Beeman P1/HW 45 air pistol: Part 3

by B.B. Pelletier

Announcement: Here’s this week’s winner of Pyramyd Air’s Big Shot of the Week on their facebook page. He’ll receive a $50 gift card.


A departure from the usual camo-wearing players we see in airsoft skirmishes, Joey Demonti is wearing a suit and overcoat. I don’t know which scenario he’s playing out, but the Thompson should take care of it. Wonder where he put his violin case?

Part 1
Part 2


The Beeman P1 sits in the top tier of air pistols for power and quality.

Today’s report is a special one, requested by several readers who want to learn how to hold their Beeman P1s for best accuracy. I wrote about this originally in the January 1996 issue of The Airgun Letter.

It started with the 1911
Like most of you, I grew up thinking the Colt 1911 semiautomatic pistol (and its many variants) was a hard-kicking, inaccurate sidearm. I was very familiar with wheelguns in the early 1970s, but not so much with pistols. I even owned two 1911s by the time I went into the Army as a second lieutenant in 1970, but neither of them had changed my opinion of the gun or the cartridge. The funny thing was that I was reloading and shooting Colt Single Action Army revolvers with the much harder-recoilling .45 Colt cartridge that I loaded to Elmer Keith’s specifications, so I wasn’t recoil-shy. But something about the old slabsided pistol turned me off.

As a young officer in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, it fell to me quite often to run firing ranges for annual qualification and familiarization. In the cavalry, we had more weapons than typical soldiers, so not only did we have to qualify with the M-16 and the .45 if we carried them (which I did), but we also had to shoot a plethora of machine guns and the M3A1 submachine gun. Cavalry units don’t have just one kind of machine gun. We had four — five if you count the 20mm automatic cannon we had on the M114A1E1 scout vehicle. And there are 40mm grenade ranges, demolition ranges, mortar ranges, etc. In short, it was the best of times for a gun-lover like me.

One day I was running the squadron qualification range for the 1911A1 pistol. Out of a thousand men, perhaps 400 were armed with the pistol and had to qualify, so it was a long two days on the range for me and my non-commissioned officers (NCOs) who are all sergeants of one level or another. We had shooters lined up 20-25 at one time with one safety NCO to every four shooters and then several other safety personnel behind them, all the way back to me and my bullhorn.

Hour after hour, I watched men shoot the pistol, sometimes kicking up dirt 10 feet in front of them as they flinched in anticipation of the discharge. The safety and operations personnel could never relax because all one shooter had to do was turn around with a cocked and loaded pistol in his hand and there was trouble. To say all of us were focused is an understatement.

Then, the brand new Squadron Commander, Lieutenant Colonel Edward Bonsall, arrived at the range in his jeep. I had never seen a lieutenant colonel at a small arms range before. I’m sure they went, just never when I was running the range. The colonel introduced himself, because I hadn’t met him yet –he was that new. Then, he asked to qualify. Well, sure he could qualify. It was his range, when you got down to it!

I directed him to a table upon which we had about 50 pistols waiting for the next shooters. You’re supposed to qualify with your own weapon, but to keep the range moving we had 50 pistols that the entire squadron used. That way there weren’t a lot of malfunctions. After weeding out the bad magazines in the first few relays, we had the range running smoothly. It was also much easier to clean only 50 pistols instead of 400.

Colonel Bonsall selected a weapon and took his place on the line with another 24 shooters. The shooting commenced and that’s when I lost track of him until my chief NCO came up and discretely asked me if I had noticed the colonel’s target. We were shooting at man-sized silhouettes at 25 yards. Each man got a fresh target when his relay began and the course of fire was 50 shots at the silhouette. We called it qualification but it was really more like annual refresher training. Most of the silhouettes looked as though they had been peppered by a shotgun firing huge balls. But the colonel’s target had a small hole right where the heart should be. He had fired about 30 rounds through a one-inch hole when I caught up with him, and the rest of his shots didn’t stray far from it.

The upshot of that day at the range was that our new commander wore the Army Distinguished Pistol Shot badge, a qualification badge so rare that not only had I never seen one, I had never even heard of it! And I was a gun buff serving in the Army! As of 2006, there were 1,689 Distinguished Pistol Shot badges awarded since its inception in 1903, making the badge rarer than the Army Medal of Honor that has been awarded over 2,000 times, though admittedly over a 40-year longer span of time.


The U.S. Army Distinguished Pistol Shot badge is a rare shooting distinction.

After we cleared the colonel off the range, I examined the pistol the he’d used for his demonstration. It was a typical loose-as-a-goose arms room M1911A1 with green phosphate finish and brown plastic grips. It had probably been made around or just before World War II, and the only special care we gave it was to bring it to the range in the bed of a 2-1/2-ton truck inside a wooden footlocker with 49 others just like it. When it wasn’t being shot, it laid on a table in the hot sun while dust blew over it and through it all day long. By the time the colonel got his hands on it, it had probably already been fired several hundred times without cleaning or lubrication. The parts inside were just good enough to avoid condemnation during a major inspection.

That was the day when Elmer Keith’s last printed lie turned out to be true — you really CAN hit a man at 100 yards with a 1911 pistol. Repeatedly! But you have to know what you’re doing. Anyway, the colonel got my attention. Being a kindred gun buff, he taught me how to shoot the pistol. Now, I’ll pass on to you what I learned from him.

It’s all in the hold and the trigger action
How you hold the 1911 or the 1911A1 determines how tight it will shoot. Yes, the gun can be gunsmithed to shoot even tighter, but even a tired old clacker will surprise you if you hold it right. The Beeman P1 has the same grip frame and responds to the same hold in the same way.

You must always grip the pistol the same way every time you hold it. Hold the palm of your shooting hand flat with the thumb extended and place the pistol into the web of your hand. The three fingers that aren’t the trigger finger should be wrapped around the grips, and the thumb comes in on the other side of the grip, Now — and this is the key — you squeeze the pistol straight back into the web of your hand with the middle finger, which is the highest of the three fingers wrapped around the grip. The other two fingers apply absolutely no pressure on the gun. They’re just along for the ride. The thumb also puts no pressure on the gun. Only that middle finger squeezing straight back.


This graphic is copied directly from the January 1996 edition of “The Airgun Letter.” It illustrates the correct hold.

The other aspect of this hold is that the trigger finger presses straight back until the gun fires. Use the pad on the end of the finger for this, not the crease under the knuckle or any other part of the trigger finger. The object is to exert as little sideways influence as possible, so the gun always recoils in exactly the same way. Once you learn to shoot like this you will always be able to outshoot those who use a two-hand hold. They can move the gun faster from one target to another, but you have precision on your side.

Recoil
A lot has been written about the P1′s recoil simulating that of a firearm. In my opinion, it doesn’t do that at all. The P1′s recoil is quicker than that of a .22 rimfire, and it’s nothing like the recoil of the .45 ACP. It does move when it fires, though, and that’s what this special grip is designed to counteract. Think of it as the artillery hold for pistols.

One last update
I took out my 1996 newsletter for this report and I read what I had said back then. Everything is still true today. I didn’t bother mentioning in the newsletter where I’d learned how to shoot this way, but I thought it was appropriate to do so here because I know you guys better than I knew my newsletter subscribers. You know my weaknesses and have come to understand that I’m not a special shot. What I do well, I do because others who were far better taught me how.

In reading that article, I saw that after a 500-shot break-in period, the pistol was shooting RWS Hobby pellets at an average of 593 f.p.s. As I’d mentioned in Part 2 of this report, my lube tune did slow down the gun quite a bit.

124 Responses to “Beeman P1/HW 45 air pistol: Part 3”

  • pete zimmerman Says:

    This grip seems very interesting, and likely to help develop the critical skill of pulling straight back. Absolutely straight back because the torque couple you could have if you slipped might knock the gun out of your hand. What you think about trying exactly that grip with an International style pellet gun?

    –pete

  • kevin Says:

    B.B.,

    What a wonderful story. This provides some insight into the roots of your focus on pistol shooting.

    64 is too young. Most of my friends are older than me and I’m tired of funerals.

    I’ve anxiously awaited this tutorial on shooting a P1/1911. Very informative. I’m still undecided about a 1911 model. Took your statement to heart about the CQB and even started researching and shopping. Had no idea that a wilson combat CQB commanded that kind of money and admiration among 1911 aficionado’s. You certainly know your way around 1911′s.

    Everyone,

    I need advice. I’ve never owned and have very little knowledge about laser sights. B.B. did a review of the air force laser sight and I liked the ease of adjustability. The reviews on the PA site have put me off.

    I have a friend that is struggling with a scope. His eyesight is poor. He shoots pests at a given distance every time (20 yards) in bright daylight mostly. Laser seems logical. His mount is weaver/picatinney. Please give me some suggestions.

    kevin

    • twotalon Says:

      kev

      Bright daylight might make seeing a laser pretty tough. I would think that only the most powerful would be a possibility.
      I have only tried one kind of laser so far and found that the adjustments were very touchy and it was a royal sob when attempting to zero. I would suspect that temperature changes would drift it all over the place.

      Perhaps a red dot would be better if it is not installed on a springer.

      By the way, I found most of a blue tin of exact lites in one of my pellet stashes. They fall into the breech of the R7. I have 4 different kinds of pellets on order from PA. All three kinds of AA, and the exact RS. One tin of each. Looking at 4.51 and 4.52 sizes.

      twotalon

      • kevin Says:

        twotalon,

        Would a green laser be better? A red dot could be an option since it’s going on a CO2/HPA carbine but I’m not interested in spending a fortune. I have an aimpoint and a ultra dot match dot that work very well. I’ve read less than glowing reports about the cheaper red dots.

        Is your R7 one of the newer versions? I’m surprised that the jsb express pellets are so loose. Have you tried seating the pellets? Is there a point when you seat them deeper that they click into place?

        kevin

        • twotalon Says:

          Don’t know about green lasers. Someone who has experience with the best daytime lasers would have to help out with this one.

          This R7 is a new one. Seating the jsb lites is out of the question. The heads fall into the rifling. The skirts are the only thing that keeps them from falling through the bore. Maybe it was a batch of unusually small pellets. The bore is looser than with the R9 and 97K.
          My selection of test pellets is taking the long way around. I usually get them the day after they were shipped. Ordered and shipped on the fourth. Expected delivery date the 9th. Why the heck they were sent to Grove City beats me. They usually go to Shelby then here.

          twotalon

        • twotalon Says:

          Another goody…
          The cheap 4-12 Bushy scope that came with it is easy to adjust compared to most for zoom and AO, but the AO is squirrel bait. It thinks that 25yds is 50 yds.
          I got a paper tape label maker from Walrus World that prints in several sizes for marking AO scopes with. I will need to use that to renumber the AO then cover with tape to preserve the writing. Just one more thing to do.

          twotalon

    • duskwight Says:

      Kevin

      From what I’ve read, most easily seen target pointer is green. Our eyes are most sensitive to mid-range wavelengths, so it should be green.
      Maybe he should look here http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com

      duskwight

    • Mr B. Says:

      Kevin,

      I’ve been shooting a green laser on my Talon SS with good results. I have two, one 20mV purchased on the web and one 5mV from another vender. Both work, but the 20mV is much better in full sun light, too bad it’s no longer legal to purchase in our country. However, the 5mV is 100% better than the red one I was using.

      I just went and shot at 3 white stick on circles that are 1/2 inch in diameter, one in full sun another in partial shade and the third in complete shade, at 16 yards. Both lasers were effective on all three. However, I wouldn’t call it a precision sighting device–more like minute of a quarter at that range.

      Hope this shines a light on your question,

      Bruce

      • Gene Says:

        I have the BSA laser on my 1377 carbine. It is hard to zero but I really like it. It may not do well in bright day light, I have never tried. This is also the only laser I have owned.

        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/BSA_Laser_Sight_With_MTS/288

      • kevin Says:

        Bruce,

        This is very interesting. Thanks. I need it to be able to hit a fifty cent piece at 20 yards. It sounds like yours can do this. Are the zeroing adjustments fairly easy? I’m off to my place in the mountains. Get to shoot some of my new to me rimfires that I haven’t even shot yet. Been looking forward to this.

        kevin

        • Mr B. Says:

          kevin,

          A half dollar at 20 yards is a piece of cake. I’ve got a scope on the Talon SS and all I do is center the green dot on the cross hairs. Without a scope I’d shoot the gun and then move the dot to cover the pellet hole without moving the rifle.

          Both my green lasers have knobs for windage and elevation adjustments. The cheap red one used an allen key which was a real pain in the butt to use.

          Bruce

          PS enjoy the mountains and shooting your .22 rim fires

  • duskwight Says:

    B.B.

    Seems like same troubles require same solutions. I was taught the same method for shooting pistol, it’s called “soft hand” and is used for target shooting.
    For rifles I came through experiments to what I call “katana grip” – relaxed, soft force just like holding raw egg, directing power into pinkie and ring finger, using middle finger to rest the rifle, index for slow and smooth pressure and thumb just touches the rifle. It works well both with necked and pistol stocks.
    Another dirty trick taught to me is relaxing one’s elbow muscles. Not full relaxation, not coiling them like springs, but a sort of state of alertness. It’s quite hard, as most people strain them instinctively more than needed to counter rifle’s weight.

    On trigger technique I’ve read in a book on sniper’s art that correct press is achieved when putting the pulp of your index finger onto trigger where you feel most surface and imagining some force pressing onto your index finger’s nail, not using “your own” muscles to do it. I trained using this techique and it works just fine.

    duskwight

    • Robert from Arcade Says:

      Duskwight:
      Your comments on shooting and technique are like the advice I got from the old guys by whom I learned about electrical and plumbing trades from. They would always say ,make things comfortable, referring to completing a quality installation. The white knuckle, big hammer approach to any skill is a myth, and reserved only for desperate emergency, and fools. Regards ,Robert.

  • Chuck Says:

    BB,
    You really put me onto something here. I tried your grip recommendation on my IZH-46M. It sounds so unnatural to depend on one finger to hold such a pistol with its unusual grip steady but it appears to be working. I have only tried a dozen shots that way, so far, but I see positive results already. My first three shots were wild, in the 3, 4 and 5 ring but the remaining were one 7 ring, four 8 rings,four 9 rings, but no 10s. The final 8 shots were consistently 8 or better. Maybe beginner’s luck that this seems to be working but actually appears to be a steadier sight picture with less lateral movement. The way the 46′s trigger is canted to the right for right handers it’s difficult for me, a lefty, to pull it straight back without pushing it to the right. I’m anxious to try this on my .22 rimfire, now.
    -Chuck

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Chuck,

      After 40 years I find that I still have to think about this grip every time I hold a pistol, so it must be pretty unnatural for everybody. But I can assure you that it does work with 10 meter guns, because I was on the cusp of shooting Expert in NRA national competition when I quit competing.

      B.B.

      • Victor Says:

        Absolutely! That’s why you have to practice a lot to be good. There’s no secret to success in shooting really well. You have to master the basics through practice, and then practice a whole lot more on refinement.

    • flobert Says:

      I’m a lefty and my hands are SMALL.

      I never noticed any problem with a 1911 trigger.

    • Chuck Says:

      wulfraed,

      Here’s a front view of my IZH-46M trigger. You can see how canted it is. Is yours this extreme?

      https://picasaweb.google.com/cjrley/IZH46MTrigger?authkey=Gv1sRgCIGT8tPWvfizoAE#5603978027577546914

      -Chuck

      • Wulfraed Says:

        I sure don’t have any mental impression of it being off like that…

        Just sent an email to my home address to remind me to pull it out of the closet tonight and take a look. (For some odd reason, this forum won’t load on my home computer — something in my flaky DSL/adapter seems to block some sites; they connect, but no data transfers after the initial request)

      • Wulfraed Says:

        Well, mea culpa…

        It /is/ canted… No idea how I did not notice that while fighting with the positioning screw to slide the blade all the way back (and it’s still to far forward unless I do some more rasping of the grip).

        Wonder how difficult it would be to machine a trigger blade that extends the other way out of something like aluminum stock. The profile is probably easy, but the staggered (at least from quick view) dovetail slot may be difficult.

        • Chuck Says:

          wulfraed,
          Machining a trigger is waaaay beyond my talents. A left hand slant would be nice but I’d settle for a just a straight-down trigger. I have a tendency to push the pistol to the right because I can’t get a good straight back pull.
          -Chuck

          • Wulfraed Says:

            Since there are no engagement surfaces that would need heat treating, a blade could be made from, as mentioned, aluminum. The profile could be traced and a slow Dremel could probably grind a rough for hand finishing…

            But, again, cutting the slit and dovetail, and tapping for the tension screw — that is much more difficult (and my need an inlet nut to avoid stripping the aluminum with the tension)

            I’ll be getting back to the rasping of my grips maybe in two weeks. This weekend is shot by having to prepare (ie; shove 10+ plastic storage boxes in to the Cherokee) for a follow up inspection by the apartment manager — I still have no idea what “furniture blocking access to exits” refers to… the tower fan in a spot that has held a fan for 20 years, the paper shredder positioned against a wall that has over four feet clear space, the swivel rocker in the middle of the living room?

  • Jim in KS Says:

    Voice of experience…

    I hear you.

    - Jim in KS

  • Vince Says:

    BB, as a 1911 trainer, how do you think the P1 compare to a 1911 with a .22 LR conversion kit?

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Vince,

      I’ve never owned or even shot a 1911 .22 conversion gun, so my opinion is probably wrong. I would think the .22 would feel more like the real firearm, but the P1 would be more accurate and give you lots more opportunity to shoot. And there are some conversions, like the Ceiner, where if you pay the money, can be very accurate.

      B.B.

      • Robert from Arcade Says:

        Vince: I have used the Ceiner unit on a standard sized 1911 pistol and I think it is more useful than an airgun for a trainer for a personal firearm. That is because in my opinion, you get to use the same trigger ,and frame . Just the slide is different and the wt is less. The Ceiner unit I have experience with was mounted on a parts gun using military guts ,barrel, and slide. The frame was a commercial replacement. The accuracy was about 3″ for ten shots at best at 25 yards, which is as good as or better that what the gun was capable of in my hands with the .45 barrel on. What BB says is correct . The airgun is a better value as to learning how to shoot a pistol, is more accurate, cheaper to shoot, and can be shot indoors at home. The conversion unit is better for learning the feel of your personal weapon, and is a lot of fun too.

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Robert,

          I have debated getting a Ceiner conversion kit for one of my 1911s for many years. Some folks say to just build the gun and leave it that way, while the popular view is what you said, just swap in the conversion when you want to.

          Obviously a tighter frame and fitted slide would give better results, but now that I own that old 1911 I showed the other day I’m wondering if just a plain conversion kit that can be swapped in and out again is the better way to go.

          Lord knows I don’t shoot .22 pistols that much.

          B.B.

          • Robert from Arcade Says:

            BB:
            The one I used was good as far as malfunctions go, and it was the standard fixed sight version of the Ceiner for full sized 1911′s. We did have a problem with both the magazines though. They would not seat in the frame and lock in place. A little filing for clearance on the locking slot of the mags took care of that. BTW,The frame was an Essex frame. I don’t have it anymore ,but have also thought of getting another conversion unit for my current carry gun. If a guy just wanted to have accuracy, and didn’t have a .22, I would say buy a another gun in .22 like Ruger’s .22/45 version. The better conversion units cost the same or more, as a good .22 pistol. I recently saw a very cool ,full sized .22 version of the 1911 that was made in Germany that was recently introduced. It had an alloy frame and slide,adjustable sights, and checkered wood grips. I went back with the intention of buying it but it was gone. It was a dedicated .22 platform and retailed for less that $400 . I will see if I can get the brand name and post it if I do.

      • pcp4me Says:

        BB,

        I own two .22 lr conversions for the 1911, A Kimber and a Ceiner. Both were reasonably accurate. But from a Ransom rest the .45 original would out shoot both. The Ceiner did about 1/2 inch better groups than the Kimber. Ransom Rested at 25 yards neither could do under 3″ groups.

        Why? Because the gun was a custom job based on an already great Springfield Armory Trophy Match, It comes from the factory pretty much tricked out with all the competition needs and Ransom rested 2.5″ groups at 25 yards! Then I took it to a really great local gunsmith to completely accurize.

        The slide was hand fitted to the gun. A new match bushing was installed and hand fitted. A “match grade” link was installed and hand fitted. The front sights were replaced with ones that were easier to pick up and much sharper and fit the rear sight better. (less gap) I asked for a 2.5 # trigger pull. He gave me a 3 3/4 # trigger pull and said that was absolutely the LOWEST he would go for fear of liability.

        When he finished there was NO preceptable play in the action. Yet the gun fired smooth as butter and never malfunctioned. Being strictly a match gun, I cleaned it as often as possible and would not have carried it to battle in the field. When he finished his magic the gun would ransom rest 1.5″ groups at 25 yards.

        Now for those of you going whoa no way, learn what a ransom rest is. It is a VERY expensive (like $500 30 years ago) piece of equipment designed to fire a gun and return it exactly to the same point each time. It is bolted to a concrete stand (in this case 3″ thick top with 14″ round pier anchored about 3.5′ into the ground. It had a remote trigger pull and was basically designed to eliminate any shooter error. You were testing the REAL accuracy with the gun clamped into a “vice” which was designed to give a similar motion to the gun in recoil like you would if you held and fired it correctly. And it tested only pistols and even then not most of the “sub compacts”. An insert to hold the gun had to be custom machined and made for each particular model you wanted to test. The inserts were designed to grip the gun absolutely immovable with out damaging the finish.

        So the .45 slide and barrel and link and bushing on that gun fitted much tighter than the .22 ones did and was more accurate from a machine rest.

        Compared to a P1 the recoil was more like a .45, but no .22 lr will ever “recoil like a .45″ unless some modification is made to something to make it so.

        The P1′s recoil was much more daunting to me to master. So no I never could match the accuracy of my .22 conversion kits on that .45 frame and the ransom rest and gun was already long gone before I got into air guns avidly and got the P!. But then again who knows? I still wonder to this day what a P1 would do in a ransom rest? And since the P1 uses .45 acp grips, the ransom grips would fit it!!

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          pcp4me,

          Thanks for that report. Whenever I read the Ceiner ads of course they show a 10-shot group at 50 yards that’s under an inch. I understand that is their top accuracy model, but I also wondered what the real-world conversions did. Testing in a Ransom Rest is about as good as it gets, so I’ll accept that.

          Thanks,

          B.B.

  • lloyd Says:

    B.B.,
    Great blog and great story about learning this pistol hold. I really enjoy that sort of background information. Your range days with all those different weapons sounds like a job where ocassionally you might tell yourself, “Wow, I am getting paid to do this!”
    Lloyd

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Lloyd,

      Yes, there were great days, but there were others where I pulled 24 hours duty after a full day’s work and then went back to another full day’s work after that with no sleep in between. And there were alerts in Germany where we had to roll out the back gate two hours after the alarm was given and would remain in the field for three days to a couple weeks.

      However, even then there was the opportunity for fun. I remember getting breakfast at 5 a.m. in a small German bakery in a village where there were no other troops. I remember hunting roe deer while on maneuvers with a cased Drilling I took in my jeep. I remember hearing a cuckoo bird for the first time at 4 a.m. after staying awake all night to protect the perimeter of my Mortar Platoon while in the middle of our annual test. What I’m saying is that after becoming completely exhausted, even the small joy of hearing a strange bird call can give you great pleasure.

      So I guess it was the best of times and the worst of times, all in one.

      B.B.

      • pete z Says:

        And we’re all very lucky that during those tense days the armor on the other side didn’t come crashing through the Fulda Gap. BB, thanks for being on the line when I was just writing theoretical papers about anti-tank weapons and tactics!

        pete

      • Lloyd Says:

        B.B.,
        That is so true about finding the little bits of joy that are so easily overshadowed by the difficulties of the moment. I remember someone telling me one time after I had finished a particularly negative monologue, “OK, you’ve give me the laundry list of bad things, now I want you to tell me 3 good memories from that same situation.” That one comment has served me well, many, many times.
        Thanks for sharing those thoughts with us.
        Lloyd

      • Slinging Lead Says:

        And then there were the times men would rather sleep outside in the snow then try and sleep indoors with your snoring.

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          SL,

          Since I have lost 100 lbs. Edith says I no longer snore.

          B.B.

          • Edith Gaylord Says:

            It’s a nice benefit of your weight loss…but I wouldn’t recommend that method of weight loss to anyone no matter how bad the snoring may be :-)

            Edith

  • pcp4me Says:

    BB,

    Your story about Lieutenant Colonel Edward Bonsall is certainly inspiring and dead on to a point. “if you wanna be the best, you gotta learn from the best.” I see all the time it is quoted “If you wanna be the best you gotta beat the best” But HOW can you beat the best unless you learn what the best do?

    All through out my competition career I always gravitated to those better than me and picked their brains. And the nice thing was those people were pretty willing to help me. You really have to humble your self to admit some one is better than you, but if you approach them with a “know it all” attitude you won’t get much help from them.

    I have had so much fun through the years shooting and hunting and I am certainly grateful to each and every one of you who helped me be better at it!!

    • Victor Says:

      pcp4me,

      I also like to gravitate towards those who are better than me. Most of the best were fairly quiet, but when they spoke, people listened. I find it hard to imagine someone who thinks they know it all. I was still digesting what I was trying to learn, at the time that I competed, decades later. DECADES LATER!!!

      There’s a big difference between “having knowledge of”, and knowing something from experience. Even when you’ve “mastered” something, you’re still digesting a lot of the theory learned from elsewhere (i.e., not personally experienced). On the other hand, much of the most valuable information that you learn, you learn from yourself. But we leverage the knowledge of others so that we don’t completely re-invent the wheel.

      Victor

      • Desertdweller Says:

        Absolutely!

        No one learns much if they approach learning experiences with a “know it all” attitude. And when you do learn skills from others, don’t feel you are too good to share them with others.

        You also don’t learn all that much by competing against others who are only a little better than yourself.
        That might leave you more skilled than your peers at most. Every competitive activity I can think of has levels of increasing difficulty. One needs to compete in events higher than one’s regular level of competition as much as possible. That is how you learn. If you become complacent at beating the locals, that is as far as you will ever advance.

        Les

  • pcp4me Says:

    BB,

    Been out of action for couple of weeks. Step daughter flew in from California with one of the grand kids and they both had horrible flu/cold symptoms. They flew out of a damaged Lambert St. Louis air port Easter Sunday morning leaving me with a bad case of the flu. To escalate matters I stepped on a gum ball outside good Friday and my leg got worse and worse till now I can hardly walk.

    Been to the Dr. 2 X for this stuff and going back this afternoon!

    So I need all the prayers any one can give me! Thanks!

  • Fred PRoNJ Says:

    BB, when I get home tomorrow night, the IZH46M is coming out of the cabinet and your hold is going to be put to the test! This is a very illuminating Blog.

    Fred PRoNJ

  • Fred PRoNJ Says:

    One last thing – I posted the other night but just in case the guy who may have some advice missed it, Let me repost again. Anyone have any knowledge or experience with a Krico .22? I understand these German, bolt action rifles have a Lothar-Walther barrel and may have been built by Anchultz?

    Thanks.

    Fred PRoNJ

  • duskwight Says:

    B.B.

    I know you are an experienced revolver shooter.
    From time to time I visit S&W site to see for some forms to inspire me, maube I’ve got a soft spot for S&W revolvers. And I see there some monster guns like XVR or other stuff in .460 or even more powerful caliber. Seeing them I’ve got some questions:
    1) Of course there are different types of recoil compensators and stabilisers on them, but if you happened to try one – is it manageable? It seems to me that muzzle blast and sound must be like 12 gauge with bad powder. How is it from hitting a target point of view?
    2) Do they have any practical use except “look what I’ve got” and maybe support weapon for big game hunters?

    duskwight

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      duskwight,

      The most powerful revolver I have shot is the Taurus Raging Bull in .454 Casull. My buddy Mac owns it and he always wears a leather glove when he fires the gun.

      Six rounds were enough to convince me that it was too much gun for me to handle. And the muzzle blast is more than a 12 gauge. It’s on its way to being a tank muzzle blast. However, the recoil is very strange. It doesn’t jump up like a .44 Magnum, yet the recoil is MUCH stiffer. And by stiffer I mean that it hurts the web of my hand with a very sharp thump.

      However I have toyed with the thought of getting a .45-70 revolver, because they are so big and heavy and the cartridge recoils so little in comparison to the modern magnum handgun rounds that it might actually be pleasant.

      As far as practical use goes, I supposed the people who can handle those big handguns can also find reasons to need them. Like hunting or as backup shots for game. I think I need to stick to a rifle when the cartridge gets into that power range.

      B.B.

      • duskwight Says:

        B.B.

        By hunting you mean using this revolver as a primary weapon? So there must be some stalking to cut the distance, as I don’t think recoil will allow a good placement of shots in long-range shooting.
        I remember (correct me if I’m wrong) that there are some ares in US, where hunting with a long gun is prohibited (Iif you don’t mind – can you tell me the reason why?). So is it OK to hunt with this kind of handguns such areas?

        duskwight

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          duskwight,

          Yes,there are many people hunting around the world with handguns these days. Even elephants have been taken this way.

          But in those areas where a rifle isn’t permitted, a handgun wouldn’t be, either. They would be designated for shotguns only, because of the close proximity of people. A rifled slug from a shotgun only travels 800 yards at the maximum, so it is much safer in built-up areas. Some of our eastern states that have a lot of people permit shotguns only for deer hunting.

          B.B.

          • twotalon Says:

            B.B.
            In my state, handguns are permitted for deer if they are of certain caliber. Cartridge type rifles are not permitted, but muzzleloaders and shotguns are.
            For small game you can use almost anything you want.(excluding waterfowl and other game birds)
            Hard to make sense of why you could use a .300 mag on chucks and coyotes (even squirrel) but not deer. Maybe because deer hunters tend to get nuts.

            twotalon

  • Mike Says:

    Nice picture of Joey and his airsoft Thompson. Also, a Thompson won’t fit in a violin case. It’s too big. You need to use a viola case which is larger. Most people will call it a violin case since it looks the same only it’s larger. That’s my bit of gun trivia for the day.

    Mike

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Mike,

      Did you know that Kahr (I think) sold a “violin” case just for the Thompson 1927A1, which is the semiauto version they made?

      B.B.

      • Mike Says:

        Yes but the size is really for a viola. My daughter is currently in a Masters program for violin. Her two best friends play the viola. While I don’t have a Thompson, a friend did for a long time. They sure are fun to shoot. We always shot cast bullets in it, they worked great. He finally sold it when the value went out of sight. It was a 1927 Navy over stamp, very, very nice.

        Mike

    • pcp4me Says:

      Mike,

      Lol he did NOT need a violin case. It would easily fit under that coat!

    • Slinging Lead Says:

      Volvo

      Thanks for the link. It was fascinating to know how the second best spring air rifles in the world are constructed.

      Your #1 fan,

      Slinging Lead

      • Volvo Says:

        I think I read a few posts with you singing the praises of an R7?

        Now I just need you to spend more than $40.00 on your scopes and I will drop your Volvo fan club membership in the mail.

    • Chuck Says:

      Vovlo,
      Thanks for sharing that video. It is very interesting, educational, and entertaining, plus, now, I know how to pronounce Weihrauch.
      -Chuck

  • Anonymous Says:

    Sorry, but I don’t believe 1″ at 25 yds offhand. Makes for a nice story, but there’s a bit too much poetic license here.

    • flobert Says:

      I’ve seen what one would call “a ragged hole”. I’ve not met this Bonsall guy but …. I’d accept a 2″by2″ hole with the odd flyer an inch out here and there. I’ve seen that. To make the “farty five” less accurate you’d have to intentionally design it to scatter. That’s the nice thing with pistols. You can’t blame the gun.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      You didn’t read everything I wrote, did you?

      Re-read it and you will see that I said the hole was one inch when I started watching the Colonel. I didn’t say the final 50-shot group was one inch. I said it was that size when I caught up to him and the last 20 rounds didn’t stray far from it.

      A two-inch group would have looked like that to anyone who saw it that day.

      I didn’t measure his group with calipers, so the actual size of the group was not what I was reporting.

      When I give you a group that has been measured, the size will be in thousandths of an inch. Do you believe that number? You shouldn’t, because it’s easy to be off by twenty thousandths of an inch when measuring with a dial caliper. But when the number is in print it looks so official, because there are three places to the right of the decimal. But it’s only a number and no one should believe that it is the actual size of the group. It is simply the best and closest ESTIMATE of the group’s size that a person can make. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise doesn’t understand how this works.

      Only a sound-scored target can be measured as accurate as the nearest thousandth of an inch. Measuring with calipers or micrometers has always had a margin of error.

      And when the group isn’t measured at all, but simply mentioned in print like this one was, it is only a relative thing.

      B.B.

      • Lloyd Says:

        B.B.,
        So true about a number looking “official”. Unless there are a string of disclaimers, i.e., “looked to me..,approx..,from what I remember.., my yard stick wasn’t calibrated…,definitely maybe…, but I could be wrong…,” as soon as it goes into print its open to close scrutiny. Even with the disclaimers, its open to scrutiny. Oh well…. I could be mistaken, though. LOL
        Lloyd

    • Victor Says:

      I read the article, and I didn’t see anyone make a hard claim of “1″ at 25 yds”, in absolute terms, and for all 50 shots. From what I read, the group was centered around a 1″ hole. A Master, or Distinguished Pistol Shot, level marksman will do this well (i.e., produce nicely centered groups).

      Victor

  • Anonymous Says:

    addendum; 30x in 1″ @25yds, nah…

    • pcp4me Says:

      Come on man! BB did NOT say the hole was 1″ after 50 shots, he said it was one inch when he saw it and also that he never measured it, and at 25 yards a 2″ hole would look about the same as one inch. Without measuring a group it is pure speculation and 2″ or even 3″ groups take on the appearance of 1″ groups to the unaided eye at 25 yards.

      If that man put 50 shots through a 3″ hole at 25 yards one handed with a service issued .45 acp he was an awesome shot!

      Why does every one think a .45 acp is a lousy shooting gun? Back in the day 25 – 30 years ago I could buy a run of the mill brand off the shelf and MOST would not shoot worse than 3.5″ Ransom rested at 25 yards.

      My one exception was a very expensive Colt Gold Cup National “Match” that started off benching 8″ at 25 yards. It went back to Colt 5 X, and even after THAT it would only Ransom rest 4″ groups! So it got sold and I never bought another gun with the Colt name on it!! Any wonder they went under?

      I did how ever buy all the hand tools needed to accurize a 1911 and took a pistolsmithing at a college about 75 miles down the road and then took a dvd course on accurizing a 1911.

      Using all that I accurized 5 different guns with the very best giving an occasional 1.75″ group and the worst were 2.25″ The others hovered around 2.5″ and some were around 3″.

      Could I shoot that well. Heck no! If I shot a 10 shot 3″ group at 25 yards off hand, I was Ecstatic! But I could NEVER say the problem was the gun!

      And my specialty with 1911′s was NOT slow fire target work. It was bowling pin matches and falling plate matches and sanctioned combat matches which included moving target torso matches. In other words any thing where you needed to combine speed and accuracy. I did quite well on bp and fp and not as well on sanctioned combat but still really good.

      Like BB says, those were the days! I will cherish them forever. I am getting too old and am disabled which definitely hurts my abilities. But nothing (cept may alzheimers God forbid!) can take away those cherished memories.

      Yong folks, enjoy it while you can. Life itself doesn’t last forever. Often as you get older health slips before even life itself.

  • flobert Says:

    I’m pretty sure there’s a range named after Bonsall at Ft. Benning.

    The *real* rare one is Triple Distinguished. A friend of mine got it a few years ago. You need to get Rifle, Pistol, and International Distinguished. He had Rifle and International, and just needed pistol. The “farty-five” you use can be “caressed” by a gunsmith but not much. 4lb trigger pull, generally 4.5 to make sure, iron sights, etc. A drill bit makes a dandy replacement pin for an Eliason sight BTW, a lil’ fix I did on his.

    The International Distinguished means you have to be US team, and actually do something. I’m short on points. I don’t even want to think of the bother it would be to get the rest of my points. Rifle and Pistol are do-able, you just have to shoot a nearly out-of-the-box military weapon at a lot of matches that are scattered around, and with ammo I think they hand you out of a military box. And be a fairly decent shot. It’s a combination of accurate shooting *and* endurance. And Double Distinquished would be quite the coup. A lot of people can shoot a rifle OK but have trouble with pistol. Excellence in both is …. excellent.

    I disagree with your diagram. I think the index finger is too far out to the tip on the trigger. You want to be right center on the pad, and change the grips etc to make it so. It’s only one person’s opinion though.

  • Mr B. Says:

    kevin,

    I should have thought of this yesterday. Would you like to borrow a laser for awhile and let your friend give it a try before he purchases one? If so, shoot me an e-mail and I’ll get one off to you.

    Bruce

  • Mike Says:

    BB; Thanks for the .45 griping information. I’ll give it a try the next time I’m at the range! I hadn’t seen that one before.

    Mike

  • Victor Says:

    B.B.,

    This is one of my favorite articles, as it presents a beautifully clear, concise, and accessible solution to one of the most difficult things to do, namely, shooting a pistol accurately. The lesson here is essentially the same for shooting a hold sensitive springer (any gun, really). The trick is repeatability.

    The combination of grip and trigger on too many guns (rifle or pistol) make repeatability a little hard, so we either have to practice a great deal to master the gun, or we augment the gun with either putty, or some form of marker (e.g., tape), so that we rely less on memory, and more on feel (or touch).

    Paddy is particularly useful when a gun simply cannot be made to NATURALLY align well between things like the sights, grip, your arm, and eyes. This is what is usually accomplished with custom grips. An important detail here is that it takes a lot of time to find out exactly the kind of augmentation is required for YOUR particular hand, even with custom grips.

    Bottom line, when I bring a pistol up, I want to see the sights automatically aligned, and I want my trigger finger in precisely the same position each time. With some guns, you just need a little help. So looking at the picture above, I would be looking at filling in the gaps, so that the whole hand falls in place each time. All that remains is the ability to bring the trigger straight back, such that you do not disturb your sight alignment.

    This article is a keeper!

    Thanks,
    Victor

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Victor,

      I’m glad you like the article. I also use putty to correct my target pistol grips. And like you, I want the pistol to align with the target naturally. I spend a lot of time moving my feet until it does just that.

      B.B.

      • Victor Says:

        B.B.,

        Yup. You want a good, solid, natural point of aim throughout your body. Otherwise, you’re fighting against yourself, and not realizing your true wobble area.

        Victor

  • Lloyd Says:

    Tomorrow is Mothers Day………..
    Hey guys,
    I know that all of the folks that frequent this blog are a class act, but still…..
    Remember that tomorrow is Mothers Day and that its important to do something nice for your Mother or wife or daughter (if she’s a mom, too.) I am lucky enough to have all three (two of the latter) and I know how lucky I am.
    That special thing you do for her might just be some little thing, like hanging that picture that she’s given up on asking you about anymore. It might not be important to you, but it means something to her.

    I remember a number of years ago buying something at Lowes the day before Mother’s day. The cashier was doing her public service that day by reminding all the men who came thru her line that tomorrow was Mothers day. I bet she made for a better Sunday in a few households.

    Thanks for letting me share that,
    Lloyd

    • Chuck Says:

      Lloyd,
      Thanks for sharing. My mom will be 92 come September. Tomorrow, I’m taking her out to dinner. She’s very hard of hearing and is having problems with bad pain in her leg. I don’t know what happened to her. Somehow she grew old when I wasn’t looking. But she still bakes me a pie every now and then.
      -Chuck

  • pete zimmerman Says:

    I’ve got a problem for all. I am going to be taking a 3 week vacation in mid june that involves spending significant time at a resort in Pennsylvania. After much looking we found one that has a sporting clays school (since I have fired at clays exactly 2x in my life, I am a rank beginner and will rent my shotgun from them. But they also have a decent AP/AR range, and I’m told I can bring my own guns and that they will clear the kids out for an hour or two a day so I can shoot. No AP or AR instruction.

    Sounds nice. Now, how do I get the guns there? They will all be kept in locked cases kept inside the locked trunk of the car, and the tanks will not be attached to the actions. I expect to travel through or clip the corners of VIRGINIA (should be no problem), of MARYLAND (don’t know), DELAWARE, NEW JERSEY, PENNSYLVANIA and conceivably NEW YORK. What law enforcement offices should I notify/register/file for a permit with? One set of full tanks will take care of the CO2 guns; I will probably bring my SCUBA tank for the pistol. So is there an approved way to carry the gas tanks?

    Thanks all in advance for your help!

    pz

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Pete,

      Local law enforcement usually doesn’t know the laws of their state or even their jurisdiction, so asking them is just setting yourself up for problems. They can tell you the names of all the major crimes, and even give them in code numbers, but when it comes to obscure ordinances, they haven’t got a clue and will make up what they think the laws ought to be.

      It’s like asking UPS about the shipping laws. Until you get to the head office, nobody knows and they all fake it.

      The office to ask is the state’s attorney general and then keep the name of the person you spoke with. When Edith checks the shipping laws of each state for Pyramyd Air, that’s where she always goes.

      I can tell you that Maryland and Delaware are no problem, but New Jersey is.

      New York should also not be a problem, but cities like NYC are.

      B.B.

      • Edith Gaylord Says:

        Pete & B.B.,

        I don’t think New Jersey is a problem either. The laws apply to residents of NJ. A recent court case involved a man who moved to NJ but didn’t register his firearms. His plea? He wasn’t a resident. He’d been living there for 2 years, I believe, but I think he claimed he wasn’t planning on staying there (I think he’s in jail now).

        In almost every state I’ve lived, residency is established if (1) you have no other residential address you use outside of the state for bills, etc., and (2) you have lived there for 30 days or more. If you’re just living there temporarily due to work or some other temporary issue (family illness, etc.) and have a residence outside that state, then you probably would not be considered a resident (depending on the state, this second litmus test may vary depending on how much they want to prosecute you).

        Years ago, a field target shooter in Maryland (Dale Benson), was traveling to a field target match in N.J. He had a serious car accident on the way and his air rifles (all springers) were scattered all over the highway. The NJ State Highway Patrol officers helped him pick up his guns from the highway & never said a word or asked him any questions about licensure or anything else. Dale told us that story because he was concerned that he might go to jail for transporting firearms and not having a NJ firearms license.

        Personally, I don’t believe the law enforcement officers in NJ who have a problem with guns (for the most part)…it’s the politicians. In NJ, unlike other states, there are many police organizations that hold shooting events for youngster so they can learn to use guns safely. I found out about this seeming inconsistency when I was researching NJ’s firearm laws several years ago.

        I’m constantly surprised by the number of youth shooting events held by NJ police organizations. I think these were in place before the crazy laws were instituted…and this tradition just kept going on in spite of the fact that politics took a different path.

        Of course, Fred from the PRoNJ will have a different outlook on NJ’s crazy laws

        Edith

        • Slinging Lead Says:

          Air rifles scattered all over the highway? Oh, the horror. That makes my stomach hurt.

          On the subject of the police making up things as they go along, I have personal experience with this. I think some (but not all) cops never got the bullying out of their system in highschool, so bossing and belittling the citizenry is their raison d’ etre.

          In one case I was driving to work early Thanksgiving morning, and I got pulled over for speeding. After waiting about 20 minutes for the officer to check my pedigree on his computer, I thought maybe he was taking a nap in his car. When he finally reared his ugly head again, I found out the reason why it took so long. He wrote TWO speeding tickets. His absurd reasoning was that the speed limit had changed from a 35mph limit to a 45mph limit while I was speeding. So according to this dufus it was two violations. “You can’t be serious.” was my reply. “Get moving.” was his snide response. “See you in court.” was my retort. “GET MOVING!” Ahh, highschool. You see, holding me prisoner on the side of the road for half an hour was hunkydory, however once he had tired of struggling to put letters together into words on his violation report my presence there represented a clear danger to fellow motorists. I did get moving. After I slowly opened a pack of smokes, and lit one.

          If officer friendly had two working brain cells, one of them must have been misfiring on my court date, because he was stupid enough to show up. Instead of the judge throwing the charges out, he lambasted the policeman in front of the court for trying to pull a fast one, and left officer Dufus red-faced and stuttering. Then he threw the charges out. Score one for the good guys.

          You want more? I got more.

          • Frank B Says:

            We should swap some stories via Email……I even have one involving airguns and Two agencies,and more than 15 badges.Oh,I have some you’ll swear I made up!

            • J-F Says:

              Could this be made into a blog? We send the stories to Edith and Tom (who can then edit the offensive or illegal parts if any are present).
              Airgun Tales? Kinda like bench racing for car guys…
              I know I sure would like to hear more of those, a few of the ones Tom has encountered in his career as a writer and working for airforce. Names can be changed to protect the guilty (or dumb people).

              J-F

  • Frank B Says:

    Pete,that sounds like a nice trip.I would like to think the content of locked cases in your locked trunk would be NONE of anyone’s buisness.UPS doesn’t need special permission to transport purchases of AG to consumers.Probably quite different if you wanted to shoot them in all the states mentioned,but I wouldn’t worry about it.IMHO,have a safe trip.

  • pete zimmerman Says:

    The contents of the car only become anybody else’s business if I’m stopped (e.g. for speeding) or if I’m in an accident. Both are improbable but not impossible. So I’m taking a few hours of research time before hopping into the car with the guns. BB, Edith, thanks very much for the info! I’ll see what I can find out from the attorney general’s office in NJ. Worst thing that can happen is that we don’t drive through NJ which is their (economic) loss, not mine.

    Youth shooting events are very important to gun safety, and to the future of the target shooting sport. More power to the NJ police who run them!

    -pete

    • Slinging Lead Says:

      Pete

      “I’ve got a problem…” is usually not followed by “I am going to be taking a three week vacation…” It is incongruous!

      I hope you have a great time, and stay out of the pokey.

    • Mr B. Says:

      pete,

      The contents of your locked, closed not visible to the officer, trunk are not an issue if you are stopped for a “simple” speeding ticket. The officer does not have probable cause to search your trunk or car in that case. However, if you should be silly enough have something that would be of interest to the officer, in a professional manner, in his view while you are being stopped, all bets are off.

      I am with Frank B and do have some stories to tell, if either of you are interested let me know .

      Bruce

    • Fred PRoNJ Says:

      Pete, the laws of NJ state that a firearm can be transported in a vehicle when going to or from your place or business or home when initially purchased, going to a range, hunting, gunsmith or gunshop. The travel must be direct with only required stops allowed (eg gas, restroom – not coffee or snack). The firearm must be unloaded and in a locked cased with the ammunition stored separately. A locked trunk is good for a locked case so a soft case can be used. I say firearm because NJ’s laws state anything that fires a projectile by any means is considered a firearm. I’ll provide the exact wording if you want.

      PA, MD, NYS with the exception of NYC, and I believe Philly do not consider an air rifle or air pistol a firearm. Search your trunk? You get two or three State Troopers shoving you around demanding you open your trunk because you acted suspiciously or resembled someone who’s been robbing gas stations or your car matches the description of a car just spotted in a crime scene? I wouldn’t bet the ranch on this one. This was from my friend’s mother is is a State appointed defense attorney. She doesn’t have much use for the police around here.

      As for whom to ask, I’d go to an NRA recommended attorney or a gun store. I don’t trust State Attorneys and definitely, DO NOT ASK THE POLICE. There was a guy moving here from Denver and did that. His mother later called the police for unclear reasons (the papers didn’t delve into this) and the police came, made him open his trunk, found his legally purchased guns, found he wasn’t a resident and didn’t have an ID card (required in Jersey) and wasn’t a resident and arrested him. Sure, he was transporting firearms and not in a direct path per above. The Governor, Chris Christie, commuted the sentence (2 years). The laws here are confusing and contradictory in many cases.

      Fred PRoNJ

      • Frank B Says:

        That is really a signifigant fear of mine.I grew up in upstate NY,but have lived in South Carolina,South Florida,Louisiana & Alabama.I respect the law and those who uphold it at great personal risk.I want to make that clear.However,that doesn’t match up with some of the experiences I have had.I refuse to elaborate here because it emphasizes the negative…..and would serve this blog no real purpose.
        I think too much of Tom and Edith for that.

  • Chuck Says:

    BB,
    Your graphic for the correct pistol grip was easy to understand and emulate. In one of your future articles I’d like to see a graphic of your recommendation for foot placement and arm position relative to the target for pistol shooting.
    -Chuck

    • Chuck Says:

      And to help with overall alignment the position of the shoulders should be included, too.
      -Chuck

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Chuck,

      You are the second person to remark about foot placement. I searched the old blogs to point you to a report, but I couldn’t find one. If I can’t find it with the administrative tools I have available, no one else will be able to find it either, except by dumb luck or a brute-force search of over 1,400 reports.

      So I will write a new one just for you and because Victor also commented on it. I wrote a good one for “The Airgun Letter” and I’ll read that to glean what was special about it. Foot placement is very crucial to good accuracy in both rifle and pistol competition, though my experience is with the pistol. But to keep us on track, I’ll bundle this foot report in with this P1 report. I have an amusing anecdote to share about how the P1 was created, anyway, so I’ll stick it in there.

      B.B.

        • Lloyd Says:

          Excellent! Thanks very much for the additional info. Lloyd

        • Chuck Says:

          BB/Edith,
          Thanks for your trouble. That’s exactly what I was looking for. I was close to your suggestions but not confident. Now, you’ve given me something to add the confidence. I wasn’t sure of the angle of the stance in relation to the arm.

          It’s amazing how holding the pistol with one finger like this produces a much more steady sight picture than gripping with the whole hand. However, even though I know the other fingers are along for the ride, when I tell them to sit down in the back seat and be quiet they don’t do it. :-)

          -Chuck

          • B.B. Pelletier Says:

            Chuck,

            Okay, then I won’t repeat myself. I’ll stick the anecdote in with the P1 accuracy test, instead.

            As for your other fingers not behaving, it does take practice. In time you will feel the hold when you do it right. But I don’t think it ever becomes natural.

            B.B.

        • Slinging Lead Says:

          Edith

          We knew you could do it.

  • Lloyd Says:

    Airgun hunting in Virginia

    OK, I know there are several Virginia folks on here. I was just looking up something about small game hunting on the Va game site and I noticed that the regulations now specifically allow airguns.
    I don’t remember seeing that before. Am I the last to know! Unless I am really missing something this is fantastic!

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/general.asp#legal-use

    Lloyd

    • Frank B Says:

      As this continues to go well….I sure hope it spreads to as many states as possible! With feral hogs and other intrusive species wreaking havoc here it sure would be nice to pitch in.NOT with Gamo’s of course!

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Lloyd,

      What a well-written law. Easy to read and understand.

      B.B.

    • Wulfraed Says:

      Browsing the MI DNR site… Appears MI is one of those states where the shotgun-only clause applies to part of the state just for deer season…

      Hmmm… Looks like no deer hunting with my Walther P99… Shotgun zone permits pistols but…

      A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

      Both of my .40S&W exceed the 8+1 limit. Guess I’ll have to stick to the .357mag Contender.

      But if I drive north two counties to get into the Rifle zone, the regulations allow:

      n the rifle zone, deer may be taken with handguns, rifles, crossbows, bows and arrows, shotguns and muzzleloading firearms including black powder handguns. It is legal to hunt deer in the rifle zone with any caliber of firearm except a .22 caliber or smaller rimfire (rifle or handgun). During the firearm deer seasons, a firearm deer hunter may carry afield a bow and arrow and firearm.

      Taken literally, the P99 is permitted in the rifle zone even with the high capacity magazine; or a .25ACP mouse gun — but not my .30 M1 carbine:

      It is unlawful to hunt with a semi-automatic shotgun or semi-automatic rifle that can hold more than six shells in the barrel and magazine combined unless it is a .22 caliber rimfire.

      (Only reason I have one costly 5 round magazine for my HK-91)

      Leave the snake cartridges at home — it is illegal to “Shoot reptiles and amphibians with a firearm (including spring, air or gas propelled).”

      Also leave the laser at home unless you are legally blind (in which case the laser acts as a spotting device for your assistant to give directions on aim and fire)

  • Ricardo Rdz. Says:

    didn’tmay be off topic, but since the pertinent blog is a little old now, I post it here, since it is about a spring-piston pistol.

    I recently purchased a Diana LP8 Magnum air pistol, not in Pyramid Air, mind you.Since the day I received it it seemed to shoot a little odd to me. At practically sea level where I shot it it the first time, at 10 meters it didn´t go Thru a Dr. Pepper 20 oz plastic bottle, empty, until I unscrewed the cap, and then it only went thru the first side, remaining inside the bottle.
    Yesterday, I finally got access to a chrony at a field target competition, about 2000 feet above sea level, and I could finally test my pistol.
    The first test was with 8.2 gr RWS meisterkugeln, getting from 479 to 514.5 fps, Averaging 494.9fps.
    The second test was with 7.0gr RWS Hobbys, getting from 505.8 to 559.1fps, averaging 522.0fps.

    The owner of the chrony said that the gun seemed pretty low, and that another fellow with a Browning 800 was getting beyond 600fps with regular pellets.

    Did I get a lemmon, or is it just slightly below average?
    Should I ask for an exchange?
    Should it get faster after breaking in?

    • Wulfraed Says:

      Jumping in, but you said /pistol/, no?

      Unless that thing has a massive spring/piston I’d suspect you’re in the ball-park for something with a pistol length barrel.

      My Gamo “NRA 1000 Special” /rifle/ chronographed [225ft above sea level] at just 850fps with RWS MKrifle (~8.3gr); 926fps with (~6.9gr) Hobby (the different weights may indicate a very old batch of pellets from a sampler pack).

      In the single pump pneumatics (yes, a different class of critter), the 8.3 gr pellet managed: Daisy 953 rifle — 450fps; Daisy 717 pistol — 376fps; Baikal/IZH MP46m — 438fps

      Give it time to break-in, then a drop of chamber oil, and see what it does (if you can get a flash of oil combustion, the speeds may improve — though you’d want consistent combustion then).

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Ricardo,

      You should have read the report I did on the LP-8. I found it for you, and the velocity test is here:

      http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/08/rws-model-lp8-magnum-part-2-wow.html

      I didn’t test the pistol I tested with Hobbys, but with RWS Basics that weigh the same as Hobbys it averaged 581 f.p.s. So your pistol is going about 59 f.p.s. slower. While that isn’t terrible, it does raise a question.

      Have you oiled the piston of your pistol? I don’t think you have. If you do, I think you’ll see an increase of about 40-50 f.p.s., which would put you back into the right range. And that would be for Hobbys, alone. The other pellets you mention would also speed up, but not as much, since they are heavier.

      Use silicone oil, only. Nothing else. This is the right stuff:

      http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_Silicone_Chamber_Oil/311

      Drop three drops through the air transfer port that is behind the barrel and then fire the gun a couple of times with pellets, of course. It may make a loud report a time or two, but keep firing until it no longer does.

      DO NOT use any other kind of oil, including “silicone” spray from the hardware store. The oil I have recommended will maintain your piston seal in top condition, while substitutes can wreck your gun.

      Try this and please get back with us, so we know the problem is fixed.

      B.B.

      • Ricardo Rdz. Says:

        B.B.,
        Thanks for the quick answer, I really appreciate it.
        I have some other Diana guns and bought some years ago the set of lubes and solvents for them. I wonder if the RWS Chamber Oil is equivalent to the Crosman Silicone Oil and could be used, since I already have it around and it may be some time before I go to the States again.
        I hope the oil does the trick. I was starting to feel frustrated with this pistol, that I got a bad sample, but not so bad that I could get a refund or a replacement. You cheered my day up!
        Ricardo Rodríguez

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Ricardo,

          Absolutely use the RWS chamber oil. I didn’t know you had some. I really do think it will work but I want to hear from you either way.

          Good luck,

          B.B.

          • Ricardo Rdz. Says:

            B.B.,
            Sorry for the delay.
            I was able to borrow another chronographer, and did as you said, put 3 drops of RWS Chamber Lube in the air transfer port. After a few shots for the gun to stop smoking, I made the testings. I´m afraid it didn´t work as expected. This are the results:
            RWS Meisterkulgeln 8.2 gr : 459 fps Avg., so it actually got slower from previous 494 fps
            RWS Hobby 7.0 gr: 527 and 530 fps Avg. in two strings, a little improvement over previous 522 fps
            Crosman Competition (regular wadcuter) 7.4 gr: 494 fps Avg.

            So it seems that id didn´t work. I have noted that it has a quite wide spread on velocities too. Don´t know if it needs some special tunning or is it just the way it is and will settle over time . Any other ideas?

            • B.B. Pelletier Says:

              Ricardo,

              I think it must be a seal that’s leaking. The dealer will fix it for you, if you bought it from Pyramyd Air. Otherwise, the gun needs to go back to Umarex USA, who warrants the gun.

              http://www.umarexusa.com

              Please let us know how this turns out for you.

              B.B.

              • Ricardo Rdz. Says:

                Hi B.B.,
                Sorry for the delay.
                I did just what you suggested, and sent the gun back to Umarex for warranty.
                They changed the mainspring and piston seal. Hope to see a big improvement in velocity and consistency when I finally go to the States to take it home, likely in October.

                It costed me like 40 dollars shipping it there and back, but as I bought it at 455 Dlls, it still is on the verge of some retailers´ price, and still ahead of what would cost me here in Mexico.

                Will let you know how it turns out at the end.

                Ricardo

                • Ricardo Rdz. Says:

                  Oops, that would be 255 Dlls, not 455. For that money I would rather buy me a Beeman P1 :-)
                  As a matter of fact, I am even considering the idea, once I finish paying this one, to sell it and buy a beeman P1. But that´s just an idea yet.

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