by B.B. Pelletier
Announcement: Before we begin today’s report, here are some special products for you handymen. Pyramyd AIR has removed the adjustable buttpads from broken stocks of some high-quality guns. They’re offering these pads for a fraction of what a new adjustable pad would cost. There are two styles. One with a flat face and one with a curved face. These are great for hobbyists who are skilled in woodworking. They’re not kits and do not come with instructions.
One thing I’ve tried to pass along in this blog is the importance of physics to an airgunner. If you’re a new airgunner, I suggest that you open your mind to several of the important physical relationships that dominate our hobby.
Barrel length and velocity
Barrel length affects velocity differently in each of the different powerplants. It is most important to a pneumatic gun and the relationship is this: the longer the barrel, the more time the compressed air has to push against the base of the pellet and the higher the velocity will be. That assumes a wide open valve for a long period of time. In the Daystate rifles with electronic firing systems, for example, the valve is closed quickly to conserve air. That gives them more shots at a given power level and reduces the muzzle report. By the time the pellet exits, the internal pressure has dropped quite low.
In a Quackenbush Long Action, the valve remains open longer and the gun is much louder and more powerful. Also, an extended barrel on a Quackenbush will increase velocity, while an extended barrel on a Daystate with the electronic firing system would do nothing. Of course, I’m talking apples and oranges here because the Quackenbush is a big bore and the Daystate is a smallbore, but the principle holds exactly as I’ve explained it.
Naturally, there’s a point of diminishing returns for every rifle; and, at some point, adding length won’t increase velocity in any pneumatic. Out to, perhaps, 30 inches for a smallbore of at least .22 caliber, it does hold true.
In a CO2 rifle, the point of diminishing returns is reached much sooner. I remember a while back where one of our readers discovered that about 16 inches was the optimum length for his Crosman CO2 rifle. A 24-inch barrel actually shot slower. CO2 is a large molecule and can’t expand as rapidly as air, so that probably affects the relationship.
In a spring-piston rifle, the optimum barrel length is between 6 and 11 inches, depending on the swept volume of the compression chamber. Compared to a pneumatic, a springer uses just a puff of compressed air and relies on the champagne-cork physics of the pellet absorbing air pressure almost elastically until it literally blows out of the breech.
But this relationship has become common knowledge over the past 20 years, ever since the Cardews made their tests, and as a result, hotrodders have been cutting their barrels back for more speed. This is largely counter-productive, because the pellet doesn’t really slow down that much when it runs out of acceleration. It has already engraved the rifling in the sides and lead is a material with an almost self-lubricating property, so the small amount of velocity gain is usually not worth the risk of a poor crowning job or cutting away a natural choke point.
So, the answer to how long a barrel should be for optimum velocity is: “It depends….” That’s a lesson for the newer airgunner.
Barrel length and accuracy
Are longer barrels more accurate? Well, if they are, someone needs to tell Feinwerkbau, the makers of the model 700 international competition target rifle. Because they only have a 16.73″ barrel in a rifle that competes at the Olympic level. The rest of what looks like the barrel is actually a hollow aluminum tube. Why do they do that? Because they know that the sights must be separated as far as the rules permit for more precise aiming, but the length of the barrel has no affect on accuracy.
Why don’t “they” make a full-auto CO2 gun?
Let’s face it, guns like the Drozd and the Steel Storm are just teasing us with burst fire. Sure they go full-auto, but only for up to six rounds. We want a gun that can keep on shooting till the barrel melts down.
One problem with that. The barrel never will melt down. Instead, it will freeze up. And, everyone who has ever tried to make a full-auto CO2 gun has encountered that barrier. I don’t own any full-auto CO2 guns, but I know that I can reduce the velocity of a semiauto by 100 f.p.s. and even more just by firing fast. So, imagine what a 900 rpm cyclic rate will do. I know of several projects to convert Crosman 600s into full-auto that failed for this reason.
Why don’t “they” make a solid, boattail pellet
This is going to be a combination of physical science and a philosophical discussion. New airgunners get wrapped up in the high velocity thing. It doesn’t take them very long to discover that the principal enemy of high velocity is the diabolo pellet. Then they either know or they find out that the boattail spitzer bullet is the most streamlined ballistic projectile around. Why not just make a boattail spitzer pellet?
Well, one problem is that most airguns haven’t got enough power to shoot a boattail bullet (let’s not call them pellets, because they really aren’t). No problem, they figure, we’ll just use an AirForce Condor — the most powerful smallbore air rifle around.
Okay, that would probably work. And, if it did, what would you have? A pellet gun that shot a 35-grain boattail spitzer bullet at around 1,000 f.p.s. There would be very little ballistic difference between it and a .22 long rifle cartridge. It would travel 1.5 miles and have the same inherent safety problems as the rimfire from things such as ricochets. Why not just buy a .17 HM2 and jump to the logical conclusion.
What I’m saying is that there’s very little advantage in turning a pellet rifle into a firearm, in my opinion.
“Oh yeah?” you counter. “Then, why are you always hyping big bores?”
I do it because they’re historically accurate and true to airgun history. They shoot slow, heavy bullets that do their job through kinetic energy, the same as they’ve done for several centuries. They’ve been around five times longer than today’s smallbores, so they do qualify as real airguns.
Turning a pellet rifle into a rimfire has very little attraction to me. I enjoy the safety that the diabolo shape (wasp waist, hollow tail, high drag) gives to airguns. When I really want to rock and roll, I shoot a .17 HM2 or a .22 Hornet that I treat with the same respect as any other firearm.
More grist for the mill
Speaking of the AirForce Condor, are you aware they’re now available in colors? Henry Ford eventually gave in to the demand for colored cars, and AirForce has now taken the same steps with their colored black rifles.
“Black rifle” is a slang term meaning paramilitary and military designs similar to the U.S. M-16. Until now, all AirForce sporting rifles have been finished black in keeping with that heritage. Now there are color choices. You can have a Condor in red or blue, and you can also have a Talon SS in red or blue. Perhaps, there will be additional color runs in the future, and perhaps even the Talon will someday be available in color.
B.B. there are some things i already knew but short-long barrel is a myth that you just solved to me 🙂
B.B.,
The thought of CO2 rapid-fire, or a less delayed fire to achieve the same/similar fps as the first has made me think. Mind you I am no college person! What if a copper rod/wire was inserted into the CO2 chamber, the other end connected to a battery source in the gun handle. Of course this would have to be regulated in some manner so as not to over-heat the CO2.
Have you ever heard of anyone trying something like this, or am I just looney? 🙂 🙂
rikib
rikib,
About 15 years ago, some experimenters were wrapping their CO2 guns with electrically heated hunting sox to keep them warm. Nothing came of it, though.
B.B.
B.B.,
Oh well, it was just a thought. I was thinking more on the line of just heating the cartridge, but I’m no genius. Just an idle mind. 🙂
rikib
Beautiful, bold colors on those Air Force air rifles. (For some reason they remind me of spearguns that 007 might use). I suppose at some point there will have to be a pink version, to entice more women into the sport. (-:
Regards from chilly, barely morning Marin county, y’all.
Joe B,
Ah, you’re in the bay area, CA. Nice. I got Marin confused w/ MACON. Duh.
Frank B, I think the red electric hunting socks should be appropriate. Come to think of it, maybe the reason for these two colors are in response to the Crips’ and Bloods’ starting up some field target. In which case all you’d need is a bandanna in the appropriate color pulled down over your eyes and one flopping from your back pocket.
Wayne, Is there a dress code on your range? Wife beaters and house slippers ok?
KA
KA
Marin/Macon, I can see how you got confused as the two places are so similar….NOT!
I seem to remember seeing a picture of Wayne on this blog wearing what appeared to be green jeans, so no, I don’t think Mr. Burns enforces a dress code. Just as long as you obey the Match Director at all times!
Wife beaters and house slippers? HA! You are on a roll today Kid.
KA,
Go to Macon then head SW for about 90 mins. Dress code in stores includes house slippers, sometimes items that appear to be pajamas!
If your going out shooting, or going outside to do any type of work Start Dirty! We have have an abundance of red clay, even some roads that are completely red clay. My Wrangler loves them, so do I (until clean up time comes). 🙂 🙂
rikib
KA,
Dress Code? Not on my watch! You must not have looked closely at some of the pictures:-)
I’m known for being the sloppiest dresser on the planet. How can I stay clean, and have fun, or get things done…. so, I just put on dirty clothes to start the day:-) Then I never have to worry about getting dirty.
Think about it moms, all the yelling at kids for getting dirty…. at least 75% of it would disappear, just put clean clothes on the kids once a week, like me:-)
Saves on laundry time too. Less pollution in the rivers, global worming, and war on the planet, think about it. If everyone would just wear the same clothes for 7 days in a row, the world would be saved forever.
Wacky Wayne ism
OH NO!! Red and blue AF guns?
I guess you would have less of a chance of a SWAT team being called down on you if ‘Mr. Cellphone’ was driving by and saw you with it…..or the old bat living across the street.
twotalon
twotalon,
If you picked up a couple of these colored talons, would you then be fourtalon? 🙂
KA
Yeah, hopefully they’ll think it’s a water pistol or a toy. Some toy!
Fred PRoNJ
What belt and shoes go with a red Condor,Mr.Blackwell?? I think it is a good idea to offer these,from a marketing standpoint…now that they are already set up for the Edge.Maybe boost sales,maybe soften some parent’s reactions to “I really need one,Dad!!”.
FRED
Perfect. A bright red Talon SS with a huge ‘Super Soaker’ decal on the side. You have turned a never wanted into a must have. Thanks a lot.
Best regards to you, and the other fine residents of the Garden State.
Re: Barrel length and velocity
In a race for velocity there’s a large segment of airgunners that “chop and recrown” their barrels.
It should be mentioned that most of these clever “airgunsmiths” cut off the choke at the end of some barrels and ruin accuracy. At the very least, almost without exception, the firing behavior becomes very harsh and the shorter barrel gives less leverage making the gun a chore to cock.
You can discover hundreds of these rocket scientists by searching “how do I rechoke a barrel?”.
kevin
Kevin:
I was a sinner who has since repent 🙂
About twenty odd years ago when the British army adopted the SA80 ‘Bullpup’ assault rifle I had a ‘tactical’ Plastic stock side lever springer with loading tap.
Wanting the ‘Bullpup’ Look, I hacksawed off most of the barrel leaving a couple of inches and fitted a silencer over what remained of the barrel.
Mission accomplished, I now had a bullpup type air rifle that couldn’t shoot for. ….lol
The things we do when we are young eh 🙂
DaveUK
Kevin,I watched a video on youtube where a guy did just that.I think he went by “airgun lover”I remember thinking to myself:yup,he just LOVED that barrel:]Now it shoots like it’s all LOVED up.
I have a question. Why are there so few “black gun” type airguns? With the popularity of AR style rifles one would expect more on the market. The only real affordable option I know of is the Airforce line and no one would argue with their success.
Bub,
Several other companies have made black rifles. The Logun Sweet 16 is one example and FX has made at least one, I think. But they aren’t as popular as the traditional style of rifle, that’s for sure.
B.B.
Bub
That is a shrewd observation. I would think that there would be a at least a few pellet guns that were a carbon copy of the AR-15 from the exterior. Especially when you look at the airgun pistol market, where nearly every gun is trying to look like a firearm equivalent.
There are plenty of black guns in the airsoft realm however.
There is also the Chinese BAM B3-1 sidelever that looks like an AK47. To shoot accurately you will have to send it to Derrick for the 7 part blog treatment.
Someone made a single pumper quite a while back that looked a lot like an AR/M16. May have been Crosman.
twotalon
twotalon,
Crosman made an A.I.R. 17, but I believe it’s a multi-pump.
B.B.
No mas. Already did my penance. Besides, now I can point to the blog and say “B3-1? Ha! Fend for thyself”
Hi BB:
The Airforce Talon looks remarkably like the Gunpower Stealth I briefly owned.
Do Airforce trade under different names in the UK?
Thanks.
DaveUK
Dave,
Yes. They are made on the same machinery, but with different performance specs. And there are a couple GunPower models without power adjustment, while all the AirForce models except the edge have it.
B.B.
Thanks BB:
The Gunpower Stealth is very highly thought of here and by what I’ve read quite easy to ‘Jazz up’as well.
Mine unfortunately had a fault in the trigger mechanism so I took it straight back to the shop.
The guy said I would have to wait three weeks for a repair as he had no more in stock.
This tipped the balance because I really liked the Logun S16 as well.
“Ok,keep the Stealth,here is another 100 bucks,give me the Logun”.
How cruel is fate?, I now have neither rifle and can no longer financially afford to be such a petulant pratt. LOL
DaveUK
B.B.
That was a great “All in One” primer. Wow, the way you are able to condense big ideas into clear, bite size tasty knowledge nuggets.
I think I’ll print that one out, and put it up on the wall by the shooting shed.
Thanks again for all you do. Bless your speedy recovery!
Wacky Wayne
Those colored Condors and Talons…
The black look made them look serious and military, cool yet perhaps even sinister, and with color they look like toys.
It is amazing that a simple color change causes your mind to emotionally react completely differently to the same physical form/shape, isn’t it?
I think the colored ones would defiantly cut down on the fear-factor any gun-sensitive neighbor would have when seeing these AirForce rifles.
But they do not look as “cool.” 🙂
You want nasty??
Look at the Condor Bounty Hunter.
twotalon
I’ve discovered a bit of physics to make an old subject new, at least for me. I know that we seem to have exhausted the discussion about the shape of air transfer ports. But while reading my book of automotive engineering, in the section about carburetors, I came across the “venturi” which is basically a funnel shape. By decreasing the diameter for air flow, it speeds up the flow rate at a certain point for some purpose that I don’t recall. Speeding up airflow is the ideal thing for launching pellets. So, is there a reason why the venturi is not used for airguns? Or is it, and I don’t just know about it? I seem to remember that one possible objection to the venturi is that by decreasing the diameter of air flow, it will act on a smaller area of the pellet to move it. However, the equation for pressure P=F/A where P is pressure, F is force and A is area seems to say that a smaller area for the applied pressure does not reduce its effect. So, someone bring me up to speed on the venturi shape for air transfer ports.
Regarding airgun black rifles, Anschutz makes an AR-15 lookalike that is a PCP for about $2000. However, I’m certainly not tempted to swap my 1907. I’ve never gotten into the wild colors of target rifles. The black AF rifles look the best to me.
Kevin, thanks for your surprising information about Jim Horner. That must be the fellow. There can’t be that many large music professor hunters by that name in Leadville, CO. The clincher is that he had a wife named Ginny, but I’m sure that’s him. No, I had no idea that he had passed away. We didn’t keep in touch. We never even knew him that well. He came out to Hawaii to try teaching at my Dad’s college and didn’t like it and moved back to Colorado. However, he did give me a copy of Shotgun News to look at when I was a kid, so he was a link the chain. Any details about his passing or news about Ginny would be appreciated.
Matt61
Matt61,
the venturi was used, as you said, to speed up the airflow through the carburetor. If you look at your formula, pressure and speed are inversely related so the faster the airspeed, the lower the air pressure. That lower pressure in the throat of the carb enables the gas to be pulled up out of the carburetor float bowl, past or through the jet(s)- which serve to meter the amount of fuel – and into the airstream, where it atomizes. It’s called Bernoulli’s Principle – same principle that applies to airplane wings (lower pressure on top, higher pressure on bottom due to shape of wing – pressure on bottom lifts wings). So, speed up the air, lower the pressure. Lower the speed, higher pressure – it doesn’t provide a benefit for an airgun port.
Jane, how’d I do? 🙂
Fred PRoNJ
Fred, I can say that you certainly understand carburetors better than I do. And having myself mangled Bernoulli’s principle on another occasion, I’m cautious. However, I’m pretty sure that you’ve got it right in this case. Pressure does indeed drop laterally when a fluid flow is increased. But I’m envisioning a different use of the venturi where we’re not using the pressure on the side of the flow but in the same direction. Bernoulli’s principle wouldn’t apply there. So if the air is going faster forward, shouldn’t it exert more force on the pellet? For P=F/A, you should have an increased force from faster moving air as well as a decreased area since your opening narrows both of which will increase the pressure that drives the pellet.
And let’s not forget the carbuncles modeled on humpback whales on the face of the venturi to suppress any turbulence. He he.
We need Jane’s input, let’s see if we can entice her with a movie reference. There is some movie, is it called Field of Dreams (or is that the baseball movie). Anyway this one is about a bunch of kids who dream of building a rocket with the help of a very good-looking teacher who keeps mooning over the lead kid. Anyway, they keep building models that blow up. Then one of them gets an inspiration for a thing that looks very much like a venturi. That’s it. Their fortunes change. They win a science fair project and successfully launch a scale model. I think one or more of the kids becomes an astronaut. Anyway, what I recall as a venturi seems very much front and center to the rocketry, so I’m sure Jane has the answer.
Matt61
And let’s not forget
I think that movie was called “October Sky”, but I’m not sure.
Yes, I’m sure that was it.
Matt61
Matt,
Sorry to say Bernoulli (and entropy) still rule. Yes, you increase the velocity, but the lower pressure results in lower density, thus lower mass to go with the velocity. Add in the increase in turbulence and things actually get worse.
All – been away a while, just now catching up. Lots of good stuff!
Alan in MI
Wow. Like Herb, I should have kept my mouth shut (well fingers actually) and just kept reading. Having finally got to the current post I thought I could contribute . . .
As air passes through a venturi, mass does not change. Density can change, but only if volume changes as well.
Matt,
Here you go:
/blog/2010/2/changeable-air-transfer-ports/
/blog/2008/11/the-air-transfer-port-part-3/
B.B.
Ah yes, the search feature comes through. I see that the venturi ports that are diagrammed funnel in (decrease diameter) on the incoming side but funnel out (increase diameter) on the outgoing side. That seems to reverse the effect of what you’re trying to do. I was envisioning a port that narrows only. Since the diameter of the opening gets smaller, the air has to go through faster to maintain the flow rate. Faster air should mean faster propulsion, right? The idea still looks alive.
Matt
RE: “venturi”
You’re also not just trying to get the gas flowing fast. You also want the gas molecules to flow straight down the barrel (in a line parallel to the boreline). In rocket technology the same principal is applied and creates what is know as the de Laval nozzle. That doesn’t really happen in a barrel because the barrel is long and the pellet “blocks” the flow, so the gas molecules will bump into each other. But the notion is sound. Better gas flow down the barrel should yield a faster pellet.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Laval_nozzle
That was Jane Hansen asked the innocent question “Anybody asked a rocket scientist about how to design a better transfer port?” She hasn’t posted much recently but was a very knowledgeable source and answered many questions here. I miss her presence.
I’m certainly guess that for a given gun and a given pellet that you could fiddle around and design a “slightly” better transfer port. But I’d guess we’re talking about a 20% change not a 20X improvement.
The other part that I don’t remember being discussed as much is how should the gas flow through the port and how should the backside of the pellet be design so that the skirt gets expanded sealing the barrel nicely?
So there are a lot of variables. Anything you do to optimize for a particular pellet is likely to make the gun more pellet picky.
Geeze — should have read a few posts down.
LOL,
Herb
A camo condor would be cool!!!!!
Afternoon B.B.,
Wonderful to see you’re back! I’ve been away at the cabin on sunny Cayuga Lake and have allot of catch up reading! I personally don’t see any reason for a hunting rifle in blue or red, but as ajvenom said a camo condor would sure be cool.
Mr B.
Mr B,welcome back.I’ve wondered where you were.I’m jealous…I caught my first largemouth bass in Cayuga lake about 33 years ago!I remember it like it was yesterday.I have been a threat to bass ever since!
Fred:
You pretty much hit it. The car venturi’s sole purpose was to pull the gasoline into the airflow. A venturi is still a conservation-compliant device. No energy is gained. In fact, the energy of the air exiting the venturi is less than that of the same air when it entered.
I’m a bit perplexed on the CO2 discussion. The fall-off in performance has little to do with the temperature of the gun, but with the temperature of the CO2, (which lowers rapidly as liquid CO2 converts to vapor). One would think that an 88g CO2 cartridge could be electrically heated or heat-sinked to fire off a few long bursts. Maybe we could try an electric sock on an 850air-magnum!
I also loved the Logun S-16 but never bought one. Now that I can, they seem to be off the market. Are they coming back? Is the Evanix prototype, (Black Leopard?), going to come to market?
Best regards,
Jane
I think the Talon SS or other version would be ideal for testing the heated CO2 bottle effects. The bottle is the stock, exposed and easily wrapped with a heating device such as a heating pad. It would also make a nice warm, cozy cheek weld. I remember BB remarking about an even using a heating pad but now I don’t remember what he said. If it was a dangerous thing to do I would be willing to wait for twotalon to test it. 🙂
-CJr
No thanks.
I don’t do CO2 anyway.
twotalon
Don’t heat the CO2 canister – they don’t have a safety valve. I think a heated (warmed) transfer port would be safe and should achieve the same goal for some guns. But, my 600 has gone full auto a couple times – I don’t think you can cool it fast enough for something like that.
MCA
(nice spell check)
MCA,
Thanks for the tip. I guess I won’t be trying that. I remember a segment on American Airgunner recently about CO2 guns where Tom and Paul had left their CO2 pistols out in the sun and the heat from the sun was enough to cause so much pressure inside the guns that hammers locked and they wouldn’t fire. Maybe I’ll just stick to speculation.
🙂
-CJr
That happened to me one time. I left a Crosman pistol in my car in the summer and it would not fire until it cooled down.
twotalon
RE: Heated transfer port
Wouldn’t be much improvement. Jane was right of course. The drop in pressure is caused by the liquid phase of the CO2 cooling. That reduces the pressure of the CO2 gas in the reservoir. It is the pressure of the gas in the reservoir that is pushing the gas through the transfer port.
It is same principle as blowing on hot coffee. The moving air creates more steam. In order to convert liquid water to steam a lot of energy is used. So you don’t have to lose a lot of volume of water to drop the temperature of the coffee quite a bit.
If you really want to go wild, I’d design a system to heat the tank to about 85 F. That would be just below the critical point of CO2. You’d also measure the heat loss per shot. Then you’d need to “pulse” that much heat per shot into the cylinder. You’d probably need a heating element directly in the reservoir making the design quite complicated compared to what it is now.
Think the rifle is heavy now? Try adding a two pound rechargeable battery to heat the CO2.
I wasn’t really considering all factors when I originally thought about using a rod/wire to keep CO2 chamber heated. Now I’m thinking that once the gun is fired (CO2 discharged) there will still be a delay before the CO2 is back to optimal temperature regardless of whether or not cartridge/cartridge chamber is heated. Don’t know if any of that makes sense.
rikib
Ah, I was afraid of energy conservation, but I’m curious how it works here. If the air is coming faster out of the small end of the venturi, with greater kinetic energy of the molecules one would suppose, where is the energy lost? Is it from the molecules crashing into each other in the smaller space?
All, how about a compressed air machine gun? Would you run out of air too fast since it seems so much harder to compress than CO2?
Matt61
RE: Carb and gas temp
The carburetor works by sucking liquid gasoline into the airflow. The liquid gas is converted into small droplets, and some of the gas is evaporated. The evaporation cools the air in the airflow.
Of course the engine is hot, so by the time the gasoline/air mixture is in the cylinder it is hotter than ambient.
I actually like the colored guns. Of course, I wouldn’t want to see a breakbarrel or something in bright red, but for guns that ‘don’t really look like guns’, its alright.
A question for Wayne Burns: What is a Quigley Shoot?
I have the movie “Quigley Down Under”. Dang near wore it out.
Quigley lands a sharpshooter job by replying to an ad. He returned the ad with a group of holes in it shot at 900 yards. Distance noted and signed. Nice reply.
Early in the movie he demonstrates his skill to his new employer by repeatedly hitting a wooden bucket at a range of around a thousand yards. The shooting was faked for the movie, but still impressive.
Throughout the movie he drills bad guys at similiar ranges.
But Wayne, how is this scaled down for airguns? I’d like to try this myself. Do you shoot at a “bucket”? A Dixie cup, perhaps?
Off topic: has anybody heard from Ryan? He left on a rather disturbing note, and I have been worried about him.
Les
A bucket would probably be about a foot wide, and a bit taller. That would be 12″ at 1000 yds. Scaled down by a factor of 100, that would be .12″ at 10 yds.
So a .22 short casing would be about right at 20 yds.
twotalon
OOPS!
You would need to subtract the width of a pellet too, because you have to hit with the point, not just nick it.
So with a .177 pellet, you would have to hit a target only .0423″ wide at 20 yds.
That would be .423″ at 200 yds, and about the size of a .22 short brass at 100 yds.
twotalon
I fouled that up when I scaled down too much, then subtracted a pellet width then upscaled for more distance.
At 100 yds you would have to hit a target 1.2″ wide. The little dixie cups that measure about 2″ across the top would be about right at about 150 yds,
twotalon
Les, & TwoTalon,
Thanks for the info from the movie, I was wondering myself and didn’t know how to answer Matt61s’ question the other day.
We did some guessing, and used 10 wooden blocks that are 1-1/2″x1-1/2″ x 2-1/2″ tall. Each shooter shot once at 5 blocks. We set up a planter box at 50 yards, filled with sand and tilted it toward the shooters. The sand is nice for seeing where you hit as you take your one shot per block.
We used iron sights, low power guns like older 392s with 4 pumps, or Marks’ nice 10 meter FWB600, who won the day with 2/5 knock overs. The Bronco did well with two guys getting 1/5 with it. We shot standing offhand.
As it got dark, I put self stick reflective tape on the blocks, and we shined some bright lights on them. They looked like eyes in the dark night. We kept having fun knocking them over until 1 am!
I’m thinking of making a Quigley target kit.
These seem to be the best targets to play the game, because they fall over, to cheers from the shooters and watchers, where as a bucket or paper bucket is hard to know if you hit it, so there is no excitement until you find out, then, it’s a little late. We started with the paper bucket target, and only 1/2 the guys were playing, and for just a little while, but when I got the blocks going, everyone was lined up to take their turn late into the night. And the sand pit is great for showing the shooter how to adjust for the next shot.
It’s really is great fun and satisfying to see em fall.
Wacky Wayne,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Wayne,
That souds like a great idea! I especially like the reflective tape idea.
That reminds me of something I did today. I was shooting Shoot-N-See reactive targets stuck on a cat litter box. Not the one the cat uses, the one the litter itself comes in. These have nice handles on top. I found a big pile of discarded concrete railroad ties, and was shooting at the ends of the ties. Made a great backstop. I hung the box by its handle on a protruding rebar and shot off a sandbag on the hood of my car.
Shooting at thirty yards, I discovered one of my guns that I hadn’t shot for some time had the scope so far out of adjustment I wasn’t getting on the paper. I keep an old golfball in my gun ditty bag. By shooting at the golfball at thirty yards on the sand, I was able to tell how to adjust the scope.
Glad you liked my comments on the movie. You really ought to watch it sometime. It stars Tom Selleck.
Les
About Ryan, he did leave us on a rather disturbing note but he also said he was getting evicted, I don’t know where he was moving but chances are he doesn’t have access to internet.
J-F
Just a note, long ago I bought the AIR 17 crosman, it is a nice single pump pneumatic. It was very simple how they added just a handle sight and different buttstock and forend to a regular receiver and accomplished such a nice feeling gun. That was from the days before airsoft, and was nice to see generic replicas of other guns, maybe nowadays airsoft fills the need for sporty looks.
Anyhow, the AIR17 is nice, It’s a keeper.
Slavia 634 has “shorten”barrel for 10 cm when you compare it with 631 ,634 has shortened piston and piston seal is more like to one in Diana then in 631 or 630 ,even spring is shorter so now how does this relate with this blog, well guys several days ago i asked B.B. what is the difference between GUN AND RIFLE ,of course he answered to me that rifle is rifled (who would say 🙂 )and gun can have smooth bore (shotgun..) so if you are not an expert with a proper tools choping barrel spell dissaster ,you dont wanna mess with rifled bore ,well you can chop a gun ,like shotgun -but here this is illegal
Dear Edith,
On Thursday 7 AUG 2010, B.B. wrote:
‘Every now and then, I’m reminded of just what this blog is doing for airgunning. Now that may sound self-serving, but I assure you I don’t mean it to be. The power of this blog isn’t in my writing, but in yours! You readers are the world’s finest panel of airgunning experts ever assembled, and you prove it every day.’
Regrettably, the power and value of this ‘finest panel’ is being entirely wasted by the nearly useless search utility of the blog. If it doesn’t search the blog comments then all this knowledge goes to waste. It has now been several weeks since the inception of the new blog format (which I still don’t like), and still the capability to include the blog comments in the search is not implemented. It is high time.
(Yes, S.L., I know that a careful search involving jumping through several hoops may find these comments too, but that is no solution. Ease of use in this fast-paced world of ours is key.)
-AlanL
AlanL
It is good to see you on the blog.
I totally agree with you about the recent search engine. I find it nearly useless. Unfortunately, I must jump through hoops as you describe by using Google’s advanced search features as Kevin described to me if I want to find any of the old gems.
We must keep in mind that the caretakers of this blog have had some serious distractions as of late, and may not have been able to fine tune things as much as they would like. The fact that the blog has kept going at all is a testament to the dedication of the authors.
These details will work out in due time. Be patient. And keep participating.
Best Regards
Has anyone else been watching American Airgunner?
Paul is nailing silhouette targets at 100 yards, standing, off-hand, with open sights with an RWS 350 magnum springer. That is some remarkable shooting. As R. Lee Ermey would say, “OUTSTANDING!” But then he would call you a maggot.
There is also the episode with a Benjamin Discovery with a custom zebra-wood stock by James Linthicum. This beautiful stock is very difficult to detect in this particular episode due to the fact that the rifle is being shot by Crystal Ackley. Somehow she interferes with my ability to concentrate on airguns. There are only three words to describe her: yowza, and hubba hubba.
I do miss the big, bald guy though. Maybe he’ll make a cameo?
Slinging Lead,
The big bald guy isn’t so big these days. He still cannot fly on the airlines, but he got his IV removed yesterday and is starting to eat solid food for the first time in 3-1/2 months. So things are improving.
B.B.
B.B.
That’s great news. Are they restricting your diet for a while, or can you go for the gusto??
twotalon
twotalon,
It’s a very restricted diet. We have to give my pancreas time to get used to producing digestive enzymes again. So no Big Macs yet. The doctor also said this wasn’t the weekend to take up drinking.
B.B.
B.B.
That has to really hurt. No drinking or junk food….the two major food groups.
What really hurt me was the TV commercials for all kinds of good stuff when everything either smelled and tasted bad, or had no taste. It was easier to live on Ensure or the Wallyworld brand in chocolate flavor.At least it tasted like chocolate enough that I could stand to drink it.
twotalon
twotalon,
I can have Ensure. In fact, it is recommended because it contains some protein.
B.B.
B.B.
I wonder if those muscle building high protien drinks would help too.
Don’t know what they cost or how they taste.
twotalon
twotalon,
I participated in Body For Life, a bodybuilding program run by EAS, and I drank hundreds of those drinks. Some are very good and none are really bad. But they contain so many carbs that they will over-stress my pancreas I think.
However, I will look into it. Also the bars. Certain bars are actually very good for you. Not the ones sold at Wally World, but some of the ones sold in health food stores and online.
B.B.
B.B.,
Good to hear you’ve returned to the world of the eating! I was hoping you could celebrate with a nice steak dinner, but, hey, that will come later.
I can’t imagine what it would be like to be on an IV for as long as you were. When I was recovering from a throat operation, the IV line to my left arm pulled out of my vein while I was asleep. It stayed in me, feeding fluid under my skin. When I awoke my arm was badly swollen and “squishy”. Really hurt.
This is really a big milestone for you. Congratulations.
Les
Les,
Funny you mention the squishy arm, because that is what sent me to the hospital in the first place. My home health care nurse pulled my midline IV out four inches so she could reposition the lumens (the IV connections) to a more convenient place. She told us she always did that, but we were unaware she was doing it to my midline as she was redressing it.
A midline is in the arm only 16 centimeters. She was thinking that I had a PIC line, which would have been in 16 inches. When she was done, there were only 2.4 inches of midline left in my arm, and the infusion leaked out the IV entrance hole. It hurt like hell and my arm swelled up and got all squishy.
The hospital PIC nurse refused to insert another midline in that arm, and I had a small blood clot in the other arm, so my doctor said I could try solid food for this weekend.
B.B.
B.B.,
You were still on IV until YESTERDAY???!!! That is astonishing. I do not believe I have ever heard of anybody be on it that long except coma patients. Glad you’re on the mend. I believe a celebratory Prince of Wales omelette is called for, for tomorrow’s brunch. Edith, go shopping!
All the best,
AlanL
B.B.
THAT’S TERRIFIC NEWS!!! FINALLY OFF THE IV! AND EATING REAL FOOD. YEAH, YEAH YEAH!
That trade deal fell thru for the next batch of .45lc ammo, but I’ve got my club members reloading my empties now. So, I’m in “ammo abundance”, and I’m gonna still send you some more ammo, now that your about to be able to get back to the range again.
I know those new .45 long colt pistol and rifles are calling you:-)
Wacky Wayne
Wayne,
No need to send more ammo. I will be reloading the several hundred cases I have for many years.
It will still be some weeks before I get out to the range again, but at least the light at the end of the tunnel isn’t the headlight of an oncoming train any longer.
B.B.
BB,
Great news being able to eat solid food again. That’s one heck of a diet you’ve been on! You are sounding better too my friend.
KA
KA,
I’d hold off on the “how I sound” comment until you hear the August podcast. I sound like a hoarse mouse in a tunnel.
B.B.
LOL! I’ll check it out.
KA
B.B.
You should have heard me when my voice started to go.
At first, something like a combination of Fran Dreshure (sp?) and Janis Joplin. Then Andy Devine. Finally it quit almost totally.
Went out in about a week. Came back about as fast. Then it took time to learn how to talk again after making nothing but whispers and squeaky noises for 2 or 3 months.
twotalon
Matt, Herb, et al..
Now we’re really playing in my court….
The movie was based on a book, “Rocket Boys” by Sonny Hickam. Sonny was a NASA engineer and Mission Training Specialist who spent his high school years experimenting with home-built rockets. Several of my colleagues met Sonny years back. Those were the days before we used computational fluid dynamics to understand gas flow.
To venturis. A true venturi starts wide, narrows, then widens at exit. Particle speed on exit is identical to that on entry, (and more importantly, not all of the particles in the restriction ever increased in speed. At the restriction, lateral pressure is reduced, and if we use this differential to move gasoline, lawn fertilizer, or paint, (they all do the same thing), then we have a pump that consumes energy to do work. The energy of the mass on exit then, must be lower. If we don’t do work, then nothing lost, but nothing gained.
Rocket nozzles use similar restrictions to speed exhaust flow at certain times for certain objectives, but in a rocket nozzle, the “mission” is probably simpler.
Rocket exhaust does not “push” against anything to move the rocket, it is basic newtonian physics – every action has an equal an opposite reaction, and as we fine-tune the exiting exhaust stream, we similarly tune the motion and control of the rocket.
A transfer port has a completely different mission. We have a bunch of energy/gas molecules on one side of the port, and we need to move it to the other side. The objective isn’t to move the rifle, but a projectile we’ve placed in the exhaust stream. Complicating the mission, (unlike rockets), the fuel burn is not steady state. Instead, we’re transferring a “pulse” of energy, which rises and falls with the movement of the piston, and optimum design for one point in time, may not be so for another.
Further consideration is the desire to extract the most energy from the spring: We know that compressing gasses rise in temperature. This is spring energy being lost as heat, and we want to capture as much as possible. We can capture the energy by minimizing heat, (and pressure), by transferring fast. We can also capture energy by allowing the heat to increase chamber pressure, and capturing that energy by transferring slower. Too slow, and the heat moves into the steel receiver and gas pressure drops. So, to some extent, we need to match the transfer port to the spring, (and this is the rocket-nozzle piece).
Additionally, if the transfer port is entirely non-restrictive compared to the frictional and inertial forces of the pellet, then breech, barrel, and pellet criteria become more important than the transfer port.
So, just to provide food for thought, and think in broad terms of energy as well as specifics of the particle physics:
The speed of the transfer determines the rate of our ability to capture or lose spring energy. But, from a particle perspective, we want the exit orifice the same diameter as the pellet, and the diameter controls speed.
We also want a long transfer port to align the particles to the barrel, but this also restricts our ability to vary transfer speed.
We also want to optimize the “dwell time” of the pellet. Ideally, the pellet is accelerating its entire time in the barrel, but we also need to capture and transfer all of the energy while we still “have” the pellet. This means different transfer ports for different barrel lengths, but each change may sub-optimize our energy capture from the spring.
It soon becomes obvious that we have massive amount of optimizing and compromising to do – as I said many months ago, transfer-port design is probably a full-time job…
Jane
Jane,
Thanks for a great, understandable, explanation of transfer-port design issues. It was a wonderful read!
Cold CO2 problems debate,
As far as heating CO2, I think it’s a little silly, when one can just convert to high pressure air. Small 4500# carbon tanks are so light and easy. And when one considers the cost of disposable CO2 over time, or bulk CO2 set ups, the HPA option seems a no brainer to me.
What has CO2 got over HPA? More shots on low power is the only thing I can think of.
Wacky Wayne
I think it’s also a question of heat transfer rate. I don’t see an easy, portable, and controllable way to feed in the right amount of heat, particularly since the temperature will drop in steps after each shot of a fast series. I don’t see anything wrong with CO2 as long as you can stay cooler than around 85 degrees F, in other words, well below the critical point and stay reasonably warm so you’re operating with very small changes in pressure above the liquid. The larger the CO2 reservoir, the smaller effect a series of shots will have on the overall temperature, so an 88 gram container might outperform a 12 gm one (both being near full).
Note that FWB and Steyr both make excellent 5-shot pistols for rapid fire competition. So the problem can be handled within limits.
Jane, thanks. Always nice to see you play on your court. I guess I wasn’t thinking of the Venturi in its original state. It makes sense to me that a conduit that goes wide, narrow, wide and also uses lower pressure at the narrow point to do work will definitely have a reduced energy of the mass that comes out the end. But what if you used a conduit that only went from wide to narrow with the narrow end precisely matching the pellet diameter (and no lateral bleed offs at the narrow point to do work)? It seems like the flow rate of the air would increase and heighten the energy of launching the pellet. I know that this would not necessarily optimize all of the factors you mention and may in seem cases even move them in the wrong direction. But in the complicated panorama, it would seem to be a step forward. What’s wrong with this picture?
Do you recall the name of the exotic funnel shape in the movie that seemed to be a breakthrough for the kids? I was watching the movie on an airplane without earphones, so I didn’t get the details.
Matt61
Jane,
I’m not sure I follow your argument on a long, straight transfer port. The pellet isn’t primarily being pushed out the barrel by a ‘wind’ from the moving gas, but rather by a semi-static pressure buildup behind the skirt and the expansion of that propelling gas down the barrel as the pellet moves. The problems are somewhat different for springers, pcp, and CO2, particularly with springers because the pressure pulse lasts longer and probably builds slower too as compared to dumping circa 800-1000 psi in a couple of milliseconds from PCP or CO2 when the valve opens wide.
Anyway, as a counter example, my IZH-46M has a transfer port with a right angle diverting the gas from horizontal to vertical, and then another right angle diverting the gas into the breech, all in less than a centimeter with an aperture of 3-4 millimeters. I would assume that the aperture is large enough compared to the length that the boundary effects are small, but I’ve never calculated it out. I would also think checking the Reynolds number to see if the flow is laminar or turbulent could be interesting.
You could use a venturi as a bottleneck to limit the rate at which the gas transfers from the reservoir (CO2, pcp, spring compression chamber) to the action. It may be that this is most important with a springer where you might want to even out the pulse. I’m also a physicist of the nuclear/particle persuasion.
Pete,
I’ll jump into this again because I love thinking about science.
I don’t think Jane was touting a long transfer port as optimal but rather that length was one of the parameters to optimize. Imagine the port as a hole in an infinitely thin “force field” at one extreme and ending in a long tube at the other extreme.
To imagine what I was referring about wanting the gas molecules to flow parallel to the boreline imagine this notion. Let’s assume that all the kinetic energy of the gas molecule is directed straight down the boreline. Now when the gas molecule hits the pellet it doesn’t bounce back but instead sticks to the pellet. Now all of the kinetic energy of the gas is converted into kinetic energy of the pellet (which is growing in mass).
The above situation doesn’t happen in the real world because the gas molecules do bump into each other. So in the real world it is impossible to transfer 100% of the kinetic energy of the gas molecule to the pellet.
A simpler model of all of this is a shock tube. There is burst dist is used and the gas in the reservoir is dumped down the tube with no projectile.
Any mathematical simulation of all of this would be mind boggling. It isn’t a steady state situation and the gas flowing down the barrel likely contains pulse waves and reflections of those waves. A very messy situation.
Please, Beam Me Up Scotty! 😉 🙂 🙂
rikib
To some extent we’ve all been talking in terms of equilibrium thermodynamics about what is most certainly not a system in equilibrium or anywhere near to it. That means that much of what we’ve said is on the ragged edge of making sense.
Still, if the gas sticks to the pellet you’ve got an inelastic collision and at least 50% of the KE in the gas flow will disappear as heat. What you really want is for the gas not to stick and to recoil elastically, which maximized the amount of momentum transferred into the pellet. But I still don’t thick that the gas propels the pellet in the way that a water hose might squirt a paper cup across the lawn when you aimed into the open side of the cup.
Pete,
The gas molecules don’t stick of course so my model was meant to be a “boundary condition.” My notion of a “perfect transfer port was that it would direct the molecules perfectly down the boreline on a course parallel to the boreline. Furthermore that none of the gas molecules would collide with each other again. (doesn’t happen that way of course…)
I’ve tried to express this notion before without any real success. I think that the point is that pushing a pellet down a barrel is somewhere between two extremes. On the low extreme, you can assume that the gas molecules retain 3D motion and push the pellet via “gas pressure.” On the high end you can assume that at the time that the pellet exits the barrel that all the gas molecules are directed down the boreline at the same velocity. I think that this would provide an upper limit on the pellet velocity.
I think that for a PCP that would mean that 1.7*speed of sound would be the limit. A springer is a different situation. Jane had pointed out to me that if you used a suspension spring from a railroad car that the pellet would travel faster. That is indeed the case, but that is because the super-strong spring would heat the compressed gas. The higher the temperature of the gas, the faster the speed of sound. So the ultimate limit would depend on the temperature that you could produce. (a railroad car spring is ridiculous of course, but chosen to make the point.)
The problem with the gas molecules bouncing back is (1) they must still retain some of the kinetic energy, and (2) they bounce back into the stream of gas molecules flowing down the barrel towards the pellet.
reason (2) in particular is nasty since even if a transfer port could be designed to align the molecules perfectly down the boreline, the molecules bouncing off the pellet would “upset” that flow of gas down the barrel. In other words the flow can’t truly become 1-D. So the flow is somewhere between 1-D and 3-D.
You are of course absolutely correct that the system is never at any equilibrium condition. That makes any realistic mathematical analysis very complicated, depending on all sorts of factors that a “hobbyist” can’t measure. By the time you “estimate” a half-dozen constants any “real” mathematical analysis is impossible.
It isn’t kinetic energy that is conserved but momentum. Most of the kinetic energy is converted into heat.
Pete, the wisdom here is that straight ports are more efficient than angled ports; that’s one of the reasons given for the virtues of single shots over magazines. The single shots enable a straight transfer of air. This seems intuitive enough. As for the actual reasons, I’m guessing that they go beyond boundary conditions which I understand as the interaction of the air with the sides of the port. For the moving molecules to have their direction altered, they must be subject to a force which acting over distance will do work on the air and presumably reduce the energy it can deliver to the pellet. Is that a fair justification of straight ports over angled ports?
Matt61
Hopefully there will be no misguided “hobbyist” playing around with these theories and hurting themselves or others.
rikib
Ok, I’m back. Sans kids.
My question is what do you think would be a good pellet rifle for an 8 year old? He has saved up some cash to put toward it so I think it’s time to reward him. I have my opinion on what to get, but then again I have childhood biases (don’t we all?) and want other opinions. And keep in mind the price, about $100 is the top end for him. I have a couple rifles he can use of mine, but the 1077 trigger pull is beyond him, as he isn’t accurate anymore, and with my IZH so light it isn’t a good rifle for him until he has better finger control.
I’l look for any input anyone has later tonight. Thanks in advance!
Take a look at the Air Venturi Bronco on the Pyramyd site. It’s perfect for kids and it’s a real accurate shooter. He won’t grow out of it soon and he may even have to fight you for it after you try it!
It’s a break barrel so be sure to take time with him on the safety aspects of leverage and pinch points etc, and keeping fingers out of breeches.
The 953 is good and falls in your price range. The Bronco and the Benjamin pump rifles are little outside. However, maybe heighten the occasion and kick in the extra $25 or whatever it takes to get these higher grade rifles. I don’t know that the IZH is such a bad choice. The trigger is very good. What keeps that rifle from being more reliably accurate is its light weight, but an 8 year old would not feel that so much.
Matt61
Superlube,
all great choices – the Daisey 953, the Air Venturi Bronco and at least one parent, Cowboy Star Dad, swears by the IZH61. Here’s a link to Pyramydair’s recommendations for rifles for young adults. /action-sports/airsoft/airsoft-accessories/protective-gear
See what he likes and is in his and your price range. If he goes for a BB gun, it’s imperative he wears safety glasses due to ricochets. It’s pretty important even with pellet rifles to wear safety glasses.
Fred PRoNJ
Superlube (btw SL -NICE NAME YOU GAVE 😉 ) 8 yrs old ,well i don t have my own kids and i live i different culture but i think that you should wait with buying airgun for a little fella or at least -you buy it for yourself and then take your kid out and learn him the basic of handling airgun so firist he can watch how his dad do it and be UNDER PARENTAL CONTROL , but 8 yrs -guys you gonna hate me all but dont think that it is wright time for child to handle the air rifle -AT LEAST TWO yrs. MORE.. :/
And Superlube -i would buy BRONCO (for little bit more money)it is a kinda of rifle that i see that you will enyoj too and he will inherit the fine rifle 😉
Bronco=Slavia=great gun x 2
C-S,
I agree with you about the 8 yrs old, but my opinions don’t gather much following! 😉 🙂
rikib
As for my son being a bit young, it all depends on the kid. I know adults I wouldn’t trust with…anything. And he has proven his mettle with a borrowed low power airsoft, got 7 out of 10 inside 2 inches his first time at 15 feet! And yes I considered airsoft, but chasing plastic pellets around isn’t a thing I want to do, and the biodegradable ones don’t degrade as fast as I’d like. I’d end up picking them out of my yard anyway. And pellet traps and dinger plates are too much fun for me to keep to myself!
Superlube,
I’m going to recommend that you look at the Crosman Raven
/product/crosman-raven?m=1713
and the Hammerli 490 Express. The Hammerli is quite accurate and easy to shoot, but the trigger is hard and may present a
problem.
/product/hammerli-490-express?m=1320
If the Gamo Lady Recon were not pink I would recommend it. It has open sights and cocks easily. It is reasonably accurate.
The standard Recon doesn’t have open sights, and I don’t recommend starting a shooter with a scope.
B.B.
Superlube
I think a Daisy 953 Powerline might be just the thing for your boy. It is a single pump pneumatic rifle with great accuracy at short distances. It also falls well within your price range, so you can get extra clips or better sights.
The Bronco goes $125 so it is a little more expensive, but will be more accurate at longer ranges. It will also require more technique and concentration from your boy, since it is a spring powered gun. It is easy to cock for me. I don’t know if an 8 year old would have trouble or not. It has an automatic safety, which the 953 does not.
Both the 953 and the Bronco are excellent. I prefer the Bronco personally.
Super Lube,
Consistent with C-S’s message, be sure to check your local and state laws regarding “ownership” of the air guns. In my case (12 year old twin boys), all of the air guns are mine and they are allowed to use them with permission – even the ones I never shoot because I bought them principly for my boys to use. The boys understand this, and it is an important message on compliance with the laws.
Alan in MI
Don’t worry, this will be kept away from him in a safe place at all times unless I am with him. I don’t want the neighbor cat terrorized or “accidently” injured, windows broken, other stuff I’m sure you know. He already understands he is basicallly borrowing it from me until he is old enough and has shown me he can handle it responsibly.
And thanks everyone for the input, I like asking something like this here over poring over reviews for hours at a time. I’d rather spend that time here, I learn more!
B.B., glad the IV is out and that you’re on solid food. Hey, I beat you to the hospital. I just got out of the Emergency Room. They have been fiddling with medication for this very unusual arthritic condition in my legs and last night it all went downhill. Walking about even on crutches was excruciating. Early this morning, after getting up to go to the bathroom, I fainted. And then it took 20 minutes to crawl 20 feet back to bed. When there’s no Edith around, you are really screwed. I called 911 and the firemen came and busted through my upstairs window (right through the gun room) to get indoors, since I couldn’t open the door for them. At the ER, they gave me a high dose of Prednisone and I’m mostly recovered. That is quite the miracle drug.
Matt61
Matt,
That is a chilling tale. You’re right, you need an Edith. She has nursed me for four months and never once did she fail; to put me first.
I’m sorry to hear about your condition. It sounds bad. Prednisone isn’t a medicine to mess around with!
B.B.
BB
There aren’t enough Ediths to go around!
Matt61,
All the best to you. From what I’ve read between the lines, you are an accomplished martial artist too. Lying helpless cannot have been much fun.
Wish you a quick recovery and an accurate diagnosis so you can take preventive measures in future.
-AlanL
Matt
Dang. That sounds like a horrible experience. Sorry to hear about your arthritis.
On the plus side, I have yet another person to pray for. Get well soon.
Thanks to all for your concern. Now, the hard part. How does one get an Edith? 🙂 Yes, she did a terrific job and inspired confidence in everyone who was watching and worrying.
For the moment, Prednisone looks pretty good for picking me up so rapidly and reducing inflammation, but I know the side effects are to be avoided at all costs. It’s not the cataracts, soft bones, or even the abdominal striations that bother me. It’s the buffalo humps! It will cause you to grow humps out of your neck. I hope to get a better plan going this week. As a matter of fact, yesterday I was still able to shoot off 30 rounds at my range and was not too far off my usual standard. However, I just have to walk my corridor to the bathroom to remember. Even now, I float with ease down the corridor but the other day, squirming on the floor was like a marathon.
AlanL, yes this is quite frustrating to be cut off from my routine. However, I have been able to watch a lot of martial arts on YouTube and am particularly enjoying Tony Jaa from Ong Baak–a truly rare talent. On a more serious note, no martial artist can fail to remember Bruce Lee who injured his back seriously by lifting weights without a proper warm-up and was bedridden literally for six months with the very real prospect of being crippled for life. Going from his supreme level of activity to lying in bed would drive you right off your rocker I would think–like sensory deprivation torture. However, Bruce spent the time reflecting on his art and compiling a book of his techniques (which he never completed) called the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, and when he recovered, he was an even better martial artist.
So, how to adapt the martial arts training to my physical restrictions. What came back to me was Systema, the Russian martial art I’ve mentioned before. The basic philosophy is to be very fluid and relaxed, moving around pain and tension and using the body in creative ways. So, the method I distilled is: (1) go slowly (2) stay relaxed (thereby identifying the source of pain and tension) (3) use the body creatively (skin tension, different means of support, alternative pathways of movement) to avoid pain. It works! I’ve developed this slow, gliding method of moving around my place that eliminated most of the pain even before the medicine fully kicked in. A scene from a movie occurred to me while this was going that (adapted) said that all the punching, kicking and technique drills were not really martial arts. THIS is martial arts in the sense of creatively meeting and overcoming physical challenges. I bet a lot could be done in this way for people in nursing homes and afflicted by arthritis.
By the way, on the general subject of evaluating products that we have talked of, I’ve been investigating the reception of Systema online, and I’m astonished at what I’ve found. People claiming to be experts in martial arts with decades of experience and so on dismiss Systema as what they call “Bullshido” or a fraud. Well, I’ve studied martial arts for 20 years, 15 years of which have been fairly obsessive, and I can say that this art as taught by Vladimir Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko is highly original and uniquely excellent. And it’s very entertaining to watch.
Duskwight, hang in there. I’ve been following the course of the Russian fires. From what I read of history, if something can be endured, the Russians will do it. Just keep your facemask handy. If that were the U.S., I bet all the stores would be sold out of facemasks.
Matt61
Matt61,
Sorry to hear about your health issues. Ugh! Don’t you hate it when life goes along just great…and then, boom…you get hit by something so unexpected? While I know this will sound strange, maybe there’s something you can learn or take away from your health issues. You never know what wonderful revelations are out there just waiting for you to discover them 🙂
Edith
KA,
Did you get the scope, someone did! I hesitated too long. 🙂 But I did get a nice shoulder stock 🙂
Derrick, is this still the best in the price range scope for the 2240?
rikib
Rikib do i hear “shoulder stock”sounds to me that your pistol is more like a gun now ….come to the air rifle side ,you know that you want to 😉 🙂
C-S,
Can’t go full on into the rifle side, still love the pistols. This was a deal I could not pass up! And the 2240 with a shoulder stock looks great, feels great. 🙂
rikib
I know i am kidding man 😉
C-S,
Pistol with a shoulder stock does look nice. Once I replace the red dot with a scope it will be even better. 🙂
rikib
If you like the 2240 with a shoulder stock, I think you’ll like the Izh 60/61.
It’s not a pistol but very close to the 2240 with stock.
/product/izh-60-air-rifle?m=75
/product/izh-61-multi-shot-air-rifle?m=76
It’s so much more accurate then I ever tough it would be, very light weight, easy to cock and compact and
no more running out of CO2 😉
J-F
C-S,
A pistol with a shoulder stock is still not a rifle, therefore I have not crossed the boundary 😉
rikib
But i see that you are getting there i am patient ,patience is a virtue ,and Edith i think that blog is GREAT ,and HAPPY BIRTHDAY (or wasnt it yesterday )nevermind happy birthday ,rikib spear us waiting and buy air gun you know you want to 😉 😉 😉
C-S,
I’m pretty sure Edith’s birthday is Sunday, August 8. That is what it is here.
Air Rifles, I’ve not found one that I would consider over a pistol price wise. Everyone has their own comfort zone I guess. 🙂
rikib
Amen man !!!
rikib today would be 63 birthday of my father too 🙁
C-S,
Now your making me feel old! 🙁
rikib 🙂
C-S,
I guess I did not read that quite right the first time. Sorry, please accept my sympathy for your Dad. 🙁
rikib
Rikib man nevermind he is alive in my memories ,but you should (and i know that you do)be happy with every hour spent with your son ,grandson couse we can t know when our time is come so we should use every moment like our last and do best we can to be remembered
C-S,
It may not be manly, but you brought a tear to my eye. I lost my older brother when he was 24 and I was 21. It has torn me apart to this day. It was a fishing accident and his body has never been found. That was more than 30 years ago. I feel for you my friend. And I’ve had my Dad go through 3 heart attacks, the will of whom ever you believe in as kept him here with us.
rikib
So my friend we newer die when we have somebody to remember us ,we will still be alive in memories ….So rikib hold on and appriciate what you have -look into the future couse for you man future is so bright 🙂
C-S,
A lot of what keeps me going is the pain that the loss of my brother caused the family (although it did make us all closer), the love of my new wife of 7 years, all of our pets (dogs & cats combined 16), and a blog/community like this. I look forward to getting on here everyday! 🙂
rikib
C-S,
I rarely communicate with my son. He was only about 1.5 years old when I got divorced. I won’t go into it on here but my ex had connection I could not break, I didn’t see him again until he was 15 years old. Don’t start prying.
rikib
Rikib the last cartoon i ve seen with my father wes the “lion king” and you see the cartoon is wiser than every movie ever made -couse you will see you live in your son just like he lives in you ….
C-S,
Not quite like “The Lion King”, my son finished school and was really into music. He actually put together a business plan and got his own production label. Believe me, I’m not racist but a skinny white boy producing Hip-Hop! It lasted about a year, well he still has rights to the label. Now he is going to college for a business degree with a secondary in music engineering.
Me on the other hand was studying to become a Catholic priest. One of the Priest where I was studying suggested that I go in the military for a few years. Needless to say I did not become a priest. I got married, had children and got divorced. Buy the way that priest got booted out seems he was screwing around with some women. 🙂 🙂
rikib
C-S,
Thank you for the birthday wishes. It’s a wonderful day 🙂
Edith
It should be good /great- day you and our B.B. have made(part of ) whole world like an community …… 🙂 🙂 🙂
Rikib,
No I didn’t buy it. Have to finish a couple of projects that require more parts first. Someone got a great deal on a great little scope.
KA
Edith,
Hope I got the right day. 🙂 HAPPY BIRTHDAY 🙂
rikib
rikib,
Yes, you did. Thank you! It’s a wonderful day 🙂
Edith
Is there a difference between “Leapers” & “UTG” scopes? I found two identical scopes, same photo, same tech specs., same description, only difference was one a Leapers other was a UTG and the price was different.
rikib
rikib,
Leapers makes several different brands of scope, including Centerpoint and UTG.
B.B.
rikib
Leapers and UTG are the same. UTG stands for Under The Gun. Strange name for something that goes ON TOP of the gun.
C-S,
Been a nice talk but I need to get some sleep, it’s about 4:30 am here.
rikib
RIKIB when you cooking something you add what you have, you can t add something you dont already have, this was in you and your son so he just used it- so why not 😉 🙂
How’s it going folks? I have gone through a lot of changes recently, which may be too graphic to discuss here. I will say this though, I am in a far better place as a person now. Although I prayed against it, so God fails. But jokes aside, I’m slowly recovering, but am not mobile all the time. Translation, I’ll be able to read comments and blog entries continuously. 😛
-Ryan
Ryan
It is great to see you back buddy. We have been worried.
Life is very hard sometimes, but then it gets better. I hope you have a speedy recovery.
Ryan man glad to see you here 🙂 🙂 🙂
You too Chuck, you too 🙂
Chuck thanks you
I am confused last time i was Canada ,now i am Chuck -made up your mind man 😉
That sir is obvious slander. I called you chuck when your screen-name was Chuck, and I still call you that cause I’m assuming it’s your name. Also, it’s my name, which is why my screen-name is Ryan.
-Ryan
Ryan,
Very Happy 🙂 to see you’re back! Hope you make a full recovery soon! Best Wishes!
rikib
Ryan,
Good to see your are back! I was beginning to worry about you. Take it easy on the mend.
Les
Thank you all for your kind words. Something I almost completely lack in my life right now is human communication (unless I count talking to myself). So thank you for letting me know that there are people in this world, even ones that have never met me, that care about my well-being. I am very grateful. 🙂
-Ryan
Ryan,
It good to here from you. You’ve been on some minds here.
KA
Happy birthday Edith !
J-F,
Thank you for the birthday wishes. It’s great day!
Edith
I know it’s getting pretty late, but could not let the day pass with wishing you a happy birthday.
We all owe you a debt for keeping the blog going when Tom was down.
I’ll never forget the kind advice you gave a long time ago to “the guy with the record”.
Turned him into “the guy with the Rekord”.
God bless you.
Les
Desertdweller,
Thank you for the birthday wishes. It was a great day!
Edith
Edith
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday dear Edith!
Happy birthday to you.
OK, enough small talk. What did you get? Whatever it is, I hope it puts a smile on your face. You are most deserving.
Best Regards
Slinging Lead,
Thanks for the birthday song 🙂
When Tom had his IV removed on Friday, I felt this huge weight lifted off my shoulders. It’s a great birthday present. We expect Monday’s CT scan to indicate that he doesn’t need to go back on IV feedings and that he’s now on the road to recovery.
Tom’s not allowed to go out and shop, but I did drive him to the Hallmark store last week so he could buy me a card. He wants me to have a birthday meal at one of my favorite restaurants. Of course, he can’t accompany me, so I’m getting takeout from Outback Steakhouse: 2 lobster tails with clarified butter and an order of coconut shrimp. Mmmm, mmmm good 🙂
But, honestly, there’s no gift or meal that will give me more pleasure than having his IV removed.
Edith
Good afternoon one and all!
Happy Birthaday Edith. I bet I know what youor favorite present is–Tom home with the light at the end of the tunnel not attached to a locomotive, cause that’s the wonderful person you are.
Ryan–good to have you back.
Frank B, did you live around Cayuga Lake? Are you familiar with Plaster Point?
B.B. welcome to the world of solid food, one little bit at a time.
Mr B.
Mr B.,
Thank you for the birthday wishes!
It’s wonderful to have Tom back in the world of mastication 🙂
Life IS good.
Edith
Oops should have used spell check. youor-your and bit-bite
Mr B.
A general question to those who are keeping up with current posts to the old blogs–are you seeing any. I haven’t had any for quite awhile now. Is that function no longer available with this new format or did I inadvertently get removed from the list of folks helping to answer those questions?
Mr B.
Mr B.,
We’re still getting the comments. I know that others who were signed up to get the old blog comments are still getting them because they’re still jumping in to answer questions.
Edith
Edith,
Would you please check to see that I’m still signed up to help out.
Thanks,
Mr B.
B.B,
So… did you enjoy your ‘Prince of Wales’ omelet? 😀
-AlanL
Alan,
I don’t know what that is, so I don’t know if I had one.
B.B.
B.B.,
After you came off IV, I suggested you have that omelet for brunch today, in celebration. A ‘Prince of Wales’ omelet is with sour cream and caviar. Best accompanied by a glass of champagne. 😀
Personally, I would add fresh diced cherry tomatoes too. But then it wouldn’t be a ‘Prince of Wales’ anymore.
-AlanL
Alan,
Thanks for the explaination. I’m lactose intolerant, so no sour cream.
I’m eating what they call the BRAT diet. Bananas, rice, applesauce and toast.
B.B.
B.B.
That’s bad. I can think of some things with those ingredients that would be good, but I don’t want to torture you.
twotalon
Edith….
Happy birthday.
I would have said something sooner, but I have been out getting my shooting fix before surgery tomorrow. The doc will probably tell me nothing strenuous for a week.
Only went through half a box of old Quicksilvers with the 48. They make applesauce really good, but a few want to fall back out of the barrel due to loose fit.
twotalon
twotalon,
Thank you for your birthday wishes. 2010 has been an incredible journey for both Tom and me.
I wish you the best of luck with your medical issues. Tom and I will be praying for you!
Edith
twotalon,
I’m praying for you and your surgical team.
Mr B.
Mr B.
I am not sweating it. Sure there are risks, but there always are.
I will be glad to get rid of the thing. It does not bother me too much any more, but I am very tired of the constant fear of having the port bumped. It really hurts.
Right now I am worried about how hungry I will be before they knock me out tomorrow. Can’t eat or drink anything after midnight. Surgery at 11:45.
Seems to me that while the doc was doing a needle biopsy that every time that they asked how I was doing, I told them that I was hungry. It also felt like the doc was trying to push a broom handle through my neck.
Then for a while, nobody knew where the biopsy report was. Then they found out that they did not get enough tissue to figure out what it was. Then they removed the big one and had enough then. It darn well should have been enough.
Lots of fun and games. And expensive.
twotalon
Just got back in town and was catching up on the weekends comments. Wow! Very interesting discussions.
Great to see Jane Hansen, Herb and Victor adding so much. After reading your dialogue I’m reminded about how little education I have. Thanks. LOL!
Good to see you Mr B!
Matt61, Sorry to hear your condition took a detour. Hope you and your medical team get your body back on the right road. I don’t know the details of Jim Horner’s passing but next time I see Tooth I’ll ask.
Superlube, Sure glad you started posting. You started some interesting discussion about a new gun for your young one. Good luck in your quest.
Mrs. Gaylord, Hope you had a very Happy Birthday. Another year younger and another year wiser. May this next year bring you all the blessings and happiness you deserve.
B.B., Couldn’t be happier now that I’ve heard you’re off the IV and eating solid food (that isn’t very solid. LOL!) Hope they allow you to keep that IV out of your arm. Interesting suggestion you made about looking at the crosman raven youth gun. Sure would be nice if PA would list the LOP especially on guns, like the raven, that are targeted at younger shooters. I see the cocking effort is 25 lbs. Lot’s of kids could handle that but not all 9 year old kids arms are the same length.
For those that shoot .22 rimfire and/or use red dots I discovered a few things this weekend that I thought to pass along.
Had my new MKIII target pistol out and ran almost 800 rounds through it this weekend. Was shooting American Eagle copper coated through it since midway had this on sale for $22.00 for 400. Did very well in this pistol. You may want to try it. I have an aimpoint comp ML3 on one of my airguns. Great red dot but if it wouldn’t have come with the gun I bought used I never would have bought it. No complaints other than the price they want for these new. I bought a new Ultra Dot Match Dot for the MKIII, mounted it and shot with it this weekend. At less than half the price of the aimpoint my initial impressions of the Ultra Dot Match Dot are that it is every bit as good as the aimpoint. The battery life is less than the aimpoint and it’s not as rugged but for an airgun or a .22 rimfire it seems well worth it at this point.
kevin
Kevin,
Thank you for your birthday wishes. It’s been an awesome weekend! I’m so grateful for everything that’s been going on in our lives. What a journey!
Edith
twotalon,
Hang in there buddy. We’re pulling for ya.
kevin
Thanks kevin.
This is chicken feed compared to what Tom and I have faced in the last year.
Different things, but both potentially lethal.
No way to describe what it has been like.
Will be back tomorrow afternoon. The old sarge is hard to kill.
twotalon
twotalon,
Tonight you get a special prayer from me. I go in for a CAT scan in the morning, preceded by three Barium cocktails.
B.B.
Happy birthday, Edith.
Matt61
Matt61,
Thank you for your birthday wishes. It’s been a great one. I’m 62!
Edith
Kevin, no wonder you were away shooting 800 rounds in a weekend. Sounds like the Mk III is a great pistol. I’ll be more open to the bargains in .22 rimfire ammo. The details about Jim Horner will be appreciated whenever you have time.
Matt61
Matt61,
Almost 800 rounds. I think 760 since we came back with one box that was overlooked. Bought a speedloader for the ruger magazines and have 10 magazines. Takes about 10 seconds to load a magazine. We shot paper long enough to dial in the red dot and shoot some groups. Boring. Lot of unbroken, half broken clay targets from the shotgunners that shoot at this range so we broke their clays. Shot some cans. We also brought some old soft balls. Wanna have some fun? Get a few of your buddies with pistols, throw a softball downrange and compete for walking that ball. There were four of us shooting pistols at that ball and you had to be quick. Great time.
I’ll keep you posted on what I can find out about Jim Horner.
kevin
You know what guys there comes the time in life when man needs to get independent from two country in his name and embrace his own name like….well his own 🙂 😉 or just to see his name on desktop 😉
Still the same C-S with poor sense of grammar
I’m surprised that you eschew an air rifle which could shoot a .22lr sized boat-tailed spitzer, saying that it puts it into the realm of the .22lr and, therefore, makes it much more dangerous. But, then, you espouse “big bore” rifles which shoot, essentially, black powder bullets at modest velocities, implying that they are, somehow, safer. In reality, getting whacked at close range with a big bore lead slug doing 500 fps will do just as much damage, if not more, than the spitzer clocking 1000. Like muzzle loaders, the big bores make up in mass for what they lack in speed. And giving your .17 rimfire and Hornet the respect you grant other firearms sends a message to novice air gunners that the diablo shooting rifle demands less. Ironically, that is the chief problem with the .22lr. Many consider it to be the deadliest round ever invented, since many wounded by it are in no rush to receive emergency medical treatment, it being “only a .22”. A less safety-conscious view of the air rifle might lead to the same result. Even a .177 wadcutter hitting soft tissue at 900 fps will do serious damage, especially if the wound is abdominal. No different from a .22lr. All guns should be handled with equal care.