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“Flag City Toys that Shoot” airgun show

by B.B. Pelletier

Blog reader derrick38 sent me these 14 images and descriptions from the “Flag City Toys that Shoot” annual show in Findlay, Ohio. These pictures originally debuted on Another Airgun Blog, which is written by Nick Carter and derrick38, but we wanted to give the show some extra exposure. If you’ve never made it to this show, it looks like it’s grown into quite a to-do and is worth attending. Maybe I’ll make it to the next one!

If you’ve never visited Nick and derrick38’s blog, you’re in for a treat, especially if you like to see the work of talented people who are able to machine and create airgun parts. Since I’m vastly unskilled in this area, I bow to their expertise.

If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me.

Bloggers must be proficient in the simple html that Blogger software uses, know how to take clear photos and size them for the internet (if their post requires them), and they must use proper English. We’ll edit each submission, but we won’t work on any submission that contains gross misspellings and/or grammatical errors.

Now, it’s show time!

by derrick38


The show opened at 9 am, and by 10 it was pretty crowded.


Lots of interesting stuff.


Note from B.B.: A contemporary ballflask pistol. If I had to guess, I would say it looks like it was made by Mike Reames of Ohio.


Note from B.B.: The bottom pistol looks like a Daisy FEG 92 to me.


About half the show was cap guns and BB guns. Someone had a stack of folded-metal Daisy bayonets marked $200 EACH!


Quite a few Hammerli airguns. More than I’ve very seen in one place before.


Note from B.B.: This was my first 10-meter pistol…a Diana model 10 target pistol (bottom gun).


Walther and Hammerli target pistols.


A Brown pneumatic. It was tagged at $1,350.


I bought this S&W 78G for $100. It was holding gas at the show. I took it outside and shot it a couple times. Allegedly, it had been holding gas since Thursday night. As I was shooting this picture on my deck, WHOOOOSH! Sounded like the valve stem seal. The seal on the cap appears original. So, I assume all the seals need to be replaced. Shouldn’t be a problem.


Look familiar? I bought every single “Airgun Letter” issue Ken Reeves had for sale. I already had a few, but friends have “borrowed” a couple here and there, and I probably never had more than 6 or 7 to begin with. I think this was actually my best score at the show.


Pyramyd Air sold only dented tins of pellets. They gave me the Pellet Pen loader on the left for buying 3 tins of .20 cal JSB Exacts. They brought rifles for display and took orders for them. Got the Vorteks from another vendor. Have never been able to find them in .22 cal before–not that I’ve actively looked. I’d always heard they were never made available. Obviously, that’s not true.


On the way out, I spied this box with a Daisy 790. It was touted as being complete. The price was pretty cheap, and I figured I could send it to Nick Carter or use it as parts for the 78G I’d just bought if it wasn’t all there. It’s not.


Note from B.B.: This is the frame and barrel housing of the Daisy 790, which was the final iteration of the S&W 79G.

67 thoughts on ““Flag City Toys that Shoot” airgun show”

  1. AJ & AlanL

    I removed the rear sight from the Bronco and took the bent piece that has the notch cut into it and flattened it out slightly by pushing a board down on top of it. It will not give you much, but it was enough to get me on the bullseye at 10 yards. I hope this helps.

  2. Tunnel Engineer

    Your Disco experience seems similar to mine (including pump issues.) When I first received the gun I shot it with open sights at plinking distances, and was happy with the accuracy. I finally mounted a scope and sighted it in– shot some pretty acceptable groups. Then I put it away, as it was a present for my wife. She happily plinked away for awhile, but seems to have lost interest.

    I dragged it out to shoot some groups and quickly became exasperated. 2 fliers for every 5 shots, yet 3 pellets would sometimes go through the same hole. As BB says, "It wants to shoot."

    After much soul searching, I finally narrowed it down to 3 separate issues.

    1. Mine simply hates to chamber certain pellets. Slide the bolt forward and the skirt becomes helplessly mangled by trying to enter the barrel canted. I must be very careful when sliding the bolt forward even for its favorite pellet, which used to be the cheap Crosman pointeds in the milk carton. Now it likes CPLs. CPHs are OK, but don't match the CPLs.

    2. The barrel was filthy. I did a partial dissasembly (very easy) which allowed me to clean the barrel from breech to muzzle using JB's nebcc. It was by far the messiest barrel cleaning I have performed.

    3. The scope I put on originally was too big, and the wife didn't care for it. I replaced it with a much smaller scope that was non AO. I should have known better, but didn't. My POA would change with just the slightest head movement or inconsistant cheek weld.

    After addressing all these things it is shooting very well indeed. It isn't the most accurate Disco out there I'm sure, but pretty darn good. If I ever get around to it, I will recrown the barrel.

    What was the springer breakdown? I must have missed that one.

  3. Derrick38,
    Thanks for sharing, looks like an interesting show. Maybe next year…

    While a constant reminder of how untalented I am, I always enjoy reviewing your and Nick’s blog also.

  4. Slinging Lead,

    Simplicity is genius. And as Einstein once said, "make it as simple as it should be, but not simpler." Your solution for the rear sight is pure genius. Thank you!


  5. BB,
    Are you answering comments yet?

    On your review of the 888 I asked some questions. It was probably during the height of your hospital situation so they went unanswered.

    Concerning the 888:
    First off this gun has piqued my interest. Some questions:

    1. PA add says to purchase fill device from Daisy yet I found it on the PA site. Something need updated or is this not really compatible? I'd much prefer to order from PA. Here's the one I found there and it mentions the 888:


    Will this work with the 12 oz CO2 bottles? If not, will the one Daisy sells work with them?

    2. What's the difference between the 888 and the 887? Stock/sight only?

    3. Sounds like 100's of shots off a 2.4 oz bottle. Then, if I can fill it from a 12oz bottle I'll get approx 5 times the 100's of shots? Sounds too good to be true, but if true, is a deal maker.


  6. Derrick38,

    great pics and report.

    I best stay away from places like that. I'm focused on field target pieces that our club can shoot too… so a place like that would be a huge distraction:-)


    Wow dude, what a great buy! .. and addition to your ever growing collection. 3 for the price of two… or less:-).. and all great pieces in their own right! I almost went for the long barrel, but I'm thinking strongly about having Tim make me a bench rest USFT in .22cal.

    Last night he stopped by on his way south with a new pickup, to replace the one that got wrecked. He was telling me about a deal he made with a US manufacture of barrels, so his guns will now be all American!.. and he believes, even more accurate, if that is possible!

    We'll be talking more about it this weekend at LDs fun match at his ranch in Temecula….

    Whoopee! …a weekend with guns, gun tradin and talkin.. oh shooting too:-)

    Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range

  7. BG_Farmer/Frank B: Amen! I could blast cans and jugs full of water all day, and that’s with “regular” airguns and rimfires. With a big DAQ, you probably couldn’t wipe the grin off of my face, or pry the DAQ from my hands. The only comparably entertaining use for plastic soda bottles is to pop them with dry ice rather than a projectile. It’s Mostly Harmless with some common sense safety precautions, but sounds like a car bomb or something! For remote camping trips, dry ice in the cooler is mandatory equipment, and not just to keep the steaks cold!


  8. The law as it stands in the UK is that a private individual would not be allowed to sell an Air gun to another private individual at such a show.
    Unless at least one is a registered dealer that is.
    All transactions concerning air guns must in theory involve a registered dealer at some point.
    What happens in reality is of course a different matter.
    Unfortunatly though,the chances now of an ordinary fella finding an air gun 'gem' at any kind of public sale is now pretty much zero as a result.
    Great pictures though,
    Many thanks,

  9. First, Welcome back BB!

    Next, I need to ask all you HW45 or Beman P1 owners (and BB) for some help. I've recently started shooting an HW45, with really really bad results. I've been shooting a Beeman P17 (low cost P3 clone), which I quite like. I can group at 10 meters with the P17 a bit smaller than a quarter with the open sights, Consistently. (I know, that's not great but I'm no match shooter).

    My results with the HW45 are completely different. I can't get it to group at all, shots all over in about a 4 inch scatter (again at 10 meters). This is horrible. I've heard others write about dismay upon first shooting the P1/HW45, and achieving good results eventually. I know it is hold sensitive, but regardless of my attempts; still really bad results. Can anyone offer any help?

  10. GengisJan,I can assure you, you do not own enough face for said grin!Can you imagine a 450gr hollowpoint with 550ft.lb. of stank on it smashing the target?How about a swaged .457 roundball going through the face of a mason block from 50yds and the second splitting it in two!?This is a PCP of mythic performance.I wish you all could shoot it,I really do.

  11. Wayne,you are funny….I saved a good bit of money on all three,but as you know they don't give away DAQ's!Even if you buy two….please let me know when you want to borrow the long .25.Of course it is yours for the asking!Good shooting this weekend,wear something under the grass skirt:0!

  12. MR.B,as for your questions from yesterday….the answers are still in the mail,but when my 3-pack arrives that is a question I have as well.We will both know soon.

  13. Chicken Little (and everyone else who contributed),

    The Mythbusters addressed your question straight on with a test. They tried to get firearm ammo to cook-off inside an oven. I know it gets hot in Texas, but even in Texas in the summertime it does not get "oven hot."

    Think about this…our troops in Iraq carry loaded weapons in the heat of summer in unairconditioned vehicles where the AMBIENT is over 110 deg. F. They don't have a problem with ammo cook-off. Texas law enforcement has the same problem that you do. Hot car & loaded gun. They may take their sidearms when they move out of the car, but that 12-gauge & that AR15 can stand in the sun for hours without a cook-off. So, my answer to you is this: this is not a problem.

    CO2 cooking off: This is different & does happen. The most common cook-offs will be with paintball tanks because they have a safety burst disk. I know of many occasions where this happened in Maryland, let alone Texas. With sealed cartridges, like 12- and 88-gram, the danger would be higher because there is no safety burst disk. So, we need to pay attention to CO2 safety in summertime car storage.

    B.B. Pelletier

  14. derrick38

    I am going to go out on a limb, and say I was a little disappointed with today's guest blog. It did not contain near enough of your excellent writing.

    You're slipping man!;^)

  15. Derrick38,

    Thanks for the show. I expect that I will only experience gun shows virtually; they do look like fun.

    Is it true that at firearms shows, you can buy and sell on the spot without working through FFL holders? That would be a great savings from hassle and a real temptation.

    Regarding ammo cook off, I asked the staff of a gun store if there was a danger in transporting home some ammo in a hot car. How they laughed, like this was the silliest question in the world. When they were finally able to speak again, they told me that ammo will only cook off at 400+ degrees Fahrenheit. The exact number they gave me had a ring of certainty. On the other hand, these are gun store workers….

    On a related note, at the blackpowder workshop that I attended, a speaker said that modern gunpowder will explode from heat alone while blackpowder needs a spark. He knew because his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend had set fire to his garage where he stored his reloading supplies and the modern ammo exploded while the blackpowder did not. I suppose that this is a point in favor of the reliability of blackpowder.

    Chuck, I am so impressed with your car repair. In my automotive book, I am on the part about ignition systems and man is this complicated. The basic idea seems to be coils of wire that cause a magnetic field to "collapse" which induces a spark to ignite gasoline. There's a lot of talk about the "Hall effect" and optical sensors. Actually working on this stuff is beyond believing.


  16. SL….wtg ..I was thinking about filing the rear sight notch (lower) on a Bronco, but flattening it out seems to work too.

    My Disco is picky on pellets….seems to like the Eun Jin points 32.4, but they fit very tight and hard to load. The predator ploymags work well too. As for pointed pellet they are better suited for shorter distances, but those two pellets gave me the best groups so far.

    I'm thinking about usings a small cone sanding bit to open up the loading end of my disco's barrel to get the eun jins to load more easily because I like their performance a lot.

  17. Chuck,

    I think the difference is the sights. Of course, you've already noticed that the sights are different.

    With the advent of the new Challenger 2010 and Edge rifles, I think we should soon see some real good prices on the 887 & 888. I doubt they'll be around much longer for competitive uses. Either one should make a fine rifle for you.


    Note from Edith: The descriptions about the fill stations not being available from Pyramyd Air are incorrect & will be changed later today.

  18. Bristolview,

    Assuming a .177 cal pistol, my first suggestion is to shoot it only on high power. The low-power setting tends to cock things up.

    My pellet recommendation would be Crosman Premiers…and then anything else. And that would be a 7.9 gr. Premier.

    As for the hold sensitivity, I assume you've read my issues about shooting the HW45. It's very much the same as shooting a 1911 Colt. The only pressure is straight back with the middle finger against the web of your hand. All other fingers are just along for the ride, with the exception of the index finger on the trigger. Let the gun bump & buck as much as it wants, which is very similar to the rifle artillery hold. That's what both this and a Colt 1911 pistol need.


  19. Slinging Lead,

    This wasn't initially intended to be a blog. This was an email to BB when he was still in the hospital. I was hoping Edith could take in the laptop and it would cheer him up as well as keep him in the loop. The lack of captions was largely because I thought they would be superfluous. As if BB wouldn't know what all those guns are!

    I don't remember even looking at the price on the ball-flask pistol. I'm reluctant to handle guns w/o asking the owner's permission and he was attending to other real customers.

    I was bummed that Volvo couldn't go. I know he would have had a good time.

    Anyone within a few hours drive time should seriously consider coming to this show next year.

    Thanks again BB for posting this today.


  20. Donkeyscrump

    I don't know what it is, but your explanation of the foot cozy gave me an intermittent fit of giggles that could not be contained.

    I'm not sure if I should tell you this, but I live in Georgia. My county MUST issue me a concealed/carry weapon permit if I apply for one, unless there is a prohibitive factor in my record. The fee is $60. This includes fingerprinting and background check.

    There is no gun registration required. (Yet)

    There is a gun show somewhere around Atlanta, or the metro areas once a month at least.

    At the gun show you will find all different types, to put it mildly. Some dealers will have you fill out a form, with name, address, drivers license# etc. By signing, you agree not to shoot anyone, at least as long as you are at the show.

    Some sellers will request your name for their receipt. Any name will do.

    Other sellers are private individuals who paid their $7 to get in, and had their weapons checked as they entered, by the local PD. They are free to sell their firearms to whomever they please, dealers or show attendees. Paperwork? No.

    Keep in mind, if you attempt to enter the show with a loaded firearm you will be "escorted from the show…" You catch my drift? Chambers are checked and if the weapon can be disabled with a zip-tie they will do so.

    Despite the state's cavalier attitude toward gun ownership, it is not like the 'wild west'. Gun related deaths and violence are lower than comparable states with more restrictive gun laws.

    Most cities have ordinances prohibiting actually firing your gun, within city limits, without sufficient cause. Country folk can shoot to their hearts content.

    America would love to have you Dave, but I think England needs you more.

  21. Matt61,

    Most states permit the sale of firearms from one owner to another without paper. Some do not. The state of Maryland, for example, requires all sales to go through an FFL and the Maryland State Police.

    Here in Texas, we can not only sell direct to other Texas, we actually have a website called TexasGunTrader.com, where we not only sell what we have to other Texans. Sales have to go from one state resident to another state resident. In Montana, there's a law that no FFL transactions need paperwork for guns made & retained in Montana. Other states, including Texas, are considering passing the same sort of legislation.


  22. BB, on the 1077. I have no experience shooting airguns, and I have only fired a Red Ryder. I'd like a rifle that shoots relatively flat, but have no idea what a gun such as the 1077 can do? Is 575 fps (I know it's rated at 625 but some of the weather I'd be shooting in would be a bit chilly) enough to shoot rather straight at, say, 20 yards? And would there be huge adjustments from to yards to 20? I'm tired of aiming 10 feet over my target with the Red Ryder.

  23. BB Re Gun Show sales etc

    Idaho does the same, we don't do FFL or other Fed Mandates on guns produced and sold within Idaho. Pretty much ignore all ATF and Fed stuff short of silencers and full autos.

    You can also buy a pistol and take it home when you leave the store and… CCWs are issued post-haste after application and shooting test.

    Brian in Idaho

  24. BG_Farmer

    You are quite right. I need to spend less time buying and more time shooting. I definitely have a lack of discipline (ask anyone of my unfortunate teachers.) As far as imagination, I think that I have too much, it's what gets me into trouble.

    I don't buy new airguns because I think I've mastered my old ones, or because I think THIS will be the one that will make me a great shooter. I buy them because I am curious and impulsive.

    I could be more than happy for the rest of my life with the guns I have purchased already.

    My current financial situation will force me to be so for quite awhile. no big deal. I have lots of guns and pellets to see me through.

    Per your suggestion, I will be exploring the prone, and sitting FT positions.

  25. Slinging Lead:
    The British establishment has always had an aversion to private gun ownership but things have got really silly.
    The lunatics do run this asylum called Britain now.
    Rather than investigate what has changed in society to cause a man to go on the rampage with a gun.
    Our government largely bans most guns instead.
    Rather than fix a social problem or punish the guilty criminals, they take the route of least resistance and make 99.9% of responsible gun owners suffer.
    Sorry to get political, but it is BECAUSE of the slack discipline and low standards forced on us all by the liberal left which is the root cause of most social and criminal problems in the first place.
    Rather than admit defeat.
    The Liberal lefts response is to legislate,regulate and ban things. So determined are they to make THEIR useless methods work.
    Sorry for the rant.
    I will keep an eye out for another foot cozy Slinging lead:)

  26. HK

    If you are shooting in the chilly, CO2 guns just aren't for you.

    Would you like to try a deadly accurate break-barrel springer? Try the Air Venturi Bronco. I had one, loved it, and gave it to my 14 year old nephew.

    If you really want a repeater, I would strongly suggest the Daisy Powerline 953. It is a single-stroke pneumatic with impeccable accuracy for the price. It has fiber optic sights and a plastic stock. If you can come up with a few more bucks, you could get the Daisy 853c, which has a wooden stock and Lothar Walther barrel. This rifle would be competitive in 10 meter competition. If you don't believe me, ask ajvenom.

  27. Dave in The UK

    I guess the one upside to the UK gun restrictions is the fantastic amount of air gun literature and magazines and dedicated air gun stores throughout O'l Blightey!?

    I really enjoy reading Airgun World and all of the adverts and shop info.
    Still, it seems an FAC is needed for anything over 12 ft lbs, so not easy for the average man to enjoy the high powered guns right?

    Brian in Idaho

  28. Matt61,

    I can only speak for gunshows that I've attended in Tennessee and Mississippi as the laws vary by state.

    In both states, it's perfectly legal to sell a gun to someone in a private transaction w/o an FFL being involved. The typical scenario is selling to a friend, relative, or just someone who answered an ad in the paper. Consequently, there are always folks walking around the arenas with guns slung over their shoulder for sale or trade. Legally, this is no different than the scenarios mentioned above. The presence of the gunshow itself doesn't render illegal what would otherwise be legal and vice versa. Nothing magical about gunshows in that sense. For safety reasons, the organizers generally do require a weapons check at the door. All that I have ever seen were ziptied and unloaded while on the premises.

    Now, the dealers running the tables all will do the FFL dance just as if you had stepped into their shops on a warm spring day. Again, the location of the transaction doesn't affect it's legality per se, as I understand things. Most of the dealers that I have seen at gunshows were equipped with computer access so that they could handle not only the background checks but also credit cards just like you were in their storefront. There are also tables with folks who don't run storefronts selling guns as well, and I've always assumed that they were FFL holders and followed the proper protocols. I've never tested this assumption, so caveat emptor.

    Hope this helps,


  29. Thanks for the info about gun legality and FFLs. I don't think that California is the place for you guys. I need to make three separate in-person appearances (at considerable inconvenience and expense) at the store to purchase a gun which includes the background check. My new place offers training/advice on how to get a CCW license. I asked the attendant if he could give me an idea of the qualifications you need, and he said they were pretty stringent. It seems like someone almost has to have a contract out on you.

    B.B., glad you're commenting, but don't push it too hard even when dictating. The word is that Florence Nightingale, after contracting chronic fatigue syndrome from her labors in the Crimean War, worked several secretaries to death while remaining bedridden. Be nice to your secretary.


  30. Brian:
    Unfortunatly Britain is not awash with good airgun stores.
    They do exist though and funny enough it was BB who pointed me in the right direction to a superb tune up and parts supplier here in the UK.
    I used to think the 12ft/pound limit was a problem but having read this blog for a while i'm learning power is not the be all and end all.
    Not saying though that I wouldn't love to own or fire an air rifle that's more potent:)
    The airgun industry in the UK survives by having to constantly adapt to new laws or new regulations.
    The customer is always unsure what the latest laws are as well.
    A very hostile environment to make,sell or buy airguns but we survive.

  31. DaveUk/Donkey…

    Please stop reading my thoughts and writing them down in the blog, it is beginning to creep me out.

    In all seriousness, I could not agree with you more. In my country we have this thing called 'hate-crimes legislation'.

    Instead of vigorously prosecuting all sickos and predators, the government selectively prosecutes crimes committed against protected groups. I am not in a protected group, so I could be strung-up, beaten, and set on fire, and it would be treated as arson.

    What we have here is a society that is seeking to punish the thought, rather than the act. Those that need this concept explained to them, are beyond saving. George Orwell had nightmares about this sort of thing.

    The more we coddle the savages, of any stripe, the more they take over.

    The more that liberal policies fail, the more tax-payer dollars and philosophical leeway are given to them.

    What a coincidence!

    Personally, I think ALL of society's predators should get 10 years in the electric chair.

    Don't worry, be happy;^)

  32. B.B.
    Was just researching old posts specifically on the RWS 34. Noticed that your groups with that rifle look just like my groups from my 94! I was feeling really good about myself until I realized that yours were at 20 yards and mine at 10. I can either say your twice the shot I am, or that I'm half the shot you are – whichever sounds better! I realize that 20 yards is probably more than twice as difficult as 10, but I'm conveniently ignoring that to maintain some semblance of pride.

  33. B.B.
    Was just researching old posts specifically on the RWS 34. Noticed that your groups with that rifle look just like my groups from my 94! I was feeling really good about myself until I realized that yours were at 20 yards and mine at 10. I can either say your twice the shot I am, or that I'm half the shot you are – whichever sounds better! I realize that 20 yards is probably more than twice as difficult as 10, but I'm conveniently ignoring that to maintain some semblance of pride.

    Word verification 'whinin' – no joke.

  34. Slinging Lead,

    Thank you very much for your comments. I will try cleaning the barrell yet again. The pellet seating seems to be an issue indeed and I will be more careful in my next test set. I will try CP lights and see how it goes. That is surprising to me that yours like them! I do not think I have even tried them!

    My Gamo Whisper broke and before I fit it with a gas spring, I will just go get another springer. That will all have to wait


  35. Sorry. I'm always late, it seems, bringing up the rear. Regarding the Daisy 888 Medalist 10-meter rifle discussed on Thursday, April 08, 2010 (the one with the colorful laminated stock)… I was looking at the Kingman refill station used for dispensing co2 into the rifle's bulk fill tank. Can someone tell me the logistics of how Kingman's fill device for filling the Medalist's bulk-fill CO2 tank. Specifically, what I mean is this:

    If Daisy's threaded cylinder is rated at and designed for 2.5oz of co2, what does the refilling station (pictured in the post) regulate that? In other words, suppose the absolute capacity of the internal volume was large enough to hold 7.5 oz of fluid. What does the refill station do to prevent overfilling Daisy's threaded cylinder and putting more than the rated capacity of 2.5 ounces (weight) into the cylinder?

    Sorry if it's a stupid question. I'm not a shooter and have no direct experience with most of the interesting topics I read on this forum.

    Mike H

  36. Mike H,

    You're not understanding how CO2 works. There IS such a thing as regulating CO2, but not at this low a level (i.e., filling airguns). These guns accept their fill on the basis of physics, alone. When you connect a filling station to an empty cylinder, the empty cylinder will accept a fill until the internal pressure is equal to that of the filling station. If the reservoir is designed for 2.5 oz., you can be sure it won't accept 7.5 oz. Your major difficulty is going to be prechilling the reservoir so you're going to get a 2.5-oz. fill each time.

    I've done several blogs on bulk-fill CO2, which is what we're talking about. If you enter those search terms in the search box, you should come up with several past blog postings.


  37. HK,

    The 1077 is a very inexpensive, yet well-built CO2 rifle. As you pointed out, its velocity depends on the temperature. In 50-deg. F. weather, you can expect velocities in the high 400 fps range. That's how much of an influence temperature has on the pressure of the gas. If you don't want to miss your target by much at 20 yds, maybe we need to talk a little bit more. I can recommend quite a few spring air rifles that will be more appropriate for what you say you want to do. But, I'm not sure you know the questions to ask just yet. So, let's keep talking. It would be helpful if the rest of the blog members would please join in and help this new blog member get what he wants & what he needs.


  38. BB, thanks for the help. My dream gun would be a Benjamin 397 but at 14, I just don't have the money to spend $160. And, I don't know if you remember(probably not), but my mom will probably make me use either the copper coated pellets or the lead free ones("a health issue" – according to her). Since there are more lead free choices in .177, i'm sticking with that caliber. Your Bronco is great, but I'd like something that works off co2 or compressed air for the tolerance to all holds. Slinging lead recommended the Daisy 953, which sounds like a good choice to me. AS you can see, i'm a bit picky, but I'll only be able to afford one gun, so I want to make the right choice.


  39. I have a question concerning the regular Benjamin Trail NP compared to the Crosman NPSS that you reviewed some time ago. Are they the same rifle just re-branded? It looks like the Trail NP XL that you reviewed recently is a more powerful rifle, but the regular Trail NP looks to be the same spec as the NPSS. Trigger does look different than the NPSS. So, is what I'm looking at a NPSS (which I note has surprisingly been discontinued and I wonder why) with a trigger like the XL that you reviewed?

  40. HK,

    Both the Daisy 880
    and the Crosman 2104
    are multi-pumps like the Benji, and are both very accurate in their own right.
    They may have a little less power, but multi-pumps are the most versatile guns out
    there if you're going to be limited to just one. I started on the 880, so it's my personal favorite.
    Best of all, they are very well priced.


    BTW, B.B. has reviewed the .22 version of the 2104
    times and thinks highly of it.

  41. HK,

    You're doing a good job with research and asking questions.

    I'm going to agree with what has already been said about the 1077. Good gun for the money but in colder conditions CO2 guns will disappoint you since the velocity variation will change your point of impact. I would also vote against a C02 gun as your first since you need to factor in constant, non-stop purchase of C02.

    Have you read the 4 part series B.B. did on the daisy 953? If not here is the link to part 4. Click on parts 1-3 at the top to read them in order.


    I like your choice of the benjamin 397. A gun with great lineage, wood and metal and you can vary the power based on number of pumps of air you add. Save a little longer and buy what you want (397)you won't regret it.

    Do some extra chores for your neighbors and charge a fair price and you'll have the money in no time.


  42. HK,
    953 is a very fine choice… plan on buying a upgraded rear sight if you want to drive tacks. Not enough power to really use for hunting unless you mod the piston. Then maybe for small and very close rodents. JMHO… the 953 is not a gun to scope. A scope changes the fine balance.

    The 1377 is also a fine first choice. With the butt stock upgrade it becomes a fun small carbine that you can use for hunting. Lots of hop up parts you can make or buy to make the 1377 grow as you grow.


  43. HK,

    I second DB's recommendation of the 1377. I bought a 1322 (the .22 cal version, no longer available new) back in my late teens when all I could afford was one gun, and I still have it, love it, and use it about 25 years later. Amazing power for it's size when needed, but I do most of my shooting with it on 4 pumps.

    It is very versatile with the shoulder stock, and the trade off in quicker time between shots is made up in all season performance, variable power, and being always able to shoot as long as you have pellets (cheaper to use too). I do have a CO2 pistol (old Daisy 92), and being in a colder climate for half the year I can attest to its uselessness in the cold.

    Also, the lower power springers such as the Bronco are not as hold sensative as the higher power ones, and the extra work will make you a better shot too – so don't rule a high quality lower power springer out. You will definately shoot more often with a springer than any outher powerplant (except a repeating PCP with a tank, but I can't afford that yet either – and the "cost" ain't money).

    As for "non lead" pellets, I have had resonable success with the Beeman FTS Gold pellets (copper coated lead). They are not as good as regular FTS in my guns and they cost more, but are very good and will leave virtually no lead on your fingers – but still wash your hands after handling them.

    Alan in MI

  44. HK,
    If staying away from springers is what you want I second the motion for the 953. I have one and like it very much as it is easy to use, inexpensive and very accurate.

    I would recommend JSB Exact 8.4g pellets to start with. It is a single pump and at 14 you will be able to pump it ok. It is a gun that you can grow up with and use as an adult.

    I don't remember what you said you wanted to do with it but it is a dandy plinker and target shooter. It's ok for birds but anything larger you must be very accurate with head shots and no bigger than a squirrel and probably no farther than 20-25 yds. I don't hunt with mine so I can't speak on that subject very much. I use mine for 10m target exclusively. I have a .22 Marauder I'll be using for hunting when I get a round toit.

  45. Fused,

    Check to see that it's really the groups sizes you are comparing and not the appearance. Many of the groups on this blog are over/undersized. Throw in the variability of all our monitors and there is no way for a visual comparison.


  46. Fused,

    You asked if the Benjy Trail series is the same airgun as the Crosman NPSS. I'm pretty sure there are very close similarities.

    The reason the NPSS was discontinued was because Crosman appears to want to boost the Benjamin brand name, and that's where it looks like they're doing it. There was nothing wrong with the NPSS, which was branded as a Remington.


  47. B.B.
    I'm sure that's true and that your groups look bigger on screen than they really are. With the 94 I can get 3/8" groups relatively consistently but not every time.

    Thanks for the response on the NPSS – looks like the Remington is the way to go so as to keep the good trigger.

  48. HK,

    The 953 is a solid choice, and a great gun. Another you may want to consider is the IZH-61. It is a single stroke gun because it is a Springer), with amazing accuracy. It uses 5-shot self indexing clip like the 953. In my opinion, both of these are solid picks. I really love my IZH-61, I cannot outshoot its capabilities.

  49. got an email the other day sayin' Tom was back in the hospital how is he doing?
    I hope he has a speedy recovery
    For those of you interested on my adventure with the Idustry B3-2
    Well i tore it down and cleaned all the gunk out of it
    the instructions i found said be aware of the pins in the trigger they will fall out and ya know? they were right
    I removed the e clip from the sear so i could put it all back together and 2 pins for the trigger fell out
    now i am stuck
    how do i put the trigger back together any one have a step by step to show me how to do this?
    or a link to some one who can show me?
    Jerry D Kittle

  50. it sort of helped and sorta didn't
    the problem is getting the trigger and sear combo to line up right
    if i put the pins in for the trigger the sear will not go back into place so to put the pin in it

  51. Jerry,

    You'll get better response to your questions if you ask them on the most current blog posting. There are usually a week's worth of postings at/blog//, so you have to carefully page down to the end of the current day's post. If you simply jump to the bottom of the page and hit the 'Post a Comment' link, then you'll be asking on last week's post. There are only a few of us who'll even see your question if you do it that way.

    BTW, I've had the pins fall out also, and it was a learning experience. I hook the trigger and sear together, insert them into the trigger housing, insert the sear retaining pin, then insert the trigger retaining pin. The last pin is fiddly, so it helps to wiggle the trigger back and forth to get things to line up.

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