Crosman Legacy 1000 – One Hundred Year Edition.
This report covers:
- Velocity per pump stroke
- Average velocity on the same number of pumps
- Discharge
- RWS Superdomes
- Crosman Premier 10.5-grain domes
- Now with BBs
- Five-pump test
- Loading and feeding
- Pump effort
- Trigger pull
- Summary
Today we look at the velocity of the Crosman Legacy 1000, One-Hundred Year Edition multi-pump pneumatic rifle. Since I have a lot of tests in the mill, I put both pellets and BBs into this one. Lots to cover so let’s begin.
Velocity per pump stroke
In this test I will test a single pellet with differing numbers of pumps strokes. The manual says the Crosman Legacy 1000 should be pumped no less than three nor more than twelve times, so those will be parameters of the test. I will show each shot.
I chose the Crosman Premier 7.9-grain dome for this test. Crosman no longer makes such a pellet, but I presume their 7.9-grain hollowpoint is closest to its performance because it is domed.
Pumps……….Vel.
3……………….463
4……………….542
5……………….581
6……………….616
7……………….659
8……………….682
9……………….704
10……………..716
11……………..734 no air left after shot
12……………..742 no air left after shot
At the highest average velocity this pellet developed 9.66 foot pounds/13.10 joules of energy at the muzzle. I tested for air remaining after shooting on 11 and 12 pumps strokes and there was none.
Average velocity on the same number of pumps
Now, let’s pick a number of pump strokes, say five, and test the same Premier 7.9-grain domes for a string of 10 shots.
Shot………..Vel.
1…………….596
2…………….600
3…………….595
4…………….597
5…………….601
6…………….596
7…………….599
8…………….597
9…………….592
10…………..597
The average for this string of ten shots fired on five pump strokes is 597 f.p.s. The extreme variation is 9 f.p.s. Therefore this Crosman Legacy 1000 is pretty consistent.
At the end of this string I pumped the Legacy 1000 12 times and shot one of the same pellets that, in the first test, went out at 742 f.p.s. This time the velocity was 738 f.p.s. That’s more evidence of consistency.
Discharge
The discharge sound for 5 pumps was 98.9 dB. For 12 pumps it was 117.5 dB.
Five pumps of air.
Twelve pumps of air.
RWS Superdomes
Next to be tested were 8.3-grain RWS Superdomes. I tested them on five pump strokes. The average for 10 shots was 595 f.p.s. The spread was 10 f.p.s., from 589 to 599 f.p.s. I will mention that Superdomes loaded a little hard.
After that test I pumped the rifle 12 times and sent the same Superdome out at 744 f.p.s. At that speed this pellet develops 10.2 foot-pounds/13.83 joules.
Crosman Premier 10.5-grain domes
I did the same five-pump test for Crosman Premier 10.5-grain domes.
Shot………..Vel.
1…………….530
2…………….534
3…………….536
4…………….530
5…………….534
6…………….531
7…………….534
8…………….526
9…………….529
10…………..534
The average for this string is 532 f.p.s. The extreme spread is 10 f.p.s. — from 526 to 536 f.p.s.
The maximum velocity on 12 pumps 659 f.p.s. At that velocity this pellet develops 10.13 foot pounds.
Now with BBs
I only tested one BB in the rifle — a Crosman Black Widow. I tested the ease of loading the upper spring-loaded mag from the larger internal mag and, as reader shootski reminded us, it’s a matter of twisting and shouting! It works as advertised. But it’s also possible and even easy to load BBs singly.
Once again I did the velocity per pump stroke test. Here is what that gave.
Pumps……….Vel.
3……………….513
4……………….572
5……………….618
6……………….654
7……………….677
8……………….717
9……………….734
10……………..716
11……………..745 no air left after shot
12……………..760 no air left after shot
Five-pump test
I next tested Black Widow BBs with five pumps of air and got the following results.
Shot………..Vel.
1…………….624
2…………….624
3…………….625
4…………….623
5…………….628
6…………….622
7…………….640
8…………….623
9…………….634
10…………..633
The average for this string is 628 f.p.s. I then pumped the rifle 12 times and the BB went out at 673 f.p.s.
Loading and feeding
I did find loading pellets into the rifle as easy as I imagined. But, as was mentioned, a few did get turned around.
The pellets loaded easily.
The “secret” to loading this rifle with pellets, if there is one, is to hold the rifle nearly level and canted slightly toward the rifle’s left side. Place a pellet on the edge of the loading port and let it roll into the channel.
I did find that Premier pellets of both weights loaded easily. RWS Superdomes loaded hard, with a click as the bolt pushed them into the breech.
Pump effort
I tested the effort needed to pump the rifle for all pumps from 3 to 12. I used a bathroom scale and pumped the rifle slowly and deliberately
Pumps………Effort (lbs.)
3……………….23
4……………….24
5……………….25
6……………….25
7……………….25
8……………….27
9……………….26
10……………..26
11……………..26
12……………..26
Trigger pull
The single-stage trigger pull is the same no matter how many pumps have been made. The trigger on the test rifle breaks at 5 pounds 14 ounces.
Summary
Now we know what to expect from the Legacy 1000. I’ll test it for accuracy next and I’ll use the open sights that came on the rifle. If I see some potential I may mount a scope or dot sight, as well.
So, 8 pumps is probably the “Sweet Spot” for velocity vs. number of pumps?
OP and BB
Funny! I was just thinking about the same thing; to me it looks like after the seventh pump the gain in power starts to diminish and the pumping effort started to increase. I would stay with seven and keep an eye on it as the gun breaks in.
Being basically lazy, it just seems like multi-pumps are just too much work for me. Please do not get me wrong. For a young newbie, this thing may be just the ticket. The problem I am having is that both my grandson and I are way beyond this. This may be interesting for us to play with one time but will not likely hold our interest much longer than that.
I do have to admit that the consistency of this air rifle is nice. Let us see how she dances.
RR,
Exactly. Let us calculate how is the efficiency of this rifle – takes 12 times with average force like 25 lbs to pump it and you get less than 14J out of it. Compare this to one break barrel load cycle with even 40 – 50lbs but once… You need at least 4 times more energy to pump it than a standard springer requires for one shot. It is for me also no real option.
There is one feature / advantage of a multipump that you can’t get on a springer–variable power from the same gun. I can shoot at 10 yards, quietly in my basement with 3 or 4 pumps and then take it outside and smash targets or squirrels at 12 pumps. Or, I can compensate for range by increasing the number if pumps. Plus it is a good upper body workout. Just ask B.B. I heard Popeye has a multipump, too! But he has to eat spinach when he cocks his Hatsan Uber Magnum springer.
Roamin,
You may make mistakes by shooting. But always the same mistakes. Does it really help you to have variable power? You need to know more ballistics for each pump amount. It is already enough to compensate the distance (how good can you estimate it) and wind issues for one to first think before he shoots. Multiplied with “now I got 7 pumps” makes it a bit difficult at the end.
The pcp regulated power is more to provide certain power or amount of shots. Depending what you prefer it makes sense. If you have one shot – actually I will tend always to pump as less as possible, never go for full power practically. Consider shooting 100 shots with 12 times pumping for each. 🙂 Check this – 1200 pumps for 100 shots. Hahaha you know where to find me 🙂
Hi everybody,
this is something that I keep wondering about. It seems pneumatic (as in SSP and multi-pump) airguns are less efficient than spring airguns.
This gun makes 13 joules with 12 pumps. A Diana 34 easily generates 20J when you cock it once.
Another good example might be the Weihrauch HW45 and HW75. They are exactly the same size and (in my opinion) need roughly the same effort to cock. Yet the HW45 is quite powerful for an air pistol its size while the HW75 is on the low end of the power spectrum.
Intuitively, this seems strange. In a pneumatic, you create air pressure directly, which is then released directly. In a springer, you store mechanical energy in the spring which is then converted into air pressure.
I would expect the conversion of spring energy into air pressure to be “lossy”. Reality seems to disagree, however.
I can think of two reasons why this might be:
1.It might be a “swept volume” thing. On a springer, the end of the piston can slam into the end of the chamber. On a pneumatic, this wouldn’t work, because it would be impossible to pump the thing.
2. Metal springs might compress more “willingly” than a volume of air or have a different (more linear?) pressure curve. This may or may not be a different way of stating what I said for #1.
Have we ever had a blog about this topic?
Stephan
CptKlotz,
what an interesting comment !
I agree about the swept volumes. That’s gotta make a big difference. 🙂
Here are my additional thoughts and imaginations:
One projectile rides on expanding air while the other is driven by displaced air.
Besides, wouldn’t a spring made of nothing but air have to be softer than a steel spring?
So, if the energies were the same then, I imagine the steel spring to be the faster, more explosive energy transfer method, while the pneumatic system would be slower, eg require a longer barrel for efficiency.
Like I said, these are merely meanderings of my mind… 🙂
Stephan,
At the end there is energy conversion during a shot cycle. The springer with piston compressing the air rapidly will work like adiabatic transformation. There is a pressure maximum which is higher than the compressed air (slowly) will have if you would use the piston and squeeze it. The whole transformation will be more efficient in this case. It means relative low energy needed to put the spring in a tension compared to energy outcome on projectile. The temperature will raise high for a short time which gives you extra pressure win, than the discharging air will cool rapidly and pressure will go down fast. You don’t need a long barrel.
Interesting it is when looking at the working point of high pressure pcp’s. At the end you would like to know how much energy you put in each shot and what you get at muzzle (kinetic energy of the projectile). Using a hand pump you will lose a lot of energy pumping it. Using air compressor non human powered you don’t feel how much it is at all 🙂
Very general outcome and observation: from the adiabatic transformation high pressure peak (when piston hits the air pillow and jump back / hit the cylinder bottom end) makes the springer more efficient when using light pellets. Think about the dieseling, the temperature peak may be very high during compression cycle (you get more pressure from not so much air during decompression but only a short peak). Springer does not take advantage from a long barrel. The PCP or CO2 does – there is a highest possible pressure in the tank and a lot of it. The whole distribution process, turbulence, energy lost during “coming out” through the system, the hammer-valve characteristics etc. You may have same air tank and much more stable shot count when everything is fine tuned. This is my first parameter for the pcp efficiency – how much energy you can get out counting all shots energy until is over (I mean stable shots are important). You can see there are guns with lots of shots and those with not so many stable shots using similar or even same air tak volume and pressure. A very complex topic, very interesting. You can fill the barrel with relative low pressure but the whole volume until the projectile leaves the barrel. When the barrel is longer you will be more efficient.
For a springer in .177 cal you can get up to 40% efficiency, some more – about 50% – 55% you will get out of .22 cal. It is more efficient cal. The springers have too less air volume to really operate on higher calibers efficient, it means .25 is a real max and over. You will not be able to run .30cal or more using a “normal” springer. So when shooting your 30 J springer in .22 you can say you need 60J for each shots coming from your muscles. 100 shots – 6kJ. So one pizza might give you like 700 shots or more 🙂
It has been far to long since high school physics, and we NEVER got this kind of analysis back in ’64/’65. In my less educated view. one has a very high pressure instantaneous release of pressure as a fairly violent release, verses a more prolonged push of a lower pressure. The former benefits from a shorter barrel to negate the drag of friction while the latter would potentially gain form the longer thrust impusle?
I am a break barrel/springer enthusiast since the late 80’s. I have had a couple of pumpers and, in point of fact, learned to shoot on a Benjamin pumper in the early 60s at my uncle’s farm. Having shot both, let me have a springer every time; it’s just too much work to do all that pumping for each shot. I prefer the consistent “one and done” rather than all that fervid pumping (and the noise it makes).
So…in the end…I’ll admit that I’m an old curmudgeon set in his ways and not inclined to invest thousands in compressors and all those high-pressure bottles and such. BTW, I used to wear that kind of thing on my back in the fire department and don’t want all the stuff one needs to do it for an air gun.
Springers have their own peculiarities and limitations, but don’t need all kinds of apparatus to work – other than pellets that fit the bores and are stable in flight. Of course, they require scrupulous maintenance and sighting systems can be a REAL problem, a PITA, in a word, due to the nefarious double-recoil of a powerful spring or ram. But…once conquered, the consistency lasts for decades. Just ask my ’89 WEST GERMAN RWS/Diana Model 36 that just keeps going and going and going after tens of thousands of rounds….
tomek,
PCP?
YOU enjoy the shooting and leave the Pumping to us/them/it!
shootski
Hehhe Shootski I almost do not shoot PCP’s… But it would be a nice picture to have a pumping team for me 🙂 You know pumping iron? I would make it PUMPING AIR. 🙂 Ok I’m drifting now 🙂
Why I almost not shoot pcp – because I have go pump this thing. When my shooting is like 2k – 4k pellets a week the pcp’s generating in average like a 12 shots 😀
tomek,
I paddle to eat more…even Pizzas!
I shoot to have fun these days; helps to make up for all the shooting that was almost unbearable!
You get 12 shots from a PCP!!!! I get 4-5 from my .308 and 2- from my .458 and .58 granted with way more Joules.
shootski
I never go over 8 pumps on my multi-pumps. I have a smooth bore Daisy model 35 that shoots very well at 6 pumps. One might find that a multi shoots well at less pumps. The Daisy 35 and 880 are super easy to pump anyway.
Different “strokes” for different folks. When I can, I prefer a hand pump to a compressor.
I’m all in on anniversary and commemorative airguns but I was disappointed with this one.
It did not come with a metal receiver, so I passed on it. No big loss, I have a 2100B, Legacy 1000 and Remington Airmaster 77. I put all the best and the metal receiver in the Remington and can always paint the Legacy gold. I believe that 1000 was the FPS possible with light weight pellets. A lot of power for a pumper.
And yes, one of the screws easily stripped out when I reassembled the plastic receiver. A recognized problem after switching to plastic.
B.B.
I thought pneumatic air rifles are supposed to be quiet. Guess not!
-Y
Hope everybody has a lovely weekend and gets all the Xmas shopping done.
Yogi,
Multipump pneumatics and PCPs are the loudest of all air guns, springers the quietest. The reason so many PCPs are quiet is solely due to the integral silencers on so many of them. Take the moderator off of a Marauder, and I would expect it to be almost as loud as a .22 LR. Pumped 12 times, my Steroided Sheridan Bue Streak is absolutely as loud as a .22 powder burner.
A springer might seem loud when you shoot it, but the shooter is hearing the spring and piston right up against his shoulder and head and next to his ears. Ten feet away the same air rifle is pretty quiet, typically. The exception might be if it sends the pellet supersonic, which produces a loud “crack.”
Michael
Michael,
You are right. The air pressure leaving the springer barrel directly after the pellet is coming out (discharge noise) is not high – with a standard pretty long barrel. When you make it just as short as it is still accelerating the discharge noise will be much higher. The springer efficiency is based on adiabatic transformation with high pressure peak (due to short term high temperature rise) but overall air volume is pretty low and the discharge noise with high volume of the whole barrel is low. PCP can give you one liter air pushed out of a long barrel (high volume) still on a high pressure level and it goes PAAAAFFFF!!! I was also amazed how loud it might be. We need also to look at the sound barrier – going over 1Mach is really loud. Springer does not make it very often, PCP may do it much easier.
tomek,
ONLY PAAAAFFFF?
I get some KABOOMS!
LOL!
shootski
Shootski,
For sure, I need hearing protection to shoot my unshrouded .22 Evanix AR-6 Hunting Master.
Shootski,
You don’t even know how loud I can be. I can explain to my boys (6 and 10 years old) what to do in the 120dB(A) range 🙂 They told me I needed a muffler, and I just bought a megaphone to be just as loud without screaming. Yeah.
shootski,
Look below roughly 7 or 8 posts. I provide a humorous observation about vintage saxophones. You will definitely be able to appreciate it.
Michael
tomek,
Now this is what I call a coincidence. In school I played guitar in a punk band named Adiabatic Transformation! (O.K. Just kidding.) That science stuff goes way over my head most of the time.
Michael
Michael,
The sense of humor is the best way to determine intelligent species. Just like having 5 or more cases of beer in the garage so the wife is not able to count them anymore 🙂 it works!
I do hope that I am forgiven for this, but I am going way off subject right now.
BB,
Right now, Pyramyd Air has a screaming deal on Norma pellets. Knowing how I put accuracy way over speed and power, would this be a good buy for me or should I just stay with what I know works. In other words, would you take advantage of this deal?
https://hardairmagazine.com/airgun-deals/airguns-pellets-under-1-cent-each-in-this-pyramyd-deal/
RR.
I’ve tried them in my Maximus .177, HW 100 .177 and Diana 54 .177. No better and often worse accuracy. I would stick with what you know works for each gun. FX pellets are rebranded JSB’s and a bit cheaper. I’ve been going to H&N Field Target Trophies and Barracuda match because they are cheaper and just as accurate as JSB or AA’s in most of my guns.
RR,
When I tested them the accuracy was mediocre.
BB
I do seem to recall they are a waste of good lead.
RidgeRunner,
At 16 tins (5600 pellets) for under $30, if I were a reloader, I would check to see if that is less than the current rate for scrap lead. That sort of thing is not uinheard of. One cent coins are worth less as legal tender than they are as scrap metal.
Here’s a joke for you, although as a saxophonist shootski might smile more reading it. Two or three weeks ago I was reading a thread about different values for used band instruments. 100 years ago most trombones sold were “C Melody” horns because one could play piano music without having to transcribe. Well, they are practically unusable for today’s music and playing. Some guy found one in a basement or garage and wanted to know how much a “used, old C Melody sax was worth toaday. The first response was, “Whatever the going rate for scrap brass is.”
They do have limited value as wall art in dive bars and casual restaurants like TGI Fridays and Chilis.
Michael
Michael,
Transposition takes care of any mismatches.
There are many C instrument out there for sure and they seemingly still sell to someone?
Since i played Soprano, alto, Tenor, and Baritone Saxophones i learned how to transpose at a level just like my sightreading…i doubt that i’m still at that level since i haven’t play in a group in years.
shootski
shootski,
I think most C Melody saxes go unsold these days.
In the early 20th Century many homes had a small piano, a dime store parlor-sized guitar, and, thanks to the Hawaiian music rage, a ukelele. Add a saxophone that can play piano sheet music melodies without transposing, and a family has a small band and endless evening entertainment. Sheet music sales were through the roof until LPs came along.
Michael
If I can put together enough for free shipping and the 4 for 3 deal, I’m planning on buying them for breaking in airguns. If they also happen to shoot well in an airgun, that’s a bonus! But for less than a penny per shot, they will do for breaking in guns.
Norma had a good reputation for firearm cartridges. Too bad about the pellets. All I have heard is inconsistently inconsistent.
Once upon a time, in a far off land…
RidgeRunner, I do the buy-4-for-the-price-of-3 thing at Pyramyd…but I stick to pellets I already know work in the guns I have; I spent a looong time (and lots of $$$) figuring out what works best in each airgun (spoiler alert: at the end of the day, some type of JSBs worked best in most of the springers, pneumatics, and even the CO2 guns). The pellets I buy are not the cheapest, but they are consistently reliable for accuracy; the peace of mind I get from knowing that makes them worth the price. Good shootin’ to ya! 😉
Dave,
Roughly three pellets for one cent! For close range plinking, I thought, why not? So I did the buy three get one free with the four packs. That, in an order which came to just over the free shipping threshold, was my bargain for the week.
Michael
“Roughly three pellets for one cent!”
Michael, I had to do a re-read; when I saw “pellets-under-1-cent-each,” I didn’t realize they were THAT much under 1 cent…yes, for plinking, that is a great deal! 😉
Yep, with buy three get one free, the price of the four-packs, and if your order qualifies for free shipping, that is 5600 pellets for $29.97!
Awesome! 🙂
Just found a nice dual CO2 Barra 1866 Lever Action bb / pellet rifle, 600fps, and it has a golden ‘metal’ receiver. Nice looking.
Cost more granted, black is lower priced, but it is a must for my lever action collection.
Thanks for the link RR. Don’t believe it was there yesterday.
Bob, Yes looks promising. Also note that Barra will produce a .177 rifled barrel and .22 cal rifled barrel to convert the .177 smooth bore. And on down they plan to release a .22 cal rifle
Following this one since the Walther lever action with rifled barrel is no more.
Doc
Doc,
Have the gold and barrel conversion in the mail. They seem to be into the old west thing for now with their two syn six shooters, the Schofield and the multi pump version lever action.
Sometimes it looks like companies are dropping airguns as soon as the initial sales start to drop off.
BB,
Wondering if, at the end of the section on testing BBs with 5 pumps, if the value for the retest on 12 pumps accidently had the order of the numbers flipped around. It reads 673, when the original test value was 760. I would have expected a comment if the speed fell off 90 fps . . .
Have a great weekend all!
AlanMcD
Alan,
That is the velocity I recorded on 12 pumps with a BB. I’m looking at my records now. I agree it looks odd, but that is the number I see. Maybe I need to run this one test again. Not now, though. I’m working on Monday’s report.
BB
BB-
Any chance you could include testing an alloy pellet to see how close this MSP gets to its rated speed of 1000 fps? Thank you. Have a good weekend everyone.
paco,
I could do that, I suppose.
BB
BB,
Just talked to RR about this pumping. Is it a good idea to think about the efficiency? Look how big differences there are. Recently I read a bit about the dark side efficiency – a bit different story to calculate than a standard springer. I would be delighted to see a topic where you go through all types airguns regarding their efficiency. It is just this engineering thing 🙂
tomek,
I don’t shoot for efficiency, any more than I buy pellets based on price. To me a multi-pump is a fine way to relax and unwind.
BB
BB,
That’s fine for me 🙂 A clear statement. It is just interesting how different the power managment inside airgun may be. At the end, you are right, doesn’t matter.
B.B.
Concerning the test of the Crosman Black Diamond bbs, any reason for the strange drop of velocity on pump 10?
8……………….717
9……………….734
10……………..716
11……………..745 no air left after shot
Thanks,
Doc
Doc,
Nope. That’s just what happened.
BB
Interesting method for testing muli-pump pneumatics (MPP).
I choose a pellet and work my way up from lowest practical number of pumps to the highest shooting groups as I go. The best number of pumps for that weight of pellet is determined by accuracy rather than velocity or power. You can usually hear a noticeable, abrupt increase in muzzle blast when you have pumped more than the optimal number of strokes – the pellet has left the barrel and the extra pressure is wasted as noise.
For my 392 I have a light pellet for plinking that is most accurate at 4 pumps and a heavier one for pesting that prefers 6 pumps. No idea what the velocities are, never checked.
Cheers!
Vana2,
“You can usually hear a noticeable, abrupt increase in muzzle blast when you have pumped more than the optimal number of strokes – the pellet has left the barrel and the extra pressure is wasted as noise.”
Totally agree with your observation Hank.
Back before i moved to the Dark Side it would mean a dive into the valve (volume, balance, and FLOW) and also the post valve air path to see what could be improved to get more and earlier pressure rise. Decisions on barrel length could also come into play IF practical.
shootski
I’m little off-topic. I have been considering getting a springer and looking at Air Arms TX200. I read thru the various posts on this site. I ran across the blog of installing a Tony Leach 22mm kit. In that blog Tony recommended Lucas Red-n-Tacky as a replacement of the more expensive Almagard 3752 that BB usually uses for spring lubrication. I have looked over the product data sheets and found two differences on the grease in question. The first difference is Almagard has a Timken OK load of 70 lbs vs the Red-n-Tacky at 60 lbs. The other difference is the base fluid viscosity: Almagard 11.7 cSt @ 100C vs Red-n-Tacky 18 cSt @ 100C. Those were the differences I found, but another close substitute for Almagard is CRC Driller Red grease. The differences are the Driller Red has a Timken OK load of 80 lbs and a higher dropping point of 550 F vs Almagard of 540 F. All three are highly resistant to high temperature water washout and are very sticky. Hence the grease stays were you put it and would be good for lubricating the main spring. The dropping point temperature differences are insignificant to the operation of the spring piston assembly. The significant difference in the Timken OK load, for the Red-n-Tacky would reduce its maximum load carrying capability. So having said all this, I would go with the CRC Driller Red grease if a spring grease is needed. But any of the three should work very well if you have one of them on hand. When I looked at the price on Amazon the approximate delivered price: Alamgard $38, Red-n-Tacky $16, and the CRC $11. The advantage of the Red-n-Tacky you can buy it in a spray can, 3 oz tube or the standard 14 oz tube. The others are only available in 14 oz tube or larger, think 5 gallon pail or 55 gallon drum.
FYI I am currently in the Philippines so I am a few hours earlier than the rest of the USA.
EDIT: This was an answer to tomek’s detailed explanation above. Seems I replied to the wrong post…
Holy smokes… that is a lot to unpack. I remembered the term “adiabatic” from loudspeaker tech, but I had to look it up. It seems to mean “quick transformation without heat loss”, which is just what you described.
So, it seems the violent compression in a springer gives a quick, hard kick and doesn’t give the air time to cool which is efficient, especially with light pellets. I suppose even without dieseling, the springer would still win out.
The HW75 is fairly quiet which probably means it uses the available air pretty well. In contrast, my Umarex Colt 1911 Government A1 CO2 makes a fairly loud pop. It would probably shoot faster with a longer barrel (not an air powered pneumatic, but similar concept I think).
Thanks for the explanation,
Stephan
Stephan,
Exactly. The energy transformation in a springer airgun ist quick and there is not much temperature exchange outside the system. All stays inside. It means that the high pressure peak at the beginning is the most energetic in the shot cycle. High speed compressed air will be hot and get more pressure, this kick is what a springer does the best. I observed the pellet skirt being pushed in by a springer in the way pcp does not do. Springer is like a hammer hit. Imagine that the whole story begins and is all about when the piston is about 3mm to reach the end.
Good discussion tomek!
Thanks for the details! …Thinking about this.
Hank
Off topic, a friend shared this interesting video of a rifle with a quite ingenious magazine system; no pumping required.
https://youtu.be/G97eYE92y8s
B.B. and Readership,
Tomek has done a fantastic job of whetting your appetites for what follows. I promise no real heavy math!
Adiabatic
Changes in temperature caused by the expansion (cooling) or compression (warming) of a Mass of air with no exchange of heat.
Adiabatic Process
A process which occurs with no exchange of heat between a system and its environment; in our case the containment vessel, valve, Transfer Port, or barrel.
To keep it from being heavy on the mathematics I’ll share it as a function of our atmospheric phenomenon that is easier to grasp than the (Thermodynamics) of the internal ballistic process.
(dry adiabatic) lapse rate is 9.8°C per kilometer.
And since density of gases is really just another way of expressing pressure, we can say that the air pressure of the earth is very dependent on the height (elevation) at which you take that pressure. The good news is that down here in the troposphere where we all live and breathe, the pressure is pretty much a directly linear function of elevation.
Altitude vs pressure up to around 12 km which means this is pretty much for the first layer of our atmosphere known as the troposphere.
The relationship is very close to linear for the first 4-5 km. You can see that the pressure drops about 10 kPa for every 1 km in altitude rise. After this linear region, it gradually changes over to more of an exponential fall off in pressure as the altitude reaches to the boundaries of our atmosphere.
For more depth:
chembook.org/page-nonav.php?chnum=2§=8
There are some interesting on-line calculators that you can play with without using your Slide Rules, Spread Sheet programs, or Scientific Calculators:
https://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/
A few minor Mind Palace aides:
Do NOT think of HEAT or PRESSURE as something you feel but rather as molecules moving rapidly at different rates against a thing (Brownian and Kinetic Motion) or that pressure is just a squeeze. That kind of thinking gets in the way of comprehension that at this level it is more about vectors.
shootski
Shootski,
I think we will meet and not speak at all, like this one:
-… … and this is like that. (Shootski explained it till bottom end)
– ohh…mhhhh…, yeah you are right. (tomek thought about it and it was like he said)
Tomek,
Perhaps we can meet on the banks of the Neckar and stroll the Philosofenweg and think about airguns. I used to kayak from Stuttgart to Heidelberg often and always did a turn on the Weg with my hands behind my back….
shootski
Wouaaaaw – you are really deep in kayak. I’m a bit “Ruhrpott” – essen 🙂 Please let me know when and where.
tomek,
You know I did cheat!
There are nineteen or so Schleusen (Locks) between Stuttgart and Heidelberg and without some easy way around them you get slowed down. Luckily there is(was) quite a bit of freighter traffic on the Neckar which allowed me to go through the Locks and also wakes to surf for a free ride most of the way down and back up river. In the warm weather a Radler ( called them a Paddler) was always a welcomed drink.
shootski
Far be it for me to interrupt and return to the original topic at hand, but I notice that there has been no mention of my favorite pumper rifle, the Seneca Dragonfly MK2. This pumper is by far the easiest to pump and it is quite accurate as well. BB, I believe that you referred to the Dragonfly as the best new air rifle of the 21st century. Thus far, I would certainly agree. Orv
Ok, for some plinking fun, today I shot my newest acquisition: the world’s most accurate dart- or bolt gun. 🙂
My aim point was the middle of a regular dart board. I set it up showing the reverse side, you know, the one with concentric circles. When I shot my old Gem-style, 4,5 mm calibre (0.177 inches), smoothbore break-barrel long arm, from 30 metres distance (~ 33 yards), out of five little bolts, I only lost 2, Hurrah ! 🙂
So I moved 10 metres closer and didn’t lose any more bolts.
In fact, over 20m I scored with every shot !
Who can better a 12 cm grouping (~ 4.7″)?
Who can score more than 32 points, eh?
Who cares? 🙂
I had fun, you know, shooting was moorish like eating peanuts… 🙂
Oh no! It won’t let me edit my previous, AGAIN ! Grrr… 🙁
I oopsed because I did not mean “moorish” but ‘moreish’, sorry.
hihihi,
Nice!
And fun too!
We can almost see the smile reaching to your ear!
shootski
hihihi,
Great shooting, looks like fun.
Don
hihihi
Looks like fun. Bolts / Darts are a blast, especially at 5 meters with a pump airgun.
Just curious, what is the FPS of the Gem. Looks like 4 bolts grouped at about 2 inch or better. Curious to what 10 bolts would look like 🙂 W
Where you using the Kvintor bolts or another brand
Kind Regards
jda001
Thank you for your comments, gentlemen. You’re right, for me, it is all about fun, seriously. 🙂
jda001, I aim to ascertain answers and as the forecast is favourable, tomorrow will be the time to test for speed and see what scattering 10 darts do.
By the way, well spotted (!), the darts or bolts, are indeed made by Kvintor. 🙂
I bought mine 3 years ago via ebay UK, from the seller “Tackle The Outdoors” ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/251006840589 ).
Are your 3 airguns for darts all smoothbores?
hihihi
Yes, right now I’m using the following: DX 17 pistol , Crosman 760, and Daisy 35. All three are smooth bore. The only issue is that I need to muzzle load the bolts in both the 760 and 35. I shoot the DX 17 at 3-4 meters, the 760 and 35 at 5 meters – One pump.
Kind Regards
jda001
jda001,
my .177″ (4,5 mm) Kvintor darts averaged 398.7 ft/s (121,52 m/s).
The range of speeds, (from 427.1 to 364.1 ft/s) spread over 63 ft/s (19,2 m/s) and is probably mainly due to the variable fit of the darts. I only measured those that, once loaded, stayed near the breach end of the barrel. Some darts fell all the way through. 🙂
10 darts, shot from 21.87 yards (20 m), made the below pictured, ~8.5″ (216 mm), grouping.
jda001 knows, but for those readers who may wonder:
None of the above measured ‘facts’ can give any indication of the pleasure that I derive from shooting these little pointy thingies. 🙂
Or how pleased I am, when I go to collect them and they’re not just all there but actually on target! 🙂
I am still amazed by how powerfully this very easily cocked, little old airgun, buries the darts. 🙂
Also, there is a certain niceness about them asking to fly again. 🙂
hihihi
Sorry for the delay in response, day job keeping me busy. Looks like a blast at 66 feet. I think the optimum is 225 to 250 FTP for 5 meters shooting. Would love to find a Break Barrel with that spec.I tempted to now try 10 meters at three pumps. Darts are fun and very satisfying to let “fly” Nice to me another kindred spirit.
Kind Regards
jda001
jda001,
thanks for your kind words, however, I am merely one of B.B. Pelletier’s latest converts. His enthusiasm for shooting darts, or bolts, has infected me such that I, for the first time, deliberately searched for- and knowingly bought a smoothbore airgun. 🙂
Another first for me is, having to lament excessive power in an airgun, not because of precision issues but retrievability of projectiles. I would prefer to see the darts on target, not inside. 🙂
I like the idea of shooting darts over indoor distances but not with my Jean Marck !
I wonder from what what materials targets were made a century ago? So far I’ve failed to find any information online. 🙁
I might start with upgrading my cheap rolled paper dartboard to a sisal one, you know, like B.B. Pelletier’s…
———
By the way, when I went to retrieve some bushy-tailed darts (called “Quality Rifle Darts” by Germania), I got the girly giggles… 🙂
hihihi,
I wonder if 14th and 15th Century Moors might have used smoothbore, dart-firing, matchlock arquebus rifles? ;^)
Michael
Michael,
before my neighbour complained about the noise, I dabbled with muzzleloaders.
But not for exploring history, as in re-enactment, but purely for the unique and relaxing joy I derived from this
free to adults (in France),
messy,
relatively slow rate of
inaccurate fire (compared to airguns)
which I fondly remember as very loud bangs and
wonderfully smelly clouds. 🙂
All projectiles were lead round balls that I retrieved and re-cast.
I only used percussion caps and flints to ignite the black powder charges, ie I have neither knowledge nor experience of slow matches.
I was shooting more like a musketeer than an arquebusier! 🙂
With other words: dunno. 🙂
Ahhh…you’re close to enabling FM into awakening and shooting his .58 muzzleloader.
FawltyManuel,
well, you know what they say about use or lose!
I dread to think of the internal condition of mine. You see, I was all about using food grade oils and greases, which worked a treat to manage black powder fouling. But now, certainly my revolvers’ cylinders seem seized, hmm…
———
I commend John L. Fuhring’s thoughts on black powder guns. His words were my overall guide.
For example, I learnt that grease between propellant and projectile makes for a load that only leaves soft fouling. 🙂
( https://geojohn.org/ShootingMobile.html )
Tried penetrating oil/solvent to get parts moving again? Maybe something along the lines of Marvel Mystery Oil; surely an equivalent is available in France. That handsome percussion revolver deserves to live and shoot again, hihihi.
FawltyManuel,
penetrating oil or solvent are good ideas for when I get around to some maintenance, thanks. Actually I am hoping that it’s just a drying/ thickening of the lubricants that’s the current problem and not corrosion. 🙂
Sadly, the noise issue for my neighbours has convinced me to stop my black powder plinking. After all, I have to live next to them and harmony is important.
Besides, even the relatively small .31″ calibre muzzleloaders like the above pictured Colt Pocket, with a small charge, make my ears ring without defenders. 🙂
Luckily, I have plenty air powered alternatives to choose from. 🙂
———
On the basis of, I’ll show you mine if you show me yours, ie your .58″ calibre, erm, is it a Hawken rifle (?), here’s my muzzleloader picture of extremes (look closely)… 🙂
Uh, late reply regretted – FM’s “piece” is a .58 cal percussion Zouave-style rifle-musket; it is an Italian-made replica by the Antonio Zoli & Co. – it is in storage so here is an image from the web.
Who knows, may retrieve it and fire a celebratory salvo at midnight to welcome 2024.
FawltyManuel,
thanks and “very nice”. I’m happy you have a quality and precise muzzleloader. And everything else to make it go too. 🙂
Looks like your New Year might commence with an almighty BANG, ie what a great idea – but only if you’re still sober then! 🙂
Moreover, that’s a nice M43-type Feldmutze you are wearing there, hihihi. Or so it seems to FM’s wobbly eyes.
And it seems WordPress puts replies/comments anywhere it wants to, at least when FM uses his “mobile device.”
FawltyManuel,
your observation is correct.
I like headwear and bought my M43 12 years ago when I was after a cap with a peak but not in a baseball style… 🙂
(they can be had via places like this one : https://www.epicmilitaria.com/german-ww2-militaria/helmets-caps/field-ski-caps.html?limit=36 )
Imagine your eyesight, were you to de-wobble it?! 🙂
FM managed to achieve Chuck Yeager-quality vision in his youth with hard contact lenses. Sadly, had to give them up due to dry eyes, which eventually led to an eye infection. Opthalmologist said “no contacts of any kind for you.”
FawltyManuel,
WOW, I didn’t know Chuck Yeager was as eagle eyed as you !
Imagine the pilot you could have been, had the various vision challenges and adventures throughout your life not deflected you away from aviation?!
Vision is precious to me and yet mine’s gradually lessening: gotta make the most of what’s left, eg for starters, I need to spend more time away from this ipad… 🙂
———
PS apparently Mr. Yeager experienced more than wobble-vision when he rode some rattly rockets in a rush… 🙂
B.B. and Readership,
I forgot to mention that the calculator for pressure drop i gave the link for above is perfect for finding your initial (approximate) Regulator pressure setting for a given muzzle velocity.
shootski
On the lighter side,
My daughter says someone needs to invent a smoke detector for me that shuts off when you yell … “I’m just cooking!”.
Told her it wasn’t me. Rasin bread just burns too fast in the toaster. Hate it when it’s your last slice left.
Bob M,
Do you have a heatgun? You can toast that raisin bread and watch it until it is done to perfection. You can also do that over coals or open fire with one of those campfire toasting things: https://www.amazon.com/Campfire-Basket-Grill-Broiler-Handle/dp/B003L7OVHC/ref=asc_df_B003L7OVHC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198061703654&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4637061959123769086&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007528&hvtargid=pla-349187108809&psc=1&mcid=4b17a61705d43685a7e6c1161c86d830&gclid=CjwKCAiA1fqrBhA1EiwAMU5m_wZ_FuxyTR5eqYHulpy2QX3jbBUP7TRfihdHU-DM5eZ1yHoUKqwJ1hoCoCEQAvD_BwE
Great for grilled cheese sandwiches and other stuff too!
shootski
Shootski,
Thanks, I can always depend on you for quick simple solution.
Thought about turning down the toaster timer knob but I could not find anything on how to do it.
Bob M,
Always thinking outside the Toaster! Lol!
shootski
PS: I HATE BURNT TOAST…or needing to smell the burnt residual sugar icing when toasting my waterbagels.
Shootski.
Believe it was one of my grandmothers said burnt toast charcoal was good for cleaning out your gut?
Right in there with acidic morning spit on wakeup applied every day will kill a wort. That works for sure, with no scaring!