Browning 800 Mag – Part 6
by B.B. Pelletier
Photos and testing by Earl “Mac” McDonald
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Well! A surprising finish to the comprehensive test of the .22-caliber Browning 800 Mag pistol. Surprising because of the strong finish the pistol made in Mac’s capable hands. But I’m getting ahead of myself, so let’s reel it back to the start of the accuracy test.
In part 5, Mac had tested the velocities of three pellets — RWS Superdomes, RWS Hobbys and Crosman Premiers. Now, it’s time to test all three for accuracy.
RWS Superdome
If I were a skilled storyteller, I wouldn’t put RWS Superdomes first in the report, but it was the first pellet Mac tried in the gun. I wouldn’t put it first because it turned out to be the most accurate pellet by an enormous margin. Sometimes, things happen that way, but you don’t know it for sure until you complete the test.
At 10 meters, 10 shots ripped through a group measuring just 1.38″ across the widest two shots. That’s with TEN shots at ten meters! With accuracy on that order, a fellow could draw down on a crow at 20 yards and expect to connect where he aimed. We already know the gun has the power to do the job. A six o’clock hold netted a point of impact at 12 o’clock on the 10m pistol bull. Sight correction would, therefore, be in order.
With the best pellet, the Browning 800 Mag is a valid hunting air pistol for small game at close range — provided you’re shooting RWS Superdomes or another pellet of equal accuracy.
All this buildup is necessary because of how the gun performed with the other two pellets. So, let’s move on to Hobbys.
RWS Hobby
At just 11.9 grains, the .22 caliber RWS Hobby pellet was the fastest of the three tested. But it wasn’t that much faster than the Superdome (536 to 502), and it developed less muzzle energy (7.59 to 8.12). So, unless it shines in accuracy, it’s not a pellet to consider.
And shine it did not. Ten pellets went into a group measuring 2.08″ at 10 meters. We know from the Superdome results that Mac can shoot, so the Hobby has to be rated as mediocre, at best.
That left but one pellet to test. The Crosman Premier.
Crosman Premier
In the velocity test, the 14.3-grain Crosman Premier pellet showed wild velocity swings. Mac determined that was due to the pellet being too small for the gun’s bore. One pellet even fell out as he was closing the barrel after loading. That was significant, because the 800 Mag barrel has a very strong detent that requires a swift and deliberate closure. What a setup for possible dry-fires.
But the group measured 3.08″ — an inch larger than Hobbys. Now, 8 of the 10 shots did cluster in a much tighter group, but with the wild velocity swings and possibility for dry-fires, I think the Premier may not be best for the big Browning — at least in .22 caliber.
The bottom line of the big Browning is that this is a powerful and accurate spring-piston air pistol. It clearly surpasses the Beeman P1 for power, and delivers the shots to the POA if you do your part.
Anyone had any experience with RWS HyperMAX .22 cal. pellets. Came across them on PA’s site while looking for something else. There were no reviews. Just wondering if anyone had tried them.
rikib
rikib,
We have the .177 but not the .22s. Very soon I’ll submit another order for B.B. for testing materials, so I’ll get the .22 HyperMAX so he can see how they perform in the .22 guns he’s tested previously. That way, we can compare velocity and accuracy against lead pellets.
Edith
Edith,
Thanks! Glad to hear B.B.’s back to typing (even if it’s two fingers 🙂 )! Those HyperMax seem awfully expensive. Hope they are worth it.
rikib
RikiB,
I’ve tried the .177 HyperMAX, not the .22’s. I’ve used them in quite a few different environments, including lower velocity CO2 handguns, mid-velocity CO2 rifles, springers, and magnum springers, and the results were always the same… I couldn’t hit what I was shooting at. They grouped the worst out of any pellet I tried in any gun I put them in, underperformed only by the cheap Daisy wadcutters.
What’s interesting is that unlike Gamo PBA’s, they have extremely tight tolerances and are stunning to look at (are you reading this, Ryan?). From a pellet-to-pellet variation standpoint, there is no reason they shouldn’t all go in the same hole. Even the packaging is easy on the eyes. But pellets have to hit go where you’re pointing them, or they’re useless. Well, maybe not useless… I’m sure Ryan or C-S could use them in some sort of collage or sculpture.
– Orin
Orin,
Thanks for that info!
rikib
ORIN- you must be kidding Gamo pellets are bad No 😉 ….:) wright now i am using RWS HOBBY!Ok send me your pellets and i will make collage 🙂 they are good for that ! PS for 631 they are perfect!
One mans inaccurate pellet is another mans beautiful work of art. I do want some of those hyper max pellets for the collection. I just hate how I need to buy at least two of everything. One to open and one to ooze over the tape sealed container. I have a pellet tin fetish. I got some FTS double gold’s, and I haven’t opened them cause I want to preserve the seal. I wish I could look at my beauties and keep the seal. Sigh…
-Ryan
OK RYAN idea how to make something from USED pellets SHOOT TO THE TARGET and then take USED pellets AND USE THEM FOR FISH SCALLES COLLAGE 😉 they will not be uniform but that s the beuty of it 😉
The only thing I’ve found that traps pellets without deforming them completely is a phone book. I could do that, but I don’t feel the need to shoot my beauties. I also don’t know if I could make art out of them. I’m really into doing nothing purposeful with my pellets. Once I’m rich, I’ll do it all. 🙂
-Ryan
Hey guys, just to add to your conversation, I have this gun in .22, it’s really the best shooting and hardest hitting pellet gun, or should I say pistol that there is in my opinion. And I can shoot 8 of 10 pellets in the same hole at 10 meters, but I do have a Truglo Triton 30mm Tri-colored red dot on it. And the ammo I use is the Gamo Match Diabolo .22 15.43 gr. Sometimes they will fall out when you load them, but if you pay attention, which one should always do when using firearms, you won’t dry fire a round. But these are not very expensive pellets, but if you’re going to shoot at 10 meters, I found that this wadcutter pellet is extremely accurate, hits very hard, a bargain for price, buy 3 and get 4 at Pyramyd AIR, I know you will love these pellets once you try them, so go check them out;
A. Mustafa Hakim,
Welcome to the blog.
Apparently the Browning 800 pistol was manufactured with different levels of quality, because I have heard from some folks that theirs are very good. But the ones I have tested have all been bad.
Come join us on the current blog.
/blog//
B.B.
I have recently purchased two Hatsan 25 Superchargers (basically the same pistol, this one being made by Hatsan for Umarex) and get much higher velocities from one over the other. It seems the slower of the two has an obviously damaged breach seal ring. I’ve ordered the replacement but have access to many different thicknesses of brass and stainless steel shimming but was wondering the thickness you used in the pistol you tested. .002, .003, .005, .010? Thanks for any help you can provide.
Stephen,
First of all, welcome to the blog! I did test a .22-caliber Hatsan Supercharger pistol in a 3-part test:
/blog/2012/12/hatsan-model-25-supercharger-breakbarrel-air-pistol-part-3/
I think you need to experiment with the shim thickness, as each gun will vary in many ways. I’m going to guess the thicker stock will turn out to be the best.
B.B.
Thank you for the quick reply. I’ll try different combos of shims and see what works best. I did check out the write up on the .22 Supercharger. You do a great job on all your reviews and the job you did on American Airgunner.
For anyone who cares about these things: B.B. typed this blog with his very own fingers 🙂 He’s back!
Edith
I very much care! Good to have you back BB! I am excited!
-Ryan
NICE!
Better slow it down, B.B., or Edith will have you out there mowing the lawn and hauling around yard waste. Maybe just let her think you can only type with one finger, for now. 🙂
– Orin
Orin,
I’m not going to browbeat him, but he needs to build back some muscle mass. Starting this weekend, he’s agreed to start doing some muscle-building exercises. We’ll start slow and easy. Don’t want to wear him out!
When the nurse comes to visit every day, it’s in her nature to help Tom when he tries to get up. I stop her from doing it. If you help a butterfly by cutting away the cocoon instead of letting the critter struggle to find its way out of it, you will prevent it from strengthening its wings and it will not be able to fly…and then it will die after a very brief life. Tom is my butterfly, and I’m strengthening his wings by letting him do as much for himself as he can. It’s not a lot, but it’s a start.
He’s been home 1 week, and his progress has been nothing short of phenomenal. Thursday’s visits with 2 doctors confirmed that! There’s no place like home 🙂
Edith
Edith,
You have put that brilliantly! I had been thinking of a long statement to make, but nothing could compare with what you have said! 🙂
rikib
Edith
Before you know it BB will be shooting 100 shot strings with Webley Patriots, pumping up PCPs to 3000 psi one handed, and throwing around male nurses like they were beach balls.
Excellent post today BB. Damn good typing too.
I know a couple of FEMALE nurses that can do that. Patients live in fear of them.
twotalon
Edith,
Ok, that’s creepy. I think I married your younger sister. Daughter, maybe? At the very least, a distant relative.
I’m very happy to hear that B.B.’s health is continuing to rapidly improve! Wait – that feels a little strange talking about him in the third person now that he’s back online, even if he’s not actively reading it.
B.B. – I’m very happy that your health is improving so rapidly!!!
– Orin
Orin,
I am reading the comments, but just not as often as I used to. Edith is still the main person there.
B.B.
Sorry Edith, but I think of Tom as more of a dragon fly or a carpenter bee rather than a butterfly 🙂
Fred PRoNJ
Edith,
Hurry! We need to see those before & after pics before he’s back up to where he needs pump an extra 100 psi into his side of your sleep number bed! 😉
AlanL
Don’t forget the kettlebell. It will produce a glistening god.
Matt61
As somebody who is, himself, trying to get back muscle mass after surgery and a long recovery (but not in a hospital bed), let me say it is no joking matter. Do the exercises, Tom. It matters!
pete
Edith,
You comment about Tom being like a butterfly is similar to something I heard in a movie. I don’t exactly remember which one, but it was good I think. 😛
-Ryan
Can anyone believe that ME of all people would be the first to post on the blog and it would actually pertain to airguns! 😉 I must be losing my touch! 😉
rikib
rikib
Good morning. How is that red dot sight working out for you?
SL,
Got it almost completely tuned in. Weather and wife (hehe) keep interrupting final windage adjustment. Elevation seems about right. I’m already thinking of longer barrel and laser. Also looking at 45lc/410 derringer so not sure where to put my money right now (not that I have it laying around)!
rikib
rikib
Very cool. Soon you’ll be shooting carpenter bees out of the sky. The Crosman 18″ barrel is only $14 or so but alas, other things sometimes must take priority.
For instance my 2 and 1/2 year old GE refrigerator just crapped out on me. On the other hand my mother’s refrigerator was purchased when I was in highschool, which puts it at over 20 years old.
I will NEVER buy anything made by GE again as long as I live.
SL,
My first wife and I bought a fridge when we got married in 1980. It too crapped a motor after only 2 years. I had the motor replaced swearing never to buy that brand again. (whirpool, I think). I still use that fridge and it hasn’t missed a beat since. I’ve gone through two beer fridges and am on the third, three hard moves and another wedding, but that old whirlpool still kicks. Seems like every once in a while a good product hick-ups right out of the gate. Wish the dishwasher was like that, new one every 5 years for the last 20!
KA
Thanks Kid Again for your reassuring words. It just seems inconceivable that a major appliance that costs over $1000 should have a catastrophic failure after less than 3 years with no warranty coverage. GE makes jet engines, but can’t rig a refrigerator that will last longer then your average light bulb? There are a multitude of other reasons to never buy anything from GE besides, but I will forgo this morass of political discussion.
As BB recently elucidated, (sorry AlanL) nothing manufactured by man is infallible. But when you are spending that kind of money, should you not expect some modicum of reliability? This was not a $400 cheapo special. I will buy a refrigerator made in Iran, out of Venezuelan parts, before I buy anything made by General Electric, which should be named Corporal Electric, at best.
GE is genuinely a crap-ass company. I should have known better. The next time I blow out the candles on my birthday cake, I will wish that they go out of business. Laugh if you want to, but it worked with Circuit City!! R.I.P.
Damn,remind me to stay off your list!Good job with short circuit city.They once refused to take back a blown subwoofer [bought their insurance]because the “tech” said it smelled burnt!I told him he wasn’t educated enough to speak to adults…..he really wasn’t.Doesn’t GE[generally expendable] realise that we remember when refridgerators lasted decades?
Good morning B.B.,
Welcome back. Nice to see your two fingers on the keys again. Not that we had any problems with the ones that were sitting in for you, but I’m also sure they’re happy not to be tasked with all they had to do and keep up with.
Mr B.
Mr. B.,
Amazing feat, that, with the lego gun. You are quite a talented man. Nope, it’s no use, don’t deny it– YOU are the guy in that video! Who else could possibly put that much time and effort into building a gun that shoots 5 feet?!! Aarrrrgh– I hate Lego! Such beautiful and intricate kits these days, but it’s always the same: the minute you’re done building, they fall apart. Very much a “see me but don’t touch me” toy. Frustrating for kids. Or big kids like me!
-AlanL
Little kids like to eat them, but they don’t have much nutritional value.
twotalon
Sounds like this pistol makes for a paradigm shift. Does it stretch the 30 yard barrier at which other pistols lose their effectiveness?
Robert, thanks for the super informative response about the Springfield rifle yesterday. It all matches up with what I’ve read and makes perfect sense. I suspect that those who rave about the Mauser’s superior design are doing so from the viewpoint of load testers who want to hotrod the rifle. Standard 30-06 loads are plenty for me. And the Springfield seemed reliable enough in combat whatever they say about the two piece firing pin.
Matt61
Matt 61:
You are welcome, and good luck with your Ruger.
Check this out. Lol? I kinda want one.
I don’t really have fly issues, but if I did… 😛
-Ryan
Ryan,
I wonder if that fly killer can be modified for use with a PCP? Now we’re talkin’ horse flies at range!
KA
I think you’re on to something. Imagine a longer rod connected to a wadcutter pellet with the end having the swatter part on it. Then you can shoot that from a PCP and destroy at 10 yards easy. Imagine the devastation! 😛
-Ryan
Ryan,
Harbor Freight has an electronic bug zaper which looks like a tennis racket and when it’s on sale for about $3.00. Works like a champ. Hit a bug with it and you get a loud snap of electricity and no more bug, gone, vanished, vaporized.
Mr B.
Mr B.
That thing sounds very enticing to me.
I am a little embarrassed to say that one of my greatest joys is splitting cockroaches in half with either my IZH 61 or Crosman 1377. I am convinced that the sole reason God created such disgusting creatures is for night time target practice. It is one of the few instances that the illuminated reticle comes into play.
Interestingly, when I was a youth, I used to use tennis rackets on fireflys. 30 love or whatever the hell they call it. Edith, help me out here.
Slinging Lead,
I have the tennis racket from Harbor Freight. It works like a champ. I gave one to my brother. When he can’t find any flies in his house, he goes after them in his backyard. Yeah, it’s that much fun 🙂
Edith
SL,
I can understand the cockroaches (and palmetto bugs). Why the tennis playing with the lightening bugs (fireflies)? 🙁
I checked out the Harbor Freight racket, sounds good. Being down here in SWGA you need all the help you can get. Ever hear that we have “Gnat Festivals” down here! I think I will get one of those rackets. Also found a “Martin Paul Flyshooter” that sounds good for about $5. Maybe a little more challenging than a tennis racket! 🙂
rikib
Slinging Lead, I didn’t know that you are an IZH 61 fan too. So where exactly are you shooting the roaches? Surely, you are not shooting up your own house. Outside at nighttime, I don’t see how even the illuminated reticle would be enough to get them. Incidentally, you want to be careful of the battery for the reticle. Looking over the directions for my new Centerpoint scope, it says that if you leave the battery in for a prolonged time it can cause damage–to what it doesn’t say. I immediately took out the battery from my Bug Buster scope that had died some months ago.
Matt61
Howdy Matt61
Good to hear from you. I am only recently an IZH 61 fan. I bought one last autumn, and it shot so inconsistently that I must have put at least 3000 pellets through it in the first month, just to figure out what was wrong. JSBs/Air Arms pellets would jam in the magazine, to the point where I thought I would have to return the gun the first time it happened, because I could not clear the jam. After that, I used the cheapie Crosman pointed pellets, because they indexed better, and it didn’t seem like such a waste. Accuracy was on and off. I got disgusted and put it in the back of the closet for several months.
Then I read one of your posts where you gushed about how great your IZH61 was, and the accuracy, and 30,000 pellets, etc etc. Made me hate you. Then you revealed that your 61 also had a plastic breech like mine, and that it had been tuned by none other than Mike Melick. This created an epiphany… which soon faded into nothing. I could not afford to double the cost of this thing, by shipping it both ways and paying for a tune. It stayed in the closet.
One day I got I bug up my butt so to speak, and was tired of being mocked by this Russian rifle which I wanted to like, despite how ugly it is. I pulled it apart to a certain extent, cleaned the barrel with JBs NEBCC, and decided to break out the Dremel. I grinded and then polished the breech end of the barrel. I wanted to create a smooth path, that would not distort the pellet by indexing. I loaded it up with the pellet it liked best, and…! the pellet would not even clear the barrel. Cool. I just took my project rifle and made it into a basket case. Buyers remorse, mixed with the anxiety of a failed tune. Back into the closet.
Did I mention my Air Arms TX200 doesn’t really care for Air Arms pellets? Much later I decided to quit saving these for a rifle that didn’t like them anyway, and gave them a second shot in the IZH 61. Hey! They actually cleared the barrel!
I took the rifle and the pellets and threw them into a locker at work. At my work, during the summer months, the palmetto bugs come out and night, and take control! They are so large, and aggressive, they will actually CHASE YOU. I am not kidding.
With the Air Arms (JSB) pellets in the 61, I can’t miss a bottle cap (or roach) at the typical range. It has found it’s niche. Sadly, I cannot brag about one-shot kills as I frequently blow off their heads, but they can live for over a week WITHOUT THEIR HEADS. What a freakish disgusting creature. Did I mention they can feed on your fingerprint, or decades-old wallpaper paste?
Don’t tell Greenpeace, but the cockroach will soon be on the endangered species list! I just need enough pellets. If anyone would like to donate to my crusade, feel free to contact me.
Slinging Lead, wow that’s quite the odyssey. I’ve had one of my own. The IZH 61 is very accurate, however, there is a certain level beyond which it gets erratic, I think because of its light weight. It cannot keep up with my B30. But insofar as you maintain your technique, it will always hit as you have been doing. Maybe I got lucky with my pellet choice. The Crosman Premiers worked well but I have settled on RWS Hobbys which are just as good and cheaper. Maybe you can try them for fun.
Shooting the heads off roaches is much more exciting than shooting ink spots on paper.
Matt61
Matt61,
You may already have an answer to this by now since I’m almost two days behind on blog reading. Sorry if this is redundant. Re: Battery warning, you’ll see this warning for all batteries because they will leak/corrode if left in the device when they die. All batteries will die after a long time whether used or not. How long the process takes is anybody’s guess. If it happens to you, you have a good chance of fixing the problem by just cleaning the corrosion off but in some instances it could get so bad that they can’t be cleaned. Best advice is take the battery out of you’re going to not use the device for a long time.
-CJr
Also enticed. Need to buy after a long list of other stuff I want. 😛
-Ryan
Yep. I have one of those electric tennis rackets too. They work pretty good for pesky flies. The other thing that I have a lot of fun with is taking my Crosman 1377 pump pistol, put no ammo in it, pump it up about 5-10 times and then point the barrel and its airblast at black widow spiders. Even the biggest ones cant stand up to the blast, and usually end up deflated. You just have to get close enough to the spider to have the air blast be effective. Makes for a great sport each nite in the summer, and keeps their numbers in check.
Sounds like a device that kids would love to torment each other with.
I saw a guy at a cookout attack a swarm of bees with what looked like a badminton racquet. The destruction was incredible. Parts of bees went flying out the other face of the racquet. I kept waiting for the bees to unite and destroy him, but they never did and kept flying to their doom.
Matt61
Does anyone out there have a tin of Beeman FTS Double Gold? If someone does, and also have a camera. Could you take some high quality shots of the pellets for me so I can see some. The pictures on PA are ok, but I want a real life shot of them. Thanks to whoever can do this. I would hate to have to open the seal. :/
-Ryan
Ryan,
What’s wrong with the pellet images on Pyramyd Air? Our photographer takes the tin, opens it up and takes the pictures shown online. These are not fantasy images or beauty shots supplied by Beeman.
Edith
Edith,
Nothing is really wrong with the photos on PA. I guess I’m super picky and want more. Like a macro shot would be cool. Similar to the shots on this site done by a blogger I believe. I do love that PA has pictures for many products. I have gotten copper plated pellets that have copper missing on areas. I am curious if this is common. Seeing only the one tin of pictures from PA doesn’t tell me much. I know I’m not going to see a lot of pictures from different tins, but some other pictures would be cool. Like I said, I’m a bit obsessed with pellets. 😛
-Ryan
Ryan,
Think about it! If the pellets are supposed to be “copper plated”, what company in their right mind would show photos of pellets missing the coating?
rikib
Ryan,
Why not try this. Open your tin, arrange the pellets the way you like, take the photos you want, making sure that you only handle the pellets with medical grade gloves (easily available). After this you can use a food saver (vacuum system) to seal the pellets, name and date them. I don’t think pellets are really going to increase in value, but if you just like looking at them this vacuum method would allow you to see them whenever you want. Just a random thought, don’t ask me where it came from!
rikib
Ryan,
I’ll takes some pics for you, but I only have them in .177. The link you posted was for .22’s. Is that ok?
Also, the FTS DG are pretty good as far as coating goes, but certainly not flawless. Some of them have spots, others are not coated all the way into the skirt, etc. Are you looking for a true representation of what’s in the tin, or only pics of the pretty ones?
– Orin
Orin,
True representation please. If you got ones with spots and such, then that would be similar to what I got in my Kodiak DG tins. However, this is not what is on PA’s picture for FTS DG. I don’t blame them for putting the best of the best on the site, but its nice to know what you’re getting. And yeah .177 is OK. I just want some nice and varied pics. If you want to email me the pics, you can do that. rl1cool@yahoo.com
-Ryan
Ryan,
No problem. It might take me a couple of days, but I’ll get them to you.
– Orin
Orin,
Thanks!
-Ryan
Totally off topic. Damn does one of my dogs stink! We’ve been pushing triple digit temperatures here in SWGA. She’s a Siberian Husky, we have a paddling pool for our dogs (4 all together, cats won’t get near it). She is the only one always jumping in, at least twice a day. Problem is she shakes off and comes straight in the house for the A/C. I’m glad I tore up all the downstairs carpeting a couple years back and replaced it with ceramic tile. Guess they are all getting a bath tomorrow, not that it will last. Guess who gets a bath as well seeing as one of the dogs is a great dane. 🙂
rikib
I can’t remember. Does the weekend blog start Friday 00:01am or Saturday 00:01am.
rikib
I have spent the past 2 days reading tons of these blog posts about airguns, and I’d like to thank you all (especially B.B.) for this invaluable resource. I have learned so much in such a short time simply because of the wealth of information concentrated in this single source.
I have a question, and I’m not really sure where to ask, but it seems like the trend is to ask questions in the comments section of the most recent blog, even of they do not pertain to the particular topic (I hope I’m not committing a faux pas).
So here goes…
I just received a Discovery a couple of days ago, and I LOVE it! But I’m now considering a .22 PCP. I am seriously considering buying a Marauder, but the one thing that is deterring me is the 11mm dovetail mount. I like everything about the Marauder except the lack of a Weaver style scope mount. So, the question I have is, are there any comparable rifles out there that have all the features (and power) of the Marauder that also have a Weaver mount? I like the ability to adjust the valve to a specific input pressure. (I have a lot of experience building and repairing high-end paintball markers, so I have good understanding of the theory behind poppet valves and pressure regulators.) The ability to adjust the valve is a big plus. But I really dislike the dovetail mounts. It seems as though the selection of affordable Weaver mounts far surpasses that of the dovetail mounts. I’m also an avid firearm enthusiast, and I have all of the equipment to align and lap 1″ scope rings. So I’m a bit of a stickler where it comes to scope mounts. If I had a proper mill, I’d just buy the Discovery and tap the breech block for a Weaver rail, but I don’t have confidence in my drill press and the cheap X/Y vise I bought for jeweling flat surfaces.
Anyway, thanks again for the great resource here and all the information you share.
You have the RIGHT place! Unfortunately I’m the wrong person. I’m sure you will get a lot of responses. Just wanted to welcome you!
rikib
RoninUT,
Hello and welcome to the blog! I’m sure you’ll get a proper fanfare in the morning when it comes back to life again. 🙂
I’m not a PCP guy, so I can’t help you in the gun recommendation department, but if you really like the Marauder, have you thought about using an 11mm to Weaver adapter? Here are a couple of examples…
/product/bkl-2-pc-3-8-or-11mm-dovetail-to-weaver-adapter-1-long-matte-black?a=2922
/product/bkl-3-8-or-11mm-dovetail-to-weaver-adapter-4-long-for-bolt-action-guns?a=2921
A PCP is not going to have any recoil, so a dovetail base should not be a limiting factor, aside from it adding to the difficulty of mounting and swapping scopes. Using a Weaver adapter and low rings should give you the same results as a Weaver rail and medium/high rings (which I suspect you need on the Marauder anyway to clear the magazine).
– Orin
Ronin –Welcome to the blog from Croatia!I myself am spring- gun- type of man.Stick around 😉 !!!
Thanks for the warm welcome!
I have been looking at the weaver adapter on Pyramid’s site. I’m guessing I’d have to get 2 piece adapters to clear the magazine on a Marauder.
Welcome, yes I was going suggest the adapter. Not sure about the sizing. Maybe someone else can chime in.
Matt61
RoninUT…instead of buying a weaver adapter, why not just buy a package of Leapers Accushot high rings(dovetail mount). The package comes with 2 rings and fits the Marauder scope rail like a glove (part# RGPM-25H4). I know because I have 2 Marauders, one in .22 and the other in .25. Both Mrods are equipped with a Leapers 6-24x50AO scope and Leapers Accushot high rings. Theres no recoil on the Marauder, so no need for Weaver rings…and the Accushot rings are cheap, only 10 bucks at Pyramyd, but they are high quality rings. I use them on my springers too. When I say this, I mean it in the nicest way of course…dont let a set of rings hold you back from a Marauder purchase!!! They are loads and loads of fun.
good night, good morning! Going to finish watching “Three Kings” about 4th or 5th time! Then sleep.
rikib
Ryan,
I’m surprised you didn’t catch the real revelation pertaining to this part of the blog article about accuracy. I mean, did you really look at Mac’s target results? BB is totally wrong about the best pellet. I was so taken aback with the beauty once I opened my eyes. Are we just so enamored by the aesthetic beauty of the pellet itself that we are forgetting the whole purpose of the design? I think so.
I want you to go back and take another look at those targets and look for the pellet that is really the best in the bunch. I think you might be surprised once you open your eyes and your mind. You may even embark on collecting and appreciating the artistic power of the pellet.
Let me know if you see it and what you think. This will be the test of the true aficionado.
-CJr
Chuck,
Always good to hear from you. Honestly though, I’m not sure if I see what you are talking about. As far as pellets go, I consider the pellets from RWS, H&N and JSB to be my favorites. This is not to say that a certain gun may perform badly with some of these. Every gun is different, but that doesn’t stop me from collecting different pellets, with no intention of shooting them all. I love the aesthetics as well as the functional aspects of pellets. I have problems with some Gamo pellets, as their quality and accuracy seem lacking to me. The raptors are pretty, but I don’t like overmold issues. Also, seeing as H&N, JSB, and RWS pellets are accurate and aesthetically pleasing, I prefer to collect them. I do like some Gamo guns, but their pellets leave me desiring more. As far as grouping in this report goes, it is obvious the RWS superdomes did best, followed by the Crosman Premiers, and last is the RWS hobbies. I like Crosman ammo for accuracy and cost, but I don’t love them for packaging and aesthetics. I am just a purist. I love German and Czech build quality, what can I say.
-Ryan
Ryan,
Go back and take another look at the targets. Look at the Superdomes then the Premiers, lastly look at the Hobbys. Now, have you ever seen such beautiful, crisp, clear, round holes? These are clearly the superior pellet. Being the wadcutters they are they make very precise holes. The other two are just tears in a piece of paper. They could have been made by anything, but there’s no mistaking the precision circles of the Hobby wadcutters. That my friend is art.
-CJr
Chuck,
You are completely right! I can’t believe I missed that. It is ironic that the most beautiful holes, were placed the furthest apart. I wish the accuracy of the hobbies was near its beauty. Thanks for pointing that out to me Chuck.
-Ryan
RoninUT,
Welcome. To give you the simple answer to your question, no. I cann’t think of any PCP with all the Marauder’s features with weaver bases. Espically when you consider the Marauder’s price point.
Orin’s advice about using the adapter is good and obviously will work.
Some questions for you sir–what do you want to use the Marauder for? What is your budget? How important is quiet when you’re shooting? Does the gun have to be a repeater? How much do you like to tinker with/modify your guns?
Give the folks some more info about you’re wants and needs and you’ll get tons of advice.
Mr B.
PS You were right about posting off topic questions on the current blog. They are always welcome. Also, the weekends are kinda like an open key board event.
Thanks Mr B.
To answer your questions, I want the Marauder for a general purpose varmint / plinking rifle. I have a few .22 rimfire rifles, but I want something air powered simply because I am enamored of the idea that you can launch a projectile accurately using only air. I would like to stay under the $500 mark so that I will have more to spend on accessories like extra magazines, scope mounts, pellets, etc.
I do want a quiet airgun. I love my Discovery, and if it wasn’t for the loud report, I’d probably be happy to just stick with it. But I realized that a .22 is going to be a more ethical choice for dispatching critters, and the Marauder’s shrouded barrel will keep it relatively quiet.
As for tinkering, I love to modify things to improve their performance and aesthetics. I’m hoping to have a backyard workshop completed by this fall, and eventually get a small tabletop milling machine and lathe to experiment with. Right now I’ve got a drill press and a Harbor Freight X/Y milling vise, but it’s really only suitable for jeweling flat surfaces. I jeweled a Marlin Model 60 bolt and it came out pretty nice.
The gun does not have to be a repeater. If I do get a marauder, I plan on buying the single shot breech insert so I have the option to use it that way. Though it would be nice to be able to load up a few magazines and then wash the lead residue off my hands before heading out the door. My fingers get covered in pellet lube and lead dust when loading the Discovery. Not the best thing if you want to go for a picnic in the woods and eat after shooting your rifle.
I have been looking around online to see if there are any aftermarket shrouds available for the Discovery. I found a site where a guy made his own, but it is more of a sleeve than a proper shroud. I found another site that makes a breech block riser that gets the barrel up higher above the air chamber tube so that you could put a shroud on if you were so inclined, and had rotary magazines for use on the discovery. Yet another site had adjustable sears that allow you to tune the trigger pull a bit.
But by the time I spent the money to upgrade the Discovery, I could probably just get a Marauder and have a better rifle overall, with a warranty.
I forgot to add that I have considered the Trail NP as well, simply because I wouldn’t have to lug a pump or scuba tank around.
I moved to Utah a few years ago and left my 2 scuba tanks when I moved (I used to have a 2 tank “cascade” because I did a lot of work on paintball markers and needed a source for testing them once they were reassembled.)
I suppose If the PCP airgun bug really bites me, I’ll eventually want a compressor.
I decided to try a PCP because of bad experiences with Gamo spring piston rifles. I didn’t have enough scope adjustment travel to sight one in, and actually took the barrel off and used a file to re-profile the breech face so the barrel would be parallel to the air chamber instead of the droop it had. This worked, but I am not really confident in that rifle. Another feature that drew me to PCP rifles is the ability to use scopes that aren’t purpose made for the double recoil of the springers.
RoninUT, I could swear that someone on the blog mentioned a very good shroud for the Discovery, but I don’t recall the details. There are plenty of Discovery users, so maybe someone will pipe up.
I think you had a bad experience with springers and should not give up on them. An RWS 48 would be within your price range and do just about everything you wanted to do. And if you get the right scope, the recoil will not be a problem. I believe that the Leapers True Strength models will handle any recoil. I have a cheapo Leapers 4X32 (not True Strength) on my B30 which shoots at 900 fps and have had no problem after thousands of shots.
Matt61
A friend of mine had an RWS (can’t remember which model but it wasn’t the 48) years ago. I was really impressed with the stock and overall finish on the rifle. But I have done a bit of reading about the springers and it seems that they require a different sort of hold to shoot them accurately. I saw a youtube video a couple of months ago about “the artillery hold” where the shooter allows the gun to recoil in a straight line by giving it some room to travel straight back. Because the piston is a relatively large mass in motion before the pellet exits the barrel, it’s effectively a long “lock time”, combined with recoil having the potential to affect your shot.
The PCP valve strikers, and multi pump pneumatic strikers probably have a lot more mass than a firing pin in a traditional firearm, and also would likely have a longer lock time, but (in my very limited experience) they tend to be more forgiving as far as the shooter’s hold is concerned.
Still, I have been giving a little consideration to a higher quality springer for the simple fact that the air supply is provided by the rifle, rather than an external source.
RoninUT
I would also like to welcome you to the blog. You have come to the right place. Lots of very cool, knowledgeable people lurking around.
The Marauder is an excellent rifle. I have one in .22 and a Discovery in .177. Both rifles are great for tinkering, because they are so simple to work on. They are also very accurate, bested only by my TX200.
The Discovery trigger is easy to modify and smooth out with the addition of a few set screws and a little polishing. I will dig up the appropriate links if you are interested in this information. Also I bought a muzzle-break for my Discovery which reduced the report to a relative whisper. I can give you details on that as well.
The Marauder is a tad heavy. And in my eyes/hands the stock is just awful. The finish on the stock looks like a woodgrain sticker pulled off the side of a 1984 Buick Station Wagon. The overly simple laser checkering makes pressed checkering look like fine craftsmanship. The grip is way too far away from the trigger, unless you have hands like Michael Jordan. Mine had scuffs on the stock out of the box and two areas of wood filler. Grade 4 Turkish walnut it aint. Crosman put their money into the action. I will eventually get off my lazy butt and either refinish the Marauder stock, or work some overtime so I can afford a custom stock from someone who knows what they are doing.
Long story short, the Marauder is a definite winner, with a sucky stock. The Discovery stock is no work of art either, but it is light, svelte and looks like it is actually made out of wood.
I like my PCPs, but I have been in the position that I could use them, because my pump quit working. This will eventually happen to you. You’ll have a bitchen PCP and won’t be able to use it for lack of a way of getting air inside it.
For this, I am a springer guy ultimately. I have a TX200 and an RWS 52 and used to have an Air Venturi Bronco. Do not allow the crudeness/cheapness/harshness of Gamo rifles to sour you on springers. Springers do have a more kick to them than a PCP. But some of them are so smooooooth, you will relish the kick. Look into a Beeman R9 in .22 perhaps, or an HW50S. I really like the idea of being able to head into the woods and shoot as much as I want until I run out of pellets, without having to worry about pumps, scuba tanks, fill adapters, etc.
You are very shrewd to pick up on the importance of the artillery hold for spring guns. While it is vital, it is not difficult to learn, and can actually be kind of fun, learning what hold really makes you rifle shoot to its potential. Plus, you must admit that artillery hold video guy is one handsome devil. I have watched it at least two dozen times.
Slinging Lead,
Thanks for the reply.
I’m a little disheartened to hear about the poor quality stock on the Marauder. But that wouldn’t be a real deterrent to purchasing one (for me anyway). I would be interested in a link to the aftermarket muzzle brake you mentioned for the Discovery. I think I might have seen the page you mentioned about improving it’s trigger with some set screws. I saw one site that had a replacement sear with a couple of screws in the sear itself, and another site that detailed how to drill and tap the trigger group housing for setscrews to achieve the same results using the stock sear. Basically, it would allow you to set sear engagement and adjust trigger travel. If tomorrow rains like it did today, I might have to dig up some screws and get my tap and die set out. 😉
I also remember seeing a modification that allows the shooter to adjust the valve spring tension (at the cost of no longer being able to use the de-gasser tool).
As for the muzzle brake, does it replace the entire front sight? What is involved in installing it?
RoninUT
The poor quality of the stock on the Marauder should not be a deterrent. The action is worth the price, and you can always hack away at the stock in an effort to make it better. Not much you can do about the grip being too far away from the trigger however. At any rate, it is worth buying despite my belly aching.
The muzzle brake for the Discovery can be found here:
http://www.tko22.com/
$44 shipped. WELL worth the price. You will have to remove your entire front site, which is very easy to do. If you aren’t going to use a scope, you can glue the fiber optic portion of the sight to the muzzle brake, and is contoured perfectly to do so. It will be at nearly the same elevation. You will have to make a slight modification to your filler probe cap, to accommodate the brake but I have confidence that you can handle this simple task as well. The brake makes a loud rifle quiet.
Discovery trigger mods. I have two sites to look at. If you install all three screws, and polish the trigger contact surfaces, you will end up with a trigger that will make you wonder how you ever bothered to shoot it before. MUCH BETTER! I am a ham fisted idiot, and was able to do these procedures without incident.
http://www.airgunfix.com/blog/airgun-mods-diy-tuning/benjamin-discovery-3-screw-trigger-mod/
also:
http://www.spiralsol.com/airgunmod/1005.pdf
This second site explains which parts to polish and where.
Do plenty of tinkering with the settings of the set screws once you’re finished installing them to get what you are after. That is the key.
RoninUT, the artillery hold is challenging enough to be interesting but not enough to form a deterrent. One way to think about it is not as a technique to do but as something not to do. You just let the rifle rest lightly whatever your position might be without squeezing and release the trigger. As the rifle bucks and recoils (much less than a firearm), again, do nothing. Let it jump and settle back on its own, and your shot will be right on target. In some ways, this is the easiest of all shooting techniques since you do not try to control the rifle. It’s an interesting experience and will encourage very good follow through whatever kind of gun you shoot. Just watch the video and you will get the hang of it quickly.
Matt61
Edith,
Can you please elucidate for me why the posted specs for the RWS Diana 460 Magnum indicate velocities of 1200/1000 fps in .177/.22 while the description touts velocities of 1350/950 fps respectively? Not that these matter one iota since what PA should really be posting is muzzle energies instead of velocities. This would be more professional. The flyweight pellet shenanigans in the velocity wars fools nobody but the novice. I have little doubt that the correct velocity for this gun with an 18 grain pellet is more in the 750 fps range anyway.
-AlanL
Edith
It is Saturday, so you should be laying in a hammock and sipping lemonade garnished with a sprig of mint leaf. I hope that you are.
When Monday comes, I wonder if you could inquire to Mr. Eutsler about an edit function, in addition to or instead of the preview function.
It seems that no matter how many times I proofread my posts, I can’t find my mistakes until they are on display for God and everyone.
This is not a priority of any kind, just one of my stupid ideas inspired by reading my stupid grammatical errors.
How much is the Amazing Electrified Technicolor Tennis Racket? Do they work on co-workers? Only kidding. I just LOVE my esteemed colleagues. (Sigh)
Slinging Lead,
I’m not sipping lemonad or lying in a hammock, however, I had planned to spend today sleeping and relaxing…and most of Sunday will be spent the same way. Sleep deprivation is hardly adequate to describe my condition for the past 2 months 🙂
The edit/preview function is on the list of things that they’ll do for the blog comments, but it’s not a top priority. However, there’s something else that I’m hoping can be done til that takes place. Let me look into it.
The electric tennis racket wasn’t expensive. And, no, you can’t use it on people. Both Harbor Freight and Northern Tool sell it.
Edith
Edith
Thanks for the link. This one is on the must-buy list. I think with a few modifications and little tinkering, I can get it to work on coworkers after all. I just need to make sure the Department of Labor doesn’t find out.
This conversation never happened.
Slinging Lead:
In the British workplace ‘Fun’ takes priority.
I was full of dread leaving school and getting my first job.
To my amazement there was more horsing around at work than in school.
Full on paper pellet & elastic band battles raging around the Dental Lab.
I was also stuffed head first into a garbage bin a couple of times 🙂
One of our guy’s was a member of the British version of the ‘National Guard’.
He brought into work an army thunder flash which we let off in the staff toilet.
That was really loud.people up and down the road came out thinking a car had crashed.lol
I have done more laughing than working in the last 26 years.
No wonder the UK is boned 🙂
Dave.
I believe it is listed a $5 on Amazon, there is also a fly shooter for more fun at I think around $12.
rikib
Ryan,if you check thursday’s blog…..I posted on how the Walther Co2 loading mechanism is designed to work.It should be really helpful.Sorry,I forgot that I wasn’t on the current blog page.Welcome home BB,you sure had alot of us worried !!
Maybe I am reading it wrong, but if I don’t tighten the screw under the cartridge before I turn the knob under the grip, the cartridge won’t be pierced. If I am understanding you wrong, let me know. I tried many times, different techniques, and what I found was that I needed to tighten the screw under the cartridge when the knob is set to “Open”. If I don’t tighten it enough when the knob is set to “Open” the piercing will be only partial, and the gas will not discharge fast enough, such that eventually the slide won’t re-cock itself. I wish they had just made an easier design. I do however like the aesthetics of the piercing mechanism. It makes the gun very realistic looking. Functionally it is not so good though.
-Ryan
Sounds like a pain in the butt, glad my 2240 only requires dropping in a cartridge and screwing the cap back on.
rikib
rikib,the design is well thought out….over tightening destroys the seal.This mechanism can prevent that.Unfortunately they fail to give adequate directions,or they are hard to comprehend.
I’ll try to be clearer,sorry.My Walther Nighthawk likes the brass disc to be just short of snug…with the bottom mechanism rotated “open”.Then I can turn the bottom mechanism the 3/4 turn,which pierces and seals the powerlet in one easy motion!When the powerlet is empty,all I have to do is turn the base 3/4 turn and the powerlet can be removed base first,add a drop of pellgun oil,and install the new powerlet neck[or top]first.No need to adjust the brass wheel once the clearance is set.Just twist the base again and you are ready to go.If you can’t remove and replace the powerlet without turning the brass wheel,it is set too snug. OK if you try this and it doesn’t work,your seal was damaged when the first one was installed so tight….and I’m sorry to be the messanger if that is the case.Let me know if I can be of any further help–Frank B
Also,my Nighthawk is 3 1/2 yrs. old and still works that way.The new cartrige should be loaded top first and just graze the recession in the disc.Don’t pierce it,just load it and unload it while fine tuning the clearance!
Frank B,
I definitely understand the theory of how the piercing mechanism is supposed to work. Unfortunately, it doesn’t always work as intended. I have had problems with the know on the bottom becoming stuck, such that I can’t remove the cartridge. I have also had the opposite, where the cartridge is only partially pierced. I then have issues with the gun not being able to be fired quickly, as the gas is not leaving the cartridge fast enough to build up pressure in the gun. After a shot or so, it won’t recock the slide. I have learned that at least on my particular gun, I need to be very careful to tighten the screw till there is resistance. Then I turn the knob on the bottom to pierce the cartridge. The system is nice for making a good looking gun, but it does leave me desiring more. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. Wanted to make sure there wasn’t something I was doing wrong.
-Ryan
Yours clearly has a defect.I would exchange it.If it is part of the design and it doesn’t function as designed,that’s broken in my book!You deserve your money’s worth.
Would you suggest I call PA over this, or should I do what the paper says that came with the gun, and call the manufacturer? I really don’t like the way the gun works at the moment. Yours sounds awesome. I would be totally satisfied with the way yours works. Let me know what you think. 🙂
-Ryan
It is my understanding this gun has lived with you less than a week.If that is correct,try Pyramyd for a quicker result.This Nighthawk is way better than my 2 Gamo PT80’s.
Hello BB:
Great to see you writing again 🙂
Just a bit of background to the converted MK4 Enfield rifles.
The Law changed in the UK back in 2003 requiring all Air cartridge pistols/rifles to be registered and the keepers to get firearms licenses.
I think most converted Enfield owners were probably just air gunners like myself.
People who didn’t want the hassle of licences,secured gun cabinets and police inspections.
Now these fella’s have a problem.
A very expensive rifle that they can’t shoot,sell or swap without showing themselves out.
Even if they apply retrospectively for the paper work they could be asked,
“where has this rifle been for the last 7 years?”
Any answer they give will put the owner in the wrong legally speaking.
That is why I reckon the converted MK4s are as rare as Hens teeth.
They have all gone underground.
Edith:
I wouldn’t like to think what insect my wife would pick to describe me 🙁
All:
Be very proud,the USA soccer team played a fantastic game and drew 1-1 with England this evening.
Most of your team play in our top flight soccer leagues in the UK you know.
I am confident the USA will get through to the next round no problem.
DaveUK
When I say they play in our leagues,I am meaning that America produces good players that top clubs in the UK are very pleased to take on.
Not that USA players would be no good without playing in English leagues.
You know what I mean 🙂
DaveUK
DaveUK
Go ahead and say it. Yanks suck at soccer. 🙁
We all know it here. Why else spend a mint on what amounts to a cover model, and his washed-up trampy wife? You would think with her cushy lifestyle, she would smile every so often.
Our marathons are dominated by Kenyans.
Our best hockey teams are made up of Canadians and Russians.
Baseball players? Dominicans seem prevalent.
Our “Olympic” Basketball team, who is collectively paid more than all the sultans in the Arab world are routinely humiliated by teams from countries with no professional program, but somehow seem to grasp the concept of teamwork. It makes me smile every time.
Money can’t buy everything. But it can buy happiness, if you know where to shop.
USA doesn’t suck at soccer, they suck at supporting it. It’s the same with Hockey, I grew up in northern New England and there where some outstanding players. Problem is team owners and scouts that don’t want to consider USA players as being talented.
rikib
rikiB
I should qualify my statement by saying that talented athletes in America will gravitate toward the sports that offer the greatest financial reward. Hence no dedicicated soccer players. A talented soccer player will modify his skills to compete in Football or something else. Much as I hate what might be considered a sell-out mentality, I can’t spite someone for not wanting to end up eating dog food in their old age. Given the state of “Social Security” it seems that is just what the government has in mind for my generation.
Alpo isn’t that bad, actually.
SL,
You are correct in that many modify their skills for a sport that will pay them more. Unfortunately that has become something called the American Way. I just don’t understand why that we as a nation cannot get behind sports like soccer or rugby. Is it because we are afraid we will not be the best? Even racing, we televise NASCAR but seldom indy, rally or superbike. Well unless you want to pay for special channels. We always want to be the best and sadly to say we are willing to pay our performers for that no matter were they come from. You can work your butt off and earn less than 50k a year (think of our dying soldiers) while these performers (some cannot be called athletes) carry that around in their pocket everyday. We have made them think they are better than they are, so I guess we can only blame ourselves.
rikib
rikib,
Madison Avenue has not gotten around to creating a market for fusbol in the US, yet. When their polls start showing there is money to be made in the sport they will create the market. Once we have responded to the market they are creating the sport will take off and squeeze some other market out of the TV time slots. TV time slots can’t exist without viewers and the sport with the most viewers gets the slot. It won’t even help to create a fusbol network if no one watches it and Madison Ave has not yet told us that it is cool to like fusbol. That is the American Way.
-CJr
I don’t know if your trying to agree or disagree. I’m a foosball lover! I really like billards as well and they do televise that occasionally. Basically everything in sports and entertainment is done for the Almighty Dollar in my opinion. Athletes and other entertainers receive multi-million dollar contacts to perform or not if they get injured. What about the military person who becomes disabled for life serving our country, some at almost minimum wage. They give an arm, leg, maybe more, but they don’t have a multi-million dollar contract. Believe me I know I’m a 100% disabled veteran and proud of serving, but I didn’t have a multi-million dollar deal to rest on.
rikib
rikib,
I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, just stating my beliefs. I was only addressing the lack of popularity of futbol/fusbol/football/soccer in the U.S. I now believe you real question was about compenstion for military troops in combat.
When I served in VietNam I was paid an extra $50/month as combat pay. I get the feeling that you think it should be more 🙂 Seriously, I agree with you. Someone who puts their life on the line especially against their will, as many were in the 60’s & 70’s, should be compensated generously.
But, hell, we were hardly even thanked back then. We were practically accused of being unpatriotic warmongers as we were forced to fight an unpopular war. I’m surprised the government didn’t make us pay them the $50 to serve in a combat area.
Anyway, you are right, I think each combat veteran who served under fire should be awarded a million dollars. And I think each draft dodger, regardless of age, should be rounded up and made to serve a year in Afganistan instead of given a cushy civilian/political job/position.
OK, now what do I do with this soapbox now that I’m done with it? I’d be glad to Fedex it to someone else.
-CJr
Chuck,
I couldn’t have said it better! I remember being booed in airports when I wore my uniform in the early 1970s. Now we stand and applaud the troops, which is the right reaction, in my opinion.
B.B.
CJr
I know what you are saying about the Vietnam Veterans. My dad served 23 years in the Army and did two tours. I remember meeting him at the airport when he would return and not understanding how angry some people would be. It effected the children of soldiers as well, I don’t think anyone thought of that. Anyway, my little brother and I both went on to retire from the military making dad proud (older brother died before serving). We are a proud military family and were blessed with no loss of life during our years of service.
rikib
Slinging Lead, everyone’s marathons are dominated by the Africans. 🙂
Matt61
Matt61,
Humor ( 🙂 ) or not that statement was really uncalled for!
rikib
Slinging Lead,
Thanks again for all the great info.
After looking at the TKO muzzle brakes, I’m a little paranoid about a possible adverse ATF classification on those.
The trigger mod looks easy enough, and I have a nice set of Brownell’s stones for 1911 trigger jobs that could probably really slick up the trigger surfaces. I’ll have to do some rooting around, but I probably have some screws that would work fine too in my old paintball toolbox.
I noticed that the Discovery’s cross bolt safety is wider than the stock, so it will need to be removed first. I noticed a small bit of silver spring wire inside the trigger guard. Am I correct in assuming that lifting this wire with a pick or something will allow me to remove the safety to facilitate removing the stock?
RoninUT
Yes. You are a genius. I had to look it up, you figured it out on your own. Pry up the spring, and the safety slides right out.
As far as muzzle brakes, best to play it safe. I live in a somewhat permissive state, as far as the shooting sports are concerned. You don’t want to end up on the wrong side of the law. Some states actually restrict the Marauder due to the shroud. You may want to check your local regulations on this matter if you live in Michigan or New Jersey or such.
As far as ATF is concerned, I always thought it would make a bitchen store. Alcohol, Tobacco AND Firearms? One stop shopping.
Slinging Lead,
I live in Utah, and we have an “F” rating from the Brady Campaign. 😀
Nevertheless, I’d rather just get the Marauder with it’s factory shroud than buy an aftermarket device for the Discovery (though they do look really nice on the TKO website). It would be a lot harder to explain the obvious add-on than the factory parts should an explanation ever be required. I’d prefer to have “but I bought it from a long established, decades old, reputable American manufacturer” as a defense, rather than be painted as someone who only had an air rifle as an excuse for possessing a device that could possibly be installed on a cartridge firearm in my possession.
However, Utah just passed legislation a few weeks (months?) ago that several other states have passed or are considering called “firearms freedom act legislation”.
The Federal government’s power to regulate firearms (and suppressors) is derived from the interstate commerce clause. The states that passed the law specifically exempt weapons made entirely within the respective state from federal regulation, stating that since the materials used to make the guns have not traveled in interstate commerce, so the feds have no jurisdiction over them, proving those products are stamped “made in Utah”. Utah’s version specifically exempts “silencers” as well! 😀
However, there was a Supreme court decision many years ago, “Wickard vs. Filburn”, where the government decided that even if a product does not travel from one state to another, it still has an affect on interstate commerce because a person consuming a product entirely within the state where it was produced would otherwise have had to purchase the same product from elsewhere, thereby impacting interstate sales. Unfortunately, all these firearms freedom acts being passed by the states would be ruled unconstitutional unless the Supreme Court overturned decades of precedent by reversing Wickard vs. Filburn. If they did that, it would literally cripple the federal government’s power with the stroke of a pen. Suddenly, the federal government would be would be slammed with thousands of lawsuits citing the overturned Wickard precedent and they would lose the power to regulate almost everything. (Which could be either very bad, very good, or both, depending on a person’s ideology).
So, despite the fact that in Utah, a home made silencer with “made in Utah” stamped on it, and made from materials that were manufactured in Utah is completely legal, the ATF still has jurisdiction, and I sure don’t want to be the test case. The law would keep local and state police off your back, but it you were unlucky enough to be noticed by the feds, you’d be in for 10 years.
Speaking of muzzle accessories, I once saw a kid with one of those “Walther NightHawk” CO2 pistols. It comes with a red dot sight, a crane mount, a flashlight, and a “compensator”. The compensator is a plastic screw-on attachment that has what looked like a single “K” type plastic suppressor baffle inside, clearly visible through the big holes cut in the side of the device to allow air (and presumably sound) to escape. This kid had covered the holes with tape, and the little CO2 pistol was almost completely silent when fired. You could quite literally hear the action cycle and the pellet impacts on the log he was shooting at. Those sounds were far louder than the gasses escaping from the compensator. I’m not sure if they are still making them and selling them. But I would never suggest covering the holes to anyone, because if the device could be somehow attached to a real firearm and then reduce the report by one decibel (even if the comp is destroyed), they would be guilty of “making” a silencer, per the federal regulations.
Anyway, the point of all that is that I’d consider ordering one of the TKO breaks if it had a bunch of big (but neat and evenly spaced) holes drilled through the sides BEFORE it was shipped to me, so that it could not reduce the report of the gun AT ALL. 😉 While that might seemingly defeat the purpose, the device would still retain a lot of utility as an aesthetic improvement, and possibly redirect some of the escaping gas to help stabilize the pellet.
Slinging Lead,
From what I understand on the news the other day there has been some lifting of gun restrictions here in Georgia (as to where you can carry) . You normally keep up on this stuff. What have you heard? Or is this just down here in SWGA?
rikib
p.s. Love the comment about an ATF Store 🙂
rikib
Yes, recently there have been a relaxing of some regulations. They even legalized carrying at the airport! That one is being challenged however, and I would not recommend trying it unless you have lots of time and money to spare.
The best source of information about your rights in Georgia is:
http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/georgias-carry-laws-explained/frequently-asked-questions/
This organization fights every day for your rights as a gun owner. They are definitely worthy of charitable donations, unlike the International Red Cross. I would rather donate money to the the Taliban than to IRC, because they are less anti-American.
If I could ever curry favor with enough politicians to get my ATF store approved, I would open it in a heartbeat. I figure I could retire very comfortably in about 5 years. I need to get better at sucking up, maybe I could get the permits.
I believe they said on the news that you would be able to carry a gun into bars so your permits are almost there. Serving alcohol, I believe most bars sell cigarettes, now you only need a permit to sell the firearms that are already allowed in your place of business. 🙂
rikib
Well the blog seems to have gone to sleep for the night, guess I will too. Nite Nite Sleep Tight!
rikib
In case anyone is wondering what’s going on with GTA, I got an e-mail from a friend that contacted Bob (Charlie DaTuna). He said their server is having technical difficulties and the server reps are trying to locate/correct the problem. They’re hoping to be back online soon.
I thought it was just my computer, so if anyone else suspected the same, now you know otherwise.
– Orin
Hi B.B.,
I’m in the middle of moving right now, so I haven’t posted much & am not sure how long it will take to get internet service at my new place, so I may be down for a little while, but I just wanted to take a moment to say just how happy I am to hear that you are back now & doing much better.
I am so happy for you. Congratulations!
Take it slow & get well soon. 😉
All my best,
Mike E. aka – The Big Bore Addict –
BBA,
Thanks for the kind words. I never imagined that a hospital stay would leave me in worse shape than before I went ( except for the illness) but that’s what it does. You sink ever lower into that hospital bed until it’s a wonder you can move at all. I had to fight it by walking the halls three times a day, but I felt like death warmed over every time.
And what they put into you! At one time I weighed 312 lbs. from the steroids and water they pumped into me. But after four weeks of not eating, I got down to 210 at discharge. I haven’t eaten for five weeks now, so it’s probably less. When I went into the hospital my real weight was about 270, so I’m a shadow of my former self.
After a week at home I feel 100 percent stronger than when I first was discharged. Doing for yourself and sitting up on the couch are light-years better than a hospital bed.
I’m now able to sit at my desk and write my blogs. I can also address a few comments. This will improve.
I still drag around a drip stand that’s attached 24/7, plus a pancreas drain bag, so I won’t be running any wind sprints for awhile, but given my logistical tail I get around pretty well.
B.B.
B.B.,
We haven’t talked yet, but I am a newer blog reader, and airgun enthusiast. I have read =very many of your blogs, and I love them. Thank you for all your contributions to airgunning.
I can’t say I know exactly what you went through being in the hospital that long. I can extrapolate the horror, based on my brief visits there. Being hooked to an IV is not fun. Also, feeling like you are an object, not a human being, is not fun either. You might have had a different experience, but I sure didn’t feel that cared for when I was in the hospital. I felt like I was looked at more as a thing to make money from.
Anyway, I am glad to see you typing away. I hear it is with 1/5 of your fingers. Hope that progresses to a higher fraction, sometime. Get better Tom.
-Ryan
Does any of you guys tried to buy 52 dollar chinesse airgun and tuned it up 🙂 ????Is it mission impossible?
Good Morning C-S:
Put a reed in the breech and drill a few holes up the barrel,I am sure you will get a tune out of it 🙂
DaveUK
Good day Dave !!!Come on i ll buy it ,they got steel barrel piston,piston seal and they are guns basically for price of 3 tins of pellets AND i can mess the gun up 😉 And -yes everything you said i agrre for soccer ,you know more game less advertising 😉
C-S:
In terms of the Chinese,Sliding breech,side lever springer like mine,I can only refer you back to the most excellent Site you gave me 🙂
Where’Derrick38’did a full strip down,rebuild and tune of the BAM B-3.
The Chinese use the same platform for a lot of their rifles and just change the stocks.
I agree,those cheap Chinese rifles are a great test bed to explore for us budding gunsmiths.
DaveUK
If only i could find BAM here i would buy it ,but only thing now that comes to my mind is SHANGAJ 🙂
C-S,
Tuning “cheap” Chinese airguns is very popular. Ray Apelles and his father, Hans, the A team who now are very well-known in airgun circles, started out tuning Chinese TS 45 rifles.
Read about it in this old two-part report:
/blog/2007/1/tuning-a-cheap-chinese-airgun-part-2/
B.B.
Thank you B.B.; BUT NOW I AM CONFUSED :)! Yust kidding probably i ll give it a try 😉
Hi RoninUT:
As far as I am aware,we in the UK have no restrictions on ‘Silencers’.
Most are factory fitted on airguns,although there is a good aftermarket choice as well.
From the cheap hollow variety up to expensive one’s with baffles.
The only single advantage British air gunners have over their American cousins is the availability of Suppressors I think.
Slinging Lead:
‘Washed up tramp’you mean Victoria Beckham (Posh Spice)our ‘Queen of Hearts’our ‘English Rose’ LOL 🙂
Ok,in his prime David Beckham was a pretty good player and not a bad captain of the England Squad.
Then he married Victoria 🙁
If she could bottle her husbands Farts and sell them as a room deodoriser she would 🙂
Actually our Soccer leagues are full of foreign players now.Mainly Eastern European.
Globalisation you see.
rikib:
You have a good point.
I cannot see why we pay people so much money for doing what most of us love to do as a hobby.
Sports,music,acting,writing you name it.
In days of old,not having to push a plough was reward enough for those in the entertainment world.
Not now though and worse,there has developed many hereditary dynasty’s of celebrities.
One reason I am happy to have a Monarch is because I don’t want’Queen’Victoria Beckham ruling the roost whilst selling her husbands underpants 🙂
DaveUK
1 – 1 tie. Hee hee HEE! And the UK was going to wipe the field with the US…
PZ:
Tis a mere flesh wound Pete 🙂
DaveUK
DaveUK,
Yes, you guys do have that advantage. When I first heard about how suppressors are viewed in Europe, I was jealous. Hopefully those attitudes can be brought here (that suppressors are a courtesy, and a hearing safety device).
Update on the Titan…….
Pellets fit tight. Thumbnail pressure is required to seat the pellets.
The breech end was not chamfered. As a result, CP were the only pellets that could be seated flush….the skirts on other pellets tried were too large to be seated. A few minutes with a pointed dremel stone gave enough chamfer to allow proper seating.
Pushing a dry CP through a clean bore produced a uniform and snug feel that felt just a bit dirty the whole length of the barrel. Nothing particularly rough, and with no tight or loose spots until about 1/2″ from the muzzle where it tightened up significantly.
The trigger is long and stiff with a dry and slightly dirty feel, but without any grabby spots.
The 4X scope supplied does not have a great deal of parallax, and has pretty good optics.
The gun is not very hold sensitive.
Now that I can seat more pellets, I will get to try others for acuracy when weather permits.
twotalon
Twotalon,
Firstly, congratulations on the Titan! Hope you like it. For $149.99 it should meet expectations.
Odd that your particular gun has a smaller diameter breech. I have the Trail NP, which uses much of the same parts. My trail likes 5.53mm Field Target Trophies. They fit snugly but not too snug. 5.51mm Baracuda Matches fit pretty loosely. I had problems getting Rabbit Magnum IIs to fit, and they are 5.50mm! Strange gun, but for the most part, it likes bigger diameter pellets. Guess every gun is different.
-Ryan
This is a 700 fps gun, so not much point in trying heavies in it.
I have cp, cphp, cp pointed, crosman wadcutters, 16 gr exacts, a few fts, preds, some old daisy wadcutters and pointeds, rws superdomes and super hp. The kodiaks and baracuda match are reserved for the Talon.
After this mornings plinking session, I can tell that a lot of the oil is getting burned out of it, and the trigger is getting a little smoother.
The first shot over the chrono a few days ago went 1024 fps. The Chinese must get their oil cheap. The gun was pretty well soaked in it.
twotalon
Twotalon,
There is nothing wrong with using heavies in the Trail, or the Titan. I only have one gun in .22 cal, and one in .177. So there is no reason for me to not shoot my heavies, except that one type doesn’t really fit my breach. If I had a super magnum gun, I would surely reserve my heavies for it. Until then, I will sometimes shoot them in my Trail. I only go for groups, so hitting the bulls eye doesn’t really matter. There will be obvious POI drop with the heavies, but that’s expected.
I agree about the gun being soaked in oil. The stock trigger was drenched in it. I had to wipe it down after every few shots. I changed the stock trigger out for a GRT-III. It then got oil leaked on it. There was also oil all over the receiver and barrel. I do love my trail though. That gun with the anodized aluminum trigger blade is a beautiful work of art. I think I might get a Titan for my beater gun that I won’t care as much about if I ding the stock, or dry fire it. Even though it would suck if one of those things happened.
-Ryan
I’m afraid the Chinese recycle their fryer oil by sending it to us in their springers.
Anyone for .22 wonton?
Well, I’m happy to announce that yesterday evening I put in an online order at Pyramyd for a Marauder, some scope bases to try on the Discovery, extra magazines, and a few other odds and ends.
I’m pretty excited to try my first .22 pellet gun!
RoninUT, good for you!!! You will absolutely love your Marauder…I just know it!!!
What scope are you going to put on it? Did you get some Crosman Premier domeheads and Kodiak/Baracuda pellets? Those are the two pellets that do best in my Mrod .22, and as far as I know, everyone else reports the same.
RoninUT,
Congratulations on the Marauder. You didn’t need my opinion after all (and I ****** *** SL for nothing :-))
Yes, and my Marauder .22 really likes the cardoard boxed Crosman Premiers 14.3gr, as well.
-CJr
Davee1,
I haven’t decided on a scope yet, I have a few loose scopes lying around the house, but it really depends on how much clearance my mounts will allow, and the objective lens diameter of the scopes I have. I might wind up running to walmart to get one of the centerpoints.
I like higher magnification scopes so that I can easily see pellet holes in the paper. I think 4-12X or 6-14X is just about right for my taste, but everyone is different. I have a 3-9 daisy airgun scope, and an older TechForce scope I might use. The TF has a pretty big objective so I’ll need to make sure the mount I use has enough clearance. The daisy scope is ok, but it doesn’t have a parallax adjustment, which I really like to have.
I have a 4-12X on my Discovery right now, but it is a cheap store brand scope that came with a .22 rifle I bought a couple of years ago, and at the higher magnifications, it is very unforgiving if you don’t have a perfect check weld to the stock. If you move your head the slightest bit in any direction, they image gets cloudy.
My ideal airgun scope would be a 6-14X, 40mm objective with target turrets, 1/4moa click adjustments and adjustable parallax, that allows for a bit of “wiggle room” at the higher magnifications where cheek weld is concerned.
Ronin
Don’t let my pointless bellyaching about my stock bother you. You will probably be too distracted looking at the tiny groupings you shoot with this rifle to find any complaints about the furniture. You may even like your stock, these things are all personal of course. Different smokes for different folks. You have made a wise purchase.
I second Cjr’s and davee1’s recommendations for the Crosman Premiers in the box. The JSB Exacts in 18.1 aren’t too shabby either. Buy LOTS of pellets, you will need them.
SL,
I actually ordered two of the cardboard boxes of .22 Premiers along with the Marauder and the dovetail mounts. I have probably close to 3K .177 pellets for the Discovery. (I found a stash that I had bought for my 1377.) Most of those consist of both domed and HP Premiers.
The .22 Premiers at 14.3 grains aren’t the heaviest out there, though they seem to be some of the more accurate in most of the reviews I’ve read.
I’ve seen the Eun Jins at 32.4 and the JSB Monsters at 25.4 grains. Those are some heavy pellets.
Next time I order pellets I’m going to try several different weights and styles, but I will likely always keep a supply of the Premiers around.
Great, tell us all about it.
Matt61
RoninUT,
I’m going to suggest adding another rifle to the mix for you. It’s quiet, accurate, highly “modable”, and at $508.00 within your budget. For another $95.00 you can also run the gun on CO2–hand to have if you’re pump takes a dump and also good for plinking and target shooting. Did I say that you can also switch barrels, changing the caliber or increasing the gun’s power by using a longer barrel.
Drum rolling please…………..it is none other than the AirForce Talon SS Check out the Talon forum at http://talonairgun.com/forum/.
Mr B.
I will like the edit function when it appears–on CO2-hand, add the “y” to hand and change if you’re pump to if your pump.
Mr B.
Mr B,
Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll have to do a little more looking in to the Talons.
Oh no!!!!
Not those evil black rifles!!!!
By the way…
I’m running the TSS on a 170 bar fill with the PW set to 0.8 right now. Shooting good so far .
twotalon
twotalon,
As the owner of a couple of AR15s, I have no aversion to black plastic and metal. Though I do appreciate a fine wood stock when I see one. 😀
Mr B,
I bought my Talon SS as a CO2 and it is indeed quiet and very accurate. Almost as quiet as the Marauder. However, I got ***** *** (angry) at the places that do CO2 fills and converted mine over to air. It is still very accurate but even on the lowest setting it is almost as loud as a .22LR. I still like it on air better because of all the “baggage” that comes with CO2.
-CJr
A help please question. Son number three is refinishing a guitar neck that is “flame maple”. What do you reccomend to enhance the flame in the grain? Will Tung oil do it or does it require some type of preparation before the oil finish?
Thanks folks,
Mr B.
Well, I don’t know what’s going on. The gremlins are at it again. Today clicking on a comment does not open in a new window. Now I have to use the back button to swap back and forth. Very inconvenient!
-CJr
RoninUT,
After reading Slinging Lead’s comments on the Marauder stock I got mine out and gave it a closer look. I expected to be disgusted by its appearance. But it was, like, well, yeah, I have seen better but what the heck. Yet, I can see what SL is talking about.
It’s just not that important to me. After I suck all the goodness out of the gun I can always buy a new stock before I sell it, if that’s important to the buyer.
The gun with scope does have heft I’ll acknowledge that. Without the scope it is two pounds heavier than the Discovery according to PA’s advertisements, but it’s not more than a half pound heavier than my Savage MKII .22LR varmint rifle, both with scopes, as weighed on my bathroom scale.
As far as aesthetics of the wood grain, I have seen more beautiful stocks but, like you, I didn’t buy the gun for show I bought it to shoot and Lord help any stock aficionado who takes his/her gun out into the woods unless all the trees are lined with velvet bark. Being a practical shooter I don’t think you’ll have any revulsion to the Marauder’s stock.
It is indeed a very quiet rifle right out of the box and very accurate. Both of these attributes are exactly what you’re looking for, too.
I hope this gives you something to help with your decision and I sure hope it doesn’t **** *** SL since he’s a respected member of this blog and by me as well.
-CJr
Chuck
You kinda sorta disagreed with some of what I had to say. How COULD you? Why I outta… Where do you live? Grrrrr. 😉
You could have said, “As usual, SL is full of ****.” Its cool brother, It wouldn’t be the first time.
As far as the stock goes, for some reason I really liked the stock before my purchase when I saw it online in videos, the PA site, etc etc. So basically my scorn is the result of dashed expectations. It was perhaps unreasonable to expect that a PCP airgun of the Marauder’s quality would have a beauty of a stock at $450. Then again, I suspect there is wide variability in the finish quality of the stocks between rifles as well. One area where I must stick to my guns is the cheesy laser checkering. C’mon, its a laser! And you have computers controlling them. They could do much better than this and it wouldn’t cost them anything more than an extra minute or two in the machine. The current checkering really only provides a place for dirt to get trapped, and only marginally improves the rifles grippiness.
My stock is destined to be my first foray into wood finishing.
CJr, SL,
It’s funny about the Benjamin stocks. I had lower expectations when I ordered the Discovery, but when it came it looked better than I thought it would. The most glaring imperfections in it are errors made on the sanding belt. If you hold the rifle out away from your face and look at the back of the butt, you will see a lot of asymmetry. And there are a couple of spots where you can see some sanding scratches that absorbed a lot of stain. It looks like they might have rushed a couple of grit stages while sanding. Finally, underneath the forearm there are a few tiny bubbles in the varnish (or whatever finish they use). Still, it’s actually better than I expected.
However, like Slinging Lead, I have seen some really attractive looking stocks in the photos of the Marauder, and I guess my expectations are a little higher for the more expensive rifle. Then again, if it is only a little better than the Discovery, I’ll be satisfied. If not, then I’ll still have a very fun and useful rifle (and a possible woodworking project if I decide to refinish it one day).
Frank B
If anyone gives you trouble, just let me know. I’ll whip up a special batch of my voodoo and zombify them. It took less than a year with Circuit City. I wish I could say it was years and years of disregard for their customers… but naw, it was me.
OK, I know it is a stupid question but, “Any new rifles Frank B?”
SlinginLead…..My biggest fan!:]No new rifles to report.Busy lovin’ the collection.Truly appreciating any new acquisition is a real time eater.[yeah,I know,boohoo.]But really,I haven’t gotten to first base with too many of the gals [rifles]I have picked up in the last 6 months.I don’t want to become obsessed with getting,so I am going to spend some quality time having and shooting!!I did just drop about 200 clams on some assorted .25 ammo and .308 ammo for my DAQ’s.I am ashamed to say I have had a DAQ .308 Exile for 4 months and not even fired it!Shame is my middle name!This airgun should hit 6″ targets at 300 yards!I’ll keep you updated of my progress.
Does anyone know if Dow Corning 33 is a suitable lubricant for the high pressure hand pumps?
Hey BB…hope your doing better.
Not to rock the boat, but I wonder how well the Browning would do with a scope. I’m sure with that power, they would really be more popular if the grouping were down to a half inch at 10 meters. Accuracy can do something without power, but power can’t do anything without accuracy.
This appears to have been a rather slow weekend for posting, at least that is the way it seems to me.
I heard this on “Criminal Minds” the other night, but I will not say it is a quote because I don’t remember it verbatim.
The first recorded war was about 2700 b.c. and after almost 5,000 years of killing each other it seems to be the only thing we are consistently good at.
Ryan
🙂 Do we need to set up counseling for your “Pellet Fetish” 😉
rikib
RikiB,
I don’t actually have a pellet fetish. I do, however, have a pellet phobia. In order to cure my phobia, I require systematic desensitization therapy. I will bathe in a tub of Kodiak Double Gold’s till I stop crying. The
joypain may be too great, but I will bare it.-Ryan
Just be careful where those pellets get to! 😉
rikib
Tom,
Sounds as if your health is improving. Hope it keep getting better so you can get back to full speed soon.
My question is about pellets. Am shooting a .177 Marauder and a .22 Blizzard. The .177 Marauder really likes teh 10.5grain pellets. Crosman domed and Benjamin Hollow Points.
In shooting a rifle like this for hunting do I really get any benefit from the hollow point pellet? They sound nice in theory but at a bit under or around 1000/900fps, do they make any real difference in hitting varmints and resulting in a quicker kill?
With the Evanix, same question but with a .22 pellet.
I am not shooting bars of soap or lumps of clay. Blackbirds, grackles, starlings, a lot of gophers and ground squirrils and the occasional racoon, skunk and even 2 coyotes this spring with two different .22 rifles.(one with the Evanix, one with a Tech Force 89)
Is there really any benefit to the hollow point pellet in hunting with these air rifles?
If you can, an article on it would be nice to see and read.
Daniel
Daniel,
I already did an article on the effectiveness of hollowpoint pellets. It’s here:
/blog/2007/1/do-hollowpoint-pellets-work/
No test has even been done that conclusively proves that hollowpoint pellets kill better than domes. In centerfire rifles, hollowpoints help contribute to hydrostatic shock and wound channel deformation. In centerfire handguns they deform and make larger wound channels. But nobody has done conclusive testing with pellets. I would say that your own experience should be your best guide.
I avoid hollowpoints because their accuracy drops off so quick. I know I can hit with a dome, so that’s what I shoot. But I don’t kill game with airguns that often.
B.B.
i like the browning 800 mag
w/is cocking effort
ralph c,
The cocking effort of this gun was mentioned in Part 2 of the report. It is 47 lbs.
B.B.
Keep oon working, great job!
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