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Airguns that should still be with us

This report covers:

  • The setup
  • The FWB 124
  • The Crosman Mark I and Mark II
  • The Air Venturi Bronco
  • Crosman 160
  • Crosman 180
  • The deal
  • But wait…
  • Summary

Reader Prof Steel Toe said he wishes that some guns had never gone away. BB Pelletier wishes the same thing. Today let’s talk about some of those airguns that should still be with us.

The setup

I could do this by the year they left the market. I could do it by their cost. Or the year they came out. There are a lot of different ways I could look at this, but I’m just going to wade in and call them as I see them.

One thing I won’t do is call out an airgun whose company is no longer in business. Nothing can be done about that and stuff happens. So I’ll leave the Sheridan Supergrade alone. Of course I wish they were still made, but we talked on this blog about the possibility of Crosman making a Benjamin 392/397 Regent Grade. It wouldn’t make them rich, because it’s a onesy-twosy kind of deal. But just having the facility to do something like that would earn Crosman loyalty points they could spend in so many ways that it seems like it might be worth it.

Sheridan Supergrade.

Benjamin 397 Regent Grade
Benjamin 397 Regent Grade.

The FWB 124

If “they” still made the FWB 124 people would still be avoiding them like they did in the last days of their production. I think some folks were jealous of their success and didn’t buy them just because they were so successful. Yes, I just said that. Think about it. When something gets popular a gathering of naysayers taunts it out of sheer jealousy.

FWB 124
FWB 124.

The Crosman Mark I and Mark II

Here is a CO2 pistol that I wish had never gone away. They shoot great, have good triggers and are simple to hold. Kids and smaller adults have no trouble shooting them. I know sales slack off, but I wish the Marks I and II were still made.

Crosman Mark I
Crosman Mark I, This one is a .22 and the Mark II is a .177 pellet or BB gun.

The Air Venturi Bronco

The Bronco went away because the price from the manufacturer was suddenly jacked up so high that Air Venturi felt no one would buy it. It had been selling for around $99-130, and when the retail price soared north of $150 they pulled the plug. The little rifle sold okay but it never was a world-beater, so they were probably right.

Air Venturi Bronco.

Stock Up on Shooting Gear

Crosman 160

I would lament the Crosman 160, but the world actually did something about that one. An American had one tricked-out by Tim McMurray and then sent it to China to copy, which they did. But the resulting QB 22 and QB 77 never sold well because of the high price ($200 retail in the ’90s). But the QB 78 that followed did sell well and continues to, to this very day. It also spawned a host of related air rifles, and I think there is a moral in that. You see, when an inherently good design stays around long enough, it starts to have inertia of its own — like the 2240 and 2260.

Here is what I wrote about the QB 78 in 2006.

“Many airgunners are fond of saying they wish such and such an airgun was remade. “If they would just remake the Crosman 600, I’d buy one!” Well, in 1986 Daisy remade a very accurate copy of their pre-1920 No. 25 pump BB gun, and I didn’t buy one – despite being one of those who was most vocal about wanting it. Years later, I had the privilege of paying nearly twice what Daisy had asked when the replica was new.”

Not long after Crosman quit making the 160 rifle, the same cry went up from the airgunning crowd. Used gun prices escalated and everyone said they would buy a replica if they were made again. So, a man named Henry Harn did just that. He had Tim McMurray build a custom 160 with several of his most popular modifications, and Harn took it to China to have it copied. The resulting rifle was called the QB22 in .22 caliber and the QB77 in .177. The price of the new rifle was apparently so high that sales were not as good as anticipated, and within a few years the gun was becoming hard to find.”

By then, the Chinese came out with their own version of the gun, a rifle they called the QB78. This rifle exists in both .177 and .22; the model remains the same for both. It sold for less than half what the other copies retailed, and sales were brisk from the start. A QB78 looks like a QB22/77 that hasn’t been given the same attention to finishing. At its heart, it is a rather faithful copy of the original Crosman 160/167 in its most-evolved form. A discussion of those features follows.”

Crosman 160
Crosman 160.

QB 78
QB 78.

The difference is the QB 78 barrel can sometimes be a crap shoot. But that was also true of the Crosman 160 barrel — you just don’t hear as much about it. And the Chinese engineers didn’t stop innovating. They added a few features Crosman never did, with the result that a good QB 78 is as nice or nicer than a good Crosman 160. There is a lesson here that I will come back to in a bit.

Crosman 180

The Crosman 180 — and I mean the single CO2 cylinder model — not the twin cylinder model (from Canada?) that is also called the 180, is a rifle I wish were still made. It isn’t as powerful as the 160, but it’s a dandy little plinker.

Crosman 180
Crosman 180.

The deal

Okay, there are many other classic airguns that have come and gone and I know you guys will fill in the blanks. But here is the deal. In the life of a product at some point it gets to where the sales just aren’t there. Customers are bored with the same old stuff and are looking for new. That’s the way it is with most things.

When that happens the marketing department has to do something, and removing that item from the market is the right thing to do.


Here is the big lesson that nobody ever seems to learn. There will always be a small latent bunch of potential buyers who didn’t have the money when the item was for sale, or the time wasn’t right for some other reason. If those items were to be brought back in a few years, there would be more sales.

The problem is — sometimes that’s possible and sometimes it’s not. For example, if Chevrolet were the remake the 1963 Corvette Stingray Split Window coupe today, do you think there would be some sales? Used ones in restored condition go for over $250,000. What if Chevy were to offer them for $120,000? Wait — don’t say it yet. Chevy would have to meet today’s more restrictive emissions laws and safety requirements. Maybe they could build one that looked right and maybe they couldn’t. But here is the deal.

Corvette split window
Corvette Sting Ray Split Window coupe from Bonhams Auctions.

They still wouldn’t sell that well!

Huh! How do you know, BB? Well, here’s how BB knows. In the first place, the new car wouldn’t be a 1963 Corvette Split Window coupe. It would be a 2022 Corvette Split Window coupe. And the differences would fuel car-guy discussions until the end of time. 

It’s just like the Indian motorcycle company of today. It isn’t the real Indian Motocycle company (yes — the r was left out of the original name on purpose by Indian — the real Indian company that folded in 1953). Today’s Indian is selling a product that bears no relation to the original, except the name. Doesn’t mean they aren’t good motorcycles. No doubt they are. They just aren’t “real” Indians. See what I mean?

Okay — here is one shining AIRGUN example of what I am talking about. In 2006 Daisy, the same company that used to be the Plymouth Iron Windmill Company of Plymouth, Michigan, brought out a wire stock BB gun that looked very much like the one they made back in 1887/88. People were paying $2,500 and up for original guns at that time. When they brought this new one out the price was $300, plus $12 shipping. Yes — $300. Know what the tire-kickers did? They all crossed the road and said, “I ain’t payin’ no $300 for a BB gun!” 

Daisy wire stock
2006 Daisy wire stock BB gun.

But wait…

Yes, there is more. If Sig Sauer were to suddenly bring back the ASP20 breakbarrel, do you think there would be any takers? Well, old BB would certainly buy one in .177. I’m sure a few of them would sell. But Sig had purchased a half-millon-dollar welding machine to weld that barrel to the base block. No doubt that has been moved elsewhere in the company. Sig had an assembly line set up to make that air rifle. Some of those guys were reassigned in the company and some were let go by Sig in a workforce-reduction program. No judgement there, but it would be harder for Sig to build that air rifle today than it was for them to build it the first time.

Sig ASP20 – one of the finest breakbarrels ever made.

But Crosman? Hey — they are in the business of making airguns — right? However, when they finally decide to remove that huge and ancient wave-soldering machine and carousel that solders the barrels of 392s and 397s to the pump tube, whatcha gonna do? Call the Ghostbusters?


Guys, manufacture isn’t as straightforward as it may seem. Yes, there are opportunities for companies to bring back best-sellers — if they plan for it and if the technology allows. But the window of opportunity is limited and if it is missed, they have to create the thing all over again. Sometimes, like Daisy, it’s possible. Sometimes, like Chevrolet, it’s a lot harder.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

90 thoughts on “Airguns that should still be with us”

  1. BB,

    How could you not mention about Diana 27?

    I’m Fish by they way. I changed my passwords for both my email and account here – and forgot it.


    Also the very early versions of HW 30 / 50…


  2. I would like to see a wood stock with the tootsie roll pump handle and rifled barreled Crosman 760 like they use to make. They were nice solid lightweight accurate guns and they didn’t cost much.

    And another was the Benjamin Kantana I believe it was called. It was basically a Discoveey with a nice wood stock. I remember when they still made them and I had my first Discovery when they came out. PA had some of the Kantana stocks in inventory. I was going to get one and put on my Discovery and kept putting it off. Finally I decided to get one of the Kantana stocks and PA was sold out and Crosman discontinued them.

    There’s probably other guns that I’m not thinking about right now. Maybe someone else will comment about one and jog my memory.

  3. The 1985 Air Arms Camargue is one of the most beautiful airguns ever made imo.

    It is named after the region of France where the walnut trees used to make its stock grow.

    If they were to make them again, I would buy one in a heartbeat!

  4. B.B.,

    On the note of technological advances much as I wish that FWB still made the 300s the spring piston power plant had to give way to the Single Stroke Pneumatic then the PCP in formal competition. In my search for a FWB 300s I found this: https://www.airrifle-china.com/product/9.html Unfortunately I cannot import it into my country. Playing sour grapes the quality of the barrel from China might still be a crap shoot. My search continues locally, one of these days I hope to report success.


    • Siraniko,

      This is indeed so true. Technology moves on.

      As far as Chinese quality, it still seems to be a crap shoot with most of them. Some have figured out that for customers on the other side of the world, quality has to be kept pretty high.

      Before I buy one of these things, I want to go inside. I have rebuilt these before. The quality of the German engineering and manufacturing in these things is amazing. You have also never seen such a complicated trigger mechanism in your life.

      I do not see the Chinese faithfully copying this air rifle. You could not afford it. This air rifle has also been sold by several different Chinese companies, at least in name. Hmmm.

    • Siraniko,

      I have tested the BS4. I used to own one. It’s the equal of the FWB 300S in every way, in my opinion. Of course you may be right about the Chinese barrels.


        • Gf1,

          That was maybe one place where the copy wasn’t as good as the original. As I recall (going back 15-20 years) the Chinese trigger had the slightest bit of creep in stage two.


          • BB
            Creep is one thing but was it as durable as the FWB trigger.

            Like RidgeRunner said. The FWB trigger was complex. As well as the rest of the guns design. But those FWB 300’s are still rolling on.

            I would not waste my time with the China variant. Just spend a few extra bucks and get the original FWB 300 and be done with it and be happy.

          • Roamin
            Don’t know if I want to.

            And what does that have to do with a FWB 300 trigger.

            The FWB 300 is a complicated gun. But they are nice guns. Find a parts diagram of a 300 and you’ll see what I mean.

  5. BB,

    I do believe that some of them return in one form or another. The Daisy wire stock. Although it is not a faithful copy of the original, I still wanted one. I choked at the price, but Mrs. RR said I should get one. By that time though, they were all gone. This is one of the few examples where the original version costs more than the “new” one.

    It would cost more than $1000 for BSA to faithfully reproduce my 1906 BSA. GF1 would like a “new” tootsie roll 760. He would probably do better to find and rebuild an old one.

    There is a “new” FWB 124. It is known as the FWB Sport. It is drop dead gorgeous and from what I understand is a real sweet sproinger. PA no longer carries them, but they can still be found at other dealers. Yes, it is expensive. That is what turned me away. But now the price has come down a couple of hundred dollars and it is almost reasonable.

    • Ridge runner hello you old so and so . …. Frank b from Huntsville here. Computer and life issues have kept me away for quite a while. Then WordPress fought me and I didn’t know how to rectify it. If you still have a desire to own that Daisy, please please shoot me an email. It’s a Gmail account….. Starts with Frank bhsv lowercase no spaces. I miss Tom and all you guys

      • Frank!

        It has been quite a while! Welcome back!

        I really do appreciate the offer and I would really like to get my grubby paws on it, but life issues have seen to it that I could not possibly afford that gal right now. The only thing I could do about it right now would be some trading and there are not many of these gals I would let go. I will drop you and email so we can talk about it though.

        • RR
          Yep and I use to shoot the heck out of that gun. I took it to my brother’s house years ago. He wanted to use it to take care of the mice that kept messing around in his chicken coop.

          I talked him into a regular Marauder several years back. I should of brought the 760 home back then.

  6. BB,

    I to have a list of the airguns that I wish were still available. 🙂

    I’m not a marketing guy but you would think that a company would notice that specific models were in high demand and (since they own the design and have the tooling) want to cash in on it.

    Feinwerkbau brought back the 124 as the “Sport” but they priced themselves out of the market. Don’t know if they were being greedy or if it really cost 5 times as much to make the Sport than it did the original 124.

    Guess that setting up the tooling (new dies and such) couldn’t be justified for small production runs but modern CNC machining should be able to bash out a batch of parts for “limited edition” run in a hurry.

    Then to, technology moves on. As much as the FWB 300 is a engineering marvel, their current Model 800 PCP is probably less expensive to make.

    I would love to have a new Crosman 101 for nostalgic reasons but I can’t see that ever happening – it’s just not practical. Truthfully, when I hunted with the 101 I always wished that I could pump it up and get several shots before having to pump again – maybe that’s why I really appreciate modern PCPs 🙂


    • Hank
      I alway thought that about my old 760’s I had throughout time. And probably why I like pcp’s too.

      And wonder where Chris USA has been. Anybody hear from him lately.

    • Hank,

      The cheap PCPs certainly were the death knell of many a multi-pumper. Velocity Outdoors is seeing if they can revive it a bit and there are a couple of hybrids out there, but as for RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns I will be happy to finish the restoration on my 101.

  7. B.B.,
    You made some great points here, especially with regard to production lines, and the personnel who man them. Years ago, I worked on an antenna that our Gov had decided could be exported to a friendly nation. So, we built one prototype, and they liked it, but suggested some mods; then we built 4 pre-production models, which got tweaked slightly before going in to the production phase. We set up a production line to make 40 of these antennas over the course of a few years (they were high-tech jet fighter radar antennas). At the time, we told the customer that, if they wanted more, do NOT wait till the production line was shut down (and assets re-allocated and personnel with the expertise were assigned to other jobs) to ask for them, or we’d have to charge a huge fee to set the production line up for a second run, and the antennas would cost a lot more (as re-procurement costs would rise for the hundreds of subassemblies). They did not listen; and they DID want more antennas after the line had been shut down (equipment re-allocated, and personnel retired or moved onto other jobs). When they saw what the increased cost would be, they decided to “bite the bullet” and pay the huger cost to set up a new production line in their own country. The point is, you’re so right; even if a company wants to make something they used to make, it’s not like you can just flip a switch, and bingo, you’re back in production, hahaha! =>
    Thanks for a really interesting report,

  8. B.B.,

    As you know, I have been a reader of this blog for a very long time now. This must be one of the best installments you’ve written. The examples to prove your points are the perfect ones. They describe the impediment human nature brings to air gun market dynamics.

    Who has owned a Supergrade and then sold it who has not regretted parting with it? The Crosman Mark I and II are such great designs that many still exist in modified form and are shot at silhouette targets. And whenever I think of the Crosman 180, I am reminded of your describing it as Edith’s go-to pest dispatcher. Finally, my best-shooting mid-powered springer is an early (San Anselmo!) lefty FWB 124.

    I suppose one of the complications in reproducing a classic for today’s market is indeed that it necessitates selling a reproduction for roughly the same price that an actual vintage one sells for. A new Crosman 180 would cost as much or more than a resealed vintage one. And, as you have mentioned, when classics are re-released, the potential buyers are in no hurry because they are available again, so no rush. But by not getting them while they can, they end up missing out when they disappear yet again. That scenario could be called the Daisy Wire Stock routine. So profund is the dynamic that many who waited too long to acquire one in 2006 would miss out on one yet again if they were offered, again, in 2022. Some lessons are impervious to being learned.

    B.B., once again congratrulations on today’s blog, one of your best ever.


    • Michael,

      Wow! Nice compliment!

      Please send me your mailing address again, so I can keep current with those checks I send to get your good comments. 😉


        • Michael,

          As you point out above, there are really very few “remakes” of old air rifles that sell for less than one of the originals can be had for. That is how RRHFWA came to be. Many of the airguns here could not have been acquired for the price of a “new” one. A prime example is my 1906 BSA. To faithfully build it new would cost well north of $1000. I bought it for a little over $100. A few of the gals around here I picked up for $35 or less. There are a couple I spent a lot of money on, but not many.

          • RidgeRunner,


            Additionally, folks who are able to restore/repair a sick air gun can often find great bargains. “Diana 27. Parts gun — won’t cock. $25.” Buy it, fix it, enjoy it. :^)


  9. How about any of the GISS System airguns. Once you shoot one, you will never forget it!
    Wish somebody would make a 21 Century version. Even at $1,000, I would buy one.


  10. BB,
    Nice topic! There are many examples of this, and all of us have that ‘I should have bought one, before they stopped making them’ regret.
    The two examples that came to mind for me were firearms, both made by Ruger. The first was the Hawkeye, a single-shot varmint pistol, in an odd caliber (.256 Magnum?). Very few were produced and sold, but when they stopped, I heard multiple comments about wanting one.
    The second was the Bearcat, a small, alloy frame single-action sixgun (later, steel frame). Production stopped in 1974. Lots of my friends lamented their demise (me, as well). Production re-started in 2002, and the same people that lamented its earlier ‘end’ wouldn’t buy a new one, because it was ‘too expensive’ or ‘not the same’. (they’re still making them)
    There you go, one that never re-started and one that did. Draw what conclusions you may.
    Thanks for your daily bright spot in my day.
    PS – Is a new HW30s (part 11?) review lurking out there somewhere?

  11. BB, All of these guns from the past are the byproducts of machine tool processes and manufacturing
    techniques that may be unprofitable or obsolete in todays economics. What happens to wave soldering when it becomes the old way of making something is that it becomes a lost art. When do we get the clones of the ASP20? I inquired about a left hand BS4, and a couple of others, thank you.
    Bicycle frames are not manufactured by brazing any more, they are welded, or laid up in a mold, gasp, but people pay for custom made still. If collectors drive the prices up, then it creates some room, but that is not a good business model, because it is so flaky. I notice you still cannot buy a cheap R1 clone.


    • Rob,

      I just read an article about how metal frames, mechanical shifting groups and rim brakes are almost gone when it comes to the high end road bikes and are already being replaced by graphite, electronic shifting and disc braking on mid-level bikes.


      • I saw a few rim brakes on bikes this for years Tour. Thing is, for races like Paris-Roubaix, 32dbl butted stainless spokesx3 and a nice set of hard annodized aluminum tubular rims with 28mm Clement silk tires is still the bench mark. In my day we didn’t have the wonderful hydraulic disc brake.
        That, and S.I.S., and clipless pedals are the biggest innovations. The other thing that hasn’t changed is the crashing. It is truly a dangerous sport.
        And remember that equipment is designed for guys for the most part dont weigh allot. 185lbs is a big guy. I dont know if Peter Sagan is that big, but Miguel Indurain was.

        • And I would add that for all the hype a carbon bike gets, the real engineering marvel is the wheel. Its the single most significant performance upegrade you can make, by lowering the rotating mass is much more important than lightening the frame, or even aerodynamics, and its all well understood formula that if you dont observe, you will have problems.
          Tandems use 40 spokes wheels. Jobst Brandt wrote a great book on how to build them. I love how my little Bandit has the same power and better accuracy than my R10.

          • !stblue,

            Today only Campy seems to be a purist maker using traditional material.

            I biked only casually, but I grew up knowing three RAAM veterans, including, ahem, Lon Haldeman. He was a repairman at a bike shop one block from the house I grew up in. He repaired my Fuji (and later Cannondale) many times. :^)

            Lon was unreal. He lived 45 miles away and rode his bike to work. Then, he’s ride home and eat dionner. Then he’d go out and train! He regularly rode over a thousand miles a week.


      • The guy who came in second behind Lon, John Howard, set a land speed record of over 150 mph at Bonniville on a bike. I’m sure he could eat 5K calories a day and not gain weight with that kind of work load.

  12. BB,

    A report idea. You’ve done it a few times – just a different approach here.
    A series with possibly dozens of parts. Every part will be about a perfect kind of airgun: springer rifle, gas ram rifle, CO2 pistol, multi pump pistol, and such – every single category on PA. We’ll list the perfect specs for each and you’ll summarize. Eventually, we will have 3-4 groups of specs, which will be voted by you and the readers. Results will be the description of perfect specs for that category. Let’s see what common sense could come up with.


  13. Hello to everyone from Huntsville Alabama. I am the guy formerly known as FrankBpc. I wanted to say I have really missed the air gun community and all you guys individually. Been trying to get in touch with folks but lost my entire email list and got locked out of my own email. That and depression and other medical oddities had me sidelined.
    I am now at a point where some of my collection needs to move along…. To the right homes of course. I would love to hear from Kevin, Fred, Burke, Matt, Chris, Derrick….. And everyone else for that matter.
    Anyone who would like to reconnect my address starts with frankbhsv.
    It’s a Google account so you know how to end it. Anxiously hoping to hear from everyone. FB

      • I have dearly missed you my friend. Can’t tell you how frustrated I got trying to post a hello on your blog….. Would love to catch up . At your convenience of course!! You are still one of my heroes
        If you ever have time to tinker…. I have quite a few you’ve never done on your blog or Nick for that matter

  14. Bronco with a 2 stage trigger and prince of wales grip.
    Sig ASP20 without a single change.
    FWB 124 instead of the current good looking but overpriced thing.
    Crosman 160 could make a premium return with a LW barrel.
    Is Izh 60/61 still on anyone’s wish list?
    Did HW30 / 50 and such have a different design before the galling issues?

    • Val,

      You know what you should have that’s WAY cool? The prototype Bronco we fabbed up and sent to Mendoza to study. Remember? It had a beautiful maple stock that was longer than what we settled on for the Bronco.


    • Val Gamerman,

      I was looking around the PyramydAir site and I found reference to this: /product/beeman-black-cub-dual-caliber-air-rifle-combo?m=4848
      Is this still a product that will come in the future? Looks like a good starter rifle.


      • This item shows as on order by us, and past due in the system (one PO was supposed to arrive on April 13, and another on June 1). Given the supply chain disruptions, I would be very hard pressed to say when it will be in stock, but the fact that our system has not taken it offline tells me that we are promised by Beeman that they will arrive in stock eventually. Sorry to be the bearer of these old news… 🙁

  15. Val Gamerman,

    No problem. The fact that it is in the system somewhere shows hope. Now we just have to create the market for it somehow. Demonstrating how airguns can be a constructive method of decreasing stress safely within the confines of one’s own backyard. Friendly competition and bonding with the family. Something along the lines of the old Honda motorcycle campaign in contrast to the reputation of Harley Davidson and Triumph.


  16. There was an outcry when NASA announced they would not be able to build a Titan rocket anymore. But it’s just like BB described here. So many components of that time are not produced anymore. The people who built the Titan are all retired, most don’t live anymore. You simply cannot take the plans from the archives and go build another one without pretty much designing it new from scratch.

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