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How do you tell them the truth?

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by B.B. Pelletier

I’ll have a report on the LASSO big bore airgun shoot tomorrow. Some history was made. But for now, on to today’s report.

I want to talk about a sensitive subject. How should manufacturers and retailers talk about their products? Is honesty really the best policy?

Last week, my neighbor and I were talking about crossbows. He said a friend of his had bought one and was excited about it until he tried to cock it the first time. I empathized with him because there’s a crossbow sitting in my office right now. It has a draw weight of 150 lbs., which is on the low side of normal for serious crossbows these days.

When I bought the bow, I thought about what it would take to cock it; but then I thought about all the ads where people are having fun with their crossbows. I’m of at least average strength, so shouldn’t I be able to cock one? How can there be companies making and selling crossbows if no one can cock them?

If you want to comment on how to cock a crossbow, feel free, though that’s not really what I’m talking about today. I’m talking about the known difficulties of any product — not if it is or isn’t possible to cock a crossbow. Of course, it’s possible; but if it’s also very hard (and it is), then why does nobody ever mention it? I know that there are several different mechanisms that make it easier to cock crossbows; but if they’re needed, why aren’t they pushed to the front of the ad copy?

Airguns
More to the point, why do we never read about how difficult it can be to cock a magnum breakbarrel springer? Why is it that you can lift 50 lbs. fairly easily, but cocking a breakbarrel that requires a 50-lb. effort seems so daunting?

Here’s my question: Knowing that magnum breakbarrels are difficult to cock, what is a manufacturer’s or retailer’s responsibility for informing their potential customers of this fact? Before you answer, consider that customers will react differently to what they’re told in advertising. One person believes everything they’re told, while another doubts everything. We all fall into this spectrum somewhere.

It doesn’t end there, of course. Besides hard cocking, what about those horrendous triggers that break at 8 lbs. and have a lot of creep? Should the manufacturer say something about them, too? Consider the following two ads:

Comes with adjustable two-stage trigger for precise engagement.

The trigger is heavy and creepy but won’t release accidentally when the gun is jarred.

The two lines of copy describe the same trigger, but with differing levels of honesty.

Here’s another situation. Suppose you’re a retailer and you started your business vowing to never sell anything you wouldn’t personally buy. A lot of people do exactly that before going into business. Now, you’ve been in business for two years; of the hundreds of different models of airguns that are available, you are comfortable with only seven of them. What do you do? Your competition sells all brands and nearly all models, and people are flocking to them for their airguns. You’ve decided that only seven models meet your criteria for acceptance.

You look into this deeper and discover that there are some models that you absolutely detest, but which many people like. These models seem to be overwhelmingly accepted, yet you wouldn’t buy one, nor would you recommend one to anyone else. But people are buying them and, from all reports, they like them. What do you do? You can stick to your high ideals and let the competition sell these guns or you can decide to sell them against your principles or you can go out of business. Are those your only options?

Ignoring the end user…
Edith says she thinks that many airgun manufacturers and retailers don’t have the end user in mind. Just because they make or sell a product doesn’t mean they use it themselves. I see this all the time when I talk to these people at the SHOT Show. The principals of the various companies are often out of touch with their products and completely out of touch with their end consumers — so they watch the more successful companies and try to copy what they’re doing. The blind leading the blind.

…or are they?
But the consumers are also at fault, because they gravitate to things they ultimately don’t like after discovering the hidden flaws. In short — speed sells, no matter what the cost.

So what?
Back in the 1960s, Walther designed a single-stroke pneumatic air target pistol called the LP II. It later evolved into the LP III, a pistol that shoots a .177 target pellet at just under 400 f.p.s. with reasonable accuracy. To pump this pistol takes about 36 lbs. of effort, something you notice right away. Shooters thought the LP III was too difficult to pump for a 60-shot air pistol match, and they were probably right.

In the 1990s, the Russians came out with their IZH 46, another single-stroke target pistol, that pumps with less than 20 lbs. of effort. It shoots the same .177-caliber target pellet with about 40 f.p.s. more velocity than the Walther LP III, but the real breakthrough was the lowered pumping effort. Suddenly, single-strokes were viable for match shooting.

I remember pumping an IZH 46 for the first time. I thought the gun was broken, because it took so little effort to pump. But soon I became comfortable with it, and the LP III then seemed impossible to pump.

The point is that it was possible to make the single-stroke pumping mechanism lighter through the improvement of the pump mechanism geometry. But only a shooter would ever care whether or not it was easier to pump. A salesman who didn’t have to shoot them would look at both pistols and figure one was pretty much like the other.

So my question remains: How truthful should the manufacturer or retailer be in divulging the known performance characteristics of the products they make or sell? If they’re very truthful about an airgun’s performance characteristics (i.e., its flaws), will that cost them sales to their less-honest competition?

The answer
It seems to me that the honest dealer or manufacturer will lose sales to their less-honest competition. Over time, that may balance out through customer dissatisfaction. But will the honest dealer/manufacturer be able to wait that long? It’s ridiculous to imagine a dealer pointing out all the flaws and shortcomings of each product they sell — but what about the glaring ones? The ones that nobody can possibly overlook. Should an airgun salesman be asked to cock a magnum breakbarrel rifle 25 times for the customer? Or should they invite the customer to do it themselves? (But how are you going to do that on a computer?)

I know this train of thought is idealistic, but products do have shortcomings. Should Chevy be telling the public that the Volt may go only 25 or 55 or 80 miles between charges? Or that the battery catches on fire? Or the fact that it isn’t an electric car at all, but a hybrid?

General Motors’ coverups, spin-doctoring and last-ditch “buy back” offer sounds like a political coverup. We know that kind of intentional deceit all too well. But when the product is less well-known, such as airguns, the ability to scrutinize is also diminished. Nobody takes the time to look into such low-profile products.

So how do you tell them the truth?

Postscript from Edith
After Edith proofed this blog, she told me some things that she believes answers some of the questions. Because she works more closely with the different departments at Pyramyd AIR, she’s privy to things that I am not. So, here’s her input.

Pyramyd Air’s product descriptions are intended to inform. If a manufacturer states something that we find out to be inaccurate or exaggerated, we correct it. Generally speaking, info comes from manufacturers’ websites, catalogs and/or owners’ manuals. These are frequently riddled with so many errors that all three of them can have totally different specs, velocities and info about a product. Also, they often lack full disclosure, and we usually don’t find out things until after the fact.

However, Pyramyd AIR has a secret weapon: their employees. Customers who made purchases based on employee recommendations usually write glowing reviews about them and the employees who made the recommendations. We couldn’t get more positive reviews if we paid people to write them! On top of that, Rick Eutsler (one of the people who mans the live chat) has a virtual fan club of people who love the guns, accessories and ammo he recommends.

If you call or write Pyramyd AIR and aren’t sure what you want and ask for recommendations for the best gun, accessory or ammo for your needs, the sales staff and Rick will guide you to products known to perform well and please you. Instead of bashing the bad, they talk up the good. Compare that to your local big box store, where most of the employees don’t have even rudimentary knowledge of airguns.

At some point, the manufacturers notice that some items sell and others linger on the shelves. Not patronizing manufacturers who make bad products or unsupportable claims is the best way to make them do the right thing (or they’ll go out of business).

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.
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160 thoughts on “How do you tell them the truth?”

  1. The trigger example may not be the best choice.

    After all, the trigger may be capable of that nice, crisp, two-stage release — but importers and/or liability lawyers have required that it be set to the worst possible configuration: the long creepy high pressure condition.

    As with the RWS Diana m54 I own… I couldn’t even feel a two stage release! Only after my last range sequence with a new scope did I decide to try working the trigger adjustments. I started by cutting about 1/8″ from under the 1st stage screw (I’d seen that modification of the T01 on a web page). Turns out that wasn’t needed for my taste — the 2nd stage screw was so far in that the entire pull was on 2nd stage only.

    I still want to work on it — with a firing backstop so I can avoid accidental dry-fires; but I have gotten to a distinct two stage pull. I don’t mind the long first stage (I set the 1st stage screw to /just/ touch the sear when cocked, taking out the trigger-spring-only false stage; I want to see if I can take out a bit more of the 2nd stage — the pull weight difference in the two screws is obvious, so if the second stage can be taken to the edge of firing, I think I’ll be happy).

    Then comes the Gamo NRA-1000 — even with the factory setting of the GRT-III trigger, I don’t feel two stages… Time to work it out…

  2. B.B.,
    As you noted, most sales clerks don’t have a clue about the products that they sell, and most aren’t comfortable making recommendations (because they can’t). They are so far from being at the level where they can even begin to talk about details such as trigger stages, or cocking weight, let alone how to shoot them correctly. So it’s up to the manufacturers to provide products that aren’t worse-case, but mostly up to the consumer to have a clue.

    But where does the consumer go for a basic understanding? I suggested something a couple of blogs ago. I recommended that a small booklet be written with basic useful information, and wondered what our readers would want in such a booklet. This booklet would be something that sales clerks could point customers to. It would be for sale, but also something that the clerk could rely on for basic answers.
    Victor

    • Excellent idea, Victor! Maybe a chart kind of like the chart Crosman has for taking various animals. It could have velocity and fpe in place of the models. A big warning to expect only 80% of the advertised velocity from any given gun’s claim. Appropriate recommendations for usage, etc. Then hang the chart in a conspicuous place with the airguns for all showers to see.

      /Dave

    • Victor,

      Now, this is what I am looking for! Yes, manufacturers should be putting out more technical information with their products, and that should force them to make sure that it’s correct. As for the pamphlets, Edith and I are working on them right now.

      Thanks,

      B.B.

      • They have to put more technical details but people have to know what it means, they have to understand those tech details. If he doesn’t understand half of the facts that are stated by the manufacturer like the cocking effort needed or the trigger force needed, after all like you said he can lift 50lbs so why shouldn’t he be able to cock a rifle that needs it to be cocked and a 8lbs trigger… he’ll assume he can do it easily so he’ll look at the velocity.
        1000fps, 50lbs needed to cock, 8lbs trigger, it can easily be managed so why should he choose something that has less velocity? So what if it’s easier to cock and has a lighter trigger…
        If a Corvette is only 5k more than a Camaro who will buy the Camaro? Who cares if it’s more comfy, has more leg room, can be used in the winter if there’s not too much snow and two more “seats”… until you try it and acutally sit in the thing you realise that there is no way you could go on vacation and fit all your luggage in the back of the ‘vette and that you can’t lift yourself out of the ‘vette because it’s too low.

        J-F

      • My other two hobbies are firearms and mountain bikes.
        I am going to say a manufacturer’s claims should be accurate or they ought to get a black eye from them. In firearms, if something has problems it is well known all over the web and the product will often end up recalled or the company behind it takes a major hit. In bikes while each gram lost on a higher end bike works out to a buck higher price the manufacturers often won’t state a weight for an assembled bike because they know any little change is going to cause backlash.

        It seems to me that while there are a lot of folks serious about airguns there are still a lot more who aren’t serious enough about their money to be ticked off when they are lied to. IF a manufacturer is going to make a claim about velocity it should include the ammo weight, diameter, whether the gun was broken in or what and it should at least be close to what a customer gets out of a similar production gun with the same ammo. Anything else is a flat out lie and if you can’t trust their marketing claims you can’t trust anything else about them including whether the airgun is going to work 90 days after you bought it.

        I’ve seen the corrections or amendments made by Pyramyd AIR to manufacturer’s claims. I read reviews at several vendors and checked out Youtube before making a purchase. I’m reasonably satisfied with my first airgun purchase as an adult but I’m very much less than happy with the industry practice of claiming a single high velocity for an unspecified lead or non-lead pellet when the weight of the pellet varies by 50% and even the lightest pellets of that type won’t meet the manufacturer claims.

        I am glad to see some industry reaction to some of the reviews and vids. Umarex for example pulling the safety card out of the seal area so that the seal isn’t damaged by it and tying it to the rifle with twine instead for example is a big improvement. I’d like to see some accuracy filter into the solid numbers listed in marketing claims.

  3. G’day BB
    I remember to cock a heavy crossbow there was a long lever that attaches to the front and a shorter lever that toggles and attaches to the string.
    When you pushed the long lever down it would push the string backwards to the trigger mechanism.
    I am sure PCPs would not be as popular if Scuba tanks were not available. If a salesman says the hand pump is a breeze to pump up a PCP as I was told, he speaks with fork tongue.
    Cheers Bob

  4. B.B.

    This might have been a good weekend topic. We could spend the whole weekend ragging on EVERYBODY.

    If one manufacturer told the full truth about just one model they make then they would go out of business. If they ALL told the truth, then they would ALL go out of business.

    Cars are a different story. Even if they all told the truth, they could still sell, except for the worst models. You HAVE to have transportation. You will HAVE TO buy sooner or later. You will HAVE TO settle for junk. They will stay in business as long as they all stay at a similar junk level.

    So even if you fully know about limitations and problems, there is a certain level of crappiness that you are willing to put up with when you really want or need something. The manufacturers know it too.

    twotalon

    • TT,

      I agree with you to a point. But if everybody made crappy cars, someone would recognize the huge opportunity and use it to surge ahead, the way the Japanese companies did to the bloated and self-assured American car companies. It doesn’t happen overnight, but in ten years the tide has turned and there is no going back.

      B.B.

    • That’s why they let you sit in the car first and then you take it for a test drive and you have mags rack full of automotive testers who tell you which one to buy.
      But you still have those ads not telling the whole truth “you need place for 7 passengers get this new wondermobile” but they don’t mention that once everyone is seated you don’t have enough place left for your groceries. It’s great for half a soccer team unless you need a ball to play because there’s no place left to put inside the wondermobile.

      J-F

      • 7 passengers….as long as they are midgets.

        I drive a minivan because it is practical….I can fold down the back seats or take them clear out if I want to. Lots of room if I need it.
        I almost always have one of my shooting benches, a target stand, a bunch of sand bags, targets, bug juice, small tool box with shooting necessities that I hope that I won’t need, and a bunch of other stuff. Still have room for a lot of food and beer. Maybe I should have just said food….beer is food. Should not be redundant like that.

        twotalon

  5. Not having large sums of discretionary funds, I took a long time to buy my first air gun after a LOT of digging around, so I managed to avoid most of the marketeers’ hype. I also am close to the unbelievers’ end of the spectrum. This is why I have so enjoyed this blog. Here is a place that you can get real information, not the sales hype.

    This is also why I patronize PA whenever possible. Their staff are experienced with their products and grasp the fact that if the customer likes what you sell him/her, they will likely be back. Most forget that part of selling a product is selling yourself. They also provide customer reviews, and not just the glowing ones.

    I will never forget the day when our daughter was five years old. She had just seen a commercial on TV about a doll. She looked at us and informed us that they make things seem better than they really are. I was so proud! Here was a child who was more perceptive than most adults!

  6. A little info…

    Got some tins of JSB RS (.177) a few days ago. The ones in the newer different color tins. They fit a bit tighter than the older ones that I have. The older ones were close enough that I watched really close to make sure they did not fall back out when closing up my R7s. Never had any quite loose enough to do it, but it was just so close. The newer ones are snug enough that it will not be a problem.

    Also got a tin of the H&N 4.51 FTT. A bit tighter than the 4.50, but not a problem loading them. The power plant in the R9 likes them. Should shoot good.

    twotalon

      • Kevin…

        The RS are R7 food. I was down to two tins left, and bought four new that have the new paint jobs.
        The FTT are R9 food.
        Will be trying both but not in the same rifle type. No chrono check on the RS yet. Just tried a few for fit.
        The FTT ran 885 fps with the chrono (ten shots, R9). 8.35 fps spread. SD 2.0. That’s about the same as the 4.50 FTT. Maybe just a bit better.

        Need another good day again. At least they were not seriously wrong in size. Had that happen before.
        First thing I do when I get new pellets is check to see if they fit right, and don’t look all banged up.

        twotalon

      • Almost forgot…
        The FTT are also for the 97K. It’s just an experiment with the new 4.51 to see if they are about the same with both rifles or if they show an edge. Both have been working fine with the 4.50. They might be a bit tight with the 97K, but I will see.

        twotalon

  7. B.B.

    That crossbow…

    I had a 150 lb one a long time ago. I could really feel my back giving me a warning a few times. You need to be pretty strong to cock and uncock them.

    twotalon

  8. BB,
    For many products today, the truth is available on the internet on numerous different types of sites. I bought an external hard drive on sale recently to use for backup. At 50% off, It was an impulse purchase. Got home, read a bunch of reviews, and returned it to the store, unopened, the next day. Creative ad copy is to be expected, but I don’t think blatant dishonesty is the norm.
    How much good can you say about an $89 dollar airgun, but that is exactly the gun a lot of people want, and they probably don’t care about the flaws that would make most of your readers cringe. The resources are available for us to make informed decisions, but it does take some effort.
    Lloyd

    • Lloyd,

      I was told this weekend that the most expensive air guns cost as much as $250. This was at the LASSO big bore shoot, and the person telling me was holding a $450 Marauder when he spoke. It wasn’t his gun, of course.

      I worry about these people, because they are driving in the fog without their lights on.

      B.B.

    • Yes, I’ve found out that most internet commentary is more hilarious and interesting than the subject of the commentary and in the aggregate generally correct. It is a huge mystery why something like Wikipedia made up of the contributions from an unselected cross-section of people turns out to be so abundant and so accurate. This tends to make you think that the truth will out, and at a faster pace than the pre-internet days.

      Matt61

  9. I think one of the biggest culprits in salesman not knowing their product, is a large chain big box electronics store. They supposedly have the best buys (smile). Go in there and expect to be truthfully informed and you’ll be sadly disappointed. The sales people there are so out of touch with the products they sell, you’ll bring something home based on their recommendations and you’ll have the worst case of buyer’s remorse you can imagine.

    Now that’s not saying all the sales people are like that. There are some that really know their products. But they are pushed by management to perhaps sell one brand over the other. And they don’t hesitate to sell you a 60 dollar HDMI cable that you can buy over the internet for 4 dollars; and their is no difference in quality!

    It’s truly a case of buyer beware. And this goes right along with air guns. Research, research, and research some more! Read the customer reviews, read B.B.’s excellent blog here. Subscribe to some specific forums. Use google!

    Most guns I buy are based on recommendations. I’ve only been disappointed one time based on a recommendation. My HW50 was that gun…. it did not live up to the hype and expectation… but that’s another story.

    • chasblock,

      Very interested in your experiences with the HW50. Was this a newer model HW50 (same gun as the R6/HW99) or an older HW50 (same powerplant as the R8)?

      What was the hype it didn’t live up to?

      kevin

      • kevin, It’s the newer version and it’s the sporter. I find it twangy, and unpredictable. Accuracy, even at 50 feet is probably inch and a half ctc, and I’ve tried Crosman (various flavors), H&N, JSB, Gamo and even a sampler pack I got from one of PA’s distributors/competitors.

        I really want to like the gun but it just doesn’t shoot that well. Heck, even my cheap Vantage and G1 shoot better than this. People keep telling me to put more pellets down the barrel, it’ll settle down after you get to 1,000. Wait? what? A thousand pellets *before* it settles down?

        I may at some point get it tuned and pray for the best.

          • B.B., I really appreciate the offer….and I’d love to do that… but you’re speaking with a guy that gets nervous swabbing out a barrel! To go deep into the innards of an AG would have me soiling my trousers! Though I am “handy”, i’m comfortable around fixing stuff around the house, I’m not sure I’d be up for it. Though I have to admit… what a learning experience it would be!

                  • Chasblock,

                    if you don’t or can’t accept BB’s offer, may I make a counteroffer? BB, I have a FWB 124 with a possible bent barrel. I could easily bring that to Roanoke if you, Mac and Tom the Seal decide we can make this a project for bending the barrel back down. We could use Tom’s bald pate for a fulcrum. I’m sure he wouldn’t mind or feel anything. I’m also very sure he doesn’t read this blog 🙂

                    Otherwise, I’ll be getting to that next month, I hope.

                    Fred DPRoNJ

            • chasblock,
              I’m really sorry to hear about your experience with your HW50.
              When I first got mine all I had to compare it to was my old BAM B3,so the new HW99/50’s shooting characteristics were bound to be an improvement.
              Recently though my son in law got a new HW99/50 so I was able to do a direct comaprison between his and mine,which I’ve shot over 1000 pellets through.
              Without doubt mine had smoothed out by a fair margin but even so my son in laws HW was still grouping,certainly under one and a half inches.
              We are shooting JSB exact jumbo’s in .22 calibre by the way.
              Slinging Lead also has a HW50/99 which he is pleased with.I’m not sure if his is in .177 though.
              All the best and don’t give up.
              DaveUK

              • You guys are gonna make me want one just to see what I can do with it.
                That’s a lot of money for a rifle I don’t need when I could spend it on beer, pellets, or both. I could use three new scopes too.

                twotalon

        • chasblock,

          I’m going to tell you a funny/strange story about a new HW50S.

          I don’t own a new model HW50S. My shooting buddy, Erik the Viking, bought one new, hasn’t tuned it and still has it.

          I adjusted his trigger and put a finish on his stock right after he got the gun about a year ago. When I was done I must have shot 20 different kinds of pellets at 25 yards. Very hold sensitive gun. The only pellet I could get to group out of that gun were the 7.9gr crosman premiers that come in a cardboard box. We’ve shot a lot of those 7.9gr crosman premiers through that HW50S since then.

          A week or so ago he brought that gun over among others and we shot for awhile. That HW50S was slinging pellets everwhere in both our hands. All the screws were snug. We decided it was time to clean the barrel with JB Bore paste and a brass brush. Went back out to the shooting benches and put another hundred or so pellets down the bore. No improvement. None. 3″ groups at 30 yards.

          Starting shooting other pellets. We both finally got half to three quarter inch ten shot groups using the air arms diabolo field pellets 8.4gr, 4.52 heads.

          Figure that one out my airgunning friend.

          kevin

        • chasblock,

          The “twangy” powerplant must span through several models. I recently purchased a new HW95 from PA and mine has the same problem. Every other aspect was up to my standards for what I spent on it though. Especially accuracy and being non-pellet finicky. On good days I can do 1/2″ ten shot groups at 30 yards with at least five different pellet brands / weights and that is MY limit in being able to hold it on target. Pretty sure the gun can outshoot me. Hope you can get the kinks straightened out on your HW50.

          David H

  10. RE: How do you tell them the truth?

    (1) Manufacturers and advertisers shouldn’t be able to make claims that are misleading and/or untruthful. The real truth is that the truth in advertising laws are so loose so as to be virtually useless for airguns.

    I think PA could do slightly better in detailing what information is as supplied by dealer and what is being supplied by PA. For instance with pellet velocities or weights. Wild velocity claims of a 3 grain plastic pellet that has high muzzle velocity but won’t travel 10 yards is a pretty useless pellet for testing. It does give blazing speed numbers. (I often wondered how many of the 0-60 numbers for cars were obtained by pushing car off a cliff and measuring the acceleration of gravity…)

    I know Edith tries to correct bad vendor info which is certainly value-add.

    (2) Now who is the “you” and what medium is being used to transfer information?

    PA has several blogs, articles, audio and video evaluations for spreading information via the web. I really think that Tom’s blog does a great deal in helping educate customers.

    PA could do more. For instance publish average numbers of 10 for 10 test after say 20 guns have been tested. PA could do some testing to show trigger pull weight at various distances along pull length to quantify adjustability. They could do some testing of pellets for group size or some such measurement at say 10 and 25 yards.

    At shows PA could get 4-5 different trigger groups that rate from poor to great and mount them in some sort of fixture. The idea would be to have a gismo to take to a show where various triggers could be tested. No barrels so nothing could be shot. Until you first feel a good trigger it is impossible to really explain what a good trigger is.

    (3) What is the purpose of the truthful information?

    One purpose could be to try to induce folks to buy a really “good” started airgun rather than 3-6 clunkers we all buy to get our initial education. Let’s face it most of us got educated by making bad decisions.

    One of the really nifty features of Tom’s blog is pointing out problems. If sights are no good, or rifle is very hold sensitive, or if barrel just seems no good for any pellet.

    It is a real question if the overhead of such an education program would really reap a business benefit to PA. Customers would have to realize that by buying from PA they are not just buying price. They are also buying high quality retail and dealer customer service. Otherwise PA could pay for education, then have customer order from another vendor for a $5 “savings” on a $500 rifle.

    eg – The best rifle that I have is a 0.22 RWS-34. For all the junky rifles that I purchased to get my education, I could have bought a good $400 springer. and a couple of $200 scopes. My limited used doesn’t justify a good PCP, and the multi-pumps in the $100 range ( eg Daisy SG-22) don’t really have the power I need.

    (4) Of course various shooting clubs/groups could do a lot to help sales. They have 15-20 rifles at a range that a customer could actually try. The club then gets 5-10% of sale, and PA gets new customer for targets, pellets, accessories and future airguns.

    So this is really a very open question! 🙂

    Regards,
    Herb

    • Herb,

      I can address item (2).

      Are you willing to pay more for each gun…good, bad or ugly…to support the extra work required for recording all the 10-for-$10 tests on a spreadsheet and test different pellets for group size for 10 and 25 yards? This is a massive undertaking. And here’s the kicker. No matter how much you test, manufacturers often make small but significant changes in their products.

      So, if a gun you tested 3 months ago is changed by the mfr so that just about all the earlier test results are no longer valid, then you have to start all over again. Manufacturers make these changes, but we don’t know the changes have happened. In other words, we often find out there’s been a change when a customer calls us and tells us about it. They either write or call to say we’re understating something, overstating something, misstating something or are completely off the wall on our descriptions. Some products have changed so much that we actually discontinue the product on the current product page and create a new product page. That’s done to prevent individual customers and dealers from buying something based on the manufacturer’s item code (which usually doesn’t change even when the product morphs considerably) because they won’t get what they think they’re getting…they’re getting a completely reworked product.

      Reference item (1): More and more manufacturers are supplying velocity figures with both alloy pellets and lead pellets. They don’t supply the pellet weights, but this is a step in the right direction. However, I agree with you 100% that truth in advertising is just about non-existent in airguns. There are some companies that are always truthful…and they generally sell only pricier guns.

      So, why do they exaggerate velocities? Because they get away with. While this blog and other chat places can report accurate velocities, how many people just walking into a big box store will do their due diligence and research the guns before making a purchase? Virtually none. They go to the big box stores looking for a gun. They find it, take it at it’s word and believe the velocity stated on the box.

      Years ago, I used to work at another mail order company that sold, among other things, some inexpensive airsoft guns. The tech person in charge of determining velocities for these told me he could “hear” if a gun was shooting a certain velocity. I told him that I seriously doubt he could detect a difference between 180 fps and 205 fps. He was offended by my statement and insisted he was able to make this determination. So, while Pyramyd AIR may not test guns, other retailers who do test guns are no more believable. And don’t think this is limited to airsoft. I’ve talked to guys who say they can determine a pellet’s speed by viewing it through their scope as it travels down range. Yeah…like you can tell if it’s going 800 fps or 900 fps.

      Edith

      • Edith,

        Nothing but praise for both you and Tom. Unfortunately you’re both only able to illuminate a small portion of the vast amount of misinformation floating around.

        The point about the 10 for $10 test is that some folks do pay for it. I didn’t and wouldn’t pay for it because it doesn’t tell me anything since I have a chrony. Without knowing what velocities the other rifles got, there is no way for me to know if my RWS-34 was within the normal range. Of course 10 shots isn’t enough to “break-in” a springer either.

        I certainly think PA does an outstanding job now. Could they do more yes. The technology is available. However I don’t think that a large “consumer reports” type project would be a viable business endeavor. As you point out it would be a large expense for little return.

        Regards,
        Herb

  11. I’m a fan of Crosman products and I think that their customer service is top-notch. I own a couple of 2240s, a .177 NPSS (original Crosman brand) and most recently I succumbed and picked up an M4-177. According to Crosman, the M4-177 shoots a 7.9g pellet “up to” 625 fps. I loaded my rifle with 8.18g H&N sport wad-cutters and started shooting. After getting sighted in at close range in my basement, I became curious about the rifle’s velocity. After all, the M4-177 is my first experience with a pumper, and I wanted to see what she would do on 5 v s 10 pumps. I was shocked to find that the rifle was shooting consistently in the low 500 fps range, even after proper oiling. I didn’t expect 625, but I thought that 500 fps was kind of low.

    After checking with Crosman, they told me that their QC passes any M4-177 that shoots 500 fps or above. Crosman’s product advertising created a performance expectation based on pellet weight that the product couldn’t meet. Perhaps one rifle shot a pellet at the advertised velocity, but I doubt it could be reliably duplicated.

    While I like the rifle and am not deterred by its actual performance, I feel that the related advertising is a lot of puffery. Use of the phrase “up to” in airgun advertising is similar to Hollywood’s use of the phrase “based upon” to convince viewers that fiction is reality. It sounds good, isn’t illegal, but the impression left behind is often misleading.

    • Eric,

      I think you hit the nail on the head here. The real problem is the active deception, rather than the unintentional omission.

      Let’s face facts – many of the people that work in various companies are not serious users of the products. They simply don’t understand as much about the product – and what matters about the product – as many of their customers.

      I am willing to forgive companies that simply omit some information because the don’t know any better, but the ones that spend time and energy figuring out how to “spin” as story really tick me off – those are the ones that simply will not ever get my business again.

      Sadly, in the world of springers and multipumps, every company seems to intentionally mislead on velocity and power, with the possible exception of RWS. The interesting thing is that those same companies don’t play that game (at least to the same extent) with PCPs. Why is that? They clearly know that they are doing it . . .

        • True. But the point is that they know “how to tell the truth” but choose not to unless they are selling a PCP. Why? I hope it not “just because everyone else does it.”

          I find it hard to believe (or is that hard to stomach) that the answer is simply that they decide not to lie to customers that are more likely to be able to detect a lie. That is one sad set of ethics . . . .

          It sure would be easy to keep the competitive practice of having “up to” claims on the box in big font, but also include a brief statement on the facts around springers and energy, stating it applies to ALL makes and models (which is true), and then build loyalty out of customers that read the box and notice the truth on one brand but not on the other.

          Alan in MI

  12. Regarding consumer behavior, I don’t believe persons who spend time on B.B.’s blog to read, learn and contribute are average. Customers are not a homogeneous group although there is a sizable minority that practices discontent as a lifestyle. I believe PA has done something remarkable thus far. Many, many customers do not want to do any research. They want to receive invaluable consultation for free. But it isn’t free. PA is apparently maintaining a balance. That sizable minority of customers seems to expect that the manufacturer/seller should “lose money on every sell but make it up on the volume”.
    There is an interaction between manufacturing, distribution, sales (sellers and customers, not to mention government) that conspires to keep us from utopia.

    On a lighter note, Jim Chapman of americanairgunhunter.com has chosen to make the second edition of Practical Guide to Airgun Hunting available as a “free” download. It comes in two PDF files, the first file being about guns and gear. I don’t know if Jim was at LASSO but he did post a special notice on his site. I expect he and B.B. may have bumped into each other at some point.

    Edith, I hesitate to post information about Jim’s book as I am in no way attempting to usurp B.B.’d blog. After some thought, I think it best to leave this to your discretion.

    Ken

    • Ken,
      I agree wholeheartedly with every thing you said in your first 2 paragraphs, especially about the minority that practices discontent as a lifestyle. It is pretty easy to spot them in the reviews. It would be nice if every airgun we bought, and all the data reported was perfect, but it’s not going to be. The tools to do the research are at our fingertips.
      Lloyd

    • I downloaded the .pdf files. Jim is an excellent writer, and these books are superb. Thanks to him for this generosity. He wants to promote the hobby, not make a profit.

      • Matt61, displacing B.B. is unlikely (and I think you were tongue in cheek about that). For me, it others may supplement but are unlikely to displace or replace. There is a reason why I spend more of my limited time and cognitive resources here on B.B.’s blog. Since last September I have connected to many blogs, video blogs, articles, catalogs, ad infinitum. This has been virtually free to me, but I never think it is free.

        Whatever B.B. or Jim Chapman or another may offer us that is of value is the result of an expenditure of thought, time, and action (all organized and coordinated in a cohesive, coherent way). There are some who may have great understanding of a subject but not be able to communicate that knowledge meaningfully. We may encounter some who are novices and may become the experts later about their subject and its presentation. Others are just sophomoric in their presentation and may remain so indefinitely; I find it difficult to read, listen or watch some of them even when I deem the information to be worthwhile.

        The language of much advertising on television leads me to believe we devolving rather than evolving, at least in the U.S. The pendulum swings, I suppose…

        Ken

  13. Hi, I am back and would like to comment on manufacturers being “less than honest” about their products.

    First, from my experience, most aren’t just “less than honest”, but are down right liars. Take advertised velocities. They almost always are over stated or shot with pellets no sane air gunner would use. Triggers are another area of dishonesty. I can’t begin to tell you how many times I got an air gun advertised with the catch phrase “two stage adjustable trigger” when it was neither. How about “light crisp trigger pull”, when the gun has a 10 lb trigger pull and the creep lasts well into the next century?

    The thing that makes me really sad, though, is the air gun owners who do reviews. A lot either don’t have a clue about air guns, or simply embellish and exaggerate their gun.

    The seller of an Air Force gun I bought recently said “extremely accurate”. When later told the gun would not bench good groups at all and I asked what type of “extreme accuracy” he was talking about, his reply? “Well I never benched the gun. I don’t bench any of my guns. But I can hit soda cans off hand at 15 yards most of the time, and hedge apples at 75 yards off hand about half the time.” “If I can do that, I consider a gun to be extremely accurate.” WTF? Man, shame on me for not asking him before the sale.

    Case in point is the Air Force Talon/Condor. I read all kinds of glowing reviews about this gun. So when a real “bargain” popped up on the web, I jumped on it based on all the reviews. The gun was a Talon SS with two tanks, a 12″ .177 LW barrel, a “18 inch .20 LW barrel” which actually is only 17″ end to end with about a 1/2 inch recess to protect the crown, the SS end cap and an additional shroud extension to completely cover the longer barrel. Nicely done and does more than just cosmetically cover the barrel. It came with an Air Force pump, which is far more impressive to me than the gun, a nice brand new stainless 6000 psi hose for the pump with a Foster QD fitting, the original fill device which attaches directly to the pump, and another with a male Foster QD fitting. Also a real nice bright clear 8 X 32 X 50 AO Bsa scope with rings, a nice B Square scope level, one wok butt and an awesome soft case which holds every thing but the pump. The case has five “magazine pouch” type storage on half of the case outside which would hold any large 30 – 50 round “assault rifle” type magazine each and a large zipper pocket which will hold both bottles or one bottle with the wok butt, and a CO2 adapter and bottle. All this and about 250 total Kodiak, Crow Magnum and Predator pellets and probably a few other things I forgot. All for only $781.

    Surely a great bargain? Only if you forgot to goggle the Internet for “Air Force rifle problems.” Which I did forget to do!

    When the gun arrived I was sorely disappointed. Cosmetically the gun was 100% as described. Nothing wrong there. But all the good stuff ends there.

    Where do I start? Ah the safety! A worthless POS more poorly made than those on most Chinese bottom feeders. The trigger? Extremely cheaply done and needs a lot of work. Again, poorer than some found on Chinese bottom feeders. The gun itself, very often described as “quality made” in owners reviews? The basic premise of the Air Force gun is brilliant. The execution and manufacturing is a crime. The forearm? A cheaply made, much too small POS. The “grip”? Absolutely the cheapest and most useless POS I have ever witnessed on an air gun. The tanks? A nightmare to adjust for any type of performance. The scope mounting rail? Way to flimsy for my taste. The vaunted “long range” accuracy? Non existent!

    In the manufacturer’s defense, one of the previous two owners adjusted both top hats to greater than .11″ gap. A gap far too great I discover from belated research. So I was extremely disappointed as I started “accuracy” testing. Long story short? There was no accuracy.

    So about a week later with the purchase of a nice feeler gauge and a lot of experimentation, a lot of forum research and the use of my chrony which is a MUST for air gun shooting I discover both tanks want a gap of .080″ to shoot best, but the older looking of the two tanks just won’t group. The newer tank will now do one hole at 10 meters. Previously it only would do .6″ – .8″ ctc for the best groups. Now about 10% of the groups go in .050″ ctc, another 20% at less than .10″ ctc, and the rest all under .25″ ctc. That is with the .20 barrel and the Kodiak’s, rested 5 shot groups inside at 10 meters. Crow magnums won’t group reliably, and I have not tried the predators, nor the .177 barrel since I adjusted the gaps and switched to the newer looking bottle.

    So I now after a week of long testing sessions over my chrony I have one barrel shooting satisfactorily. I am extremely afraid to change barrels as I fear the change would then result in me completely messing up my settings on the .20 barrel when I want to reinstall it.

    Also, I have one tank which appears to be defective. At least it will not give me any decent groups at any gap I tried so far, and I went from .060″ to 090″ in .005″ increments except around .080″ I did .001″ above and below that from .075″ to .085″. No setting grouped well, some though better than others.

    Oh, and did I mention that the advertised velocities are way dishonest. I did manage to force out 900 fps with Kodiak’s, but only by forcing the power wheel all the way to 12. That is a setting I certainly don’t want to use. I feel continued use of that setting would rapidly damage the spring. Velocities for the .177 12″ barrel were all way below the advertised range by about 200 fps.

    So why in blue blazes do people tout this gun so highly in PA reviews? BTW, I did a scathing review of the gun and PA did not publish it! So maybe many of the bad reviews get trashed. Because if PA or any seller published near what I have found on forums about this gun, they would sell very few!

    I totally agree with what Lloyd says. Right on brother! IF I had done due diligent research on this gun before the purchase on any but PA site and other sellers like AoA, Cobra airguns and the like, I would never, ever have bought this gun. People, just do not read gun reviews on sellers sites. If you want the real truth, goggle the gun on the net and read the comments on the forums.

    Folks, am I just stupid or gullible? Is it just me that has this kind of bad luck? This is the second gun I have bought within the last two months which is highly touted but very disappointing to me.

    Maybe all is not lost though. I can get decent groups with the .20 barrel now and it is the one I primarily bought the gun for. And even at say 800 fps with Kodiak’s I would feel comfortable about the ability to dispatch small game. At least tree rats, rabbits, pest birds like starlings and grackles, and the like. Should I just be happy with the .20 setup and part all the extra stuff out to recover some of my money? Will Air Force fix the defective tank so I could sell or trade it? The .177 barrel would have to have some value. The Bsa scope is excellent, but way to big for my tastes. I mounted a 3 X 9 X 40 AO Talon scope (Sun Optics) on it and like that better, especially for 10 meter shooting. So the Bsa is expendable. The pump is excellent and should sell for something in the range of??

    Ground hogs, possums and raccoons? You guys tell me? Will a 800 fps 13.27 grain .20 pellet put this size game down reliably? If so, what about coyotes?

    I had heard so much about the .20 caliber and how wonderful it is. So far I am under impressed. I can shoot heavier pellets in .177 than all but the Eun Jin .20 caliber. And my power with the .177 gun is adjustable from about 6 fpe to over 32 fpe! And it has favorite pellets it does well with at any power setting.

    I already have two great, accurate pcp’s, one in .177 and the other is .22. Both are repeaters, and cost me less than half what the AF setup did. So far both have been really easy to get to group great and very reliable. The Disco will also shoot CO2 for cheap indoor practice, and no special tanks or such is required beyond my bulk fill setup which I had long before the Disco.

    Should I just sell the whole setup, or part it out piece by piece, or keep the .20 setup? Frankly, I did not need this gun. I wanted to try a .20 caliber gun, and have always heard great things about the Talon so wanted also to try one. Retail I show I have around $1527 total for every thing I have. So I should be able to part it out for more than what I paid. Or sell it for slightly more than what I paid as a complete package.

    I had visions of being able in about 5 minutes to go from a .177 12″ barrel with CO2 for indoor practice to a 24″ .25 barrel with a Condor tank for a hammer I could use for the raccoon to coyote size game. Or any thing in between. Reality just doesn’t come close to my visions. Reality is more like a nightmare with extreme headaches!

    Folks, if you want a gun you can buy, take it straight from the box and get excellent results with no fuss or bother, do not buy an Air Force Talon/SS nor Condor. I repeat, do NOT buy an Air Force Talon/SS or Condor. It probably isn’t going to happen.

    If you are the type that loves to tinker and/or spend a great deal of time and/or more money setting up your gun to give the absolute best performance for what ever your need, then this may well be just the gun you are looking for! I am told if you send one to Tony at Talon Tunes and spend from about $200 – $400 or more he will send it back to you performing like an expensive Stradivarius.

    From my perspective, this gun is way over priced and under performing as is from the factory. Realistically, you need to replace the grip and forearm, buy some type of after market device to allow you to shoulder the gun more precisely, buy both a tri rail and extremely high scope mounts, fix or replace the crappy factory safety, and send it to Talon Tunes for a complete expensive tune or spend a lot of time tuning it your self. Oh, and the much touted “quietness” of the Talon SS? ROFLMAO! Again, you need to buy an after market device to achieve true quietness. The SS is only about half as quiet with the end cap as it is with out, and with out it roars.

    Dang! I hate it when a plan doesn’t come together!

    • new2 this,

      I don’t want to put a damper on your ability to express yourself, but I’d appreciate it if you’d avoid using the “colorful” acronyms used in your comment. I would normally delete such a comment, especially since you peppered your comment with so many of them. However, I’m going to allow it just this one time. I know you’re upset about the raw deals you got, but we want to maintain a G-rated site so parents and grandparents feel comfortable allowing their children to read here.

      Thanks,
      Edith

    • new2,
      I own a Talon SS .177 and I consider it very accurate at 10m. I couldn’t find in your comment what range you were shooting yours or what you considered bad or good groups or what pellet you shoot best with it. Are you able to quantify those for us? I am shooting 5 shot groups 1/4″ ctc with occasional same holers using Crosman Premiers 10.5gr in the cardboard box. Have you tried those?

      I know how good it feels to vent sometimes, but my guess on your rejected PA review is that you used POS too many times in it. Try resubmitting it without doing that and it might go through.
      -Chuck

      • new2,
        I just thought of another thing that might have kept your PA review off and that is you didn’t buy the Talon from PA. In all fairness they can’t be responsible for the condition of your gun if they didn’t sell it to you. There is no telling what the previous owner did to it before you got it. Judging by your comments about the seller I would be very suspicious that he might have done something detrimental to the gun.
        -Chuck

      • Also (and do chime in here Edith), when PA sees a review that is very negative on a gun that they know was not sold buy them (they know who we are when we post and buy things), they are going to be less likely to post it – to be fair, they know nothing about the gun you bought, if it was not sold by them . . . .

        It is not fair for people to think of PA’s reviews as an open space for complaining about merchandise that they did not sell, and thus did not have the chance to make right. PA’s customer service is top notch, and had your gun been bought from them, I believe that would have made it right for you, or agreed to refund your money with the return of the purchase.

        Alan in MI (one very happy PA customer)

      • Chuck,

        So far it has been tested only at 10 meters indoors. I generally do 5 shots rested. And I know if a gun won’t print pretty small groups at 10 meters indoors, it is not going to print good groups outdoors at much longer ranges.

      • Chuck,

        I shoot indoors. Range is 10 meters rested from a solid rest. Five shots per string. Accuracy per string averaged .5 – .6″ ctc for the AF gun with either barrel. Did not matter whether I used no end cap, the factory end cap or the after market end cap. Did not matter whether I used the .177 or the .20 barrel. Results on all were sub standard. The Sumatra averaged .05 – .15″ ctc, The Disco groups averaged about .05″ ctc bigger than the Sumatra.

        Resubmit the review with no POS? Did and done. Not posted. Censored! Why? “Gun not bought from PA”. Yet there are other reviews here where the gun was not bought from PA. Difference, those were not AF guns and were positive reviews. “Gun was “customized” and therefore it was automatically assumed to be abused.” This was/is not a customized gun nor does it show signs of being abused.

        So, until or unless some one shows me a stock factory talon or talon ss that does impress me, as far as I am concerned they are just a piece of (cow) pie!

        Disclaimers: This is my opinion and is based solely on one example of an Air Force Talon. The gun was used but appears to be essentially new. As received it had a 12″ .177 barrel and a 18″ .20 barrel. It had the factory end cap for the shorter barrel, but that would not work with the longer barrel, so one of the owners purchased a longer end cap that would. The gun had been “adjusted” by some one as the top hat gap was set at about .11 ” for both the tanks it had. In that trim it would not group at all. I read how to adjust the top hats back to where they should be and did that. With one tank the last group I shot was about .05 – .10 ” eyeballed, not measured. It was one hole VERY slightly bigger than the pellet. If that is repeatable that is acceptable accuracy, but not time yet to test it. That was the only group I got which was reasonable and came after I adjusted the newer looking of the two bottles top hat to .080″ and fired one five shot group.

        That said, there are obvious signs of lack of quality. The trigger, safety, grip and forearm are extremely shoddily built! The breech mechanism appears to be built of plastic or polymer. It fits extremely loosely in its tube, and is very wobbly till locked up with the top hat. The lock up itself is not secure and while carrying the gun it some times unlocks. The trigger does not appear to be easily worked on nor improved.

        When the gun is fired, the hammer travels toward the rear of the gun, slams into that plastic/poly breech piece and forces it against the valve, opening it and discharging the gun. So when the gun is fired, the hammer moves, the breech piece moves and the valve moves. A whole lot too much movement for my taste.

        The butt of the gun is a bottle. The size of the bottle interferes with some shooters (including me) ability to get a good cheek weld or align the eye with the scope. That is an inherent flaw to this type of gun design and may take a lot of after market parts to over come. In my case for sure it will. If you put a CO2 bottle on it, it is even fatter and interferes even more.

        • new2,
          I’m trying to find the same faults in my Talon SS that you find in yours. Realize my comments may be subjective and not based on as much experience as you have. The two complaints that stand out are the safety and the bottle. I do not like that as I do not like any auto safety. My safety is like a wire brad with a plastic cover slipped over it. The plastic cover fell off once but fortunately I was able to find it and put it back on. Without that plastic cover it would be more annoying. Does yours have the plastic cover on it? As far as the bottle goes, even though I don’t like the feel, I knew beforehand it was there and unusual, as I expect you did too based on the research you did do. Neither one of us should gripe about that because it was not a surprise. Yet, I too have complained, anyway.

          The grip does not bother me like it does you but I can see your point. The halves do not align squarely leaving a little edge. I have not tried to loosen the screws to realign them because it doesn’t bother me. Your hands are probably larger than mine because the forearm works OK for me. I see no quality issue with that, either.

          I don’t have a trigger gauge so can’t say much there. My trigger doesn’t take much pressure to fire and is crisp. I notice no creep and there is virtually no first stage. The only thing I could add is that I adjusted my trigger shoe down until it almost touches the trigger guard, and maybe that give me more leverage and needing less finger pressure. If your trigger shoe is all the way up I can see how that would make it hard to pull. I have no issue with the trigger guard itself. I see no lack of quality there.

          Funny about the breech mechanism, mine is loose, too, but I thought that was a plus because it’s so easy to cock and load and latch. But I don’t take mine out hiking. Even so, once it is locked I can shake and bang the rifle in any direction but I can’t get it to unlock. Even if it did come unlatched, the breech won’t come open because, upon close, it clicks into what feels like a detent that holds it close. I can move the lever left and right with no resistance but not forward. It takes significant pressure to move it forward. As far as not being made out of metal, well, I never noticed until you mentioned it. However, I see no wear or tear on it after about three years.

          You are correct about the CO2 bottle being larger. Not only that, CO2 doesn’t come with a shoulder bracket like the air bottle does. When I was shooting from CO2 I slipped a couple beer cozies over the tank to keep my face from freezing.

          I’m glad to hear about your great groups. I know it’s capable of your results, occasionally. You are a much better shot than I am. I don’t get that good very often. What pellet are you using to get the .05 and .1 groups. I hope you don’t think these are bad groups, because they aren’t. The way you worded your results I get the feeling you expect to see only one hole smaller than a pellet’s diameter 🙂 I don’t think the Talon SS is gonna do that regularly. Let me know if you ever get any rifle under $3,000 to do that regularly.

          I must admit my Talon SS, who I call Mr. T is taking a back seat to my Challenger now. It’s even more capable of your last group, more often, but I’m not seeing it yet.
          -Chuck

          • Chuck,

            When I pay over $500 for a gun, I EXPECT it to shoot one hole bench rested groups and if the are larger than .25″ ctc I am very disappointed. I AM entirely capable of shooting one hole groups RESTED at 10 meters which will be in the .05″ – .10″ range if the gun will.

            The safety? A very thin piece of wire hanging down with NO rubber covering. If I do a hundred to 200 shot session it creates a sore spot and a callus on my finger.

            I did know there was a bottle there, but my understanding was it was about 2″ in diameter and I really did not think that was going to be the problem it has turned out to be. I have a short neck and a “fat face” which further complicates the matter. With the highest rings I could find on it, I still need to get the scope up another 1.5 to 2″ and/or lower the bottle by that amount.

            I see someone is making an angled adapter which not only lowers the bottle some, it also has that much needed gauge AF did not put on the gun AND a male foster fitting to fill it without removing it from the gun! I believe it is in the $60 – $ 100 range but am not sure and also can not find it now. However I do not feel like throwing more money at this night mare to get it to work as I think it should for the amount of money they charge.

            I have better guns. Three of them! My highly customized Disco is awesome. It will on a real good day for me print 10 meter 5 shot rested groups of .05 – .10″, though on an average day for me they are more like .15 – .25″. Still at 25 yards I can occasionally do .25″ ctc and most always can cover the groups with a dime. At 50 yards with the really good pellets I consistently get less than 3/4″ which is well within minute of tree rat head! It seems to prefer domed pellets like the CPH and the RWS Domes. Also shoots the lighter JSB domed well. Also with this gun on tree rats I ALWAYS get 1 shot groups of .00″ ctc!

            For some reason my Sumatra carbine will easily out shoot the Disco. Both off hand and rested. Love that gun and my only wish is that it was in .25 or at least .22 caliber.

            Then I have a Titan GP with a GRT III trigger which shoots extremely well. It too is .22 cal.

            So, no, I do not expect groups smaller than the pellet, but do expect small ones at only 10 meters with the gun bench rested. Off hand I consider myself only an average shooter. After all I am old. I won’t say how old, but I am drawing SS and have been for quite a few years.

            In my young days I was a super shot. I regularly beat all the locals and most of the county shooters. Both with rifle and pistol. Never had much use for a shot gun. But when you get this old, your hands shake a little, your muscles are not as strong and your eye sight is not as sharp. Haven’t competed in years, but probably the only folks I can beat now might be old folks like me. Maybe.

            So even if I can get the Talon to shoot .25″ groups at 50 yards, it probably will be sold. To me it looks cheesy. And it is not the type of gun I like the handling. So most likely this will go down as a failed experiment and chalked off to experience. I just hope if I sell it I would not lose too much money.

    • new2this,

      After reading your comment carefully it became obvious to me that you have a used gun that someone has modified. The barrel crown is one giveaway.

      Believe me when I tell you that your experience is not typical of a new gun. But it is VERY typical of a gun that has been “customized.” And it is one reason why it was such a deal. These guys screw this gun up and them sell is cheap and look for something else to destroy.

      I used to build these guns at the AirForce factory, and I tested many of them. In three years I only found one gun out of of hundreds that would not shoot a quarter-inch group at 28 yards. They don’t have to test-fire each gun they make, but they do test every stage of the manufacturing process, I can assure you.

      I used to fix the guns that had been customized like yours, and I have seen every possible abuse that can be perpetrated on them.

      You know better than to dry-fire a .22 rimfire, right? You know what kind of damage it can do? Well, dry-firing a Talon SS without a tank attached can do the same thing, yet I caught someone doing just that at the LASSO shoot last Saturday with a gun that had a much heavier striker and a much more powerful striker spring. If he continues to dry-fire his gun it will break, just as a Colt Python crane will bend if you flip the cylinder shut.

      Because of your comment, I will soon do a report on the AirForce guns. I think it’s time to train a whole new batch of owners.

      Thanks for the heads-up!

      B.B.

      • BB,

        Yes it is used. I believe I stated that in my review. But I have bought many used guns that have been modified in various ways and still shot great.

        My comments about the quality are based on the way the gun is built and assembled and the obvious tip offs on the gun itself about Air Force’s attitude.

        The gun is designed and built strictly for ease of manufacture. It is so simple to make that “even a cave man could do it!” And the signs of lack of regard for quality are many in this gun.

        I mean, come on man. For a gun that retails for just shy of $540 you mean to tell me they could not have come up with some thing far better than that ugly, ill fitting, cheaply made useless thing they call a “grip”? The same goes for the fore arm. It is way too small, cheap and cheesy looking. Not very functional. And really, the thing they call a “trigger”? Cheaply made, has a lot of creep, and have not checked it on a gauge yet, but probably 5 – 7 pound pull. Even Disco triggers are a lot better than that and they cost just about half of the Air Force guns. And I can easily work on Disco triggers, something which is not easy to do on the Air Force. And that thing they call a safety is an insult to the buyer. Same goes for the “trigger guard”. The breech of the gun is the same. Cheap plastic which is loose and wobbly. At least till it locks up with the top hat. Then the only thing holding it is alignment with the barrel is an o-ring and the barrel itself.

        Even the design of the “breech bolt lock” or what ever you want to call that arrangement between the knob and the end of the tube which holds everything leaves a whole lot to be desired. Lock up is never secure, nor consistent from time to time. Some times it stays “locked”, other times not. The hammer has got to be the cheapest design I have seen on an air gun.

        BB, I understand you worked for Air Force and may be just a wee bit biased. But surely you can’t possibly be blind to these deficiencies? And none of these things have any thing to do with a user modifying the gun. Nor does the fact that the design of the gun with the bottle being the butt stock making it hard to obtain proper scope alignment and cheek weld. Simply put, the dang thing is just plain hard to shoulder and shoot. That is a concession Air Force choose to make to simplify and cheapen manufacture of these guns and forsake ease of use and potential accuracy.

        My big beef is that a whole lot of what AF does is to simplify and cheapen manufacturing cost at the expense of true quality, ease of consumer use, and accuracy of these guns. Why in heck should I pay $500 for a gun and then have to spend another $300 – $500 or more to get it to perform up to the standards a stock Korean or British or any of the REALLY good foreign made guns?

        Compare an Air Force Talon, Talon SS, or condor to say…….I know! Compare it to a $500 Korean gun. Something along the lines of say an Eun Jin Sumatra rifle or carbine? The way the AF guns are built, the fit, finish, and engineering of the gun, it is not even in the same ball park as the Sumatra. Heck not even in the same state, nor am I sure it is even in the same country!

        The Korean guns are really fine guns. The engineering, fit, finish, functionality and accuracy of those guns just blows the AF out of the water. And you, I, and any other reader out there who has handled and shot both guns knows that is true. But both guns cost about the same.

        And the only sign of “abuse” I can see on this gun is the large top hat gaps. And that is some thing easily fixed with a chronograph, good feeler gauges, and time and patience to test the gun for velocity and extreme spread of the shot strings. At my starting point of .060″ gap the gun shot extremely low velocities with an extreme spread of around 250 fps. I increased the gap .005″ at a time and watched the velocity rise and extreme spread decrease till at .080″ gap I got the highest velocity and lowest extreme spread (average of 21 fps es) of the shot strings. Beyond that, velocity decreased and extreme spread increased. I then tested the settings between .075″ – .085″ by changing it .001″ per string. I still got the best result at .080″ on both tanks, though one tanks gives far better groups than the other. That I do not have enough knowledge of Air Force guns to explain or trouble shoot.

        With the one tank my last group I shot was one hole 5 shot rested at 10 meters indoors. I did not have the calipers with me to measure it, but I would eye ball it at .05″ – .10″ ctc. It was shot with Beeman Heavy Kodiaks and the .20 caliber barrel. That was the only pellet I have a sufficient supply to do any extended testing right now. If that kind of group proves to now be consistent, I will make a 40 mile trip to the range and test it at longer ranges.

        So maybe the accuracy problems will be chalked up to previous user error or “abuse.” The gun is still difficult to shoulder and shoot. And over extended sessions the grip hurts my hand. And the safety causes sore spots and calluses. Those things we will chalk up to Air Force abuse of customers.

      • BB,

        Sorry, we disagree again. As well as I disagree with Desertdweller. I expect air guns to be reliable, and durable. If this gun showed signs of abuse I would not have reviewed it. My dissatisfaction with the gun is largely because of it’s design and short cuts Air Force makes to cut costs.

        First, it is easily “customized”, and that is just asking for abuse. The example of the Eun Jin vs the AF is valid here also. The Eun Jin is NOT easily customized, hence when you buy a used one, chances are very great nothing has been done to it.

        Second, it is cheaply and poorly made and that just begs for customers to try to “improve” it. The Korean guns need no improvement.

        Some one obviously thought that opening the valves up more gave higher velocity. They were wrong. Did that damage the gun in any way? Not that I can see. It just gave them lower velocities with a larger extreme spread and standard deviation.

        The gun looks pretty much to be new and not shot much. My guess? The first owner quickly opened the top hat up on the gun, could not get it to shoot well, and dumped it, not realizing he was the cause.

        The second owner bought it cheap, did not mess with it, could not get it to shoot well, and also dumped it. I bought it from the second owner. He told me he only had it a month. He said he only shot it about 50 shots and did not like it. He was honest, told me he did not like the way it shouldered and handled and did not want to keep it. I completely agree with him. Because of the tank being the butt of the gun, it doesn’t handle well. I find it extremely difficult to get the proper cheek weld with it and get good eye to scope alignment.

        The only “customization” I can see is the extension one of them ordered to be able to completely cover the longer barrel. If that is abuse, then any one who puts a muzzle brake on their gun is abusing it. Same function. For cosmetics. So it looks “cool”.

        Guns are kind of like some ones new born baby. It could be the ugliest, goofiest looking baby ever born, but it’s parents will still think it is the most beautiful thing ever born.

        Same goes for the Air Force guns. People either love em or hate em. There are plenty who do both. Just visit the forums or goggle “Air Force air gun problems” or similar phrases and you will discover tons of people who think they are a cheap low quality piece of pie!

        I don’t see that type of controversy with the Korean guns. In fact, every review I have read any where on the Eun Jin Sumatra have all been 5/5! I don’t see that type of controversy with FX or Daystate, or any of the finer made German, English or other foreign guns. Some are more expensive, some not. But by the time you sink the kind of money into Air Force guns to “tune” them (ie correct the factory deficiencies) you could have just had a better gun to begin with!

        Nuff said now. You will never convince me they are fine air guns. No amount of rationalization on your part the “some idiot messed it up” or what ever will change that. I don’t even care if you are convinced other wise. I and others like me know a fine gun when we see one. We also know a pigs ear when we see that.

        Can ANYONE of you out there HONESTLY stand and look me in the eye and say you truly believe any Air Force gun is on par with the finer inexpensive Korean made pcp’s or a fine FX or Daystate or Bsa or HW pcp? I am talking about quality. I am also talking about engineering, fit, finish, looks, and accuracy?

        ANYONE?

        • I own firearms, and also have over 30+ air rifles, all of which are safely tucked away in gun safes. The brands range from EunJin, Evanix, Diana/RWS, and Crosman/Benjamin. The most inexpensive gun in the group is a $200+ Benjamin Discovery, and it functions like a champ, and even prettier with a custom stock. Some guns I doubled up on buying like Diana/RWS 48 and 56TH, 2 Benjamin Marauders, etc.
          Oh, and I own an .22cal AirForce Condor that I bought new. The Condor is the only gun in my collection that I ever regret buying. I bought into the hype. Now I could sell it, but the thought of the loss in my original investment just doesn’t sit right with me, so I hold onto it as a reminder of “what not to do”.

        • new2this,

          The AirForce guns are superior to all the Korean guns. They last longer, are more accurate and handle air better than any Korean model you can name. I don’t say that because I used to work for AirForce, but because I have been testing all these guns since they first came out and that’s what the results have shown.

          B.B.

    • new2this,

      Your scathing review got declined by me. I read and approve/decline all gun reviews. If you trash a gun, we check to see if you bought it from Pyramyd AIR. If you did, we publish it as long as you don’t use colorful words/acronyms and don’t say things that are inaccurate (e.g., advocating buffalo hunting with a .177-cal. rifle) or dangerous (e.g., using pure oxygen to fill the air reservoir). If we can’t find that gun being purchased by you from Pyramyd AIR and you’ve written an overly negative review, then I will decline it.

      Likewise, if you bought the gun from Pyramyd AIR and the review is negative, you’ll get published…as long as you don’t berate the other reviewers for lying about their experiences in their own reviews. In other words, we want honest reviews about products you bought from Pyramyd AIR.

      Why would I approve a review for a bad gun that you bought from someone else? If I buy a car that’s a lemon, I don’t go to a car dealer that did NOT sell me the car and complain. You can denigrate a product all day long in a review on Pyramyd AIR, and I promise we’ll publish it if you bought the item from us.

      We do draw the line at cross-referencing, too. So, if you bought a gun from someone else but bought a scope from us and you write up a nice review of the scope and use that to write a vituperative review of the gun, we’ll decline your review.

      For the low-down on reviews, please reference the guest blog I wrote:

      /blog/2012/01/you-asked-for-it-pyramyd-air-customer-reviews-mages/

      Edith

      • Edith …

        I would like to take gentle exception to a comment that you made. It has to do with the value of comments made regarding an item being influenced by the place of purchase and the resulting editing of those comments.

        It is my feeling that the place where an item is purchased should and can not have an influence on criticism of the item itself. Criticism of the services provided by the seller? Sure. But, an evaluation of the performance of item? No. The item is what it is and deserves whatever criticism it gets without respect to where it was sold. Confusion sets in when individuals, whether sellers or buyers, don’t see clearly who is responsible for what.

        It is important to keep in mind that the warranty that follows an item from the manufacturer to the purchaser actually bypasses the seller. It is still the manufacturer who warrants what the item will do or not do and the seller becomes only the conduit through which that warranty is passed. In actuality, the manufacturer, in one way or another, compensates the seller, or maybe someone else, to carry out terms of the warranty that it has set down when warranty provisions are carried out on its behalf. So, to use your auto example, yes, a buyer who does not receive proper warranty service under the manufacturers warranty at the selling dealer SHOULD go to another dealer, and another dealer, and another dealer until he either gets the terms of the warranty fulfilled, or he has some other option to take in getting it fulfilled, such as consumer protection provisions or legal processes.

        At the same time, it must be keep in mind that the manufacturer’s customer is not the end purchaser. The manufacturers customer is the seller. When the manufacturer sells an item to a dealer, the transaction is over for him … except for terms of the warranty that are passed on through the seller or someone else, by the manufacturer. When the customer buys an item from a seller, his transaction is with the seller, not the manufacturer, with the exception of the warranty provisions that are passed on to him through the seller. So, manufacturers really have no legal place in the dealings of a seller who makes promises that he doesn’t keep. And, the seller has no legal place in the dealings of a manufacturer who makes promises that are not delivered under the warranty. And, it is paramount for purchases to be aware of who it is who is responsible for what and direct responsibility accordingly. As enthusiast consumers, we are often very quick to blame a manufacturer for shortcomings of the seller, and blame the seller for shortcomings of the manufacturer and the product. And, this is where editing of evaluations, instead of commenting on an evaluation, goes wrong.

        If a seller invites comments regarding an evaluation of a product, he is really doing a disservice to himself and the public if he edits comments and limits them to individuals who have done business with him. This approach results in “cherry picking” and implies a lack of objectivity similar to what is obtained in soliciting comments from employees, friends and family. They are seldom really objective. A seller however, ought to be able to limit comments to his own customers if he has invited comments regarding an evaluation of his service. However, he ought also to be responsible enough to not edit comments he has invited regarding an evaluation of his service if the respondent is his customer and the respondent feels that the service was negative or not up to expectations. As soon as the editing starts, it is next to impossible to avoid editing out criticism that the seller disagrees with. I feel that commenting instead of editing results in much better results.

        It might be worth considering a simple question requiring an answer from the customer prior to continuing on writing an evaluation or making comments. That could be, simply, “Are the following comments or evaluation meant to be directed to the product, as it was presented by the manufacturer, or the service, as was provided by (name the seller)? Check the appropriate box”. Now, anyone reading that comment or evaluation knows exactly how to take the material provided and, to my way of thinking, eliminates the need to edit any comments made regarding product functions and use or sellers relationship with customers.

        Editing for inappropriate language, off topic, etc., I think is warranted under all circumstances. And, a reply from the seller to service comments and product evaluation are appropriate whenever the seller feels it is necessary to avoid misunderstanding. The seller certainly is within his area of responsibility to point out errors, offer additional information,etc.

        NRS

        • NRS,

          If dealers never touched their air guns you might have a point, but the fact is, many small dealers are modifying these guns before they ship them. I could name names and if we ever meet, please ask me.

          Since PA can’t control what the other “dealers” do, they have to protect themselves.

          B.B.

        • NRS,

          First off, let me state that there would be serious repercussions if anyone altered a customer’s product review. This would never be tolerated. In the past, when we got only a few reviews a day and the load was light, I would have to decline a good review because a person may have typoed words that ended up being “colorful” (like misspelling the word “shot”). I would ask a Pyramyd AIR employee to contact the person and ask if I had their permission to correct the typo, otherwise I would have to decline the review. I no longer do that since there are too many reviews & I can barely keep up with just reading and approving/declining.

          Imagine this scenario (it’s not made up):

          This gun blew up on me. It sucks. Don’t buy it. It fell apart when I shot it the first time. I didn’t do anything wrong. It jams. It’s crap.

          Vary the wording a bit and apply that to 14 different guns. That’s what I face. And, for the record, 14 is not a number I pulled out of a hat. There’s a real guy who wrote 14 reviews about different guns blowing up. He did this over a period of about 6 months.

          There are people who have never bought anything from Pyramyd AIR — and I’m supposed to take their reviews at face value so I don’t look like I’m cherry-picking reviews? Of course I have to verify that they bought it from us…because, in more than one case, they’re writing bad reviews for whatever personal reasons they have…they’re our competitors, they’re disgruntled, they hate Pyramyd AIR, the voices in their head tell them what to write, etc.

          As far as the car example I made: If you got a lemon, you don’t complain to someone from whom you did NOT buy the car. You may get it fixed by someone other than the original retailer, but you wouldn’t go on the website of the retailer who did NOT sell you the car and complain vociferously about the crappy car you got. Well, at least I wouldn’t I do that.

          As far as asking people to check a box with the statement you provided, that’s probably not going to happen. At this point, we seem to have a problem with people reading the simple statements we already provide. We get some very angry emails because people demand reasons that their review wasn’t approved. Well, in the first place, they just posted it yesterday. It’s not magic. It states on the submission page you’ll be notified and that it can take 7 days before the review may be read. How do I know that people don’t read it? Because of their really nasty emails accusing us of censorship, violating their First Amendment rights and some idea that they have that we’re trying to prevent the truth about products from getting to the end user. The fact is that I just haven’t read it. Adding any more text to that page will result in people ignoring it. What’s funny is that these people often have very good reviews (and resubmitted it 9 times because it’s just not showing up the second they hit the SUBMIT button), and they think that for some reason it’s been declined due to some small bit they wrote about the gun not being perfect.

          And, while we’re at it, let me explain what a negative review is not: It is NOT that your gun has a crappy trigger. It is NOT that your gun is inaccurate. It is not that your gun has a bad finish. It is NOT that your gun has poor sights. It is NOT that your gun comes with a poor scope. It is NOT that our shipping was slow. It is NOT that your gun arrived damaged due to poor packaging. It is NOT that your gun twangs. It is NOT that your gun buzzes. It is NOT that you had to replace the trigger with a GRT III. It is NOT that the gun leaked on receipt. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

          Any one of the above will not get your review declined. But if you list a number of those things as being a problem, then I will check to see if you bought it from us.

          Lastly, I will not approve a review that is nothing more than a meltdown diatribe accusing a certain manufacturer of supporting the Chinese government by importing guns. Please, tell me useful things about the gun…don’t give me a political speech. You can say the gun was made in China…I have no problem with that. But I don’t want to read 2,900 words about your hate for the Chinese and only 100 words about the gun you’re supposed to be reviewing.

          I could go on, but my head is about to explode. I always give the reviewer the benefit of the doubt. What I won’t do is allow people who spend no money with Pyramyd AIR to come in and attack the products just because they bought something from someone else and it was a deal gone wrong.

          You know, when I go to J.C. Penneys and buy an appliance that turns out to be defective, I don’t go to the Sears site and badmouth it. Yet, you’re asking Pyramyd AIR to accept negative reviews about products bought from their competitors or through private parties who are not in the retail trade…and may have mishandled or altered the original product, thus causing the item to become defective.

          Edith

          • Edith,
            Personally, I APPRECIATE the filtering that you (and others ?) do to the reviews. Similar situation: I will occasionally start to read the open comments online on Fox Sports pertaining to a sports article I have interest in. Unfortunately, I can seldom make it thru more than a handful of comments because they are usually too much ego, and not enough (if any) substance. I imagine the review mailbag you plow thru is much like that.
            So please keep filtering. You know airguns and we trust you. PA is providing a valuable service with their customer reviews, and filtering out the chaff for us, is additional value added. I would rather read 3 reviews with substance, good or bad, rather weed thru 20 soapbox comments. People who never find a “good” airgun probably need to take a good look in the mirror.
            Just my 2 cents,
            Lloyd

          • Vary the wording a bit and apply that to 14 different guns. That’s what I face. And, for the record, 14 is not a number I pulled out of a hat. There’s a real guy who wrote 14 reviews about different guns blowing up. He did this over a period of about 6 months.

            Yeesh… Even an 8th grade science student would notice that there is one common denominator in those 14 reviews… Namely the idiot posting them…

          • Edith, B.B. is only one reason I feel I am missing something if I don’t check in here. You are the other. I absolutely love it when you are able to expound on the often less obvious aspects of doing business and public relations. You are kind yet firm, and thus far, you are just plain right.
            I absolutely hope that new2 this finds this blog and posts to be the place to visit often.

            I take full responsibility for writing this; the voices in my head are innocent.

            Ken

            • Ken,

              Don’t count on it. Seriously thinking of changing my name to “GoneFromThis” because of the censorship, misinformation, and I don’t know a kind way to say this…….those who just down right insist on defending an obviously inferior product when there is so much evidence which points in the opposite direction.

              • I don’t want to contradict you or anything but I’ve been on another forum for a while now and even tought I don’t own an airforce rifle I don’t i remember someone else complaining about these. The Talon SS isn’t available in our country but the Talon and Condor are and I’ve only heard praises about them, moded, customised or stock only good comments and it’s not like we don’t have any good to compare it too, we get the good stuff as long as there is no silencing shroud over the barrel, so all the asian airguns are available here too.

                Is it possible you got a lemon or defective gun? Maybe someone in your area has one he’s willing to let you try so you can compare with another AF rifle?

                J-F

              • new2this,

                We can agree to disagree & move on. I can’t imagine why you would belabor a point when it’s become patently clear that others are just not going to be persuaded by your point of view because of a completely different personal experience.

                Let’s agree on one thing: Everyone on this blog likes airguns. If you don’t like a certain gun, don’t read a blog about that gun. If you continually bang heads with certain blog readers who have a different point of view, don’t read those comments. I don’t agree with everyone on this blog, but we have a common interest: shooting.

                Here’s a useful quote: “There’s something to like about everyone, even if it’s just the color of his pants.” So, take a breather from the AirForce subject and focus on other shooting-related topics that you find rewarding and that don’t cause you so much distress that you feel like leaving.

                We have tens of thousands of people reading this blog but only a few hundred who contribute to the blog comments. By repeatedly telling us that we’ve sold out or that we don’t know what we’re talking about, you discourage the friendly discourse we’re accustomed to and may be chasing away other newbies who are now tentative in making a first-time comment because they may be labeled by some unattractive term if they bought an AirForce gun and like it.

                You’re not the only person who’s bought something he dislikes or regrets. Just about everyone on this blog has a list of guns they wished they hadn’t bought.

                So, if you want to change your screen handle, how about swapping out new2this to Sumatra Man 🙂

                Edith

          • Edith,

            Thanks for taking the time to post this explanation of the process for reviews to be posted on the PA site. It’s logical and fair. Occasionally a newborn airgunner makes a big deal on other airgun forums about his review (might have been positive or negative) not being posted on PA’s site. It’s easy to usually point out that BOTH positive and negative reviews exist on PA’s site but this explanation is first hand. I’ve bookmarked this.

            Must give you a warm aand fuzzy feeling that you are overwhelmed by your editing duties since it’s a testimony that what you and what’s his name are having an affect on gross sales at PA. Must be very exciting to know that you’re both playing such a critical role in this success.

            kevin

            • Kevin,

              My name says it. However I am not with out vast experience in powder burners and muzzle loaders. And I probably have 20 years experience with air guns. I mostly read other blogs and forums. Occasionally I get over here and usually just read and leave. But today’s topic struck a chord.

              Now as far as positive vs negative comments on PA this is a general observation on my part. It seems the positives usually out weigh the negatives, and in the case of AF guns, the ratio is far higher than on all the other sites I visit.

              For instance, just checked reviews on the Eun Jin Sumatra carbine here. There are 11, and all are 5 star. This agrees well with what I see in the real world. I have never seen any criticism of the Sumatra except for the sights and the trigger, yet alone a totally bad review!

              But guess what? On all other sites the ratio of positive to negative for AF Talons/Condors is about 60 positive, 40 negative. That is not precise. I did no count. So it may be 65 pos and 35 neg or 50/50 or even 35/65. The actual count is not the point. The point is that else where there are a significant number of disgruntled AF owners. But here, for the AF Talon there are 8 five star 0 of any other star! For the Talon SS, 42 5 star, 8 4 star, and 2 3 star 0 who say the gun is a dud!

              This is no way agrees with what I see in the real world. Hmmm, what gives? Interesting to say the least.

              • new2this,

                Re: “Hmmm, what gives?”

                Wanted to respond to your comment and question to me. First my disclaimers….I don’t work for PA, I’m shallow in that I like traditional metal and wood on my airguns, I’m not a black gun guy, I’ve shot a friends condor a few times, I have never owned or shot a sumatra or a career but hear great things about them, I take all reviews (at PA and other retailers sites) with a grain of salt. The reviewer usually has one extreme view or the other. The gun wouldn’t shoot out of the box so it’s bad OR I’m the smartest airgunner on the planet since I chose this gun and it’s the best bar none. I think you said it very well when comparing a new gun purchase with a newborn baby. Might be the ugliest and most dysfunctional kid but its parents think it’s beautiful.

                Your comment spurred me into quickly looking at the reviews on the PA site. There are a variety of talon and condor models that have reviews. I looked at the condor model with the most reviews (43 total) and the talon with the most reviews (51 total). I read most.

                “Insane power, wicked looks, awesome, mind blowing accuracy”. The typical buyer profile I expected. Many reviews echoed your sentiments about the air force guns, i.e., bad trigger, quality of the grip is poor, the grips don’t align themselves, buttplate issues, etc. Those comments are repeated in multiple PA customer reviews about the talon and condor.

                What gives? Rather than just look at the ratings I think actually reading the reviews can be very revealing. Be prepared to wade through the “wicked, insane and awesome” part to sift out what’s relevant for you and me.

                kevin

        • NRS,

          Well put, and I could not agree with you any more. My comments are ALL about the gun and the gun’s manufacturer, not Pyramid Air. PA is like A++++ number one in my eyes.

          BB, as far as “dealers” modifying them before delivering them, that is indeed true. They modify them because they NEED to be modified to correct factory deficiencies! And people like Tim at Mac 1 and MM and Tony at Talon Tunes and others of the same persuasion generally succeed in making the gun better. In the case of some one like Tony at Talon Tunes, according to his customers MUCH better.

          I have not heard even one of Talon Tunes customers who hasn’t praised his work as markedly improving the gun. And people gladly pay BIG bucks to get these modifications (improvements) done. If the AF guns were so good, he would not have the thriving business he now has! There are others also with thriving businesses producing parts for the AF guns. Parts like grips, forearms, better tank valves, devices to improve repeatability of shouldering the gun and on and on.

          I simply do not see any one with a thriving business modifying Eun Jin Sumatras. I believe there is one gentleman who does specialize in making them much more powerful. I am not sure even about that, but I don’t think he has a thriving business doing it.

          • new2this,

            The reason you see lots of people with thriving businesses regarding the AirForce guns is quite simple: They are the 57 Chevy or the VW Beetle of airguns.

            You can shoot AirForce guns as they come from the box, but you can also do so many terrific things with them to personalize them to your needs. Yes, AirForce COULD have done all those things, but not everyone wants to spend even more for a gun that has add-ons or mods they don’t want or need.

            The reason you won’t see anyone making a big business out of modifying any Korean guns is very simple: They don’t sell anywhere near as many as AirForce sells. Even if they did sell in numbers equal to the sales of AirForce guns, the Korean guns are not modular, compact or have additional accessories you can add to the gun to adapt it to your own shooting needs.

            Edith

            Edith

            • Edith,

              Lol, like I said before. You are funny.

              I can shoot Chinese bottom feeders from the box too. Some of them even shoot fairly well. Some do not. Same for the Air Force gun.

              The only difference is I can get the Chinese bottom feeder for $30 – $50 and do not have high expectations for it. The AF costs over $500 new and I EXPECT every one to perform out of box. From what I am seeing on the net, too many don’t.

              Also, I expect for $500+ MUCH better quality than what is evident from an AF gun! Edith, there is NO way you or any one else will stand in front of me, look me in the eye, and tell me that the AF gun is any where near the quality of the Korean guns in the $500 range and be telling the truth!

              You can rationalize that the AF is better than the Korean guns because many more are sold, but that is not the truth. The MAJORITY of the people in the last election voted for Barak Obama also. Absolute proof that the majority doe not always make good choices!

              And you can rationalize that there is a thriving cottage industry built around the AF guns because they are “modular” and you would be half correct. Some of the mods made are simply not needed and are just a matter of personal choice. But others are absolutely necessary to be able to even shoot the gun accurately.

              Proof? Scope an AF gun with medium scope rings and try to shoot it. Yet that is easy to do with MOST guns! Even with the highest rings I could find I STILL can not comfortably get my eye and the scope aligned! SO……people created things like a wok butt and other custom solutions to help at the butt end of the gun. There are also extra high rings available that may be necessary for some to be able to use a scope with the AF. SO…..AF it self and others created devices like the tri rail to get the scope up higher to get better alignment. Some went the other direction and created devices to get the tank lower. And any competition shooter will tell you ANY misalignment of the sights and shooters eye will seriously impact accuracy.

              AF guns have NO pressure gauge. SO…..the after market industry had to create devices to allow you to see the pressure in the tank and also to fill the tank without removing it from the gun! Many or even MOST pcp guns in the price range of the AF CAN be filled without removing the tank AND have a gauge to see tank pressure. Any knowledgeable pcp buff will tell you that a chronograph and tank pressure gauge are absolutely necessary to set a pcp gun up properly to give the best accuracy with the least expenditure of air for the power setting.

              The trigger on AF guns is not up to snuff with what is available on say a Marauder in the same price range as the AF or even the EJ Sumatra. Heck, even an unmodified Disco trigger beats it! And for less than $5 worth in parts and about 10 minutes time I can dramatically improve a Disco trigger. All those triggers are way better than the AF. All are adjustable to some degree or the other, the Disco only with simple modification. The AF is not! SO….a whole cottage industry has sprung up to modify, adjust and/or improve the AF trigger. Those mods are not inexpensive though, as the AF trigger is not easy to work on/with! And any competition shooter will tell you that a really good trigger is an absolute necessity to shoot a gun accurately.

              Changing grips, while not absolutely necessary, will dramatically affect the accuracy of your shooting if the new grips fit much better. And it is not hard to get grips that fit better.

              Adding a much wider better shaped fore arm, while not absolutely necessary, will dramatically affect the accuracy of your shooting if the new forearm fits much better. And it is not hard to get a forearm that fits better.

              SO, yes, the AF is modular. And it is a dang good thing it is! Else it would be MUCH more difficult and expensive to fix the factory deficiencies.

              I would state that the modularity was NOT done to allow the customer to better modify the gun for their preferences, though. Rather it is done strictly for the purpose of making a gun that is so simple to manufacture that costs to do so are absolutely minimal. In other words, Air Force is MOST interested in building a gun as cheaply as possible and selling it for as much as possible!

              So keep the rationalizations coming. I will keep shooting them down.

              • new2this,

                You obviously do not care for the AirForce design. But reading your comments has prompted me to write a new series about them, because I think there are a number of new readers who need to know about these guns, so I appreciate all you have said.

                Those who saw Greg learn how to shoot my Talon SS last Saturday and how quickly he became a force to be reckoned with now know that the AirForce rifles deliver the goods. I was planning on a special long-range report, so I will include them in that, as well.

                Thanks,

                B.B.

                • Casual reader and lurker.

                  BB,
                  This comment is in no way meant to be argumentative, but if you are planning on doing a longterm series, may I suggest you request that PyramydAir send you out a brand new (unbiasely selected) Talon/or Condor. That would be the only true way to get a new buyers take on the rifle (velocity spreads, workmanship, etc.).
                  I’m pretty sure over the years you have worked out the kinks of yours (especially since you were a tech ; adjusted your top hat, etc). I’m pretty sure if I put a few of my rifles in Greg’s hands he would be fairly impressed with their accuracy, but he was not there when I was getting some of them up to snuf.
                  Just an idea.

                  • Jason,

                    My Talon SS is box-stock. I have never had it apart. I have changed the barrel, but any owner can do that.

                    Perhaps because my gun is stock is the reason it has worked for over a decade. It’s obvious that there are a lot of folks out there breaking these guns every day, in the name of modifying them.

                    All I do is shoot it.

                    B.B.

              • From what I’ve seen, every complaint levied against the Condor could be levied against the AR-15… Stock models have terrible triggers, a thriving aftermarket of modular tune-up mods, terrible stock vs sight alignment… (Suggestion: don’t try stuffing the air bottle into the pocket between shoulder joint and ribs — just put the toe of the bar there; you don’t need anything more since there’s no noticeable recoil and it puts the bottle up near your cheek… a position I’ve also seen used for AR-15/M-16/M-4 usage|

                You’d probably complain because civilian AR-15 clones might be chambered for either .223Rem or 5.56 — and one is adivised not to use 5.56 in a .223, though the other direction is considered safe…

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO#5.56_mm_NATO_versus_.223_Remington

                {Aside to B.B.: something to consider if you equip that lower with an upper:

                To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Rock River Arms)[19] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well.

  14. Hello, B.B.

    Looking forward to your recap of LASSO this weekend. The best airgun event I ever attended! It wasn’t a huge event, but everyone in attendance was happy to be there, and I can’t recall a gripe (OK, for us plinkers, a bit windy) from anyone apart from typical ribbing each other about who made the most amazing shots on the range.

    The big-bore guns and shooters were amazing. These folks put on a show, and it was such a friendly competition, even though you could see how much effort and skill was involved from all.

    The small-bore range was great fun, and David Enoch had dozens of nice targets out to 100 yards for us.

    Meeting you, Jim Chapman, Randy Mitchell, the folks from AirForce, and a host of others was an added treat.

    There were s a few new air gunners who were in kind of a giddy mode, and their “fun” was contagious.

    Hey, and that barbecue…wow! I pg shot on site, and cooked the next day with some obvious skill.

    I’m going to gratuitously say that my new Air Arms TX200 (from Pyramyd) got its first workout, and it shoots almost as good as it looks (but it looks perfect). I believe the Pyramyd website and employees did a fair and accurate job of presenting and selling this rifle. The reviews are balanced and accurate, and their advertised specs for performance were spot-on. The idea of letting users put their opinions on the site is one way to provide “truth”, although views of that concept will vary. Commonly, critical reviews will show the divergence of opinion from users. Some will say the TX200 is easy to cock, others disagree. Even at LASSO, Gary (of our NTAGM group) thought my TX200 had twang and his Nitro Piston was smoother…he’s a great shooter, but I’m not convinced. Debates are unlikely to end.

    I see Pyramyd making great efforts to fairly advertise their products, with a wide range of choice and after sale support to assure satisfaction. Their policies are a good model. I thank them.

    • Jerry,

      Thank you for commenting today!

      Everybody, this is the Jerry who told us all about buying a new TX 200 a couple weeks back. If you wonder how things went at LASSIO, listen to him.

      As for the “enthusiastic shooter” (the guy in the giddy mode Jerry mentions) I will talk about him tomorrow in my LASSO report. He made my day with his enthusiasm and joy.

      Lotsa pics and a big report tomorrow.

      B.B.

  15. How do you tell the consumer the truth about airguns? Also known as marketing or advertising.

    This is a slippery slope. Yes, honesty is the best policy but what is “Truth” when it comes to advertising? Misrepresentation isn’t as common anymore since we’ve tarred and feathered all the snake oil salesmen. The Whole Truth doesn’t fit into a 30 second commercial and can’t be printed on the outside of a gun box. The Whole Truth takes time and commitment to reveal since it usually comes one small piece at a time.

    Marketing/Advertising is not what you say but how you say it. Sound bytes and catch phrases aren’t designed to educate consumers they’re designed to grab attention. If you as a consumer buy solely because of advertising you’re probably going to be disappointed. Lesson 101.

    Are you a consumer that is focused on horsepower? We’ve got the car for you!! 0-100 in 3 seconds, you’ll be the envy of all your male friends and you’ll also automatically get hot chicks! Reality-low gas mileage, high horsepower + torque tears a car apart and repairs are costly on this model. Plan on new tires every 3,000 miles. Average mpg on the window sticker is wrong.

    Are you a consumer that is focused on high mileage because of the current cost of gas? We’ve got the car for you!!! 100 miles per gallon and a great warranty! Reality-it only does a top speed of 40 mph up our passes here in the rocky mountains, you have room to haul one dog and one small suitcase and if you get hit by a VW bug you’re dead. Average mpg on the window sticker is wrong.

    I don’t pay much attention to what manufacturers advertise. Research is cheap and my priorities in a purchase may be different than yours so I don’t expect every manufacturer to write an honest book about every product they sell. Unrealistic.

    When it comes to airguns advertising velocity sells. Probably the #1 critieria for most airguns sold at big box retail outlets. Since velocity claims are based on shooting a 2 grain nylon pellet is this lying? No. Is is deceitful? Probably. But it’s the truth.

    If you as a consumer buy solely because of advertising you’re probably going to be disappointed. Lesson #102.

    It’s always been the consumers responsibility to determine what the whole truth is. Retailers like Pyramyd AIR are a huge help to the consumer. Not only do they freely offer first hand reviews from multiple sources in a variety of formats but they do it for free. PA has a no questions asked return policy which bolsters my confidence in their product descriptions and reviews. This is closer to the Whole Truth than any advertising.

    kevin

  16. I would have probably still bought my Beeman P17 single-stroke pneumatic, even if I were told it is very hard to cock. But, geeezzz, is it ever hard to cock. I do like the pistol, but I only want to shoot it a few times before I pick up a CO2.

  17. Off Topic (although as always this was a great read)
    Matt…finally the weather broke yesterday. Still chilly (right around the freezing mark) but sunny and absolutely no wind.
    So we (myself, a friend and my boys) headed out to the range to try out the new Savage .22WMR.
    It had come with a 3-12 Bushnell…not great, but it will do till I get something else on it (Hawke tactical most likely).
    But whoever boresighted it at the factory did a stellar job. Posted a target at 50 yards and the very first cold bore shot was about 3/4″ right of dead center. Decided that instead of screwing with the scope I’d just try for some groups with a couple of the different ammo I had (Wincherster, Federal and CCI all 40gr).
    The best was the Federal which was putting 5 shots in an inch, which I thought was pretty good for the first days shooting on a new barrel, and seems to confirm what I’ve read about the cartridge…that an 1.5 inches is about as good as it’s going to get at 100yds.
    My first feelings about the rifle are positive (it’s the 93FVSS). It’s seems well made though the composite stock is a little lighter (at the backend) and slim than I’d like…it doesn’t have a high enough comb when using a scope. I fixed this by attaching the Blackhawk Cheekpiece (plus a Caldwell bi-pod).
    And the Accu-Trigger is beautiful to use. Once the first stage is taken up it’s fires at a nice, crisp 1.5 lbs. It’s adjustable but for now I’ll leave it as it is.
    For an all in price (with accessories and scope) of just under $500 I’m very pleased.

    But then…we headed over to the big bore range. My friend had brought is Lee Enfield that I’d mentioned.
    We put up some targets at 100 yds (it has iron sights) and loaded up.
    Okay…a bit of explanation. As many here know my father was an avid gun person when I was young. Unfortunately for whatever reasons I never caught the bug till he passed away in 2006…by which time he’d liquidated all his guns. .17/.222/.223/22-250/.270…heck the list went on and on.
    But I never went big game hunting with him…so up till now my centerfire shooting has been limited to going out with dad prairie dog hunting with my .222 (which is long gone).
    Well…I got behind the stock of the .303 Enfield and pulled the trigger.
    Holy…..??? is all I can say.
    I can’t imagine standing in a WWI trench shooting that thing all day long.
    Anyhoo, fired off a dozen rounds from that, then headed over to the pistol range to dump a dozen mags downrange from his custom CZ85 9mm.
    Today it is snowing.

    • CowBoyStar Dad, thanks for coming through with the review. I’m glad that you enjoy your Savage. One inch at 50 yards, though, is not quite as good as expected, and I would hope for better than 1.5 inches at 100 yards. At 50 yards, a top level .22LR can easily go under an inch. Accuracy falls off at 100 yards, but I would think that .22 WMR would still be going strong. So, I would hope for better, and I would try CCI Maxi Mags. BG_Farmer told me about them, and they do a great job with my Ruger Single Six. I really enjoyed clipping the top of a berm with one at about 40 yards off-hand.

      So, fill me in on your reaction to the Lee Enfield. Recoil too heavy? This is supposed to be a light recoiling 30 caliber. 🙂 In fact, you’re supposed to be able to really make that bolt fly in rapid fire. I know that the heavy 30s like the 30-06 Springfield, 7.62X54R, and 8mm Mauser really do give you a wallop in a bolt action, but I think with the .303 you could adjust. I remember the first time I took my Winchester 94 30-30 out, I thought that the violence of the recoil was stunning. Now, it’s hardly noticeable, and the same is true for my M1 Garand in 30-06. So how was the accuracy of the Lee Enfield?

      Matt61

      • Matt, definitely going to wring out the Savage more when the weather improves.
        But…I have read a lot about the WMR…it isn’t as accurate at 100yds as a LR, and in fact it seems that a 1″ group at 100yds would really be something to write home about.
        Everything I’ve read is that for long range (upto 150yds) sniping of squirrel size animals one wants to go with the .17HRM.
        The .22 WMR is more for coyote/jackrabbit sized game, where being able to place a bullet in an inch and a half would easily be sufficient. I really agonized over which of the two calibres to go with and went with the WMR because it bucks the wind better. We’re on the prairies so windless days are few and far between.
        As far as the .303, I’m sure I would get used to it and by the time we were driving home I was ready to turn around and give it another try. I guess I actually had it in my head that ‘it’s a centerfire like my .222 so should have about the same recoil’. HA!!
        But I can see why the smaller caliber assualt rifles have taken over from the battle rifles.

    • CSD,
      My first experience of shooting a full bore rifle was with a .303 Enfield.
      I had bought 200 rounds,fired one,then tried to sell the other 199 back to the guy I bought them off.
      DaveUK

      • You sound like my father and brother the first time we took my father’s 12ga Browning A-5 out… My brother fired it once, and had a bruised shoulder. My father fired it 4 times, and decided that was enough for the time. I finished the rest of the 25 round carton with no side-effects.

        Best we’ve figured out is that: 1) I had the [no-recoil pad] stock pulled in firm vs my brother having an air gap; 2) my measly 130lbs at the time flexed like a willow tree, vs their 180lb standing still.

  18. HMHO: Telling the whole truth about a product is essential. When some lies to me to sell me something, including lies of omission, not only will I never do business with them again but I’ll warn my friends about them. I do this not only by speaking with my friends but by posting the facts (as I see them) on Facebook. That my not seam like much until you consider that not only will my friends see that, but so will their friends and so on. Ad to that the fact that Google includes public Facebook posts in search results and that audience grows exponentially. So yes, tell the truth, the good AND the bad.

  19. Well,then there is another REAL problem……the honest “truth” is an incredibly subjective thing.I assure you ANY 10 airgun owners,given time to get to know 10 identical (hypothetically) airguns…..would arrive at several different opinions! Each would be telling the “truth” as they know it,too.I point this out for one reason……you cannot eliminate dissapointment completely.
    You can also tell the truth in a “crafty” way,that takes emphasis off the negatives.I personally admire and support Pyramyd because they “play the ball where it lies”.BB is a great example of someone who finds out what the airgunner expects or wants,before answering which airgun(s) he reccomends.I think that is the real answer.I’m glad Pyramyd has embraced this method,and seems to be going foreward with this concept…..using knowledgeable airgunners to guide the customer to the best “match” for their budget and expectations.To me,this is the only way to get at the truth…..one user at a time.
    Will there still be dissapointed customers? Yes! But only because some folks don’t WANT guidance,some have to touch things regardless of the “WET PAINT” sign…..and to quote KenHolmes,”some folks practice discontent as a lifestyle”.Very elegantly stated,Ken!

    • FrankB,

      Good points. Perspective and perception by various airgunners is relative. What is accurate? What is a good trigger? What is a good scope? etc. etc. When you read reviews and advertisements it’s typically subjective. Sometimes on purpose other times just because it’s their perspective and/or perception.

      kevin

      • Thanks Kevin.I am always relieved,when reading a review,at the point where the author quantifies their standard.Phrases like “can hit a soda can from 40 ft “……or “sounds like a .22” make me feel a bit better,since an astute reader can ascertain the author’s field of reference easily! It is also possible to divine when the author is less objective & more like a teething puppy…….just exercising his mouth.LOL

  20. Well, I think the first step in dealing with the truth is to produce and sell a good product. Otherwise, I think that honesty is the way to go because your reputation will catch up with you. Other than that, though, I wouldn’t torment myself too much. One cannot anticipate every objection that anyone will have anyway, so I would exercise “judicial restraint” (the Supreme Court’s practice of only ruling on the Constitution as necessary rather than pursuing hypotheticals) and just answer questions honestly without going out of my way to provide damaging information. You hear about dealers who actually dissuade customers from buying something they have in mind. Good for them, but that is often because they direct the customer to something else. So, they still get a sale and a bit of credit in the bargain.

    I was once talking to a Catholic priest, and he mentioned that in dealing with what seems to be an intractable moral problem, there are often alternative ways to the truth… Speaking of which I like Rod Steiger’s portrayal of Pontius Pilate in Jesus of Nazareth. Upon being asked what his purpose is, Jesus responds that he is preaching about the Truth. At this point, Steiger’s eyes bulge, he comes within a couple inches of Jesus and shouts, “What’s the Truth?” I’d say that’s a heck of a good question. 🙂

    Mike, yes there is so much press on the ARs I can’t help but be curious although my mind is fairly made up. But as always, B.B. will blaze the trail for me. 🙂 B.B., the wisdom (at least in the early days of piston retrofits of the AR) was that a piston would lose you a half minute of accuracy. That would be interesting to see. Good luck with the .50 Beowulf and 6.5/8. They both cost a ton, even to handload. As for reliability without a piston, I’ve heard that you can keep it going just about forever, by running the gun wet and keeping it dripping with break-free. This seemed a bit to jalopy-like for me. I guess it will counteract the powder build-up in the action, but I wouldn’t try that method on the Eastern Front, the Chosin Reservoir or the mud and torrential rains of the South Pacific.

    Flobert, thought the same thing myself about the damage in boxing. Only a madman would get into that sport or someone with nothing to lose. I’ve heard about dropping the body weight to generate power in other martial arts besides boxing, but I can’t imagine how that would work with an uppercut where the punch is directed upward. Jack Dempsey says that the way to throw an uppercut is to shift the hips sideways away from the punching arm. It seems to work as far as I can tell. And Jack did know how to throw a punch. You should take a look at his manual, Championship Fighting. He writes, “I was at my peak as a fighter that day I met Willard under the broiling Toledo sun. My bodyweight was moving like lightning…” No doubt that boxing is an awesome martial art. That’s why for folks like you and me, I have invented the new sport of no-holds-barred/no contact fighting….

    Matt61

    • Matt61,
      I used to box at clubs and shows as a young fella and picked up skills which still come natural today.
      Not that I’ve had to use them skills very often I may add.
      Having a better insight into how to handle oneself during a fist fight,I am often amazed at how many blokes can’t punch to save their lives.
      The head down haymaker being the most common practice amongst thugs and soccer hooligans.
      From the comfort of my Taxi cab on a Saturday night I would see these fights start and end with both Parties puffed out and rolling around the gutter after less than a minute.
      Keeping your head up and punching straight for more than just one minute would win most of the fights I’ve seen.
      DaveUK

  21. Blog readers,

    So, you like truth in advertising. That’s great. What do YOU do for a living?

    Lawyers? Doctors? Realtors? Salesmen? Plumbers? Roofers?

    Do you tell prospective clients the good, the bad, the ugly? Always?

    Edith

    • Edith,

      fire insurance underwriter – I can sell you a policy to cover pig iron underwater but it comes with a rust exclusion. i also have a great joke for you but it won’t pass blog censureship.

      BB, see you in Roanoke?

      • Fred PRoNJ,

        I should have stated my comment more clearly: I was asking if people who expect the truth & nothing but the whole from airgun manufacturers are doing that same thing in their own job/profession/career 🙂

        Edith

        • Hi Edith! I will go on record here.I have done too many things to list them here,including being a service plumber.I have tried both ways,and telling the truth has always been the best way in my experience.Granted,it is viewed much of the time as odd,but anything I ever lost wasn’t worth gaining to me.When I struck out on my own,I had more customers than i could even service.Their loyalty was inspiring……..:)

    • Edith,

      Sometimes I feel myself a gun – the result depends on who’s pointing it and under which circumstances. One time I help to tell the truth and bring people useful and trusted information. Another time my skills are used for advertising – that says enough. I’m a wordsmith, I straighten, bend, polish and ornate other men’s words for a living. So I can say I’m used to lying, and thus very sensible to truth, always keeping to my own twisted code of honor – no lies outside the job, no harmful lies inside the job, and yes, money do smell, so I’m very discreet about the job.
      And I never expect anything from the manufacturer, only users reviews or first-hand experience.

      duskwight

    • I try to be truthful to my clients.
      I sell photographic equipment to gov’t/industry/schools. For me, having a client feel that I’ve mislead him doesn’t just mean I’ve lost that person as a client, and the couple of hundred/thousand dollars he may spend…but it could instead jeopardize a contract worth $100,000.00 to my company.
      Also, though I am paid by my employer, my attitude is that I work for my client. If they are happy with what I do, they spend more money, and that in turns benefits my employer.
      Years back I had an instance where a buyer approached me wanting to spend about $20,000.00 on equipment that definitely would not do what he wanted long term (and what he should have been buying would actually be less $$). I told him I could not with good conscience sell him what he wanted and sent him away with some literature and internet links to do some further study.
      My boss was livid (we work in the same office so he could hear me send the fellow away emtpyhanded).
      It was on a Friday so I spent the weekend wondering what the fallout would be.
      Well, Monday morning the fellow walked in, purchased what I’d suggested, plus said he’d like to set up a year long contract for his dept.
      Truth in advertising always works for the best in the long run in my opinion.

    • Edith,
      I’m retired – nothing to lie about.
      My career was computer programming, tech support, and database design. There was nothing there to test my proclivity to lie since you can’t lie to a computer, so I must have a bunch of lies in me waiting to spill out. I guess I do lie to my kids. I tell them I’m not squandering their inheritance, I’m just having fun.
      -Chuck

      • Not picking on you Chuck… but why is it, that the software guys always blame the hardware guys for problems…. and the hardware guys always blame the software guys?

        I’m not even insinuating that you would have been part of it, but lies abound in the computer world.

        -Charles

    • Edith,
      This is a question that is near and dear to my heart. What do I tell my customers?
      I’m not a politician, nor a political type, like so many managers that I’ve met in recent years.
      Where someone like myself is forced with telling the truth (not that it takes any effort from me) is when I’m asked, “How long will something take?”. I’m sure there are many here who have experienced, like I have, the customer who wants you to tell them what they want to hear, versus the truth. Sometimes the answer can get complicated by your managements style. For instance, organizations who are run by bean-counters and micro-managers can such the life, and productivity, out of any project, and yet they are the very ones who want things done in half the time that it will actually take.

      But to get back to what has worked for me. THE TRUTH! I’ve won contracts because I gave realistic estimates, where none of my competitors would dare. I started my career in a very formal environment where we actually walked our projects through the software engineering life-cycle, from requirements definition (sometimes before that, starting at domain analysis), all the way through the maintenance phase, with documentation, reviews, traceability all the way through.

      Here’s how I knew what “realistic” was. I know that at a minimum, real effort was necessary in the following areas; requirements gathering, preliminary (high level) design, detailed design, coding, and finally real testing.

      This may seem obvious to some, but there’s a reason why the Software Engineering Institute has for decades said that some 85% of all software engineering projects result in failure. The issue is dishonesty, or lack of knowing what is really involved in doing a job in the real-world. What most companies, VP’s, CTO’s, middle layer managers, and project managers want is SOMETHING NOW. They want to go from conversation to code, without design, without review, and without the real time required.

      Here’s what they get. They get something out the door in maybe half the time, but is limping, and will never be what it should be. They get years of pain that customer service will never resolve. They end up needing to track more issues than it would have taken to track the products development. They get a less than stellar reputation (at least the company does). It’s the classic, “Pay me now, or pay me later.”.

      The really good software engineers, and companies, know that a slightly longer design time will dramatically reduce the cost over the entire life-cycle. So when I’m asked by a serious customer, or manager, how long will something take, I factor in at least a few phases. My estimates are always realistic, and things just work. But that’s from the mind of a technical person. Political types have an entirely different psychology, that I don’t care to relate to.

      Victor

  23. Here’s my post from a few days ago.
    …
    B.B.,

    While your advice may be good, ultimately it’s what the industry wants us to want that matters. Namely, they want us to want a springer that shoots a .177 pellet at a minimum of 1000 fps. If I walk into a store, that’s what they are likely to have. There isn’t a lot of advice available either. Store clerks don’t know any better, and really don’t care.

    Would it makes sense for someone to write a small, easy to read, book/booklet that provides a simple overview of what the pertinent factors are (e.g., cocking effort, type [pneumatic, springer, PCP], weight, sights, etc.), along with parameters (e.g., velocity, caliber, energy, etc.) and how they map to specific applications (e.g., hunting, target shooting, plinking, etc.)?

    I’m thinking a relatively small booklet with an obvious title, like

    ============= Air-gunners Buyers Guide ==============
    == What You Need to Know Before You Buy an Air-gun ==

    This is should NOT be encyclopedic, but rather should cover the most obvious elements of real (that should be, at least) interest to a potential newbie. It should have plenty of references, including web-links.

    So what would our blog members like to see in such a booklet? Remember, it has to be relatively brief, and yet cover the fundamental essential to a newbie. No low-level technical details, only high level, brief, descriptions of the various power-plants, for example.

    If I walk into the gun section of a Wal-Mart, I will see a few books, including a gun buyers guide, so it’s not as if customers have to browse through a catalogs worth of books. Because I buy most of my ammo at Wal-Mart, I run into lots of air-gun shoppers. They rarely buy an air-gun the first time around, and the store clerks aren’t comfortable make recommendations. If such a book were on the shelf, the store clerks could simply recommend that they take a look at the book, or buy one at say, $2.00 a pop. I realize that I’m playing fast and loose here, but I do see some potential for a partial solution to some of the problems with this discussion.

    So, again, what would our blog members like to see in such a booklet?

    • First off,it should include a simple intro to the pros & cons of each of the airgun “families”.At least then they will be looking in the most suitable direction.I like your idea Victor! It is the simplest way to make the “truth” profitable……sell it to the wiser consumer.Caveat Emptor(sp?) spellcheck doesn’t know either!

    • Victor,

      This is what I’d like to see in a 2012 Introduction to Airguns booklet.

      1-What is an airgun. Various powerplants defined. Pro’s and Cons. Springers (breakbarrel, underlever or sidelever. What flavor do you like?), pcp’s, msp’s, ssp’s, CO2 and bb guns

      2-Power. How much do you need? FPE explained and recommendations for shooting small pests, short range paper, medium range cans and long range accuracy.

      3-Ammo. Do you really need to spend more on a pellet? Does head size make a difference? How does pellet weight affect performance and longevity in my gun? Do different pellets that weigh about the same peform the same?

      4-Choosing a scope for your airgun. Isn’t a scope a scope? Why are mil dots important for an airgun? Is AO important? Some scopes survive on a 300 weatherby will they last on your magnum springer?

      5-Mounting a scope. Aren’t scope mounts the same? Why you need a scope stop with some airguns and not others. Why are there specialty mounts for some airguns?

      I could go on but need to leave for a dinner party. This “booklet” will cost more than $2.00

      kevin

    • Frank, Kevin,

      In B.B.’s reply to my first post at the top here, he said that he and Edith are working on such a pamphlet. I think it would be nice if they could run it by the group here. I appreciate your input on this matter. I really don’t see a better way to realistically address newbies questions in the wild (i.e., places like Wal-Mart). If the store clerks can’t help, then maybe a little something like a booklet/pamphlet will do the job. The questions that newbies have are so fundamental, that it won’t take much of a book to get them pointed in the right direction. Even the store clerks will benefit from knowing that such a book exists.

      Thanks,
      Victor

  24. Edith,

    Saw the new Evanix Rainstorm II on the PA site. Do you know if the owners manual will be available online before the big shipment arrives in late April?

    Thanks in advance, David H

  25. Okay, B.B and Edith are not the ONLY persons who make this a place to visit often, they are only the primary two persons. I will not try to name all of you because I will invariably miss someone, but I do read a lot of what you guys (and gals) write. You are informative, witty and usually reasonably civilized.
    I appreciate you (always, but maybe even more so now that there is nothing to watch on television and I am not ready to start cleaning those CPHP’s one by one just yet).

    @new2 this, I know there isn’t much I can add but I do want to tell you that I know you have had a frustrating and expensive experience. I hope you are able to recover some of your expense and separate the objective from the subjective. You offered a lot of objective information that substantiates your experience and you also made some serious over generalizations that remind me of myself. I think you will really get a lot from the blogging B.B. intends to do on the AirForce airguns. I seriously look forward to this. My biggest regret today is that I wasn’t able to travel a mere 250 miles to the LASSO just to see some of the people and airguns I have only read about and seen in pictures. In the grand scheme of things this isn’t a great regret, nor do I think it will be my only opportunity.

    Ken

  26. Edith,

    Just for the record, I am a retired railroader and try to avoid work these days. But back when I was working, my policy was simple. You take care of business by taking care of your customers. That doesn’t mean giving away the store. Just treat your customers like you would like to be treated in their place. If you are honest and don’t promise more than you can deliver, but attempt to work with the customer to reach their goal, they will appreciate and respect that. If they are incapable of that, you probably would be better off without them.

    A review based on a used air gun makes about as much sense as judging a new car based on your evaluation of a used one of the same model. Too much depends on the care the previous owner gave it. If I am going to buy a new car, I’ll take the reviews seriously. The seller of a new car is in a position to do something about it if the car does not meet expectations.

    I have an old car that was owned by two previous owners. If I were to buy a new one of the same make, only the most general observations about the quality of materials and build of the old one might possibly apply. You must have heard about the used car that was driven only on Sundays….at the drag strip!

    Tonight my grandchildren, Nicky and Melanie, have their first competitive shoot. They will be shooting Daisy 499’s for ribbons with their local club. Next Sunday they will shoot in a traveling series against several out-of-town teams. I will be coaching them.

    Les

    • Les,

      I once walked out on a position that I’d held for 3+ years because there was so much lying going on. I didn’t know about it until I overheard a conversation one day, and then I kept my ears open.

      Then, I found myself in a position where I was lied to in the most calculated way for 7 weeks by the two top people at the company. When I came home & told Tom what had been going on all this time, he said, “What…and you didn’t quit already?” No, I wanted to see what he thought. Well, the next day, I walked in, collected my stuff and emailed by resignation to my boss and the two people who had lied to me. My boss said, “You don’t think I believe them, do you? I’m not stupid. I know what they do. But I have a mortgage to pay.”

      And, with that, I toddled out the door to freedom. I’ve said this before, and I will say it again: Pyramyd AIR is a company that does not tolerate lies or misrepresentation. Tom & I have known Josh since he was shipping guns out of his basement. We’ve known Boris almost as long. We’ve seen Pyramyd AIR grow from one guy working out of his home to become what it is today…and still growing. I never have to worry about being lied to, deceived or manipulated. There are no office games. There’s no jockeying for position. No office politics. If the opposite were true, I would not stay. So, that’s why I say that Pyramyd AIR does everything humanly possible to present the truth to the customer and will bend over backwards to do the right thing. Sometimes, we miss the mark but it’s not because we’re doing it deliberately. Stuff happens no matter how hard you try.

      Edith

      • Edith,

        I enjoyed reading that you will not tolerate being lied to or treated dishonestly. I once quit a company I had worked for for eight years because of dishonesty in its dealings with employees. I will not tolerate that. I have quit more than a couple jobs because of being lied to by the people I was working for. It is actually less stressful to be out of work than to have to put up with that.

        It is good to read that Pyramyd AIR is not that way. But it comes as no surprise. Having read this blog for several years, I understand that you and Tom are not the type to put up with that kind of stuff. And, reading the stories Josh contributed here, I can see what kind of a person he would be to work for.
        He sets a fine example of a leader who is not afraid to do the right thing.

        I once worked for a guy who had a bad reputation for being a hard-nosed boss. But he was the best boss I ever had. All he expected was for his employees to come to work and do their best to carry out assignments. He never made a promise he did not make good on.

        Later, when I was a manager, I tried to lead by his example. I think most of my employees would say that I treated them fairly. I never expected them to do things I was unwilling to do, and never lied to them. But I did expect the honesty from them that my bosses expected from me.

        Les

      • I fell like you’re talking to me with this one! I did the same thing a few years ago, I’m (among other things) a locksmith, I went to work for a big security contractor on a contract where they had over 5000 doors and as many employees over 4 different plants and when I went for the interview to ask me to work for them in security and the locksmithing would soon come, the security staff was horrible, back stabbing liars. After 2 years I wasn’t a locksmith yet but I was one of the oldest employees that wasn’t part of management, that’s how many employees came and left, but I REALLY wanted that locksmithing job so I stayed another year, the RELIEF I felt when I turned in my stuff and got out the door, now I work part time with a bunch of very nice people (including my wife) and I work part time with my mother and father in law in translation, working with great people is so much fun.

        J-F

    • Wow Fred,thank you for that link.I read and reread it……then waded through the cynical responses from the usual naysayers,including one with a very tenuous grasp of physics.I personally expected the usual linear fluting,but had an aha moment once the barrel picture came up.The honeycomb fluting surely brings something new to the game.I would LOVE to test one…..perhaps this will trickle down to airguns & minimize the issue of harmonics as an accuracy variable.If I shot BR competitively,I would be trying one for sure.

  28. ON TRUTHFULNESS …

    Hi, BB — [JH, Push your chair back. Turn off computer. Get a pellet gun & go outside & shoot. You are spending too much time thinking about this and not enough time doing it. Stop reading the internet & start shooting pellet guns. B.B. …] some of BB’s best advice to me, back when I was a newbie, and, maybe to jog BB’s memory, as to who I am, the oldster who’s a few ‘moments’ older, …

    And to Edith, to whom I wrote that I discovered, totally by accident, that the “old” blogs can be searched by ANY term or phrase, and I’m still wishing the new ones could be also …. maybe some day …

    When shooting at soda cans at 40 feet, is that on end, or sideways?
    When shooting at NECCO wafers, is that upright, or on edge, at what distance?
    When shooting at plastic bottle caps, is that on edge, or laying flat, and at what distance?
    Myself, I’m shooting .25 caliber, at 2000 fps, at shirt buttons on edge, at 5 feet, and I’m not hitting a damn thing! What’s wrong with this rifle, pistol, slingshot ????

    JH

  29. I found this topic very interesting because it touches on my experiences and actions with air rifles and this blog. I read the blog daily and the majority of what I know about air guns can be traced back to Tom’s gift for sharing his knowledge so freely. I also feel that Pyramid Air has great sales people and value me as a customer. But I stopped purchasing air rifles here for the reason that is the heart of this topic. Pyramid Air has become the super store of the air gun world with the broadest inventory available anywhere. But because of the lack of accurate and detailed information supplied to them from the manufacturers all a customer can reliably learn about a new product is its model number and price. This really hit me several years ago when I was looking a printed catalog that listed a Beeman RX-2 and an RS-2 right next to each other. While the prices clearly indicated there were significant differences between them, the descriptions did not.

    If I am spending $500.00 to $1,000.00 for a rifle/scope combination I prefer not to sift through a large number of inappropriate choices to find the much more limited items I would consider. Well educated sales people can help with this. But it is unrealistic to expect detailed product knowledge on such a wide and ever increasing inventory. Perhaps a solution would be to designate known products that have a clear track record with some type of quality mark and allow a customer to search by those designations. There is no simple answer for this and it is frustrating that the manufacturers don’t address this problem they create for the people they ask to promote their products.

  30. In regards to a pamphlet for airgunners – the most often question I have seen is: “What gun will be good for plinking and shooting small game like raccoons, squirrels, and coyotes?” So I think the first page of the pamphlet should contain a table showing what calibre and fps are necessary for each type of animal. I have seen on this blog that there is already a table showing this (although I haven’t seen the table itself). Maybe it could be incorporated if it doesn’t violate copyright issues.
    -Chuck

  31. BB,

    “The Air Force guns are superior to all the Korean guns. They last longer, are more accurate and handle air better than any Korean model you can name.”

    I don’t know how you can substantiate that? It is patently untrue and I have seen no data to support your position. In fact, all the data I have seen refutes your claims.

    There a number of highly modified Air Force guns that he owners spent many hundreds or even more than $1000 to get modified which may have better accuracy than a stock foreign gun. But I am talking apples to apples. There are extremely few modified Korean or other guns around. They don’t need improving. But people spend from $200 to over $1000 to improve their Talons and Condors. So let’s allow this comparison for only unmodified examples of both guns. Only thing that would be allowed is an ldc or moderator on each as both are very loud.

    There is no controversy about the Eun Jin guns being finely made and superbly accurate that I can find on the web. Nor is there any about the FX, Bsa, nor Daystate guns. So I have named four that have WAY better reputations amongst 95% + of their users. That number is actually probably closer to 100% of their users. Those are not all Korean, but are all foreign made with much better reputations for quality and accuracy than the AF guns!

    There is a lot of controversy about the AF guns. You don’t have to look too far to find it either. You seem to base your statements on YOUR subjective “experience” rather than on the general populations reports.

    Sorry, I reject off hand your statements about the AF guns! You are obviously WAY biased toward AF. And that bias does not appear to be based on reasonable facts. Unfortunately the rest of the owners who have owned, shot and evaluated both guns would disagree with you. Even many who just owned AF guns only would disagree with you.

    Shame! Another “paid opinionist” who has succumbed to the pressure from sellers and manufacturers to say nothing bad about their guns!

    I have no chips to grind. I am paid by no one to have an opinion. I tell it like the chips fall. If a gun is good I say so. If it is bad, I say so.

    I try to point out the good AND bad points about each gun. Even those I consider super have some things that could be improved. And even those I consider bad have some good points.

    I am open to having my mind changed. But some ones subjective opinion is not going to do it. I have to experience it before I will believe it. And with AF I have not experienced it. Nor does my objective research suggest to me that I could or would with out spending more big bucks on it.

      • Edith,

        I own an Eun Jin Sumatra 2500 R carbine in .177 caliber. I have owned it for maybe 2 years with not a hitch to it. Bought it used on the yellow air gun classified. Actually I traded for it.

        Took it out of the box, aired it up, put a Leapers scope bought from PA on it, sighted it in and started testing it for velocity and accuracy. I went first to my accuracy standby, boxed 10.5 gr Crosman heavies. As per usual they shot exceedingly well. So do RWS hobbies, Rws domed, JSB Exact heavies, Eun Jin16.1 grains and a lot of other pellets. With the Eun Jin 16.1 grain on the highest power I get 950 fps with .1″ ctc groups or less for a whooping 32.27 fpe. Not shabby at all and I do not think an AF will do this with an 18″ barrel, but I honestly don’t know so I could be wrong.

        Mind you, this is indoors down a long hall way which I can barely get 10 meters of usable space with 3 large 3/4 inch plywood sheets as a back stop and a silent pellet trap bought from PA probably 15 years ago. The rest is an inexpensive folding portable shooting bench I also bought about 15 years ago. Nothing fancy but it is extremely sturdy. I have all kinds of rest devices, ranging from a simple Caldwell bag to a full blown clamping rifle rest which is easily adjustable in all directions. Most often I use the Caldwell bag with my hand rested on it and the rifle rested on my hand and both my elbows supported by the bench.

        This gun looks much nicer than an AF gun. IT was easy to get set up and no problem at all to get it to shoot extremely accurately. On a calm day at 50 yards I can get .5″ ctc groups at least half the time and no more than 3/4″ the rest of the time and those larger groups are my fault, not the gun. The fit and finish and quality of build and materials far exceed those found on the AF guns. Unless I missed something, the gun is all metal and wood.

        The most serious criticism I have of the gun? The fill port is unacceptable. It cuts the o-rings on the probe repeatedly. That was fixed by ordering a foster conversion port for it from PA and a metal nipple cover for the valve. Total cost to me was $40 including shipping. End of problem.

        The next most serious criticism of it were the iron sights. The aperture on them was so small as to make them unusable. That was fixed with a small drill bit which I used to drill out the apertures to a usable size. It would not have been an issue though, as I have scoped the gun and never have used the sights except to test them after I drilled them out. End of problem.

        The only other minor criticism was the trigger. As it came to me it was around 6 lbs, but very crisp and repeatable. I was able to adjust it to 3 lbs using the adjustment screw. It is a one stage and breaks clean as a thin glass rod snapping. Very usable, though I would prefer it be closer to 1 – 1.5 lbs. My lawyer and the companies lawyer would probably prefer I had left it at the original setting.

        This gun is beautiful. It has amazing accuracy. It functions flawlessly and it is extremely difficult for a user to mess it up as it just does not lend itself to tinkering.

        At $559.99 brand new it is just a tad more expensive than an AF Talon SS, and worth every penny! And I do not believe the AF Talon SS comes with a fill adapter, as the 2500 R does. So they are pretty much similar in price.

        I have put some where between 5000 and 10,000 pellets through this gun at all different power settings with all different brands and weights of pellets. Velocities would range from 550 fps at the lower end up to maybe 1200 fps with the lightest lead pellets. Of course I only shot a few at that level just out of curiosity. I like to keep all my pellets below 1050 fps and can do that easily at power settings of 9 and lower. It has 13 levels, but at levels higher than 9 it just wastes air. Even with the heavy Eun Jins. At 9 I get 950 fps and 12 – 18 good shots. At 13 I get 975 fps with only 6 good shots and the 6th is already down to 900 fps.

        So with a few minor tweaks and less than $41 and 30 minutes of my time this gun has been giving me much pleasure and no problems.

        Now I have only $5 into the AF after the extremely high cost of the initial purchase and have ordered $95 worth of .20 caliber pellets from PA as I had no .20 caliber pellets and the owner sent me maybe 500 total to use. I already have over 21 hours into testing this gun and trying to get it to shoot and I am not there yet! And that does not count about 5 – 10 hours on the internet researching the problems I am having to find solutions.

        Do you see now why I am madder than a hornet you just singed with a blow torch? Do you see now why I have already developed a disdain for the AF products?

        • new2this,

          All new AirForce guns come with fill adapters. They are also all accurate — unless someone modifies them in a destructive way.

          You can criticize the design all you like and tell us what you don’t like about it. But it’s time to reel in your vituperative attack against AirForce, because it won’t play on this blog.

          I have invited you to write a guest blog so you don’t have to put everything in the comments. I want to see your gun in pictures. You say that it has a deep crown that AirForce doesn’t use. So chances are, some bubba screwed it up before you got it.

          And ten meters is hardly the distance to test a rifle like a Talon SS. They belong out at 50 yards or 25 yards at least. The same for your Sumatra.

          I’m not going to stop this blog for one person — I don’t care who it is. If you want to talk reasonably with us and show us what you are complaining about, we will listen, but hijacking the comments of one blog post isn’t the way to get heard.

          Please consider the feelings of the thousands of other readers, who are interested in talking about air guns, but who left the other forums to come here because of all the sniping attacks and acrimony.

          B.B.

          • BB,

            You are correct about some things. I DO owe you, Edith, and the readers a big apology. I was angry about a product and vented that anger at you, Edith and the readers.

            I can tell you I am extremely sorry. I can tell you I wish I had not. None of that will make up for the fact I did. All I can do is change my behavior in the future.

            You are also wrong about some things. First, I do not believe this gun was “bubbaized” to coin a phrase. I was wrong about the crown. I just looked at the barrels again. There is perhaps a 1/4″ or less recess till the rifling begins and there appears to be a very slight angle from where the recess ends to the beginning of the rifling. It appears to be the same of both barrels and I believe it to be factory. The statement “They are also ALL (my emphasis) accurate” strikes me as self serving and sanctimonious as there is absolutely no way you could have tested ALL air force guns with ALL barrels out of the factory. 🙂 I question if even Air Force does that? I become very suspicious when people start using the words all, never, none and always. Those are absolutes which generally aren’t true!

            So maybe you owe me an apology for assuming this is a custom “bubbaized” gun when in fact it is not. The only thing bubba appears to have done is adjust the top hat incorrectly. That’s been remedied with no apparent harm done. THAT and the wrong pellets for the gun, and an inability on my part to get a reproducible cheek weld because of the inherent problems with the bottle being the butt of the gun appear to be the major reasons for inaccuracy.

            The offer to blog intrigues me. Not committing here yet, but I may just blog this gun and my search to find it’s accuracy. Without giving too much away I can tell you that a different pellet which Fed-Ex delivered from PA today simply blows my mind. With it, there does not appear to be any thing I can do to mess up a group! In spite of all the mentioned unsolved problems which still exist.

            I really hope that I can get it to perform like a champ. I would love to be able to go from a low power tack driver for plinking and practice to a medium powered .20 caliber tack driver for small game to a tack driving hammer for larger targets between possum sized to coyote sized. So I intend to give it a fair appraisal.

            If I blog it will be on that process of going from being mad as a hornet to being comfortable and happy with the gun. Or not if that happens. I intend to approach it differently than I have till now. With an open mind and an intention to be fair.

            Also, I am not an idiot. I realize 10 meters is inadequate for testing. Right now, it’s ALL I have. It is a 45 mile trek for me to a range where I can shoot at even 50 yards. And I KNOW from previous experience that if a gun won’t print SMALL one hole groups at 10 meters it is not even worth the trip. I won’t make that trek till I am sure the gun performs well AND the weather is going to be nice and the wind calm. The Disco and the Sumatra have both been thoroughly tested at 50 yards. They both do exceedingly well.

            So again, my sincere and humble apologies. I was wrong and I admit it.

        • New2this,

          I have sat on the sidelines here reading your exchanges with BB and others. While your writing style was/is a bit “forward”, it brought forth some interesting points about the AirForce rifle. Like you, I’m not in love with the looks of this rifle even though many have sung it’s praises. Unlike you, I am a bit of a tinkerer. If I buy a rifle that just isn’t shooting to my satisfaction, even if it costs big money or is a collectible or is a great buy (as your rifle appears to have been), I’ll start tinkering. I’ve upgraded a Benji NPSS gas spring rifle’s trigger and accuracy (crown job), changed sights on a FWB 300, chased down a bad O-ring on an RWS 350 after having taken it apart and vibration tuned it and checked piston and seal and experimented with dozens of pellets to find which one a particular rifle likes best. My current project is to overhaul the rise in my FWB 124 which BB has very kindly consented to help me with this October at the Roanoke Airgun show. To me, this is part of the hobby and I enjoy it. Takes my mind off all kinds of real life distractions (bosses, deadlines, honeydojobs around the house) but that’s me. I can understand your desire for an expensive rifle to shoot perfectly right out of the box. I can also understand the rules laid down by the people who run the “game” as it were and perceived censorship – the strict maintenance of a “G” rating for this blog, not allowing a review of a product not purchased from the vendor who runs the web site – preferring this to be posted elsewhere such as on the Yellow and so on.

          I think it would be great if your main complaint – accuracy – was due to pellet choice but you still have some dislikes on the rifle and that’s good to know. There’s no such thing as too much knowledge. I hope you stay around. Welcome to the Blog!

          Fred DPRoNJ

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