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Ammo β€Ί Pellet variation: What do you do?

Pellet variation: What do you do?

by B.B. Pelletier

Update on Tom/B.B.: Tom is doing well. He keeps telling me he feels fantastic. His voice is getting stronger and stronger, as demonstrated by the 8-10 times a day he calls me with things he wants me to do, dictating new scripts for the Airgun Academy videos, blogs, blog answers, his Shotgun News column, etc. It’s obvious that he’s suffering from airgun withdrawal and needs to immerse himself in things.

Announcement: Just a reminder that Pyramyd AIR is having an airgun garage sale on June 5. They’ve extended the hours, so now it’s being held from 10 am to 3 pm. They keeping adding more stuff to the sale pile, so they wanted to give everyone more time to look around.

Pyramyd AIR is raffling off this Benjamin Trail NP XL in .22 caliber. Tickets are available at the 3rd Annual Garage Sale.

Speaking of the garage sale, don’t forget that Pyramyd AIR is raffling off a gun that Crosman is donating, a Benjamin Trail NP XL rifle in .22 caliber. Raffle tickets are $1 each or 6 for $5, with proceeds going to Warrensville Heights Economic Development.

Now, on to today’s blog.

In the past few days, we’ve done some interesting experiments with pellet weight variation, and some eyes have been opened for sure. You’re now discovering what I knew when I competed in field target in the 1990s. Pellet weights vary and there’s nothing you can do about it.

For general use, it doesn’t really matter. If you’re shooting at pop cans or even bottle caps, a variation of five-tenths of a grain won’t matter that much. But, if you’re trying to shoot competitively, like field target at different ranges, then pellet variation is your enemy.

Before every match, I used to weight-sort my pellets. I shot a Daystate Harrier, and I shot it with Crosman 10.5-grain Premiers and later with Beeman Kodiaks, which weighed 10.65 grains. But, when I would weight-sort the pellets out of the box or tin, I would get many piles of pellets that weighed a tenth of a grain different. The Premiers, for example, most commonly weighed 10.4 grains. I might get as many as 40% of a box of Premiers at that weight. So, that becomes the group of pellets I would compete with. Those would be transferred into a tin, where they were oiled before loading into the gun.

When I competed, the Kodiaks also varied in weight, though not as much as the Premiers. The largest number of pellets at any one weight usually was 10.6 grains. I found that by sorting pellets by weight, my groups shrank significantly, and I could count on 2 or 3 extra points every match. That’s what matters, and that’s why we sort our pellets by weight.

If we hadn’t done the experiments, many of you would have never believed that pellets vary as widely as they do. Some of you are still discovering that even premium pellets can vary by a huge margin. Also, we note that over time, manufacturers’ tolerances tend to change and the average pellet weight may not agree with what’s on the tin. So, the prudent competitor trusts no one and verifies the pellet weight himself.

Manufacturing: How accurate?
During the M1 Carbine production program, one firm was heat-treating receivers on the basis of their color outside the furnace. It seemed as though the production personnel were able to very closely estimate the temperature of the metal based on the color. To speed things up, the plant dropped their thermocouple measuring test and allowed their employees to estimate receiver temperature by color. When the government finally caught the problem, they discovered that people guessing the temperature were actually off by 75 degrees. A tolerance variation that was enough to reject tens of thousands of receivers. So, don’t think that manufacturing is ever that precise. The tests we’ve done have demonstrated that it’s not.

Zero defects
Years ago, there were programs called “zero defects.” That means something does not depart from the specifications in any way. No manufacturing process can guarantee zero defects. It’s simply impossible. The only way you can have a true zero defects program is to inspect 100% of the products and sort for acceptance on that basis. When you weigh pellets, that’s what you’re doing.

10-meter shooting
Don’t worry about weighing pellets if you’re a 10-meter shooter. The distance is always the same, plus it’s so close to the muzzle that weight variation has little or no influence on accuracy.

To weigh or not to weigh
If you’re shooting just for fun, forget sorting pellets by weight. It isn’t necessary. But when you want the absolute most accuracy you can get from a particular gun and pellet and when the range stretches out past 25-30 yards, then definitely sort your pellets by weight.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airgunsβ„’ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

199 thoughts on “Pellet variation: What do you do?”

    • BB and Edith:
      These doctors are now taking the mickey.
      Let the poor fella out.Free the BB 1 πŸ™‚

      ‘Have a good day’ I will AFTER I get back from my mother in laws πŸ™‚

  1. Rocket Jane – Still lurking?

    I was wondering if you could change the BC of the pellet to give you more reach. Harry discussed predator pellets with hole drilled through them.

    What if you did that with a more cylindrical pellet and got hole larger relative to pellet diameter. Essentially shooting a spinning tube. Put a plastic plug in back of pellet that would blow out or make a sabot.


    • Herb,
      I’m intrigued by this. A solid bullet without the waist for less drag and greater range… would it make sense to make it out of aluminum or some other metal lighter than lead to bring the mass back down to something that can be shot fast enough to fly far yet still deliver reasonable energy on target?

    • Herb,

      I can’t remember if it was you or Jane that suggested I e-mail Josef Schulz about tube pellets when we were discussing it last time, but I thought you might like to see what was said. My e-mail to him was as follows:


      There has been some recent discussion on the Yellow Forum and Pyramyd AIR Blog about tube-shaped pellets. I was curious as to whether you had given any thought to the possibility of designing and manufacturing such pellets. The reason I wanted to e-mail you, specifically, is because I think your 0.177 Exact Diabolo Heavy (10.2 grain) pellet shape would make an excellent platform to start from. Of course you would need some sort of sabot or insert, but the high ballistic coefficient and large diameter waist seem like they would already be two steps in the right direction. Please let me know your thoughts.



      The response was as follows:

      Hello Orin,

      Thanks for an interesting idea. I will try to look for this discussion on the Yellow Forum… To tell the truth we haven’t thought of production of such a pellets yet but it might be interested in the future.

      Actually we focus on another projects at the moment but we will reconsider your idea when the outstanding projects are finished.

      Best regards,

      Pavel Kolebac
      JSB Match Diabolo a.s.

      – Orin

      • Orin,

        Thanks for sharing the e-mail. It does seem an interesting notion. The tricky part is to balance the size of the hole and its characteristics. Big enough hole to be useful, but airflow through the pellet has to help stabilize it. So a just a straight hole through a cylinder isn’t likely to work.


      • Orin

        Pavel didn’t mention how he is going to pay you your residuals!

        Just think, in the future we might overhear, “To heck with those exacts, I wanna try some JSB orins.” That would be pretty cool.

  2. Herb,
    I think I understand the design of this pellet and increased reach attainable. I have a tried old brain that hasn’t been used much in along time, but other than increased reach what would be the purpose? It seems that you would have to give up structural integrity making any impact force non-existent.


    • rikib

      Jane was shooting pests at a distance and wanted more “reach.” As I remember she was essentially wondering about shooting supersonic bullets not pellets from an airgun. She wanted to get rid of the diabolo waist to reduce the drag.

      Instead of going supersonic I wondered if you could improve the BC. It would seem that air flowing through the pellet would keep the pellet on trajectory. Increasing the air pressure behind the pellet should improve the BC too.

      Instead of just a hole some nozzle type design would seem to be better at both of the above points.

      I’d expect the pellet to roll into a doughnut as Harry showed. So I don’t think that “structural integrity” would be a problem. You’d seem to get a nice hollow point round that would expand in the pest.


      • Perhaps overstated the “reach” part. Jane had some real cannons. The pellet of course travels in an arc. the problem is that when shooting pests that don’t line up at 50 yards and wait their turn to get shot. The first pops up at 60 yards, then the next at 35. A flatter trajectory makes it easier to cope with the distance variations.

  3. Well sun is allways faster here so good morning πŸ™‚ I was yust wondering about eastern gray sqirrel -it is not native in America,not native in Britain-Europe think we find our self allien life form πŸ™‚ I am kidding it is native in Canada i ve done some reading,since i am aquarist too i know what invasive species can do for example apple snail in America,Asian carp(or here TOSTOLOBIK),plant liminophilla sasiflora in Florida and reacent news about snakehead fish in UK,in this part of europe we have one(at least) invasive specie Carassus Gibelio or BABUΕ KA,that fish allmost destroyed since 1978 carp population with their breeding habits.95 percent are famales-they dont need males becouse they can use EVERY CYPRINID SPECIES for spawning it is proces called gynogenesis.Newborn fish will be pure blooded mother no mather who the father was

  4. I dream of airgunning and when I wake up I pull out my favorite tin of ammo and take a big whiff; I love the smell of H&N in the morning. I like to watch Star Trek and I have my pellets there with me. I sometimes will open the tin, just to look at them and marvel at their uniformity. I also weigh them and put them in piles to be shot in groups. I like to use tins with screw tops from lesser brands that I don’t really shoot for anything but to break in a gun. I do like the tins for storing pellets securely. I wish pellets weren’t made of lead though. It tastes bad.

    • Ryan:
      Get yourself a tin of .22 H&N coppa points.
      Pour some into the palm of your hand and gently roll them babies around.
      Stress relief in a tin. πŸ™‚

      • Oh yeah. I have some beautiful Kodiak double gold. I really like them. I want some Field Target Special Double Gold, but they are expensive. It sucks, atm only the Beeman branded H&N copper pellets are available in .22 cal. I can’t get the Baracuda power or Field Target Trophy Power in .22 cal. So until I get my target rifle in .177, I don’t have a use for such beautiful pellets. I do get a nice fuzzy feeling though just looking at the Kodiak Double Gold’s. πŸ™‚

  5. B.B.

    I’m glad you’re getting better and better.


    Thank you for all that you have done for us and B.B.

    Some days ago we discussed the longest possible distance a pellet can fly and the way to measure it.
    Well, I didn’t measure, however recently I’ve been experimenting with some long-range airgunning. I use a fire-break in a local forest – a very, very nice place almost a 1000 meters long, in case you have enough mosquito repellent πŸ™‚
    Trees give excelent protection from the wind and good shadow even in the hottest of days.
    I was shooting from prone, using my trusted mod-CFX with weighted JSB Heavies 4.52. I didn’t actually weigh them, I just sorted pellets to be of the same weight, using simple scales. Vm is 240-242 m/s (very consistent thanks to gas spring), outside temperature 22 degs centigrade, humid air, normal air pressure.
    Actual distance was about 100 or 102 meters, with rifle zeroed @ 50, targets were a wine-bottle sized pieces of coloured glass πŸ™‚
    Well, I reckoned up in my head elevation and – surprise! – hit the bottle with the first shot. Pellet traveled there for, I guess, half a second! And it did have enough power to break it! (So I guess that’s the point to ponder over a little about safety – a pellet in 100 meters really has some power).
    I missed next shot, but third and fourth were OK, 2 less targets. Next time I’ll try to estimate grouping (I hope the earth will dry enough after 3 days of short but heavy rains).

    So, I guess I can make two statements:
    1) Long-range airgunning is possible
    2) Safety is always a must – 100 meters seem to appear an impossible, thus safe distance for an airgun, but it’s NOT


  6. Was on a mission last summer to improve my long range shooting with pcp airguns. My farthest target is 107 yards. Determining best pellet then weighing then lubing. Weighing pellets shrunk groups significantly. The other variable is wind and I’ve yet to be able to shoot well in the gusting wind at my place in the mountains. Waiting between gusts certainly helps. I’m going to follow Harry’s (Yraah’s) example and put several wind indicators downrange to help improve my groups/learn how to dope the wind.

    Sure would like to hear some input from others about their insight regarding aiming techniques for shooting airguns in the wind.


    • Kevin,

      “time and love”…

      Time to practice, practice, practice, and love of practice, practice, practice.

      “Be one with the wind grasshopper”

      ..watch the grass movements.. wind flags help in the learning process, but one has to learn the natural wind flags like leaves and grass, so transfer the wind flag info to the grass and make mental notes.

      and know that it’s just as tough for everyone, so just laugh at the fruitlessness of even trying, and the luck when you actually guess right!

      lastly, go to the next shoot at LDs place in Temecula, CA. … there you get real practice in the wind:-) and watch all the best shooters guessing wrong too.

      Wacky Wayne,
      Ashland Air Rifle Range

    • Kevin,
      I’m assuming you’re talking long-range groups, not coffee cans, so I’ll have to be like Moses, and point you where I cannot go:).

      The most important thing Wayne said (although they are all good), is watch the grass (and/or flags). Also, with wind and rifles, the deflection is not always obvious, i.e., even a direct, simple crosswind (which never happens:)) can move the bullet up or down as well as to the side. .22LR is pretty bad at 100 yards, but the effects on pellets is huge.

      This is one chart I found showing what I’m talking about — very handy.
      If you are like me, you reproduce this chart several times in a session, until getting the hang of what the wind is doing versus where you’re hitting:). When I go to the range, there is always at least a brisk breeze. I’m not good enough to compensate for variations immediately, so I use a technique similar to what Edith described: i.e. wait for same conditions; you will note that there is a rhythm of sorts to wind over a relatively long period.

  7. Croatia-Serbia

    On the subject of invasive species, here in the south of the US and my state of Georgia in particular, there is an invasive weed called Kudzu. It will completely cover telephone poles, barns, unused cars and huge stands of trees. It will starve the trees of light and kill them. Kudzu was introduced from Japan. The “American Cockroach” is not native to America. It originated from Africa and made it to the new world by stowing away on European ships. The Asian carp is decimating our Great Lakes and the Mississippi river. I read that the American bullfrog was imported to many locales around the world to farm for the legs. They have destroyed native amphibious species in many places.

    As far as squirrels go…When I was about 7 or 8 years old, three baby squirrels fell from a nest high up in a tree in our front yard. We looked after the stunned orphans for a few weeks. They would run around your torso like it was a tree trunk. Then they would burrow in a pocket, or some other comfy place, like the armpit. While they were initially quite tame, they eventually grew out of their domesticity and became wild, so we let them go.

    Despite our 2 vicious feline hunters, my backyard is flooded with the little buggers. They like to sit up in the treetops and bark very loudly to convey their aggravation. (I don’t know what a squirrel has to be aggravated about) They sound like little dogs! They also make a high pitched scream that they use to call to other squirrels. Admittedly they are cute, but hugely destructive. In addition to the entire eastern half of the US, Eastern Greys also have started to permeate the western coastal States and southern Canada and have been introduced to Britain, Ireland, Italy and Africa. The article I read stated that they are slowly spreading across Europe displacing the native red squirrels. Maybe you and DaveUK will have your chance at one before long!

    • Slinging Lead:
      I talk the talk but squirrels are soooo cute.
      I need to toughen up and remind myself they are nothing but rats with a more fluffy tail and big eyes and cheeky grins……Aahh forget it. πŸ™‚

          • Croatia-Serbia:
            Rovinj is a beautiful place,also you can visit Venice for a day trip by ferry from that area.
            Now I live in a rural place I see less squirrels and foxes than I did in London.
            Plenty of rats up here though.
            I currently have a smart one that visits my garden.
            I got a shot in recently but because my sights shoot a little high I forgot to compensate and he got a haircut instead of a head shot πŸ™
            It is a long summer ahead and time is on my side though. πŸ™‚

    • SL,
      The Asian carp are infecting the Illinois river systems but I don’t think, as yet, that they have made it into the Great Lakes, or at least not Lake Michigan. There is that fear that someday they will and there is controversy as to how to prevent it. One group want’s to completely close any rivers flowing into the lakes. Currently, I believe there are electric barricades in place but no one really knows how effective they will end being. These carp are very active in the Illinois River that flows through my city. We have bow fishing tournaments for them. I have sat in the Steak & Shake along the river and watched them jump six feet into the air when a boat passes by. Some boaters have been nailed by them.

  8. Can we make a deal i ll take asian carp(we have them too yust not many as i seen you guys have they are jumping in yours boats come on man i am jeleous…)and you take BABUΕ KA it is cute little fish half a kilo -3 kg world record and our rivers are floaded with them.Bullfrog is an example for human stupidity i saw them on tv they are destroing Australia,for coackroaches i know.But i must admit i would not like to have termite here i cant imagine how it is to live in house wille something is eating your foundations

  9. What did you do to make squirrels angry? πŸ˜‰ -i know that when they become old they tend to be aggressive and you tend to shoot on them so they pretends that they are dogs perhaps…

  10. All this talk about pellet variation has me intrigued. I am new to field target competitions (only in one under my belt so far), but I can see that sorting pellets would be a must if I want to maximize my score.

    I was shooting my HW50S from a bench (well, semi-shaky patio table, really) the other day to test different pellet brands. At 30 yards, I was getting 1/2″ groups from JSB Exacts and AA Diabolo Fields and 3/8″ groups from H+N Field Target Trophies and Crosman Premier Lights, *except* for a flyer here and there (especially from the CPL’s and the H+N’s). I chalked it up to to the knucklehead operating the trigger. While I’m sure the operator is still an issue, I now feel I should to re-do my testing after sorting the pellets for weight.

    To do that, I need a scale. I have my eye on this model:
    Anyone have any experience with that brand (American Weigh Scales)? I am hoping a $30 scale, supposedly accurate to 0.1 grain, will be accurate enough for this purpose.

    (BTW, I realize that stronger and more accurate rifle that the HW50S will likely increase my scores more than pellet sorting will. That’s a decision for a later day.)


    • Jim G,
      Sorry, I don’t have any experience with those scale folks, but after trying a few different scales, I ended up with this one. I like it.
      I was using a bullet scale that read to 0.1 grain but I didn’t find that resolution adequate for the job. This one reads to .02 grain, and works better for me.
      Here’s a few things I found that helped when sorting, and it definitely made a difference.
      1) Put a nickel or quarter on your scale to get it into its working range, press tare, and then work from there. Weighing a pellet on an empty scale can give flaky results.
      2) Weigh all of your pellets at one sitting if you can.
      3) Put a sheet of paper next to your scale and draw a large grid on it to place the pellets into. After you weigh a few pellets you’ll figure out how to label each square.
      4) If your scale has a resolution of .02 grains, you’ll be surprised how many piles you end up with. Use the biggest piles when you are shooting for accuracy, and group the little piles as appropriate, or put them back in the box.
      5) If you re-weigh your pellets at the same sitting, don’t be surprised to see the pellets shift from one pile to an adjacent pile. That’s just the accuracy vs resolution of the scale. Its normal, so don’t drive yourself crazy reweighing and re-grouping.
      6) If you re-weigh at different sitting with an inexpensive .02grain scale, don’t be surprised to see the pellets shift two piles away, but as a group. You’d need to spend a lot more money on a scale for that not to happen.
      7) The goal is to group similar weight pellets together. The actual weight of the pellet is secondary.

      Just my POV from the obsessive/compulsive side of the sport. LOL

  11. Always good to hear BBb is on the mend. Edith, I will guess you’ll miss the interaction here unless you continue to handle some replies.

    Zero defect programs still flourish in building. But then so does eyeballing, the worst are the Amish framing crews.

    Any idea what that is a picture of at the top of the page? Also, termites are not so bad, as the eradication is big business. The company Terminix was founded on having a sales person squirt colored water on the home foundation immediately and then having the real treatment applied later. God Bless Capitalism.

  12. Matt61,
    From your post concerning ammo for the Single Six, keep in mind it is not a target gun. Expect just average accuracy in .22 LR which is still good. For target work, I liked my heavy barreled Browning Buck Mark.

    The ability to handle both .22 LR and .22 magnums comes with the downside that the bore is oversized for the .22 LR’s. I have had good luck accuracy wise at longer ranges with 40 grain magnum loads, LR’s are cheap so you can try a bunch to see what it likes best.

    I would not concern yourself over the pistol or rifle designation, just stick with what shoots best.

  13. That’s great news that weight sorting is not relevant to the shooting that I do!

    Volvo, I’ve heard many good reports on the accuracy of the Single Six. On the other hand, there was B.B.’s distressing comment that guns that work with both .22LR and .22 magnum do neither well, and your observation about bore size makes sense. Anyway, I expect that I will do better than with my .45ACP. Besides, much of the appeal is in the Clint Eastwood aspect of the gun.

    AlanL, my sense is that .1777 is flatter-shooting because of its smaller size but .22 is less sensitive to wind because of greater mass. My guess that the round was .22 is just part of the wisdom that .22 is better for long-range, but I don’t know for sure. BG_Farmer, 80-100 yards offhand is pretty intense. Remind me not to challenge you at that distance. But I’ve renewed my enthusiasm for shooting long distance with my B30.

    Regarding long-distance, I think it’s pretty well established that some people can be accurate with airguns at 100 yards. But the jury is still out on the YouTube video circulated some time ago showing a guy hitting bottles at 200 yards with an Air Arms S410. B.B.’s vote is that it looked possible, but I don’t know. This is from another planet compared with any other airgunning that I’ve hard of.

    I came across a quote by Tod or Ron Jarrett, a professional shooter who represents Para USA. Jarret claims to have shot 1.7 million rounds in his career and says that the first million were wasted in learning how to shoot…. I’ve calculated that I just might reach a million in this lifetime at my current rate of shooting. Jarrett claimed that he had a gun in his hand for two hours every day. How, he afforded this with firearms is a mystery to me, even taking reloading into consideration. But, it is financially feasible with airguns. I’m inspired. Jarrett reminds me of primitive man who we were talking about awhile ago who is subjected to an environment that is so much more challenging than we are familiar with that he could do things seemingly impossible.

    • BG Farmer:
      Now that was an interesting link and has answered a question that has bugged me for years.
      How did they make barrels for rifles before industrialisation?

  14. Has anyone else checked out the FX Independence? A very interesting air rifle. It is a PCP with a pump handle on board. The barrel is rifled only at the end of the muzzle, and it also sounds about as quiet as a mouse sneeze. I don’t care for the spindly side lever, it seems a bolt would be superior.

    Here is a good video:


    • Slinging lead:
      The thing I like about springers over PCPs is the self contained workings of a Springer.No pumps and bottles etc.
      This rifle is like the best of both worlds.
      Do you know how much it sells for and do they provide ‘easy terms’? πŸ™‚

  15. BG_Farmer

    Thanks for that link. A great article that I have bookmarked.

    As I scrolled down through the story I saw the first photo and thought, “It’s BG Farmer!” Alas, I realize that is only wishful thinking.

    Then I saw the photos of the gentleman at the end of the article and decided that was probably you. Then again I am probably wrong.

    Please tell me you at least wear overalls.

    One can only admire the mountain men that are the subject of this article. Not only were these displaced Scots and Irish consummate survivalists, but also gave rise to bluegrass music. God bless their angry little souls.

    “If it’s not Scottish, it’s Crap!”

    • Slinging lead:
      Me and the old man(Dad) have got a little Banjo/accordion combo going on.
      Neither of us is fantastic and I am only using a small 8 bass but we get by.
      A tune we are trying to work out and add to our playlist is ‘Man of constant sorrow’from the film ‘Oh Brother where art though’.
      What a banging number.

      • DaveUK

        If you ever visit the US again, please look me up. Man of Constant Sorrow is one of my all time favorites. I love the soggy-bottom boys version, but Ralph Stanley is an icon, and not to be ignored.

        Banjo AND accordion?! Are you freaking kidding me? Those are probably my favorite musical instruments. You must add the bag pipes and drums of course, Scotland The Brave</em doesn't come off as well on the accordion! πŸ˜‰

        I would love to hear you playing music with the old man!

        Cheers, from your mate from the States.

        • Slinging lead:
          After many years of resisting playing my dads stuff I now love it.
          ‘Tom Dooley’ ‘Green back Dollar’ ‘Rock island line’ ‘melancholy blues”John Henry’ etc plus all the old Irish standard songs.
          No scottish tunes at the moment but soon no doubt.
          Gone is my Roland Synth and rock band pretentions.
          I bought a cheap piano Accordion no bigger than a loaf of bread for Β£60 and can’t help grinning from ear to ear when I play it.
          The old man has also got a cheap Mandolin as well.
          Neither of us is technical but we have got rhythm. πŸ™‚

  16. HK

    You have two very cool hobbies for a 14 year old! Speaking as an old fart, in comparison to you, I would say that these endeavors are the perfect compliment to each other. Mountain biking requires intensity, speed, concentration and confidence, airgunning requires a more relaxed aspect, but again, concentation and confidence are key.

    Right now you are nearly impervious to injury and are able to soak up skills and knowledge at a pace that is staggering to me at my age. Ride as much as you can, while it comes so easy!

    As for your slang, I had never heard the term “the meat” before. “Hucking” I am familiar with. It seems Canadians do it best. Tyler ‘Super T’ Klassen is among my favorites.


    My fellow old farts can mute your speakers before you check out the link.

  17. What to do??? My suggestion is to ignore it,shoot, and enjoy yourself. People can get so wound up over things like velocities, pellet weights, perfect hold, scope alignment, etc. that shooting isn’t fun anymore. This is supposed to be a fun hobby! If you are getting too wound up in these details, go in the house and find the most simple airgun in your closet. It might even be a BB gun. Hang a can in a tree and grin when you hit it.

    David Enoch

  18. Just a couple comments here. On the oil discussion from yesterday, I think I remember the situation with the detergent oil. A fellow starting into BB gun collecting was buying lots of old BB guns from estate sales. Hoping to rejuvenate them, he was oiling them up good with detergent oil. He reported the oil ate up the seals.

    That was enough to put me off from ever using detergent oil in an airgun. He switched to non-detergent oil and has encountered no problems with it. This was on the Daisy Talk Forum.

    So I use 30weight non-detergent motor oil. The stuff is cheaper by the quart than regular motor oil. For about $3 you get maybe a lifetime supply.

    I found it is hard these days to find ordinary oil cans. So I bought a clear plastic squeeze bottle, like you put mustard or ketchup in. They cost less than a dollar. That’s cheap enough for me.

    When I was a kid, I’d oil my Daisy Model 94 with 3-in-1 oil. Maybe not the best stuff to use, but it did OK and I didn’t know any better anyhow.

    Invasive Species: We are encountering a huge problem in this country with zebra mussels. They breed like crazy in fresh water. They plug up everything from boat motors to powerplant water intakes.

    I can relate to kudzu problems. When I was driving trains in Mississippi, I’ve actually had trains stall out in this stuff on hills. There were days when I would run one direction over a line in the morning, cutting off the vines that grew over the rails. By the same afternoon, it would have grown back and I’d be cutting it again! It can grow over a foot per day! I would not have believed this if I had not seen it for myself.

    The stuff is incredibly heavy. Once I ran a locomotive down a long-unused siding covered with the stuff. When I gathered up an armfull of it to clear off the front of my engine, it was like trying to lift a laundry tub full of water.

    Occasionally, someone will try to find a use for it. I have eaten jelly made from the flowers. It tastes good. The flowers themselves are small and purple, and have a smell that to me smells like Grape Nehi soda.


  19. Matt61,
    Accuracy is all relative. I can shot circles around my S&W .357 magnum with the Ruger Single Six. But if I was playing for money I would pick a .22 LR bull barrel semi auto pistol. Don’t get me wrong, the Single Six is way more fun and more accurate than most can shot off hand, especially me.

    As far as which shoots flatter, a .22 pellet with the same BC as a .177 pellet both traveling 895 fps -will be the virtually the same.

  20. Edith/Tom,

    I don’t know how you guys do it. I always thought I wanted to do something for a career that I loved as a hobby. When I got out of the military, I went to work for a custom cabinet shop. This was my dream job, as I have always loved woodworking, and I imagined that it wouldn’t get any better than owning my own cabinet shop one day.

    It didn’t take me long to realize that even if I owned my own shop, I would never really be working for myself. Every business needs customers, and those customers dictate many things, like how long you get to spend on a project, what kind of materials are used, budget, etc. Oftentimes, these factors translate into how many shortcuts have to be taken to continue to meet the customers’ expectations. I didn’t want to work on a deadline or use cheap materials or take shortcuts… I just wanted to turn out the best product possible at a “reasonable” price.

    This it why I so admire you and Tom. You are both obviously making a living doing many things that you absolutely love, and staying highly motivated all the while. I know I don’t see the whole picture – maybe it took you guys a long time to get there, or maybe there are times that one or both of you never want to look at another airgun again. But it never comes across that way.

    Somehow, this tangent was the result of reading another update on Tom’s prospering status.

    – Orin

    • Orin,

      I’ve heard horror stories about spouses who cannot work together. Tom and I do it seamlessly, and have done so for close to 20 years. We’ve had 2 completely different businesses and had a breather in between the 2 for about 3 years, when we worked for other people.

      Airguns, firearms…it’s all the same. Guns, guns, guns. It’s what we do. I’m content, he’s content. What more could you ask? Life’s a journey. Tom’s stay in the hospital is just a stop on the railroad track of life. Stuff happens.

      Highly motivated? It’s Friday night, 9:33 central time as I write this, and I’m still working feverishly trying to play catch up! I’ll work all day Saturday and all day Sunday. We never take a full day off. We get burned out sometimes. Then, we just take off half a day in the middle of the week and go to the movies. We work together, we play together…and, even better, we laugh together. Life is good. What more could you ask?


      • Edith,

        My wife and I are fortunate in that respect (working together effectively). I’m a perfectionist and she is a multi-tasking, people-managing, resource-compiling, workflow-directing, efficiency-seeking, productivity-enhancing machine. Probably much like yourself. When we tackle a project together, sometimes our work styles clash, but the final product is never anything less than spectacular (because of me), and it’s always delivered on time (because of her). πŸ˜€

        – Orin

      • Edith, am I right that you had no background in guns before meeting Tom?

        Volvo, what you said makes sense to me about BC. However, supposing that both pellets are an identical shape, then the BC for the .22 will have to be different than .177 because of the larger diameter. Is that right? Equivalently, for the two calibers to have the same BC, the .22 will have to be slimmer and more elongated, yes?

  21. Edith,

    Not to add to your travails, but… any chance the search feature can once again be made to link to all the comments in the old blogger? There is such a wealth of info there that I’m always wanting to refer back to…


    • AlanL

      To search the old blogs I click on the archives to the right. Then I search the archives using the old search box. I agree that the new search box needs to search the old blogs if that is possible. For now, this workaround seems to work OK.

      • S-L,

        Trouble is, many of the links, instead of bringing up the old comments page redirect to the new blog with an “Error 404 – Page not Found” error.


        • Alan

          When I click anything in the HISTORICAL ARCHIVES section, it pulls up the old blog. A random sampling of two dozen blogs so far brings up the old blogger comment window. I would say perhaps I am lucky, but that very notion is so ridiculous as to be laughable. I will keep trying to see if I can get the error you speak of.


          The historical archives section will not be going away at any point will it?

          • Slinging Lead,

            Eventually, all blogs entries will be moved to this site. Til then, everything will stay in place. The blog comments, which I made sure would not go away, will still be available no matter where the blog postings are located.


            I’ve never found a link to the archived comments that gives me an error message. Please provide the link to any that you find.


  22. To any metallurgist or physicist out there,

    What would be the nearest appropriate metal to make a solid pointed bullet out of, to substitute for a lead 18-grain diabolo pellet yet still remain close to that weight?


    • RE: Substitute for lead

      I haven’t looked at metals for a while. But the Lone Ranger was right. Silver would make pretty good bullets or pellets. There must be some alloy that would work. A couple of other factors. First lead is pretty cheap. You’d want a metal alloy about the same density or better, and as soft as lead. That way the pellet forms to the barrel easily without a lot of friction.

      Lead has a density of 11.34 gΒ·cmβˆ’3
      Brinell hardness (GPa) 0.0383

      Silver has a density of 10.49 gΒ·cmβˆ’3
      Brinell hardness (GPa) 0.0245

      Uranium is better at 19.1 gΒ·cmβˆ’3
      Brinell hardness (GPa)2.4

      So a depleted uranium round would great for squirrels with the titanium exoskeleton, but the depleted uranium round would wear the barrel out fast. It would also have to be made a tad smaller so that it wouldn’t create so much friction going through the barrel. But without the lands cutting into the pellet, you’d essentially be smoothing a smooth-bore.


      • Herb, the best thing to do would be to do something similar to the armor piercing sabot round that the US army M1A1 Abrams tank shoots. Its a DU (Depleted Uranium) sabot round. You could take RWS hyper velocity rounds and replace the tin alloy with DU. The plastic skirt/sabot portion would contact the barrel and not damage it. After firing the plastic skirt would leave the barrel and separate from the DU tip. It would still have inertia so similar to RWS hyper rounds the plastic skirt would have some velocity but too much drag to go far.


  23. Alan i am only hobby-shooter but i think that Chuck is too much bonded for his amunittion so i would not change nothing -alternative for lead are hyper velocity field pellets (plastic skirt made from steal you know what i mean) but in my humble experience lead pellets are better,more accurate and more reliable

  24. Croatia-Serbia,
    Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here but I believe there are only a few pure lead pellets available. If, when you call me too bonded, you mean because I mentioned lead/tin, I’m thinking most pellets are lead/tin bonds with only a small amount of tin or am I thinking of lead firearm bullets?

    • Nope lead/antimony not lead/tin. For Crosman pellets.

      There are some Tin (or tin alloy) pellets which are lead free. Prometheus Non Lead Pellets come to mind.


  25. Chuck it is only couse you mentioned this before πŸ™‚ just a joke on my bad english ,i am talking about air guns (come yust shoot and enjoy).Hyper velocity field pellets are lead free pointed pellets-what do you think about cooper pellets i heard (probably it is yust a urban mith)that they tend to scratch barell(from inside)!?

    • Croatia-Serbia, There are no copper pellets. There are however a few pellets by H&N that are lead with a copper plating. For .177 cal you can get the “Power” variants of Baracuda and Field Target Trophy, and they are copper plated. There are also Beeman Field Target Special and Kodiak’s that are the “Double Gold” variant. For all other calibers there is only the Beeman branded copper plated pellets available. I really want H&N to start producing them under their label. Also, FYI the copper plating does not damage the rifling or barrel. In fact it leaves less lead fouling and means you won’t have to clean the barrel as often. Cheers!

  26. Croatia-Serbia,
    From what I’ve read on this blog anything that is hyper velocity is also NOT accurate. Right now I’m into accuracy so I stay sub-sonic where the most accuracy is.

    I don’t know about copper pellets, but we’ve been warned here on this blog. Do not shoot copper bb’s in our rifled pellet guns because they will damage the rifling. So, if copper bb’s will do damage then maybe copper pellets will too. On the other hand why then did anyone even make and sell copper pellets if they will do damage?

    And, just so you don’t think I’m working too hard, I AM having fun weighing and shooting the different pellets. Plus, if weighed pellets improve my eMatch scores, then all the more fun I’ll be having.


    • Chuck, copper BB’s are not copper BB’s. They are steel, with a thin plating of copper on them for rust prevention. It’s the steel that damages rifled bores, not the copper.

      • Vince,
        Thanks for that. I’m sure I should have read that on this blog over the last year. Just goes to show I don’t remember even half of what I’ve read.

        Let us know how those hyper copper pellets work out for you if you decide to shoot some.

  27. Could not agree more!i ve kinda tangled in words so sorry becouse i confused you ,i am also confused :)and i never used copper pellets and no need to risk ps When i said that you are bonded with your pellets i confuse you and Ryan -that guy arealy loves his pellets(again sorry for misunderstanding),-and Ryan i am kidding man you are legend dude πŸ˜‰

    • Croatia-Serbia,
      OK, now I understand. No need to apologize, though. I don’t know Ryan personally but I’ll bet he’s not bad company πŸ™‚

      • You know it Chuck! Croatia-Serbia, your English is very good. I am impressed. I had a dream about swimming in a sea of Kodiak Double Gold’s. I woke up and was instantly depressed for I was not surrounded by copper plated pellets. πŸ™

  28. Does anyone know if BB guns can be shot into a trap such that the BBs are reusable? Or are they compromised somehow? I would love to do it with pellets, but lead deforms and the rifling messes up the skirt even if you caught the pellet in a trap that doesn’t deform the lead…

    • You can hang some heavy denim or sail cloth in a card board box over a dowl rod and reuse bbs if you use a low powered gun like a Red Ryder. Stronger guns shoot through the cloth. Keep it under 300 fps.

      Collect the bbs and blow the dirt and cardboard out of them before reloading.


        • Oh yeah…
          Stick with paper targets and other things that won’t give you a bounce back.

          If you want to make a mess you could glue some breakfast cerial on a piece of construction paper for a target.


          • Oh that does sound fun. I never thought of using food for targets, but now that I’m thinking along those lines. If only I had something to hold potato chips. I could shoot them and they would break up.


        • I guess you could look around on PA for something. Keep it spring powered. Co2 will be too fast for the backstop. Possibly Crosman bb/pellet pumper with only one pump.


          • Good idea! They actually sell a cheap youth Crosman BB/pellet gun that is multi-pump pneumatic. They have two models that are similar for $35 and $50 a piece. I will look into those as I would like the fact that they double as not super accurate single shot pellet guns. Thanks for bringing that up!


                • OK…
                  The Daisy with one pump.. 273 fps. 2 pumps 413 fps.
                  Pretty consistent. Also very quiet.
                  It has been used a lot. One pump should be good.

                    • While it may be just something with that particular gun, at first it did not shoot very good with either kind of ammo.
                      I got to using it for shooting the hornworms off my tomato plants. Got a whole lot of practice doing that with bbs. Finally noticed that it was getting to shoot pretty darn good, and with pellets too.
                      Guess the steel shot rubbed the rough spots out of the barrel.

  29. I want to make pellet art. I’m thinking a collage of Kodiak Double Gold’s. Like a wave of Baracuda Match crashing onto the beach of Kodiak Double Gold’s. I can see it in my minds eye, but I’m not that artistic. Someone turn my dream into a reality and Ill buy it from you. πŸ˜›

  30. I forgot to ask the obvious question about .22 LR ammo. Which is the best kind? I know that it depends on the firearm somewhat. On the other hand, perhaps there are brands that tend to do well with all guns like JSB Exacts. Is there an equivalent for .22LR? My impression is that Eley is the class act. Is that right? Anyone know what Olympians shoot? I don’t believe that .22 LR is reloadable, so they must use production ammo.

    I have picked up and even fired my Single Six. Actually, the grips felt small and a bit odd after my 1911. My pinkie was sliding off the grip, and the gun was surprisingly heavy. But it shot well and radiates quality. I’m very pleased. While at the gun store, I used their shooting range to have a 9mm festival and fired off a total of 50 rounds of 9mm from a Glock and a Beretta. I proclaim them both outstanding guns. They felt great and shot very well. “Poodle-shooter” is not the term that comes to mind, but I guess the recoil was substantially less because I was not heeling the gun and dropping my shots low as I still do occasionally with my 1911. The Glock was more interesting in feeling blocky but firing very well. However, I would rate it below the Beretta because of its safety which is built into the trigger. Why bother having a safety at all? In this connection you can find a YouTube video of a muscular member of the LAPD holding a Glock .40 and telling a classroom of students: “I am the only one in this room professional enough to handle this gun.” BOOM. Anyway, I think that sometimes the gun magazines and the various forums go over board in arguing about the merits of one gun over another. We’re probably living in the time of the highest level of gun technology and all the major makes are very good.

    The Single Six is not the only addition to my collection. There is another shiny gun sitting in my living room and waiting for action. Since I know you all are sitting on the edge of your seats and busting to know, I will not torture you excessively. πŸ™‚ You have until Monday to guess. I will let you know bright and early on that day (Pacific time). (I love playing B.B.) My only hint comes from when everyone was trying to guess his secret which turned out to be the Discovery. I suggested the Air Force Edge, and his reply was that the Edge was an iguana and that I should think in terms of Jurassic Park. There you have it.

  31. Herb,

    My thoughts were prompted by your rubbing the lamp for Rocket Jane to appear, with the comment about a solid (non-diabolo) pellet for maximum range. Silver hmmm? Any vampires around?

    Somebody mentioned depleted uranium for the armor piercing shells. I once was told by the manufacturer of tantalum sheets and bar stock in Pennsylvania that that was the metal used for the jackets of armor-piercing antitank rounds. It is an interesting metal: only 2 or 3 places to the left of gold on the periodic table, it is very dense and heavy, and harder than the hardest of steels yet drawable and malleable. Also more stainless than the most rustproof of stainless steels, and superconductive when very cold. Naturally, it is (or was, when last I looked) five times the price of silver.


    • AlanL, isn’t depleted uranium super poisonous?

      Regarding our discussion about the trajectory of .177 and .22. Assuming they have the same powerplant, they will be subject to the same energy, and the lighter pellet will have to release this energy in terms of velocity. Higher velocity means flatter trajectory since there is less time for gravity to pull it down. However, lighter weight also means less inertia to stop wind drift which is the other problem with .177.

      • Matt Serbia was bombarded with “depleted uranium” 1999 !It is joke to you but “depletet”is not safe that means IT IS STILL RADIOACTIVE so it is still no no πŸ™‚

        • Croatia-Serbia, I never considered depleted uranium a joke. I don’t believe anyone has started to reckon the effects of all the depleted uranium scattered around Iraq and Afghanistan.

  32. Matt61:
    I have not been lucky enough to fire a Glock but I have held one though.
    I agree what a strange set up to have the safety in the trigger.
    Particularly as it has no external hammer.
    Our Met Police use them and I have heard of a few accidental discharge incidents by DPG (Diplomatic protection Group)officers.
    It was,maybe still is,common practice for those guys to ‘leave one up the spout’,cocked and loaded in other words.

    On the subject of pellets I have wrote before about a sabot round called ‘Sussex Sabos’.
    My mate had some in .177 calibre back in the mid 80s.
    Firing them from his crossman pump pistol at his mums nasty plastic Garden ornaments they were amazing.
    An ordinary dome headed pellet would just bounce off the thick plastic.
    The Sabot rounds would pierce them no problem leaving a small pin sized hole.
    It even warned on the tin lid that these pellets may take your velocities into FAC territory.
    Can I find them anywhere now?
    No I bloody can’t πŸ™
    Also in one of my many incarnations my old trade was dental mechanics.
    Acrylic and Ceramics in particular could make for some interesting pellets I reckon,especially in a sabot.

    • Dave, things get even dicier with the Glock when you carry it concealed. Not only is it bulky and uncomfortable, but, many concealed carry positions have the muzzle pointing right at the femoral artery. Some policemen report sweating it out on duty. Too bad, since it’s an intriguing and otherwise functional design.

      • Matt61:
        On that same occasion I held a Browning Hi Power 9mm.
        I couldn’t comment about firing it I am afraid, but it did feel good in the hand compared to the Glock which seemed top heavy and a right handfull.
        The British SAS swore by them Hi Powers for many many years.

    • Mr. B. Your logic is impeccable, but no .44 magnum. If I was going that route, I believe that I would get an SW 29. As a matter of fact, my Dad has been badgering me for one. His reasoning is all Dirty Harry. Partly it is almost the biggest handgun round. Second, is our favorite line from the character. It’s not: “Make my day” nor is it “Do you feel lucky?” It’s the scene where Dirty Harry is serving as a courier for a hostage deal. The psychopath has the drop on him and is making him give up his weapons.

      Psycho: “The gun. Left hand. Slowly … My that’s a big one.” πŸ™‚

  33. Well, it sounds like depleted uranium may be a bit impractical. How about the other end of the scale? A bismuth metal-based alloy. Would bismuth metal alloy with lead? Zinc, maybe?


  34. DaveUK,

    A dental mechanic at some point in your past, how interesting! I’m thinking about a mould for casting tube pellets. Is this something you’d be interested in pursuing?

    Glock safety–think double action revolver and not semiauto pistol. Neither one have a manuel safety. They rely on a long trigger pull and not the separate movement of a lever or button for the gun to go bang. Yes I know, all you Glock afficandos, including both my older sons, will take umbrage at that thought, but I stand by my words.

    One up the spout, if it’s a cary gun yes, in my humble opinion, that’s the only way to go.

    Mr B.

    • Mr B:
      Experimenting with pellet design using cold cure acrylic is something I have thought about I must say.
      A pellet with a hole through it,now that IS new.
      I still have a couple of old drills,burrs and a small cold cure hydro flask.
      Unfortunately I have no dental plaster or acrylic and liquid supplies to experiment with.
      And they are not cheap πŸ™
      Using a plaster mould has limitations because you will probably lose the mould after every casting and being an acrylic man (not Chrome cobalt,gold or ceramic)I am not sure how it would stand up to hot lead.
      How I would make a prototype though is, for a basic template use an existing pellet.
      The .22 RWS Hyper velocity field pellet with the bullet head removed has already got more or less the shape and size you want.
      Using dental wax I would fill in the existing holes and enhance the front and rear shape of the plastic shell.
      I would make a two half stone plaster mould using that template.
      Plaster is easy to work so cut a pour hole after.
      Being a prototype,bore a hole in the slug after it is caste so as to be able to experiment with hole sizes and shapes.

      You may also be able to to rudimentary tests using them Hyper velocity .22s by just tinkering with them a little.
      Use a strong epoxy resin to fill and shape and a tiny drill bit to bore the holes.
      Hope that helps Mr B

  35. I purchased a BSF S-20 W-CM air pistol from Air Rifle Headquarters years ago and I never used itβ€”still in the original box
    I wanted to get in touch with Tom Gaylord to find out if someone would be interested in purchasing it but I don’t have his
    email. Would someone be able to help me or perhaps know of any interested parties?

    Eliot Feldman

  36. In you want to deliver leathal shot to pest don t you think that pellet deformation is important -sure you can try your luck with steal but my opinion is that pest will only be harmed( as wounded )and it will die in pain.In fishermans terms we have something that is known as “soft lead”so consider that!

    • C-S,

      This is all just a hypothetical discussion. Nobody wants to use ANY hard metal for a pellet or bullet because it would harm the rifling or bore of your barrel. The objective here is to try to discover what is the optimum combination of mass and shape for maximum range, for the fun of it.


  37. My point was- when i said “steal” i meant steal in plastic skirt and i am not expert but isn t lead enough i meant to sead you must have mass and speed to deliver inpact

    • C-S,

      Your English is excellent- don’t worry, we all understand you! But I will mention one tiny thing– “steal” is to perform theft, to take something that is not yours; “steel” is the alloy of iron that you have in mind!


  38. Against my better judgment, another clue along the lines of the Da Vinci Code. CowBoyStar Dad and BG_Farmer together possess the key to the secret…. πŸ™‚

  39. Update on Crosman custom 2300KT:

    Here in Miami we never have a problem with CO2 getting too cold or shooting too quickly for velocities to drop. On a lark I decided to buy some Daisy Shatterblast sticks and rounds and stuck em in the grass 20 yards away. My brother-in-law (the inveterate reloading hunter) and I were sitting by the pool sipping a few adult beverages when my wife came out to join us.

    “Honey, remember your pistol I gave you a couple of months back? Here it is.”
    “Uh… yeah, my pistol.” She frowns.
    “Try it, why don’t you.”
    “C’mon sis!” (My brother-in-law)
    “Ok, load it for me.”
    “Already loaded. Here’s the safety. Push this button. See the red ring? Red is hot. Ready to fire.”

    She aims at the shatterblast. Dusk is rapidly approaching. Twilight is gorgeous and the mosquitos are coming out to feast.

    Bang! The shatterblast blasts and shatters.

    “Wow baby! How’d you do that?”
    Big smile. No answer.
    “Here, let me load it for you again. It’s easy. See?”

    I feed it another CP light.

    Bang! Shatterblast #2 flies in the air.

    “Damn! You’re good! That’s 20 yards away!”

    Darkness is falling rapidly now. She still says nothing. Pulls the bolt back. I hand her a pellet.

    Bang! Shatterblast #3 shatters into pieces.

    “This is nice! I like MY pistol,” she says.

    So that’s where we’re at. It’s HER pistol again, and I’ve discovered she’s a mean, ice-blooded deadly shot. I sit there and can’t hit my beer can at 20 yards with the custom Lothar Walter 10.1″ barrel. It’s just not fair.

    She sashays off back into the house and flicks us a backward glance with a little smile. My brother-in-law and I just stare after her and then look at each other and shake our heads.

    I better go buy some more pellets.


    • Great story, AlanL. I wish I could get my wife involved. She’s shot a few of my guns, but in general, wants nothing to do with them. Then again, maybe I’m ok with her not infringing on my hobby. πŸ™‚

      – Orin

      • Thanks Les! So, “less is more” you say. Hmmm… not to worry, the front sight was still sharply in focus, not yet blurry, and no hiccups to disturb my aim. Just my heartbeat, my jangling nerves, the wind, the mosquitos, the light, those dang dirty rotten no good pellets, and…. oh well.

  40. Does this concern anyone else?

    I received a disturbing e-mail today. I’m not trying to start any fierce political debates. I just don’t follow politics very closely and am curious – is this (potential) method of implementing gun control valid/possible? Here’s the e-mail:

    While you were watching the oil spill, the New York failed terrorist bombing and other critical crises, Hillary Clinton signed the small arms treaty with the UN.

    Obama finds legal way around the 2nd amendment and uses it.

    On Wednesday Obama Took the First Major Step in a Plan to Ban All Firearms in the United States.

    By signing international treaties on gun control, the Obama administration can use the US State Department to bypass the normal legislative process in Congress. Once the US Government signs these international treaties, all US citizens will be subject to those gun laws created by foreign governments. These are laws that have been developed and promoted by organizations such as the United Nations and individuals such as George Soros and Michael Bloomberg. The laws are designed and intended to lead to the complete ban and confiscation of all firearms. The Obama administration is attempting to use tactics and methods of gun control that will inflict major damage to our 2nd Amendment before US citizens even understand what has happened.

    Obama can appear before the public and tell them that he does not intend to pursue any legislation (in the United States) that will lead to new gun control laws. While cloaked in secrecy, his Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton is committing the US to international treaties and foreign gun control laws. Does that mean Obama is telling the truth? What it means is that there will be no publicized gun control debates in the media or votes in Congress. We will wake up one morning and find that the United States has signed a treaty that prohibits firearm and ammunition manufacturers from selling to the public. We will wake up another morning and find that the US has signed a treaty that prohibits any transfer of firearm ownership. And then, we will wake up yet another morning and find that the US has signed a treaty that requires US citizens to deliver any firearm they own to the local government collection and destruction center or face imprisonment. This has happened in other countries, past and present!

    As sure as government health care will be forced on us by the Obama administration through whatever means necessary, so will gun control. The United States reversed policy on Wednesday and said it would back launching talks on a treaty to regulate arms sales as long as the talks operated by consensus, a stance critics said gave every nation a veto (see link below). The decision, announced in a statement released by the U.S. State Department, overturns the position of former President George W. Bush’s administration, which had opposed such a treaty on the grounds that national controls were better.


    – Orin

    • Orin,

      I believe any treaty the US enters into with the UN only applies to our dealings with other nations, not our internal policy. For instance, a treaty like this could affect our supply of ammunition and arms obtained from overseas sources.

      It should not affect our internal markets, except to drive up the prices of imported items. Bad, but not a disaster.

      As much as certain individuals may want to take away our Second Amendment Rights, this UN treaty will not do it.

      I think we are about to experience a political sea change in this country this fall.


      • Thanks, DD. I totally agree with your last sentence.

        I don’t really have a strong affiliation with either party. I tend to think we need a switch-a-roo every now and then to balance things out, before they go too far in any one direction. I almost feel bad for the staunch Democrats this time around, like as if they had an opportunity to really shine, and things blew up in their faces.

        – Orin

  41. Matt,
    I have a guess, Marlin 1894 Cowboy gun in .357magnum. If that’s it I’m going to be jealous.
    On your .22LR question, Eley (Team EPS, now I think, Tenex has been discontinued?), Lapua (MidasX?) and RWS (R50, I think) are top brands (I’m not sure about the lines); any could win the Olympics, although I’m sure Olympians get special batches, like CCI’s legendary run for the US Team.
    For a single-six, any of those are overkill. I would try some of the CCI standard velocity rounds — they work well. CCI in general is very reliable, and even the Minimags (high velocity) are pretty accurate. From the random gunstore selection, American Eagles are also OK, and I’ve had great luck with Federal Automatch in some lots, even though it is a bulk hv ammo. Since the gun is convertible (don’t know if that makes bore a bit sloppy), you might also want to try hollowpoints also. For some reason, hollowpoints seem to shoot better in rifles with worn out bores, whether from higher speed (thus spin) or more obturation, I don’t know, but my old Glenfield 60 hates solids and loves hollowpoints:).
    I just finished my first ML club shoot. I was so nervous that I didn’t want to take a practice shot (to foul the barrel) and risk a miss that might rattle me, so my first shot on the novelty target just hit paper (low), then realized I had no idea where the scoring zones were:). Placed 2nd (out of 15?) in 25 yard small bull and generally stayed close enough to the target so as not to be too ashamed in the other rounds (went up to 50 yards), and had a great time in general. Next time should be more fun and less stressful, but I enjoyed it anyway.

  42. Dear Edith,

    The PA website, just like this blog, is a gold mine of interesting information. Why make it disappear? Case in point: The drop-down specifications for the following rifles are gone:

    While on the subject of the drop-down specs for air rifles, I’d like to suggest that the default view for these always be “open” instead of “closed”. I find that whenever I visit any particular rifle on PA’s site, I always want to see the specs, and I find it annoying to always have to click on “click for specifications”. Just my 1.9 cents worth.


    • I don’t know… I kind of like the current setup. I, too, almost always expand the specs. But when I open them, everything else (caliber, velocity, price, stock options) is pushed further down the page where I have to scroll to see it. Personally, I feel this basic info is more important to see at a glance than the detailed specs. I also think this layout helps to maintain cleaner and more organized aesthetics.

      – Orin

    • AlanL,

      They don’t remove specs or descriptions when products are discontinued. The lists of specifications for those 2 guns were never filled in. In fact, I believe those pages were never even activated because their specifications listings in Pyramyd Air’s database had no information filled in. If they had been filled in, they would look like this page for the HW97LK, which is discontinued and shows everything except the price and a BUY button.

      Regarding making those specifications listings always being OPEN instead of CLOSED, I have made that suggestion too, but the final decision isn’t mine. One reason I believe it hasn’t been done that way is because you have only 2 seconds to capture the attention of a person once they hit a web page, and putting more words between the gun’s image and the description can turn people off.

      If you look in the left column of that page, you’ll see a green bar that has white print that says MODEL ASSISTANT. In that bar are some tabs, including one that says SPECIFICATIONS. Several years ago, I asked to have those specifications listed under the image because I felt looking in the left column was not intuitive. So, that’s why they’re duplicated under the image. I think that helped a lot of people find specs for guns and probably answered a lot of questions about what a gun had.


  43. Matt61,

    Since I’m goint to keep my analogy going we’ll have to stay with a pistol, but it’ll be a black powder replica of the .44 Colt Walker.

    I have a Smith Model 29, the Dirty Hary one made in 1984 A pretty to look at beautifullied blued, wonderfully smooth in doulbe action and marviously crispt in single action triggered accurate to 100 yards with factory iron sights

    Now for the bad parts it’s a big gun to carry unless you use a sholder holster and it gets heavy as hell after a day of hunting.

  44. Orin,
    I’ve heard from differrent sources and venues some agreeing with that it’ll apply within our country and be used to ban our guns, trample the Second Amendment, and that no it’ll just be used between nations.

    Me personally, I rather err on the side of cautioness rather than trying to repeal something in the future.

    Remember Ladies and Gentlemen that we each have a vote to cast..Pray on how to vote and then GO VOTE!

    God Bless and Thanks,
    Mr B.

    • Ebola,

      The Titan stock does look remarkably Trail NP like (XL has a capped grip). It’s not uncommon for a store (especially with WalMart’s buying power) to negotiate a proprietary design based off a similar item. This may well be the Trail NP, but without the barrel shroud, checkering, adjustable scope, sling mounts, scope rail, etc. 710 FPS for 14.3 CP’s seems about right.

      – Orin

      • Yeah. The extra accessories on the Trail NP would probably make the price tag go up a bit but the Titan GP is a pretty good budget Nitro Piston rifle and the one with the lowest price tag. Perhaps it has the best performance to price ratio out of all the NPs…

        • Ebola,

          Agreed, but I’m a little surprised the barrel shroud went away. You would think that reduced noise would be a big selling point for all the urban hunters that undoubtedly shop there. What kind of scope rail does the Titan come with – standard dovetail? Is there a stop pin hole?

          – Orin

          • Ebola/Orin,
            Does Wal-Mart know something we don’t? Or is it just a cost savings? Do you think there is a possibility that Wal-Mart might be afraid of running afoul of the Feds by selling rifles with shrouds in all states? I think shrouded air-rifles are currently sold in all states by mail order, etc. but a huge, huge, huge merchant like W-M would make a very juicy target for anti-shrouders.

            • Chuck,

              I don’t see what the big deal is because these shrouds are only good for the muzzle crown protection and for show mainly and don’t function at all as a silencer. Pick one up at Wal-mart and check it out! It is a terrifying gun!

              • Ebola,

                I respectfully disagree. I know shrouds have a much greater impact on PCP’s and CO2’s than springers, but I took the shroud off my Trail XL to test fire it and the report was significantly louder. That’s the XL, not the NP, so I’m not exactly comparing apples to apples, but pretty close.


                I think it’s just a cost savings thing. WalMart probably told Crosman “We want a version of your Trail NP that we can retail for under $150.” I know it’s much more complicated than that, but if WalMart wanted to tack $20 onto the price point, I’m sure they could have offered it with a shroud.

                – Orin

          • Orin,

            It is the standard dovetail rail with the hole for scope break.

            Regarding the shroud… It does have a shroud of similar lengths to the Gamo’s sold on Walmart.com:

            But it does NOT have the complete muzzle shroud that goes all the way back to the barrel break point like the Trail NP Hardwood.

            It would be very interesting if this rifle could be reviewed by B.B. πŸ™‚

            • Ebola,

              Cool, thanks. Is that actually a shroud (LDC/silencer) or just a muzzle break? If it’s an LDC, I would be very surprised, as one could argue that it could be removed (Unscrewed? Cut off?) and fit onto another gun. The BATF would have a fit.

              – Orin

              • Orin,

                You can remove the muzzle break. Two allen screws hold the muzzle break to the barrel. πŸ™‚

                Maybe it is an LDC… I really don’t know. Go to Wal-mart and pick one up. πŸ™‚ Get it’s hot!

  45. The Storm XT also hit the shelves at Walmart. Both the Titan GP and the Storm XT comes with Centerpoint 4×32 scopes. The triggers are identical and both of them are metal triggers so they can be replaced with GTRIII.

    • Ebola,

      I bought a Storm XT from WalMart a couple of years ago. I think they’ve been stocking those for quite some time, at least in my area. It came with a 3-9×40 CenterPoint scope.

      – Orin

      • Orin,

        They are using a new clear plastic package now instead of the traditional cardboard box. Since there is a new packaging all the ‘old’ guns are being sold at a fair discount. I found the Airmaster marked down from $84 to $64, the Daisy 880s from $45 to $35, etc. The ‘new’ Storm XT does not have the 3-9×40 scope. I think the 4×32 scope is one of the reasons why the pricetag of the Trail GP is so low compared to the other NPs. If they sold the Storm XT at $109 before with a 3-9×40 and now they sell it with a lesser scope at the same price just doesn’t sit right with me. The 4×32 scope imho is good enough for the safety margin kill range delivered by both guns.

        I wish they would include open sights on the NP guns but none of them seen to have it. The open sights on the Storm XT was perfect out of the box but I have a hard time seeing where it hits exactly so I use a scope. This is strange because I use the open sights on the Crosman 1377 just fine at the same distance and have no complaint about my ability to see the target. πŸ™‚

        • Ebola,

          Yeah, $109 was right around what I paid for it. Thanks for the heads up on the deals. Too bad they’re not changing the packaging on CO2. πŸ™‚

          I don’t blame them for the packaging changes. My first airgun was a WalMart GAMO Big Cat. It broke inside of 90 days, and when I went to exchange it, all three of the remaining boxes were opened and the scopes and PBA ammo were missing. Who knows how long they were sitting there, unnoticed. Maybe WalMart is hoping that the transparency will help to eliminate/identify shrink.

          – Orin

          • Orin,

            Funny you should say that because the Gamo Big Cat at the Wal-mart here is also ‘open boxed’ and gutted. I got my Big Cat from Cabelas for $80ish or so as a refurb and it works very well. You can return items to Wal-mart even after 90 days without the receipt so long as you have the original package with everything in it. In such cases they will just issue you a gift card for the current value of the item so make sure you didn’t get something like the Airmaster 77 a few months before because it is marked down $20 by now!

          • Thats so funny that your first airgun was a bigcat from Walmart. I too was looking at getting an air rifle, as I already had a CO2 Pistol, and was looking at the guns walmart sold, mainly because it was easy and quick. I ended up selecting the big cat, not completely on the basis that it has good velocity, but partially because it was the most expensive gun they sold at that Walmart. I used it a little, but changed my mind and bought a Trail NP through PA. I was considering being a jack ass like it sounds like a few people were and return the gun sans PBA ammo. As I was fairly confident the service rep wouldn’t notice. I was in fact correct, but I took it back with all accessories. She even asked what the scope box was, and I told her its the scope it comes with. So yeah, I could have stolen the scope and PBA ammo, but meh. What goes around comes around.

            • Ryan,

              Truly. The customer service reps at WalMart don’t typically strike me as the kind of people who know what to look for when verifying an air rifle return.

              My basis for selecting the Big Cat was exactly the same as yours: expensive (for WalMart), powerful, convenient. I really liked my Big Cat, but the cocking linkage broke. It was very hold insensitive and quite accurate. Had a nice weight and balance to it, came with a decent BSA scope (then… I think now they’re packaged with GAMO scopes), and the synthetic stock was perfect for a first shooter that was prone to being bench rested on a wrought iron fence. When I exchanged it, the replacement was obviously a newer model that felt light, cheap, and vibrated more. I only had it a couple of weeks before I returned it. That’s ok, though, because it spiked my interest in airguns and prompted me to look online for more info. Heeelloooooo, Pyramyd Air!

              – Orin

              • You’re correct Orin, the new scopes that come with Gamo rifles are Gamo brand, and they suck. Mine came with a 3-9×40 without AO. The reason why I returned my gamo is I wanted a gun that was a bit better at all around use. For that role I thought a .22 cal gun would be better, as it can hunt more effectively and still target shoot. I also wanted a Nitro piston for all its benefits, but couldn’t justify getting it aftermarket on the big cat. A $110 upgrade on a $150 gun makes it more expensive than my trail NP. I also love the weaver mount that the Trail has. It is much more robust than a standard dovetail with stop pin. I selected the hardwood Trail as it is more aesthetically pleasing to me. Also, it is about 2 Lbs lighter than the synthetic. Go figure. I have already dinged the wood near the stock screw on one side, but it isn’t major damage. I also like the scope that the trail come with much more than the POS Gamo. I am now looking for a good target .177 cal gun. Looking for a good value as my Trail is very nice to me, and is good enough to be my “top shelf” gun for a while. I’m looking for a youth rifle maybe as they are cheaper and low powered. Let me know if you have any good recommendations.


                • Try the Storm XT for 177. It isn’t bad. $109 @ Wal-mart. Diesels quite loudly but that goes away after about 10 shots.

                  Also keep your eyes out for the Winchester 1000SB:

                  I rang up the UPC on the local K-mart and it showed the discounted price of $44.00 BUT it was not in stock within 50miles from my K-mart. The price in the system is reduced but I fear they’ve cleared it all out by now. The local K-mart downsized their sporting goods department and took away the gun rack.

                  The Big Cat in the pictures from Cabelas came with a BSA 4×32 scope so I don’t know if this is the new gun or the old but seeing how they switched the new Big Cats to plastic triggers I would say this is the old Big Cat with a old scope probably similar to what Orin’s from Wal-mart.

                  Another possible springer is the Walther Talon Magnum. A few (22 cal) can be had for $150ish refurbished. Heard some clean up is required a new seal wouldn’t hurt (https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/6616786.htm)

                • Ryan,

                  I agree that the Crosman Storm XT is ok, but I think you can do much better in the same price range. Plus, it’s a full-size, moderately heavy gun, and I know you mentioned youth rifle (whether for size, velocity, or price, I’m not sure). The XT was more difficult to cock than my Big Cat, and I never got the same accuracy out of it. I actually returned it to Walmart at the same time as the GAMO, having never fallen in love with it.

                  If you’re wanting another springer, I don’t think I would look any further than the Air Venturi Bronco. I don’t have one, but everyone raves about it (nobody has given it less than a 5-star rating). Great stock, great trigger, great sights (does not come scoped), feels tuned out of the box, 530 FPS with CP’s. This is the β€œquality air rifle at a budget price” that everyone hopes to find.

                  If you want something more along the lines of a single-stroke pneumatic, check out the Daisy Powerline 953. No recoil, very quiet, target gun accuracy, highly customer rated (32 5-star ratings out of 41), 500 FPS, 5-shot clip. For $72, I think that would be another great way to go.

                  – Orin

                  • Ryan,
                    I agree with Orin. Both the Bronco and the 953 are excellent, accurate rifles. I have both and like both. I have shot both in the eMatch with satisfying results based on my level. (actually I’m never satisfied. I know I can do better.)

                  • Thank you so much Orin. The Daisy Powerline 953 looks like the one for me. I like that its, cheap, easy to cock, and low recoil. Since this is just for paper punching I didn’t want a break-barrel with 1000 FPS. I wanted something youth like, and not necessarily a break barrel. I like the single pump pneumatic idea for low recoil above all, as its a target gun. Thanks again Orin!


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