, and what differs it from Drozd.
First of all, some words about its “heart”.
Basically, Izh doesn’t differ much from Crosman in its building philosophy – they use a well-tried parts as wide as possible, so MP-562’s firing valve doesn’t differ much from 661’s, which in turn descends from 654 “makarov”‘s. See for yourselves:
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003739/3739183.jpg
And on this photo, again from Ignat’s you can see them together – 652’s is a bit wider:
http://www.iguns.ru/Articles/Rifles/MP562K/p22.jpg
You can see, that there is a CO2 expansion volume (black) It helps to keep CO2 pressure more stable on bursts. Also, the triangular piece of metal (one must put it on the CO2 cartridge) works as a sort of heat capacitor, as CO2 bottle cools down _tremendously_ fast, so it helps to keep it warm longer.
And all around it, my friends, is THE MAGAZINE. Machined from metal, it holds 70 rounds, that are fed by a spring and some balls of bigger diameter that never leave the groove. Speedloader is, of course, included. This photo is from IzhMech official site http://baikalinc.ru/res_ru/0_value_116156_204.jpg and see here from another POV http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003739/3739178.jpg
What is really interesting and new about this one is that this mag on insertion pulls the barrel back towards itself for 3-5mm, to give better sealing. And it really works. That’s a view from above, on to magazine head through brass ejection window.
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003739/3739221.jpg
Other innards are quite boring. You know the Drozd – you know the 652. So there’s the same solenoid and striker piece:
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003739/3739223.jpg
And almost the same FCS: http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003739/3739225.jpg Please mind – _do not_ try to jerk what appears to be the bolt handle 🙂 It’s just a switch. Fire selector is cleverly disguised as a real weapon’s safety (knob in front of the trigger).
6 AA-type batteries are inserted into hollowed-out butt like that, so you’ll have to remove a buttplate: http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/003820/3820783.jpg
So, that’s all about interior.
Let’s get to performance.
Loading procedure seems to be quite “real”, like in PPSh.
Remove the drume and take off its cover.
First you’ve got to cock the feeder ratchet and put it onto stop, then connect a speedloader, shake the magazine a bit until you see it filled properly, disconnect a speedloader and let the feeder ratchet go free.
Then you have to install CO2 cart (and heat capacitor) and put back magazine cover.
Push the drum into your 652 and we’re ready to have fun. Mind that 652 likes steel, but can also eat very good lead BBs, and keep in mind, that not all BBs are good and uniform, so choose wisely and choose only the best.
The gun eats CO2 quickly. No, it EATS _QUICKLY_! Busrst mode freezes cartridge very quick and depletes it fast. Heat capacitor helps to keep it warm longer, and save more gas, so it’s a must to use. Making pauses and prefering single-fire to bursts one achieve one cart-one drum ratio, with spay-style it goes down to 50 shots per cart.
Speeds are quite CO2-like – 120-150 m/s with steel BBs, speed is directly dependent on CO2 cartridge condition.
Grouping is also predictable – about 30 mm circle @ 10 m.
So, nothing to fancy, but… It has one true huge advantage.
It gives you an incredible feeling, just to hold it – it’s heavy, it smells with war, and it’s real deal.
duskwight
duskwight,
That is totally incredible! That is a real piece of work! That is a collectors dream (at least this ones dream). Excellent write-up. Thanks for taking the time and for including all those picture links.
I love your last sentence: “It gives you an incredible feeling, just to hold it – it’s heavy, it smells with war, and it’s real deal.”
-CJr
CJr,
It actually does smell 🙂
My Grandpa keeps his battleknife, made of k98k bayonet on his table as a letter-opener. He fought in WWII first as a soldier, then a commander (from private to lieutenant) of frontal recon/sabotage group. So that piece of steel had seen some German and Finnish throats and innards. It really smells with war and violence, so strong that it is somewhat frightening.
Same is with PPSh. It’s not an elegant machine, a deadly steel toy, like modern firearm, it’s more of a club – brutal, fierce, ugly, made for a big farmer’s hand. And it smells with war – or just old powder, steel and grease.
duskwight
duskwight,
Don’t you wonder who the original owner was? What stories he might tell?
-CJr
CJr
I wish I could hear the voices of the things.
I guess a typical SMG’s story may be like that – made at some small factory, converted for military use, then issued to some boy of 18 or a man of early 50’s. I hope that was its only user and he loved his trusted SMG. Then lots of flame, dirt, smoke, dust and lots of rounds spent, and last bursts – into the blue, somewhere in Germany, Czechoslovakia or Austria, or Manchuria. And then – long rest inside a box with 3 more mates in some warehouse.
duskwight
duskwight,
No need to apologise for the photos. Thank you for your time. Now all we need is for PA to bring them in. The coolness factor is off the chart!
Bruce
duskwight,
Now that was a blog, my friend! And your links included the pictures.
Well done!
The Pyramyd AIR team is researching whether they can bring them into the U.S. Nobody ever said that our ATF was friendly or logical, so it is a long shot.
Thank you for all that information.
B.B.
duskwight,
Pyramyd AIR is being told these guns are not yet ready for sale. They asked how you saw one.
They are interested in following through on this.
B.B.
B.B.
Ha-ha, you know, my KGB ID can do wonders, comrade Pelletievsky! 🙂
Well, maybe they are not ready to sell it out of the country, but 562s are quite sold inside the country. Price is somewhat around $330.
duskwight
Perhaps it’s a little late in the day/week to post this and expect any kind of response, but I’m thinking most regulars follow the comments through RSS anyway…
I had previously asked Chuck (CJr) if he would be interested in a temporary trade – his .22 Marauder for my .177 TX200. Unfortunately, as he explained in an e-mail, the gun import/export laws in Illinois are not overly friendly, so it would cost him much more than just postage.
I wanted to open up the same offer to anyone else on this blog. B.B./Edith, if I’m crossing any etiquette lines here, please feel free to delete. I just don’t feel comfortable posting an offer like this elsewhere, like on the classifieds.
There are no real airgun stores in Las Vegas, at least not the kind that I can walk into and test fit a new prospect. I don’t currently own any PCP’s, but I’d like that to change. Unfortunately, the transition from self-contained powerplant to PCP is an expensive one. I suppose I could take advantage of PA’s 30-day return policy and send something back if it doesn’t quite do it for me, but I feel that’s just a waste of both of out time and money.
I have a nice, home-tuned .177 TX200 (Vortek kit and Maccari lubes/seals) that I’d like to offer up to anyone willing to let me test one of the following PCP’s in return: .22 or .25 Marauder, Evanix AR6 Shrouded, or .22 Evanix Rainstorm. This offer wouldn’t make sense unless you are really interested in trying out a TX200, as the shipping/insurance alone will probably cost us both at least $25 each way. I have other guns to offer as bargaining chips, but none as nice or enticing as the TX, so I won’t even bother mentioning them. I told Chuck I’d need a hand pump, but since I’m fairly certain the Darkside is drawing me in, I’ll probably end up purchasing my own anyway. Besides, the 4-stage FX is calling my name. I don’t suppose PA plans on stocking those any time soon, do they?
It won’t hurt my feelings if nobody is interested. I just thought this might be a good opportunity for me and somebody else to gain knowledge/experience from a fairly low risk and inexpensive trial run. If anyone is interested, please feel free to send me an e-mail at OrinHerndon@yahoo.com. Thanks.
– Orin