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Education / Training Keeping a log book

Keeping a log book

by Tom Gaylord, The Godfather of Airguns™
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

This report covers:

• What is a log?
• Firearms logs
• One of the benefits of keeping a log
• Break my heart
• Remember the Ballard?
• Logbooks for airguns
• Summary
• Ft. Worth airgun show update
• IZH-Baikal guns…going, going, gone!

This is something most of you know you should be doing, but you don’t. I was one of the many; and as a convert, I can tell you what keeping a log has done to my testing.

What is a log?
A log is a record of what was done, when it was done and there should be enough detail to know how it was done and what the outcome was. Organized people find keeping logs to be second nature, while people like me — who live from moment to moment — find log-keeping boring and tedious.

But my buddy, Otho, keeps logs of his shooting, and it only took a couple glances at them to convince me I should be doing it. Otho keeps logs of his firearms, so let me begin there.

Firearms logs
A firearms log is a memory of your shooting experiences. Not only do you keep the groups you shot, but you also keep the reloading data along with those groups. And you keep a record of the weather conditions on the day they were shot. Otho has been doing this for many decades. I have only been doing it for a few years, but the log has already helped me with my loads, as well as with a better understanding of some of my firearms.

I should keep a log for all my firearms, but right now I’m only keeping one for my rifles. I started out without a format; but within a couple years, I’ve developed a format. I keep the targets with pertinent data. For example, the number of shots is critical because many of my rifles put them into the same hole, and I usually shoot 10-shot groups.

One of the benefits of keeping a log
Something that may not occur to you is a log allows you to compare guns to each other. For example, I was spending a lot of time making loads for a .219 Zipper Improved. The cases had to be formed from 30-30 brass, then they had to be trimmed and so on. The rifle I had in that caliber was a Winchester model 1885 High Wall that had been built by the Mashburn company. It had a single-set trigger. What was not to like?

best Zipper target
This is the best 10-shot group I ever got at 100 yards with my .219 Zipper Improved.

But my plain-jane AR-15 with bull barrel out-shot the Zipper every time. Brass for the .223 Remington cartridge is plentiful (I have about 1,500 cases), and loading is simple and easy. I installed a Geissele trigger in the AR and now it’s my most accurate rifle. It can outshoot the Zipper every time — despite the Zipper needing far more care for its cartridges. Why on earth would I waste my time on a fussy rifle like the Zipper that’s less accurate than my AR? I still don’t like the AR platform, but I will own this particular rifle until I die.

best AR target
Now, this is a target. My AR did this very early in our association.

It took several pages of targets to prove that to me. When I saw the facts, I decided I could live without the fussy High Wall and could also learn to like the AR. This might never have happened if I didn’t have a log to consult.

Break my heart!
Another heartbreaker is my Weihrauch model 52 Hornet. The rifle looks like a Ferrari, with its sleek styling, double-set trigger and fancy wood. But the logbook says the rifle shoots like a $400 Mossberg with a dirty barrel. I’m still hopeful of finding the right combination for this rifle, because it costs so little to reload for the small Hornet cartridge. But if it doesn’t turn the performance corner at some point, it’s going on the block.

HW 52 rifle
The Weihrauch 52 is a pretty thing. But it doesn’t shoot…yet.

best 52 target
My best 10-shot .22 Hornet target with the Weihrauch 52 is a disappointment.

Remember the Ballard?
I haven’t written about the Ballard rifle for a while now, but it is never far from my thoughts. The targets I’ve saved tell a tantalizing tale of near-misses over the years. But then something happened. I recently acquired a book on buffalo rifles by Mike Venturino. He showed some groups that he was pleased with that I would formerly have been embarrassed to show. Mike thinks a 5-shot 2-inch group at 100 yards is something to be proud of.

My old Ballard has been performing well — I was expecting too much!

best Ballard target
Not a bad group, except for that one that went high and right. Ten shots from the Ballard at 100 yards.

The problem was that I was reading the wrong books! I was reading about Harry Pope and his legendary rifles, when the real world was nowhere near as accurate as the groups shown for those select rifles. Venturino’s book caused me to dig up some of my Ballard targets and decide that the rifle is really pretty accurate, after all.

Logbooks for airguns
I’m sure you get the idea of the benefits of keeping a logbook by now. But with airguns there are some special things to think about.

• Velocity and extreme spread — you’ll need a chronograph
• Benefits of deep-seating the pellets
• Head sizes and how they affect accuracy in each airgun
• The effects of wind on certain pellets from each gun at distances
• Harmonic testing results — where you add and move weights up and down the barrel to change the harmonics

When you create a logbook, you’re making a history of each gun you track. The targets mount up over the years and will better serve you than your memory. Working on the book is the least enjoyable part of shooting for me, but examining it has become my new favorite pastime.

Ft. Worth airgun show update
The Ft. Worth airgun show is tomorrow, from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. The door prizes and raffle prizes drawings start early and you must be present to win. There will be a drawing every hour, from 10:30 am to 2:30 pm. See the flier for more info.

IZH-Baikal guns…going, going, gone!
Trade sanctions on some Russian factories have ended all imports of guns from IZH-Baikal, including airguns. Once the guns currently in stock are gone, that’s it. This includes all guns under the IZH-Baikal brand name. Get ’em while you can!

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

165 thoughts on “Keeping a log book”

  1. B.B.,

    I’m so disappointed that I won’t be able to make the show. I brought down 18 airguns from my mountain home last weekend thinking I could make the drive. Wanted to surprise you like I did at Roanoke. Not to be.

    Please take lots of photos since I know some great airgunners will be there and some seldom seen airguns will be at your show as well. Sigh.


  2. Alas! I am starting a new job at Ruth’s Chris steakhouse this Saturday! I wanted to shake you hand sir!..and tell you how much this blog has meant to me! I am so grateful for your work Tom. This Saturday I will be thinking about what you shared with us recently regarding sales… problems are opportunities.

    As a fellow “moment to moment” sort of person I can appreciate the value of keeping a log…and the pain of enduring methodology. But….the benefits!

    Thanks for making science fun, helping me learn how to approach problems, and letting us stare through the window of your toy shop sir!

    I can’t wait for next year!

  3. BB
    If I could have only kept the eternal documentation that was the normal course of my work at Harley and transferred that discipline to my life outside of there I would have a wealth of knowledge to refer to that as I age seems to be slowly slipping into the depth of forgetfulness. The 11 years at Harley about half of my 8 hour shifts were occupied with documenting every little measurement , noise, temperature, vibration and so on in order for the engineers to be able to understand the issues and address them correctly.

    I only wish I could have kept that same methodology at home but like so many of us it just seems to much trouble and I was getting paid to do it at Harley so that made it seem worthwhile. In the truth of it that is actually more worthwhile to do it in your home life, but like most people I just never seemed to find the discipline to do so.

    I may try to start now that you have provided the incentive for doing so with concern to air guns and there many variables.


    • buldawg
      Off today but got a heck of a cold. Seems everytime the kids go back to school it ain’t no time and we all get something. I want to go mess with the speed but just don’t feel like it. Did you get that Whisper?

      • Gunfun
        I hate to hear you got a cold and don’t feel up to getting your speed up to speed and playing with it, that is a bummer. My wife and I have to be careful with the g-kids coming over if they are sick because our health conditions would make it even worse on us. My immune system is still real good, but my Wife’s immune system is pretty much non existent so if she even get within 10 feet of someone sick she gets it.

        The whisper is out for delivery , but has not got here yet. The jewelry scale I got from ebay is out for delivery also so I can weigh the Eley bullet shaped pellets I got and know what there weight also before I shoot them

        I left Alex a last message this morning that was not a pleasant one and I am just going to fix the hi-pacs myself. I am afraid that if I sent them back to him to fix that they would be sent back worse than they are now. I searched thru some forums today because he said that he could not find anywhere that stated anyone having issues with them, all I can say is he did not look very hard. I found both good and bad comments about them and especially in trying to deal with him over the issues. Most said he would not even respond so I guess I was lucky that I at least got some response although not to my satisfaction.

        But any way they will get fixed and I will get my 2240s up and shooting, I have to go do the 853 barrel to fit the crosman steel breach any way so I can do them then also.

        The airgun club monthly match is tomorrow and I may go depending on the weather as it is showing a 60% chance of rain so I will wait till tomorrow and see what it looks like. The field target range is a lot of the good ole Alabama red Clay that turns to mud real fast when wet and is like glue on your shoes and clothes once it dries.

        Just waiting for my whisper to get here.

        Hope you get to feeling better soon.


        • buldawg
          Whats that saying. If you want it done right you got to do it yourself.

          And perfect timing with today’s blog. Maybe you can make a log of how you fixed it. Then you will have it for reference if somebody else has the problem you had.

          • Gunfun
            Got my whisper and I an having sort of the same luck as you, it raining so I can at least get the scope mounted but not sighted and it don’t look very good for tomorrow either. I don’t know if I will keep it or not, it is very light and easy to shoulder. It just has to much plastic on it for me, I mean even the barrel is covered in a plastic fluted shroud and it just gives it that cheap look. My firepower is a better looking gun and at least has a metal barrel and more of a real gun feel. I may just get that Remington vantage that I told you about and resell the whisper. I will wait and shoot it first because it may surprise me.

            You got that right. it will be fixed right the first time and there really is not much of a log to make for fixing it because I believe most any one that has any common sense about them and how things fit properly together and need to be made to work properly can look at the issue and figure out what is wrong and how to fix the problem. That is all I am going to say about the issue. I am not going to berate or criticize him for his business practices or customer service as it will take care of itself with time if the issues are not corrected. And to add to your statement above ” if you don’t have the time to do it right the first time where will you find the time to do it right the second time”

            I would be more than glad to assist anyone else that has any issues with any products that they purchase or make and cannot get to work properly.

            Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime.


              • Gunfun
                Yea I got the scope mounted and got to shoot it some, it is not what I expected when compared to my 40 buck firepower. It has a lot of spring twang and just feels cheap, it does hit real hard on my backstop. I have not chronyed it yet but I am not sure that I am going to keep it. I think your suggestion to buy the nitro piston crosman would please me more and be closer to if not better than the Firepower. I am going to try and shoot it some more tomorrow and see, but I just don’t have the same pleasing feeling from it that the Firepower gives me.

                I will know for sure after I shoot it some more.


                • buldawg
                  You remember the conversation we had about the Whisper. They serve their purpose. But definitely not for me. And like we were talking I think that little nitro piston gun will surprise you. If you get a chance to get it I would grab it.

                  And I got something to tell you about the Evanix speed. I will txt you later.

                  • Gunfun
                    I shot the whisper some more today and sighted it in my backyard and I am going to either sell it or send it back because it is just o buzzy and cheap feeling for the price they want for them. Luckily I got mine at quite a discount so I think I can sell it and make a few bucks on it instead of sending it back. Although if it does not sell within a week or two I will just send it back.

                    I just scored a crosman nitro venom from gun broker that’s is like new in the box for 100 incuding shipping with a cheap 4×32 scope like what’s on the Gamo. so the gamo is going somewhere besides here. I do think I will be much happier with the crosman nitro also. The Remington nitro vantage has not been back up for sale yet, but the venom is the same and actually the Remington is another crosman rebrand.

                    I got to go now but I will get some pics of the tubes and text you later also. They do line up concentrically without the o-rungs on the tubes so they just need the first 1/2 to 3/4 thread removed.

                    Read where me and Daiboloslinger have been posting back and forth right here and at the bottom.

                    Will text you later with pics.


                • I just bought an original np they’ve reworked with a wood stick and open sights at the Dicks near me. I say its the best original np out, and I’ve had 3 other variants. Im strategising the stock customizing cause its a beautiful blank slate. Two squirrels in a minute of each other first day out, one straight up the other 35,40yds out with the open sights. Loving it, it smacks the pants off the limited in finish and its .177 so its just more versatile.

                  • No pics? I hope the used a soft stick 😉 . Did any of the NP’s ever come with open sights? It sounds like it’s shooting well.
                    I just got done taking my QB-36 down to bare wood and applying about 4 coats of Tru-oil as well as smoothing and polishing the trigger guard and fitting the butt pad. I found a couple other little things that I’ll attend to when I pull it back down to finish it but I’m in no rush, it”s pushing out 8.18 grain Stoeger match pellets @ 625 fps, 10 in .625 @25 yards with a cheap Red Star 4×20 scope. I considered putting a Crosman NP spring in it while I had it down.Sounds like you got a keeper there! Have you chronied it yet? More info?


                  • RifledDNA
                    So you are saying that the Nitro venom I got from gun broker is a great gun and I will like it way better than the gamo whisper I got that just feels so cheap and makes so much noise and buzzing when its shot that it is like chainsaw. I know if it is as good or better than the firepower o got for 40 bucks that is a rebranded crosman quest, vantage ,phantom etc. then I will be very happy with it. I cannot wait till it gets here, it will be a couple weeks because I have to send him a money order and then it will ship when he gets the payment.


        • BD, I’ve been out for a while…what type of hipac issues are you having? I have two guns with hipac, and the first kit I ordered seemed to be much better quality than my most recent purchase. I think they sold me an older kit the second time around. I wonder if he sold out of all of the newer ones after we started talikn’ about it on this blog(?)…

          • DS
            There are two versions of hipacs out there and I don’t know which is the newer version or older one. One has fine threads where the extensions and the foster fitting end threads into the part that fits in the 2240 tube and the other has coarse threads at all the joints and only the part that threads into the 2240 tube are fine threads. The ones I got are coarse threads and on the female ends of the foster fitting tube and adjoining extension’s there is no relief cut for the o-ring to be captured in and allow the two cylinders to screw completely together without trying to squeeze the o-ring out between the joint and the two tubes do not fit completely flush against each other. So when I went to 3k psi the cylinders held pressure overnight and the next morning while I was putting the gun back together I watched the o-ring between the foster tube and the first extension slowly be pushed up and out between the joint and all air was lost. when I took it back apart you can see where the threads on the female ends go completely to the end of the tube with no relief or backcut in the thread to allow for the o-ring to be captured by the two halves of the tubes. if I take the O-rings off the male end of the tubes there is a flat relief cut in the tube for the o-ring to sit in and if you take the o-ring off the male end and then thread the tubes together they will thread completely together with no gap or visible seam in the joint. The fine thread versions have some what of a relief or backcut of the threads in the female side that allows the tubes to thread together better, I cannot say perfectly because I do not have one of those sets to verify it but GF has the fine thread set that he ordered maybe a week before me and he checked his for me and said that they had a partial relief cut but still not as much as he would expect to see in a joint of that design that is made to capture an o-ring and hold 3k psi in, he luckily has had no issue yet.

            I contacted The person selling these items ( I will not acknowledge his name as he is not worth the time of day ) about the issue I found and was experiencing and he stated that I did not know what I was talking about and that it must have been and bad batch but had not heard of any other issue in the 4 years he has been selling them. We went back and forth and I asked for him to swap out my coarse thread tubes for the fine thread sets that he said would be in stock in a couple weeks, I first said I would fix the issue myself until he said that there were fine and coarse thread versions and he said he would try to fix mine and if not he would replace them but that I did not have the right to request or demand that they be swapped for the fine thread versions. I feel that it is my money I am giving him and that give me the right to request which version I would like to purchase.

            Any way I will not send my parts back to someone that does not have a clue as to how an o-ring has to be captured between two pieces of tube in order for it to create a leak proof joint.

            I had other issues but they were of no big concern as I solved them easily. but if I had known that they were as poorly designed as I have come to find out I would never have wasted my money on them. They will get fixed correctly and be a much better product than he could ever design.

            I did not mean to put all this out there for everyone to read but when another blogger ask for some information they will get what I can give them freely and I only hope that it helps someone else not run into the issues I did as they may not have the means or knowledge to correct the issue themselves.

            Well I do feel better now anyway. Sorry to lay it out there all on you DS but you asked and you shall receive.


  4. Good idea to keep A log. Today’s entry would be as follows: could not get my new Stoeger X20S .22cal to group shots. Very unpredictable. Took apart the suppressor to look at the baffles. Saw that they were slightly out of round and nicked up. Pellets were nipping the baffles! Used a reaming tool to ever so slightly round and smooth the pass
    through. Problem solved. Got great groups now.

  5. Hello BB and Fellow Airgunners
    A most timely and relevant blog for the weekend. Timely in that I recently started keeping a rudimentary log on 6 of my favourite air guns. These are the 6 of 15 I covet, and shoot the most often, I started storing info on my home computer, and a few months in, my computer gives up the ghost with all records lost. I then revert to using a good old journal type log, with a pencil just incase I need to erase some erroneous piece of data. I suppose an iPad or similar devise would work nicely too. Nice and portable for use at the range, however pencil and paper fill the bill just as well with zero batteries needing a charge. And, no hard drive to suddenly dying on me.
    I hope everyone attending the inaugural Ft. Worth Airgun Show, has a great time. I wish I had the ways and means to attend this year, however I will be satisfied with plenty of pictures and a short write-up. This looks like the beginning of something great based on the names of people and companies attending.

  6. LOL! Yesterday, the thought once again entered my head that I should keep a log at work of the systems I design. This would allow me to be able to more quickly reference past systems that are similar to what I am designing at the moment.

    I can definitely see where keeping a log is a most useful tool in more than one discipline. The primary issue with such is as you stated, having the discipline to do such. Beginning and keeping a shooting log for your airguns is perhaps an excellent way to train yourself to have the discipline to do what is necessary in other areas of your life.

    Why is it we always figure out these kind of things when we are fat, bald, burned out geezers instead of when we were young bucks?

  7. The show sounds like it will be epic! I wish I could go, but I’ll be here in California working. I can’t wsit to see the write-up. We’re supposed to have one here in 2015 but I don’t think it will hold a candle to tomorrow’s event. As for log books, I have written about 20 entries on the box that my chrony came in…does that count?

  8. I’m on the lookout for a Trapper notebook and a folding clipboard. I have a standard loose-leaf notebook and clipboard that I had just started using prior to my hospitalization. Wind as always a problem as well as the amount of space an open notebook can take up. The clipboard takes up less than half the space the notebook did and a tin full of pellets makes a good paperweight in low wind Only, There’s no fun to be found in taking time outta your target session to pick up 300 pellets while the sunlight dwindles and with 40 mph wind gusts(third day in a row now) a notebook will flip open in a heartbeat, snatching out your valuable information one page at a time.when I returned my clipboard was on my shooting bench along with the most interesting targets from my 953 testing(April showers?).My notebook was inside being safely guarded by a fresh litter of puppies. Lessons learned!

  9. B.B.,

    I was hunting with a friend when he passed me a handful of .375 H&H cartridges for a rifle I sold him years before. Holding them in my hand, I recognized them as my handloads, but I could not remember the powder charge. That was a long time ago, and I’m now on my third notebook.

    Keeping a log keeps me honest. Just as your 1962 dime stares as unblinkingly witness to the accuracy of hundreds of airguns, my log keeps me from boasting of unachieved accuracy and velocity.

    And its interesting to me how my log has recorded drifting interests between antique sporting guns, Colt SAAs and 1911s, muzzleloaders, archery, and how air rifles so suddenly took over several years ago.

    And there are notes, too, of good friends and rifles, and days at the range and in the field. It is never too late to start keeping a log.

    I’m glad you’ve come to terms with your Ballard. After reading Venturino’s and Matthew’s books, and my own experience with a Shiloh Sharps (a good logbook goes well with a good library and chronograph), I had thought your wonderful antique Ballard was performing very well.

    I share your thoughts about AR-15s. I’ve had some significant moments with an M4 and 5.56, and I own an accurate, heavy-barreled AR, but I never trusted or warmed to any of them.

    Unfortunately, I won’t be writing any notes about this weekend’s air gun show. I sincerely hoped to be there to meet you and others, but I cannot. I look forward to reading your reports about it.


    • RB,

      You know — I forgot to mention that this blog has become a logbook for me, as well. You pointed that out.

      My AR is also a heavy barreled model, chambered for .223 instead of 5.56 or the compromise chamber. I think that makes a difference.


      • I just had to search this blog for my own 953 velocities prior to removing it’s debouncer and found that that mod alone did not raise it,I think a lighter exhaust valve spring and opening the transfer port is gonna bet the ticket. I had written them down in a note pad but somehow it disappeared, Time to get back to using the notebook!


        • Reb
          I don’t know if opening up the transfer port will help all that much as I opened mine in the 853 from 1/8 inch to 5/32 inch and did not see any real gain, I actually found a piece of plastic tube that was 5/32 OD and 1/8 ID and installed it back in to the port between the valve pocket and the barrel and chronyed the gun both ways and it only gained about 15 fps. So it did not make that much difference in my 853, I can’t say for sure on your 953 though. If the hammer is not sitting flush against the front of the casting where the valve stem sticks out then you either need a stronger hammer spring or a lighter valve spring. it would be better to put a spacer or nut or something up inside the hammer to increase the hammer spring tension than it would be to lighten the valve spring because with a lighter valve spring the valve may not seal correctly if the spring is to light. A heavier hammer spring will not affect valve sealing as it will be in the cocked position when pumping the gun at least that is the way mine works in that you have to cock the gun first before you can pump it because the hammer is holding the valve open until cocked. If your 953 has that big dish in the front of the piston that you stated earlier when we were talking that will give you the most gain is to fill it in if you have not already done so. My 853 has a flat piston and while having it apart yesterday to do the trigger mod and open the transfer port up I checked again and if you pull the lever rotation pin out with the lever just popped out of the latch you cannot push the piston any farther against the valve as it is already touching it. So mine is shooting right at 495 to 500 fps consistently and that is all she is going to do.


          • As I was trying to squeeze everything back together the last time,I told myself I’d have an even harder time if I shimmed the hammer spring.I don’t think there’s room! Daisy has everything tightly crammed into as compact a package as they could cram it all together on this model! I’m still trying to figure out why they lowered the compression on it by dishin’ the piston? I guess plastic is getting too expensive too 😉 . ‘Cuz that’s what mine’s made of. Mine takes a pump without cocking it and has held one for over a month! I didn’t realize I’d left it loaded til the pellet was already flattened and bouncing back up about head height off the living room rug. I’m still considering cutting back the piston enough to build another check valve so it’ll hold more than one pump. That may be the best route to wring more power outta these guns. If it can be done on a P-1, why not?


            • Reb
              My piston is plastic also but does not have the dish in it, so I don’t know why they dished the pistons on the 953s. On my hammer spring I put an old valve spring and a thin washer for the two springs to sit against and it is just enough extra to keep the hammer tight against the valve and hold it open until cocked.

              It is a handful to get back together with two good hands so I can understand how you feel with only one good hand.

              I don’t know what you are talking about doing to make it a multi pumper. I would be interested in that modification myself.


              • This is all I’ve been able to find on the x53 to multi pump mod;http://www.scribd.com/doc/53711415/Daisy-953-853-752-Increase-Power I’ve tried to see the rest without a credit card, No cigar.
                But there’s a really good one for the P-1. That’s where I got the idea from.
                http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1305736542/Beeman+P-17+multi-stroke+finished This is the basic concept
                Like I said, it’ll prolly be a while before I go into it again but I’m studyin’ up for when I do. I don’t know if I’d want that plug blowing out with 3 pumps in it though. Lemme know what you think of this material when you get done checking it out and we’ll go from there.


              • I just posted a reply here with 2 links for multi pump mods but I went back to the top of the blog instead of seeing it posted so I came searching for it.I’ll try to post the last one now
                Edith, one of the links goes to Scribed, with an option to download.I think that may be the problem.There is some valuable information in both of them. Could you please check the spam folder and if it needs editing, do what you have to do to get it posted here? Pretty Please?


                • Reb
                  That is pretty cool modification you found there and it does appear to be done with an Avanti series gun. I actually have some of the pieces like the check valve and springs already.

                  That will be a future project once I get all my others caught up and finished.

                  Thanks for the info.


                  • Awesome! keep me informed I’ll send the other one to your e-mail.
                    If you don’t have a Scribed account you’ll probably have to start one to see past page 1.
                    Please, show me what you mean about the Avanti.

                    • Reb
                      I was meaning the Avanti series guns as being the 753, 853, 953, 887, 888 as these are all Daisy Avanti target series of guns.

                      I meant to say that it appears that it could be done to the Avanti series of guns.
                      I will be looking for the email in my inbox, but do not know what a scribed account is so I will wait till I get the email and let you know if I need help getting it to open,


                    • Reb
                      I got your email and I cannot get to the second page either and it looks like a scribed account is a social media account like facebook which I want nothing to do with so I will search for daisy 880 schematics and see what the difference between the 7, 8, 953 series is and the 880 that makes it a multi pump.

                      I don’t think 3 pumps with the long arm of an Avanti series would be that difficult as I think the 880 has basically the same arm so it may be just an easy swap of the valve components between the two guns.

                      I will dig up a schematic and see what the differences are and let you know.


                    • Reb
                      I think my reply went to spam so here it is again.

                      The 880 and 7,8 ,953 series I believe share the same pump arm so it may only be a simple swap of valve and piston components to make the Avanti’s into multi pumpers.

                      I will research it and let you know what I find. I have an old 840 that I got at a garage sale for 5 buck that I went thru and got to shoot ok. It is way under powered but I may be able to use parts from it to make a multi pumper from the two guns.


                    • Reb
                      On a Daisy I do not know but the crosman 22xx series do not so I would think that the daisy’s don’t either. One is not needed because the pressure is contained in the CO2 cartridge and all you need is a seal to keep the valve pressurized from the cartridge.


  10. BB : On your Hornet ,I see you have used a CCI 200 primer for the load used to shoot that group, Isn’t that a large rifle primer, the small being the CCI 400? I have found that the Hornet is a VERY fussy cartridge to reload for, and I use small pistol primers in some loads. BTW, I think you may have too high of expatations for your HW 52 as well. IMO, you shot a very(10 shots , no less!) good group there for a light barreled SS sporting rifle. The Hornet is at best only a 175 yard gun on game , It’s best feature is that it doesn’t tear up the fur , or make as much noise. An asset here behind enemy lines, AR’s are forbidden here, and regulated heavily.

    • Robert,

      Oh, don’t burden me with facts! I want what I want!

      I may have gotten the primer number wrong. And I have used small pistol primers, too, but they didn’t seem to do any better.

      Speak comforts to me, for I am disappointed that life isn’t turning out exactly as I want.


      • BB; I thought I was speaking nice , I said I thought you shot a very good group with your Hornet. Anyways , if you want to find some old school. small rifle/ cartridge 22 cal . love, ditch the Hornet and get a nice old .218 Bee SS, or re-chamber the HW. I have only one Hornet left, and found that the Bee shoots rings around anything in ,22 Hornet, AND! it can use a heavier bullet and still get 50 more yards of useful range, It will also do much better than the Hornet with cast bullets, which in my opinion are a waste of time with the Hornet.

        • PS, Good luck with the show , I wish I could go and meet you , but I still have 30 more miles of tunneling to go before I reach the PA border… Looking foward to the pictures on the show and the articles, take care.

          • Tom I’m probably missing something so I figure I might as well ask. What’s wrong with the Hornet? It looks like you’re getting 10 shot, 100 yard groups that are in the 1-inch to 1.5 inch range. Is it supposed to do better than that, or are you just hoping for better?

            The reason I ask is that while those groups may not put you in the President’s 100 at Camp Perry, but they’re certainly good enough to stop a fox/possum/raccoon visiting the chicken coop out to 150 yards or so.


  11. Tom,

    I haven’t been keeping a log, but after reading this, I’ll begin doing so. I have kept MANY well-labeled targets, however, and every time I take out some old ones and look them over, it provides unexpected information to me.

    But a well-organized log is a better idea, clearly. I will make it a digital log, so that scanned or photographed targets can easily be dropped in.


  12. My “Log Book” is a 3 ring binder that says on the cover “Details About Kevins Guns”.

    For airguns I preprinted and copied sheets that have headings in the margin, favorite pellet, velocity/fpe, notes, value, etc.

    In “notes” I narrate what has been done to the gun. Most of my guns have been tuned. Many tuners provide evidence of their tunes. I have a heavy duty, plastic zip loc type insert that is made for 3 rings binders at the back of this book. I place the tuner cards/evidence and chrony strings in this zip loc.

    I think the most important part of this 3 ring binder are details on what was done to the gun and what the VALUE is. If something happens to me the person that must sell my guns for my estate has a good starting point with this 3 ring binder in their hands.


  13. BB,
    When I read the title of today’s blog I got a different idea than what you explained.

    I really need to keep a log book of my airguns starting with when I bought them, who I bought them from, what I paid for them, and what if any work had been done previously to the gun and any work I have done on the gun.

    See you in the morning,

    David Enoch

  14. BB, When I bought my first co2 rifle ( Daisy m14, 1year ago@), I bought 60
    crosman co2 cylinders from a big box store. A few months later I bought a large number of Crosman cylinders at a gun show (loose, not in crosman boxes). I made the mistake of putting all of my cylinders in a large open box. Now I often get a low number of shots from some cylinders. That’s why I have jams in my 1077 ( sometimes on the second mag., less than 24 shots). On one of your reports you mentioned Crosman reject co2 cylinders. Does crosman still give away (or sell) these cylinders? It would explain the low price and the problem that I have. What should a full cylinder weigh? I am going to weigh some of my cylinders and see if there is a weight difference. Ed

    • Ed,

      I don’t know if they still give away CO2 cartridges that don’t pass their weight test on the line, but they used to give them to official repair stations. I have used these cartridges for years and never got a bad one.

      Are you sure your cartridges don’t have the old bottlecap on them? Those did leak down.


  15. I’ve always kept firearm logs so it was natural to continue when I picked up airgunning. But handwritten paper logs? Phooey!
    Until they come up with a good program written specifically for what we want I’ll continue to use Excel. The Prochrono plugs right into the laptop making data transfers a breeze and digi pics eliminate having to store piles of shot-up targets.
    Technology man, keep up or get left behind!

  16. I couldn’t agree more with you on this advice B.B. I also neglected this for way to long and started filling a file cabinet a few years ago. After logging data and filing targets for awhile I noticed a few unforeseen benefits. Using fresh targets instead of used targets from the trash, a dot on blank paper, marking previous holes on a target that’s riddled with holes and other such truck. Second I became much more aware of my bad habits and diagnose the problem far sooner when they rear their head. Third I now thoroughly test alot of details such as terminal ballistics where before I might have ran a half hazard test out of curiosity at best.
    One detail I adapted early on and enjoy studying is I note the condition of myself at the top of every page(really angry, happy, hurting from sickness or injury etc.). Excellent advice Tom, right up there with physical conditioning for sound advice on achieving top marksmanship.

  17. Off topic question. How does people make those nice holes in paper?
    I have tried with all kinds of pellet shapes and not even with wadcutters was I successful.
    I tried with standard printer paper, and then with paper targets from pyramyd air.
    I tried with my 392, a gamo delta (low power) and a high power spring piston (the high power was bouncing on the trap and producing double holes).
    I tried at 12 yards and at 25 yards.
    The best results were with special paper targets, wadcutters, low power rifle, I forgot the distance (I guess another reason to keep a log). But even then nothing like what is shown here ever.
    Some tips please. Sighting is a drag when all you got is a tear and you are not sure were it originated and backyard competition shooting is impossible like that.

    • Gerardo,I have found that if the target paper is touching the backstop it will not cut that nice hole.My target stop is about two inches from my target paper.Seems if the target paper is touching the backstop that the holes will be sloppy and not cut neatly.Now if you don’t get pretty cut circles from wad cutters and you have some distance from the paper to the stop,well you got me?And last if my targets to close to the steel plate the target paper gets blasted but tiny little bits of lead shrapnel as they burst and pancake when hitting so fast.Hope this helps.

        • Good luck with it! I usually have mine free hanging attached with magnets from the top of the(or side actually)old filing cabinet I have mounted on it’s side to the top an old stump. My bench is @ 10m and if I stand out front by the mailbox it’s 75 yards( don’t do that much,school zone) I don’t really have any problems until about 30 yards or it’s windy.


    • Gerardo,

      Welcome to the blog!

      First, I always use targets printed on target paper. It is special for this purpose and makes the best holes.

      Next, I tape the target s to a stiff cardboard backer. So when the paper it hit, the cardboard resists tearing. Give those ideas a try.


  18. BB, I have 3 bottleneck co2 cartridges, left over from 1954. I had 4, but last June I loaded it into one of my crosman pistols and got 10 shots out of it. The cartridges are identical to current crosman s, but occasionally I get one that does not have a full 12 grams of co2 in it. Most of my cartridges give me 48-55 shots in my 1077 and 120-155 shots in my Daisy M14. I will no longer buy “bulk”, no box cartridges at gun shows. Ed

  19. I, too keep logs on all my air guns. I started when I started reading this blog so many years ago. My log starts with when I acquired the airgun and includes name of former owner, where it was purchased, price and date. It then goes on to list the favorite pellet(s) with targets to back that up and chrono data on each of the pellets. I use my kids’ unused spiral notebooks that they never seemed to use more than a few pages of (unlike my notebooks – how did they get the decent grades they got?) in their college classes? Oh, that’s right – neither of them were engineering students or science majors.

    What I don’t keep logs of are my firearms, even though I re-load. Guess it’s time to start. Now how much did I pay for that High Standard Victor back in 1977?

    Fred DPRoNJ

  20. A log is well worth it. I started years ago just so I could remember what my zeros were on different guns. Later I noticed that there was lots of other information worth saving.


  21. Today is a red letter day. I finally got hold of a Baikal MP 514 K. It took me 9 years to hunt down this cool little Russian. I don’t know that much about it as of yet but I do like the looks of it. I’ll be getting acquainted with this unusual looking gun soon. Thank God this hunt is over and my “unicorn” is captured finally.

  22. Speaking of IZH, anybody here own a drozd blackbird? I saw the whole Ukraine crisis unfolding and figured there’d be an embargo. Mine’s one of the most entertaining things I’ve ever owned. Scoop ’em up while you can!

  23. No apologies necessary! That sounds pretty consistent with my experience. My first order was for my 2400kt, and I got the fine-threads version. This one still allowed the o-rings between the extensions/hipac tubes to migrate, until I replaced the seals and snugged the parts up with pliers. The second set is coarse threads for my 2240 and seems to fit together lousy. I have three extensions, and it looks like a banana. After changing out the seals and plier-snugging the second one, it holds air too. However, I tuned my guns for 2,000 psi. I don’t think I’d trust the coarse thread kit up to 3k psi…
    Sorry you had such a lousy experience with your kit, but when you get it fixed yourself, it will be that much better!

    • DS
      I also tighten mine down with pliers but it still squeezed the o-ring out. but what is strange is that it held the 3k all night long until I started to put the gun back together almost as if me moving the tube around just a little bit was enough to open the gap for the o-ring to squeeze out. I am going to cut about half to 3/4 of the thread from the leading edge of the female tubes so that the o-ring will be captured on both sides by the 2 tubes and allow the tubes to thread completely flush and square so that it does not look like a banana as you aptly put it.
      Mine held at 2k fine and I shot the 22 cal one for days at 2k with no issues, it was only when I went to 3k that the leaks developed. I have replaced the black seal at the valve with a black nylon plastic washer from a hardware store, but to do so I had to expand the rolled edge on the front of the valve to get the washer to fit in the valve and that fixed the black washer from blowing out of the valve ( one of the minor issues I mentioned ). I also drilled two hole into either side of the tube and into the valve and installed grade 8 screws thru the tube into the valve to add extra support for the valve so I can tighten the hipac into the valve very tight and no leaks from there anymore. so once I get the threads machined out they will be leak proof and I will feel safe at 3k with them.

      His comment that no one else has had any issues has just been debunked by you and who knows how many more people out there that have not said anything or contacted him. Don’t waste your time because he does not care once he has your money.


    • DS also, if you decide to put that black spring in the gun to make the hammer hit harder you will not be able to cock the gun without it feeling like the bolt arm is going to break off. I could not get mine to move back far enough to engage the sear on the hammer without being afraid the bolt arm was going to break.

      I put a adjustable end cap on with springs I got off of ebay and it work just fine with them, the black spring is way to strong for these guns.


      • Luckily, I haven’t had to dig into the fill port valve on either of mine, but it sounds like you’ve worked out how you’re going to fix yours. Both of my guns have 2300s power adjusters, and the dampner’s O.D. is too large to fit inside that black spring, so I used an alliance hobby “power spring” on each. The black one seems like over kill for the bolt, so I never felt good about trying it anyway.Pinning your valve is a good idea with your 3k psi goals. I cant wait to hear how many fpe it puts out once your up-n-runnin’!

        • DS
          The power springs I got I think are from Alliance hobby also I don’t remember for sure I just know I got them off ebay and I have bought from Alliance before. He has some good stuff and is easy to deal with unlike some others we know.

          Trust me you would not have liked the black spring as I said it is way to stiff. My power adjuster are from a Prod and I had to put the top hole for the breech hold down in them. I should have got the ones for a 2300 or 1701 but did not look at the schematics close enough, but with some slight mods the Prods work fine.

          My valve to hipac seal repair is already done on the 22 cal one and it will be on the 177 I am building also as I just feel that the hard plastic washer is a better design for that particular type of sealing situation than rubber at the 3k pressure I am going to be using.

          I did not trust the one screw in the bottom of the valve and that fact that the valve moves in the tube due to the hole being bigger than the head of the screw was not acceptable either, so I made a bushing that takes up the clearance around the head of the screw and keeps the transfer port centered in the top side of the tube to align with the barrel perfectly and then two screws on either side of the tube into the valve will keep it in place at the 3k pressure.

          I am very anal when it comes to fitment and things having to be perfect and up to my standards.

          I will let you know how it does when I get them both up and runnin.


          • buldawg
            I still wish I new what your hi-pac looks like. If you have it a part why don’t you txt me a picture of it. That’s a shame that thing has been a problem. Its a cool little deal if you like HPA. And with all the mods available for the 2240’s.

            You know the conversation we had about mine which is the fine thread version. Mine still has the factory orange seal and remember I tested it to 3000 psi for you so we could see what happens. Then I played around with the fill pressure to get the right fill pressure for the aftermarket spring I have in mine. Which ended up being 2600 psi. I did take and fill it to about 3000 psi with the hand pump which is a little more controllable fill rate then my bottles. And I shot about 3 fills through the gun at 3000 psi. Then determined I got the best shot groups at 2600 psi. Well that’s the way I shot it for 3 more fills and still holding.

            Like I said I would like to see a picture of yours to see how it was different from the ones I got. Obviously something is different between the ones you have and the ones I have. And if they show not concentric when they screw together that will be a big problem. the ones I have are true as can be. If they ain’t concentric you ain’t going to be able to do anything about them.

          • In this capacity, anal retentiveness is a good trait! I too was perplexed by the amount of slop inherent in the valve retaining screw design. I figured that the engineers established that after plenty of r&d and education that I can’t even fathom, so I took a blind leap of faith. There’s no way I’d ever pump it up to 3k like that though…

            • DS
              I have no engineering degree or even college education, just 18 months of auto and diesel trade school training in 1974/5. But I do have 45 years experience in repairing anything that rolls on two or four wheels and have been an ASE certified master technician since 1977 and have been to more training schools for GM and Harley -Davidson than I can begin to count. I worked in Harley research and development at the test facility here in Alabama next to Talladega super speedway for 11 years as a durability technician and my job was to inspect diagnosis and repair the durability fleet of motorcycles that the riders would test ride to create failures and induce stresses greater than any average rider would ever put their own bike through. I worked in unison and with engineers to document and suggest required steps needed to repair and/or correct issues that were created during testing.

              So although I have no formal education in engineering I do have 45 years of highly qualified experience which in the real world is worth way more than any college education can give you. So I do know how parts should and need to fit together to work properly and safely.

              That is what my statements about his design are based on and he can tell me anything he wants to but I know what is the correct way for a joint between two pieces of tubing should be designed to seal and work correctly and it is not like the hipac is designed that is for sure.


              • I couldn’t agree with you more. Hopefully I didn’t misconstrue my statements to offend you. Education is one thing, but experience is golden. It takes someone with your type of background to safely soup one of these things up to 3k psi…that’s why I’m stickin with 2k. However, with my experience/education I only delve so deep. I know it’s common practice to pin these valves when you go big, so I’d do the same thing if I had the resources.

                • Ds
                  You did not offend me in anyway with your statements and I hope my reply did not offend you either. I was merely informing you as to why I do not agree with statements made to me by the seller of the hipac units and giving you some knowledge of why I disagree with him and his design by telling you my background history so that you would understand that what I say is not unjustified or from lack of experience in dealing with more highly complex design’s and systems than the simple principles involved in the design of the hipac systems. I was a Cadillac master technician from 83 till 98 when I went to work at Harley and the systems in the 98 Cadillac’s are way beyond the simple hipac and I could diagnosis any problem with a Cadillac from the front bumper to the back and actually specialized in the electronic systems and drivability.

                  So it is all good and with a little time at my buddies machine shop the hipacs will be better than new and be ready to start assembly and tuning by end of next week.


    • I went to their site to see the difference between the coarse and fine thread versions and couldn’t even find where I was supposed to pick which one I wanted much less a comparison or pro’s and cons of each. I will try again but, Help!

        • I know I would be upset if it didn’t work as advertised out of the box! I’m not in the market for a long term project. I’m into my 5th month and still don’t even have a gun to mount it to.

          • The coarse threaded versions lack the relief for the oring to seat in between parts. Also, with coarse threads there is less surface area of engagement, so the two mated parts wobble around noticeably more before they are completely snugged down. Finally, the coarser threads intersect the axis of the tubes at a much more oblique angle, so the banana effect is more more pronounced.

      • Reb
        He has recently changed his website look and content with much less information available I believe to keep the more knowledgeable air gun tuners from realizing that his design has flaws in it and does not want that to be known. it is indeed hard to find any real info other than what he sells and what is supposed to fit. You need to go to section 6 and 7 to see what you need for whichever gun you are building and the required number of extensions you want for you conversion.

        Be forewarned according to him you do not have the right to request which thread version you want to purchase, it is solely his decision as he made it very clear to me of that fact. So if you are willing to give him your money it is buyer beware,


  24. Robert and BB,

    I have long considered acquiring a .22 Hornet, my rationale being that I could work up a load that would provide me with sufficient accuracy to insure a head shot at 100 yards (1 MOA) and have sufficient energy to penetrate into and possibly through a deer skull at that range, yet also work up a subsonic load that would be suitable for small game.

    BB’s target shows that his load is almost there for the long range shooting and actually would be acceptable as in reality, it I almost impossible to shoot 100 yards in the woods around here.

    I guess my question is have you gentlemen tried a low powered load for the .22 Hornet and if so, how did it perform?

    If you have not figured out where I am going with this, my goal is to have one rifle that has reloadable cartridges that can be used to take both small and larger game.

    By the way BB, many, many years ago I owned a XP100. The .221 Fireball is an excellent cartridge. Did you know it started out life as a machine pistol cartridge?

    • RR,

      I have tried a reduced load for the Hornet. It was actually quite good at 50 yards, putting 10 into an inch. I have an old Savage whose bore is .223 instead of .224, and that’s the rifle I tried the load it.

      No, I was unaware the .221 Fireball cartridge had another life!


      • During the Vietnam War, the US Navy wanted a compact automatic weapon for their flight crews. A machine pistol of bull pup design was developed that had the pistol grip and trigger assembly on the barrel assembly and the action would lay along the inner forearm. It would hang from a lanyard that you would adjust to be taught when you pointed it like a pistol. The barrel assembly would swivel so as to allow it to be used either left or right handed.

        They developed the cartridge for it by chopping down the .223/5.56 Nato, allowing a flight crew to carry more ammo and also less recoil to deal with.

        In recent years I have seen a semi automatic version on the market.

        I can see where this cartridge would make a very nice little carbine.

  25. Say it ain’t so Tom! I guess I need a stiff drink. So sad to hear about the Baikals not going to be imported any longer. I remember taking you advice Tom so years ago and getting the “Little Black Russian”. A serious love affair developed. I then found a Steel breech 60, and later a Izh 46. (Regrettably sold the 46). I love these airguns! Last week, I took your advice and received the IZH 53m and love it, even more than my HW70a.Thanks again for that one. Well, when I saw the news yesterday, I quickly ordered another 61. I need another drink, what is going on with the world TOM?

    Ps, I did not know that you can get a nitro piston for the IZH. Saw on on images and then another forum. Have to check that one out.

    • You probably should have ordered a 46M. I bought my Izzy back in 2009 for $300. They are now $600. Before too long they will be worth as much as the FWB 100 series. I am seriously thinking of another one myself.

  26. Another great post, with great information and advice. When I put together the Winchester MP4 blog, I had to track everything pretty carefully. I noticed a lot of things that I would never have picked up on during routine shooting. You’ve created a logger!

  27. Buldawg,
    It’s been a long time since I’ve been into a 880 but the compression tube and valve face are much smaller in diameter than the x53’s. I think the 880 uses a cup seal as it’s check valve(some kid named David corrected me on this one evening here on the blog, very humbling!). If the 880 still had a metal pump arm I’d just go that route( the plastic one bends so much that it has even poped open and has to be held shut when over pumping it) and I’m open to getting one of the 22sSG’s or metal receiver/lever 880’s, if I can find an affordable one when I have the money to spend on one.


    • Reb
      I was not aware that the 880 was a smaller dia piston. I have not had a chance to do any research into the differences between the two guns so I will take your word that they are different. My 840 has a shorter stroke than the 853 so it may be possible to use an 840 Piston in the 853 and make a check valve setup like in the p-17 thread to make up the difference in the space with the shorter piston.

      What do you mean by a 22sSGs

      When I get a chance I will look at my 840s setup and let you know, but it will be a while


      • I have seen these guns advertised with metal pump levers but can find no evidence of that so here’s some video to the contrary.
        https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CGEQtwIwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCO82J0Qxgrk&ei=RWgMVL7CEean8gHd2ID4Dg&usg=AFQjCNGUaSmwd5lryJiDS92SnNGt5U0D5Q&sig2=KsX1AfEcDmoCZL_3Zg-ErA I do remember seeing 880’s in the late ’70’s that appeared to be metal but I was a kid. If you find one with a metal pump lever, I’d snatch it up or it would probably be the last time someone lets go of one. Even the early 880’s have metal receivers, which helps immensely for tuning them. The plastic on the current crop doesn’t like repeated disassembly. And look at that, Wood!


        • Reb
          I never knew about the 822 as a kid I was a crosman owner and my 1400 at 8 pumps stock would put that daisy to shame as I have killed so many squirrels, rabbits and raccoons with my 1400 that I cannot count them. It would shoot in the 700s at 8 pumps and at ten it was in the low 8s.

          But I think a X53 models with a multi pump setup would definitely out do the 822 or even a 880. My 853s pump arm is metal although it is pot metal it is still metal and I am thinking that the 840 series of daisy’s have the same dis piston as the x53s but that it is shorter in length so it would allow the room to put a check valve set up in the air chamber to make it a multi pumper. I have a 840 so when I get a chance I will measure the piston dia and length to see and let you know.


      • buldawg and Reb
        There is something else I did to my 953 that may of helped my gun work with the transfer port being opened up. The spring that is behind the poppet valve that stores the compressed air. I actually stretched that so it would hold the valve closed better. My gun was leaking air through the barrel when I tried pumping the gun sometimes. So it may of accidentally helped the gun. Just thought i would throw that out there.

        • Gunfun
          Already been done and mine will hold air for days without leaking and have done every thing I can think of and that you have told me but 500 fps is all it will do. I tested the opening of the transfer port change by chronying it with the port opened up and then made a plastic tube to put back in the port to bring it back to the original diameter and there was only a 10 to 12 fps difference. So it is back to opened transfer port; flat piston that touches the valve face, stronger valve spring and hammer spring that holds valve open until cocked so that it is a full dump firing cycle. if I have missed anything let me know but I don’t think I have, it is a tack driver at 10 meters. At the CMP range it will hit in the 10s every time and a perfect shot is 10.9 so anything in the 10s is a .250 dia group.


          • buldawg
            What pellet did you use? I’m pretty sure I was using the 8.3 grn. Superdomes without going out and looking. I was getting high 500’s. Around 570 or so. Im pretty sure I didn’t hit the 600’s.

            • Gunfun
              They were the H&N diabolo sport wadcutters at 7.5 gr so they were lighter than the ones you used. I thought the last time I chronyed the 853 it was up around the 550 to 570s also but I did not keep a log so I cannot remember. Just the right blog to not have kept a logbook huh.


  28. B.B.,
    I’m afraid I overdid it oiling my QB-36 today. It overflowed the transfer port before I realized it. I was already gonna let it rest and soak in for a couple days. May I need to set it in any other position than on the butt pad?


  29. I can’t believe it! Tucked into the end of the post although previewed at the beginning is a notice that IZH rifles will no longer be available. My nightmare comes true! Fortunately, I bought an extra IZH 61 awhile ago, but getting cut off from the source gives me the creeps. Hopefully, these sanctions will go away. Ironically enough, I had written off the Saiga rifle some time ago but what do I see in a local ad but an ad for a Saiga in California. The hoarding temptations are strong but I will resist.

    I would think that keeping a log would be easy after reloading which does requires accurate records. Besides, it’s a little ironic that a master blogger dislikes the idea of a log. Actually, I have never liked the idea of logs and journals myself but in my more mature phase, I have changed my mind. I keep a reloading log and a log for workouts as I pursue Janet Evans’ plan on the path to swimming greatness. She says that a log is a non-negotiable requirement for swimming training. Her descriptions and some of those in the blog remind me of descriptions of army intelligence work. Apparently, this involved keeping a card file of different kinds of information that could be analyzed for patterns. The technology has changed but not the principles.

    I think we have signs of an epic struggle in the statement about disliking the AR platform but keeping a particular copy for life–especially from such an active trader in guns. Clint Fowler said much the same when he wrote: “At first, I did not think much of this gun [AR], but the little sucker can shoot.”

    RidgeRunner, interesting point about CO2 guns. I’ve known that the performance goes down when the temperature drops into the 50s Fahrenheit. I had supposed that things just got better the warmer it got, but now I wonder if anyone has looked at an optimum temperature. Is there such a value or does it just get better with more heat.

    I’m still battling my cardboard boxes in the process of unpacking. It’s slow going. Even when empty, they trip you up underfoot, hem you in and exhaust you while unpacking until you want to quit, sort of like quicksand. Another thing working against the establishment of my range is the lighting. I received my LED light and it was awful. What was advertised as natural light was a harsh fluorescent. You guys were so right warning me against the LED. So, that one will be returned. I think I will go with the floor lamps with 150W available locally. The light from those coiled shape bulbs works well and is natural enough for me.


    • Fortunately, I bought an extra IZH 61 awhile ago, but getting cut off from the source gives me the creeps. Hopefully, these sanctions will go away.

      I wouldn’t count on those sanctions going away anytime soon. Putin’s shown no interesting in ending his efforts to destabilize Ukraine via proxies. Until that happens I doubt the sanctions on Russia will be lifted. I’d say its actually more likely that additional sanctions will be imposed. It stinks for fans of IZH airguns, but…

      • I agree. Looking over the IZH guns, I was reminded of the 46M pistol which I had fantasized about having one day. But you’re right that there are other issues. I’ll be glad if we don’t get into a war.


  30. Matt61, I built and raced co2 propelled balsa wood cars circa 1947- 53. They were very popular in Brooklyn, at that time. The official rules forbid heating the co2 cylinders (safety reasons) before inserting them into the cars. We got around those rules by making home made shoulder holsters. Mine held 4 cylinders. After 1 hour, the co2 was at body temp. It gave me an advantage over the kids who used their cylinders out of the box, at room temp. This might be the safe way to warm up the cylinders in cold weather. Of course, we used up the co2 in a few seconds, and a warm cylinder in a cold gun, and cold weather might cool too rapidly for this trick to be effective. However, if you could coat or wrap the cylinder (or the gun) in an insulator, it might be worth trying. Ed

    • Isn’t the theory that heat expands the gas giving it greater pressure? If so what’s to stop the effect as heat increases. Would I be getting extra pop out here in California when it is 110 degrees and my firearms cartridges are too hot to touch?

      Never heard of racing CO2 cars. That reminds me of The Road Warrior where Mad Max is fleeing in his V8 police car and the Lord Humungous pursue him in a dune buggy. With Mad Max retaining distance, Humungous turns the dial on a gas canister and is hurled back against the seat as his car takes off like a rocket and overhauls Max. I believe the gas was some nitrous based-compound. That raises the question of why aren’t more powerful gases used for airguns. Surely compressed air is not the most powerful thing around.


      • It isn’t the pressurization, per se, of nitrous that produces the boost — it is the effect on the air/fuel ratio and charge density in the cylinder.

        The advantage of CO2 for airguns is that the contents of a cartridge are mostly /liquid/ (when new). CO2 has an equilibrium point around 780PSI at room temperature — that is, for as many molecules that evaporate from the liquid to gas, a similar amount will condense from the gas back to liquid. When you fire the airgun, the gaseous state is bled off to propel the pellet — after which more liquid evaporates to fill the canister until the pressure reaches the equilibrium point again.

        The average CO2 gun gets what, around 70 shots per cartridge all at a fairly constant pressure/velocity. To do that with any purely compressed gas would require having a regulator on the feed — and compare the size of a liquid/gas cartridge to the average PCP reservoir.

      • BB
        Good deal can’t wait for the report. But I know I’m going to regret that I didn’t go. I wish I would of held of on the Evanix speed. I would of had money for the trip and some left to get something. And I just kept having that feeling after I got the speed. But that’s another story.

        Anyway I’m rambling on. But glad it turned out good and I will be waiting to see all the cool stuff. 🙂

      • Edith
        All the better if its promoting air guns. I really wish I would of gave some more thought to what I was doing at the time. I could of very easily made the show. That’s what happens when you don’t think.

  31. I’m testing a Baikal MP-514K which I recently got after hunting one for 9 long years. I noticed there is scant little information on these nearly mythical beasts. If you are interested I am getting pictures. chrony readings. a sense of the very unusual shooting characteristics of this gun, testing trigger, learning how everything works. Only things I could find on it are all in Russian which I’m betting almost nobody understands enough of it to understand what is going on. So I’m busy trying to gain information on it that we can understand. My testing is done indoors at 12 feet since that is all I currently have to work with. If you want to know more about this thing let me know. It’s proving to be a very interesting and exotic gun.

    • John
      I first laid eyes on the Bailal MP-514K about 6 years ago when I developed a renewed interest in all things air gun. It was a revelation to me how you could pack all the essential air gun goodies in a nice tight, compact package. I too have been on the lookout for one, however I never held much hope due to the prohibitive Canadian gun laws. I would be nice to own one vicariously through you. Pictures and vital statistics on your gun would be most welcome. 😉

      • From all my testing you should be able to own one. They are well below the 500fps limit of your laws. If there is any interest in it I’ll be happy to do a guest blog on these things.
        I have to work on accuracy though since I don’t have a proper bag rest at the time but it’s clear they have the potential to be very accurate when handled properly.

        • John
          Yes, the velocity figures do work in my favour, however it’s the fact the gun is a bull pup design that has it going against the grain with our gun laws. I’m not sure why as it is ok to possess a pellet pistol and not a bull pup rifle. It is impossible to make sense out of a bureaucrats thought patterns. Our gun laws contain more then a few glaring contradictions that would give any law-biding person a migraine. But I digress, I’ve already been down this road too many times.

          • Yeah. I got the same problem. When these were in production I couldn’t order it because it is 25 inches long, fires pellets and has a rifled barrel. It has to be 26 inches long if it has a rifled barrel otherwise I have to go get a permit and all as if it was a Colt .357. So I had to get it used which took me 9 years to hunt it down. Now that I’ve had time I’ve studied this unicorn a bit, tested it, and figured out a bit of how it works. It seems to like the destroyers ok but I still need to practice with it to get proficient with it enough to present a decent target. I can group them but I have a pellet climb and drop like a breathing control problem. That’s the unusual firing characteristics of this gun. Seems everything you learned about springers you have to throw away and learn it all over again. But maybe at some point I’ll do a guest review of the gun.

              • John
                I would second the guest blog request also as I never knew this little bull pup existed, and some of the laws that keep law abiding citizens from owning a pellet gun seem archaic in their wording and intent.


    • John
      I don’t know if you have a schematic of that Baikal you finally found but if you don’t here is a link that you can download one from, just make sure on the home page that you click the dropdown bar in the upper left middle of the screen to show it in English then click on group 1 and scroll down to the Baikal section and click on the blue higjhlighted 514K link for the schematic



      • I found a video in Russian on taking the gun apart but I won’t need to go that far. I only have a seal or two that ever need replacement in it and I can get to them without ripping the gun apart. I got the thing figured out enough that I understand why it behaves a bit odd when it fires.

          • Actually no. I’m collecting data on the one I own, running it over the chrony, taking pictures of it from every angle, testing the trigger, safety, figuring out how it works, seeing if I can find spare mags for these etc. But since these seem to be so rare and hard to get I’m not about to take it apart and risk not being able to put it back together again. So all my examinations of this gun are non-invasive. This gun is my unicorn….mythical creature impossible to capture. Now that I caught one I’m going to study it, maybe write an article on it. I found there is nothing in English on this gun. Everything I have found on it is in Russian. Not surprising since it is a Russian gun. So seems like something in English is needed on this gun.

            • John
              I understand you not wanting to take it apart because of the rarity of it and parts, but the schematic is in English when you click the translator button on the first page and it will at least let you see how the parts all fit and work together without having to take it apart. It is at least worth downloading the schematic as a resource to put in a logbook or homemade manual of sorts and that is all I was trying to help you with. I was in no way inferring that you should take it apart or tear into it without it being required. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.



  32. Information wanted- I just heard about a Crosman jet line gun model 101. It is supposed to fire co2 cartridges like rockets. Does anyone know anything about this gun? Ed

  33. BB, I just finished weighing co2 cylinders. Here are my results–5 empties averaged 30.65 grams. 20 loaded cylinders- average 42.55 grams (11.9 grams co2.) the lowest cylinder contained 11.14 grams of co2 , The highest contained 13.7 grams of co2. The difference between the highest and lowest amount of co2 is 2.6 grams .What are Crosmans standards for the amount of co2 in their cartridges ? Can you give me the name (or names) of the people at Crosman who can answer my questions? Thank you, Ed

    • Ed,

      You are asking about proprietary information and I doubt that anyone at Crosman is going to give you detailed information. I do know they determine the fill a lot closer than that.

      There is a television segment on how they make CO2 cartridges on “How It’s Made.” See if you can find it.


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