M1A1 BB submachinegun.
This report covers:
- I owned one!
- Uses 2 CO2 cartridges
- Magazine
- The BB gun
- Select-fire
- Plastic stock is realistic!
- Sights
- Is the description finished?
- Summary
Just a reminder before we begin. Friday is July Fourth, the American Independence day. It’s one of the four holidays I get each year, so today’s report will be posted until next Monday.
Today we look at an airgun that I know many of you will like—Thompson’s M1A1 submachinegun. This one is a BB gun and it’s one of the Umarex Legends products, which means it is very realistic.
The Thompson name is trademarked by Saeilo Enterprises, Inc., the parent of Kahr Arms, so I’m guessing Umarex doesn’t use it for licensing reasons. The title M1A1 was given by the U.S. Army in 1938 when they simplified the M1928 model for cost and production reasons.
I owned one!
I have only owned a few of the firearms that the Legends airguns are patterned after like the Colt SAA and the P08 Parabellum (German Luger). The Thompson is another firearm I once owned. That one was semiautomatic only and it was made by Auto Ordinance. If ever a firearm was unsuitable for me—that one was it. Why? The pull (length from the center of the butt to the trigger) was several inches too long.
When I pulled this one out of the box and hefted it I found it is exactly the same. Umarex has copied the firearm well, as they always do! The pull on this one measures just shy of 17 inches / 431.8 MM.
Uses 2 CO2 cartridges
This one uses two 12-gram CO2 cartridges, so factor that into your purchase. I remember from my days in the Army, guys could not keep their rifles off the rock-n-roll setting on their M16s. This gun will go through gas and BBs quickly!
Magazine
Most people think of Tommyguns with a drum magazine. The drum holds either 50 or 100 rounds of .45 ACP cartridges. It sounds great EXCEPT—there are several special procedures to be followed to load one. If you only plan to shoot one drum it is a great way to go but if you want to shoot more than one there is some learnin’ to do. I prefer the stick mag, which is what the M1A1 comes with. Also consider this—a 100-round drum mag for the .45 firearm costs over $900. A 30-round stick mag for the same ammo costs under $100.
The BB magazine holds up to 30 BBs in a single stack, plus the CO2 cartridges and the firing valve. It costs $55 and is essential to the operation of the gun.
They look cool but loading those drum mags is a chore!
The BB gun
Now let’s turn our attention to the BB gun we are testing. It is nearly 32-inches / 81.28 CM long and weighs 7 pounds, 10.3 oz. / 3.01 Kg. It’s a chunk! And that 17-inch pull plus the finger-groove forearm way out there means the weight is well forward of center. In other words, it’s nose-heavy.
My aluminum Thompson firearm weighed 11.5 pounds / 5.22 Kg., so by comparison the BB gun is a lightweight! But it doesn’t feel like one. Imagine what a steel Thompson weighs!
Select-fire
The BB gun can be fired single-shot, which is a real blessing when you need to chronograph the velocity. It possibly fires from an open bolt. That would mean the bolt handle on the right side of the gun reciprocates. If that’s the case you need to be careful of it during full-auto firing. The manual calls the bolt handle a pinch point so it’s something I will check in the test.
Here, on the gun’s left side you see the select-fire switch on the left and the safety on the right. The knurled button in the center of the picture is the end of the magazine release lever. Push up and the mag comes out.
Plastic stock is realistic!
I was amazed by how great the stock looks. It is plastic and it is hollow, but it looks like real wood. As for the hollowness, buyers complain about the overall weight, so they gotta cut back somewhere.
Sights
The sights aren’t adjustable but the rear sight does follow the military design of being both an open notch and a large peep sight. Believe it or not soldiers didn’t always spray and pray. They had to carry their ammo into battle and they weren’t shooting BBs!
The rear sight is both an open notch and a large peep.
Is the description finished?
There is probably more to tell—like how easy the magazine is to load and whether the bolt handle moves during firing. If I don’t find a lot more I’ll incorporate it into the other reports to keep us on schedule.
Summary
I like the M1A1 so far. It’s reasonably heavy and reminds me of my Thompson firearm in many ways. I just hope it performs like it looks.
Yes they do faithfully follow the features of the military version.
And to those that thinks the drum mag is cool.
Remember when the mag is full thats 100 rounds of 230 grain ball ammo you are carrying around on that already heavy steel & wood rifle.
With a drum mag, it hits right at 20 lbs fully loaded (9 kilos) thats sneaking real close to an M60 general purpose machine gun when empty.
Not to mention, when shouldered, that drum mag gets in the way of your left hand (for a right handed shooter),
Do I like them?
YES!
This is whats on my wall at the end of the hall between the bedrooms.
The power of Rub N Buff! (its a type of artist paint that you can use to make an object look worn.) they have many colors to choose from.
Happy Wednesday!
Ian
B.B.
Yes, but can it shoot the star out of the target?
Happy Birthday America,
-Yogi
Yogi,
It depends on whether the person running the booth is using a red marker or not.
I would just buy one directly – unfortunately, in Germany automatic is not allowed. This is the one and only thing which still holds me from buying one. I read only positive reviews so far.
I think the wood imitation is as good as on the Winchester (Umarex). It feels like a real one indeed!
I’m affraid about what will come – the big enabler! 🙂
I have not had the pleasure of hefting this. I can well imagine the very mass of this reduced the recoil to almost nothing. No wonder they went to the M3. Carrying this thing around may not have been fun, but when it hit the fan, I can well imagine this was quite nice to have.
What I have a problem understanding is why was the length of pull so long. I understand that will put all the weight forward to help keep that muzzle down, but great googly moogly that calls for some long arms. That would not be a problem for me, but this is most definitely not for short people.
“This is most definitely not for short people.” Yer short friend will second and third that. That is why he carries the MP40, Umarex bb version and the GSG-MP40 9mm semiauto. FM woulda have to stick to M3s, Stens, or PpSh-type sprayers back in the day. Helmet would have been doffed to the guys hefting a B.A.R around.
This is a good video on the use of Allied weapons by German forces in WWII – one of them was the Thompson.
https://youtu.be/WAeb1-bI5gA?si=n0iifUcuCPs6Xgfb
I am guessing the extra long length of pull is there to allow a shooting posture that accommodates the recoil of an automatic firearm. This looks to be an interesting series. I hope everyone (as applicable) enjoys the 4th of July celebrations.
The M1A1 “Tommy” gun was still in the armory on my first submarine until it was decommissioned in 1980. Even though according to wiki it was pulled from service in 1971. The other weapons in the armory were the WW2 issued 1911’s, M-14’s, and the 870 pump shotgun. Based on the wear patterns external and internal on all the weapons I handled, thousands of rounds were fired from each. The Tommy’s were only pulled out when we pulled into a foreign port. The 1911’s and shotguns were used for day to day security and watch stander qualifications, the 1911’s were so loose that hitting a man sized target at 25 feet was problematic even for experienced shooters. The M-14’s were typically only pulled out for shark watch when we had a steel beach day (barbecue and swim call topside in the middle of nowhere).
I never saw the Tommy guns after my first boat, but the other weapons were still in use on submarines and other ships when I retired in 1994.
Mike
“The Thompson is another firearm I once owned. That one was semiautomatic only and it was made by Auto Ordinance.”
BB,
A friend of mine had that same gun; while it worked OK for him (6′ 4″ inches tall), it was a stretch for me.
Hence, I tried it but didn’t buy it…the firearm, that is. 😉
Blessings to you,
dave
To Whom It May Concern: May the Fourth be with you, with all of US. Freedom is not free. FM thanks God the blessing to be living in a country where we are still, hopefully always, citizens and not subjects. It does require effort and vigilance to ensure that does not change.
Test picture. I may be blocked for some reason.
OK back on the blog. This gold Airsoft 1928 Chicago Typewriter above came out before the BB version. I got it to put in a presentation case to decorate my gun room, being the collector that I am.
Thought about painting it black or converting it to shoot BB’s, but no, it’s discontinued now and part of Airgun history, and I can always get this black BB version. And actually, I better do that now before it is discontinued as well.
It’s awkward to shoulder but it’s a Tommy Gun and feels much better when shot from the hip like any respectable Gangster would do.
And yes thats real wood and heavy metal.
Bob,
You weren’t blocked. What are you showing us?
BB
BB,
I tried to make an entry about and with the picture two times and was told I was blocked from “Pyramyd Air”.
Shrunk the picture down and it appears to have changed things.
I usually get a notice that the picture is too large before it posts. This was different. Big print notice … YOU ARE Blocked from Pyramyd Air.
I may have lost my log in looking for the picture? All is well now.
By the way, I have a Made in Hong Kong sticker on it. What about the one you have? Hard to imagine two companies making these but who knows.
Also I believe the 1928 models had the charging handle on top of the receiver with a cutout for the sight view.
Bob,
The label on the box mine came in says Made in Taiwan. But in this day of obfuscation it could be the Taiwanese are buying the core from Hong Kong and adding just enough to make their claim legal.
BB
King Arms moved from Hong Kong to Taiwan in 2015. They also issued the airsoft wood stocked M1 Carbine that became the BB version.
On their website “While working with the leading firearms manufacturers, we provide our patrons with a level of innovation and authenticity that can’t be found anywhere else in the airsoft industry.”
So they probably issued this BB version as well, but do they actually make it? And Umarex sells firearms through its subsidiary Walther and airguns with the cooperation of many firearm companies. Looks like only the industry knows who makes what for who and under what specifications. Obfuscation for sure.
Howdy BB, another great blog! Since you have owned several of the firearms that the recent bb guns and pellet pistols have been made to replicate I was curious if you felt that any were similar enough to use for practice and training? Obviously there is no bb/pellet substitute for shooting a firearm at the range with all the accompanying recoil and noise. However do you think they would provide good supplemental practice for someone? Especially (hypothetically) someone on a budget who wants to practice things like drawing and firing from concealment safely in their yard? Have a good Fourth of July, and God bless.
Howdy, McClain.
Yes I do think many of the replicva airguns are good for training. I train with the Sig P365 BB pistol myself.
BB
Just watched the P/A video on this and as much as I like full-auto stuff the rate of fire on this is way too fast.
And that goes for most if not all of these select fire airguns lately.
What the heck were they thinking designing this stuff. One super rate of fire airgun would be enough. A MAC 10 or 11 would be more realistic there, but it has for some reason been overlooked. The UZI pistol is another more realistic ultra rapid-fire pistol.
I have a hard core all metal green gas airsoft M11 and come to think about it, blasting biodegradable airsoft ammo makes more sense for outdoor use instead of steel BBs. It’s only for plinking fun anyway.
I’ll put a challenge out there for anyone to come up with a way to slow down the unrealistic rate of fire. It looks like 1800 RPM or 30 rounds a second. A full mag.
Didn’t stop me from ordering one, good timing, holiday sale with free shipping.
Bob M,
Tom wrote: “It possibly fires from an open bolt. That would mean the bolt handle on the right side of the gun reciprocates. If that’s the case you need to be careful of it during full-auto firing. The manual calls the bolt handle a pinch point so it’s something I will check in the test.”
BBs and CO² cartridge are in the “magazine” so each one would potentially need to be modified unless there is a reloading system located in the gun’s receiver. I would guess there is a spring involved and/or a loading Wheel/Lock/Reciprocating Bolt.
IF The power to run the reload comes from the CO² then restricting the flow of CO² to that part of the system might work or a stronger or weaker spring if it is a wheel/lock type or even some combination of all the above.
Boy O Boy… i’m not much help Shipmate without a schematic.
Shoot away rate sounds more like a mini gun than the pistol caliber machine gun it replicates.
Happy 4th!
shootski
Shootski,
So, I pull out the gold 1928 Tommy gun to look at the operating parts. No valve on the Mag? 450 shot storage? The bolt handle is just for show. It moves but does nothing? Totally forgot, it is an AEG Airsoft Sub Gun. Batteries go in the stock. Been a long day.
Bob M,
AEG means mayne a gear ratio reduction…but i know nothing.
Well at least the Happy Independence Day wish was workable ;^)
Watch out for the USMC forces they will shooting all your airguns!
shootski
Captain you asked for some information about the M25 and the bullet trap I (or many more before me) improvised. The trap holds well taking 96 joules shots at 10 meters. Although not very well arrayed I believe 5 pieces of garden hose can stop pellets of the specific power. I am planning to build a target box with 5 layers of the kind but with each layer being put either horizontal or vertically. Maybe with some loose silicone to keep them all in one piece.
I don’t have data regarding accuracy because I wanted a brake in period along with the Huma regulator I put inside. That’s the reason for ~100 joules power.
Quite backyard friendly now, with the provided silencer of course.
Bill,
Thank you for the update.
shootski
Enjoy the 4th all!
Off subject but some of you may want to know about my Stoeger ATAC Suppressor. I bought this rifle from PA when it first came out. It was highly advertised and I was just getting into the fantastic airgun sport., A life long firearm shooter I saw the inherent advantages of being able to shoot airguns everyday at home. I liked the ATAC but it was no match for accuracy vs my Diana 34 or HW30S. But after many years and thousands of shots this rifle is now delivering some quite surprising 10 shot groups at 20 yards. I got a 1 MOA yesterday using my strangle hold and FTT 14.66 gr pellets. It is the only airgun I own that wants to be held like an Mauser 98K. Even the long one stage spongy trigger pull is smoother and almost predictable. It delivers 15 fpe, Easy to cock and no resistance at closing this rifle is trying hard to convince me it is as accurate at 20 yards as anything I shoot. Well not quite but close. If you like the looks of it you may can get a good deal at a show or Ebay.
Deck
If you get a chance to see the rerun of Music & Might: An International Military Spectacular in 2022 at Norfolk, Va, it is heart stirring. Military musicians from a dozen countries are represented in the International Tatoo.
Deck
Happy Fourth of July to all Americans!
Siraniko
BB & Friends,
Looking forward to more details on this Tommy BB gun!
I hope it’s OK if I bring up something off-topic on this long weekend.
I bought a nice Crosman Mark 1 .22 cal Target Pistol from eBay and it shoots very slow. The gun is beautiful and is in almost new condition. It was made in April 1978, according to the serial number (47804…). It came with a CO2 cartridge in place, so I had to shoot the gas out. With the next cartridge, I added several drops of Crosman Pellgun Oil to the gas pathway, hoping that the oil would get parts moving better and begin to clear out any gunk inside that may be interfering with proper function. It helped some.
I can take it apart and clean it internally, but it would be neat if I didn’t have to. Do any of you CO2 experts, or even Mark 1 experts have any helpful advice to get the gun shooting better?
Bob M: you are the enabler who got me interested in these vintage pistols. Thank you! I’m very happy with this one! 😉
Enjoy!
Will
Will,
This is a question for Ian McKee/45Bravo to answer.
BB
Congratulations on the Mark 1!
You will find you can’t have just one…..
It could be a couple of reasons.
First of all the mark 1’s have tow power levels.
The first click when cocking is low power, the second click is high power.
If you are stopping on the first click, that’s the problem .
Secondly,
The barrel could possibly not be completely aligned with the transfer port.
I have a couple of blogs here about repair and resealing the Mark 1&2 pistols.
The other possibility, the pistols could have been left cocked for years, and the spring took a “set”.
Both can be checked at the same time.
Without going into the valve.
Just removing the outer barrel shroud.
Below I will include a link to the blog.
Read it carefully.
Paying attention to the last part about barrel orientation.
Is the set screw divot at the 12 o’clock position?
And check the hammer spring if it looks shorter than the one in the photo, you can stretch it some and regain the lost power.
But be prepared to buy another hammer spring, they are inexpensive.
If you have any questions, feel free to contact me directly at 45bravoairguns@gmail.com
Keep us posted.
Ian
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2020/02/crosman-mark-i-and-ii-reseal-part-2/
Ian,
Thank you for the information and the link to the report on the Crosman Mark 1 that you wrote. I found that the transfer port to barrel lineup was maybe a smidge off and I corrected that. The hammer spring looks OK.
I used up the second CO2 cartridge and put three fat drops of Pellgun Oil through the filter screen at the bottom of the cartridge socket. Pellet speed continues to improve, but it’s not to full power yet. There isn’t enough oomph to send a pellet through the barrel at low power.
I think I have to shim the barrel shroud to get the barrel to point straight. The shroud is visibly canted to the right. Has this type of canting been a problem for you?
This gun will be fun once it is sorted out. I feel bad that I’m using such a pristine collectable. I’m being so careful…
Thanks again Ian!
Will
If you are worried, get another one (watch for a good price), with some of the black paint worn off, tear it all down and reseal it (new valve and all) according to Ian’s guest blogs, and shoot it for fun. Resealing it is as much fun as shooting it. The only part that you have to be careful of is the hammer spring tension screw and the piercing lever can sometime develop a stress crack.
Roamin,
Thanks for the good advice. Ian said above, “You will find you can’t have just one…..”
Maybe you’re both right. I buy another worn one and make it a shooter and keep this one as my precious. I do love to fix ’em and I’m already this far down the rabbit hole. But that’s what I said when I bought THIS one! Oh my.
Ian got one once at a garage sale for $20, I think. I try to find them used and in reasonable condition for $70 or less. Maybe a little more if they are pristine or have the original box.
Here’s my pride and joy:
Thank you for the kind words.
I love to help people enjoy hobbies.
It’s a beautiful pistol and an excellent job in shooting. Congratulations.
Ian
Can you please send me photos of your pistol?.
See if you can show me what you’re talking about the cant of the gun.
While they are collectible. They’re also fairly common.
They did make tens of thousands of these they made them from 1966 to 1986.
They are just a very underappreciated Airgun.
They look good, they shoot good.
They have an adjustable trigger and an adjustable power and other than the grips. They’re all metal.
Even though they’re 59 years old now for the earliest ones.
Barring any major damage or Abuse, they’ll be around for another 59 years.
My email is 45bravoairguns@gmail.com
Ian.
I have not encountered the canting you are talking about.
Can you please contact me directly at
45bravoairguns@gmail.com
And include photos of the canting if you can.
Ian.
Ian,
Yes, I will contact you with photos. I will also remove the barrel again and roll it across a flat surface, to see if it’s straight. Your advice to limit how far to take it apart and what to investigate initially is appreciated.
I’ll write to your email address above. Thank you!
Regards,
Will
I would suggest you both share what you have learned with the rest of us. Thanks.
Ian got me into refurbishing these great pistols. In addition to Ian’s comments, some of these pistols had adjustable hammer spring tension. I don’t know when Crosman did away with it. Is there a little screw under the barrel facing forward? It is pretty soft metal, so I wouldn’t mess with it until you got the gun apart and get it turning smoothly. It may be hard to turn at first and you WILL strip out the screw head.
Thanks IAN, next time I order parts from Mike Baker, I’ll have to remember to get a few extra hammer springs.
Off topic, but recently I was called out on CO² face seals, though I admit my assumptions were wrong. Anyway, I saw this very interesting item on EBay today. A face seal cleaning brush and kit with instructions you can plainly read. This would be of interest to those of you with CO² guns that use a face seal.
https://ebay.us/m/7kM9I5
Hope everyone is enjoying the weekend.
For posterity, here are the instructions:
ALWAYS WIPE NECK OF POWERLET. before inserting in pistol.
The protective wax used on the Powerlet will adhere to the neck seal “O” Ring and in time build up to cause leakage which can be corrected by an occasional cleaning with the enclosed brush.
Insert brush and turn back and forth over the “O” Ring to clean. Make sure all foreign matter is removed.
Apply a light coat of machine oil to the “O” Ring.
If the “O” Ring becomes damaged change with enclosed replacement.
A common pin or other pointed instrument can be used to remove the old “O” Ring. (Caution, DO NOT damage groove in valve) Replace “O” Ring by inserting ring on an angle and pressing into place with the eraser end of a pencil.
Roamin,
Well I learned something from this. I was completely unaware of the wax issue. Gonna clean the necks of them from now on.
BB
B.B. you just made my day. Thanks.
Roamin Greco,
“…but recently I was called out on CO² face seals…” I believe that was me but i had hoped you would not have felt yourself as Called Out which certainly was not my intention.
I certainly have no desire to contribute to the trend of so many Blogs to slide into the morass that (UN)social media is and fast becoming far worse.
Enough is enough; i certainly don’t want it to happen here on Tom’s Blog!
Please accept my explanation of intent and accept my abject apology.
shootski
I should have put a winking emoji in there. No hard feelings at all. No need for an apology but it is appreciated. I have a pretty thick skin and I take constructive criticism well. Thank you again for the correction.
I consider you a true gentleman and a valued source of airgun knowledge and advice.
Roamin Greco,
I used to think i was honored by being Officially named a gentleman by an Act of the Congress of these United States…n.b. the usage of the Past Tense.
These days I prefer the simple approbation of my most worth peers.
Thank you,
shootski
:o)
Hi folks,
It has happened the Umarex Komplete has become an actual PCP airgun, guess it was expected to happen at some point, but here it is for 100 bucks you can add an air tank to your Komplete.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-pcp-conversion-for-umarex-komplete?a=20891
Mike
I saw an aftermarket one recently, but this makes it officially the most versatile PCP airgun: Nitrogen cannisters, CO² cannisters, CO² bulk fill tanks, CO² 12g powerlet adapters, High Pressure Air tanks.
Imagine someone could invent a self contained, screw in spring piston tube and lever for the ultimate survival gun. ;o) Please send me any royalties in the form of a cashier’s check. ;o)
Got this M1A1 delivered today.
Everything you could ask for in a quality replica. I think they may have actually sanded parts of the stock so it feels like real wood as well. Mine seems to have a darker wood look.
Noticed the barrel assembly had some slight movement. Sure enough, the two barrel mount screws forward of the mag well were a tad loose. And on the airsoft one as well. All the external screws could use a bit more tightening. Seems to be a normal thing with airguns today to avoid stripping on assembly.
Pulling the bolt back cocks it, however, it appears to do that at the half-way back position. Pulling it back any further seems to do nothing and it returns to the half-way position and holds when cocked.
It looks like full-auto operation, and semi as well, will not slam the bolt and cocking handle all the way back to hit the receiver. All that bolt free spring space likely absorbs all the recoil after it passes the cocking position. Not positive there but it makes sense to avoid internal damage and more noise. Works exactly like the BB M3 Replica grease gun. Another perfect replica.