This device allows the controlled swaging of a round barrel. The adjustable roller located at 4 o’clock is gradually adjusted inward as the rifled barrel turns.
This report covers:
- Pellet hardness
- Casting pellets
- Pellet rifle barrel wear
- Bottom line about barrel wear
- Tendency for choked barrels to stick pellets in the bore
- Summary
Today I complete my answer to Elmer Fudd about his questions regarding barrel chokes, pellet alloy and barrel wear. I listed the things I still need to address at the end of Part 1.
Pellet hardness
Pellet rifle barrel wear
Tendency for chokes to stick pellets in the bore
Pellet hardness
Let’s start with pellet hardness. We know many pellets are made from pure lead — or lead as pure as it can be and still be worked by the pellet-forming machines. Other pellets have antimony mixed in with their lead and antimony hardens lead, but also makes it flow better in a liquid state, and by “better” I mean that it fills out bullet molds more completely. Casting pure lead bullets requires the metal and the bullet mold to be extremely hot, while adding around 2-3 percent antimony allows the metal to be 150-300 degrees cooler. You don’t have to cast fast because the mold doesn’t need to be so hot. And the bullets drop from the mold with sharp corners, unlike pure lead bullets that drop out with rounded edges.
A reader asked if I cast my own bullets and I didn’t answer the question because I wanted to wait until this report. I have been casting my own bullets for almost the past 60 years. Why? Because I can’t buy the bullets I need. This is why I mentioned in Part 1 being so surprised to learn that my alloy was wrong for Trapdoor Springfield bullets.
Typical cast bullets for sale are called “hard cast” which means they are alloyed with antimony. The bullet casting machines can be operated much faster when the bullets are made from harder alloyed metal — but they lead the bore something terrible! They also fail to fill the bore completely and have to be at least one-thousandth of an inch oversized, which exacerbates the bore leading.
Bore leading is when the bullet metal bonds with the steel in the barrel in a smear that is quite difficult to remove. In the book by J.S. Wolf — Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine, the author talks about cleaning the barrel of a Trapdoor. He says if it hasn’t been cleaned properly it can take dozens of cleaning sessions over many days to remove all that is deposited there. Hard-cast bullets are at least partly the cause of this.
Casting pellets
This topic was not asked but a reader did comment about casting pellets. I have one suggestion for that reader and anyone else who considers casting pellets — don’t! Many years ago (50?) the Beeman company sold a pellet mold that was made in the UK. It was very attractive to airgunners who are always trying to save money, including yours truly. But guess what? It doesn’t work. Want to know why? Let’s remind ourselves of something H&N told Dr. Beeman in the late 1990s — that pellet manufacture had reached its zenith. But they were talking about the pellets that they and other manufacturers made on precision swaging machines. No commercial maker casts pellets then or now — they just weren’t/aren’t uniform enough. Cast bullets, on the other hand, are often quite good. Only in the realm of the big bore airguns is there any crossover and I personally shoot the softest lead bullets I can — both bought and cast.
This is the reason I become so frustrated when people who don’t know any better call bullets pellets just because they are shot from airguns. A .45-caliber slug that weighs 200 grains or more is not a pellet. I don’t care if you launch it in a catapult slingshot — it’s still a bullet. The same people are so careful to call an arrow a bolt if it’s launched by a crossbow. But anything that comes out of an air rifle must be a pellet.
Pellet rifle barrel wear
There is so little wear in a pellet rifle barrel that it’s almost not worth mentioning. But for this report, it has to be mentioned.
There are target air rifles owned by airgun clubs that have shot millions of rounds over their lives. About 20 years ago European club airguns coming into the US market for cheap prices. A well-used FWB 150 or 300 might bring $150 when it came out of a German airgun club. I own Haenel 311 and 312 target rifles that came from East German government-run airgun clubs and there is no telling how many pellets they have shot. Their powerplants may have been rebuilt several times but the barrels are original.
Airgunners living in Europe still have connections to these club airguns and they do still show up from time to time. Here in the US we were seeing guns like the Daisy 853 popping up in sales from organizations like the Civilian Marksmanship Program. In fact, that is where my Daisy 853 came from. I bought it from a seller on Gun Broker who bought them in bulk from the CMP and resold them at a small markup. I even rebuilt the powerplant on that rifle for this blog, but the original Lothar Walther barrel that may have fired a million rounds (who knows?) is still going strong today.
Bottom line about barrel wear
The bottom line is — airgun rifled barrels do not wear out. They can be damaged by too-frequent and improper cleaning but you’ll never wear one out. This contrasts with firearm rifled barrels that do wear out. Rimfire barrels can last over 100,000 shots if low-speed lead ammunition is fired, but if high-speed and jacketed bullet are fired the wear happens much faster. Centerfire rifle barrels shooting jacketed bullets have a useful life of 5,000 rounds or less.
Tendency for choked barrels to stick pellets in the bore
A choked barrel should never stop a pellet. It shouldn’t happen — ever. If it does, something is wrong with the powerplant. In a CO2 gun there may not be enough gas to push the pellet out. In a spring gun the breech seal could be destroyed, allowing air to leak out of the breech. But the choke of the barrel should never be able to stop a pellet in the bore.
I have stuck bullets in firearms before. I once fired a shot in a Colt .45 Single Action Army (SAA) revolver a second time after a squib round (a cartridge with little or no gunpowder) had launched a bullet halfway up the barrel. I was shooting as fast as possible and got ahead of myself. Both bullets did come out of the barrel and the ejector rod and its housing also came off and hit someone standing close in the stomach.
This is what happens when your trigger finger works faster than your mind. This Colt Gen II SAA barrel is split from the muzzle to the threads.
Summary
In this short series we have looked at the sizes of bullets as the relate to the bore of the barrel. We have also looked at the alloy of lead bullets and lead pellets. We looked at pellet skirt sizes and how they can impact both velocity and accuracy. We discussed choked barrels and discovered that there aren’t as many of them as we thought. And finally we talked about barrel wear, learning that in airguns it is miniscule.
As happens frequently in this blog the comments made by the readers were just as valuable as the reports themselves. My thanks to all who helped.
B.B.
What about the higher end PCP’s that use easily replaceable barrels?
Just this past week, the semi-pro PCP shooters at the range spent 1/2 their time cleaning their barrels.
Supposedly the new FX’s need a super clean barrel. Yes they are shooting slugs,.25 or .30 I believe.
-Y
Yogi,
I’ll defer to 45Bravo on slugs. He has just had the experience I talked about with the 100 mpg carburetor and he plans to discuss it a bit in his next Avenge-X installment.
Cleaning barrels? Why? Olympic target shooters typically never clean their barrels. I’m thinking these guys are shooting too fast and are leading their bores.
BB
BB,
You had me scratching my head for a minute there about the Olympic target shooters.
Yogi,
This sounds like a real good reason to stay away from FX airguns.
RR
If you go to any PCP airgun competition, 80-90% of the rifles will be FX’s.
By PCP competition I mean anything over 20 fpe and longer distances than springers could ever shoot….
-Y
Since I live towards the right coast and am not rich, I do not see that happening. Most of those competitions were based on the FX in the first place. Daystate and other very expensive air rifles are starting to make inroads though.
I will just stay up here on my hill and kill feral soda cans.
Yogi,
I’m not a semi-pro PCP shooter.
Do these individuals inspect their FX bores or do the just ASSUME that the fall of in accuracy is caused by a leaded bore?
I have shot .25 and .30 caliber (and much larger) PCPs for decades and used dead soft Lead/Pb bullets at and around transonic muzzle velocities.
I have Lothar Walther barrels and Quackenbush barrels (i have NO experience with FX barrels of any type) i inspect my barrels with a bore scope for leading; I haven’t found any in thousands of rounds.
Maybe Hank (Vana2) will weigh-in on FX barrels.
shootski
This is on the brand new FX platform. When they shot older FX platforms they did not need to clean the barrel. On the new one, they say that have to clean and clean…
RR-Out of my league too.
Anything past 55 yards is infinity to me.
-Y
So we can cast slugs, but not pellets. Got it!
OP,
That’s pretty much it. Oh, the forums all talk about casting pellets, but if you read what they write you see they either “plan on doing it some day” or they tried it and gave up.
BB
I’ve just a question for clarity. You’ve been singing the praises of “Bullseye Benjamin” pellets. Of course, I purchased eight tins (only paid for six, of course again). Crosman pellets are pretty hard, as are the Benjamins, made by Crosman. Are these going to be the best pellets for me to be shooting in my rifles? For the most part, my rifles have mainly shot JSBs, AA pellets, and H & N s. There’ve been a few others, but that’s it for the most part. Just a thought, Orv.
Orv,
As far as hardness is concerned, the “Bullseyes” should be fine. I personally have not had much “luck” in the accuracy department with any of the Crosman/Benjamin pellets, including the new .177 “Bullseyes”. This is why I still have some of the boxed 7.9 grain Crosman pellets.
Orv,
Come on, man! How could I know that? You have to try them in each airgun to know. That’s all 45Bravo and I have been doing with them. You never can know until you know, ya know?
BB
Orv, I am going by memory and also guessing a bit. But I think that only the higher velocity guns are typically the ones that tend to lead the bores. And now that BB has cleared up the questions regarding choked bores and stuck pellets, I wouldn’t hesitate to use them in any of the guns (none are very high velocity) that I own.
BB,
Thank you for this interesting series.
I remember an endless discussion on one of the Polish forums about choked/unchoked barrels. Some experiments were even done, such as cutting off the choke and re-crowning the barrel end, to compare the results… Accuracy was very similar – in this case. It was Weihrauch barrel. At the end, everyone had their own opinion and the discussion died down because “I believe” was said more often than “I know”.
I understand the point of the choke this way: at the end of the barrel the pellet will be sealed and with the correct barrel crown, when it leaves the barrel, the air burst will hit the pellet in a regular manner, always the same. Thanks to this, the pellet will not be pushed aside and accuracy will be maintained.
If the barrel is of good quality and the correct crown is made, it should also work well without a choke. And it often does! 🙂
I think there’s some “tradition-like” philosophy behind the whole choke/no-choke story after all. Some manufacturers do it always, some sometimes or not at all…
tomek,
“I understand the point of the choke this way: at the end of the barrel the pellet will be sealed and with the correct barrel crown, when it leaves the barrel, the air burst will hit the pellet in a regular manner, always the same. Thanks to this, the pellet will not be pushed aside and accuracy will be maintained.”
Tomek thank you for giving me this opportunity!
I need to kill this conception of pellets being pushed off course by the “AIR BLAST” from behind them.
The gas charge behind the projectile in an airgun is expanding and cooling in spring piston (especially) guns the acceleration in the barrel has long ended so how is it that the gas molecules are able to accelerate and catch up with the projectile?
There may be some few very heavily tuned for power PCPs that may “Make the Rule” by having projectiles that accelerate to the muzzle but the laws of physics say the much lower density gas will not retain the inertia as well as the much more dense Mass of the projectile.
What do you think? Does shootski just believe this or does he know this based on Physics?
shootski
Shootski,
I think you are correct.
My RAW has an asymmetric silencer and is very accurate. By building a muzzle break with a hole or slot on just one side the effect of the air on the pellet after leaving the barrel could be exaggerated to see the affect on accuracy. I doubt it is a significant factor for most airguns. A multi-pump would be a good platform for the test.
I designed the valve in my low pressure pellet gun to stay open till after the pellet leaves the barrel. The back pressure holds the valve open till the barrel has free air flow. I did this to achieve maximum pellet velocity. My testing is incomplete but seems to show no effect but the air and pellet velocity just as the pellet leaves the barrel are probably near equal at a valve pressure of 150 psi.
Benji-Don,
“By building a muzzle break with a hole or slot on just one side the effect of the air on the pellet after leaving the barrel could be exaggerated to see the affect on accuracy.”
I almost jumped on your idea as being a good test…then PICKY shootski jumped up and whispered in my ear that would just be making a lousy muzzle on the barrel and what would that prove or disprove!
Sorry!
shootski
aka: PICKY shootski
Shootski,
It is my understanding that an absolutely critical part of accuracy is the muzzle of the barrel. It is the last bit of barrel that the projectile has contact with and uneven contact can destabilize the projectile. It does not have to be fancy, like a step crown, just uniform.
Is that a reasonable assumption, or have I taken what I have read out of context?
Bill
billj,
I don’t have any direct personal knowledge since i have never recrowned a barrel.
I do know that there are exceedingly few things that are Absolutes.
I believe Tom has covered this in a blog, Review or News Letter.
Perhaps you could do a search.
shootski
Shootski,
Thank you for a good discussion. What I told about the choke theory is… theory. Someone had a reason to do it, I understood it like that. Or someone thought that the pellet hole in the paper will be smaller and you could easier take the 10.9 score?… To be honest I think same way, the magnum springer is accelerating the pellet up to 12 – 14 inch MAX of barrel (.177), not any more. Medium and low power springer below 10 inches. This values will be smaller for larger cal. Strong PCP may have still enough pressure and air speed at the end to make a difference. (enough to compare the discharge noise)
NEVERTHELESS I did some experiments on the barrel crown and it makes a difference. I think this topic is complex and very depending on the airgun system. At the end there is physics and no magic, all isoteric “muzzle brakes” are useless in 99% cases.
Thank you very much BB. I think you and the others have answered all my questions very well. Pellet sizes and hardnesses are varied. These answers should help us find the right pellets to use.
OK, here I go, diving headfirst into a subject I really have very little experience with.
When I first started in airgunning, I had come from the world of powder burners and it was imperative to clean your bore, so I would periodically clean mine. I have since seen some videos where the reviewer would initially clean the barrel on a new airgun to remove the “gunk” from the manufacturing process and have seen and read others that apparently do not. Does this help? I have no idea. Ask BB.
One thing I do know a little bit about are these “old gals” hanging around at RRHFWA. Any of that “gunk” is long gone from the bores of these “old gals”. I do like to use a little Balistol on the bores of the airguns that may be sitting for a good time between uses to keep them from rusting. When I do that, I like to run a clean patch or two through the bore to ensure the coating is very, very light. My experience has been that you do not need much.
BB has stated in the past that leading is not really a problem until you achieve very high velocities, of which only a few airguns can achieve. That is not a danger with any of mine. I learned a long time ago that high velocities and accuracy usually do not go hand in hand.
As far as wearing is concerned, the bore on my 1906 BSA looks great. So does the bores on these other “old gals” here. I do not think that you folks are going to wear out the bores on your airguns in your lifetimes.
Now, onto the world of “slugs”. I do hate the use of that word with airguns. I much prefer “cast bullets” or “bullets”. Ah well, the marketeers have latched onto that word, so I guess we are stuck with it.
I have only recently entered into this world when a .457 Texan LSS decided to take up residence here at RRHFWA. I do not have very much experience with such, but if leading or wear becomes an issue with this gal, you may be assured you will “hear” about it from me and this gal will be finding another place to live. She might anyway if the .25 Armada works out. If you really want to know about shooting “slugs”, you should probably be asking shootski.
BB,
I think I know the answer to this, but just for discussion. Is it safe to assume that even the ‘hard’ pellets won’t damage the really soft barrels like the Benjamin 392?
On the C9 I bought yesterday, I tried to post pics several times from home last night, and it just wouldn’t work. That was on my phone, I usually come to work early and read the blog on my desktop.
Anyway, if anyone cares, here are a few pics. Sorry for the poor quality, I was in a hurry to get pics and put it away before I took my better half out for our weekly date. S#101609, or maybe 101809 hard to tell.
Overall I would call this good condition. It is missing the rear sight, there are a few paint marks on the pump handle. They look like reflected shine in the pics, but it looks like white paint in person. The scope is almost unusable. It has to be mounted forward to clear the bolt handle, but the eye relief is so short that I can’t get my heard far enough forward to see anything but a small circle of light in the middle of the scope. Overall, I am pretty pleased.
CB
Edit. I guess I can only upload 1 picture. So here it is.
Not bad for a bowl of soup….
Thanks.
P.A. has 4 pellets in 20 cal. JSB 13.73, JSB 15.89, H&N FTT 11.42, & H&N Barracuda 13.58. Do any of you guys shoot C9 in 20 caliber? Do any of you know if any of these are likely to be duds, or would you recommend just buying one of each to see what it likes?
CB
CB,
Since your Sheridan Silver Streak is identical to a Sheridan Blue Streak, here us a 4-part blog to read:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2019/07/sheridan-blue-streak-part-4-2/
BB
Perfect. Thank you.
As long as it is considered a meal and as long as you do not try to source soup from this guy.
https://youtu.be/ryNxl-lpOME?si=1G2lk55lxNC1wQkC
Captain Bravo,
The metallurgy says improper/compulsive cleaning and DIRT will do more damage to those Brass bores then the hardest possible Lead/Pb alloy; remember anything over 50% other stuff and it is no longer a Lead/Pb alloy.
Given that most folks shot Benjamin or Crosman pellets (ashcans mostly) out of Brass barrels for years shooting the “hard” pellets of today shouldn’t cause you to lose any sleep.
shootski
The one accessory still missing for the .58 muzzleloader is the “minny” bullet mold – it is somewhere in the bowels of Casa FM; not too broken up about that since based on prior readings – correct your friend here if he is wrong, BB – Tom has discouraged casting one’s own bullets. Totally get that, unless you own something like say, a Trapdoor Springfield.
FawltyManuel,
https://mrhollowpoint.com/58-cal–12-gauge–20-mm.html
shootski
Thanks for the reminder, shootski. Have looked at Mr. Hollowpoint’s offerings before. Used to get a lot of the black powder supplies from Dixie Gun Works; they’re still around but Hollowpoint offers a lot of choices in bullets.
BB, you said, “The bullet casting machines can be operated much faster when the bullets are made from harder alloyed metal — but they lead the bore………”
I found that if you portect the base of the bullet leading is much less of a problem. I normally us a corn meal filler or a gas check. It works well.
Mike
Mike,
I should have mentioned it but the hard cast bullets also lead the bore of revolvers where the velocities are under 800 f.p.s. I won’t shoot hard cast bullets in a .45 single action.
BB
Big Iron,
I was going to reply with something about gas checks, wads, filler and you beat me to it Mike. The things we put between the bullet base and the propellant charge change the burn rate of the charge and some say it also physically buffers the base of the bullet from gas cutting and molecularization of the intense heat and pressures generated. You no doubt already know that about firearms but some of the Readership have no or limited experience with firearms.
Which brings me to how much of the “knowledge” about internal ballistics that is foisted on airguns is unfortunately (maybe actually fortunate) NOT APPLICABLE.
I even catch myself thinking like a firearm operator too often when it comes to airguns! The thing(s) to be really careful about are the COLD gas (PCP, CO², Spring Piston, and multi pump) we deal with and the substantially lower chamber pressures…although that is changing incrementally in PCPs.
I still find that Dead Soft Lead/Pb bullets (slugs) shoot clean in my PCPs even when leaving the muzzle at transonic velocities.
I use a bore scope to confirm this and not just the symptomatic approach of cleaning when accuracy (seems to) fall off.
shootski
Late and off topic,
Just got an email from PA about the new Umarex Komplete NitroAir gun. WOW. A new exciting way to power a PCP (Nitrogen air cart that looks just like a 88-90gr C02 cart). But at $23 for two carts and getting 30-35 shots each…….hmm…Hoping it does take off and lead to more of this (and cheaper carts).
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/umarex-komplete-nitroair-pcp-rifle?m=6251
Doc
Dock Holiday,
Nitrogen molecule is a poor choice over plain air because: Nitrogen (N²) has a mass of 28 grams per mole, Oxygen (O²) has a mass of 32 grams per mole. Worse still is that the Nitrogen molecule is larger than the O² molecule.
That means plain air flows better than pure N² in a PCP.
The cost of compressed air as well as availability is reasonably stable unlike the cost of compressed N² just to add to the issues.
One last item: i get 100 cu. ft. @ 4,500PSI for US $8.00 this N² is going to cost an advertised price of US $23.00 that gets you a tiny volume amount at 3,600PSI.
MIGHT work…but why are they buying at Big Box Stores you might ask.
shootski
Shootski
“That means plain air flows better than pure N² in a PCP”
But since plain air contains almost four times as much nitrogen as oxygen, how much of a difference could it make.
I think that the real issue with this “new” idea is the cost. $12.50 for 35 shots is about $.36 per shot. That is only going to get worse. I have read about some using nitrogen but it was more about getting a bottle with 6000psi in it. Haven’t really heard much about it since the cheap compressors have appeared, tho.
But like RR,, my forgetter seems to work better than my rememberer, so I can’t recall any of the other stated pluses about using nitrogen.
Ed
edlee,
Ed think of a Marathon race. The wheelchair athletes are off like a shot and never look back, the fastest runners move out quickly after them, and the slower pack runners bring up the rear but they are all in the Marathon messing up the roads.
The other pluses written about bulk N² in airgun Forums is that the N² is dry; but so is my Dive Shop air. The most important thing that the Forum writers don’t cover is that there are different grades of bulk N² (and other gases) and the particulate impurities can be a substantial concern for our use.
shootski
Shootski
As a wheelchair user who participated in a Marathon race (half marathon, actually) the reason we chair users never looked back is because everyone else was in front of us.
As I remember (??) part of the hype was that being that the molecules of N were smaller, they would flow faster, increasing fps while using the same amount of air/gas.
Even were this the case,, I don’t see that the “roads ” would be much more or less crowded considering the quantities of runners/molecules involved.
People do odd things,, including a few who decided that using oxygen was a good idea (since that is what they had at hand). Some were lucky enough not to destroy their rifles and injure themselves. Some were not.
Ed
edlee,
“As a wheelchair user who participated in a Marathon race (half marathon, actually) the reason we chair users never looked back is because everyone else was in front of us.”
I worked or volunteered at many marathons and Triathlons while my kids were growing up and my experience was more like this: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-wheelchair-racers-outpace-olympic-distance-runners-but-not-sprinters/
Many of the wheelchair bound competitors i observed from my Pilot/Rescue Kayak did exceptional in the swim leg of Triathlons and Duathlons.
I have helped handicapped folks with kayaking a sport they frequently fall in love with.
I found them all very Inspirational.
shootski
Always wanted to try kayaking. I could generally find my way into one,, but couldn’t get out. Canoes are an issue, too.
I think that being injured late in life had something to do with that. As did the wear and tear I had inflicted on my shoulders by that time.
Still, haven’t given up on the idea, yet. There’s still time,, I’m not quite 80 yet.
Ed
This is similar to the high end cars touting using nitrogen to inflate their tires to reduce the pressure changes due to temperature. But if you get down the the actual numbers dry gas and water saturated air the difference between the pressure at the extremes that a tire might see -100F to 300F (yes I actually performed the calculations on several readily available gases). The difference is not visible on even a high accuracy (0.1% Full scale ) gauge. The water saturated air pressure varied significantly when compared any dry gas. I no longer have the program to perform those calculations nor do I remember the values. But I had considered using nitrogen in my BMW’s tires but after performing the calculations decided that it was a waste of money. Just use a moisture separator, at the most ($200) versus going to the effort to get and cost to rent a Nitrogen bottle.
Similar calculations could be performed on various gas flows but a much harder set of equations. Since viscosity and density varies with pressure and temperature. Due to my experience with supercritical CO2, this can get really complicated when dealing with supercritical flows near sonic velocity. Think of a turbocharger using CO2 as the fluid instead of air/exhaust gas.
I suspect that shootski is correct, it is just advertising hype.
Sometimes I miss those days, but then I had less time to shoot and had to go to work 5+ days a week.
Someone with the time and resources could do an experiment with a PCP rifle filled with various INERT gases just to see if there is a measurable difference in shot count, velocity, accuracy, etc…
Keyword INERT!
Mike
bmwsmiley,
We filled the tires on aircraft with N² to avoid the danger of explosions caused by the tremendous heat generated during launches (takeoffs) and Arrestments (landings) along with contaminants almost always found inside tires and on wheels.
Mike there are folks that use Helium (INERT and tiny molecule) to charge their PCPs. The leakage problems are a nightmare due to those miniscule molecules.
shootski
shootski,
Helium is not a molecule. It’s an element, so it’s an atom.
BB
B.B.,
Here on Earth.
Some Places:
https://www.astronomy.com/science/space-is-the-place-for-impossible-molecules/
shootski
shootski,
Yes, but most PCPs are located on Earth. 😉
BB
BB
As far as we know.
Ed
B.B.,
And here i thought we ALL thought that shooting airguns was Out of this World! ;^)
shootski
The big selling point of the new Umarex Komplete NitroAir rifle appears to be the (you guessed it) velocity capabilities versus CO2. Watch the video demonstration by Tyler and I think you will agree. I think that if they can get the price of the cartridges down to where they are competitive with CO2 cartridges, they might have a viable product. I for one would not be willing to pay such a high premium for the nitrogen cartridges.
Elmer Fudd,
But Elmer… “I got my PCP!
I won’t have to buy a hard to work, fiddly, expensive pump! Or some more expensive compressor! Or some BIG Tanks to lug around like you always talk about!”
“This comes with the cylinder built in…WHAT i didn’t read that it is only good for 40 or so shots! Where’s it say that!”
“Well Elmer, I can always return it to the Biggy Boxy Store.”
shootski
Readership,
I found B.B.’s blog on barrel CROWNS:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/09/the-importance-of-the-crown/
tomek, you need to read it. The rest of you will find it important to understand that it isn’t just based on Tom’s opinion; he did some searching on folks that tried to prove it one way or the other with experimentation.
I think crowns are pretty on a barrel, don’t you!
shootski
Only if they are recessed “target” crowns?
ScottJ,
Never been one for fancy ends on my barrels.
But if i need a “target” my preference is for it to be down range a way. ;^)
shootski
“I think crowns are pretty on a barrel, don’t you!”
Aesthetics aside, this Baikal 46M is an accurate gun.
Elmer Fudd,
Mighty fine!
shootski
Thank you Shootski, I think I already read it 🙂
Form my experiments with re-crowning – had one air pistol where the proper crown made the accuracy better. It was a springer. Once I tried to “make it better” on my .177PCP and did destroy the muzzle part of the barrel. The accuracy was not there anymore. This was the worse “crown” example I have ever seen. I had to buy new barrel – and there were no barrels to buy! Imagine!!! I bought two last barrels in some small shop in Canada and this was shipped to Germany! Than I did the real crown on the CNC machine at work and there is great accuracy there.
I’m talkin only about my real life examples. What you can read on forums is … difficult to judge, sometimes.
Please look at the Weihrauch’s crown – perfect. FWB300S has the last part of the crown made after it was oxidize. So they think it is important part of the barrel I guess.
As I mentioned, I can only talk about what I did and what the effect was. My experience shows there is a difference – but I don’t have that much of this experience to know better 🙂
tomek,
It is a difficult topic and will no doubt be debated long after we are turned to dust.
shootski
I initially thought the same thing. The price of the gun itself is only $200, and it seems like you get a lot of gun for that, but the initial price of feeding it seems daunting. About 80 shots for $24. ($24 ÷ 80 = $0.30 per shot plus a .22 pellet = $0.34 to $0.40 per shot. But I think they are comparing the price to PCPs. This nitrogen gun is like a PCP starter gun without the pumps, compressors, and tanks. Let’s say you bought a hand pump for $100. You would need about 300 shots at $0.34 to even out the extra cost. A compressor would be more and a compressor and tanks would be even more.
I think this gun has a niche for the fellow who is interested in PCPs but is daunted by the price of entry. It could be set up as a gun that can be used for a while and then traded in for a PCP gun and accessories, and then refurbished if needed and resold to the next guy who wants to see what PCPs would be like.
What would be interesting is a system that would keep CO² at a constant temperature, despite the ambient air temp.
Roamin Greco,
I shoot away enough projectiles that i would go bankrupt in a few weeks buying disposable cylinders…
“I think this gun has a niche for the fellow who is interested in PCPs but is daunted by the price of entry.”
Roamin, i believe you have a bead on the target audience that the Marketing types think exists.
I might be wrong about the winds from time to time but…
If i were a collector of rare and unusual airguns i would purchase one of these pronto making sure to keep it NIB!
shootski
Shootski
There may be another niche for this gun. Some folks who own and shoot lots of airguns rotate them all to keep the seals happy. I am one who shoots a lot but only about once a month for any specific airgun due to closets over flowing with inventory. I may want one of these in .177 if accurate. I would be shooting about 300 shots a year. Cylinders would cost me 100 bucks. I spend that much at “coffee bucks” in a month.
Deck
Decksniper,
Perhaps.
Time will tell.
I will bet you would shoot more than 300/year if your’s proved fairly accurate!
shootski
Shootski
If MOA or better I’ll just skip a couple months at “coffee bucks”.
Deck
Decksniper,
I have a feeling if the production run is similar to the Komplete Nitro airgun that TP (Tyler Patner) shot you could get close to that MOA wish. I do my own pour over coffee or steam blast it with my Pavoni if i want to stay awake for days; just not before a shooting session ;^)
I really do hope this airgun proves to be an entry point for many to our addiction.
Merchants would do well to sell the replacement cylinders at near or actual cost plus Tax S&H for the first few months then raise the price in increments….
PAir could do some form of their buy X get 1 FREE.
shootski
Shootski
Hope P/A and merchants take your suggestion if the accuracy is there. I will be watching tests for this one.
Deck
Looking forward to BB’s critique and airing-out of this Nitro-Gun’s capabilities and flaws. Sticking to good ole air for filling purposes at this time which in any case is about 78% nitrogen. And now that somehow, somewhat miraculously, FM got the pressure gauge working again on the resident 3-stage Hatsan pump, more accurate pressure readings should help keep those PCP seals happy.
FM
Nitro Gun,,,, I like that.
If the NG sells more than a dozen , there will be someone making an adapter that will allow compresses air to be used very shortly thereafter.. I could see a market for a device that could make the bottles reusable, also.
It would all depend on whether the rifle is inherently accurate and also whether it is kept to a low price point. Those two things used to be mutually exclusive, but not so much anymore.
Consider what a boon to PCPs it would be if these bottles could be retrofitted to be reusable. Refilling your rifle in the field would be as easy as unscrewing one bottle and screwing in a fresh one. Just the same as now,, except for the cost per bottle.
Ed
edlee,
Nothing new under the Sun!
I recall the massive modifications to hpa (high pressure air) of the ’90s with Crosman 22xx airguns creating an entire cottage industry.
“Consider what a boon to PCPs it would be if these bottles could be retrofitted to be reusable.” At least in the USA that would run afoul of the DOT regulations.
I have a number of bottle guns that use the Paintball Aluminum cylinders 7, 13, 22 cu. in. running 3,000PSI with regulators. I believe it would be a less costly approach in the long run; sort of like the switch from CO² to hpa was seen back in the day.
shootski
Shootski
As I mention in another of my answers to you,,, people are odd. If they can, they likely will,, often to their detriment.
Ed
And then we have the oh so Tac-T-Cool Air Strippers. Do they increase the pellets accuracy? No consensus. However, it is believed that they can minimize barrel movement, be it ever so slightly, through even air distribution with high powered PCP rifles shooting long distance where it matters most.
Removed old link I had here.
I do believe they redirect, or disperse, noise, for the shooter at least. I have one on my Hatsan AT44. The final attachment to enhance the rifle with a Ruger 1022 quad rail installed.
So, the news is out. they found the original 30 something inch model of the Starship Enterprise, worth $800,000. to collectors. I wondered about the Mothership in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I know where it is, but how many others do?
At least I thought I did. Evidently, they moved it from a Smithsonian Institute Wherehouse to a, new to me, extension of the National Air and Space Museum, the Udvar-Hazy Center. Opened a little over 10 years ago. The model is an interesting assemblage of odd bits and pieces that fool the eye. Including an itty-bitty model of Robot R2-D2.
“Adam Savage Examines the Mother Ship Model from Close Encounters of the Third Kind!” on YouTube.