Mass production

by B.B. Pelletier

Update on Tom/B.B.: Things are still progressing nicely. He’s eating regular meals, walking unaided and calling home 8-10 times a day. We’re waiting for someone to make a decision on when he can be discharged.

Last week, I wrote several reports that asked our readers to take action of some kind. Many of you did, and upon doing so discovered things were not the way you may have thought. One of these lies in the area of pellet weight uniformity. Chuck wrote that he was surprised to discover a very significant weight variation in H&N Baracudas and Beeman Kodiaks. At the same time, he alerted us to the fact that the overall weight of these pellets is significantly below the 10.6 grains shown in their descriptions. We’re checking that out with the manufacturer right now.

Another customer wrote to Pyramyd Air and was even more astonished that there would be any variation whatsoever! So, today, I’d like to conduct a little exercise in variation amongst mass-produced products.


Pellets are made by machines, yet some people think they should all weigh the same.

Pellets are made of lead, which is an extremely dense, heavy substance. Even a tiny bit extra or missing makes a big impact on their weight. What about other products that I’m sure you all assume are uniform?

Your assignment is to buy a bag of plain M&Ms and weigh them on your powder scale. Now, they don’t make these by the millions…they make them by the billions. They’re the epitome of what we mean when we say “mass produced.” And, if you examine them, they’re also uniform.

The material they’re made from is much lighter than lead, so you would expect less weight variation from piece to piece. What do you find?

Okay, we all know that M&Ms are nothing but candy and there’s no need for absolute precision. So let’s move to an area where precision does matter. Over-the-counter drugs. It’s off the shelf, but wouldn’t you expect aspirin tablets to weigh the same tablet to tablet? So, surely somewhere in your house you can find some aspirin or other pain-relief tablets, weigh them and tell us what the uniformity is. Edith weighed 10 Aleve tablets, and found the weight ranged from 4.5 to 4.8 grains.


Steel BBs should weigh 5.1 grains.

Now, nothing could be more uniform than a sphere. Right? So, a steel sphere that’s the same size, sphere to sphere, has got to be the same weight. Right? So let’s go weigh some of those steel BBs you have. Find any variation? Edith weighed 10 of them and found they varied from 5.1 grains to 5.4…yet their advertised weight is 5.1 grains each.


If the weight of a CO2 cartridge varies, does that mean the CO2 level is different or the cartridge weight?

How about CO2 cartridges? You’ve not only got the cartridge but the CO2. Two things that could make the weight fluctuate. Edith weighed 10 from our stash, and the weights ranged from 43.07 grams to 44.33 grams. Do some have more CO2 than others? Or is that weight fluctuation in the cartridge? Maybe both?

There’s no end to this experiment. You can take it anywhere. Nothing that’s manufactured will be 100% uniform. Some things will be close, others not as close. But, until you get to something that’s hand-selected by weight, you’e probably not going to encounter uniformity. Modern pellets are as uniform as they can be made to be. Some companies go to extra lengths to make their pellets more uniform. But they’ll all have measurable variations.

135 thoughts on “Mass production

  1. So i will be first to make comment :)i am especially glad about Tom s progress and i am sending all off my best wishes to him -who knows maybe allong the way all around the world (this message must pass) some “Greater force”hear this and Tom comes home as helthier and as fastes he can and continue to write such good and interesting themes for all of us !-since i am not areally expert for that grams and grains stuff for my RWS 34 cal 22 ll stick to lighter pellets


  2. Great progress on Tom’s health this is great news.

    On the weight of mass produced things I think one of the prime example and that everyone knows about are tires and wheels, everyone as seen them weighted by the shop and almost everyone knows what happens when your missing one sometimes as small as 10 grams for a wheel weighting over 20 pounds.

    On another note I know it’s been answered before but I can’t seem to find it trough the blog search engine. I own a winchester (daisy) 1894 bb gun and it hasn’t been used in a few years and reading the red ryder blogs gave me the itch to get it out and shoot it but it needs some oil. The manual says to use 20 weight motor oil (how much does it really weight ? ;)) but It would feel kinda weird buying a whole quart for a few drops, can I use pellgun oil or something else ? or can 20 weight motor oil be bought in smaller and more practical container than a quart ?

    J-F



    • Another 20W oil source: If you’ve got an old-time hardware store nearby, they probably carry 3-in-1 20W electric motor oil. Note that this is *not* the 3-in-1 household oil. The front of the container will say “electric motor oil”.


      • I think that (3n1 electric motor oil) is the best suggestion yet, closest to what is specified, and should come in small bottle or can.

        Also, perhaps a neighbor has some 10W30 sitting around the garage. It should be closer to 20W than 30W or PellgunOil (which newly discovered documents make clear is 30W diesel rated oil with “exceptional detergency”; sorry, BB). 30W is quite a bit more viscous than 20W. Since they specify less common 20W, I would try to get 20W or the closest I could.


        • Thanks to everyone who helped me on this, I was able to find some 20W 3-in-1 electric motor quite easily at the hardware store and I later found some at Wal-Mart so it’s pretty easy to find (once you know what you’re looking for ;)).
          I also bought a few thousand bb’s and some CO2 cartridges to bring the old ppk out.
          Warm weather is so much fun. πŸ˜€

          Since I’m scoping my bronco I removed the iron sights on it and it looks so much better that way and while I’m on the scoped bronco subject, in the airgunweb review by Rick (on youtube) he’s holding the rifle by the scope, won’t this risk damaging the scope ? The rifle isn’t very heavy and the scope mount can certainly stand up to the task but what about the scope ?

          J-F


        • Don’t use detergent oil in airguns! The detergent will take out the seals.
          If you don’t want to use Pellgun Oil, then use 20W or 30W NON-DETERGENT oil. As far as I know, all multi-weight motor oils are detergent oils.

          I believe Pellgun oil is 20W non-detergent with a seal conditioner added.

          Les


          • Les,
            For a while, there was an MSDS on Crosman’s site that cited the oil they use as LE Monolec GFS 30W. That oil’s brochure claimed “exceptional detergency” as you would expect of a diesel rated motor oil. That made me cynical about the detergent destroying seals and the price of Pellgunoil. The only first hand account I ever saw of that happening was some guy who’s ancient B-B gun with rotten seals fell apart after he lubed it with detergent motor oil; imagine that — perhaps it would have fallen apart anyway:).

            The MSDS is no long available on Crosman’s site at least that I can find, but you can find some evidence and piece it together possibly by searching for “pellgunoil MSDS”.


  3. My brain hurts when i start to convert all that weight measures πŸ™‚ they are simply different here than where you are.I live on policy live and learn so i improvise for exemple- yust found best pellets for my airgun RWS HOBBY domed,they are easy,they stick to black on target enough for me!Before that i used GAMO MAGNUM energy pointed they were all over the target




        • C-S:

          “fps” = feet per second.
          “mps” = meters per second.

          1 fps = 0.3048 meters per second.
          1 mps = 3.28083989501312 feet per second.

          -AlanL


          • I’m sure that CS can do the math, it is just that it isn’t intuitive.

            As a quick test Alan, what is a comfortable room temperature in degrees Centigrade? Your body temperature in Centigrade?

            Herb


            • Math is not so important to me right now,buth- my DINERS card is always in negative number πŸ™‚ so -i am intuitive man i am VODOLIJA or how do you say for 11-th horoscope sign …..pozzz



            • Being in Canada we work in celcius here confortable weather is different from one person to the next of course and depends on what you’re doing in said temp but around 20 degres is nice and body temp is 37.2 (and very conveniently, water boils at 100 and freezes at 0).
              Weird how they show us all the metric system and it holds to everything exept for short and medium distances wich are almost always mesured in inches and ft, especially when talking about building and materials related to it.

              J-F


            • 21C is comfortable, tho’ you might want 22C in short sleeves. 30C is bloody warm.

              Body temp is 37-37.5C, which, in Sweden is the contents of a half bottle of spirits, usually called (in English) “Fever Free.”



  4. J-F,

    Do you have any other oil around the house? 3-in-1 perhaps? This will work as well. Personally I wouldn’t get hung up on 20 wt. What weight do you use in your car or lawnmower?

    kevin


    • I think vehicules both use synthetic 5w30 but since they don’t burn any I don’t really have some at home, I have an electric lawnmower and all my lubrication products are in spray (silicone, white grease and all purpose) this is startin to not look good… I don’t mind buying the stuff, the price doesn’t have anything to do with it, it’s just that buying a quart for a few drops seems overkill, it’s like renting a moving truck to bring a new tv home and I’m afraid using a syringe could end being pretty messy. But if 3-in-1 works that’s what I’ll use but the manual says “Use a “20” weight motor oil. Do not use light weight household-type oils.” wouldn’t 3-in-1 qualify as light weight household-type oils ?

      J-F


  5. J-F,

    Pellgun oil will be fine. It has the heavy viscosity of motor oil that they are asking for. Put it in the oil hole if present and add some down the barrel and allow it to sit on the butt for a couple days.


  6. Well, you know I have to “weigh in” on weighing pellets:-)

    A short story…

    I’m at the California state championship, and since I’m still figuring out my holdover (with a target dot scope!), I’m doing pretty poorly, about 50%. I’m shooting USFT#44 @ 12fpe and un-weighed JSB 8.44 pellets. Someone tells me a story about how, when Paul Cray took USFT#44 to world championship, Paul complained it was inconsistent. That’s on my mind as I’m shooting the course with Tim, who built the gun. Larry Durham, who designed and tuned the gun, is shooting in the next lane over. I take a shot at a 50 yard target set out in the sand, and see my pellet go over the top of the whole target! Now I know I didn’t aim that bad, and so, I ask Tim and Larry if my gun might need adjusting or something and tell them the story I heard.

    Larry says, I spent over 50 hrs tuning and adjust that gun for the world championships, and there ain’t nothing wrong with it! DO YOU WEIGH YOUR PELLETS? I say, well no.. Larry says “You have to weigh your pellets, they vary a lot” I told that to Paul, and I’m telling you now! He was right of course..

    Just yesterday, I weighed 3 tins of 500, Air Arms 4.52, 8.44 gr. They varied from get this, 7.6gr to 8.85grs!!! There are only a few in a tin that are on the extreme ends of the mix. Approx mix is: 8% under 8.25, 12% 8.30, 13% 8.35, 12% 8.40, 12% 8.45 (their target weight), 9% 8.5, 9% 8.55, 8% 8.60, 7% 8.65, 5% 8.70 and 5% 8.75 and over.

    So, now I can picture picking up one of those 7.60 gr. and having it fly over the top of the target!!! Experience wins again!

    Wacky Wayne,
    Match Director,
    Asland Air Rifle Range



      • BTW..
        Larry was also right that USFT#44 is shooting right on. With weighed pellets, while shooting from a bench rest, she was putting pellets in 1/4″-3/8″ groups at 50 yards!

        Now I have no excuses:-)… I’m even learning to “click” with the BSA Platinum 10-50×60 target dot scope and #44.

        But, I’m still using holdover with 20fpe USFT#6 and a mildot BSA platinum 10-50×60

        I’m not sure how this will play out, I just started the “clicking” learning process, but day one went fairly well… much better than my old hold over method with that target dot scope… but I’m already “going around too many times” when switching from a close to a far target… This game is tough:-)

        .. but fun and challenging as all get out!

        Wacky Wayne


    • Wayne,

      Thanks for the additional information. I couldn’t resist plugging some numbers into Chairgun. Assuming the 12 ft-lbs the JSBs are going about 800 fps for the nominal weight.

      The light pellet at 7.9 grains would go 0.82 inches higher if weight were the only consideration. (I’d suspect aerodynamic differences as well for a pellet so far from the norm…)

      With an 8.44 grain nominal weight, the difference in height is 1.52 inches per grain. So for pellets which differ by 0.1 grains, the spread would be 0.152 inches.

      Neither my equipment nor my skill is good enough for such marksmanship. But your comments indicated about 3/8 inch groups at 50 yards. So let’s assume that 0.375 inches is a 95% confidence interval or +/- 2sigma. Thus sigma is 0.094 inches.

      Now if the since the error due to all factors is rolled into the 0.094 inches, let’s figure that the error due to pellet weight should be 1/3 of the overall error. That way the pellet weight contributes a negligible amount to the overall error. That yields 0.054 inches for the standard deviation of the desired weight error. A +/- 2 sigma level will be 0.216 inches. Dividing 0.216 inches by our Chairgun coefficient yields a spread of 0.15 grains.

      This dovetails nicely with you comment that you can’t see a difference if you shoot a mix of 8.35 to 8.5 grains.

      Herb


      • The same sort of logic applies to the distance to the target. I didn’t do the math, but the pellet’s trajectory is almost 45 degrees down at 50 yards. So to keep a 0.2 inch window around distance, you have to accurately know the distance within 0.5 yards at 50 yards.


  7. I must admit Wayne i was astonished when you wrote 50 yards and then i have done some investigation on the internet -it is a field target competition and you can use 17 or 22 cal).Gun is scoped therfore you must weigh your pellets hard work πŸ™‚ I think that is more simple without scope 10 meter oldfashion way


    • Yes, 50 yards makes a huge difference. Weighing pellets is less important on short range shooting of course. And I find very little difference when shooting a mix from 8.35 to 8.50grns.


  8. BB

    I guess if you add up all the variances in all the components in something as complicated as an air gun, that pretty much explains why one rifle will have a different feel than the same gun with the previous serial number.

    I hope you get to go home today, and am very happy to hear you are feeling so much better.


  9. My Daisy 822 broke this Winter, while they were working on it I made a terrible mistake, I googled air rifles. I have not been the same since. lol I now have a 1377 with a red dot. A GAMO big cat. And my favorite a Walther Force 1000. Man oh man, I love that gun. I thank y’all on this site for all the info. Some of the best info was BB talking about the need to use the correct pellet with each gun. It was a real bummer at first trying to sight ( scope actually) in the 2 springers. I would clean clean clean the bore, tighten the scope mounts, change mounts and scopes. Nothing seemed to work. But when I got a sample pack of pellets, it was like magic. One kind of pellet was all over the place, then w/o touching a thing, the next kind of pellet would be one big hole. At first I was kind mad, I have always been a shotgun hunter and if I missed I knew it was me. But with air rifles it keeps you thinking.

    Thanks for all who make this blog happen.

    Get well soon BB,

    Gene


    • Hi Gene !I am new in scoping so at first i was thinking that this can t be more different then mechanical sights-then comes sobernig IT IS NOTHING LIKE THAT today i was changing type of pellets so i had to -how you say.. well make adustaments on sight of the scope ps.- is Walther that hard to coke as i heard As everybody here know by now english is foregin language so if i wrote something wrong try to put in the context or ask πŸ™‚


      • The Walther is a lot harder to cock than the GAMO, but those are the only 2 springers i have ever touched, so not sure if the Walther is “real” hard or just “kind of hard” to cock. Don’t let that stop you from buying one though, it is a fine gun. My old eyes, at age 49, will not allow be to use the iron sights, either I can see the sights or the target, but not both, so I put scopes on all the rifles. Plus with the scope and the gun rested on a bench, I can almost rule out my errors and see how accurate the gun is. After finding the correct pellet, I found that the scope and mounts were not the problem. Now I see I have to find the correct pellets within the correct brand of pellet. More fun. lol


        • Gene,

          Even more maddening is that the pellet that shoots best in your Walther LGV may not be the most accurate pellet in someone else’s Walther LGV.

          Pyramyd Air has rec’d emails from customers asking us to list the one specific pellet that works best in each gun listed on our site. What they don’t understand is that we don’t shoot every gun, and we don’t have the manpower to test each gun with every pellet type in stock (and we already know that pellets vary enough in weight that such testing would be a fruitless exercise).

          I suspect that most airgunners believe that if a certain pellet shoots well in one model, it’ll shoot identically well in all other guns of the model.

          Edith


        • I dont think that here in Croatia we have that gun(i think don t take me for granted)and i think i too strong for what i do target plinking.When i was buing airgun after SLAVIA 631 (tuned πŸ™‚ )i was areally considered RWS 350 but it is too strong and full capacity of this gun would not be used it wuold be shame,so i bought RWS 34 i scoped it and good for me ….for now πŸ˜‰



  10. Wayne,

    I was hoping you’d chime in on the pellet weighing cause I know you’ve been doing alot of that. When you’re in competition do you allow any varience in the weight or do you shoot the exact same weight for the entire match? Fifty hours tuning the gun wow. Is that done for a specific pellet weight or is there an allowable range?

    Mr B.


    • Mr. B.

      I did my chairgun data on 8.5gr and I shoot that weight until they are all gone. That’s why I weigh out 3-5 tins at a time from the same lot… so I can get enough of one weight at a time. Then I adjust and use the 8.35. As I get low on the 8.5 I mix in the 8.45 and 8.55. But in a match, I really try to stick to just one that I’ve done my data on.

      Again, it really only shows up on the long shots…. but that can be where the match is won or lost.

      Wacky Wayne





      • That is an excellent point DB. You must weigh first, then oil. If you oil first, how are you going to weigh pellets with all those monkeys around? πŸ˜‰


    • Chuck,

      I weigh first and coconut oil after with Air Arms & JSB… but with crosman CPH, I wash them first in rubbing alcohol, dry, weigh and then coconut oil.

      The coconut oil is vaporized as the compressed air hits it, and I don’t think it matters if one pellets has more or less than another. The excess is blasted out the barrel in a mist. I’ve yet to hear any signs of detonation. I think it must have a very high “flash Point”

      Wacky Wayne


  11. BB,
    I meant to tell you I got a kick out of your article today. Fun read!! I had an instant urge to run out and buy some M&Ms to weigh. I was wondering if I weighed same size chili beans, would the lighter one, because maybe they have more air bubbles in them, require more Beano?
    -Chuck


  12. Fred

    Did you flash the Bat signal to summon me? I must have missed it! Just send the limo, I will be waiting outside.

    Pedals can be a real nightmare. As you well know, they are threaded such that the act of pedaling tightens them, the alternative would not be pretty. Unfortunately when you are really putting the torque to them, like when trying to keep up with a fair maiden in snugly-fitting bike shorts…. uh, what were we talking about?

    Ah yes, pedals. The best advice I can give is:

    1. Apply heavy grease to the threads of the pedals before installing them in the first place.

    2. When taking pedals off, WEAR GLOVES. Those chainrings are one hell of a knuckle-buster.

    3. As with all things, the right tool is essential. In this case it would be a pedal wrench. Park Tools makes an excellent one:

    http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/11941-325_PARPW8-2-Accessories-42-Tools/Park-PW-3-Pedal-Wrench.htm

    4. For a really tough job, you can leverage the pedal wrench against the crank arm with a large hose clamp tightened with a socket wrench, or a vice if you can squeeze one in there. You only have to move it a little bit, to be able to loosen it the conventional way from then on.

    5. As for putting me on retainer, you will get more for your money with derrick38, just make sure and pay him by the hour. Me, you would want to pay by the job.

    My best regards to the fine citizens of the Garden State.


    • SL,

      I hadn’t thought of a u-bolt type hose clamp for leverage – that’s a good idea – but after I pulled the pedal from the bottom bracket and put it in the vise, a 18″ pipe would work fine on the wrench. Unfortunately, by then the 15mm Craftsman was toast.

      I installed Crankbrothers’ Eggbeaters and put Permatex’s “neverseize” compound on them for this Sunday’s ride, the (drumroll please) Tour de Elizabeth – Edith are you reading this? I’ll take photos and post them on Picasa, assuming the ride comes off and I don’t get mugged – for your enjoyment, Edith. If I finish early enough, I’ll go to the shooting range with more sorted pellets and let you folks know how they work at 30 yards (hey, it’s the Union County Pistol Range – not the Cherry Ridge Rifle Range).

      Fred PRoNJ



        • HK, keep in mind I’m using mountain bike shoes and pedals on a road bike. I like being able to walk around and no adjustment for release is needed with the eggbeaters and best of all, they were on super crazy sale!

          Fred PRoNJ

          Huck the meat? I’m afraid to ask what you really wanted to say….



            • HK,thank you for the translation. It’s never to late for us old, gray haired guys to learn a new language and be able to communicate with the young’uns. Huck the meat, duuude!.

              Fred PRoNJ


      • Fred

        The eggbeaters are excellent pedals, I use Candy SLs on my dual suspension MTB which is an eggbeater with a small platform.

        I have used Shimano’s SPD, Time ATAC, Speedplays and at least one other system I can’t remember, but Crank Bros. pedals are the best.


  13. Hey what do you think about this when i was scoping my gun after scoping i have put some warm glue you know liquid plastic over scope tightening screws and no problem with untight screws


    • Croatia-Serbia

      I doubt the hot glue has the consistency to get in between the threads of the screws to do any good. Your scope screws may not have loosened, but it isn’t because of the hot glue unless we are talking of different things. Do they have thread-locker over there? It is like a weak super glue that is blue in color and will hold small screws very tightly, but will break loose if you have to make adjustments later on. Loc-Tite is one manufacturer of this fluid. Perhaps you can find someone on the internet to buy it from.


      • lead thank you for answer, we here have Pattex Hot STICKS 2 MINUTES TO TO FIX πŸ™‚ transparent ,we maybe misuderstood first i have tight the screws THEN i put litle bit of hot glue ON THE -YOU KNOW WHAT I DON T WHANT TO SAY SOMETHING WRONG (WORDS HAVE TWO MEANINGS) SCREW


  14. I’ll have to pass on this one too since I don’t have a scale. Given the general slipshod quality of most organizations as was demonstrated on my recent flight back from Kentucky, I guess I’m not surprised that there is some variation within tolerances for products. If it’s made by BAM, give up any hope of consistency.

    CowboyStar Dad, hang in there. You don’t want to dilute your great surprise.

    AlanL, I don’t believe the video had information about .177 or .22 for the RWS 350. At that distance, I would guess .22.

    Rimfire shooters, what’s the difference between pistol .22 LR and rifle .22 LR and is it significant?


    • Matt,
      The pistol rounds have faster burning powder to deal with the shorter barrel. Either will work in either type of gun depending on your expectations.

      If you are shooting targets formally, it does make a difference. Playing around, not so important. You might get lucky with the SS and find that normal rounds shoot well.


    • Matt61,

      I’m not so sure. Assumptions about this can be tricky. We need Herb.
      Here’s my mental meandering:
      .22 is a heavier pellet, = flatter trajectory = longer range.
      Then again, .177 is a smaller pellet, leaves the gun faster, offers less air resistance = longer range.

      So… we’re back to the discussion of a few days ago about true range of pellets!

      -AlanL


      • I think somebody said something about hitting a coffee can at 100 yards. If so, that is not only possible with .177, its easier than you might think. I used to have one set up about 80 yards from the fence and shoot it with my 36-2 (guessing 850fps with 8.3 gr) whenever I had a chance; got to point I could hit it 5 times in row easily (open sights, offhand), although I was constantly screwing up 10x:). I also set it up at 100 yards, and it was not that difficult; once you’ve got the range, the clink of the pellet hitting after a long pause is addictive. I think some of the pellets even dented/creased the can at 80 yards, not sure about 100. For this type of non-precision work, the Crosman Field Points are excellent, due to high BC: you can tell by the impact that they retain a lot more velocity than others. Superdomes are the worst non-wadcutters in my experience for long distances, as they lose velocity quickly.


        • BG

          5 times in a row? Offhand?! Open sights?!! 80 – 100 yards?!!!

          I couldn’t see a Boeing through a set of open sights at 100 yards, much less a coffee can.

          I don’t know weather to tell you that you make me sick, or that you are the man.

          You da man.


  15. Since joining this blog and since BB and Edith are from Texas, I have been more apt to notice articles about Texas. Today’s newspaper had an article in it that says,

    “You can find 32 of the world’s 42 bat species in Texas. Bracken Cave near San Antonio hosts the largest bat colony in the United States holding 40 million winged and squeaking residents. Meanwhile, Austin hosts the country’s largest colony of city-dwelling bats (the 1.5 million that live under the Congress Avenue Bridge).”

    I for one am not surprised that Congress is home to batty creatures. One should not pass under that bridge for any reason.

    -Chuck


    • Chuck, I don’t know if you caught my reply yesterday but the Savage BV .22 with the accutrigger is one of the two rifles I have decided upon. Please let me have your input after shooting your’s for awhile.

      Fred PRoNJ


  16. Some of us shotgun shell reloaders know you need to weigh your powder charge every time you get a new keg/bottle of powder for consistency. Maybe pellet makers have off days too?


  17. Fred,
    Sorry, I did catch your comment late last night and thought I’d wait until I got some results, but alas, today it is rainy/windy and my Savage is too purdy to go mucking with. I’ll let you know how I do, someday. Meanwhile, I’m just entertaining myself by trying to be funny on this blog. Oh, wait, I’ve got Baracudas to test. What am I doing sitting here.
    -Chuck


  18. Catching up on last night’s comments, there was one from tdung about accuracy or lack of with short barrels.

    I didn’t see it mentioned to him that the accuracy problem with short barrels is because of *sighting* down a short barrel as opposed to a long barrel. The longer the barrel the better it is for sighting in a target. Not sure if I’m saying that right. It’s been said before on this blog by people much better at explaining things than me.

    Also, I don’t want to leave people with the impression that the Bronco is some kind of stubby rifle. I measured my Bronco “barrel” and so’s not to get people misled about the Bronco’s length, mine measures a little over 16.5″ from the back of the “barrel”(where the pellet is loaded) to the tip of the (fake) compensator. I put barrel in quotes because apparently inside that external “barrel” somewhere is the real 9″ barrel.

    Apparently being only 9″ doesn’t affect accuracy too much, at least at 10m, because it can hold it’s own with my Talon SS and 953.

    -Chuck


  19. This one is for Lead- ON RWS 34 screws do get loose after few shoots, and it s 1 month passed and it s still hold after 1000 (or more)pellets now i ll told you if someting change but Lead you are a legend :)…


    • Croatia-Serbia

      I stand corrected! Maybe you guys have better hot glue than we have over here.

      I was satisfied to read that you found pellet that your Diana 34 likes. My Diana 52 also likes RWS ammo, the right pellet certainly makes all the difference.

      As pretty as it is, my TX200 was a huge disappointment until I found the right pellet.


  20. RE: Pellet variation

    If you have two pellets that weight the same, then actually you are not using a good enough balance. If you weighed the pellets with a microbalance (good to a microgram) then you’d have a very hard time to find two that weighed the same.

    The very best scientific measurements are good I think to about 10 significant figures. Lead is 207.2 g/mol. So Wayne’s 8.44 gain pellet has
    6.023*10^23 * 8.44/(15.4*207.2) = 1.59*10^21 atoms of lead.

    10 significant figures would still be +/- 10^11 atoms of lead.

    Herb


  21. How funny, I was reading an older post about the same thing yesterday! Heres a link:

    /blog/2006/10/why-do-pellet-weights-vary/

    Thought it was quite serendipitous to have a new blog about a great subject that confuses people. πŸ™‚


  22. Chuck, thanks for the info.

    Have you tried your Bronco’s accuracy at longer ranges? I know BB has done at 20/25 yards or something.

    Also it seems, each Bronco has different taste for pellets. BB’s review shows it likes CP 7.9 and H&N Baracuda 10.65 (easier with hold), yours likes RWS Hobby, Airgun Reporter’s and AirgunWeb’s reports show it likes H&N FT or something.

    So, does this mean each barrel (even on the same gun) have it’s own characteristic of pellets taste? Thanks.


    • tdung

      I had a Bronco, but gave it to my nephew. It’s favorite pellet was the Crosman Premier Light (7.9 grain.) I only shot mine at 10 yards, but it was deadly accurate. Tiny one hole groups if I really concentrated.

      Chuck is right. Pellet recommendations are a starting point. Todays blog discusses how the tiniest parts can have significant differences, two rifles that rolled off the assembly line at the same time may shoot differently.

      Frequent contributor Wacky Wayne shot his Broncos extensively at 25 yards if I remember correctly. He was very impressed with the accuracy, and ordered several Broncos. This is from a man that has shot airguns most of us have only dreamed about. That says alot about the quality of that rifle.

      PS I responded to your question from yesterday’s blog, but the TKO muzzlebreak was $44 shipped.


    • tdung,

      I haven’t had time to do alot of pellet testing with my Bronco yet but I can tell you that mine shoots H&N Barracuda Match very well. 25 yd, 5 shot groups of 3/4″ every time, 1/2″ groups and slightly better about 50% of the time. If I remember correctly, I think it did almost as well with JSB 8.4 gr. domes. BTW, my Bronco is scoped with a Leapers 3-9 x 32. Hope this was helpful.

      David H.


  23. tdung,
    Apparently not all rifles of the same brand/type like the same pellet. Some of that may be induced by the rifle some by the shooter. It’s a mystery we’ve all come to realize the more we shoot. The best anyone can do is say, try these and see if they work for you like they did for me. Chances are they’ll work for you, too.

    A pellet recommendation is only a starting point. Not only that, but everyone may be right and your rifle likes all of them. The pellet vendors must love this air gun quirk.

    -Chuck


    • tdung,

      If the Pyramyd Air noise scale had 10 levels instead of 5, there’d probably be a difference between the noise ratings of the Bronco and the Talon SS. The fewer the levels, the wider range each level covers.

      Also, where you shoot the guns makes a difference. If you shoot the Shinsung Dragon Slayer (.50 cal.) at the range and away from buildings, it doesn’t sound very loud. Shoot it on the back porch, which is enclosed on 3 sides by our house, and the report is really loud! When Tom shoots it in his office (which is right next to my office), he has to yell “fire in the hole” or I’ll fall off my chair because it’s extremely loud. Environment makes a huge difference!

      When people submit product reviews for CO2 guns and say that it’s much louder than what we have it rated, I wonder if they’re shooting it inside their house.

      Edith


    • Seriously! They must make tons of money from people buying a tin only to find out it shots for crap in their gun. Although if one is smart one will start with the known performers and go from there. But still an expensive venture, trying to figure out what pellets a new gun likes.


  24. tdung,
    I forgot to say, no, I have not shot the Bronco farther than 10m. Now that warmer weather is coming I may try longer distances. If I do I’ll report it on the most current day’s blog.

    -Chuck





    • twotalon,

      Yes, I still have some. I keep it inside a Ziplok bag that’s inside a container that’s inside another Ziplok bag. Then, I slip that whole thing inside a plastic shopping bag that’s tied off at the top. The entire package is kept at the bottom of the deep freeze in the garage. The catnip is so potent that even after I’ve vacuumed the carpet with my super-sucking Dyson, my little female cat, Dale, goes to that spot on the carpet and howls like she’s sitting on fence at midnight under a full moon. The sounds that come out of her belong in a horror movie. This behavior is non-stop for up to 5 weeks after the nip has been vacuumed up. I can’t open the freezer when the cats are wandering around the garage, as they might catch a whiff of that stuff!

      I would offer some to the people across the street who also have 3 cats, but I’m afraid they might not be able to keep the peace once their kitties are exposed to your white lightning nip!

      Edith


      • Edith…

        Besides a good meal after Tom gets home, give him some nip. If he starts howling and rolling around like he’s gone wacko then you know he is in pretty good shape.

        twotalon



    • You are talking about cats I hope?
      This is the good stuff…not the crap you get from the stores that is mostly weeds ,alfalfa, and who knows what.

      Dried at about 130 degrees in a dehydrator. Leaves and short stems only. All grass, dead leaves and weeds sorted out first. Graunched up in a food processor when the leaves get dry enough to get crunchy. Sifted through a collander to seperate the ground leaves from any remaining stems. Stored in ziplock freezer bags or sealed plastic kitchen containers. Then stored in a cool dark place.

      I gave a bag of it to one woman and she must have let it set out where her daughter’s boyfriend could see it. Anyway it dissapeared. He probably thought it was dope. He would have been disappointed if he had tried smoking it himself. If he sold it to his buddies he probably got his butt kicked. Would serve him right.

      If you really want some, email me your address at pointblue@bright.net.

      By the way, cats have different reactions to it. Some go nuts, a few don’t care. Some like it better fresh and some like it better dried. Kittens often don’t notice it until about 6 months of age.

      twotalon


      • You need to be careful with it. It is a drug to cats, making them higher than a kite. We have 11 cats right now, adopting 3 more in two weeks because their unwanted. We only put catnip out on their scratching pads once a month. At first they do act a little insane but we watch them so they don’t fight. After the initially strong scent wears off they go back to just enjoying their same scratching pads. I guess all I’m trying to say is PLEASE BE CAREFUL. We love all our cats and dogs too!

        rikib


        • Try getting a couple bags of the nip filled mousy things you can find at Wallyworld at times. The nip in them is not worth crap, but every so often you put them in a bag of nip and jumble them around some. Let them soak in the scent overnight before you toss them on the floor.

          twotalon


          • I do not bother with little mouse toys, my cats only play with them occasionally then my dogs chew them up (waste of money). I rub catnip into the scratching boards about once a month, I’ll also put a little in a large paper bag because they love paper bags anyway. All I’m asking is that people take caution (care) with this. Go to Cat World’s website, catnip is related to marijuana plant (causes a high) and can effect some cats like LSD. I am starting to grow my own so that I know there are no other chemicals in it. I love all my pets as I know you do yours. πŸ™‚

            rikib


            • My cats …4 of them like it but do not go nuts on it. My wife has a lot more cats, and the effects vary from ignoring it to getting very rowdy and possesive of the nip. After a while they walk away and ignore it as if it were not there.
              Seems to be a temporary thing even with an unlimited supply. Seems to lose it’s appeal for a while.

              My black cat “OZZY” just likes to stick his head in the nip jar and eat some. Then he just walks away.
              Ozzy and drugs. Something about that rings a bell.

              twotalon


              • Cat World does say though that cats will stop when they have had enough unlike humans. Please don’t misunderstand me in anyway I am only trying to offer info as a fellow pet lover. As mentioned earlier or on another post we have 3 more unwanted kittens coming in about 2 weeks and a puppy in a couple days. I must really thank you for your love of cats, everyone hears about dogs but rarely cats so thank you for loving them.

                rikib


                • Love cats. Don’t care for dogs. Cats can be a real pain sometimes but I relate better to their personalities.
                  With dogs, you are the master. They will fall all over themselves to please you.
                  Not so with cats. They have their own ideas.

                  twotalon


                  • I’m more into cats as well, but my wife and I take in both dogs and cats that are not wanted. 11 cats soon to be 14, 4 dogs soon to be 5. We’ve been blessed with a large home and yard so we take in as many as we can. Only downpart is we can never take a vacation now, but at least they all have a nice home. The home grown catnip is a good idea we had not really thought of it. I don’t know why because we cook and prepare most food for our pets ourselves. It may cost a little more but the vet has always given them all a good bill of health. Thanks again for loving your cats.

                    rikib


  25. β€œYes, I still have some. I keep it inside a Ziplok bag that’s inside a container that’s inside another Ziplok bag. Then, I slip that whole thing inside a plastic shopping bag that’s tied off at the top. The entire package is kept at the bottom of the deep freeze in the garage.”

    Came in on the tail end of this one, but I thought it was 1976 again for a moment. Sounded like a guy a new that had been in Viet Nam.

    Imagine those folks that were surprised that a pellet would vary in weight. Now think about them building a new home. Welcome to my word. I have had complaints the 2 x 4 for framing have β€œspots” in them. Bad trees


    • Someone told me once that I must have not been very good at fixing airplanes if I had to fix them more than once. If they only knew what was in a combat aircraft.

      If you tied down something as simple as a TV set in one of those and took it for a ride for a few hours it would be nothing but pieces .

      twotalon


    • Volvo,

      Umm…I never thought of it that way. After re-reading my comment, I guess it sounds drug-like. I really am talking about catnip. I’ve never had a cat that could ignore the good-quality catnip. But twotalon’s stuff is super powerful, very aromatic, long-lasting and makes my cats slide around the carpet on their backs (propelled by their rear paws shoving them around the room). If they didn’t have fur, they’d have rug burns.

      Roy, my big kitty, will eventually collapse from exhaustion from the catnip high.

      Dale just keeps going and going, like the Energizer bunny.

      Punky ends up running around the room (after he’s done sliding on the carpet) and swats the other cats. He’s not normally like that, but I liken him to the quiet, shy guy at party who has too much to drink and puts a lampshade on his head and starts dancing on the tables πŸ™‚ Cats…I love ’em!

      I can only imagine what a house builder goes through. However, some of them deserve what they get (As you reap, so shall you sow). When they built our current house, I raked them over the coals because they said they would fix certain things on our walk-thru…but not til after we closed. Knowing that they just wanted me to sign the papers, I told them I wasn’t going to close on anything until the house was completed EXACTLY as we wanted. Our closing was delayed by enough that it took us into the next month, which really freaked them out. It’s not my fault they installed the vanity in the guest bathroom with the wrong orientation. If you want my $, it’s my way or the highway πŸ™‚

      Edith




          • Edith,
            ‘Twas a very bad joke. The winky didn’t work. I just picture your house as a highly fortified, heavily armed fortress, fiercely guarded by an army of catnipped cats behind the crocodile infested moat– unassailable by even the most determined Wacky Wayne USFT-hunting armadas! Guests? Hotel California…. πŸ˜€
            -AlanL


            • AlanL,

              Ah! Then I guess the appropriate answer is: Yes, of course we have guests. How else do you think we get fresh meat for the cats? πŸ™‚

              Actually, people like to visit us. We have lots of neat guns and other toys!

              Edith


            • Your depiction of the cat reminds me of “Pet Cemetery”. Although I did have a cat that looked just like that, called “Misty Blue”, unfortunately she has past. Okay, lost my train of thought. Listening to Alice Cooper, Welcome To My Nightmare. Have to get back later. Showing my age.

              rikib


              • You’re talking about “Church”. We had a neighborhood tom cat like that. Looked the same and was mean as a bag of snakes that the crocodile hunter had messed with.

                Try In-a-godda-da-vida. Lasts a long time.
                Where did I put that CD?? Need it NOW.

                twotalon


                • Mine was a sweet baby though, although she was a rescue like all our pets supposedly she was a Russian Blue I don’t know but she was my baby girl. You got me thinking about that song now I’ll have to look it up. I know I probably have it somewhere but internet maybe faster, isn’t The Doors is it?

                  rikib


                  • Iron Butterfly. They did two albums as far as I know. “Heavy” and “IN-A-GODDA-DA-VIDA”. One whole side of the record was in-a-godda-da-vida.
                    I know you must have heard part of it at least from some of the movies.
                    There was a chopped version that they played on radio stations to cut it down…all of the long solos were cut.

                    Going back to my place now. Must find CD. Both old records have been beat to crap, as was the first doors album. Have two of them too.
                    I remember when I was in college there was talk of a Doors concert in Columbus, but the mayor said no. Morrison had a bad habit of stripping naked on stage and wacking something.
                    Ruined my day.

                    twotalon


                    • TwoTalon,
                      Good song(?). Bart on the Simpsons replaced his church organist’s sheet music with that song — one of the funniest things they ever did.


                    • twotalon,

                      I once went to a Credence Clearwater Revival concert in Orlando. Everyone sat on the grass. I got over 300 mosquito bites on my legs. I was sick for weeks from the mosquito “venom” (or whatever you call it). That cured me of ever wanting to go to another rock concert πŸ™‚

                      Edith


                    • I replaced most of my Doors albums at Amazon. I just checked there they mention several Iron Butterfly albums most of which were unsuccessful but it says they are trying to tour again?

                      rikib


                    • If Iron Butterfly is going to tour again, maybe I can still hope for a Wishbone Ash comeback.


                • Damn, first thought was right but didn’t go with it “Iron Butterfly”. Now I really have to dig through some boxes, I actually still have vinyl recordings from before I went in the navy that my parents did not get rid of.

                  rikib


      • When I feel up to it and have enough later season nip I will make some more, but the later season stuff gets a less pleasing kind of strong rank smell than the early season stuff. The hot dry weather in the summer changes the smell to something almost nasty, rather than the minty smell of the earlier spring stuff grown in cooler temps and with a lot of moisture.

        It must be something that people can’t smell that turns them on, because they usually don’t care too much what season it is harvested in. I would rather smell the early stuff fresh and green….almost like spearmint.

        One woman I know makes tea with it . Se says it’s soothing to the stomach.

        twotalon


  26. Edith,
    Drugs? I was talking about Hu tieu kho, a braised rice noodle dish he brought back. I recall having a bowl of it on a cold winters evening waiting for Uncle Sid. He never did show, but we did get a little snow as I recall.

    AlanL,
    Received your e-mail, sorry I threw you off with my true identity. I correspond with most of the regulars and forgot you were a little newer, as you have assimilated so quickly.


  27. Do prices on PA change much, that is, go up? I love the H&N Field Target Trophy. It happens to come 500 to a tin in .22 cal, and for only forty cents more than the .177 cal FTT. I usually find .22 cal to be up to double .177’s price for the same thing (extra lead and all, yeah… yeah…). I understand a price increase or lowering tin amounts. So I was surprised to find this “deal” on amazing, sorted, H&N pellets. I want to stock pile them in fears that PA will notice that they show a list of $22 for the .22 cal FTT, and sell if for $12 effectively. And they show a list of $15 for the .177 FTT and sell it for $11.59. So I see that as a clear bargain for the .22 cal ammunition where normally it isn’t the case. I also find this ammunition to be very accurate. Similar to JSB Exact jumbo .22 cal. I actually like the harder lead that H&N uses as it keeps the pellets from deforming.

    Question, who would buy the H&N Field Target over the Field Target Trophy? The FT has crap aerodynamics and is only $1 cheaper per tin.

    -Ryan


    • Ryan,

      Like most businesses, prices change when the manufacturers or distributors change their prices or when shipping to Pyramyd Air changes. Pyramyd Air adjusts its prices up or down when their costs go up or down.

      Edith


    • Ryan,

      Question, who would buy the H&N Field Target over the Field Target Trophy? The FT has crap aerodynamics and is only $1 cheaper per tin.

      Maybe somebody wanting to punch cleaner holes at longer distances (than 10m), but needing something with a better BC than wadcutters? I don’t know… never shot them.

      – Orin


  28. BG_Farmer,
    Thread did not seem to go any further. Wishbone Ash comeback would be great! As far as Iron Butterfly this is what I got off from Amazon “…Much of their later output was marred by continual break-ups, reformations and line-up changes but the latest incarnation of the band is touring and is reported to be working on a new album.” All I put here is what’s freely available, don’t want to step on any toes.

    rikib


    • Rikib,
      Yeah, they weren’t long-lived originally, I don’t think, why can’t rockstars figure out how good they have it:)! I wore out some Wishbone Ash 8 tracks in high school.


      • Yeah, 8 tracks the good ole days, lol. I remember pulling the tape out off the machine and rewinding it every few times you played it. Then cassettes lasted a little longer. CD’s are great for me, but with all this mp3 stuff and all loading 1,000’s of songs on something the size of a dime. I WANT MY VINYL ALBUM! Just an old fart I guess.

        rikib


  29. Edith, you seem to have a good working knowledge of PA’s business. Do you happen to know why Beeman Kodiak Double Gold .22 cal is $17.99, where the Beeman MSRP is $15.95? I have seen the same thing being sold for as little as $12.45. I am quite curious why that is so expensive. I am also wondering why H&N hasn’t made it available under their label, as they manufacture Beeman pellets. Curiouser and curiouser.

    -Ryan


    • Ryan,

      I have no idea why these things are the way they are. Things happen, deals are struck and the result is what you see. I really don’t know much about the inner dealings of Beeman and H&N.

      Edith


  30. I shot the H&N Baracuda 10.65gr today (actually ~10.1gr in my tin).

    My set up was the same as in my earlier report with the Crosman Premier 10.5 and the Beeman Kodiacs Extra Heavy. Here are the results for the Baracuda:

    10.0gr – 1 eight ring, 9 nine rings, 0 ten rings
    10.1gr – 4 eight rings, 6 nine rings, and 0 ten rings
    10.2gr – 3 eight rings, 7 nine rings, and 0 ten ring

    Total score 262 (Not as good as the other two tests)

    The 10.0gr seem to be the best weight for this brand in my rifle. These also seemed to fit looser in the barrel than the other two weights. Rather, most did but some didn’t. It could be the tighter ones actually weighed closer to 10.1, like 10.0999, but the scale only displays to the tenths so 10.0999 would display 10.0.

    To compare all three tests would look like the following:

    Total 8 rings scored: CP = 10, Kodiac = 5, Baracuda = 8,

    Total 9 rings scored: CP = 20, Kodiac = 20, Baracuda = 22,

    Total 10 rings scored:CP = 0, Kodiac = 5, Baracuda = 0

    It looks like, if the above results are repeatable, I should shoot eMatches with the Kodiacs. The CP and the Baracuda are nearly identical.

    If I took the most accurate weights from each brand it would look like this:

    Total 8 rings scored: CP 10.5gr = 1, Kodiac 10.2gr = 0, Baracuda 10.0gr = 1,

    Total 9 rings scored: CP 10.5gr = 11, Kodiac 10.2gr = 7, Baracuda 10.0gr = 9,

    Total 10 rings scored:CP 10.5gr = 0, Kodiac 10.2gr = 4, Baracuda 10.0gr = 0

    I apologize if the way I am displaying these comparisons are more confusing than helpful. I haven’t figured out how to make a good formatted table display in WordPress.

    -Chuck



    • Wow – thanks for summing that all up, Chuck. This will be great reference material for you to look back at once you’ve forgotten why you’re buying Kodiaks instead of CP’s.

      Now, you definitely have to try JSB and Air Arms. πŸ™‚

      – Orin


      • Orin,
        To make sure we’re on the same page, I’m shooting .177. Which JSB’s and AA’s do you want me to try? I’m game. I don’t have any AA’s. I do have JSB Exact 8.4gr.
        -Chuck



  31. On the scale….off the scale….on the scale….off the scale….my weight keeps changing too…I guess I got to quit eating so much..he he he

    I have some vinyl left….somewhere..but lost some of the good ones over the years.

    In The Garden of Eden – my favorite IB song….

    going in the other direction….

    How about Milo Open the Door by The Who?

    BTW…I really know a guy who got his butt kicked for selling a bag of oregano.


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