by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Diana 45 is a large breakbarrel spring rifle.
This report covers:
• Remove the barrel
• Barrel off!
• Remove the piston
• Disassembly is complete
• One last look
We have a lot to cover today, so let’s get right to it. We left the Diana 45 with the mainspring out of the gun at the end of yesterday’s report. The only thing left in the disassembly is to remove the piston. Do not disassemble a gun if you’re not 100% certain you can put it back together again in safe working condition!
Remove the barrel
The piston will not come out of the gun until the cocking link that connects it to the underside of the barrel (for cocking) is removed. To do that, you must first separate the barrel from the spring tube. That step is easy on some breakbarrels, but not so easy with this 45. On most breakbarrels, you remove the pivot bolt from the action forks and the barrel separates from the spring tube. The Diana 45 has another step; and unless you follow it, the barrel will never come off the gun.
I unscrewed the pivot bolt with a Phillips screwdriver. The nut on the other side stayed in place and allowed the bolt to back out. With the bolt out, I could see the star lock washers that are on either side of the pivot bolt hole.
The pivot bolt and nut are out, and you can see the star lockwasher still in the hole. With this bolt removed, the barrels on most guns will come out of the action forks (at the end of the spring tube), but not the Diana 45 barrel. There’s still one more thing to do.
The barrel still won’t separate from the action fork. Something is holding it in place. When you remove the star washer, you see a bushing that acts as a bearing for the pivot joint. The pivot bolt passes through this bushing, and it’s the bushing that takes the full load when the gun is cocked. This bushing drives out of the baseblock with little resistance.
Under the star washer, we find the barrel pivot bushing. This also has to come out before the barrel comes out of the action fork.
After I drove the bushing out of the baseblock, all the parts that hold the barrel in the spring tube action forks are out of the gun. It’s quite a list. They include the pivot bolt, the pivot bolt nut, two star washers and the pivot bushing that acts as a bearing when the rifle is cocked.
All the parts that hold the barrel to the action. The pivot bushing that acts as a bearing is the part that was unexpected.
The pivot bushing drives out easily, yet it fits the pivot joint hole very tight. This will be a part that gets moly grease when the rifle is assembled. The pivot bolt by itself doesn’t really bear much of the force when the rifle is cocked, but I’ll put moly grease on it, as well, just for good measure.
Barrel off!
With the bushing out, the barrel slips out of the action forks. At this point, the cocking link will probably disconnect from the piston by itself, but I’ll come back to that in a moment. For now, let’s examine the sides of the baseblock, which is the flat block that holds the barrel.
Each side of the baseblock has its own unique pivot washer. These are asymmetric metal washers that fit into specially machined cutouts in the baseblock. If this is the first time you’ve seen a breakbarrel rifle taken apart, these may not seem strange; but most guns don’t have them. Most guns have either a plain flat washer on either side of the baseblock or nothing at all. Some guns have synthetic flat washers that wear very quickly when handled but will last long enough if the gun never comes apart.
Diana used these asymmetric washers for many years. They have the advantage of not “walking” out of place when the rifle is cocked. Weihrauch uses flat washers that do tend to walk, though they count on the pivot bolt that passes through their centers to stop them. But Weihrauch washers sometimes get chewed up in their center hole from the contact they make with the pivot bolt. Diana washers cannot move this way, so they don’t get damaged.
These washers are wonderful parts that perform a very specialized job, but the question arises: Are they worth the expense? First, the special washers have to be made (each side is different), then the baseblock must be machined on both sides to fit them. And, if you need to buy a washer at some point, only the same side of the washer will fit, because the other side is shaped differently. So, you have specialized parts that do their jobs very well — instead of plain parts that work okay most of the time. Is the extra machining and cost of stocking different parts worth the benefit?
You know the answer. As we move into the future, specialized parts that are not crucial to the operation of anything will be eliminated. An old Russian saying regarding design goes, “Perfection is the enemy of good enough.” And it does make sense. If plain washers will work, why suffer the expense of specialized parts that require extra machining time and parts handling?
The left pivot washer fits into a specially machined place in the baseblock.
The right pivot washer is shaped differently than the left one, and its hole is specially machined to fit.
I mentioned the pivot washers because I’ll lubricate them with moly when I put the rifle together again. Be sure you don’t misplace them — because, as you can see, each one is different. Putting them back isn’t difficult because they only fit one side of the baseblock.
Remove the piston
Now, we’ll remove the piston. When the barrel came apart from the spring tube, the cocking link separated from the piston. It was actually attached to a sliding part we’ll call the cocking shoe. Let’s look at that. The cocking shoe slides in a slot in the piston and is the part that pushes the piston back against the mainspring when the rifle’s cocked. The cocking link fits into a slot in the shoe and does the pushing as the barrel’s levered down.
On many guns, the spring tube has a wide spot in its cocking slot where the shoe can be removed, clearing the way for the piston to slide out of the tube. Until the shoe is out, the piston remains captive in the spring tube.
The Diana 45 does not have a wide spot in the spring tube. It also doesn’t have a cutout, where the shoe might be rotated away from the cocking slot. At first glance, there’s no way to remove the shoe from the piston, and therefore no way to remove the piston from the spring tube.
But it has to come out, because the makers were able to get it in. So, we need to find where that shoe has clearance. And it’s in the bottom of the slot it sits in!
The Diana 45 piston has a black metal sleeve that fits inside the piston. It’s very reminiscent of the beer-can tune that blog reader Milan used to talk about. Being black, it looks like part of the piston, but it’s actually a separate part. When it slides out of the back of the piston, it opens a hole that the cocking shoe drops into. Now, the shoe’s clear, and the piston can be removed from the spring tube.
The cocking shoe (arrow) slides along the slot in the piston and spring tube. When the gun’s cocked, the shoe pushes the piston back until the sear catches the end of the piston.
The black piston sleeve (arrow) has been backed out of the piston, allowing the cocking shoe to drop inside the piston body and out of the gun.
The black piston sleeve and cocking shoe are out of the piston.
The piston now slides out of the spring tube at the back. As predicted, the leather piston seal looks brand new. It would be a shame to waste a fresh seal like this, which has at least 50 more years of hard use ahead of it.
The leather piston seal looks brand new. I’ll reuse it when the gun goes back together.
The black piston sleeve looks exactly like Milan was describing in his beer-can tune. The ends are folded-over flaps that a washer rests against inside, and the mainspring presses on the washer then the gun is assembled.
The black piston sleeve has small flaps that hold the washer inside. The mainspring presses against the washer when the gun is assembled.
Disassembly is complete
The airgun is now taken apart as far as I’m going to go. At this point, the assessment begins. What’s loose and needs to be tightened?
First, I note that the spring guide is a little loose on the mainspring. A new, tighter guide will have to be made. This is deceiving, since the canted section of the spring is at the end that’s on the guide, so it feels tighter than it really is. The bend helps hold the mainspring on the guide by pushing against it. But I’ve seen enough spring guides to know this one is loose.
Next, I note that the black piston sleeve fits tight inside the piston, but the mainspring is loose inside the sleeve. Now, the outside of the spring increases in diameter when the spring is compressed, so this may not be too bad. We have to allow for some growth of the spring when the rifle’s cocked.
I note that the rear of the piston is loose inside the spring tube. Diana relied on the spring guide and the piston sleeve to guide the piston straight, but I think we might benefit by putting some synthetic bearings on the outside rear of the piston.
I’m impressed by all the attention to detail I see in this air rifle. Compared to this 45, an FWB 124 is simple and a bit crude. But I do know that all Diana 45s buzz a bit, so even these overbuilt parts will need to be tightened just a little. My goal is for the rifle to cock smoothly and easily and for the gun to fire with a solid “thunk.” From what I see in this powerplant, that should be achievable.
Everything from this point on depends on the new mainspring that I use to replace the bent spring that came out of the gun. The dimensions of the new spring will drive all those other tolerances mentioned above — so nothing happens until I have that spring in hand. And, no, not even a spring from another Diana 45 would measure exactly the same as this one. It’s physically impossible to manufacture coiled steel springs to the same, exact dimensions. You can only get springs of the same, exact dimensions by sorting them after production. So, whatever spring I use, all the future work I do on this airgun has to key on it.
One last look
I am impressed by the quality I see in this rifle. Until this disassembly, I had no idea Diana ever made a sporting spring gun this complex. I hope the improvements I make will deliver the results I’m looking for.
I don’t care to increase the rifle’s power with this tune. I’m after smoothness, which is what the owner, Johnny Hill, asked for. If I can get that with reasonable power, I’ll be happy.
When I had my 31 T06 apart a while ago, I don’t remember seeing those special washers in it. In fact, there might not even be space for them inside the stock. It’s a fairly tight fight in that place already.
Apart from that, my rifle seems to look very similar internally.
B.B.,
Thanks for the awesome report. Yes, it is complex but I think that it is not too much to tackle with this great disassembly reference. I was surprised to see how good the leather piston seal looked. I am very interested to see the future reports about determining the size of the new spring guide as well as what to use and how to install synthetic bearings on the piston. I think that I will get started on the design of my own spring compressor this weekend. Please be sure to share your source for parts. Thanks
Tabrown,
I will share my source for parts, but I’m getting the Delrin bearings from Johnny Hill who has a ton of the stuff.
B.B.
Hello BB and Fellow Airgunners
Thank you for this detailed look at disassembling this Diana 45 spring piston airgun. I too was impressed with the sophistication Diana put into the inner workings of this gun. As you say, they didn’t have to make it so detailed, and probably could have gotten by with fewer parts then it has in order to make it shoot. Thank goodness for German ingenuity, and innovation, or we may not be talking about this gun if it where just “run of the mill”. I eagerly anticipate your plans concerning removing the buzzing, and your use of synthetic bearings on the piston has me intrigued. Of coarse there is the lubrication, etc., and finally the reassembly. A very ambitious undertaking that is only available on your blog. Again, thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with us.
I don’t currently own a Diana, however my wife has expressed an interest in airgun plinking after watching our daughter and I having so much fun plinking soda cans with my Weihrauch HW50. I have in mind obtaining the Diana 240 Classic in .177 for her to shoot. As this is the gun I recommended to a young friend, I can attest to it’s smooth cocking, and light 2 stage trigger. I believe the trigger to be the T05 so it is adjustable. Accuracy is right there with my HW50, but at 5.7lbs, it is about a pound and a half lighter. Workmanship, materials, fit and finish, are second to none. I consider it a bargain at about $210.00. after taxes. I would have thought my wife to be the last person to acquire the desire for the shooting sports. I plan on purchasing the 240 Classic quickly before she decides to have sober second thoughts, thus putting the kibosh on any future family airgun fun.
Ciao
Titus
Titus,
My theory about shooting is — it’s like darts. If you go for the accuracy, everything else falls away. You don’t shoot to hear the noise or to feel the recoil. You shoot to hit the target.
Target shooting is a sport people have pursued for thousands of years (stones, spears, arrows, etc.) and I believe it must be in our DNA. Therefore, target shooting is enjoyable to most people — no matter how it is done.
B.B.
BB,
I am very impressed with the construction of this air rifle. A lot of thought has been given to all the problem areas encountered in the day to day operation of a sproinger. It is no wonder that all of the internal parts look to be in very good condition with the exception of the spring.
This is the kind of sproinger that I am looking for. With proper care, this air rifle should last for many years to come, even with regular use. I strongly suspect that you are going to have a hard time returning this one to the owner. 😉
RR,
Yes, I probably will have a hard time returning this gun. Especially if I get it to where I want it.
But the Ohio airgun show is coming up and there will be chances to get other 45s, if I want.
B.B.
Speaking of airgun shows, you requested information of upcoming shows for this year. Are you going to post this information somewhere?
RR,
Yes. I got only the one show in California from that request, so it looks like I will have to to it the hard way.
B.B.
I just sent an email to TMac’s Airgun Service to find out when the 3rd Annual Airgun Show is. They are taking reservations for tables now.
Just checked ,and T.W.Chambers and Co., U.K. has some Diana 45 psrts. Have purchase items from them….Also, there is a exploded view of the air gun with pats numbers to guide you. Print it also.
Thanks, B.B. and Edith !
Pete
Pete,
Thanks for that info. If I can’t find a spring in my stash I will have to get a replacement somewhere.
B.B.
B.B. Pardon the many typos…smaller pica sizes are difficult for me to see…..Lol..
Pete
B.B.,
“Do not disassemble a gun if you’re not 100% certain you can put it back together again in safe working condition!” That’s pretty good advice. And I would add, “Have the proper tools.”
They say that every airplane with retractable landing gear will eventually be landed with the gear retracted, and that the landing gear switch in the cockpit will be found in the “down” position. While I have not “gear-upped” an airplane on the runway, I have disassembled a gun and not gotten it back together. There was a good reason to disassemble the gun, but I surely couldn’t reassemble it, and there I was, every gunsmith’s nightmare, a guy with parts in a plastic bag asking for help. Fortunately, my gunsmith knows me well, and he quickly had the gun back together.
I have much enjoyed your series on the Diana 45. Thanks for a great report. Hope everyone has a safe weekend.
RB
Good for you. There can be no learning without error.
If we only undertook projects we were 100% confident of completeing sucessfully, we would have died out as a species eons ago.
The 45 rifle seems to me to embody the best of the old style know how before cost cutting measures. I’m keeping my leather seal too.
Is this the highest powered leather sealed rifle?
Do the Lincoln Jeffries BSA rifles come close?
Rob,
The older BSA rifles are 200+ f.p.s. slower than this 45. The 45v was one of the 4 Horsemen of the 1970s that were at or just over 800 f.p.s. Of the 4, Only the BSF S55 had leather seals with the 45, I believe, though by the 70s even BSF might have made the change.
B.B.
We have to remember that the 45 was built by Diana as a competitor to the FWB124. That was a time when German engineering and craftsmanship were important. All those details sold guns and increased pride of ownership. It looks like Diana built the 45 to be the best engineered rifle as well as a good shooter and powerful gun. Historically it fell below the mark due to the leather piston seal which just wasn’t up to the higher power that they were trying to achieve.
David Enoch
David,
I don’t think it was the 45’s leather seal that fell short. The 45 is a short-stroke gun, while the 124 is a long stroke. That was the difference, I think.
B.B.
Like I said at the beginning of this tear down, these were very well respected rifles here in the UK, smack on the 12fpe limit without a stroke that was long and lazy, they outsold the Feinwerkbau in droves by being just as accurate and well made whilst being a fair bit cheaper with a better trigger. Some people had problems with the cross pin loosening up on them though
Can’t say I’m a fan of the metal piston shims, something else to rattle about as far as I can tell, if you wanted something metallic in there why not just mill the piston internal diameter 2mm smaller, if you were to change that out for a Delrin sleeve it would damp things much more nicely……I would say make one from a washing up liquid bottle….but that gets howls of derision on here 🙂
Dom
Its cool you have those other ways of modding. Its just now days there is so much available to just click and buy.
And I will say real quick that doesn’t mean that all those after market products will be good. But there is a lot of quality products out there that have knowledgeable people testing and developing.
So if you got ideas please say them. And you know how that goes somebody’s always got something to say about how something should be.
You know all those rules of how something should be or be done. Well I will just say this that I messed with cars drag racing and had $4,000 cars that was beating $80,000 cars. And people telling me what I was doing wasn’t going to work. I don’t worry about that stuff. You learn from experience.
So Yea if you got a way to do something say it. And who ever is listening can determine if its something they want to do or not do.
I will be listening. 🙂
Dom
I don’t think replacing the metal sleeve with a plastic dish washing soap bottle will be rigid enough to handle the force of the cocking stroke. I might of misunderstood what I read.
Plastic shimming the inside of the piston is more commonly done with plastics by tuners these days, though granted with a custom cut sheet of Delrin rather than my washing up bottle/Tupperware method 🙂
It doesn’t take any force at all Chris
Vortek’s spring tube is made of dodgier plastic than most washing up liquid bottles 🙂
Hi BB,
A little while back, because I am interested in a powerful yet quiet Airforce air gun, you recommended taking a Talon SS, and adding an 18 or 24 inch optional barrel, and a bloop tube silencer to it. That almost sounds like a Condor SS to me (18 inches barrel with a much improved baffle system). Yet the Condor SS is very loud. Is it just because it’s pushing a lot more air than the Talon SS with the bloop tube silencer? The Pyramyd AIR website says the Condor SS .177 uses a special tank valve spring. Would the Condor SS .177 be quieter than the Condor SS .22 because of this and because it pushes less air, and is pushing the pellet through a smaller baffle hole?
Thank you,
Doug
Doug,
The Talon SS uses a LOT less air than either the CondorSS or the Condor.
The .177 CondorSS valve is adjusted to prevent dumping the entire reservoir with one shot, but the amount of air it passes is a LOT more than the TalonSS is either caliber.
Think of this — a CondorSS gets 12-15 full-power shots per fill on high power. A TalonSS gets 40.
Also, to get the best accuracy from the CondorSS you have to adjust the power way back. The Talon SS with the 24-inch barrel can be run at full power — giving almost the exact same power as the adjusted CondorSS — about 44-45 foot-pounds.
B.B.
B.B.
Hi BB,
Wow, the Talon SS with the changes you suggested, with all of that power and all of those shots, sounds incredible! Why doesn’t Airforce just make that gun?
I know there are people who make their own bloop tube silencers. Do you know of a good step by step video for making your own? Do you know a person who makes these bloop tube silencers for others?
Thank you,
Doug
Doug,
Yes, the Talon SS is very hot when the barrel is increased. So is the basic Talon.
AirForce doesn’t make bloop tubes. I bought mine from someone who is no longer making them. You’ll just have to look on the internet to find who makes them today. Look for frame extenders.
B.B.
BB
Ain’t bloop tubes and frame extenders consider add on noise reducers?
Or that dreaded word.
Silencer’s.
GF1,
Yes, they are.
B.B.
I own a RWS 34 .22 cal. My problem is this the gun groups sporadically you can shoot a group of pellets and put 5 shots all in the same hole and the very next shot will drop any where between 1 and 6 inches. All the shots line up straight up ;and down not side to side but you never know when it is going to do it . I thought maybe if I let the barrel cool down for a while it would stay more consistent but that doesn’t seem to make a difference. Can some one help me please.
Also I had Umarex straighten the barrel and replace all the seals. (they did mess up my trigger but I can work around that) .
Thanks for any help you can give me .
Jerry
Jerry,
welcome to the blog. There are thousands of folks who monitor this blog that will be more than happy to help you but we need a bit more information. Not knowing your skill or educational level regarding air rifles, please give us a bit more information. What will help is what pellet or pellets did you try in this rifle and are currently using (2) how are you holding the rifle and (3) iron sights or scope?
In the meantime, this link provides a number of educational articles on pellet selection and the artillery hold: /articles
Looking forward to hearing back from you.
Jerry,
Welcome to the blog.
Your problem is not the rifle — it’s the scope. I bet you have the elevation cranked up way high because the gun is shooting so low, don’t you? This is typical of a Diana 34.
What you need is to get some kind of scope base that slants the scope down, so you can take out most of the elevation you have in the scope’s adjustments. Then you will get groups that don’t move. Those bases are called drooper bases. Here is one for the 34.
/product/utg-drooper-scope-rail-11mm-to-weaver-adapter-compensates-for-droop?a=4191
Believe me on this. I have seen this hundreds of times over the years and it always comes down to this.
B.B.
Thank you for your response. I do have a Drooper scope rail it came with the gun and I also use the artillery hold. I notice the biggest difference when I change pellets . I have always used RWS brand ( superdome,superpoint,hollow point, and Meisterkulgen. ) but when I started using Crossman premier thats when I saw the biggest change . I have just completely cleaned and oiled everything and I will see if there is any change. I will probably never use Crossman pellets again even though I do like how much harder they hit the target.
Thank you
Jerry
I just went and looked again at that scope base that you sent me information on . And it won’t fit my gun I have the T06 trigger and the information says it won’t fit that model.
Thanks
Jerry
Jerry,
Okay, Diana did change their bases so UTG bases would not fit their guns. But then they came out with a drooper mount that is supposed to work.
But you already have a drooper mount, so you don’t need another one.
B.B.
Would this one work for Jerry? He has a T06 trigger and the one you have linked specifically says it will not fit models with T06 triggers.
/product/utg-drooper-scope-rail-11mm-to-weaver-adapter-compensates-for-droop?a=4191
Reb,
Yes, I think that base will work. Jerry did not tell me that he had a T06 trigger when I recommended that scope base. If he had I wouldn’t have recommended it.
B.B.
Hey guys thanks for all the responses . I might try that base some time but I will half to get new scope rings also. I have noticed that the rifle is very particular about which pellet you feed it and it doesn’t seem to like the RWS superdomes or Crossman Premier pellets. But it gobbles up RWS super hollow points and super points and Meisterklugen. also for some strange reason it likes the Falcon domed pellet.
Jerry
The spring, according to Chambers is the same as the Diana 52 and 34
It’s also known as a “size 1”
B.B.,
Two questions. When you say synthetic bearings for the rear of the piston do you mean what tuners call buttons?
Also, does the shape of the cocking shoe require the use of the piston sleeve, or can the sleeve be left out by using a larger diameter mainspring and have the cocking shoe ride across the outside of the spring wire?
Curious, David H
David,
Yes, when I say bearings I am talking about buttons.
The piston shoe will still probably fall into the piston if the sleeve isn’t there. No matter how thick the spring wire is, the spaces between the coils when that are relaxed are still too large.
B.B.
Out of personal curiosity Tom, does the 45’s transfer port take from the centre of the piston but dogleg to the barrel, like the 34?
Filling the one on the 34 and drilling straight through from the barrel side gives about 10% extra efficiency, obviously the dogleg is less efficient even though it comes from the centre on one side.
Quite a popular mod over here, allows a lighter spring and a lightened piston while retaining the same output
Just curious if they were doing it that early.
Dom
Just curious.
What size are they drilling th hole out to?
WWhen B.B. told me that noone had patented a hemi designed airgun chamber my mind started racing and I got real creative with ways to get from “A-“Z”. I can’t remcall it all right now but I know where it came from 🙂
Reb
Yes if the hemispherical head design was used on the transfer port side of the cylinder and the piston head was shaped that way it would speed up the air flow.
That was the whole idea of the hemispherical head design was to create a venturi in the combustion chamber to speed up the air flow.
And then they got a bonus benefit from the design by accelerating the combustion of the air fuel ratio in the combustion chamber.
Dom,
Yes, the transfer port is cut on an angle. It is centered inside the compression chamber and has to be cut on an angle to reach the center of the barrel.
B.B.
Thanks Tom, I was intrigued because I don’t recall any of my 27’s being the same. Though I don’t own one to check any more.
In efficiency terms it’s daft as a brush, whether it’s because of the length or the corners is uncertain but filling it with JB Weld and drilling straight through from the barrel side transfer port gives an average of just over 10% extra muzzle energy with no other changes.
It’s on the Airguntech site, a Diana 280 (same as 34 powerplant) I think he’s reducing it from 3mm to 2.7mm…..but he’s optimising it for 12fpe, I think for the US power levels you would leave it the same.
Google his web pages, absorbing stuff.
Dom
Ok I missed filling the port and then drilling it out smaller.
That is a very good idea. So .120″ down to roughly .106″
The factory diameter of.120″ would be good for a .22 caliber gun.
And that .106″ diameter they reduced the port to would be good for a .177 caliber gun.
Opening the transfer port size to a bigger diameter than the pellet that gu n will shot would probably slow the velocity of the gun down.
That would create a flat wall the air would run into before the air hit the pellet.
Its just like port matching a intake or exhaust manifold to the head port on a car engine.
The problem with the 34 and 280 range on the UK is that they feel a bit “snappy” considering the modest power output, so he’s done a load of math and worked out the optimum TP size to stop the piston slamming the end of the cylinder at 12fpe pressures
Part of his experimentation was with straightening the port into a conventional position, and I think he was surprised at the gains….the dogleg was less efficient than imagined.
The spring is under a fair amount of preload as stock, bu the time he had finished he had a 3″ shorter, smaller diameter spring, smoothed it out and retained all the power….
I think most of it is irrelevant to the US market, but straightening the port seems a worthwhile mod, JB Weld time lol
Dom
So what do you think the biggest benefit came from?
The transfer port resizing or less piston speed by the shorter spring?
I know the answer.
Think of it this way. Everytime your pulling the trigger on the spring gun your basically shooting the piston. What if you had a open tube and no barrel and the piston could go fly across the room.
The heavier spring will make the piston fly farther and hit harder than a lighter spring.
Then now we take and put a wall in front of that tube with a hole in it. The air will compress the pellet will move the air pressure will release and the piston will hit.
Then what happens is the piston has the opposite rsction and pushes back on the spring.
If there is no area behind the spring when it fly’s back and hits the trigger assembly then the stock of the gun has to take that hit causing the backward bump.
That’s how in another way the FWB 300s and the Diana 54 Air King allows the shooter not to feel the recoil.
So spring preload is a big deal on a spring gun. Zero preload is good. And free play is better. That basically turns a normal spring gun into a gun with the sliding action like a 300s or a 54.
I think in this instance, the port reduction allowed a last moment air buffer at the sort of speeds the lighter spring supplied, it’s quite an involved article though and I haven’t read it for a while (though the guy who’s written it is short stroking my 52 this year)
🙂
Dom
That would cushion the forward motion or I guess as we call it in the airgun world. The forward recoil.
Now what about the reward recoil. That’s the curse that is part of spring air guns. We have two recoils if you will to worry about.
So now how we going to reduce that secondary recoil that bent the spring in the gun BB’s redoing.
Hold on I’m making a assumption. What did bend that spring? How can that be fixed so it don’t happen again?
The forwards recoil is caused as you say, by the sudden stop of the piston, the secondary rearward) is caused by the displacement of air and pellet and is less harsh…..well, until you get to the big bores.
Dom
But the rear recoil is still there in the seal bore spring guns.
And over on this side of the pond some of the magnum spring guns are making ridiculous recoil.
But people still buy them for some reason.
Suppose to say small bore guns.
I’m goin’ with a TP restrictorin my QB-36. I’ll let ya know how it turns out.
Reb
What benefits are you trying to achieve by reducing the port size?
Reports are of higher velocities and less deviation. but we’ll see!
It should slow down the whole firing cycle.
Let me rephrase that. I’m gonna go with a transfer port restrictor in my QB-36 and I’ll let ya know how it turns out 🙂
Reb
Ok you got it. Slowing down the firing cycle.
What’s that going to do when you feel the recoil?
I guess that depends on how much is left.
Reb
And that’s the thing.
Maybe some recoil is still ok.
If the gun has some bump and groups can be maintained then you shouldn’t need to worry about going any farther.
That’s the way the LGU shoots. It has a slight bump but the gun is as accurate as can be.
The main thing is to achieve accuracy. If it hits all the time consistently then I would leave the gun alone. Unless its a beast to cock and control.
When I was shooting my 392 offhand all the recoil caught me in the shoulder and induced followthrough. I sure miss shooting that gun!
Reb
392 recoil?
Yeah, I knew someone would tell me I was nuts! but that Grackle I caught in the breastplate @ 40 with that Crosman pointed had no idea what hit him either. Got some .22 pellets saved for when the youngun comes in. Wish I had a good froggin’ spot!
Maybe not much but considering the weight of the hammer it only makes sense that something would be detectable.
Reb
Come on now my 60 plus fpe .25 caliber Mrod has a bush to it when it shoots.
Its like one of those rocket launches. It starts out easy and gradually gets harder then its suddenly over. And it all in a 1/2 second time frame at the most.
But no way does it even think about knocking my shoulder off.
And its suppose to say it has a push not a bush.
I sometimes now don’t know if its me hitting wrong buttons or the phone.
Its probably me. :0
I think your sense of time may be off…
Lets see… assuming a 30gr pellet, 60 ft-lbs… 500fps
Over a 1 foot barrel (just for simple math) means an average velocity of 250fps (0fps to 500fps over a 1 foot distance).
So… all over in 1/250s <G>
Wulfraed
Darn I was off by a 1/4 second.
😉
Wulfraed
Man I just caught something.
Redo your math for the shot cycle time using 950 fps with a 31.02 grn. Barracuda.
950 x 950 x 31.02 devided by 450240=62 fpe.
My .25 cal. Mrod is not shooting at 500 fps.
Out of reply indents, so had to back up to the top.
Apparently it has been a while since I used the solver on the HP50g — I use the HP48sx (which I keep at work) more often and tried using its solver method…
Of course, I also simplified to a 1 foot real barrel — is the 20″ on the specification page the real barrel, or the shroud length…
My calculus is dead… 950fps exit velocity
v0 = 0fps
s0 = 0
v1 = 950fps
s1 = 20″ (1.6667′)
…
From: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/acceleration-velocity-d_1769.html
{3} 1.6667 = (0 + 950) t / 2
2 * 1.6667 = 950 t
3.3334 / 950 = t
(inverse) 1/285 sec
I’m having trouble believing the computation of acceleration… It’s coming out as 270750 f/sec/sec by both equations
The biggest problem with the break barrel Diana’s isn’t so much the size (though they seem to be a touch too big, Weihrauch made theirs smaller when they changed to synthetic seals) but the fact that the transfer port has two bends in it…..it picks up from the centre of the piston tube (very efficient) but then it redirects it up to tne barrel, through two corners….which seems to actually, not only lose the benefit of picking up from the centre but actually be quite a lot less efficient than just having it drilled Weihrauch style, straight through to the barrel.
I’m a big Diana fan, but sometimes they are very frustrating, droop, plastic triggers and daft TP designs….stop it Diana!
Dom
I like the Diana’s too.
But as you say why would they do the multiple changes in direction. It would definitely be easier to drill straight through.
Maybe they purposely wanted to slow the air flow down.
You know sometimes the Germans and Italians tend to out think theirselfs.
I’m Italian. I admit it I’m like that to. Sometimes it pays off to slow down. 🙂
Maybe they were trying to let the firing cycle finish before the pellet ever moved,which would be a good thing.
Well, all I can say is it’s a massive advantage in efficiency to undo their thinking, allowing lighter pistons and springs to acheive the same power output with less recoil and cocking effort.
To me it smacks slightly of the, totally correct, assumption that picking up from the centre of the piston is most efficient and then making it fit the break barrel design, and losing this advantage, and then some.
Maybe this wasn’t as pronounced an effect with the lower powered, leather sealed rifles of this era, but it’s certainly an advantage to straighten the port on a modern Diana.
I think the rearward bounce is not going to be felt by the shooter, or cause the barrel to move.
I think the forward slamming force of the piston hitting the compressed air “wall” at the end of the tube is what is perceived as recoil on a spring fun — and what causes the barrel to move while the pellet is still in the barrel.
No preload causes a lighter forward spring force — which may reduce piston slam/bounce. But it’s forward slam/bounce, not rearward bounce that the shooter perceives as recoil in a springer.
John
What about that opposite equal reaction thing?
Sorry but if you pay close attention when you shoot a spring gun there is a forward bump and a reward bump that is pretty well equal to the forward bump.
Reducing forward bump everybody talks about.
Reducing reward bump is another thing
And that is exactly what Diana and FWB did with their anti recoil slide action. It reduces rear recoil.
You have to have the forward bump first. If you have no forward bump you don’t have to worry about rearward bump. Right?
John
What you feel in spring guns is the rearward recoil . Think about it if it only recoiled forward you would never feel it on your shoulder.
http://vimeo.com/104382361
Here’s the double bump of a Diana 54 that is port restricted for the UK market, you should be able to see it hit the air buffer then the end of the cylinder….just an aside, but an interesting video, copy it into your browser
What causes the rearward recoil if it’s not conventional displacement recoil like a firearm?,
Dom
Excellent video. I had a 54 air king and I know exactly how they work.
But did any body notice the anti recoil device they have on the scope.
I had to watch the video over and over a few times when I noticed the scope movement in relation to the gun action.
And again way cool video.
I noticed that recoil absorber and I heard of someone creating a recoil absorbing mount but that was yesterday and I thought it was being marketed by Gamo.
Aah, the point is, your Airking wouldn’t behave in that fashion, the double bump recoil is peculiar to the UK model, they have restricted it’s power output by fitting a port restrictor in it (2mm) and you see from the video the effect this has, the piston halts first on the cushion of air, which now is trapped and then on the end of the cylinder, effectively giving two lots of recoil.
My 52 has the restrictor out, but has a longer cocking rod, giving a shorter stroke….keeping the power down to legal limits here but without that double recoil.
My point wasn’t to show how the Airking worked, but how manufacturers can spoil a gun by restricting it the wrong way.
Dom
And the more I watch it the more I see that air buffer area of the cycle and multiple equal and opposite reactions of the shot cycle.
The idea I have is to try to cheat physics to dampen that opposite reaction without having the slide system. In other words use the free play as the slide. And let the rubber washers and free space to dampen the hit instead of the spring being tight and transfering the energy.
I often think about having a form of valve there, like an exhaust valve, that can be tuned for duration and lift etc, or even a rotary disc valve a la a suzuki 2 stroke
The combustion engine and spring gun powerplants have a few things in common
Though I could see a value in deadening the piston strike, like one of those dead blow hammers with the pellets inside
Fact is, the insides of a TX200 would be pretty familiar to people in 1905, whereas looking under the bonnet of a BMW M3 would blow the mind of a Model T owner
So it’s cool you’re looking at stuff
Dom
I use to motocross the Suzuki RM 125 back in the mid 70’s and I know exactly what you mean about the valve.
And you talk about a adjustable transfer port. I wonder if that’s what they do with the AirArms 500 with the adjustable power selector.
And yes I did see that double hit the 54 made. So to small a transfer port hole can create to much forward cushion.
So that means like Reb said above also that it could be a timing issue also. The piston needs to move and then basically allow the pellet to move and the recoil that does happen needs to be controlled in a way that doesn’t affect the action of the gun.
That double bump that you see is because there is preload on the spring. When it makes its first forward hit it rebounds back to the spring and the spring pushes the piston forward again. And by then the pellet is probation out of the barrel and there will be know way to make the next cushion of air so the back and forth cycle would eventually stop. And of course that all happening in a matter of a second.
Now if you added free play to the spring when that piston goes forward and hits the cushion of air and stops the piston rebounds back there is no spring pressure so that double bump is eliminated.
And that is why I also stack a rubber washer then a flat steel washer and then the same one more time. That goes down inside the piston before the spring.
So now if for some reason the spring free play doesn’t stop the spring and sleeves and top hat and they move forward the washer stack will asorb the forward movement.
That’s the tune I have on my TX and I use the Vortek 12 fpe tune kit then add my washers and test assemble to see how much of the spring needs cut to make free play.
5 th paragraph down should say probably not probation.
Initial recoil would be the mass of the piston and moving part of the main spring. Visualize somehow holding the piston in place and firing — the rest of the gun will be shoved to the rear (“normal gun” recoil). This recoil begins before the pellet even starts to move. The second “recoil” is from the piston coming to a stop at the end of the cycle, and that is basically the same as if one had hit the entire action from behind with a hammer (it’s not smooth push, but an impact jar).
The m54 tends to be a scope killer as that sliding action means both recoil impulses are working against less mass. Depending on the timing, a scope might get hit with up to three impulses: Initial smooth “normal” recoil (no scope should take damage from that), and a sharp impulse when the action finally does hit the rear stop (scope body and innards moving to the rear at maximum recoil speed, no the scope body suddenly stops but the innards may keep moving — classic scopes had the innards held be spring tension, which means the innards could jump around now), and a sharp impulse when the piston bottoms out at the end of the stroke (same effect on a scope as it not only stops the rearward motion but might have enough mass to “bounce” the action itself forward).
I think I’ve read a site that suggests tuning an m54 recoil by adjusting/modifying the spring/ball detent on the slide rail. Too much tension would tend to lock the action, making the m54 behave like an m52. Too little and the action will slide on the lightest excuse, bumping the stock end point… Just right and you may have the piston bottom out just as the action reaches the full back position stopping the slide before it transfers energy to the stock (though combining all to affect a scope).
Wulfraed read what I just wrote.
What you explained is right but I want to stress the point that the second time the piston moves forward in the shot cycle is because of spring preload pressure.
If a spring gun is set up with zero preload or even with freeplay you reduce the posabilties of having that second forward movement of the piston.
And the spring free play helps reduce the posabilties of the felt rearward recoil to the shooter. The free play in the spring acts as that dead space area like the slide action of the 54.
Dom
A very revealing video showing the “double recoil” effect caused by changing the air port in order to bring the pellet velocity below the 12fb British limit. As I watched it for the 3rd time, I noticed the scope mount stays put, but the rod that connects the rings is recoiling with the shot as well. Are the rings moving in this manner in order to reduce scope destruction the Diana 54 has apparently garnered a reputation for? I also noticed that after the shot was taken, the rings seem to revert back to they’re original position. (i.e. the position before the shot is taken.) Assuming you are familiar with this particular mount, is Bullseye the name of the company who makes these mounts, and how durable are they? Also, do they have any built in compensation to negate the effects of barrel droop? A condition German air rifles seem famous for.
Ciao
Titus
They don’t suggest any droop compensation, however it’s a Diana product and they are famously shy about admitting faults, I hope the new controlling company gets over the rather overly conservative mindset of the old firm in this regard and some others I have mentioned.
The mount is called the Diana Bullseye I think, it was shown on their stand at Nuremburg
If you look closely at the rear end of the mount “tube”, you can see the top edge of spring coils. {based on other images, there are two guide rods, and a spring rod in between them}
It likely allows the scope to continue moving to the rear (the direction scopes are designed to handle the best) as the base/action shudders forward on piston impact.
Google “ZR Bullseye”
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diana-airguns.de%2Ffileadmin%2Fpdf%2Fkatalog%2FBULLSEYE_eng.pdf&ei=W_nXVP-gNIOTyQTA5oC4Aw&usg=AFQjCNHHiNUoZV4dFbfQRC0405P9ucQNFw&bvm=bv.85464276,d.aWw
http://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/mount-diana-bullseye-zr-30mm-high-dovetail.html
BB,
Is the second washer shown a belville washer?
Ton,
No.
B.B.
how is the leather piston seal attached to the spring piston?
Utkarsh,
The seal seems to be held in by a peening on the side of the piston, on the side where the head is located. Some people call it a blind rivet, but it looks like the material is just peened to me.
In the next report I will show it and explain how I believe it works. To remove the piston head it looks like this peening has to be drilled out and the entire head pulled off the piston body. Then to replace the head, a screw would have to be fitted.
B.B.
Well thank you very much
Just so that you no my next comment on the bronco(another one , imean the second comment on the first comment ) is at the bottom of the comment section in part 4 of the optional target sights with the bronco so that you dont have to go deep
This is utkarsh by the way
The admonition to be sure you can put it back together again kind of reminds me of the time, in the camera store, when one of my (recognized non) customers walked in, carefully cradling a shoebox, complete with the rattling and rolling sound effects of a disassembled…something. “Too big for a Rolex, too small for a Rolls-Royce Merlin, not enough loose ball-bearings for the turret of a Panther Ausf G, must be a meticulously disassembled Nikon,” thinks I…what with being a camera store and all.
Turns out I’m wrong, at least about the “meticulous” part anyway.
It’s a Miranda, disassembled with a variety of vise-grips, inappropriate (metric screws) fractional screwdrivers, and at least some hammer work.
Now this guy is a well known character, a “non-customer” since I’m not even sure he has a wallet, since I’ve never seen it or him take anything out of it, at least not to give me anything from it.
He’s also blessed with a posible somewhat vestigial form of Asperger’s or perhaps “borderline personality disorder” which allows clear enough communication with other humans, but somewhat limited ability to respond to constructive feedback.
In other words, he’s a major pain-in-the-patootie.
Initially, I say, “What kind of camera is that?”
He says, “I don’t see how that’s any of your business!”
Long silence.
“Okay,” says I, finally, “What seems to be the problem?”
“It doesn’t work anymore.”
Eyes shift to the very loose collection of buggered screws and stripped threads.
Another long silence.
Finally, I say, “What happened to it?”
“Left it out on the picnic table inna backyard overnight and forgot about it and then the rain…”
“You mean the rain last week?
“No, the one before that. They should make them more durable like,” he snaps.
“And so you took it all the way apart?”
“I figure if I can get a automatic transmission back together, one of these shouldn’t be too hard,” he says.
“How long you been working on the tranny?
“1962. It’s coming along,”
I could see how this one was going to go. For some reason the ones with the endless unrewarding problems always seem to want to make it your endless unrewarding problem. But I learned a creative technique to deal with it.
“You should take this direct to our Corporate repair facility,” I said. They have all the tools for the camera, and if you’re firm and persistant, the head guy can probably help you with the transmission too. But you’ve got to be persistant with him.”
About a year later, I ran into my most deadly competetor in the camera store business, someone who I’d always considered in “respected contention.” He said, “I finally figured out who sent that guy to my “Coporate” office. It was you, wasn’t it?”
Naturally, I denied everything. Everything.
As we parted, I casually said, “Oh, by the way, how’s the transmission?
“It’s coming along.”
David,
I see 500+ emails each day. I seldom read most of them all the way through. But this one deserves a spot on my wall.
Good job!
And, by the way — how is that transmission?
B.B.
Thanks, but it turns out Power-Glides only had two speeds anyway.
Shoulda’ got the book.
My father in law was a mechanic before getting his degree in education and teaching auto mechanics in High School. He loves to tell the story of, I believe it concerned this transmission that there was a bolt put in the tranny’s valve assembly to only allow it to have two speeds. Removing the bolt made it into a 3 speed and you didn’t have to spend extra money for the optional three speed transmission. I think. Your story was great – you should tell it on stage.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred
That’s something I never heard but I never messed with the powerglides I always did the turbo 350 and 400’s.
I do know they offered different 1st gear ratios you could put in them. I guess one way to find out is if they had a place in the tranny for the 3rd gear clutch packs.
Interesting.
Fred DPRONJ and Gunfun
No such beast ever existed as you either had two clutch pack and one planetary set in the power glide or three clutch pack and two planetary sets in a three speed turbo hydramatic350 or 400 from GM. The power glide was in use from the late 50s to the mid sixties when GM came out with the 3 speed turbo hydramatics. The corvette was the first to get a power glide in an aluminum case as the first power glides had cast iron cases and weighed about 250 pounds. I know as I rebuilt many in 55 to 58 chevys..
So at least in GM cars there was never any trans that had three speeds but was modified to only use two speeds and could be turned into a three speed by removing a bolt from the valve body.
I started out in an independent shop and we work on anything that had four wheels and I know of no trans that had three gears but only used two, the power glide di come with different first gear ratios depending on if it was behind a six cylinder or a V8 as the V8 had more torque so it could run a taller ratio and still have acceptable acceleration. I remember working on some early SS impalas that you could get 65 to 70 in first gear.
BD
BD,
I can only repeat what my father-in-law told me. I’ll ask again. Perhaps I got his story wrong or the facts wrong but he definitely said this is what he did to many a fellow teacher’s car’s transmission in the 60’s when he was teaching shop at a NYC vocational high school.
On the other hand, its’ not particularly important.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred DPRONJ
If there was in fact a trans like that I would be very interested in knowing what it was because in 45 years as a GM master certified technician I have never come across one and as I said it would have to have had extra parts in it in order to have three different gear ratios so please ask him as I would like to know what it fit and who made it.
He may have been playing a joke on you also as we used to joke with some customers that brought their cars in for noises and told them that they had a loose muffler bearing which of course there is no such thing but it would get a laugh out of them and lighten up their mood when it was time to give them their repair bill.
BD
Nice round of dirty-pool!
Checking out gun safes today, I’ve got 10 long arm airguns and a Rem. 550-1 and my brother’s got 4 firearms.Of course the collections will grow but if I get one and put it in his bedroom I’m sure he’ll eventually miss having one when I find a decent place for mine, and it’ll keep them locked up for when Daddy’s not home. No electronic lock or fire protection.I’m on a budget! anybody got some input?
Depends on what you are trying to do. If it’s to prevent minors from playing with the firearms, just a mechanical trigger lock should do. Try to go to a box store and buy a bunch of locks that are all keyed the same. Don’t leave the keys around where the children can get at them.
If it’s fire and flood you also want to protect your collection from, I think nothing but a fire rated safe will do. Of course, there’s always “used” equipment if you are trying to save money and who isn’t?
Fred DPRoNJ
Thanks Fred!
I’ll be looking at the scratch&dent specials first but just trying to get a feel for how much room is enough. It’ll be a couple months before I’ll have enough to buy one without a payment plan so I’ve got some time to look around. If I lived in a trailer by the river I’d be cocerned about fire& water damage but I’m high & dry here.
I can imagine a swollen river with a gun safe bobbing up& down with ole Huck in hot pursuit.
A few suggestions on the safe;
Don’t forget to bolt it to the wall and/or floor. Never underestimate the persistence of the young and stupid. The people you’re trying to protect your stuff from will back a truck up, loop a chain around and try and pull it through the wall or out the door. Many years ago an acquaintance of mine came home to find his safe wedged halfway up the basement stairs where the truck and chain thing had been tried. The interesting thing was a fair amount of blood on the stairs and in the vicinity. Whatever had happened, one hopes the guy went looking for another line of work as he wasn’t much good at that one.
I recommend a combination lock myself, at least on the safe door. I suppose it’s possible for one to mis-lay the part of of ones brain the combination is on, but I’ve always thought a key always had a certain inevitability to either become lost or misappropriated.
Unless… One of the best and most practical purchases I ever made was ten keyed-alike small masterlocks. After more than 20 years, I still have most of them and I know where the rest are. Since the each came with two keys, it’s proven mighty darn handy to have 19 spare keys, from time to time.
And speaking of those padlocks, I personally keep whatever is in the safe with one of the masterlocks through the trigger guard obstructing the trigger…or whatever else it may take to double-lock the situation. Remember, most states now have laws making you responsible for misuse of one of your weapons by the dumbell brother-in-law, your grand-daughter’s even dumber boy-friend who can’t resist showing off after you forgot the safe was open, or the irresponsible child. I know because I have experience in all of those fields…mostly because at various times, I’ve a member of each of those categories.
There’s one other product that I have no personal experience with yet, but sounds highly useful in the event of fire. There’s quite a bit of information on the Internet of just how hideous smoke damage is, even if there’s no direct contact with flame. The stuff is named “Palusol” basically is described as an door seal product that expands when the temperature exceeds 212 degrees and seals the door against water and corrosive smoke damage. That’s about all I know about it just yet but bears some research.
Yeah!
The last thing I wanna do is put ’em all in one place for someone else’s ease of loading.
~Youth & vigor will always be overcome by old age & treachery~
103 David
All very good info on protecting your guns and what ever other valuables you would like to keep out of the hands of others but I am sorry in that I know of no padlock made to this day that a six foot pair of bolt cutters will not cut right thru like butter as I have had some of the biggest master locks on items I owned and in moves misplaced the keys to them and have a six foot pair of bolt cutters that made quick work of those locks. In this day and age we also now have the jaws of life that there is not much that they cannot cut right thru so all a gun safe is for is to keep the honest people honest as if some one want what you have in the safe and they are somewhat intelligent they will get it no matter what.
I read a book wrote by a professional motorcycle thief that took ten years to be caught by the law. He made a statement that the only way you could keep him form stealing your motorcycle was to sleep with it. In the ten years before he was caught he had stolen over 5000 bikes and they were protected by anything from chains attached to cemented plates in the garage floors and the brake disc locks to locked in trailers or shops with video surveillance and security systems. He would case the intended target to learn there habits so he could use there schedule to his advantage and he clearly stated that there was no chain, cable or any form of attached type of security item that bolt cutters would not go right thru. The brake disc locks took nothing more than a crow bar to pry open and fall right off, spray paint renders surveillance cameras useless, ADT or other home security systems only work with power to the system so if necessary he would cut the power meter security lock off the meter and pull the whole meter right out of the box and if it was in a garage or shop he just stole a truck of van and drove right thru the doors so if someone wants what you have bad enough you are not going to stop them unless you sleep with it no matter what you do. I understand that very well and cannot stop them from stealing from me when I am not home but if you are brazen enough to try it with me home you had better be very well prepared and armed as I will shoot to kill without hesitation and deal with the law later. I am lucky enough to live in a very pro gun state that has open carry, concealed carry and stand your ground/castle doctrine laws in place. So if I feel my family’s life is in danger you will be dead.
BD
Heh… Don’t remind me…
I have an old Stack-On unit that I wouldn’t even call a “safe”… Piano-wire hinge and three flat bars for locking bolts — top, bottom, and side opposite the hinge; and made out of heavy toolbox sheet metal.
And overloaded… An HK-91 basically takes up three slots as it has to be placed “sideways” to clear the front sight — so the barrel is in one slot, the sights block a slot, and the pistol grip blocks another; and hope whatever you do put next to it can be sloped out into the cabinet as the pistol grip really wants to take a fourth slot
http://www.hkpro.com/image/hk91a2_3.jpg
Then add in rifles with scopes — which requires a steep lean to clear, such that the stocks are bumping… And put a Diana m54 into the mix with a .30 M1 carbine — both have cocking levers/knobs making for a snug fit without banging a neighbor.
My Condor is being mistreated — in a plastic foam lined carrying case in the closet. I’ve moved my USST Daisy 953 into my upstairs closet to make room for the (undesirable years) Winchester m64 lever action my father dumped on me (with a few rust spots because he kept it in a padded soft carrying case for decades)… And I’m still expecting a phone call from Cabelas about a Marlin 1894 lever action they are supposed to be shipping from a distribution center. Suspect it will take the space of the M1 carbine.
I think I’m looking at $1400 for a safe that would hold the long guns, and maybe even hold the pistols (if not in the nightstand, they are in a Stack-On 2-shelf unit that bolted to the top of the afore-mentioned cabinet)
BB, I will be ordering some H&N Field Target Trophy .22 Cal pellets. What head size would you suggest for my Diana 52?
Thanks!
Mike
Mike,
I haven’t tested the 52 with different head sizes, but I would get some of the bigger ones, just for fun.
B.B.
Thanks BB, I’ll go that route.
Mike
Wulfraed,
It sounds like you could use another one! OK so it sounds like I’m gonna need to spend over a grand to even come close. However if my plan goes the way I’m expecting it to all the firearms will be in a safe place and he’ll miss that once it’s gone so maybe one to fit all his and what the boys have and he’ll wanna keep it. Then I get the one I want when I’ve gotta good place for it.
Thanks for your input!
Reb
Depends on the protection level you need… Cabela’s lists a Stack-On “ready to assemble” 8-gun unit for ~$150, and a side-by-side 2-door that supposedly holds 16 guns on one side with shelves on the other (or remove shelves for another 15 guns?) for $570.
A real safe (Cannon-Scout) with a fire rating is $900 for a 14 gun unit, and $1000 for a 24 gun models (for some reason they also have a power outlet, USB charger, and Ethernet RJ-45).
To give a difference, the 14 gun Cannon weighs in at 350lbs, while the side-by-side Stack-On is just 152lbs… A big difference in steel thickness there…
For an example of tight…
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Stack-On-Gun-Security-Cabinet/1233301.uts?productVariantId=2909502&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=42-27036481-2&WT.tsrc=CSE&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=03171136&rid=20
The only obvious scope is bolt-action behind the left most shotgun (which is, itself, behind some slim rifle almost lost in the door lip. (Note: that one is on a page labeled “gun cabinets”, not “gun safes”).
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Home-Cabin/Furniture/Gun-Safes|/pc/104798880/c/104725080/sc/104369580/Winchester174-24-Gun-Safe/1867127.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fgun-safes%2F_%2FN-1101274%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104369580%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BBRprd1233301&WTz_l=SBC%3BBRprd1233301%3Bcat104369580
That’s a cheap ($$$) safe, at only $650 (not counting shipping of course)… Supposed to hold 24 guns, but if you pick the “open” image, it looks cluttered with only 5 or 6.
And that post was supposed to be a response to GF1…
Reb
Like Wulfraed said. They get tight quick.
When you get a safe figure that on using to places for one gun if you don’t want them bumping.
If it says it holds 8 guns you will probably only get 4 guns with scopes on the guns in the safe.
I don’t like my guns bumping each other.
Been eyeballin’ the Centerpoint 4-16×40 with AO for some time now and finally gave in today whilst picking up prescriptions. Called my brother to see if he wants to help put it on my AM77/Tasco 4×32.Which is the gun I was hitting grackles @80yds,Even though it was outta steam way out there I’m thinking it deserves something flexible in range. Hope it works out well! $75 & change. Time to put the reading glasses on and head for the library!
BB, I need a little help… I just purchased a Browning/Umarex Buck Mark URX .177 pistol. I have just put the first few rounds through it, and the pistol shoots too far left! I have adjusted the rear sight all the way to the right side, and it still shoots left. If I center my sights on the bullseye, it will hit the border of a typical pistol target at 12m.
I don’t know if I am shooting it incorrectly (I even tried some shots left-handed, but it continues to shoot left), or if I got a defective gun. I can see a screw on the base of the front sight, but it does not seem to adjust anything.
Is there a cure to this behaviour?
Fred,
Not B.B. but as you look from the rear of the gun does it look like it’s pointing left. Could it have been bent during shipping?
Reb
Fred,
If you loosen the screw on the front sight can you move it sideways?
Reb, looking down the barrel, it seems perfectly aligned. The front sight screw does not move anything, I actually don’t know what it’s good for.
I am considering modifying the front sight profile, removing a little bit from one side with a fine file, or gluing a bead slightly to the left, so as to correct the sight picture, but both changes would be definitive.
I know I am asking a lot from a cheap gun, but it is shooting to nicely that it’s a shame not to try to bring those groups to the center of the target.
It’s a shame they didn’t get that one right.Does it at least have a usable dovetail? That’s what turned me off the last plastic spring pistol B.B. reviewed even though it looked usable he said it wasn’t.
I don’t consider it too much to ask a manufacturer to sell me a gun that’s on paper! How does the breech seal look?
Fred_BR,
I don’t see a simple fix to this problem. One thing you can do is build up the front sight on the same side where the pellets are going. On yours, build it up on the left. That makes a wider front blade, and you will have to move the gun to the right to center it. It won’t help much, but maybe it’s enough.
B.B.
BB, my guess is that such a mod is really necessary, if I want to keep shooting it with iron sights, like I do most of my pistols and revolvers. But, in this case, following Reb’s comment on the dovetail, I used the top rail to mount a red dot sight, which allowed me to sight in properly. It does seem to like it, cause it is shooting very tight groups. It is just no longer a “holster gun”, but that actually has never been my intent with it.
For the moment being, I think I will keep the red dot on it.
BB
Just thought I would let you know. I tryed out your mono-pod hold by bracing with your foot and opposite leg while sitting.
It works great! I been outside shooting for a few hours and remembered I wanted to try it with my bi-pod and the two legs together like a mono-pod. Absalutly steady as a rock. I love it.
And got to get back to biusness. Shoot’n and BBQ’n. Its 65 degrees here today. And tomorrow also. So its like spring time for us in these parts.
Anyway just wanted say I like the mono-pod hold.
Gunfunn1,
Been anxious to try the mono-pod hold myself. I did try it with a pool stick a while back and it was rock steady. Been looking into a home made one today. Found a “super sweet” painting roller handle. It’s got the standard screw end on it. Just need to figure out what to put on it. Should end up around 25$ when all said and done. Wally World has one for 50$ and I believe the UTG was around 75$. Just trying to save some dough, but won’t sacrifice function or quality. Still got a chrony and other goodies to get.
Also got some “duct seal” today. 1# worth. 3$ at Lowe’s. I’ll be real surprised if a 1# ball will stop a TX .22. If not, will buy more. How big of a ball is needed, if you have ever tried it?
65 degrees, shooting and BBQ,…….can it get any better than that? I think not.
Chris, USA
Ask Buldawg about my shooting stop.
Ok I tell how I do it. I take three two by fours 6 inches long. Then I take and tape them together with duct tape. Then I put a old phone book on it. Then I duck tape the phonebook to the two by fours. You won’t believe how long that will last. You just keep taping back over it. Oh and I use white copy paper with some black dots on from a paint pen.
And I used my bipod I got at Rural King for I believe 30 something dollars. But it was on sale.
And once I got the leg height set for me sitting on my bucket and resting my elbows on my kegs it was very easy to position the stick to get on target. Much more stable than using the bi-pod with the legs open in the traditional way. I will for sure use BB’s method while sitting from now in.
Suppose to say rest my elbows on my legs not kegs.
Thunderstruck?
Gunfunn1,
I got the stop stuff down and can make whatever I need at work. 2×4’s and phone book sounds good. My “buffer” is blown out and the pellets reg. hit the .090 steel stop. Starting to see what “splatology” is all about! 🙂
Gunfunn1,
Also meant to say,…I got the duct seal for penetration and break up/ deformation data based on pellet type and range. Trying to do my “homework”.
Chris, USA
Oh ok duct tape splatology.
Got it now.
And nothing like a winter time BBQ.
🙂
Kinda cool to see where the friction builds up on projectiles and awesome where you can tell some vaporized!
And its suppose to be three 2×4’s 9″ long not 6″. Got to make them big enough so the copy paper can get taped on.
Chris,
Enjoy your BBQ! I’d say about 5″ or a little bigger than a softball will stop your TX rounds.Earmark the money or order that Chrony. Your getting too advanced not to have one. There are a couple others that still need to take that plunge but I’m glad I’ve got mine @$100 it’s less money than a gun and can help you learn a lot about your guns. I think both Buldawg & I learned we didn’t get what we expected outta our 753/853/953 mods.And I’ve got an idea of what I can take with whichever gun I want.
Reb,
Thanks for the input on the 5″ ball. That sounds like about 4~5#,…not the 1# I got.
Yes,..I do want a chrony. That darn Gunfunn1 guy keeps talking about all those “mods” all the time. “Hack and wack”,..and end up with a better gun. We got some really smart, cutting edge guys here. Great stuff above on all that, but I really need to go back and read it again.
“Advanced” you say?,…..well, I would not say that at all. Just got 300 shots on the TX and still only get a 10mm.~15mm. group @ 41′ on a consistant basis. Still a lot to learn.
And there will always be more to learn but a Chrony is a major tool and necessary to verify improvements’ viability.
Chris, USA
I was one of those kids that had a jar of screws also.
And I just always feel something can be made to work better. Sometimes that’s a good thing. Sometimes not.
And the biggest thing is I enjoy doing that kind of stuff.
Reb,
Replied, but it did not post. I’ll wait a while.
Are you getting spammed too? I thought it was mainly me but I blew a gasket online when I had an episode so I guess I’m lucky to be here.
Reb,
No spam, but watch those “gaskets”,…take it easy. It ain’t worth getting all worked up. And thanks for the 5″ ball info. Sounds like I’ll need a bit more duct seal.
Yeah I just checked the survival rates for hemorrhagic stroke and 40% puts me on the lucky side for that one! But life is a whole lot harder now and keeping the bull penned up is even more difficult.
Reb
I seen different things go on throughout time and the best I can say is no matter what situation your in try to enjoy what you like to do.
Chris, go ahead and get the chrony, you know you need one, you can spend a lot more or a lot less but this is a very sweet one. /product/competition-electronics-prochrono-digital-chronograph?a=4015 i find it works well in a lot of different lighting conditions, works well under just a 60 watt halogen light.
Edith: this may be in your realm (compare the quoted text to the actual item)
OUCH…
/product/competition-electronics-digital-remote-fits-prochrono-chronographs?a=4016
The remote head costs practically as much as the chronograph it goes with… And the bottom of the description is erroneous — this control head only brings the buttons to the user
You need to be connected to a laptop serial port (well, these days, via a $20 USB-serial connector) running a terminal program, OR to an old HP thermal printer (which I do have, I think… Considering my HP41cx, HP28 [defunct], HP48sx, and HP50g all have IR printer capability I do have one edition of the printer, maybe not the specified revision though)
OR via their direct USB accessory — but you get a dedicated control/display program, which could be nice. I should check what is available for my Beta Master model.
That’s why I got the Alpha Master by Shooting Chrony. It came with 20′ cord for the remote and has a port for printer expansion. But when they tell me I need to take a laptop outside it means another trip to me, and a laptop. Still gotta lotta stuff to learn about what mine’s capable of but I was getting readings about 2 mins after assembly.
Baron Wulfraed,
Thats why I think I will going with the Shooting Chrony Alpha Master. The remote read out feature only makes sense. I would think that they would all have remote read outs.
Buldawg got a shorter cord for his and that’s one drawback. Having all that cord to come undone but I just keep my extra bundled with a rubberband for now. The part that I like is you reallygotta be trying if you hit your readout.
Wulfraed,
You’re right. Not sure where the description came from, as there’s a real clear description on the mfr’s site. I rewrote the description with a lot more detail I got from ProChrono’s web page. It should refresh/update on Pyramyd Air’s site some time this afternoon.
Thanks!
Edith
GF1,
Thanks for the feedback.
I know it works well, because I have been using it a lot since I wrote about it.
B.B.
BB
No problem. Thanks.
A bit of a tip, for anyone interested….
I have been looking for a “micro-oiler” bottle. Check out the local “vape” shop. For those not familiar with that term, they are the “e-cigs”. The shops are everywhere. At any rate, I got 2 bottles that have a needle like metal tip that hold about 1oz. Perfect for “micro-oiling. 2$ each.
BB,
I just received word from Tony McDaniel of TMac’s Airgun Service that The Third Annual North Carolina Airgun Show will be held in Hickory, NC on October 16-17. I believe they are taking reservations for tables now.
http://tmacsairgunservice.com/
Do you think Pyramyd AIR would be interested in having a page on their site listing upcoming airgun related events such as this?
RR,
Thanks for this.
PA DOES have a page for this. I found it by accident the other day — can’t find it again. They doesn’t even update it for their next PA Cup, so I guess it’s dormant.
B.B.
Maybe with a little prodding from you and Edith, they may give it a little more attention.
RR,
I’ll let you know if there’s a current page with updated shows.
Edith
The Walking Dead on tonite y’all
I really enjoyed reading this blog… I just found it the other day, as I was curious about the old model 45, which I have… a pawnshop find that I found about 20 years ago.
Loved subscribing to your’s & Edith’s Airgun Letter… I have all the issues and the Revues too.
I started exploring the local pawnshops back in the mid 1990’s, looking for airgun treasures… I got to be a regular at the local country one that was close to home, establishing a reputation as an “airgun lover” by buying a Sheridan Blue Streak, a Silver Streak, and a Crosman 1400.
I got to know the pawnshop owner some… he played in a band, and I play harmonica, so I was also looking for old tube amplifiers… and AIRGUNS !
One day he told me that someone pawned a FWB124D, and was making payments on it… he brought it out from the back room to show me, and of course my eyes lit up !
Well a couple of months later, he called me while I was at work, to tell me that the guy stopped making his payments, and asked if I was interested in the FWB124D… of course I said “Heck yeah” and I left early from work to go get it.
I stopped there regularly to see what else might have shown up, and to talk with him… one day the Diana Model 45 showed up, and of course I bought it.
Well that pawnshop changed hands, but is still around, but treasures like the ones that I acquired are few and far between… I probably own too many airguns anyways, if there is such a thing… but I really miss those days !
Thanks Tom for all your efforts !
Ken H in OH (AirMojo)