by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Air Venturi M8 is very much like the Bronco.
This report covers:
- Velocity
- Conclusions
- Cocking effort
- Trigger pull
- Firing behavior
- Evaluation so far
Today we become more familiar with the Tech Force M8 rifle. In Part One I mentioned that the powerplant on this gun is very similar to the powerplant on the Air Venturi Bronco that has been discontinued. In fact I believe it is identical. The one thing that differentiates Air Venturi and Tech Force spring rifles from Mendozas is we made them not drill a hole on the left side of the spring tube for oiling the piston seal. Low-order detonations were the way Mendoza rifles achieved their velocities, but we didn’t want that.
Several readers who already have this gun can confirm that the M8 is smooth-shooting and easy to cock. Reader Bulldawg mentioned how surprised he was at the beauty of the M8 stock. I must agree. You can see it in the photo above,and that seems to be an accurate representation. The shape is pleasing and Mendoza seems to have used some beech wood with more figure than you usually see. The stock on my test rifle is as pretty as walnut.
Velocity
Today we learn just how close in performance the M8 is to the Bronco. Before I tested it I guessed it would be very close. And, for the record, here are the velocities of both guns .
Bronco
Pellet………………………..Vel. Avg……………….Vel. Range……………..Spread
Hobby ……………………….558 f.p.s. ……………..538-566 f.p.s.……………..28 f.p.s.
Gamo Match…………………537 f.p.s………………534-541 f.p.s………………..7 f.p.s.
Crosman Premier 7.9……….528 f.p.s………………526-533 f.p.s………………..7 f.p.s.
Let’s look at these numbers for a moment. They are in the low to mid 500 f.p.s. range for three pellets that weigh less than 8 grains. More importantly, the spreads for two of the pellets are tight. Only the Hobby is large. If these two rifles are as alike as I think, we should see similar numbers from this M8. Let’s see what the number are right now.
Tech Force M8
Pellet………………………..Vel. Avg………………. Vel. Range…………….Spread
Hobby……………………….573f.p.s……………….548-586 f.p.s………………38 f.p.s.
Gamo Match………………..575 f.p.s……………….563-585 f.p.s………………22 f.p.s.
Crosman Premier 7.9………544 f.p.s………………532-555 f.p.s……………….23 f.p.s.
Conclusions
So, the M8 is very close to the Bronco. Close enough to say the powerplants are identical. The M8 is burning some oil, which is why the spreads are larger for each pellet, but notice the relationships remain the same. The Premiers have a much greater velocity spread than either of the other two pellets, and their spreads are very close.
Why is the Gamo Match pellet so much faster? It’s entirely possible that I tested the Bronco wi9th a Gamo Match of a different weight. I don’t know.
One final note — the Premiers loaded with much greater resistance than the other two pellets. Somehow that has to factor into the greater velocity spread for that pellet.
Cocking effort
The Bronco I tested (and also bought) cocks with 19 lbs. of effort. The M8 I am testing cocks with 18 lbs. There is more than that amount of variation within one specific model, so I am now positive these guns share the same powerplant.
Trigger pull
As you know, the M8 has a 2-stage trigger. And it has 2 blades, as well. The first blade can be thought of as stage one. When it comes back even with the second blade, you have arrived at stage two and the gun is ready to fire. Stage 2 has no discernible creep, though I cannot call it glass-rod crisp, either. When I used the trigger-pull gauge I could feel a slight hint of creep before the release, but my finger could not detect it. I have a sensitive trigger finger that is used to 18-oz. (500-gram) triggers on 10-meter pistols, so I doubt that one shooter in a hundred will ever feel any creep in this trigger.
The trigger broke at an average 1 lb. 12 oz. It’s not adjustable, but this is as light as any sporting airgun trigger should ever be.
The ambidextrous safety is automatic. It comes on when the rifle is cocked and is easy to push off with the thumb.
Firing behavior
The M8 is as calm as a non-buttoned piston ever gets. Compared to most other spring guns today, it is superior.
Evaluation so far
So far the Tech Force M8 appears to be a Bronco without sights but with a better stock. Those of you that have them can talk about them all you like — don’t wait for me. Accuracy comes next and I think I’ll start at 10 meters.
Been knocked off line for awhile do to poor support! Been on borrowed computer and trying to keep up! Yes! I like the M8! I have a Chinese Beeman RS which is a very surprising rifle! It also looks just like the M8! In fact I have two! One still in the box! I compare this Beeman RS almost as accurate as my Diana 24! The best air rifle I have ever had! Still even better than those Beeman air rifle’s I got in the early 70’s and late 1979! I still want to see accuracy on the M8! Thank you for these reports! I have no words for what you have experienced! Semper fi!
PS——I know the trigger and safety is different on M8! Just looking at photo and comparing a person may not know the difference? I like the trigger assembly on the M8!! Thank you! Semper fi!
Maybe I’m measuring the barrel length incorrectly but on my M8 the barrel is 14″ long as measured from the breech end of the barrel where you insert your pellet and the muzzle end where the rifling stops just in front of where the muzzle brake begins. Is this the actual barrel length or am I just measuring incorrectly?
JPY,
I haven’t measured mine, but it should be identical to the barrel in a Bronco. It’s a thin tube, held inside the barrel jacket by two roll pins on the underside of the breech.
B.B.
I sent a product question to Pyramid Air because I wasn’t quite sure the 14″ barrel measurement I found was correct. Stacey (tech@airventuri.com) replied back that they also measured the barrel at 14″ and the product page has been updated accordingly: /product/tech-force-m8-air-rifle?m=3220
My M8 says made in Mexico.
The trigger on mine is excellent but not the same design as the Savage accu-trigger. The M8 looks like it has 2 separate triggers. One on the left and in front. The second stage on the right and back. The accu-trigger actually has a slot in the middle of the 2nd stage trigger with the first stage placed in the middle of the slot and sticking forward. But both triggers act like a long first stage then you feel pressure and your on the 2nd stage. Then it just takes a hint of pressure and the shot goes off.
The wood is like what you say BB. Mine looks like walnut back on the butt and comb of the stock. Very nice wide grain but my stock is almost a blonde color. Definitely the lightest color wood stock I have seen in a long time.
But yes the barrel breaks open easy. Cocks easy and stays in place while open. In other words just right tight on the barrel pivot point and locks up tight with minimal effort.
Oh and the blueing is not to bad either for it being $129 rifle.
But I guess I got about 200 shots through mine right now. First I will say my barrel was very clean. I mounted my Hawke 2.5-10 power 1/2 mildot scope on it. The gun did diesel and smoke and smell for about the first 5 shots. So shot more and the smell and diesel whent away. Got some smoke here and there for about the first 50 shots. Then that stopped. Started getting pretty consistent groups so was going to chrony it but…
But I would shoot about 10 or so shots and the gun would pop and shoot about 4″ high. Then come back and shoot good. Yep it was dieseling every once in a while. So I decided I’m going to keep shooting it a while and get the assembly oil burnt up and the seal seated in before I chrony the gun.
But it is a smooth shooter. It has a nice shot cycle. Maybe a little twangy. But very, very minimal. I’m sure it will go away when I shoot it more. And I did try placing the stock in different spots on my Monkey bag to see if resting it changed the groups of the rifle. Well it did. But what is funny it is completely opposite of all the other spring guns and nitro piston guns I have had. My M8 likes to be shot with the stock rested almost on the trigger gaurd. About 2″ forward right where the checkering ends on the side of the stock.
All my other spring guns including the Tx and the LGU would shoot 4″ high and throw the shots all over. Not my M8. But I think I got more shooting to do with it to see what it really likes to be held lime and it still needs more time to come alive.
But all and all I would say the best $129 spring gun that I have owned.
Oh and I think Buldawg mentioned no owners manual. Mine didn’t have one in the box either. Only some foam formed packing. But if you actually start looking over the outside of the box. It is the owners manual. It definatly tails what most air gun manuals cover that I have seen. That’s just my take on the manual thing but I thought I would mention that.
And notice I didn’t give any group sizes yet. It is to early yet for the gun but I want to see what BB says about accuracy. Oh heck with it. It will hit a ferral can at 35 yards with ease. But I ain’t going to say no group sizes yet. Because honestly the rifle or me for that fact ain’t ready for that yet. We still got to spend some time together so we both know what to do.
GF1,
Mendoza is the company who builds the M8 and they are in Mexico.
B.B.
BB
Yes I know. I just want to bring that up for this reason.
So from you having both rifles. The Bronco and the M8. Is the M8 basically the same rifle except for the stock and no sights?
GF1,
Very much so.
B.B.
Thanks BB.
>Oh and I think Buldawg mentioned no owners manual.
You mean it contains no lawyers’ manual, Gunfun1 (a manual written by lawyers)?
>But if you actually start looking over the outside of the box. It is the owners
>manual. It definatly tails what most air gun manuals cover that I have seen
How could they fit all their legal CYA on the box? I hate gun manuals these days. It’s hard to find useful information in them, because it’s buried in paragraph after paragraph, and pages and pages of useless “you’ll shoot your eye out” warning text. I suspect that the sheer volume of lawyer text in modern manuals actually deters customers from reading any of it!
I downloaded a copy of the old “Sheridan Hand Book — Silver Streak and Blue Streak Models” from the web just for kicks recently. Wow–it contained a lot of useful information! No company publishes manuals like that anymore!
Cal
That’s a good point about the lawyer stuff.
I didn’t go down and look at the box the m8 came in again. I got it put away all ready.
But yes how are they getting away with (not) having a manual with the legal stuff in the box.
And you know what. On the right hand side of the main tube of the rifle it says. This is not a toy. Read owners manual.
Gunfun1,
Just thought I’d mention that I shoot both my TX200 and LGV off a mechanical rest and both are very accurate that way.
G&G
G&G
I do like them if I’m shooting at a target placed out in one spot.
But I have targets placed out all over the yard when I shoot. I guess it depends on the mechanical rest you have. Sometimes it makes it difficult to keep setting up for a different shooting position.
I like to be able to move me and my rest if needed.
My M8 has surprised me in it smoothness and has so far been a very easy cocking and all day shooter with good accuracy out to 25 yards which is the longest range I have shot it at as of now. I really like the light weight and it fits my arm length very good and comes up my shoulder quite well.
My only real gripe so far is the trigger is very nice in the first blade take up and has a definite second stop that at the first 100 shots seemed to break clean and crisp with around the pound or slightly over pull as BB has measured but in the last 30 or so shot it seems to have increased in the effort required to break for the second stage release and it may just be me off today but I am going to remove the stock and see if anything appears to have moved or need some lubing to get it back to the feel it had for the first 100 shots.
other than that it is all I expected and truly a fun gun to shoot. I have not chronyed mine yet as it is not fully broke in yet so I will give it another 100 pellets before seeing just what it shoots at and so far am very pleased with the money spent.
BD
Buldawg
I hope I can chrony mine in another hundred shots. That would make roughly 300 shots for mine.
I don’t know if you remember my HW50s when I got it. It was well over 1000 shots before it stabilized and started really performing group wise.
I’m just going to shoot mine for a while. If the groups are clustering good then I will probably chrony mine. But only to know if it speeds up or slows down with more shooting time on the gun. And I should say to see if the velocity just plain ole stays where its at.
The chrony ain’t going to tell me any more than what my targets say.
But on the other hand I could chrony my gun all the way through its settling in time to see what this particular gun does at different points in time. That way I will see if the velocity changed and affected my target groups. And then have reference points to compare to at so many shots with velocity and groups if I did a tune on the gun.
But really my biggest thing is that I record my groups were after so many shots through the gun.
Now if we talk pcp’s then yes chronying the gun is essential to get velocity and shot count established. Then it’s time to see how the groups do. And as you know the velocity might need to be changed to make the gun perform with a particular pellet. So then starts the tuning process over again.
But yea if you chrony your M8 at 300 shots I would like to know group sizes so maybe I have something to compare to with my M8 at 300 shots.
OK guys, I am curious about the trigger. Can you pull the trigger using only the “second stage trigger” or is it locked until you pull the “first stage trigger” back?
RR,
Well, that’s something I never tried. The twp blades are too close together to make this an easy proposition, plus the second blade is on the left. I tried it and the second blade just clicked back — no shot.
The trigger was locked until I cocked the gun again to reset it.
B.B.
I just need to correct myself from above. I said 2nd stage was on the right.
That’s wrong it is on the left like BB said. Anyway I just wanted to say that.
BB.
Well that is great. That is how it should operate. The first stage trigger engages the second stage trigger. I’m impressed. That trigger is more complex than most. Now if you could adjust the let off, although it sounds pretty decent as it is.
I really hope it is very inaccurate. I do not need another air rifle vying for a spot on my short list. It is long enough as it is.
Gunfun1
I was just going to chrony at 300 shots only if it stopped dieseling completely as it like yours and still smokes every once in a while but does not get louder or any noise related to the smoke to actually say its dieseling other than the smoke.
I have not actually shot any groups with mine yet just a rough sight in at 20 yards to hit feral cans with every shot except for the occasional flyer like yours has but my barrel was filthy as received and required several patches with brake clean applied to come out clean and then a couple to completely dry the barrel inside and one with some light mil spec gun oil to keep it from rusting and then your RWS oil trick yesterday.
As we talked yesterday I am still experimenting with different weight pellets to see just what it likes the best in overall velocity and accuracy but until it cools down here and is not sunny and 98 degrees I cannot do any 35 yard sight in as I am out in direct sunlight and just cannot take the heat as I start sweating in less than a minute and with my eye surgery just a week old today I am not willing to have sweat run into my right eye and plus it been so humid as well that when I bring any gun outside from inside my house the scope lens fog up and you can see condensation forming on the metal of the guns immediately so it has been limited shooting until evening or early morning when the condensation does not occur. Its supposed to be a cool front come thru this weekend as well here to so should be able to get more shooting time on it .
I got to check on why the trigger has seemed to increase in it release pull weight from when new as well since it just way to heavy for my likes right now and I know it is not adjustable but if some molly lube or polishing on contact surfaces will help improve it then I will do that as mine did have some rust in the breech area as well as the dirty barrel so it likely has some rust or crud build up in the trigger as well.
BD
I’m wondering if trigger tuning is as easy as swapping out return springs on the individual triggers with some of these 2 blade designs
Reb
That’s what I am hoping is I can just play with trigger springs as it does have two spring with one on each blade so I am hoping to use two light ones and do some polishing to make it butter smooth.
BD
Really sounds like a nice gun to learn springers with so far. Our Wally’s is having a new floor laid and 0 Impacts left as well as a lot of sporting goods on closeout. I picked up another spinner set for $7.00.
Reb
It is a very nice and easy to cock gun and little to no recoil but is not a powerhouse either so it has its advantages and disadvantages.
Yea our wally world just got done their reset and now everything is all moved around and cannot find what I want and it perturbs me to no end when they do that as they just redid the whole grocery side as well and I cannot find anything there now either and they think it will make shopping better or get you to buy more but it just makes me turn around and leave without buying anything at all as I don’t have the energy to spend hours trying to find what I used to know where it was and could be in and out in a few minutes.
It is not good business practice if you ask me.
BD
Buldawg
I hate that too when they re- arange the stores.
Same here. I just end up leaving and mad because I wasted my time.
Gunfun1
Yep I believe they lose more business than they get by doing that so I have no clue as to why they do other than some marketing guru says we will sell more if we lay it out like this and then they wonder why their profits go down. DUH
BD
Gotta spend those funds or lose em!
Not really my way but others don’t always see it the same and call it the American way.
I’m guessing Corporate has doled out their shares for the decade
REb
You must have been in our govt as you got the way big business and our govt work down pat as if you have excess money then its got to be spent even if in a month you are broke as we will just print more and it wont matter anyway and so we find our country in the shape it is now, broke and going down fast.
BD
BD,
I think they make more money, because it gets people confused and wandering around the store. Then they forget why they are there and buy more stuff.
Like IKEA
Sam
You are probably right but it does not work that way with me as it just pisses me of and I end up leaving without buying anything and those that stay are the problem as if they tolerate it they will continue to do it.
Myself I am one that has always chose to non conform to societies rules and human behaviors so I am a outcast and proud of it and have no plans to change now or ever. So count me as a one percenter that will not conform and take my business elsewhere.
BD. .
Buldawg76,
Me too. I’ll just walk out and leave the cart for anything I did find. But, there are those mindless “heards” that will stay the extra hr. or so, picking up stuff along the way that they would not have bought otherwise.
I do 5% Wally and 95% Aldi,….a discount grocier up this way.
Chris, USA
We just got an Aldi about a year ago and do most of our shopping there as well since we save about 100 buck a month and it is not so big that you cannot find what you need.
Our wally world just did a full reset and they have lost most of my business because of it as if I cannot find what I want quickly and easily I just leave empty handed so it cost them money except for people with nothing better to do.
BD
Reb
Both spring are the same diameter bent at about 120 degrees of angle.
I found out by accident you don’t need a spring on second stage, trigger works just find!
Buldawg
The trigger increasing in pressure is kind of different. I don’t think I have encountered that yet breaking a gun in.
Did that tighten up your group’s a little better with the 3 drops of RWS silicone oil down the barrel. I usually do that on a new gun. Or if I ever see the groups changing from the normal. I may do that once a month or even longer before I do it again. I never do it everytime I shoot just to make myself think its helping the gun shoot better.
And really. Rust in the breech area. I wonder what was making that happen.
Gunfun1
yea I have never had that happen either but the trigger was quite nice at first and with shooting it seems to have become to feel as if the pull has increased instead of lessening as it wears in and is why I think it may have some rust/corrosion build up that needs cleaned off or polished some.
When I first went to load a pellet it had rust in the breech area inside the ID of the breech seal and the barrel when I first pulled a dry patch thru it had brown rust colored crud on the patch and that is why I cleaned it with brake clean until it had clean patches come out and then oiled it to stop further rust and looking done the bore with a light it is not pitted so it may have just been some rust preventative grease that made it appear like rust.
I have not shot actual groups yet just a quick rough sight in at 20 yards to be able to kill feral cans without missing so no real info on just how well it groups or if the RWS oil made any difference.
BD
I’d like to know what you find in there,with your description I find myself wondering if it could be a chunk of flashing that broke off and got caught up between somethings 🙂
The rust certainly warrants disassembly.
Reb
Getting ready to take it apart right now to see what I can find and I am not sure it was actually rust or just a rust colored heavy grease that may be used to prevent rust but I will know more when I get the stock off and can see the underside because if it is in fact rust in the action tube area it will be sent back for another new one as I will not accept a brand new gun with rust in it .
BD
Did it smell like burritos?
:).
Reb
Nope no burritos in this one LOL
BD
I’ve been trying to figure out which deep-fried food these Chinese guns remind me of but I’ve already ate my fill of that and they’ve given me no good reason to continue experimenting
Reb
Yea I fully understand and it looks like another one will bite the dust as well. See reply to GF1 and BB about the m8 trigger and lack of scope stop allow scope to move back against plastic housing causing trigger bind.
BD
Buldawg
I was going to ask you if it looked like some protective tar.
They put that stuff on machine parts we get sometimes. I hate cleaning that stuff up. And they put it on like they are making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Heavy and thick.
But let me know what you find with the trigger.
Oh by the way did you put some drops of oil down both sides of the safety switch. Maybe the switch ain’t disengaging freely. Just a thought.
Gunfun1
It did not look like any protective tar I have ever seen and had a gritty feel as well so just going to look at the spring and piston area to see if I find more of it and I always oil all pivot points and safety latches and so forth on a new gun just to insure that everything is lubricated so it not a dry safety unless it inside the stock where you cannot get at without disassembly.
BD
Gunfun1 and BB
I just pulled the stock off the M8 to inspect why the trigger had become more difficult to get to release as easy as when I first got it and found that the lack of a scope stop hole in the action allowed my hammers 3x9x40 AO scope in a one piece mount with three screws holding the mount on the dovetail and butted up against the black plastic rear action cover/ scope stop plate is not sufficient to prevent the scope mount from moving backwards and caused the black cover/scope stop to be forced backwards and cocked it downward inside the stock against the trigger release cross pin that both triggers contact to release the sear and were putting the triggers in a bind.
BB
if you know of a way to prevent the scope mount from walking other than tearing the gun apart to drill a scope stop hole in the action or having to upgrade mounts just to keep the scope from walking please let me know as I am not really willing to have to disassemble a new gun to drill a hole in it and will not spend more money on scope mounts to prevent the scope from walking on a 130 dollar gun since their should be a scope stop hole or other provision to keep it from walking from the factory and if no other remedy is available then it will be going back because it recoils so little and my mount screws were as tight as they could be I would have not thought it would move so easy.
GF1
You may want to check your gun and see if the scope is walking backward on it as that is what has caused the trigger issue on mine and you can tell by just looking at the rear plastic cover that looks like it should be the place to butt the rear mount up against but it is only held in place by the rear spring retaining cross pin and is free to pivot on that pin easily. The barrel pivot is just a pressed fit pin and my barrel is already loose and can be moved sideways by hand with little effort so it will be going back unless the scope walking issue can be fixed without more money being spent to do so.
BD
Buldawg
I had that problem figured out before I put the scope on.
I mounted the back ring and tightened down the side dovetail clamp screws. Then took the scope top set screw out of the ring. I ground a point on the set screw and and tightened it up good. It’s pressing into the top of the dovetail in the main tube. Then I mounted the scope.
No scope walk for me yet. And that sounds like reasonable explanation of why your trigger got harder.
I don’t know if the scopes going to stay in place on mine with that simple little mod but we’ll see. I will post a reply if it does.
GF1,
Well,….ain’t you the smart one ? 😉
Sorry,…11mm. and no stop hole(s) on an airgun is unforgivable.
Chris
Chris, USA
My thoughts exactly and is why they can have it back.
BD
I actually picked off quite a few Bumblebees from the hip with my RedRyder until The day I hit a hummingbird hidden in the blossom one day.
Reb
Shame on you as I would not do it today but in my early years out hunting on the islands of cocoa beach anything that moved was considered fair game and if we could hit it we shot it .
BD
Reb
I have several rear peep sights and it would be no problem to mount one on the rear dovetail and it would probably stay put but there is no easy way to put a front sight on it so its a no go for me.
Plus the barrel is already loose so it will not hold it up after cocking and therefore will not group good and I just should have been leery of a low cost air gun like the M8 but thought I would give it a chance and it has disappointed me when it got off to a good start but went downhill fast.
So I will just continue to buy used and not be disappointed because I expect to have to work on a used gun.
BD
Chris USA
You know me. I’m always on my toes trying to be on the ball.
Yea right.
And I saw that and knew it wouldn’t work good without a stop.
I’m just so use to doing that every day at work. That’s what I get payed for. Seeing problems and fixing them.
And unforgivable. Why it’s only a 129 bucks. So far from what I seen of the gun there are other companies making break barrel springers that cost alot more than the M8 with alot more problems.
Heck you modded a Tx you know what I mean. 😉
Bu,..Bu,…Butt,….Gunfun1,…..
THAT was ” different “,…… 😉
I was ” NEW “,….I did not know any better,….. 😉 ha-ha !
Reality,…glad I did and learned a lot. Still trying to find out what the HO tune likes.
But,…darn it anyway,….I got this “verified” shooter the other day,…now I have 2 to play with and get good with. 😉
Chris
Chris USA
One of the things about the cheaper guns is you have to keep a thought stored in the back of the ole brain that there could be issues when buy them.
Not to say the expensive guns can’t have issues too. Because they do. I have shot way a bunch of air guns and all kinds of things are possible.
Some of the higher dollar guns don’t have a feature that the lower dollar gun has. And it’s like why don’t all the gun makers do that.
But yes when I’m buying a M8 or a Benjamin nitro piston or any gun for that fact I can almost count on myself asking why something is not done another way.
But here’s the problem. I’m not the normal air gun buyer or shooter. Most people just by a gun and shoot. I have found myself to be to critical about a gun or product. Then I realized everything can’t be the way I want it made. But if I buy something I’m accepting it for what it is.
Here thus us plain and simple. I knew buy looking at pictures of the m8 that there wasn’t a scope ring hole in the dovetail or main tube.
But I bought the gun knowing that. Just like buying a car. You better have your eyes open before you buy it.
Pretty simple don’t you think?
Gunfun1
That would work but I am not willing to damage a new gun or have to drill a hole just to hold a scope in place plus my barrel is loose so it going back.
BD
Buldawg
Its ok. That’s how it goes some times.
I’m sure you will have more things like that happen throughout time.
Then you just have to decide if you want to fix them or send them back.
Thank goodness PA has a good return policy you know.
Gunfun1
Yea I am glad they have a good return policy and I did not see that it did not have a scope stop hole or I would not have bought it to start with as I agree that all air gun companies do build them differently but a spring gun without a scope stop of some sort is just pure incompetence in my book .
Just my train of thought and I thought that the rear cover was designed to serve as the scope stop but I see know it is not and if it was a used gun I would have no issue fixing the problem but a brand new gun regardless of price should not need that type of repair or modification to be used especially when it comes without sights.
That’s why I buy used as I don’t get disappointed by substandard engineering and development.
BD
Buldawg
Just because it’s used?
Thanks for bringing this issue to light!
I’m sure an aperture would stay put a lot better than a 2# scope but I guess it would take some precise work to get a front sight mounted.
gunfun1
Not just because its used but because I expect to have to bring it up my anal standards to be happy with it and I just refuse to have to accept to do that with a new gun regardless of price and I guess that’s some of my old age stubborn perfection coming out as I have been on both sides of the coin and know it can be done better if the desire is there to do so by the manufacture but in today market it is more akin to the manufacture doing as little as possible to sell a product and that just irritates me to no end and why I stand by my opinion that the new stuff is no where near the quality of the old stuff and never will be so I just need to resign to buying used and keep from being disappointed in the future.
BD
Buldawg
Ok I’m lost.
So you don’t mind changing a used gun around.
You still got to buy it or something if its used. Plus you still have to purchase the parts or make them to fix the gun.
Your still doing something to it one way or another to fix it to your standards. Be it a new or used gun.
And remember that old gun your fixing up was new at one time.
Gunfun1
no I don’t mind changing a used gun to suit me or buy parts to fix it as in the long run I still come out cheaper most of the time.
As I said I expect to repair or fix a used gun but I should not have to fix or modify a new gun to work properly from the get go and that is my issue.
yes every used gun was new at one time and the person that bought it may have been happy with how it worked but if it was perfect or an exceptional gun it probably would not be sold so it would not be available as a used gun.
no I don’t have to change a new gun to suit me if I feel it is not worth the effort to do so and is why the m8 is going back because it is not worth my time or effort to make it right and I cannot fix the loose barrel since it is a pinned pivot and has no provision to be tightened up.
I cannot explain it any better but it is what it is and thats all I can say.
BD
Buldawg
If you look hard enough as I said before there is things that will stand out as needing to be changed.
I guess it all depends on what you want something old and needing fixed the way you want it or a new gun needing fixed the way you want it.
And you are eifgt. It probably mostly depends on the person. Some people like a brand new gun to work from and some want something old that needs changed around.
Probably the best way to say it is whatever makes a person happy. Everybody has their own opinion of what they want.
Buldawg
I forgot that made me think of something this morning after I made the reply about the chrony last night.
You know how you said you shot the rifling out of your 1400 throughout out time. And we talked about the anatomy of the pellets. Then I suggested taking the 3 different pellet brands that we both have used and try to push your thumb nail into the head of the pellet. We found that 2 different brand pellets were softer than one brand. That seems that could make a difference in the life and accuracy of a gun.
But where I’m going with this is when I was younger I didn’t even know if a chrony existed. At the most I would just but cans or something out at different distances to practice.
I think the most fun I had was doing that with my 760. I use to pump the gun up a given amount of times for a certain distance. I would never change my POA. But it worked out nice. At closer distances I need less pumps and that meant less power. But it was still enough power to get the job done. Then I would pump the gun up more as the distance grew. And which would give the gun more power for that distance to still be effective.
That’s the way I done it back then. And I tell you what when I got my Benjamin. 22 cal. pump gun a few years later and placed them cans and such out at different distances it didn’t take me long to figure out that old Benji was making seriuos power compared to that little .177 caliber 760. And no chrony needed. I just knew.
You know kind of like the seat of the pants feeling you get when you make a change to a car or motorcycle your hopping up. I don’t know about you but I didn’t have access to a dyni everyday. You know the equivalent of a chrony to a gun. And well no that I think of it you might of had acsess to a dyni when you started working at Harley.
But what did you do when you were a kid and you made a change on your dirt bike. You rode it or you raced somebody that you know how the bike ran and compared before and after results. Well that’s what I mean about a chrony. You got to shoot the rifle to know what the rifle is doing at paper just like you had to ride your dirt bike before you had acsess to a dyno.
And don’t think I’m picking at you. I just wanted to express another point of the ball game if you know what I mean.
And suppose to say dyno. Not dyni or whatever my phone said.
Gunfun1
No do not think you are picking at me as we are just trying to help each other improve our enjoyment of shooting. Well I did the fingernail test with three 25 caliber pellets with the following results, 1, softest was the H&N barracudas 2. second was the JSB 25.39 grains and 3. as you said it would be was the Benjamin 27,8 grain pellet was the hardest and barley showed any impression and I used a good bit of force so crosman pellets are much harder than other premium brand pellets and I can see that they would eventually wear down the rifling over time as my 1400 is proof that the rifling can and will be completely worn away after enough time and pellets and I shot anything and everything I could buy back then thru it so I can not say it was any one particular pellet that wore the barrel out.
Unlike you I used my 1400 for hunting predominantly so it was at ten pumps all the time and very seldom was pumped up less than 6 times so it did hit with a lot of authority and I killed more raccoons with it than I ever did with my 12 ga shotgun. I never owned a 177 back then but Skippy my best friend had and still does a first generation 760 with the all wood stocks that did shoot good but no where near as powerful as my 1400 was and he still killed as many animals as I did with it because back then if it moved it was fair game for us out on the islands regardless of size whether big or small we were fearless with our pellet guns in hand. LOL
Yea growing up as a kid with my dirt bikes and pellet guns I did not know what a chrony was or a dyno was so if was all seat of the pants for sure. I knew if what I did to my dirt bike helped or hurt it by how easy and far it would wheelie or do a power slide and it was most definitely seat of the pants but I did know that most of what I did was going to improve it as they were the same mods that our local Yamaha shop was doing to their race bikes so they would share the info very freely. I never did modify my 1400 until two year ago as I just pumped it up to ten pumps and shot the heck out of it.
I did have access to dynos at Harley and is how I tuned my shovel to run the way it does so they are valuable tools but not a necessity for good performance if you have a good butt. LOL
BD
Buldawg
We use to hunt with or pellet guns too. And still used the pumps for distance changes. Matter of fact I still use pump guns that way to this day.
And yea what do you think happens to guns performance if the rifling in a barrel starts getting rounded or lapped to a bigger diameter by pelet after pellet of firing. Think about that pellet sorting gauge. If .025 mm makes a difference in head size then I think I would try to shoot a pellet that won’t kill the rifling.
But think about that .025 mm. That is .001 of a inch. Here I’ll say it. That’s one thousands of a inch if you convert to inches. And you got to remember that’s really only a half thousands a side. So if that little bit of head diameter makes a change in pellet performance just think what wore out rifling could do.
Gunfun1
Yep and that why my 1400 is wearing a disco barrel now with a steel breech so while it still shot good as in would spit pellets out with a decent thwack on the metal back stop I never did see just how accurate it was as it open sights only as there is no provision for mounting a scope on it with the stock barrel but with the steel breech now there is just have not done it as it has peep sights on it now and is sighted at the CMP range for mid 10s to 10.9s at ten meters.
I could not have known if it was accurate with the stock barrel since my eyes and open sights are not a good combination for accuracy. LOL
BD
Buldawg
It was all open sights for me back in those days.
I didn’t know what a scope was till I got in my teens.
Well something like that anyway.
🙂
Gunfun1
Yea it was open sight for me as well as It after I was in my late teens or early twenties that I had a scope and it is still on my Remington model 788 243 Winchester caliber bolt action rifle that was my first deer gun .
BD
B.B.,
There’s lots of excitement, across all forums, about The Texas Airgun Show. You’ve created a wonderful venue for airgunners. Really wish I could make it.
Mike of Mrodair plans on bringing the new .30 caliber Velociraptor to your show. He also hopes to be able to bring the new Huben K1 semi auto.
I know you’re going to be very busy but……..IF Mike brings the Huben K1 and if you have time would you please shoot the K1 and give your impressions. Thanks.
kevin
Kevin,
I wish you were coming.
Do you know if Mike is planning on having a table? The reservation process has been screwed up for two months, but I am getting it resolved today. I don’t want anyone who wants a table to miss out, because this year’s show will be so much larger.
B.B.
B.B.,
Sorry, I don’t know if Mike is planning on having a table. Would surprise me if he doesn’t. He’s excited about the show.
Kevin
does the breech lock up have a ball detent and does it have a bolt or a pin?
Paw,
It’s a spring-loaded chisel point.
B.B.
Do you have to whack it open, or can you just grab the muzzle and get straight to cocking?
Reb
Mine opens by hand. And you don’t have to slam it closed to get it to latch up tight. I can touch the chisel on the rod and just give it a little more pressure and it clicks in.
And so far the whole gun is very tight and well assembled.
Remember I said that mime was made in Mexico. Well one of the best small block Chevy factory heads were made down there back in the early 70’s. The 347x head.
But yes a pretty nice little gun to shoot and its light to carry. Oh and the stock is laid out nice. Very comfortable to shoot. For me anyway.
I have no problems With Mexican wares food or family. I just know the food smells good!
Reb
That Mexican foos tastes good too.
😉
Dang phone.
food not foo.
One of these days this phone is going to get it.
B.B.
We’ve got a few Mendozas, but I never used to test one myself, but from what heard, it’s almost a perfect mid-ranger. This one looks like “poor man’s HW-97”. Lack of open sights suggests that producer hopes it to be used at the range that exceeds normal open sights distance and has enough accuracy to enjoy looking at some holes through optics. Let’s see if it shoots in line with its appearance.
Ok, I think I got some progress to report 😉
Yesterday my Mk.II main coupling went to CNC guy for evaluation and eventually production. It is _the_ most complex detail in all construction, as it reqires everything – milling, drilling, turning, and tapping. And when it’s done, it’ll be glued in place. Sometimes modern resins and ol’ trusted steel mix quite well.
Everything else is much simpler – the second part by complexity is receiver, but it is almost twice simpler than coupling. Everything else is just mill, mill and drill or turn/turn and drill.
Let’s hope this time I’ll produce something lighter and more powerful. Amen 🙂
duskwight
Duskwight,
You have certainly given us a saga to follow, with your airgun developments. Most guys just drink the beer and stop after the talking. But you carried through not once but twice.
Good on ya, mate! 😉
B.B.
B.B.
I told you, I’m stubborn 🙂
Since there would be no beer or anything for me for at least 4 more months – my liver had it with antibiotics this April – what’s there to do?
duskwight
Duskwight, I considered gathering a fund to help this project move forward last fall when you gave the dimensions of the necessary tubing.
Glad you were able to procure the necessities!
Tell us more. 🙂
Reb,
Don’t give up – your help may still be needed 😉 One of lessons I learned in my life is that things change and when they change, they do it fast. So tubing may still be of a good use.
Overall Mk.II is the same opposing piston project, based on lessons learned from Mk.0. It was conceived with one idea at its core – bigger bang for smaller bucks and much smaller weight.
The first thing I got rid of is the concept of stock itself. It consumes too much space unoccupied by any mechanism and it gives a lot of weight. Then I told myself – “Down with aesthetics, function is the only aesthetics”.
So Mk. II is based on a single carbon steel tube, 900 mm long, with different cutouts, that runs from one end to another and holds everything in place. It can be divided in 3 compartments, starting from the forend: powerplant, that holds 2 pistons with their springs and plugs, trigger compartment – rather short, holding the trigger than is pinned to the rear plug, cocking compartment that holds cocking lever fulcrum, cocking link, cocking plug and transmission bar below.
Powerplant consist of 2 pistons, 2 gas springs and compression volume. Pistons have 70+70 mm separation.
Transmission bar is below the tube ang has a slot that allows it to move around sides of trigger mechanism.
Cocking lever is located to the right side of the tube to save vertical dimension. It is rather long to give enough force for easy single-stroke cocking, but its length is hidden by the fact that fulcrum touches the shooter’s shoulder.
At the center of the powerplant is the main coupling. It holds everything together and provides a base for synchro unit, that is below the coupling. Two toothed bars run through synchro, in contact with the cogwheel inside, very close to the main tube and connect to pistons via t-shaped bar heads.
Trigger unit is Rekord, reworked to catch sidehook pistons.
Above the main tube is the receiver. It runs for 360 mm, made from 7075 aloy and provides a MILSTD-1913 base for scope, holds the barrel and loading bolt. It is made as slim as possible, with lots of cutouts, leaves a very “aircraft” impression. The main goal was to make it as light and stiff as possible. It is attached to the main coupling by 6 M5 bolts at the front and to the tube by 2 M5 bolts at the back.
Loading is done through simple L-type bolt, see Crosman 2100 or Izh-60 for reference.
Barrel is 260 mm and 16 mm dia CZ, to make it stiff and minimize possible lever effect while providing enough guidance for the pellet and utilizing all the air from the springer powerplant.
When assembled, barrel does not protrude forward farther than the front end of the main tube.
Buttstock will be simple tube with vertical surface and cheekpiece. Watch M16/M4 platform for reference. Grip will be bolted to the main tube and made from laminate. There would be no forend, only some covers to protect the syncro and belly rail, to provide palm or sandbag rest.
I believe that covers it.
duskwight
Duskwight
That sounds like my kind of spring gun.
Maybe a video or pictures would be great when you get it assembled and shooting.
Duskwight
They have 2 part epoxys that they glue quarter pannels on cars with now days.
One of my buddies works in aerospace and he gave me some 2 part epoxy that is fuel resistant. That stuff is as hard as steel to drill or tap.
Mordern technology is good in some ways ain’t it.
Gunfun,
Good indeed.
In my case that would be a 1-part anaerobic glue that is used e.g. to glue gears to their shafts in BMW transmissions. It will act like a glue and like a sealing agent to provide airtight connection.
duskwight
Duskwight
That’s interesting. I’m guessing that glue would be resistant to fluids if used in a transmission.
I’m guessing that the place you will use that glue won’t be exposed. So cleaning the gun off shouldn’t be a problem.
Gunfun,
On the one hand, the stuff I’m going to use is stated as oil-resistant, petrol-resistant and glycole-resistant. Or else they wouldn’t use it in gearbox. On the other hand, the seam would be hidden from any influence, in fact only two rings of it, 0,1×33 mm will be exposed to air and possible oils and the rest of the surface will be hidden under 1,5 mm steel.
But that’s a good thinking from your side, thank you. I’ll apply some “cold ceramic” paint rings to seal it while everythng is still degreased, just to be on the safe side.
duskwight
Duskwight
What kind of velocity will your gun make? Will it be a target gun or just a fun general purpose gun?
Just interested in what you had in mind to use it for.
That’ll take at least 2 more readings to comprehend half of but Thanks for sharing it for that purpose!
I’ll probably be back from time to time as I progress..
Reb,
Perhaps a pictire could help?
duskwight
Gunfun,
Velocity – I’ll tell you when it’s built and tested on how fast it shoots.
Calculating that is always a waste of time, as we don’t yet completely understand what makes what and cannot 100% correct calculate velocity for a single-piston gun – too many factors and they interplay. Imagine that two pistons raise complexity of the equation at least sqrt2 times.
However, as for power (powerlant power, what is blown into the channel between swept volume and the pellet, not the power of a pellet leaving the barrel), there could be some analogue models. Opposer can be modeled as a gun with half the length of a compressed volume, but twice the piston head area. So technically speaking opposers are not quite effective powerplants. And a tremendous spring.
From what I learned from my own and other very respected people’s practice, one of “nearly perfect constants” for springer powerplant by means of power/cocking force/size/weight is between 25×100 and 28×130 swept volume. So you see, that ratio is somewhere near 1:4. And I believe it’s universal for this planet, as gas mix is stable since Carbon Age and human anatomy is for at least 20K years. To make things “perfect” for opposer, you should make it, perhaps 20 by 2×140 (wild guess). Perhaps I should try that one day 🙂
Accuracy – I’ll tell you when it’s built and tested on how accurate it shoots 🙂
That depends first and foremost from overall design stiffness. The closer your airgun is to a solid billet with a barrel – the more accurate your gun is. With two identical barrels stiffer construction springer shoots better.
Then comes moving mass. The less is moving masses off the fore-aft axis of the gun, the better. It’s all about the inertia and vibration. It can be “suppressed” to certain extent by overall system’s weight or specially added weights – bigger inertia just soaks in all multidirectional and multiforce impulses. A perfect springer is a steel billet with a stiff barrel with an only moving part which is the piston – accelerated by Holy Spirit or something else like that, because even the gas spring gives some sideways sway. No cocking lever – as it has its own mode of vibration. No trigger unit – as it has too. And preferably no stock, with the billet bolted to some sort of concrete block.
Trust me, I cannot understand even half of that horrid math in Russian, least to explain that in English 🙂 But FWB 150-300-300S development can shed some light I think. You can notice, that in years they shortened the cocking lever. I believe some of the reason for that was to take down the inertia and free-moving mass besides powerplant, while keeping reasonable cocking force.
And barrel quality is a very important cherry atop of the cake with its 25% (I believe) influence to accuracy.
I hope it’ll be quite accurate or else what’s all the fuss with two pistons? If it is, I will definitely use it to compete and to get if not the cup, then people’s eyes 😉
Anything can look cool on the monitor or in blueprints. In real life things may be waaay different. However I can tell you one thing right now – it’s not going to be pretty 😉
duskwight
Duskwight,
You have got me “hooked” What a project ! Please, please, keep us updated on the progress. I like the “bare bones” approach.
Pictures would be nice, but then again, with all that “top secret” stuff,…you would probably have to kill us. That’s,…not good. 😉
Really though,….I envy your drive and spirit,…and,…wish you all the best ! Chris
Duskwight
Oh I know all that math stuff can make a person crazy depending on how deep you want to go.
I just thought maybe you had some goals set already of what you wanted the final product to be.
And I’m sure it will be pretty. If I remember right you posted some pictures in the past of other guns you did work on.
Accurate. Well as it goes. That’s always a good thing when it happens. But I have faith that you will make it happen.
🙂
Hi BB,
I remember Edith talking about your cats. You mentioned one yesterday. Have the cat’s figured out something is different yet? Cats are curious creatures and I don’t know how they would respond to someone not being there. I hope they provide a little comfort to you.
For the airgun show, do you know if there are more people wanting tables than there are tables available? I got two tables but one is all I need. If I keep the second table I plan to bring some of my dads Enfields, Springfields and maybe Mausers. I really don’t know how to price them though and don’t know if this show would be a good place to try to sell them.
David Enoch
David,
Yes, the cats know something is different. Their mommy hasn’t come home yet. There is no way to tell them, so I’m treating them with all the love I can.
The show tables are a mess right now. The people taking reservations weren’t doing a very good job, so they were replaced today and we are getting control. As far as I know right now, there are still a few tables in the main hall, then we will open the small hall next door. We have the room to expand.
Thank you for your offer, but I think we are fine.
Of course I do anticipate more firearms at this show, because of the big crowd. So bring ’em if you got ’em.
B.B.
B.B.,
I have one issue with my Mendoza M8 I do not have with my two Broncos. (And the Bronco is my all-time favorite design for lower powered break barrel springers — why I bought an M8 as a way of getting a “lifetime supply” of Broncos after they were discontinued.)
Both the M8 and Bronco have a peened (I hope I’m using the term correctly) bolt joint connecting the barrel/breech block to the action’s fork. My two Broncos have the fork flush with the breech block on both sides, a nice snug fit. My M8 has daylight on both sides between the fork and the breech block. There is no lateral barrel wiggle, but I figure eventually it will require remediation, probably screws installed on either side to replace the bolts.
Michael
Ouch!
Say it isn’t so, quality makes a big difference especially by mail order.
Checked mine and no gap at the hinge point on the sides.
Back by the breech maybe .005″ on each side. But absalutly no side movement of the barrel.
And another thing to watch on a break barrel.
On both of my Broncos, both have the western stock, the 1st one in blond wood, the second brown wood, there is absolutely no gap at all between the forks and the breech block. It is full continuous contact as far as I can tell.
With my M* the gap on each side seems to be about three playing cards thickness on each side. It locks up tightly, no wiggle at all, but after so many thousands of shots, it surely will. And this is a sweet-shooting enough rifle that despite its low price, I would still feel the need to have a machinist fix it.
The true value of an item has nothing whatsoever to do with its price tag. The times you get more than you pay for is probably about the same as the number of times you don’t get what you pay for. My Intro to Marketing class textbook had an entire chapter devoted to the established business practices dictating MSRP. It is both science/math and art. The MSRP for a high quality, no-name, Chinese-made, 16 oz. claw hammer with fiberglass handle, for example, is 100 percent number crunching, pure math. The MSRP of a premium scotch whiskey, however, is 100 percent educated guesswork based on previously proven pricing models. In other words, the price of any scotch that has an MSRP of over, say, $15 for a 750ml bottle is priced entirely with an eye toward product image.
The perfect example of the latter are certain ultra-expensive English made automobiles (no, not Jaguar, much pricier than those). They are made with exotic materials (ostrich leather seats, burled walnut steering wheel and dash, etc.) in conspicuous places, but they are poorly engineered, and the assembly is only average.
Michael
Michael
I just left a reply to Chris about this above.
Sometimes you just have to accept a product as it is.
Heck back in the old days when I was racing the muscle cars. The manufacturers thought they had them right. I gaurentee you I could find something wrong in the design and improve it.
But when I bought that muscle car I knew why I was buying it. And it wasn’t to poke on down to the grocery store and get a gallon of milk and some eggs.
Some of the muscle cars I accepted as they were. Some I had to change to do what I wanted.
Air guns are the same. It all depends on who is getting them and how they will use them.
Just don’t buy something and expect it to be something else that it’s not or never will be.
Gunfun1,
All good points. Believe me,…..hanging out here and learning along the way,…my eye’s are WIDE open to issues.
On the side,….the 11mm. to Weaver 1pc. Hawke adapter “crashed” the other day.
One of the 4 screws stripped. It slipped, no matter how tight I got it/them.
The BKL 11x11x11 riser has 6 screws and has held. Whew ! I DID however had to drill a rear ring stop pin hole on top. On the TX.
Head’s up,..new shooters,….you need a stop pin. Even at 500, 6,and 700fps,…your rings WILL move without a stop pin.
Pictatinny/Weaver,…???? Great if you got it,…but as you firearms shooters know,….A true Weaver or Picatinny mount will have a square “block” over the screw. The P/W “universal with round pin only will slip over the square P/W rails. Mine did it,….a “not so nice” dent in the rear side of the slot.
I’m sure this will start a “firestorm”,…..but really,….sell what works,…or don’t sell it.
Just my opinion,….Chris
Chris USA
Just try to understand.
You put a scope riser/ adapter on the Tx?
Why not just get a talker scope ring. The riser is just one more variable that can cause problems.
Is that what you did or did I misunderstand.
Gunfun1,
First was the 11/W adapter, 3/8″ rise. (stripped screw/slip) Second was the 11x11x11 riser with 5/8″ rise. (so far, no slip) TX.
Have had high 11mm. rings from the start. Too, high ??? Maybe,…but “feels” good on the neck and “feels” more “natural”. TX.
Maybe go lower on TX,…but will order a high set of 11mm. for the LGU for a start,..no riser.
Funny thing on the LGU,….the low rings were hard to get used to,…..but I am able to shoot it. Hard,..but I can do it.
Chris
Chris USA
Yes the LGU seems to have a higher comb or something than normal. A medium rise would probably of been better.
The medium rise rings seem to be working best for me here lately. That’s what the M8 has on it. And the Tx. I just took the high rise off the Marauder because I went back to a AirVenturi .25 caliber single shot tray. So I put a medium rise ring on it now because I don’t have to worry about clearing the magazine.
But the only way I will use a riser is if its a droop compensating riser or adapter. And I try my darndest not to just because of the extra variable to mount the scope.
Gunfun1,
I held a straight rod on the barrel back to the comb. They are the same, with only a slight bit of contour/slope diifference.
As for risers, adapters, or what ever,….I go back to my original statement in that,…if it don’t work ,…don’t sell it.
Yes,…I agree,…variables are no good. Which again, relates back to the above statement.
I am still learning and trying to figure out what works for me. You have shot for years and I am sure things are more “instinctual” or “automatic”.
Going from high/riser on the TX to low on the LGU was quite the eye opener.
Like I said,….maybe go lower, but playin” with what I got for now.
Chris
Chris USA
Look at your LGU and your Tx.
On my Tx right hand stock the comb is off set to the right of the main tube centerline. Also where you grip the stock of the Tx with your trigger hand the grip is kind of offset to the left of the centerline on the right hand model.
I don’t know if the left hand stock is like that on your Tx.
It makes the gun easier to shoot. But also the LGU is ambedexterous. So it doesn’t have those little ofsets in the stock design that count.
And I forgot why didn’t the risers work? But the main thing is that you learn what not to use. And do you think they will ever stop making things that people don’t think work. I doubt it.
I can bring up a few examples but what does that matter any way. Bottom line be smart about what you choose to do.
Chris & the rest,
Is it an idea to turn this discussion into a guest blog? I would love to see photo’s with the different solutions and some more explanations why a solution works.
Personally I do like older guns (1960-1990) with period scopes. It looks like they have less problems than the current ones. I mount them, sight them in and shoot and that is it. Although I put a new Hawke on my HW80 which also behaves quite well.
I must say that when I compare the current set of scopes with the period ones, the progress in scopes is for me more amazing than the progress in spring guns. My HW80 holds its own quite well with the newer guns, but I would not like to shoot that one with a period scope.
Regards,
August.
Michael and Gunfun1
Just for the record and to give my experience with my new less than 150 shots thru it M8 that had a one piece scope mount slide back against the plastic rear cover and cocked it so that it contacted the trigger cross pin and caused the trigger to bind increasing the pull significantly.
Also after that was discovered and closer inspection and testing I discovered that with the guns stock held right behind the breech with one hand and the other hand on the muzzle brake I have 1/16 inch of wiggle in the barrel to breech block/receiver fork out at the muzzle brake and since there is no way to tighten it up and being a new gun it is being sent back for a refund as the issue I have had with it are for me unacceptable even for a low priced gun.
So while the Broncos were touted as good guns and my first impression of the M8 was very good I am now disappointed in its quality and fast decline in its quality and when it was first received it had rust in the breech to barrel joint on the breech end of the barrel and a filthy barrel that required brake clean to remove the brown rust colored crud from the barrel and the Styrofoam that the gun is shipped with inside the box is also stained brown from rust at the barrel end of the Styrofoam that supports the barrel, that along with the lack of a scope stop hole and loose barrel means it is a non keeper for me.
BD
Gunfun1,
Quite the observation on the on the grip off-set !!!,…..never noticed that !
The comb IS the same height for all intensive purposes. You could check,…but,….. 😉
As for risers,,,,the 11x11x11 did work,….the Hawke just did not hold up,…or hold. 1/16~1/8 slip in 50 shots.
Outa’ here for now,…long, hard week at the ol’ cookie factory if you know what I mean ?
Supposed to be pretty good this weekend,…so will be putting the TX and LGU through their paces. 1 holers at 50,…we’ll see. Doubt it,…but we’ll see.
Later,…Chris
Chris USA
Ok talk later.
But check out the comb looking from the top of the gun. Not from the side. The right hand model is off set to the right that way when you rest your cheek it will put your eye to the right which will help you be in a more natural line of sight with the scope.
I’m guessing the left hand models are just the opposite. Comb is shifted to the left looking from the top of the gun.
And what was the part number PA gives for that Hawke mount? I want to check it out and see how it’s designed just so I know.
Let me know whenever.
GF1,
PY-A-4163. Pivot up front, elevation screw at rear. And yea, your right on the comb being offset to the left.
Thanks Chris.
Hello all while we are talking springers, I finally picked up the 435 Winchester Diana 35 that has been sitting in a dusty corner of a cluttered gunshop. I discovered only when I got home it has a pronounced ski jump barrel bend from a slamfire. The rust bloom and general crud has polished off nicely with 0000 steel wool and Ballistol. Its a 69 dated gun. I am ready to bend the barrel back into shape, and test fire.
Mr. Rob
How bad did the barrel get bent. That would wreek havoc on a barrel I bet.
Please update as you go. I would like to know how the gun shoots after your done.
Will do. I enjoy tinkering and restoring old rifles to shoot and admire. Kinda like most dudes like to with cars. The barrel bending should be simple, it’s quite easy as B.B. has shown in a 5 part series. This rifle is bent up maybe 4- 7 degrees. No other damage apparent.
Amazing that it would bend that much. But alot of force there also.
And yes. Why not bend it back. Got to keep them guns shooting.
Keep us updated.
Restored the barrel to its original lines or maybe better since now there is no droop. It’s easy with the dianas have found. You have to proceed slowly because the barrels are softer than you think. I use a furniture clamp, like a pony brand.
The rifle shoots 650fps as found. I oiled with rws chamber oil. Now shoots 680 or so hobbys.
Mr. Rob
Glad you got it bent.
Now for some shooting time I suppose.
🙂
Interesting that this is just a Bronco in a nicer dress. I always get wary of these Techforce guns never knowing who’s doing the building really. Funny thing is how much of a following they have on the major forums. Those guys love to buy these and break them down and mod or tune them back up. I think the stock looks pretty nice as well on this one, very blonde which is nice for a change. Thanks B.B.
Ricka.
I took another close look at this gun which leaves me with a few questions.
How is the muzzle brake attached and what’s it made of?
Reb
It looks like its pressed on. I see no set screws. I don’t think it’s threaded. But also I didn’t try to unun screw it.
And above you asked about open sights. You had a fix for the rear sight but was asking about the front sight.
I know I have seen people epoxy or super glue the front sight back on the top of the TKO muzzle brakes.
That’s what people were doing with the Benjamin Discovery’s if they put the muzzle brake on. You would just take the front sight of the gun then glue it on the muzzle brake.
Probably the quickest way if you don’t feel like drilling and tapping a couple holes in the muzzle break/weight on the M8.
I was wondering if the one on my 953 might be a good replacement, it’s even got a dovetail to get really fancy with and there are at least 2 sizes available through Daisy.
Reb
There is no dovetail on the front of the M8 muzzle weight.
So if you wanted to use the 953 front sight you would have to find and attach a little adapter to the M8 muzzle weight first.
If you did that it would work pretty good I believe.
I was talking about using the Daisy brake and front sight choices in place of the stock one from the M8
Reb
Oh ok. Yea that might turn into more work than its worth.
First we don’t know if it will be easy to get the M8 muzzle weight off. Then you will need to see if the barrels are the same diameter.
It would probably be quicker to take something like J-B weld and just attach a adapter that has a dove tail on top. Then you could still have different sights you could attach.
Can you tell what the brake’s made of ?
Reb
I just put a magnet on it and it is magnetic.
So its some kind of steel.
Well that’s good.
You don’t think it would be worthwhile to machine a dovetail into it for a diopter setup?
Reb
Sure why not if you have the resources to do it.
I just found a thread on GTA saying it’s threaded 1/2″ UNF.
Reb
I have vise grips that has a cloth strap attached to it.
It was a no go for me. Couldn’t get it to budge. And I’m known at work for being able to get something loose when other people can’t.
Did they say if its Locktited or something?
Actually he did say excessive oil contaminated the threads and loctite.
Reb
Well at least somebody says it will com off.
Why what do you have in mind if you was to get it off.
Hey wait a minute. Did you get a M8 and you ain’t telling us. 🙂
I’m thinking one of the European manufacturers already have a direct fit readily available.
Reb
So when you screw that muzzle break on. Do you think the dovetail would end up straight up.
Wait a minute what does that matter. Just use a little loctit and position the dovetail straight up.
Sun Optics Adjustable Scope Rings, ???
Anyone had experience with these ? (PY-A-5413) on P.A. site. I may order a set. Can not find specific info. on adjustments.
I would like to find a set of adjustable rings that are (steel). Not a fan of alloys and steel screws on alumminum threads. Wear becomes evident under the screw heads, and,…I stripped the threads on a riser on one screw, (on the female alloy thread).
Thanks, Chris
Chris USA
I just looked at those. They are aluminum when I was reading the PA description.
But I want to point something out why I don’t like that scope ring. It only has one screw that tightens the clamp to the dovetail. That is for sure a way for rings to move and yes even with the scope stop screw.
I have seen the back ring stay in place. But the front ring move and slide the whole scope in the back ring. In other words the back ring stays in place but the scope slid in the back ring.
That’s why I use the AirForce rings. They have 4 srews in each ring to hold the scope. And they have 2 screws that clamp the dovetail.
The more srews holding on a given surface the better chance you have for the rings to not move.
Chris USA
I should say those rings would be great for a PCP gun where you don’t have to worry about that double recoil shot cycle that spring guns have.
A moderate powered spring gun would probably even break those rings. Especially how it says they are adjustable for windage and elevation.
I would say a no go on springers. But that’s just my opinion.
GF1,
Wow,…how did I miss that ? I was so interested in the adjustments, I forgot to take a closer look at the clamps. I would have been uber-bummed ! Thanks,…..Chris
Chris USA
Look up the AirForce high rings. They may work for you.
And here’s another little trick I do.
I buy two sets of rings for difficult spring guns. Use bothe rings if you have enough room on the scope tubes.
If you don’t have enough room use both if the rings that have the scope stop set screw. Use one in the back as normal. Then use the other one up front. Tight your side screwws for the dove tails then tighten up both stop set screws.
The scopes usually won’t move if you do that.
And I save the two rings that don’t have the stop set screws for my pcp guns were movement of the rings is not critical.
Ok I’m outta here. Times a tick’n away and I got to shoot. It will be Monday before we know it. 🙂
GF1,
Good tips,…no doubt,..the shorter scopes would be a no-go with that idea,….have fun.
Chris USA
Right small scopes would be problem. It’s just a trick for them problem child guns you know what I mean.
Some guns you have to just show them who’s boss at times. 😉
GF1,
Ended up ordering a high and med. set to try out on the Hawke 1″ (Leapers/UTG brand). That’s the ones I have on the TX,…so far, no problems. I did not care for the torx screws on the Air Force brand. The seemed to be wore out. I did get a better set of torx bits though. Stanely fold outs. I got the SAE and MM already and have held up fine.
Got a reason you like the Air Force brand ? The top half of the ring does wrap around more/different than a traditional ring.
Also got that little rubber cocking lever “bumper” for the TX. Will try some silicone or something this time to help it stay put.
Shopping and shooting today. Supposed to another nice one. Later, Chris
Chris USA
I do like how the AirForce top rings wrap around.
And for some reason the way they machine the dovetail hard side of the ring ckamp helps center the rings better than other scope rings. I usually stay pretty centered on my windage adjustments with the AirForce rings.
I think I mentioned that before to you.
GF1,
Yea, you probably did mention that before. I will keep them in mind. As they “bend”,..maybe more of a fuller contact / full grip situation ? Makes sense.
As for today,…4×10 with the TX and LGU. Put it this way,….I did not even bother to set up the 50 yarder,…… 🙁 Chris
P.S.,….send me a pic sometime of your chair/backrest set-up. After 80, my back has about had it,…even with breaks.
Chris USA
I just turn the chair so one of the front legs is pointed towards the bag or gun rest.
Then lean my back on the the side of the backrest of the chair.
And sounds like your pretty tensed up when you shoot.
Gunfun1,
All I have is the 953 brake, front ramp, a drill and Dremel but I gotta buddy that has access to all kinds of equipment and generally likes little projects like this.
😉
Reb
I would say yes. Why not. That would be a nice little set up for people that like open sights.
No I was gonna save my money for the show but I don’t wanna miss out again and I would prefer something that could be used in competition.
I’m wary of the pinned pivot but I think the sights should be doable with some research.
and just bouncing ideas around. 🙂
Reb
Here is some of my shooting results. And BB did say go ahead and tell about the gun. So I will say some of my shooting results. But also lets also see what BB’s accuracy results will be.
First I think it’s going to be safe to say the M8 is not a 50 yard gun with any pellet I have tryed. The FWB 300s will blow the M8 away at any distance.
Here’s the pellets I have tryed so far.
Falcons, Superdomes, H&N feild target and my trusty ole JSB 10.34’s.
And as it goes the the JSB 10.34’s have showed the best results for me.
I tryed shooting all pellets at 50, 35, 25 and 15 yards. Out past 25 yards all pellets seem to through more flyers the farther the distance was that I shot.
At 25 yards the JSB’s were clearly the winner.
I thought the gun was going to group out at farther distances when I first got it. It would throw the flyers but I thought it was because of random dieseling. The gun is over the deisaling now with I would say close to 350 or more shots through it.
My take on what the gun is going to be is a nice little gun that you can teach kids with. Let them shoot at some cans at 25 yards with a scope on it. That way they can even learn how scopes work.
It’s going to be a fun little back yard friendly gun that you can pop balloons with or hit cans or milk bottles or 2 liter soda bottles with.
It’s not going to be a power house hunting gun that can hold 1″ or under groups out at 35 yards or more.
It’s a fair priced gun that if you treet it right and lubracate it right should last.
And I should mention that there is a half round notch machined in the bottom of the barrel that seats on the pin in the breech. I think when the chisel detent catches it forces the barrel into a solid locked position. So if there was side to side movement from the barrel when its open you will not see or feel that when the barrel is locked up and closed.
I think that’s part of the secret why the gun is easy to cock.. The gun will have its wear spots but as it goes anything can be fixed when the time comes if you try hard enough.
And again let’s see what BB’s accuracy results will be.
This is the gun I was gonna give my nephew for his next birthday seeing how I missed the Bronco for his last one.
I do plan to be certain it’s ready for him when he gets it and a stock of the pellets I find it likes best.
Gunfun1,
Had a good day today,…3 sessions, 125+ shots total. 2 guns. 25,30 and 50.
Did try the the JSB 14.35 for the first time in the TX. I’ll be doing the 100 test from now on,.. which is about 2 sessions,…40@25 or 30, 10@50 and 5 at the can@50 (that’s my reward). 😉
Overall, not bad. More ususal than anything to “write home about”.
Hey, for general lubrication, cocking linkage and such,…what would you recommend ?
Chris USA
I like the RWS silicone oil even on my spring guns. It’s good in pcp guns where you have to watch for a kaboom with high pressure.
So you know me as I say simple but effective. I don’t like to have to buy multiple items or have to make room for them.
There is probably other lubricants people like. Again it’s just my weird way of thinking.
GF1,
Even on metal to metal (joints) ? Might work. I have heard a light motor oil is good,..as you you use in cars, mowers, etc. I was not talking about compression oil,…just general lube/oil.
Chris USA
Yep that’s what I use.
GF1,
Full synthetic,…of course ! Only the “best” for my “babies”…… 😉
The RAV 4 takes 0-20 full syn……of course,…you being the car “buff”,…you already know that. 😉
I believe Air Venturi has a
moly paste that will rub into the metal like wax on paint.
I lubed everything except the leather seal on my QB-36 with some heavy moly based open gear lube and it works it’s way into the metal like tacky graphite for a clean, lint and dust free finish that lasts.
Reb,
Yup,…on tear down,….the Moly get’s used where ever I can put it.
“Proper” areas,…..of course.
My 618 petered out @ about 25yds pushing little Daisy wadcutters so those JSB’s oughtta be packing about twice that punch.
Reb
Oh yea its just the right velocity to put a thump’n to the can.
We’ll have to see what happens at the show
🙂
Reb
Save your money or better yet. Hit the lottery.
Could you just imagine all the toys we could get.
GF1,
” Kid in a candy store”,….play it 2x a week. 1$ each. Still playin’…. 🙁
Reb
Me too twice a week. I have hit little dollar amounts. Nothing big at all.
But I’m still try’n.
I’m gonna win that thing one of these days darn any way.
Chris USA
Sorry. Thought I was answering Reb.
Hey you guys,…..
This week, while at work,…I was thinking back on all the fun, friends and learning I have found here.
But,….I have “a bone to pick”,… 😉 …think back 8~9 month’s ago,….”Newbie” me had visions of slaying scores of groundhogs with the “ultimate” TX200,….even before I got one,.or,…figured out that I had a LOT of practice to do. 🙁
(I asked the question),….” I am afraid that if I get a springer,..the air will bleed off by the time I have a groundhog to shoot at,..as,..I want to cock it first, so as not to spook anything while hunting “. ( or close to that )
The answers I got were something to the effect of:….” I don’t think there would be much of a drop in pressure”,..and,…” There might be some, but not enough to matter”,..and my favorite,..” Test it and see”….
(No one) told me that a springer does not make ANY air pressure untill the trigger is pulled, even after it is cocked.
Yes,..I can look back and laugh,..I do it often. 😉
If it was an “inside joke”,…I got it. Took a while,…..but I got it ! 😉 (also took a while to remember it !)
Luv ya’ all,…..Chris
Glad to see you’re learnin’
😉
Chris USA
Did you ever have to go to the back of the class and sit in the corner facing the wall.
Remember kids read the blog.
Wow why am I saying that right now. Who am I.
GF1,
On “the edge”, I know,…..No excuse,…..but Reb’s timing and comment were priceless !
I “had” to go “there”. 🙁 Sorry B.B.,….bad, bad, boy 🙁
Chris,
I deleted it.
B.B.
B.B.,
Sorry,…won’t go “there” again. (loud and clear)
Chris,….:(
It’s all good!
🙂
GF1,
Mmmmm,….let me think,…???? As best as I can remember,…it was straight to the Principal’s office.
But really,..I will behave. Really,…I will !…..ok,..I will TRY to… As long as Reb does not do “that” again !
Perfect wording, perfect timing ,….a “dry” sense of humor,…pure “Bait”,…and I “bit”.
Chris USA
No back of the room. They learned if they sent me to the office I ended up not making it there.
😉
Reb,
:),…just had to say it,…. did’nt ya’,…… 😉
😀
You shoulda been here to witness my meltdown.
It took a couple days after a 2 week hospital stay before I could recall I had done something I needed to apologize for.
Think I got banned.
Reb
That wasn’t a good time for you.
But I knew it would all come back to you.
I don’t think you got banned. But I think you kept poor Edith buisy.
Hi folks,
I have finished a draft of the FWB300 disassembly guide translation and I’m now working on the FWB150 material.
There is one detail that you guys could clear up for me:
Is it true that the 150 lacks an anti-beartrap device?
Stephan
CptKlotz,
Sorry, can’t help you on an answer. I’m sure your efforts will be greatly appreciated by FWB 150 and 300 owners. I did look it up in the “Blue Book”,…listed, but no picture.
My Uncle studied German and ended up working for a company called Schuller (sp?). They make giant presses. He translated technical manuals for them. I know sentence structure changes from language to language. Throw in technical terms, and you got you hands full.
Quite the task,….Chris
All,….
A scope ring shimming tip,…..I found that a toothpaste tube,…cut open and cleaned,..made for quite a nice shim.
It has some “squish” to it, forms easy, and grips nice. Just an idea……Chris
Excellent idea!
Chris, Mr. Rob–Not such a good idea — Thin aluminium (or steel) makes better shims. For example- I zero in my rifle in the early spring. Now it is a hot day in June or July. I take my rifle out of my air-conditioned ( 68 degree ) house and 1 hour later I am in a field, temp 95 degrees, and the rifle is in direct sunlight. Will your shim expand or contract at the same rate and amount as a shim made out of the same kind of metal as the rings? Will your rifle keep its zero? For short ranges you probably won,t know the difference. But when the shots are at longer ranges, you might see a difference. If the rifle has strong recoil, the scope might rotate in the rings or move forward. Better still, don’t use shims. Look up the Burris signature rings and see why they are a better solution. Ed
Hello everyone!
i was wondering if the Bronco/M8 style or airgun the would have enough power to knock over some homemade(wood) field targets at say 10, 20 maybe 30yrds?
Was thinking this would be a nice small the whole family could have some fun with.
Chachoze,
W4lcome to the blog.
A good field target can be knocked down with 3 foot pounds of energy. So the answer to your question is yes. If the targets are made well and don’t stick, an M8 should drop them at 50 yards.
B.B.
Very encouraging!
Good to know, thanks for the reply. After reading my previous post I can see I need to stop writing posts with my iPhone…lol
I’ve been following your blog for about a year know and have to say that one of the bright spots in my day is when I see a new BB blog entry pop up on my rss feed ticker. 🙂
I also would like to pass along my condolences to you and your family for your recent loss.