Peep sights: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

This report covers:

My first encounter
First encounter with accurate target rifles
History
How peep sights are used
Use with sporting airguns
An open note to airgun manufacturers
Other good sporting peeps
Some airguns came with peeps
Summary

Oh, boy. This is a subject that will get your juices flowing! Today BB starts talking about peep sights.

My first encounter

I was interested in guns as a kid, but didn’t know much about them. My father owned a Benjamin 107 BB/pellet pistol that I saw him shoot exactly once into a large tree in our back yard. I was about 5 when I saw that and I was fascinated, but he didn’t offer to let me shoot it or even hold it. He died when I was 9. About a year later my mother enrolled me in an NRA course that taught me how to shoot. That was where I learned about using the triangulation technique to teach people to shoot, and that technique has been of great value all my shooting life. If you are interested in that technique, read this report.

First encounter with accurate target rifles

The NRA used Winchester 52s and Springfield M1922s to train us. I found the Winchester easy to shoot and quite accurate. Both rifles had peep sights and that’s what I want to start talking about today.

History

When I researched the history of the peep sight online I discovered that almost nobody has a clue when they first were used. Neither do I and some of the references I found were to articles I have written. My guess is they are far older than what I know, so I will tell you only what I do know for sure.

Buffalo hunters used tang-mounted peep sights during the American buffalo slaughter that ran from 1870-1880. In 1884 the Springfield Arsenal started installing the Buffington rear sight on their single-shot rifle that is known as the Trapdoor. Developed by Lieutenant Colonel Adelbert Buffington, this leaf rear sight combined a peep sight with a conventional notch and was not only graduated for the high trajectory of the .45 caliber bullet, but also for the drift of the bullet to the left because of the way it spun in flight.

Buffington sight
The Buffington rear sight from 1884 was first put on the Trapdoor Springfield. It was later used on the Krag and Springfield bolt-action rifles, as well

The Buffington is positioned forward of the receiver, where it takes good eyes to use. But most peep sights are positioned closer to the eye — sometimes too close, as I will address later.

How peep sights are used

The peep sight is considered the easiest non-optical sight to use, as well as the one with the greatest potential for precision. But, you’ll get arguments from many about it being the easiest. Shooters have told me they can’t use them because their eyes don’t work that way. Well, yes they do. They just don’t know how a peep sight works.

The peephole is just there to look through — nothing else. It doesn’t need to be aligned with anything. Just look through it. It’s the front sight that matters. Place the front sight on the target while looking through the peephole and shoot. Your eye does the rest automatically. Your eye searches for the brightest light when looking through an aperture (a peephole) and that is in the center of the peephole. Your brain causes you to adjust your head and sighting eye until the image you see is brightest. But don’t try to disprove this!

Peep graphic
This graphic confuses people. It is correct, but people think this is what they are supposed to see when they look through a peep sight. It isn’t!

Some people are on a crusade to belittle peep sights and can “prove” they don’t work by moving their heads around on the stock to introduce parallax. They aren’t proving anything. They simply are not using the peep sight correctly. Forget the peephole! Just look through it as if the front sight is the only sight you have. The peep takes care of itself.

real peep picture
This is what you should see when looking through a peep. I have grayed out the edge of the peephole, as it should appear to you when your eye gets close to the hole. Forget the peephole and just concentrate on the front sight and target. 

Use with sporting airguns

Several days ago a reader asked about getting a peep sight for his HW30S breakbarrel. A light sporting airgun like that is an ideal place for a good peep. When he posted the question I wanted to recommend the Mendoza peep that I feel is a great bargain. But unfortunately it is no longer listed at Pyramyd Air, and I feel certain that it’s no longer made. It was a good basic peep that was very affordable and also adjusted low enough for some air rifles that cannot use other peeps.

Mendoza peep rear
The Mendoza peep sight had an 11mm base and fit many sporting air rifles as well as many .22 rimfires!

Mendoza peep front
The front side of the Mendoza peep.

An open note to airgun manufacturers

You manufacturers always ask me what people want. Well, the peep sight is something  that is very popular. But, use some innovation and make a peep that can also be used as an open sight if the shooter prefers. Then put it on a rifle that has a place near the eye for mounting the peep and another place farther from the eye for the sporting sight. That’s the sort of innovation the airgun community is looking for. The IZH-60 had such a sight and, though it has been gone from the market for 20 years,  people still talk about it today!

IZH-61-peep-rear
Here is an inexpensive peep sight that IZH designed to also be an open notch rear sight. 

IZH isn’t the only company to do this with a peep sight. Diana also did it many years before. 

Diana 50 rear sight
Here is the rear sight on a vintage Diana model 50 underlever rifle. The arrow points to the screw that is loosened to remove the peephole. This is an old version of this sight that has several variations.

Diana 50 peep off
And now it is an open sporting sight. Move it forward so the notch can be seen easily by your eye. Diana provided a forward dovetail base for this.

Diana also used a sporting pistol sight they mounted on their youth model 72 recoilless target rifle with a peep attachment. My point is — Diana knew that shooters who use non-optical sights like peeps. Once they learn how to use them, they become their favorite rear sight. Want to sell more airguns? Offer them with peep sights, and, better yet, with convertible peep/open sights.

Diana 72 peep
The rear sight on the Diana model 72 youth target rifle is a pistol sight that’s been converted to a peep!

Other good sporting peeps

Of all the sporting peep sights on the market, none is better known and recognized than the Williams peep. Beeman offered them for many years, as did Crosman (the S331 on the model 160 rifle), Sheridan and many others. Actually there are a great many different Williams peeps — differing because of the guns they are made for. This can cause someone new to the shooting sports some consternation because not only do you need a sight that works, you also need one that fits your air rifle! Some mount on the left side of the receiver, others mount on the right. And still others mount in the middle of the receiver.

Some airguns came with peeps

We know the Sheridan Supergrade came only with a peep sight. But it wasn’t the only air rifle that did. The Crosman model 107 and 108 (Town and Country) had one that is special. I show it here for the manufacturers to see how simple yet clever these sights can be.

Town and Country rear sight
The Crosman Town and Country multi-pump pneumatic rifle came with a rear peep sight that also incorporated a notched open sight. For shooters who want it all!

Summary

When I started writing this report about 6 hours ago I had no idea how large it would become. I haven’t even scratched the surface yet! I’m sure you readers will add even more things that I didn’t think of.

I don’t think today’s airgun manufacturers realize what a big opportunity they are missing by not offering peep sights on some of their rifles today. Robert Beeman knew and he sold the heck out of them! Isn’t it strange that Beeman thrived on selling top-end spring guns at high-ticket prices and yet today, a quarter-century later, so-called marketing “experts” are falling all over themselves to bring out airguns at the lowest possible cost? 

Guys — if you want to sell the steak you have to sell the sizzle! That’s what Dr. Beeman did so well. The money is out there. Tell them why they should spend it with you and buy your airgun. My gosh — if you start doing that you might start looking at the guns you sell from the customer’s point of view and begin to make things you can speak well of!

This is just an ending for this report. There is so much more to be said!

152 thoughts on “Peep sights: Part 1

  1. B.B.,

    Don’t forget the Daisy Model 25, which has a convertible peep – notch. Like a lot of folks, I find the aperture ever-so-slightly too small, so I enlarged it with a cone shaped knife sharpener I use as a needle file.

    Michael




      • BB: I have used Williams Peeps for years, and find them far easier to deal with on magnum springers than scopes simply because they have less mass and tend to be easier to keep in place despite the double recoil. My ’89 RWS Model 36 (made in WEST Germany!) has had a peep almost from day one and it can hit anything within its range. It was made even better with a Merit Aperture Disc (adjustable). The darker it gets, the larger I made the aperture, and vice versa.

        I taught my son to shoot and mounted a Williams Peep on his RWS Model 24J, and it shoots as well as the M-36, but without the “enthusiasm.”

        I purchased a RWS 340 N-Tech Luxus and mounted a Williams Peep on it, but ordered the low sight; which was the wrong one. Purchased a high Williams Peep that lacked the target knobs from P/A and then combined the two. It then followed in the thrall of its elder siblings.

        While I have UTG Leapers scopes on a couple of magnum springers and a Hawke on my new RWS 430L, at airgun ranges I’m just as happy with the peeps as the scopes! That’s especially true now that my cataract surgery is complete and my eyes have adjusted to post-surgical correction!

        I do ponder if the peeps are actually a bit better for precision within reasonable ranges than scopes! I wonder if the scope distracts me by literally giving me too much information in terms of my nystagmus (the nervous twitching endemic to our systems). The peep is slightly less revealing so the sight picture is more “stable” and it is easier to maintain concentration rather than become annoyed by watching the sight picture move around so much. Again, this is within reasonable airgun ranges. At greater distances, the scope wins hands down.

        It will be interesting to see this series develop. I hope to learn from it! It’s easier to have a master to teach than figure it out by years of trial and error! Thanks, Tom, for starting this series.


    • Michael,

      I use those flat, dual sided, diamond embedded “files” and the needle one to sharpen knives. Works perfect and the hand motion is much like using a file. Push into one side (pushing motion),.. flip blade and draw into blade (same action). You can get finer and finer and can use ones that are more worn out for a light back stropping. Maybe not the best but I like it. Like anything, you have to develop a fine feel for it.

      Chris


  2. B.B.,

    A question. I’ve always considered red/green dot sights to work with the eye in the same exact way as a peep sight, but I’ve never read that anywhere to my recollection. It just seems the same to me. You look through a circle at a dot, which with an electronic dot sight represents the front sight of a conventional set of iron sights, right down to the hood over the front bead.

    Michael


    • Michael,

      The dot sight works somewhat differently. They work on rifles or shotguns best when you develop your shooting technique to the point that you obtain the same cheek weld each shot. Then the eye is in the same position and the dot is the front sight.

      The same is true with pistols, only more so. It is easy to introduce error with a dot sight with just a slight change in your grasp. It is the same with notch sights, but less noticeable.



  3. B.B.,

    Another question. (Sorry if I’m being a pest, but this sort of thing fascinates me.) Of course notch sights are what one finds on pistols, but couldn’t one have a long relief peep, at least in theory, if the aperture were large enough for the extra distance from the eye?

    Michael


    • This last question is on my mind also. I hope that B.B. will address it.
      Regarding manufacturers maybe they should consider the success of ghost ring sights on combat shotguns.
      Bill


      • Michael and Bill,

        Could you use a peep on a pistol? I am afraid not. It is not close enough to the eye for the eye to center on it. The further from the eye, the more it acts like a notch sight. You end up having to align the two sights and the target. Ghost rings are nice for quick, close work but are lacking for precision work. Generally speaking, the smaller the aperture, the better the shot placement.

        If they worked on pistols you would find them on the 1911A1 and newer military pistols.



        • Actually each paragraph addressed different things; first if a peep sight can be used on handguns. RR said no but I think that the Crosman 2240 has a dual sight. Or is the peep for use with the extra shoulder stock only? Second paragraph was just one more reason to support your “case” in favor of the necessity of peep sight.
          Bill


      • on the website rifle shooter they tested ghost ring sites against red dot site on a shotgun. the ghost ring was slightly faster. they could not believe it but I have said it for 20 years. using the ghost ring site on the AR’s which to me is faster then a red dot and the shotgun test proved it
        I feel there should be no sites on a shotgun unless slugs are used. If I gonna use rifle sites on a shotgun I will use a rifle way more rounds on hand with a rifle. nobody uses ghost ring site shooting skeet


        • I just want to point out that I talked about combat shotguns. I have used them for many years effectively with not only slugs but buckshot as well. Ghost ring sights worked with both of them.
          Bill


          • I understand that but I do not want to line up sites when using buckshot only site the barrel. combat shotguns are not rifled so to me aiming the barrel with slugs is ok being effective range is limited with a smootbore


            • Mildot52,

              Distances please? 50, 75, 100? Meters,Yards or Feet?
              I was and am still willing to aim a combat shotgun to the effective range of the round loaded. Smoothbore barrels are underrated by many in terms of potential combat accuracy.

              shootski


              • I realize that after firing every slug made ruining your shoulder emptying your wallet you may find a slug that is fairly accurate with a smoothbore. I will say if I had to aim rifle sites on a shotgun I would rather have my FN FAL or M1A with 20 rounds of more accurate potent ammo. I am unaware of any army using issue slugs in combat. Buckshot was used



                  • you can use slugs with a mortar like trajectory I will use my 7.62 FN FAL which I shot to 600 yds lol. shotgun slugs are to heavy to carry a good amount kick to much slow to reload and for all the noise and recoil are barely good to 75 yds. I have 2 combat 8 shot shotguns. enjoy shooting a few slugs and buckshot but easily can see how limited the effective range is


              • Shootski,
                I have a Remington 870 slug gun. It came with an 18″ smooth improved cylinder barrel with nice open sights. This was before they started rifling the slug barrels. In lower MI center fire rifles are not allowed for hunting deer. My 870 was pretty accurate at 75 yards. In MI most of the shots at deer are at close range, 50 yards or less. I was able to consistently hit a two quart milk carton at 75 yards. I shot a nice 8 point buck at 110 yards with it. I held about 4″ over his back and the slug hit right in the vitals and he dropped instantly. I was by myself and had to drag that 200# plus buck about a mile and throw him over two fences. It took me about four hours to get him back to my car. That was my last deer hunt! Now I just through shelled corn out in the backyard and watch them. Couldn’t shoot one anymore. But that 870 is perfectly capable for it’s intended purpose. I haven’t shot it in over 40 years.


                • Geo791,

                  I never hunted game with a shotgun. But I believe your 110 yard shot. What kind of sights on that 870 since this is a blog about Peep Sights?
                  I’m embarrassed for you Geo! ONLY! a HGMJ (half gallon milk jug) of accuracy with a scattergun!
                  Lol!
                  Great story about the one man drag out. I feel for your two fence tosses most of all!

                  shootski




      • B.B.,
        I’ve read about people mounting “ghost ring” rear sights on handguns:
        https://thegunzone.com/best-glock-ghost-ring-sight-reviews/
        however, as you can see, they are not really “peep sights;” they are too far from the eye to be used in the way a real receiver sight is used on a rifle; you are basically trying to center the front sight in a ring: ring, front sight, target…so we are back to three planes instead of the two you have if you correctly (as you already said) ignore the peep and just look through it. Man, you are “preachin’ to the choir” with this report, B.B.! I had an old Army friend who told me that peep sights were no good, and that HE could shoot MUCH better with open sights. However, when pressed with questions, it turned out he was trying to use peep sights like open sights; he was NOT looking through the peep; he kept moving his head back, and trying to line up the front sight in the circle…a clear case of operator error. Peep sights work fine for me; they’re awesome! I’ve been using them for…about 45 years…and I can’t say enough good things about them. =>
        Looking forward to the rest of this series of reports,
        dave


  4. B.B.,

    O.k. Now I am indeed being a pest, but yet another question, this one asking for your entirely subjective opinion.

    I have always liked peeps because I always shoot much better with them than open sights, everything else being equal. The very first time I ever shot anything, which was a Marksman single-shot spring air pistol, my dad taught me to keep both eyes open and ignore the unimportant images, to concentrate only on the sight picture. (He didn’t know about the front sight thing, perhaps, but he was a natural crack shot with a 1911A1.) So that is the only way I have ever known to shoot, be it peeps, red dot, notch, scope or my sightless Lucky McDaniel Daisy 99 Champion.

    Might it be that folks who say they don’t like peep sights are also those who clench their off eye shut when they shoot?

    By the way, saying you don’t like peep sights is like saying you don’t like bacon!

    Michael



  5. BB,

    I have to agree with you, Michael and others. Time has proven they are the best non-optical sight going. I recently bought an old FWB peep for my grandson’s HW30. Maybe I will find my round tuit before this weekend. 😉


  6. BB,

    A good article. Since being here,… I have learned most of this. As a kid, I never got to use peeps,.. nor as an adult. I did get a Avanti 499 later and immediately fell in (absolute love) with the peep system that it came with. I have never been able to use open sights well (or at least I did not feel confident) but with the 499 there was full confidence right away.

    Having the insert options at the front sight is great too. I like the circle ones the best. I even took a very small washer and pressed it in one of the inserts and at 24′ with a 9/16″ ring binder sticker, there is just the slightest ring of light between the sight ID and sticker OD. It is like shooting fish in a barrel it so easy. Pulling the shot even the very slightest becomes immediately obvious.

    I would not hesitate to peeps on a springer, multi-pump or PCP at all. For 25-30 yards and in,.. where you do not require a wider field of view,.. they are perfect.

    Maybe you can work in some of the (high end) peep systems with adjustable iris, filters, magnification and inserts in one of your upcoming reports?

    Chris


  7. I have always liked the peep sights. However, like a lot of people I have put scopes on a lot of my guns. But the other day I removed the scopes from six of my airguns and put receiver (peep) sights back on each one of them. Even one of my Discovery’s. You forget how much fun it is to use the peep sights. All my Sheridan’s and Benjamin’s except the 310 have peep sights on them.


  8. B.B.,

    A question and a thought. Ghost rings? Never hear of them.. What are they?

    And Jonah’s comparing of scopes and peeps directly above got me thinking about aging eyes. I’ve found low power scopes help me with my old eyes, but peeps seem to pretty well with my farsightedness. I don’t feel as strong a desire to scope a rifle if it has a peep on it. Notched sights are pretty tough on me, though.

    Michael


  9. B.B.

    The start of this article reminded me that it seems that much rifle innovation occurred after the Civil War. Yet, I understand that the CivilWar had major improvements in rifles and this lead directly to the terrible carnage of that War. At some point, would it be possible to do a report on the weapons of the Civil War and why they were so much more lethal than the weapons used before?
    As alway, interesting and informative article.

    -Yogi


  10. Morning all,
    B.B., what a great topic and I’m so glad there’s more to come. I have only been shooting a total of 6 years and recently I bought a used Daisy 853 Avanti that has been keeping me very busy! I love the peeps and the rifle shoots so nicely, the accuracy at 10 yards amazes me (use the trime)! The front sight is a ring, not a post and I’m having so much fun shooting that rifle.
    I have an Air Arms peep mounted on my IZH MP61, but the results are sketchy. I think the peep just isn’t going to make that gun any more accurate, for now, that’s a work in progress. It’s time to move the peep from the IZH to the Diana 24 and see what happens!


    • Putting a peep sight on a springer rifle, like Diana and Cometa, that have the safety right at the butt end of the action (axial with the barrel) won’t work, because the body of the peep interferes with the safety. You can’t get your thumb in there! Thaaaats why Air Arms and Weirauch put their safeties crosswise, I betchya!


      • Will, you could be right about that design consideration for safeties and peeps. I use a FWB match peep on my FWB 124, and the rear facing safety is somewhat hidden under there. I can easily poke it off with a finger, not so much with a thumb though. Tricky to put the safety back on, too. Even with that, it’s a super fun way to shoot… Took off the scope about 4 years ago and just enjoy the peep more. The rifle feels better balanced and the aiming tecnique suits me.

        Andy


      • Will,
        Maybe i’m not following you. I have a Williams peep on my D24 T03 (1996). True, it cannot mount completely rearward as you observe, but mine works for me.

        jumpin


        • Good point, Jumpin, mine isn’t a Williams and I generalized. Yes, my unlabeled peep can work with the Diana, but my thumb is way too fat to make it easy enough for me to use. I tried it on two rifles I thought would be good for the task, but neither were! The third gun I tried, a Crosman Quest, the peep can’t adjust low enough! Will have to try a Williams peep for a regular dovetail mount and share it among the stable mates.
          My Diana is a T02 and is a sweet, well-mannered springer that I love to shoot with open sights. Same with the Quest, I love the open sights. That’s the dag gum trouble, I enjoy using all the various sights!


  11. BB ,

    Pyramyd Air has the Williams sight (5D-AG) it is item AV-B70809. This is a great all around sight . I miss the Mendoza peeps also , I really miss the Bronco with the Williams sight . Perfect training rifle . The problem with the Mendoza rifles is the fact that everyone tries to compare them to higher level guns for what they were at that price point is hard to beat . People should just take them for what they are , a rugged inexpensive gun . If You want a Beeman R7, cowboy up the cash and quit whining that Your Bronco isn’t a R7 !!

    Gene


  12. I just wanted to say I’m glad I got into peep sights. For sure fun shooting.

    And maybe I’m off base a little here. But I relate peep sighting to dot type sights too. The same effects happen when shooting with both types of sights.

    And maybe that’s why I like my smaller diameter dot sight that came with my latest Sig MPX. The smaller diameter brings your sight picture in closer to the dot. Basically it automatically helps you center the sight on the target.

    The only problem I have anyway with peep sights is I can’t pick up on my target fast. I kind of have to search and find the target with a peep sight. With a dot sight I can pick up on the target real quick.

    Not saying one is better or worse. But a dot sight is easier for me to shoot with.


  13. Back in the seventies, I used a Feinwerkbau124s with silver jet pellets and a Williams peep sight mounted on the dovetail notches. The peep sight had screw driver adjustments for windage and elevation and graduated tick marks for reading the elevation. I soldered an extension thumb screw to the head of the elevation screw and could dial it in for any intended distance. I had a lot of fun with that and thought I was pretty hot stuff with it LOL.

    I still have that air rifle and rebuilt it a few years ago but now I have a scope on it. Funny thing is, I am not a turret dialer as far as Scopes go. I usually leave the turrets at zero and use mil dots for hold points.


  14. Thanks BB, this is great info on a fascinating subject.

    I found it a bit ironic that, although I asked on this forum about a peep for my HW30S, I couldn’t get my round tuit yet. Maybe next week.

    On the question of dots, I do not find them too sensitive to parallax error if the dot is somewhat centered on the sight. Then again, that is my impression based on a couple of pistol mounted dots.

    Henry


  15. Cocking Trouble: OK, all. I have a Remington Summit 17cal I shoot: now with 2900 rounds through it (yes: I track ALL shots!) Bought it in ’07 and had to return the first 2 (from PyrAir) due to cocking failures. For the past year this 3rd gun has shown erratic cocking failures, and now, it is very hard to get it cocked/latched. Yesterday I experimented with the trigger settings: came OUT 1/2 rev, then 1 more rev: no joy. When I ran it all the way in, I get it to cock MOST of the time, but not always. I called Crosmann (mfr): they said NO IDEA: send it in and see, though I can buy the trigger ass’y for $17 incldg frt. I might do that, but ANY IDEAS FROM ANYONE ?? I have gotten 0.9″ groups from it at my std 51 ft range, given LOW winds… Trigger tests at 3.9 lbs now.


    • Barrika,

      Don’t own one myself but a quick Google search: “Remington Summit cocking problems” results in a lot of information. Some of it might be useful…some not.

      Good luck,

      Shootski


  16. Michael

    You asked a question at 1:30 am today about using a peep on a pistol. It helps folks with astigmatism like Gunfun1 and me. How does it help? Only if the front sight gets in focus. This ground has been walked over several times before but here goes again. If your eyes have astigmatism there is a cost free way to find out if a peep mounted on your pistol helps the front post to get sharp (clearer, more in focus). Simply take an ordinary washer and hold it with one hand on top of receiver, look through it at the front post and voila! You have your answer. In my case the difference is remarkable, it may or may not be for you.

    BB, this ranks high among your best reports. I have quite a number of rifles with rear peep sights. They look cool too.

    Deck



    • Deck
      I guess this is the best time as any for me to bring this up.

      I’m very into the peep sight stuff after I finally gave it a go. But there is something I see when I shoot my peep sights. I wonder if others notice it.

      I also have floaters in both eyes as well as a cataract that is forming in my off eye (my left eye). But when I first noticed this is when I started shooting peep sights a few years ago it messed with me.

      I could see the floaters. You know what I thought it was when I first seen it in the peep sight. I thought it was a piece of Lint stuck in the open circle of the rear peep sight. Finally I caught on it was the floaters moving. I could move my eye to look at different spots on the target and see the floater follow.

      But heres the thing. I see the floaters and the cataract when I shoot scopes. I found I have to look off target then come back on before the cataract and floater comes into sight. And note I have to do this when I target shoot or plinking with the peep sights.

      Heres why I like dot sights. The floaters don’t show up and I hardly see the cataract.

      I dont know if other shooters see this but I do. One thing maybe why I’m seeing it more is maybe I’m aware it happens with my vision. What I think is I have became use to it when I shoot. Good or bad. I know its there.


      • Gunfun1

        I have floaters too. Four or five years ago I was shooting high power firearms at the range. A large floater shook loose from the vitreous in left eye which is not my shooting eye. It annoyed me when driving. I am pleased to say the large floater has fragmented into tiny ones now which I never notice unless I think about it. Hope yours abate too.

        Deck


  17. B.B.
    It’s almost Easter and Its time to get the ‘peep’s sighted in.
    What’s the right front post thickness for peeps at 30yds, and would
    a perlcorn insert be best for accuracy? Do you change your post
    as ranges change? A peep at fifty yards is not a very big game animal.
    Or is it a pest? Not sure, but they make good eating!
    Rob


  18. who ever came up with the black bull used with a black front site should have been used at a target lol being you got to aim at the bottom of the bull. when I shot matches with M1A and AR at 3 and 600 yds the bull was real big. to me my zero was 12″ off at 600 to aim at the bottom. so I painted the front site with orange glow and was able to aim at the center of the bull and really be sighted for the distance I was shooting at


    • Mildot52
      I think lighting plays into that too.

      I have painted the front post on open sights white, orange, yellow and so on and they all look another shade of grey of to me and I’m not color blind.

      The only way I see that the front post is colored is if I’m shooting out in the sunlight.

      But I know what you mean about the different holds on the target. That’s kind of what I was meaning with dot or peep sights.


      • what I do now is get a white paper plate cut it to the size of the bull tape or staple it over the stupid black bull then I can center my black site on it. at 600 yds the black bull is 36″ with the outer part the 7 ring. so you would be off 18″ at 600 aiming at the bottom of it


        • Mildot
          All cool. But you got to see the target and the sight.

          If you can’t see one or the other good your not going to hit.

          So what your saying is size does matter. As well as seeing what you want to contact.

          When I long distance shoot and want max accuracy or should I say consistent hitting I do match my target to my sight. If you don’t your not going to shoot the best you can. Dot sights are like that.

          Peeps are more forgiving in the sense they are like open sights but easier to shoot more precisely.

          All of this is not as easy to explain as you would think. Once you try to shoot the different types of sights you start seeing they all have a different personality.


          • Well I do not shoot at nite with peeps lol. What I described that I do helps me see the target the best. you cant get a more bold site picture easier to see then a black site on a white bull or if forced to use a black bull a white or orange site on the black bull. also you aint shooting long range with a dot. you can barely shoot one at 80 yds at a bull. Palma match is at 1000 yds with the best peeps and front sites you can buy not with red dots


            • Mildot
              What I’m getting at since your talking colors is if I’m not out in direct sunlight the front sight be it a post or whatever doesn’t show color to me.

              It’s just a shape. So from what I have seen coloring the front sight doesn’t help unless you have good lighting. That’s what I’m getting at.


    • Mildot52,

      Amen on the black bull! Other than aiming at the bottom of it,… I fail to see any use. No doubt I will get pummeled on that comment. If so,… bring it on! I want a clean, precise view of whatever I am shooting at. No doubt, I would do better sniping as opposed to closer combat.

      Chris


      • Yes Chris finally some one understands what I was saying. the Black bull is the dumbest target you can aim at. how it survived this long is beyond me. The only time a black bull is OK is when using an aperture front site where you want a tiny sliver of white around the black bull. also with the front aperture you can use orange bull or any color beside white


      • Chris
        When I shoot a dot sight I set the target on top of the dot. Like how you shoot open post sights or the front peep sight.

        So I see the shape of the front sight as well as the shape of the target. I don’t cover the target with the front sight. That would be more or less the 6:00 hold.

        But right sight color really is hard to see if your placing a post sight on a black target.

        Well come to think about also the same if you place a scope reticle on a black target.

        That’s when you start using mildots on a reticle out around the target object for sighting refrence.


    • Mildot52,

      Read my post up above about how you use that Bullseye with a front globe sight! That is why the from inserts come in different ring (annulus) inside diameter (ID) for different size Bulls and different ranges.

      shootski


  19. I bet all these people saying they like peeps and dots would love low magnification scope shooting.

    It all plays into the same type of sighting.

    Everybody try turning your scope magnification down and do some target shooting.

    All I can say is see what happens and trust the scope.

    Again. Trust the scope even if you can’t pin point a spot on the target you want to hit. That’s what dot and peep sights do for ya.



  20. There’s a lot more going on with peep / aperture / ghost ring sights. The smaller the peep hole, the less light goes through, but also the less does your eye have to switch between target and front sight. In a 10m target rifle, the aperture is so small that you can see both front sight and target clear and sharp. Try one of these sights for hunting at dusk and you will see nothing through them.



  21. Off topic:

    As much as I hate to,… ya’ all is my “peeps”! (still on topic BB),…. 😉

    I get to town to shop 1x per week. My neighbor said a big chain grocer was out of TP. Really? Here? Walmart too? Yup. No way!

    Well, I went to town (16,000) and sure enough. No alcohol (drinkable type still good!,… thank God!), little bleach, no hand sanitizer, no wipes, no TP. One cashier said that she had a customer come from a bigger town (50,000) looking for TP. Food seemed fine in all ways.

    Just walking by shoppers,… Corona was all the talk.

    Take it for what it is worth. I had to see for myself to believe it. This is rural common sense folk here (for the most part).

    Ya’ all is my peeps (note: on topic again),… so take it for what you will and check it out yourself if you do not know for sure what it is like where you are at.

    Chris


    • Chris,

      You’re my peep, too, Man.

      A run on toilet paper tells me a lot of people are just plain full of . . . panic. Keep it together, folks. Well, perhaps an inability to buy toilet paper will prompt my wife to let me purchase the bidet I’ve long coveted.

      I have some Everclear I use as a solvent for the dried ink on typewriter slugs and cassettes. I already have it in a spray bottle for that purpose. The advantage of grain alcohol like Everclear or 190+ Proof white potato vodka is it can be used indoors as long as there is enough ventilation that a static spark is unlikely to cause a fire cloud. Furthermore, it is non-toxic, unlike even small amounts of Isopropyl alcohol. 91 % denatured Isopropyl alcohol is cheaper by the ounce than Everclear, however. Ah, but Everclear sure can get a bowl of fruit punch up on its feet!

      Michael


      • Michael,

        Well,… there you go! There is always an “upside” to the worst if you look hard enough. Even if the “upside” is aimed at your,………. 😉

        Doing good here in the ol’ Man Cave and looking forwards to warmer weather and getting to know the Red Wolf much better. Looking at the ol’ mid-section,…. no chance of starving anytime soon! LOL!!!! 🙂

        Chris


      • Michael,

        Everclear,……… yes. “jungle juice” gathering. 35 gal.? trash can. Much fruit. Pre-gathering. 4 young bucks standing around daring each other to take a strong pull. I was 4th,… of 4. I was stupid. Do not do it! You would have thought that I might have taken a “clue” from the reactions of the first 3? No. Young and dumb!

        🙂 Chris


        • Chris

          Sounds like the making for a toga party where you have large plastic garbage lined trash can and everyone brings their favorite beverage and dumps it in the trash can on the way in along with lots citrus and fruits. Then the goal is to empty the trash can before the night is over and last person standing is crowned the king.

          I got crowned a few times myself, barely

          BD


          • BD,

            Yup. It was not at my apartment, but all the fruit got saved and put in fridge. Fruit salad if you will. It was quite popular for days after. You had better not have any plans though if you were going to grab a bowl full.

            Chris


            • Chris

              Yea not at my place either and needless to say there were lots of togas on the ground before nights end as well. Oh the good ole days.

              I still have some unfrozen water in my freezer to this day that is some of Tennessee’s finest from my daughter in laws family.

              Back in the mid 70s I had a friend whose dad was big into deep sea fishing out of Cocoa Beach, Florida and on one trip he came across a barrel floating so he grabbed it up. It was still sealed and full of liquid. When he popped the cork so to speak he found what seemed to be Rum. He transferred the Rum into gallon jugs and sent a piece of the barrel to the Smithsonian institute to be dated and they estimated it to be somewhere in the mid 1800 vintage. It had apparently broken loose from a old ship during a recent storm. You had to strain the Rum thru cheese cloth due to some of the wood leaching into the Rum over the years but we would mix it 50/50 with a 16 ounce glass bottle of coke and you could not even taste the Rum and two bottles of coke would light you up for the night. It was a 30 gallon keg of some of the finest Rum I have ever had. Now I know why pirates were so daring and carefree.

              BD



        • Chris,

          When I taught in South Carolina, a student of mine came to my office with a furtive, confidential look. He handed me a Mason jar with what looked like water, wrapped in aluminum foil. I asked, “No — is that, is that really white lightening?” Indeed it was. I requested he bring it back, if he wished, after grades were posted. He did, I accepted it, and it tasted as I imagine kerosene would taste. I asked him the next term what percent alcohol it was, and he looked at me and blinked, puzzled. Why Professor, my uncle makes the best, that’s as close to 200 proof as it gets. YOWZA.

          I could feel the two sips I took of it the whole way down my esophagus and into my stomach. When I told him that, and I remember this distinctly, he said he was impressed, that it was sippin’ whiskey, not for throwing down a shot, which would be a waste. The most difficult part was getting past the fumes, which were potent to say the least. Now that I write about this, I wonder if I still have it somewhere, sealed in a box from the move back to Chicago. Probably. Jet fuel!

          Michael


          • Michael,

            I have some “first hand” knowledge on the topic. The first stuff off is near 200. The further the run,.. down to 60-40. The key is blending it all back and dilute with water until it won’t light on a saucer. At that point, it is 100 and will burn a perfect blue/white flame. Taste like 60-70. Blissful.

            Of course,… this is only hear-say and I have no clue what I am talking about or any prior experience with making such concoctions. Well,… no more at any rate.

            😉 Chris



        • Shootski,

          Was the Everclear or the Orange Julius watered down in the ’70s? My brother-in-law used to sweeten his Orange Julius with little sugar cubes back in the late 1960s.

          Michael



            • Shootski,

              Knowing how my brother in law was in the late 1960s, the cubes would have been enhanced.

              During all of 1967 he lived a few doors from the intersection of Haight St. and Ashbury St. in San Francisco. He had a Fender Jazz Bass and access to jams with some of the members of The Grateful Dead, Big Brother and the Holding Company, and The Jefferson Airplane. Through his (and my wife’s) uncle, a famous Haight-Ashbury hippie painter, he had an introduction to anyone who was anyone in the scene. For a young person in 1967 it was the single greatest intersection in the word to live at.

              Michael


              • Michael,

                Yea, I know the place. I was there about the same time on my second Summer Cruise wearing a set of Service Dress Khakis looking for the Nuklea’R Wessels in Alameda!
                Ran into some guys who were also lost in really strange style uniforms looking for the same Vessels I was looking for in Alameda ;^)

                shootski


                • Shootski,

                  The more I hear from Vietnam era vets and Vietnam era hippies is how much they had in common, including trying to stay tan, stay high and stay alive.

                  Michael


      • Michael,
        You can get a Bidet that fits under the seat. it is not in the way and you do not have to use it if you don’t like to. My wife got to try one on a trip to Europe (not an option this month) and insisted that we needed one.
        Gerald


    • Yup, we drove to Costco today and they were totally out of TP. I couldn’t believe it because they normally have several pallets stacked with both Charmin and their Kirkland brand, not today. They were out of organic meats and salmon as well. The guy in the meat department said that they were slammed this morning. The first cases of the coronavirus were confirmed in Detroit yesterday. So now it’s in MI.


      • Geo,

        Watching the news this AM,… they offered no explanation other than panic. Even though this has been going on about a week (hoarding), it did not make the news until yesterday. Hopefully supply is not an issue and things will return to normal inventory soon. Nothing worse than not having the bare essentials. Paper towels were more plentiful and in a pinch, would be just fine. So that might be plan B for the moment for some.

        In Ohio, all schools are closed for the next 3 weeks,.. which will put a serious burden on working parents that otherwise would rely on the schools for daycare. Hang on.

        Chris


        • Chris
          Wife went grocery shopping with my daughter this morning.

          Shelfs are getting bare.

          Was talking to my insurance agent today and was asking about calling her back Monday and what time they opened. She said it depends on what they do with the schools. She said they are talking about canceling school.

          Then on the local radio station KSHE95 they are announcing up comming concerts that are being cancelled.

          Getting kind of crazy right now if you ask me.

          Wonder how many people know what a out house and a corn cob are nowdays. 😉


  22. Michael,

    EVERCLEAR® is (was) made by Publicker Industries so it was advertised as 190 Proof (95% alcohol) it isn’t EVERCLEAR if it is watered down. The folks at Orange Julius sold franchises and that was the cause of OJ being watered down!

    shootski


  23. B.B. and Readership,

    shootski is stumped!
    Does anyone know what a – poser – is with regards to airguns?

    I found this quote below in a famous blog’s collection of reports about airguns and I’ll be darned! I don’t know what one is!
    “Of course, there’s much more to the Continuum, including the poser and regulator adjustment capability.”

    Anyone?

    shootski


    • Shootski
      It’s the little part that sticks out of the dumaflatch… or a spelling error?
      The word ‘power’ fits in there very well and the ‘s’ just happens to be under the ‘w’ on a key board.

      I remember Alameda very well I was in VR-21 Det. there, C118’s, on the sea wall.
      I had to drive through war protesters one day to get on base.
      I had a step brother who lived in the love power district (SF) in a three story apartment house with no interior doors with about two dozen other creative artisans. You know pipe and bong makers, beaded necklaces and such. I remember having to step over people to find him and freaking out people with my short hair.
      Bob M


      • Bob M,

        Thank you! I just couldn’t figure that out ;^)
        I still wear my hair short on the sides and the Aviator Sunglasses still get to some folks…who must be feeling guilty about something.
        I always thought the Navy had R6D?

        shootski


        • Shootski
          The DC-6 was designated the C-118 Liftmaster for the Airforce and true the R6D for the Navy. After 1962 it was redesignated to the C-118 also. I got the Navy Achievement Medal for saving one from the bone yard. I also helped another one with a tweaked fuselage fly straight with the addition of a fixed trim tab. People forgot all about using them. Made a lot of pilots happy.
          The DC-3 is even more complicated. Called the Skytrain, Dakota and the beloved Goony Bird. R4D and C-47. It evolved into the C-117 after major changes. Extended fuselage, larger squared off flight surfaces and a swiveling tail wheel among a bunch of other upgrades. I worked on them both at NAF Mildenhall, England. We had the last of the enlisted WWII pilots there. One often replied with the middle finger when directed to a parking spot. He never needed help.

          Bob M


          • Bob
            I have always been into RC airplanes. Always liked flight and always kept up with the different planes throughout time. I wanted a RC plane of them all. And I did pretty good making that happen.

            If a person has not tried RC flight and they like planes they should.

            Oh and trimming out a RC plane is a very important part of that planes performance. But in the end the straighter the plane flys without trimming it the better.

            I remember seeing newbies flying with the plane all crossed up because of counter trimming. Just plain funny to watch. Then the planes would want to stall and snap roll because the trim was so far out.

            A many newbies were most grateful when someone that knew how to fly would set up their planes. They actually was able to fly and ended up enjoying it and became accomplished flyers.

            Just thought I would say. When you mentioned trim tabs it reminded me of my younger days of learning to fly my gliders as a kid. Another thing I’m glad I did in life. RC planes. Well and still do.


  24. GF1
    Thank you for making the obvious so very clear. Floaters!

    Hate to tell you hay many times I tried to clear the ‘obstruction’ out of a peep sight only to find nothing there and have it still there when I looked again.
    Bob M



      • GF1
        Yes I learned I can move them around to clear up my vision by moving my eyes quickly left or right and returning slowly to the center.
        Had some big clear, but out of focus ones too but come to think about it, I don’t have that many floaters any more or perhaps my brain learned to ignore them better? Need to look up in the sky on a clear blue bright day to check them out. Taking Vitamins and Supplements may be helping?

        For a while there I thought it was my eye lashes blocking the view when I squinted.
        Bob M


        • Bob
          If its sunny out or even a bit of a overcast I can still see my floaters if I scan my eyes back and forth.

          And since we are on this subject. Don’t know if you wear glasses but I do.

          Have you ever got a small drop of oil on your glasses. Then look into light just right and you can actually see the floaters moving in the oil. It’s almost like your looking into your eye. Kind of cool actually.


          • GF1,

            Close your eyes and look at a bright light or the sun (eyes closed). All kinds of stuff going on, but not sure what it is. Pretty sure I have some floaters,… but nothing that causes any issues, so far.

            Chris


            • Chris
              Good that you don’t have them yet.

              I’ll be sitting in the breezeway and getting ready to shoot then something gets my attension out of the corner of my eye.

              I think its birds flying by. But it turns out to be the floaters moving with my eye movement.


          • GF1
            No but I will probably try it some day, sounds interesting. Like creating a small mirror. I have trifocals and they play hell with scopes.
            I think I mentioned the three gray spots I had once that were big enough to totally bock a persons face at about six feet. Scared the hell out of me and they did not move!
            About the time BB had his detached retina. Now that must have resulted in a short conversation with God.
            Evidently I had too much morning coffee standing on the airport ramp in the cold and raised my blood pressure enough to rupture some very small blood vessels in the back of my right eye. And you can be sure I thanked God a while later when they faded away.


            • Bob
              That detached retina stuff scares me. Well anything sight related.

              I have worked in the machine shop business for like 36 years now. I just cringe whe I see the new young guys not wearing their safety glasses. I holler at them all the time. Some get mad then realize why I say something. I have been thanked many times for telling someone to put them on once they become aware.

              You only get one chance. When the second ones gone then what.


  25. I had cataract surgery on both eyes in 08 where they pulverize your lens of the eye and suck it out and replace it with a contact of sorts only under the cornea. I went from being very nearsighted with lots of astigmatism to being farsighted with 20/20 vision overnight basically. What a change to get used to, I had built in sunglasses for so many years that after surgery I could not go outside without sunglasses at all for years. I could even see the 60HZ cycle of fluorescent lights in the shop at Harley and had to get my doc to write a script for me to be allowed to wear lightly tinted safety glasses while at work due to the lights being so bright.

    Then about a year later I started having floater/cobwebs on both eyes that the doc would use a laser to burn off and had that done a few times over the next few years.

    Then when I started shooting airguns in 2013 or so I noticed that when looking thru scopes I would see what looked like bugs crawling down either side of the targets. And I could see some little black dots ( floaters ) from time to time when looking a light colored backgrounds. I went back to my eye doc and he said the floaters I had now where inside the fluid of the eyes, mainly my right eye. He sent me to a specialist that had to vacuum the floaters out of the fluid in my right eye. I was awake for it and talk about a cool experience seeing a little probe like device sucking up the black dots was pretty cool. I still have occasional floaters that come and go but no bugs crawling down the sides of my targets and also an occasional bubble that floats around some and then disappears as well.

    All in all I am glad I had the surgery done as its nice to only need readers for up close work now versus needing glasses all the time except for up close work. Pretty much a 180 degree change from before and after to me for the better.

    BD


  26. Sure wish I would get email notices of new comments to my posts like we used to get. I have checked my spam and trash folder and nothing there. All was fine till March 8th.

    BD


    • Buldawg
      The replys are showing up in my promotion section of my email for a bit of time now.

      So maybe yours are going there and they are being sent to the spam folder. Not sure. Just a suggestion.

      And I’m not looking forward to any eye surgery at all. Not even a little bit.


  27. Hi Tom, I have to correct you about one thing about the S331 peep sight that was used on the Crosman 160 . It was not made by Williams or Crosman ,but by Mossberg. I often see where folks mistakingly write that it was made by Williams ,but it was not. BTW, I have a Mendoza peep on my Diana 34 and had to make a higher ramp front to use it.


  28. BB: My research indicates that the alloy S331 sight was made by Mossberg to replace the Lyman 57MS that was used on the Mossberg post war 144LSA .22 RF rifles. The best discussions of this are to be found in Victor and Cheryl Havlin’s book “Mossberg More Gun For The Money”.(ISBN:0-962943-9-3) There are numerous patent drawings of Mossbergs sights and scopes in this book as well. many may not know this ,but Mossberg made everything from guns,campers ,bicyles, and camping gear in the post war years. As an aside, I have mounted Mossbergs folding peepsight (model S-130)on Crosman 140 and 160 rifles after drilling and tapping . My own 140 has it on now. The mounting holes for the two screws is the same spacing as the Lyman I mention above . Take care ,Robert


    • Robert,

      I have owned a Mossberg 144 with the S331 sight (and Mossberg’s name) on it, I have also seen the S331 with Crosman’s name, William’s name and I think one or two others.

      Making gun sights is sort of specialized. I was shocked when Air Force came out with a target peep that they make 100 percent in their factory. A good peep sight is a complex thing. I won’t argue this further right now but when I have time I will look through my library to see what I can find.

      B.B.


Leave a Reply