by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Legends M712 full-auto BB pistol
This report covers:
• Here we go!
• The BIG deal!!!
• A full-size replica
• Important note
• Disassembly — don’t do it!
• What I want to see next
• Pyramyd Air Cup
• Airguns excluded from new legislation in California
Here we go!
Many readers have asked me to review this Legends M712 full-auto CO2 BB pistol, and I’m starting today. Because this pistol is so different, there will be full parts 1, 2 and 3.
The pistol I’m testing is the one Paul Capello used for his Airgun Reporter video review. When he sent the pistol to me he left the selector switch on rock ‘n’ roll, so my first squeeze of the trigger sent half the magazine of BBs downrange, and got a request from Edith for a warning before I shot, again.
Let’s back up. When I pulled the pistol out of the box, I immediately noticed it feels as heavy as a firearm. The specs say 3.1 lbs., and on my scale it comes in at 3 lbs., 3 oz. with a CO2 cartridge installed. The outside is all metal except for the grips that look like wood but are actually synthetic. The pistol handles just like a Broomhandle firearm, which means very nose-heavy and ungainly. I owned 2 Broomhandles many years ago, and it’s a feeling you never forget.
The BIG deal!!!
While a beater Broomhandle Mauser C96 firearm in shootable condition costs around $800-1,200, most of us probably don’t have enough disposable cash to buy an M712 firearm. Because it has a selector switch, the firearm is classified as a machine gun under U.S. law, and you’ll pay $200 and wait a long time just to get permission from the government to make a purchase. But that isn’t the problem. Full-auto guns that can be legally transferred in the U.S. have gone off the charts in recent years! You’re likely to pay $12,000-$15,000 or more for one of these M712s today.
And, to be honest, they aren’t practical at all. You certainly wouldn’t want to shoot one full-auto without a shoulder stock if you hoped to hit anything. The Germans called this the Schnellfeuer (fast-fire) pistol, because it shoots so fast you almost can’t hear the individual shots. Watch Paul’s video to see what I mean.
But practicality is not what this is about. Umarex has a killer idea of selling very realistic airguns that mimic the hard-to-find firearms many people desire but will never be able to own. The M712 is one of them — perhaps even the poster-child for the Legends lineup.
A full-size replica
The Legends M712 is a full-sized replica of the Mauser pistol. It measures 12 inches overall, and the barrel takes up 5.50 inches of that. It always looked odd because the magazine is located in front of the triggerguard instead of inside the grip, but remember — this pistol is derived from the C96 Mauser that was one of the first semi-automatic handguns ever made! It was standardized in 1896!
It has a rear sight leaf that adjusts out to 1,000 meters! While there’s no way anyone could expect to hit anything at that distance with this pistol (speaking of the firearm), this sight was designed at a time when modern smokeless powder and jacketed bullets were just beginning to catch on. Like anything new, they were being oversold by their designers, and rifles were typically sighted to 2,000 meters. Handguns like this one were often sighted out to 800 meters and beyond. I’m sure the real shooters of the day knew better, but the fad was so popular that everyone was buying into it.
The rear sight leaf adjusts to 1,000 meters (for the firearm — this is just a copy, and those numbers don’t relate to BB-gun distances). You can also see the selector switch that is set to semiauto here.
While the sights adjust up and down, there’s no provision for windage. In the custom of the times, the guns were thought to be “regulated” by the factory and never need sideways adjustment. We know better today; but in keeping with the historical accuracy of the gun, no windage adjustment is provided.
The M712 has a selector switch on the left side that selects semiautomatic or full-automatic fire. On semi, the pistol fires one time with each trigger-pull. On full-auto, the gun keeps on firing as long as the trigger is depressed. Even after the BBs are gone, the gun continues to fire in the full-auto mode. There’s no bolt hold-open device, so you have to pay attention to when it’s time to reload.
This is a single-action-only gun. The exposed hammer must be cocked in order for the gun to fire. Do that by grasping the ears of the bolt and pulling straight back until it stops — exactly like the firearm but much easier. When the gun fires, the bolt comes back and recocks the hammer until the gas pressure drops too low.
Unlike other single-action semiautomatics, you cannot just cock the hammer manually and fire the gun. When the bolt is pulled back it brings a small connecting rod with it that the hammer has to hit to fire the gun. Just cocking the hammer without retracting the bolt fails to engage this connecting rod.
When the bolt is pulled back, it brings this connecting rod out. The hammer needs to hit this to fire the pistol.
If the hammer is cocked by thumbing it back and not by the bolt, the connecting rod doesn’t come out and the pistol will not fire.
These pistols were also cut with a slot in the grip frame for a shoulder stock, which often served double duty as a wooden holster. The Broomhandle holster certainly did. Like the sights, the shoulder stocks were impractical, but most countries wanted them — at least in the beginning. The M712 actually uses its shoulder stock to help control the gun from climbing in recoil in the full-auto mode, so there’s a practical use for it. Of course, these pistols are made from diecast metal, and attaching a shoulder stock would soon wear out the slot. Even the steel firearms are always loose at this location.
The slot at the base of the grip frame is for a detachable stock that’s also a wooden holster. Because this pistol is made from soft metal, a stock isn’t practical.
When it came to sidearms, Mauser always played second fiddle to the firm of Lugwig Loewe, which later became much better-known as Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfrabriken, or DWM — the Luger people. DWM got all the military contracts, but that left Mauser to sweep up a lot of commercial sales, plus sales to countries that weren’t first in line for the Lugers. After war broke out in 1914, everyone was scrambling for firearms to arm the troops, and Broomhandles did sell to the military, along with the P08s that were in short supply.
This is a CO2 pistol whose cartridge and 18 BBs fit in the removable magazine located in front of the triggerguard. Pressing a release button on the right side of the frame allows the magazine to drop free.
The magazine release is a button on the right side of the frame, ahead of the triggerguard. Pressing in allows the magazine to drop fee from the pistol.
The BBs are loaded one at a time into the spring-loaded stack at the front of the magazine. The follower is pulled down and locked while the BBs are loaded through the front of the magazine. There’s a square hole on top of the magazine. On some airsoft guns, you might load ammo through a hole like that, but on this pistol it’s not for BBs. Leave it alone!
Load BBs through the front of the magazine — not through the square hole on top! As each BB is pressed in, it forces the BB before it to drop down.
Disassembly — don’t do it!
Yes, you can disassemble this pistol. And yes, there are small parts that can fall out, so I don’t recommend it. There’s no practical reason to do it, and I am not showing a video of how it’s done. Many who try it will not be able to assemble their guns again. There’s a small part that wants to drop free and with it comes a tiny hairspring that actuates it. These are loose parts that are held together only by their confinement inside the lower frame. Once out of the frame, they’re free to fall away.
The Mauser firearm design was made like a Chinese puzzle, with no screws holding the parts together. They interconnect in intricate ways, and the disassembly tab at the top rear of the grip is flipped up to separate the upper receiver and barrel from the lower receiver. Once the upper receiver and barrel are out of the lower receiver of this airgun, though, there are many tiny screws, springs and parts that are not found on the firearm. This is a gun to stay out of!
Power-wise, the M712 is supposed to spit them out at 360 f.p.s. That’s fast for a BB gun, but not overly so. And the gun needs some gas to operate the blowback function. Of course, I will test the velocity for you, but I watched the video Paul Capelo made and he got pretty close to those results, with some slowdown from the cooling of the gun as it fires.
What I want to see next
Umarex, you’ve awakened a sleeping dragon with these realistic air pistols. Here’s my wish list. How about a SIG P210 pistol? I can’t afford the firearm, so give me the next best thing. And don’t forget the M40 Lahti pistol made by Husqvarna, which was the mainstay of Denmark, Sweden and Finland for so many decades. And for gosh sakes, do I even need to say it again? Give us a realistic Single Action Army revolver! So many people have asked for that one over the years. I know the 12-gram CO2 cartridge doesn’t fit inside the standard SAA grip, but I’m pretty sure it will fit inside the grip frame of the 1860 Army frame that’s about a half-inch longer than the SAA grip.
Umarex got its start with blank guns — selling them in countries where firearms were not legal. They’ve now taken the next step with realistic guns that also shoot projectiles. I doubt there’s any end in sight!
Pyramyd Air Cup
In 2 weeks, I’ll be in Ohio to participate in the first annual Pyramyd Air Cup. If you plan to go but haven’t registered or reserved a room, then it’s time to get on the stick and do it! In fact, the last day to sign up is this Sunday, October 12.
Those who attend will experience 3 great days of shooting, trying out guns at the sight-in range, competitions, good food and lots of camaraderie. Meet other airgunners (some from this blog!), Pyramyd Air staff, airgun hunter and writer Jim Chapman, Airgun Reporter Paul Capello and me. All the info is on the special Pyramyd Air Cup website.
Airguns excluded from new legislation in California
Even if you don’t live in California, you’re probably aware of the numerous attempts by state representatives to pass legislation that requires all airsoft, BB and pellet guns to be brightly colored and to enforce greater restrictions on the purchase of these guns.
A 2014 effort had gained significant steam that looked like it might pass. However, due to the efforts of Pyramyd Air, Crosman, Remington and Umarex, California Senate Bill 199 excludes BB and pellet guns from being brightly colored. The bill was recently signed into law by the Governor and doesn’t require airsoft guns to be brightly colored but it does require them to have fluorescent strips on certain parts of the gun. The law takes effect Jan. 1, 2016.
203 thoughts on “Legends M712 full-auto CO2 BB pistol: Part 1”
BB, I have stopped using my co2 Walther ppk because reloading the magazines is so time consuming. How does reloading the m7 12 compare to my Walther? Is there a speed loader that will work without spilling bb,s all over the floor? Thanks, Ed
I’m about to get real creative with a turkey baster and Bobbie pin.
There is no speedloader, and it is one of the things that people will complain about. Since you asked the question I know you won’t like it.
I’m not too sensitive to that, because I don’t shoot these things much outside of testing them. I did shoot my PPKs a lot at first though, and they didn’t bother me. But it is one BB at a time.
I just got mine it is awesome” The full auto is so realistic the gun rises,I have the older
version but this one is a dream,yes the loading leaves a lot to be desired,but I
made a loading stand and it really makes loading the gun easier,When I learn how to
send in a picture of the stand I will,I’m sure that a lot of owners will see how much easier
it is to load and make one for themselves.By using a stand it is easy to push the bb’s into
the clip.I wish especially for this gun a larger capacity clip would be avalible,18 rounds goes
too fast”Maybe I can rig up an extended clip somehow”Fifty rounds sounds ideal”
You know, there were extended mags for the Schnellfeuers. I believe a 40-round mag was available. On this gun that would more than double the shots.
Umarex would be missing a lot of cash if they didn’t figure out how to get extended mags and stocks/holsters on the market while this thing’s still hot! If they’re not too late already.
I want a larger clip capacity too but I would be even happier if BB guns came with a 2nd clip so you could reload quickly and in a way that is “realistic”. Slamming in new magazines like they do in the movies is cool. I know you can buy after-market mags but they are ridiculously expensive. Some are almost as much as buying a second gun which makes no sense.
A full metal Mac 10 co2 BB gun with decent power would be very welcome too. All of the ones available are plastic underpowered disappointments. Some of the battery powered ones can’t even reach 300fps. I want at least 450 in full auto!
Another gun to NOT take apart is Umarex Morph 3 X. Mine quit working shortly after the warranty expired so I thought I wold see if it was something obvious that I could fix. Its just as BB described with small parts held together when the two halves are assembled together. They must have a procedure with trained personnel when they put these together.
I have all the parts but I figure by the time I pay for shipping both ways plus repair cost I might as well buy another one. At least its not too expensive.
I’m guessing there must be a majority of California’s population who are Blaze Orange color blind. Glad they didn’t ruin the artistry of the BB & pellet guns too! Thank you to PA and all other dealers who fought this nonsense, as well as the manufacturers and individuals who participated! Now vote those nuts off the planet.
A hearty Amen to your Amen!
The liberal thugs and vermin who want to deprive us of our rights will never
cease their efforts to disarm us.Nothing will stop or deter them,Look at cal.
and the insane liberal peoples non republic of new jersey”Small caps intententional”
They get away with the most unfair and unjust laws that are to be found anywhere
and because the liberal dirt bags have no fear of the Sportsman’s vote,They continue
to add law after law each and every session..In other states they could not get away with it
I lived in the regressive and hideous stae of nj”If anyone wants to see what would happen
if the venal dems and their knee jerk followers get their way”Take a ride on the nj Turnpike
while traveling thru the non republic of nj with a bb gun and get stopped by the nj Gestopo
You will go straight to jail no free pass,You wil be charged with ileagal possesion of a firearm,
Non possesion of a nj firearms id card,carring a concealed weapon if it is a bb pistol etc
It will cost you upwards of $10,000 or more to defend yourself.
nj does not honor the Sportsmans protection act of the eighties that Pres. Reagan signed into law
it says so on their web site”All firearms are contraband in nj with the following exceptions”
If you are convicted you will lose all your rights in nj and if you are deemed a felon you may not
be able to buy a firearm even if you got of of the state.
In nj all air guns are considered fire arms and a permit is needed for each one with waits in
some areas as long four or five months.Believe it or not the permit does not separate air guns
from real firearms you can buy a .500 magnum or a Marksman air pistol,In nj the guns are all
the same.Sling shots,cap guns,pea shooters most water pistols,blank guns,hollow points even
if they are pellets are also controlled.The libs have done in a few years,What the Soviets
couldn’t do in seventy “Destroy us,usurp our rights etc.The top thug right now is sitting
in his undeserved perch eagerly awaiting the outcome of the upcoming election hoping
they could fool us again and make the whole country a non peoples republic of nj
One of the best things I ever did is to have moved out of that repressive liberal hell hole
and live in a free state where I don’t have to look over my shoulder in fear that the nj Gestopo
will raid my house because they think I may have a bb gun and take my whole collection that
I have spent my life building,Yes it’s true one unregistered bb gun, I lose all my rights and
the nj fire arms card that you need to buy long guns in the Gulag.
Yes I know I sound bitter”I am I hate those liberal states and the lack of freedom in them
These thugs and vermin wrap themselves in the constitution and claim they honor it”
They don’t” What is clearly in there they don’t see they gloss over the parts they don’t like
and find things that are not there.It is they that do not allow freedom of thought and if they get their
way we all might as well move to the UK Where all the socialist utopian ideas have been realized.
Don’t hold it all in like that! You have to learn to speak your mind. 😉
I’m glad that you escaped. Onve the Libs realized that they screw things up there, they’ll move to where you are now and bring their ideology along with them, so the battle will never be over…
As a “Liberal thug. . . vermin . . . dirt bag” who loves air guns, freedom, and well-crafted prose, I would like to suggest just two things: 1st, to find “the most unfair and unjust laws that are to be found anywhere” you might look to North Korea, not Camden or Hoboken.
And 2nd, you really ought to make friends with Mr. Period, Mr. Semicolon, Mr. Dash, Mr. Exclamation Point, and Mr. Question Mark, any one of whom can be placed after an independent clause. That is, unless you are going for a James Joycean stream-of-consciousness effect, in which case please excuse my punctuation advice.
(Just an attempt to lighten the mood. :^)
Michael, it’s which not whom. Whom infers a person not a thing.
Indeed. Note that I preceded each of the things, period, semicolon, dash, exclamation point, and question mark, with “Mr.” I was employing personification. Therefore, my usage was correct.
Are you saying a person passing through the great state of Chris Christyland can get busted just for having an air gun in the trunk? What if someone was traveling to Ohio from say a New England state for the Pyramyd get together later this month and got stopped or had car problems? That would kinda suck.
Many years ago, one of our field target shooters in Maryland was driving to NJ to shoot in a field target match in that state. He had a bad car accident on a major NJ highway. His car was loaded with air rifles, including some expensive ones. The NJ highway patrol that came to the accident scene helped him locate all the guns that were scattered all over the highway and simply handed them to him.
Also, and I know I’ll get blasted for saying this, quite a few NJ police departments sponsor youth shooting events. The purpose is to get kids involved with the shooting sports and to teach safe gun-handling.
I’ve been getting the Google news alerts for many years, and was astounded by what I was reading. It’s contrary to everything I’ve heard about NJ. It is a conundrum 🙂 It’s almost as if there are 2 New Jerseys.
So, feel free to blast me out of the water for saying something nice about (1) New Jersey and (2) police departments. I have yet to find other police departments in other states that encourage shooting among youth or that get involved in proper gun handling for kids.
Most cops love guns and shooting!They just wanna be in control of all of them so nothing bad happens, a lot thinking no’one else could be safer or more effective with one than they. However this past year here in Tx. a line dance turned into a fatal shooting when the off-duty officer tried to re-secure his weapon- a young female was struck in the groin. I guess he woulda had to take it to his car for lock-up to avoid infraction of Concealed Carry law but he shoulda took it off before hitting the dance floor!
Agree with you there.
The more we give in the more they will take.
Time to get the defense outta the way and get back to offense so we can reclaim our rights!
I just received mine, and it looks incredible! I can’t fire it tonight (wife’s sick/asleep) but I can’t wait! Also, I live in California, so I’m relieved to hear that the legislation was blocked.
Sure am glad you don’t have to paint it! I hope somebody comes up with a loader to speed things up a bit before they wind up being shelved like Ed’s Walther. Even Daisy’s newer RedRyder,Buck, 880 and similar loading bb guns could use one!
Were you able to get a 2nd clip also? I think they were about $60.
Right now PA has them listed at $40 and also that they are on back order. How can you possibly own one of these things without two spare magazines?
I’m not too worried about loading BBs one at a time…maybe it will slow down my CO2 consumption. If it were the firearm, I’d be loading bullets one at a time. If I want to wholesale BBs down range, I’ll reach for my modded Drozd Blackbird 😉
My sentiment, exactly.
That’s pretty much the way I accept it, for now but I don’t have a Blackbird.and I see bulk fill mods coming. Watching my nephew load his Buck was an experience, he had to do them one at a time.That’s when I got the turkey baster idea,it would take a little engineering to get it to shove them into a tight stack but gravity would do most of the job for you on the other guns(basically a funnel with a flexible cup on the end and the Bobbie pin where the diameter gets smaller would stop the flow when released), maybe a flexible clear line at the end would help also. By the way,The offer still stands on the Reusable Reactive Target project. We’re gonna make you rich,even if you don’t want it! Now,I’ll go see what that video looks like again.
Hey Reb,try one of these https://www.amazon.com/Beeman-Speed-Loader-Caliber-Pellets/dp/B00182PA5E
I have a couple and they work good.
Similar to your turkey baster idea but they have a stop
molded into the neck,just give it a squeeze and the BB’s run out
mostly in single file.
I’ll have to check that out.Thanks JT!
Yeah, don’t shoot that pistol until your wife is awake and prepared for it. On full auto it is loud!
The patterns it puts out on full auto remind me of the difference between running #1  shot in the Feltmans,I gotta shoot one! I’ll bet lead shot would cut down on a bunch of ricohets.Does Umarex mention using them?
No, they don’t. But lead balls are larger than steel BBs and might get stuck in the barrel. remember the Luger and the Avanti BBs?
But they come in different sizes than .177.Too small would obviously jam the feeding mechanism and be inaccurate, I can’t post a link to a supplier here but here are . I know you probably have them memorized B.B.but for others’ interest I’d like to share some charts for reference.
I figured…It looks like thhe whole breech opens up with each shot. Can’twait to hear it!
What do you mean with it being loud? It is not earplug loud, is it?
I know many of these CO2 BB pistols have a pretty good little pop. Is it just that this thing has eighteen of those pops in a little over one second?
Personally, I could care less, however there are many who read this who must concern themselves with the reaction of the Neighborhood Watch.
No, it’s not earplug loud. It’s just the sustained noise of the rounds being fired.
I’ve been showing off this gun(online of course) to a lot of my friends who have mentioned “maybe” purchasing a new airgun but the video is glitchy and I don’t know how many of them have the patience to see what it can really do.
It looked like Paul and his buddy, Guy were loading them one at a time and it did look very time consuming. Time for another accessory?B.B?
The video is glitchy? What kind of issues did you have? Tom watched it and didn’t see any issues. I watched most of it and didn’t see a problem.
I just pulled it up to watch while taking my BP, I played with the quality settings to try to get it to run smoothly and it froze @ 1:28.
I’m sure this 2000 Compaq Presario isn’t helping but it’s better than some cell phones.
I think your computer may be at fault, not the video. We are unable to duplicate the problem you’re having. Perhaps the computer is also causing some of the other problems you’ve had with the blog.
I’ve been trying to figure out how to optimize it’s memory, I installed over 500 meg of RAM about a year ago. Maybe you could suggest a tutorial?
Thanks Edith! 🙂
Any modern smart phone will run circles around that old desk top rig. The retired desktop sitting in the corner collecting dust in my wife’s office has 4 gig of ram. So sorry to say the problem is your computer.
Yeah, short of getting an external hard drive(if compatible) this one’s just about at it’s limit.I do have some salvaged DVR hard drives that would require reformatting and they are much bigger than what’s in use now but the RAM is full, that said I profess no knowledge of computers. Although I do recall a computer math class in 1985 with a B average. Any upgrades requiring significant funding will have to wait.Guess I’ll be limping on line as well 🙂 .
Just go out and kill a few tin cans to ease your frustrations. I can’t even do that it’s raining all I can do is look at my new gun between peeks out the window to see if the rain has stopped yet.
We caught about 1″ last night and I missed 2 windows last night.The temp was 50 @ sunrise and steadily falling, calling for a low over Monday night of 48 and 90% chance of rain
You should go to your system tools section and run a disk cleanup and then a defragment and see if that helps any.
I did a little work on it yesterday but still gotta ways to go. It’s getting better.
The loading is one at a time. If that bothers you, you won’t like this pistol.
These load much faster if you pull the follower all the way back and roll the BBs in the square hole above the follower.
I tried that and jammed the magazine. It took me five minutes to get the BBs back out of the hole.
Not the hole in the top of the magazine this hole is in the side with the follower button. You have to hold the button all the way down with your fingernail past the lock.
I have a 712 magazine in my hand right now. There is no such hole! The follower slot is straight with no enlargement, like other magazines have.
Iam sorry my bad . MY 712 mag slot opens up on the bottom maybe you could pull the spring and drill ahole a little bit bigger than a bb in the slot.
No, you did nothing wrong! I just haven’t seen the magazine you describe.
I have seen those holes in other BB mags many times and you are right — they do speed up the loading process.
The 712 I have is an early one, so something must have changed in production between mine and yours.
Yeah mine looks like the one in part of this blog
Sorry part 2
Have them consider the Artillery Luger for their line of reproductions. They would only need to make a new upper half…
What GREAT idea! And perhaps a snail drum magazine to go with it? Or would that then require the shoulder stock? Probably best not to do that. But the artillery or naval design is wonderful.
How about a Borchardt!!!!!!
A Borchardt would round out the “oddities” of the period… P08 with the toggle, Broomhandle Mauser with the front-heavy magazine position, and the Borchardt with that rear overhang.
Now, for something really unusual… How about a flintlock pistol! Most of them had grips that were long and flat enough to take a CO2 cartridge. For safety the priming pan should probably become a means to insert one BB — don’t want to be pushing a BB down a muzzle with a CO2 charge sitting there. Closing the frizen (sp?) would somehow have to push the BB into the bore (some sort of lever actuated by the hinge?). CO2 release would be internal from the trigger, though a spring loaded cock to snap open the pan for the next shot would be desired.
(sp)=frizzen, regardless of the red squiggly line.
That would be a nice companion to the BB76! or sell ’em in pairs with an eye-patch. 🙂
There was another semi pistol that came out around that time. At the moment I cannot seem to download it from my database, but it was featured in the Duke’s movie “Big Jake”. Was it a Bergman?
The Bergman-Bayard was around at that time, and it does look funky.
It was the Bergmann!
I vote for the 1896 Bergmann!!!
Thanks for this series, B.B. I’ll admit I have little interest in the Broomhandle, and only a marginal desire for a Luger, but when you say “how about a SIG 210?”, now we’re talking. (Ditto the SAA.) And of course those are simply my personal preferences; full props and appreciation to Umarex for taking on the project, which seems a great idea in general. One wonders if they will go all the way back to the Borchardt pistol with this project! (Personally, I hope the historic pistol project eventually gets around to the Webley-Fosbery revolver, the Colt Woodsman, and the Savage .45 auto.)
Forgive me if there’s an obvious answer that I just missed, but is this replica project going to extend to rifles as well? I’d love to see replicas of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine, the Savage 99, M1 Garand, and the Browning BAR. And hey, while we’re wishing, how about reproducing the 1892 Krag-Jorgensen, the Lee straight-pull bolt, the Enfield Jungle Carbine, and the 03 Springfield (with and without Pedersen device)… 🙂
Funny thing, I watched a DVD documentary on Bonnie & Clyde today and thought how awesome a light recoil version would be. The Parker name is on my mother’s side of the family and when I lived in Austin I used to see a Tara Barrow.
Always liked Bonnie and Clyde. I really would of liked to meet them. Maybe even shoot a few of their guns with them.
I had no idea what gun this was until I saw a picture but did ya know?
What an amazing story. Makes any collector wary of getting “too good a deal”,,, and should make everyone wary of what our government can and does find out about anyone.
Especially when more than one country’s government is involved.
Glad you read and enjoyed it! I know I did!
I wish they’d work that hard on my guns.
You know, as I wrote that I was also thinking about a BAR. Probably not the others because I own the firearms.
Now this would be a CO2 pistol worthy of my “collection”. It would be a right expensive addition though. Even if the speed loader they list as an accessory for this thing works, you are going to want 2 or more spare magazines with this thing. Paul also stated that they were only getting two loads per CO2 cylinder, so you are going to have to stock up on those things. As for the BBs, you will likely have to contact Daisy or Crosman and have them ship them to you in bulk.
Those feral soda cans had better watch out.
They have this listed as an accessory for this pistol.
Do you happen to have one of these and if so, does it work with this magazine?
Here is the review B.B. gave the that speed loader.
I knew someone would get on this pretty quick. Why only 8 at a time, the reservoir look like it should hold about 50 or so?
It does hold a bunch. When the plunger is raised, BBs enter a tube on the inside with an opening on the bottom. You align that opening with the magazine and push down on the plunger and it forces the BBs out of the tube and into the magazine. Raise the plunger and start all over.
Okay, that sounds doable for the spring loaded clips but I’ll be moving ahead with the turkey baster for gravity fed mags.
I haven’t tried one, but I did talk with Umarex on the Luger and that loader. It “sort” of works, but you have to hold it just right.
Still, with all the interest I see in both these pistols, I better check one out myself.
Since it was listed as an accessory for this pistol, I could see where the assumption would be that it would fit directly or have an adapter that fit this magazine.
When you are fighting off a horde of feral soda cans, being able to quickly reload or be forced to load BBs one at a time can be the difference between surviving or being overrun.
Please do test the speedloader with both this and the P08.
Yeah, listed accessories don’t always work with the gun they are listed with. I just bought an RWS Diana 460 Magnum in .177 and the first accessory listed is a pellet pen. Anyone want to tell me how to use one of these on an underlever especially one with a 3-12×44 scope mounted. Please I own 2 pellet pens I am despite to learn the trick of using one with a scoped underlever. lol
I suspect straight-line pellet pens will never work well with anything that uses a ported access to the breech.
Pity no one makes a loader that works like capper…
These don’t hold the caps “end-to-end” but rather more like a semi-auto magazine.
Would need a spring-loaded thumb button at the end to push the pellet out into the barrel.
You are correct no way the pellet pen works with a 460 Magnum or any underlever but Pyramyd lists it as an a recommended accessory for this gun. Sometimes stuff just sneaks by and ends up on the list. You won’t find the pellet pen listed as an accessory for the TX or the HW97, but we all know if you just happened to order a pellet pen when you order your new under lever from Pyramyd they will allow you to return it.
I think a 1847 Walker would be big enough to hide a CO2 cartridge. After you fire a Walker a SAA seems too mild.
A Walker is another great idea! And what’s wrong with the 1860 Army? It alrteady has the longer grips.
Welcome to the blog!
Ray, the Walker crossed my mind too! So many great possibles here for getting your firearm fix through actually-affordable airgun replicas…but for me at least part of my interest in the Walker is purely visceral. With a Walker, the point would seem to be belch of blackpowder smoke and the rolling up in the hand from recoil. Gas powerplants do a nifty job of simulating the experience of a semiauto’s cycling, but I just don’t know how you’d do the same kind of thing, genuinely, for a smokepole. (Well, maybe…more in a moment.)
But still, my mind was on it too. In addition to the Walker on the handgun side, I found myself thinking “what if” thoughts about some of the classic single-shot rifles (Sharps, High Wall, Farquharson, Martini) and even the iconic African double: while we’re talking about affordable replicas of things we can’t afford, how about a Westley-Richards or Holland & Holland double rifle with cartridge inserts for .470 or .577? These would “suffer” the same problem as the Walker, in my way of thinking, but then again these are the sort of things that represent pure fantasy and enjoyment for me.
And that, really, is where I think Umarex is really on to something with this “Legends” idea. As a cash-strapped father with young children in the house, I’m not soon going to be able to afford even a SIG 210, much less an English double. But a well-thought-out replica, now…and one that you can actually get your fill of shooting…yeah, I suspect people will sign up for that.
How much has this got my back-brain chewing? Let’s just say that I’ve been wondering how one could design a manually-actuated rifle that would do two things: 1) power a BB or pellet by a conventional airgun powerplant (CO2 probably), but then also 2) use the (manual) cycling of the action to stage a recoil-generating mechanism also housed inside the gun. Remember the old Colt Ace .22 trainer for the 1911, with its “floating chamber” design that enhanced the recoil of the .22? I’m thinking of something like that, but which uses the rifle’s manual action to compress it.
One obvious nod to airgunnery here is that the idea of the spring-piston is already well understood, and it would seem at least possible to design a piston whose purpose might be partially or entirely devoted to creating recoil. The case of the double rifle would be reasonably obvious: whereas in the firearm, breaking the action serves to cock hammers (for internal-hammer guns at least), on a replica that could serve to compress a “recoil piston” that may or may not have anything to do with propelling the projectile–maybe it could even be housed in the stock. If this could be made to work, one could envision a replica double in which you break the action, insert your “asparagus-sized cartridges”, snap it shut, and fire your tiny pill(s) with some real feedback–okay, maybe not .577 Nitro feedback, but something analogous to the way a green-gas Airsoft 1911 creates a lightweight approximation of the firearm’s experience.
I suspect it would cost, as the design might not be easy to manufacture. But I can at least speak for myself: I would pay attention to that with great interest.
And I wonder if that basic idea could be applied to other designs as well. There would seem to be room in most manually actuated rifle designs to generate at least a little recoil impulse (and I wouldn’t think you’d need much, to make the point); in pistols that might be a little more challenging…except that here comes that Walker again, with that big ramrod stroke…what think, Umarex? 🙂
Thanks again, Ray, for bringing up the Walker, and thanks again, B.B., for reporting on a really delightful idea.
I think you may have answered this question already, but I want to ask it anyway just to be sure of the answer. The M712 has a rectangular button on the right side of the frame at the back by the bolt. The manual says nothing about what this button is for. Is this button the disassembly button you mentioned?
On my wish list for Umarex replica pistols, Glock! The KWC 2014 catalog showed new .177 steel BB airguns of what appear to be Glock replicas. Are those coming to the retail market in the coming months?
On my wish list for Umarex replica semi-auto / full auto rifles, Thompson! I’ve looked at the airsoft AEG Thompson machine gun replicas off and on for several months now, but I would really like to buy one in full metal for .177 steel BB, especially one with the pistol style woooden foregrip and the drum magazine.
The disassembly switch is located at the top rear of the grip frame. And it works well.
No idea of what is coming, but I know PA is on top of everything that’s new.
The disassembly button is on the top? The what is the rectangular button on the right side beside the bolt?
Also I have an update on that Thompson wish list. Make it a pellet shooter! If Umarex could do that with a drum magazine and full auto, that would be awesome!
That thing isn’t for disassembling this pistol. It does work on the firearm.
On this pistol, the disassembly switch is a small switch located at the top rear of the grip frame. Push it up and hold it and the upper receiver slides back off the lower receiver. I would advise not doing it though.
Thanks for the clarification. I have absolutely no plans to disassemble this pistol. I learned my lesson well enough a couple years ago with the Umarex P38 replica. I didn’t intend to fully disassemble that one, but while I was examining the functions and frame with the P38 barrel off, I accidentally slid the slide off, and out popped a spring! I couldn’t reassemble the P38 and had to send it back to Pyramyd Air.
On the M712 firearm, what does the rectangular button do?
It has been over 40 years since I owned a Broomhandle, but if memory serves that is a part that is removed to remove the bolt from the upper receiver.
That part is called the recoil spring abutment.
My vote calls for the Remington with interchangeable cylinders and the co2 Thompson/Feltman.
Years ago I passed on a couple Broomhandle C96 pistols……mistake. This one looks too good to miss. BTW, full auto guns have gotten so expensive due to the limited supply. A law was passed in 1986 that limited civilian ownership to the guns registered at that time. No new ones can be sold except to dealers who can only sell to other dealers, military, or police.
Yes, full-auto firearms are one of the best investments you can make. They double in value every couple years.
That is for sure. A friend that was a dealer in full auto sold a mint Navy Overstamp Thompson for $20,000.00 a few years ago. He had only payed around 2,000 for it. It probably would go for more today.
Off today topic . While the Umarex NXG APX is s nice multi pump inexpensive alternative. I would have expected Umarex to take lead in inavation by giving the NXG a valve with depinger . So for example lets say the NXG had a rating of producing 900 fps with a 7.9 gr .177 cal pellet pump the rifle 10 times and after each shot all that is needed is 3 pumps for rest of full power shots.. I know its been done to the high end 397 Benjamin.and doubling its price only because of the master mind that did the modifcation had to get paid for his craftmanship. But a big outfit like Umarex can do it for less money. I apologise if someone has patend for that.
What 397 modification are you talking about? I have the pump-assist 392, but it doesn’t develop full power with less than 8 strokes. They are just easier. It didn’t double the price — it added $100 to the $160 retail price.
You must be referring to a different Benjamin modification that I am not aware of. I’d like to know more.
Yes it is a different mod than the pump assist Crosman was on board with that. I dont want to mention names becase it was not offered from Crosman but a online retailer . Its not available now on their site. But if you saw that add you can contact the actuall gunsmith pretty sure he still can do the mod.I will give more about this mod when i get home from work. Not that its secret…
BBs eyes only hint Steve Woodward was the developer google mods to benji 397 and youll find the add best i ca do for now
B.B., that would be the Benjamin 392 ACP (Air Conserving Pumper). With this rifle, you pump it up 8 times for full power the first time, then after that, each full power shot only requires 3 pumps. It’s still listed as in stock and sells for $339. I think the Discovery has kind of killed guns like that. This is from a review: Utilizing unique Air-Conserving-Pumper (ACP) technology , the AoA Benjamin ACP requires less than half the pumping to achieve full power than the standard model. By installing a proprietary Hammer-Debounce-Device (HDD) in combination with other modifications, the usually wasteful pumper valve is made to conserve and recycle most of the stored air over and over, shot after shot.
I too didn’t list a link as it’s for a PA competitor and I didn’t think that would be fair. I do wish makers would for a way to get the price down and do this to all pumpers. Thanks, Bradly
From my understanding of this mod it significantly decreases the volume of air to be stored in the valve for a trade off of higher pressure with less volume available for propulsion along with a debouncer and should mean less power, that’s why I never did it.
I went the other way and installed a 760 check vale which was about half the length of the original, opening the valve to accept more air. 14 pumps feels just about right but I don’t go higher than that anymore, after blowing an exhaust valve @ 20. The PA(NOT Pyramyd air) models are much less robust than the older guns and won’t tolerate over-pumping like the older ones!
I think Chris was referring to a debouncer mod to lessen hammer strike.
It will cost you power and if the valve is like a 880 it stays open after firing and will fully dump anyway so no air will be left in the chamber to lessen the amount of pump strokes to full power on the next shot.
Hey Reb, replying to everybody from the other day here, didn’t realize my email app had been removed so SOMEBODY could make room for their facebook… lol, but the gamo HI domed are about 20$ per 500, 6$ for 150 count. They are very good pellets, though.
Thanks! Do they come in .177 &.22?
I’ve been trying to get into this computer to optimize it’s memory, can you suggest a good video tutorial?
Facebook is the Devil! 🙂
Are you asking about the M712? Because it is neither a .177 or a .22. It is a BB gun, only.
This is why I dislike manufacturers referring to steel BBs as .177, because then people start thinking they are.
No those would be for another purpose.
I read somewhere that Feltmans were manufactured in .173 & .175, and with #1’s they shot fairly accurately with about 110 shots @10′, Steel hit hard & fast but ricocheted everywhere, dented the backstops and only allowed for 99 shots, #2 allowed for about 125 or so with the loading kit(brass tubes about 12″ long and a tall can with an extended rim).
I drove that trailer with at least a ton of lead shot and those 5 guns from Brownwood to N.M. and back to the east coast down to Fl. for winter and back up in spring for about 5 years. I remember N.Y. & Md. but No N.J.
I hope this explains my infatuations.
I think the real Holy Grail for Umarex would be a blow-back, full-auto, steel BB version of the Ingram MAC-11, complete with fake two-stage silencer. This full-auto pistol is probably THE most iconic military-style gun used in Hollywood action pictures over the past 25 years. The list of films that prominently feature it is impressive. Like this Mauser, it was, as I understand it, utterly impractical. But an airgun of it would be able to hold more BBs than these other guns, so one could “rock and roll” for a good two to three seconds longer!
The Ingram MAC-11 is the epitome of the ultra-cool form-is-function look, and they would outsell any of the other Legends models by a LOT. And, at least two or three of the major airsoft makers already have a gas-powered model long in production, so Umarex would already be more than halfway there.
After seeing Jaime Lee Curtis drop her M11 in the movie “True Lies” and have it take out all the terrorists as it tumbled downstairs in slow motion, I almost bought the firearm. Sure, it’s only chambered for the .380, but that makes it more controllable.
A true gun nut is a male that watches the gun tumble down the stairs in a movie rather than watch Jaime Lee Curtis.
It was tough because she really got in good shape for that movie! And I’m still single.
HEY — I’m married, here! 😉
Just because you know what you’re having for dinner doesn’t mean you can’t look at the menu.
I’ve never understood why it’s a crime for a man to appreciate the beauty of another woman. In fact, just earlier this week, Tom and I were watching a movie with Sofia Vergara. I said, “She’s really beautiful, isn’t she?” He agreed. It’s okay. Tom’s married, not dead! If you can’t appreciate beauty, whether it’s another person or a gun or the landscape, then you’re missing out on one of the basic pleasures of life. Appreciating beauty is different than lust. Lust is bad. Appreciation is good 🙂 Well, that’s how I see it.
I have a lot of respect for how much work is required to get/stay in shape, both physical and mental! The beauty is a nice perk.
Sorry but I have to comment.
My buddy and his wife are just like you talk about. I don’t mind at all. But my wife just don’t seem to see things that way. I’m throwing my arms up in the air right now and going what can I say.
Sorry I shouldn’t of even responded
ROTFLMAO!!! My wife says I am married and dead!
Very healthy perspective. I think it has a lot to do with being secure. Secure with yourself and secure in your marriage. Without it you’re married alive LOL!
Just got back from spending the weekend at our place outside of Leadville. Blizzard. I-70 was closed at Dillon so we crawled over Loveland Pass. Horrid commute that more than doubled our driving time. Arrgh.
Hope you’re enjoying the weather in Texas.
Well….you got permission. In writing. You can thank me later.
Actually, you pointed my mistake out to me. I actually meant the sl;ightly more cool MAC-10, in .45ACP.
But if Umarex could come up with a Legends Jamie Lee Curtis . . . uh, yeah, I’m married, too. Never mind.
Seriously, though, an Umarex blow-back BB gun version of the MAC-10 would be the single coolest CO2 firearm replica of all time, hands-down. And it would sell like crazy. I would imagine that Pyramyd Air would sell out the model with pre-orders alone for the first six months of production.
I can’t believe Umarex hasn’t put one out already. The TSD-HFC-Wingun-ASG (or whatever) MAC-10 airsoft gas-powered blow-back models are already out there, and internally, it couldn’t be a far cry from the blow-back UZI BB gun.
Put an extended barrel inside a non-removable, fake, two-stage silencer (like the original SIONICS one), and it would be a 35-40 round, full-auto, 400 fps., 3 pound bundle of pure joy.
I believe there was the Ingram designed Military Armament Command (MAC) model 10 in 45, 9mm and 380. Later the Cobray M11 in 9mm and the M12 in 380 with each being smaller. Some full and some semi but there was also a 16″ carbine conversion kit offered with a barrel shroud and a bolt on stock that would really turn them into very Tac-T-Cool fun guns easy to control. Now that would be very hard to resist in a BB gun with a double stack CO2 / BB mag.
The MAC? Really? Have you ever been up close and personal with one? They were made by the same people who made the Mattelomatic, the accounting department.
Military Armament Corporation (MAC) manufactured their Model 10, or MAC-10, which was designed by Gordon B. Ingram. Not a Mattel product. The cool-factor was upped by the addition of the Sionics made two-stage suppressor,
I’ve not shot one, but I have shot an airsoft TSD CO2 powered MAC-11 replica, and it is more fun than a person has a right to experience! A steel BB one with MAC-10 dimensions and weight would be a dream come true.
The Mattelomatic is the M16. I call it that because it is made mostly of pot metal and plastic as are toys. It replaced the M14 because it was a lot cheaper to build and feed, thus the reference to the accounting department.
The MAC was the accounting department’s answer to the UZI. At first glance, they both look like they were made from chopped down ammo cans, but when you open that can up, there is no comparison.
Hollywood made the MAC famous. War made the UZI famous.
I’m sorry. I really can be a dink sometimes. Yeah, that little black handful is mean looking and would definitely have a bit of cool factor when you shred a case of feral soda cans. I would just hope that they would build it to a higher quality level than the originals.
No offense taken.
There actually WAS a toy called the Mattel-o-matic, though! It was a hand-cranked rapid fire cap gun which probably fetches a pretty price from antique toy collectors.
And I did describe the MAC-10 as impractical above. So was each derivative of the C-96, right? But what cool CO2 replicas these odd guns make.
I think the Pentagon ultimately rejected the MAC-10 as a Special Forces close combat weapon because it was not practical, not even as a “room sweeper.” But I’ll bet the guys who tried it out had a lot of fun with ’em!
Once again, Umarex would sell huge numbers of these if they marketed them in .175, especially if they could goose the capacity up to 50 rounds.
I supported the Anti-Orange movement from pyramyd and shared the info on my wife’s Facebook do very glad to hear it was dropped, though I am surprised, what with the government being a free-for-all, tail-spinning hindinburgh, they seem to feel free to trample as they please. On another note, I know Im just not gonna make it to The Cup, but I do so wish, anybody from the Massachusetts area going I could carpool with? Think that’s about the only way, if I could split the drive and lodge with someone heading that way.
According to The Internet Movie Database (imdb.com) the Ingram MAC-10 has been prominently featured in 117 Hollywood movies, 33 American TV show episodes, 36 video games, and 15 anime comics. These statistics are a couple years old, so they do not include 2014 or much of 2013.
The first appearance was John Wayne using one in McQ in 1974. The highest concentration of them in movies and television is in the 1990s. Young boys from the 1990s are now — BINGO! — in their mid 20s to mid 30s, with a nostalgic yearning for their childhood pleasures combined with disposable income to spend on BB guns. (Umarex, take that as a hint.)
How could Umerax not take that as a hint after the way you put it. And you put it very well if I may say so myself. 🙂
If you want an iconic movie with the MAC in it, consider “McQ” with John Wayne. I think everyone I knew wanted one after seeing that…
Just watched the trailer for it, couldn’t remember enough to justify not watching it again. I’ll keep an eye on the John Wayne collections.
Greetings from Canada. I don’t quite understand why so many posters on this blog refer to the Mauser M712 (and a few other replica pistols) as they would be manufactured by Umarex. I’d like to point out that Umarex has nothing to do with a design and manufacturing of the Mauser M712 pistol. Umarex is only a distributor of the pistol in the US. In Europe the pistol is distributed by S.A.S. and Gletcher. In reality, the pistol is designed and manufactured by KWC (Kien Well Toy Industrial Co.Ltd) in Taiwan like the other more recent blowback pistols: the Luger Parabellum P08, Colt 1911 (Tanfoglio Witness) and Sig Sauer P226. In Canada a few airgun retailers sell the M712 imported directly from KWC without any white markings (Not a toy…etc.) only with a KWC logo, caliber and serial number.
I purchased the Mauser M712 a week ago and found two major problems. First, out of the box, the pistol shot about 3” above the POA and about 3” to the left at 25 feet. I found that the outer barrel moved up and down because it is fixed solely by a tiny socket screw (M3x3LxP0.5; part#E09) on the underside of the barrel. This kind of design is a joke. A loose barrel always drops down resulting in the POI being a few inches above the POA. Furthermore, even after tightening, the socket screw again loosens right up after a few shots. I found a temporary fix for this problem which is posted here: http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic64628.html.
Second, the tangential rear sight has too much lateral movement when the slider is fully lowered which results in shooting to the left. So, I pressed the rear sight maximally to the right and taped it at that position with a black electrical tape. After that, in a standing off hand position, for a fifteen shot string (rapid shooting) I get 5-6 shots in the bullseye and the rest centered within a 3” group. The fix seems to work well but this is only a temporary solution and I’m looking for something more permanent. The conclusion is that one should try to fix the above problems before testing accuracy.
By the way, my M712 shoots very close to 360fps at 20°C.
Interesting, why not use 3 or 4 grub screws? as well as An epoxy instead of Loctite(anareobic compound requiring a near vacuum to set) and barrel stabilizers or maybe even a sleeve and press it in on the aft end as well as stabilizers?
Are you certain that you aren’t pushing in anticipation of recoil (or heeling in anticipation of recoil if you’re a south paw). That would lead to shots landing high and to the left (10-11 oclock).
It is not recoil. Out of the box, the outer barrel is loose because it is mounted to an upper receiver using a single tiny grub screw (3 mm in diameter). This is a bad engineering design. The barrel and upper receiver should be die cast forming one integral part, exactly like for the original C96/M712 firearm. Now, after I’ve adjusted the outer barrel and rear sight all shots are well centered.
That is a bummer but at least you got it to zero. I get a lot of friends that shoot at my place. More often than not when somebody brings a new pistol and lands a rough group off of zero it turns out to be the shooters technique that needs an adjustment instead of the sights. I’m glad you are sighted in, this sounds like a really fun plinking pistol.
We’re about to be hammered by thunderstorms through Monday.The temperature dropped 15 degrees in about 10 minutes and the wind was gusting to 40 mph. This is Tornado weather!
We have been hammered by the thunder storms. Wind has been high gusts at times. But been getting cool up here. High if were lucky right now upper 50’s to lower 60’s.
Getting to cold for Tornado’s.
Thought you all called them Twisters down there. I been through one. Don’t want to do it again that’s for sure.
We’re in tornado alley. It doesn’t take much and when the cold air comes down that fast the warm air rushes up creating the updrafts responsible for hail, once that starts it’s time to keep on lookout. We had dozens of them throughout my childhood. Brownwood is in a basin and most of them jump over us but we always seeked shelter in brick buildings.
when I was stationed at Lowry we had one remove a trailer park just on the other side of the fence. We had to be relocated from a ground floor in our building to an underground floor about 200 yards away. I was mesmerized the whole way! It was only about 1000 yards away and closing Quick, whipping around like on The wizard of Oz and slingin’ stuff around.
While in Cheney Ks I watched a F3 track for about 10 miles, the hailstones were bigger than softballs! Busted a couple windshields while we all stopped tearing down(sloughing) and stood against an old Walmart building to dodge the hailstones.
There are a couple more good ones I’m sure I’ll share eventually but that’s enough for now 🙂 .
Well guys the Luger arrived yesterday and I took it to a buddy’s house for a test run. Another friend also popped over and once I fired the first few shots I had to fight them to get it back!! It didn’t do so well at the usual 30 feet but when you move up to 15 feet like it was suggested by one of the evaluators it really shoots well. Both guys remarked how real the blowback felt, how nice the trigger was and what a good deal it is for the asking price! I’ll be ordering the broom handle (along with many CO2 cylinders) after I get done posting in this. Sidenote: we also played around with my Avanti 717 pellet pistol which I’d purchased a few months back, put in the safe, and promptly forgot about, it shot wonderfully and acquitted itself very well next to my friends Beeman P1. Happy columbus Day To All Here!!
Kevin in CT
“And on the brave and crazy wings of youth
They went flying around in the rain
And their feathers, once so fine, grew torn and tattered
And in the end they traded their tired wings
For the resignation that living brings’
“Before The Deluge” by Jackson Browne
Went to the Buchanan Dam Gun Show today and found three air guns I was interested in. Think I did “pretty good”! Beeman Webley Tempest San Rafeal address. Dealer has shot it. No instructions or box. $50. Crosman 116 in the original box with the CO2 cylinder and instructions. Box is worn, but all there. $50. Crosman 600 in original box with instructions, box worn but all there, finish on gun still about 90- 95%. $50. Old man had had the two Crosman’s in his attic for some unknown time frame. Dealer didn’t know anything else about them.
I have had a Crosman 600 for several years, now have two. Shot the Webley. It seems ok.
Any thoughts on what to check before trying to charge the two Crosman’s to see if they shoot? Oh, and the CO2 cylinder with the Crosman 116 still has CO2 in it. I can fill the cylinder if necessary as I have a 20# co2 tank for my other CO2 guns.
I believe I did “pretty good” on these buys. Just have to decide if I keep all three or not. Might make good trade items.
Yes, you did pretty good. All those guns are worth more than what you paid for them.
Tell us how they work?
Went ahead and charged the Crosman 600. I read the model number on the other Crosman wrong. It’s 115. It also the 115 charged from the original CO2 cylinder. Both CO2 guns appear to be working properly. The Webley Tempest also is working fine. Pretty happy with my purchases today. Have to get the chromo out sometime and see how good they really are performing. Every once in a while, your purchases come up smelling like roses!
for $150 you got a nice collection of pistols!
Now, that is a good report. Good on ya, mate!
Got a new gun this week an RWS Diana 460 Magnum. I bought the Rifle Combo package with scope and so called RWS Lockdown mount. The package actually came with the RWS 3-9×44 Night Pro scope not the listed 4×32 AO listed. I’m using a UTG Leapers 3x12x44 SWAT mounted on the RWS Lockdown and had some problems initially with scope creep but I think that is solved. I’m getting about 1200fps according to my Chrony with 7gr R-10 match Pistol pellets. Haven’t had a chance to back up to 25 yards yet but at10 meters I had 10 shot groups in the .3″ range with several pellets shooting over the Chrony . This is my first gun with a trigger this nice wow now I get what you are talking about. As adjusted from the factory the trigger has a very short first stage in fact I missed it the first few times I fired the gun. Would there be any benefit to adjusting for a slightly longer first stage? The second stage breaks at about 1 lb 11oz very crisply according to my inexpensive trigger gage.
I like a long first stage meself. As long as adjusting it doesn’t affect the second stage pull, and it shouldn’t, there is no disadvantage to making stage one longer.
When I went to adjust my trigger I found the 460 Magnum I received has the T05 trigger not the T06 as stated in the description on the Pyramyd Air web sight. Read your report on the T05 vs T06 and that explains the lack of creep you mentioned the second stage. I had thought I was just missing it (the creep) since the trigger is overall much better than anything I have on my other guns. Anyway I’m keeping the gun with the T05 trigger, gave the screw a slight turn counter clockwise and we’ll see how it shoots with the longer first stage tomorrow.
Thank you for reading everything I said before you made your decision. I find the T05 trigger to be just as nice as the T06 regardless of what others say.
Pyramyd Air has a problem keeping these guns straight. They get sipper with the old trigger from time to time and nobody tells them. The box may look one way and the trigger is still the T05.
Let us know how you like it.
There is an advantage to the T05 trigger you overlooked, I can use the UTG #DNA460 compensator mount you helped design if I find my scope is still creeping in the rings of the RWS Lockdown mount. In fact I may just order one along with a set of 30mm low Weaver rings (any suggestions as to which rings) and ditch the RWS Lockdown now that I know the DNA#460 will work on my gun.
Man I hate autocorrect the UTG compensator mount is a #DN460
I didn’t even think of that! Good call.
I have thought of a few “legends” that Umarex should add to their Legends line that the technology of the M712 could readily be used for.
Why not the MP40?
Or the Thompson?
Or the Sten?
Or the M4 “Grease Gun”?
Or the Uzi?
All of these had straight stick magazines and were definitely legendary.
I was surprised how realistic these BB pistols can be. I bought one of the Remington 1911-A1 and it breaks down like a 1911. When I shot it, the blowback of the slide gives you the sensation of firing a 1911 with less recoil and noise. In fact, I shot it the same as I did my 1911 to the left (it is a eye thing).
I shot it on a really damp day and tried rapid fire, the whole pistol froze solid.
That can be hard on the seals. The ice crystals are sharp and abrasive.
The CO2 should be moisture free I doubt you would get any ice forming where it can damage the power plant on a CO2 airgun.
The moisture comes from the air surrounding the gun.
I am new to ”leaving replies” but not new to reading your blog. And I would like to give you my deepest compliments and gratitude for writing this reviews. You have helped me a million times already.
As you will probably see, I have already left you a question under a review that you have made 8 years ago (RWS DIANA 350 MAGNUM).
But, just to make sure that you will see the question, I am asking you the same question here (I hope you don’t get mad):
What do you think; which calibre should I go for when buying a 350 MAGNUM? .177 or .22?
I will use the rifle for field targeting (50yds+) and hunting.
Is the trajectory with .22 very noticable?
For example; if I zero a DIANA 350 MAGNUM .22 on 30yds, how much compensation is needed to hit a mark on 65yds?
Thank you very much for helping, your blog is amazing!
Welcome to the blog Vito!
Please don’t let anyone like me run you off. This place is a wealth of knowledge and experience in the world of airguns.
As for which caliber should you buy? I will be very surprised if BB and others here recommend anything other than the .22 for what you are wanting. The .177 works well at 25 yards or less, but for long range shots you are going to want the .22. Even then, a 65 yard shot is a real long range shot with any air rifle, most especially with a spring piston air rifle.
I myself am in the market for a .22 sproinger. That Diana is a good choice.
Thank you RidgeRunner,
Hehe I know..sometimes, I can’t stop reading articles on this blog 🙂
I thought that the answer would be something like that yes, I think that I will order the .22 after all.
What about the trajectory? Any ideas how much compensation is needed?
For example 850ft/s muzzle velocity with 15.98grain JSB EXACT pellet, zeroed at 25 yds. Aprox. how much drop on 65yds? Any ideas?
Thank you RidgeRunner.
How much drop? I have no real idea. Like the Baron suggested, Chairgun Pro can really help.
Drop compensation over long ranges is the nature of the beast with airguns. If you accelerate a diabolo pellet to a fast enough velocity to eliminate drop, it becomes unstable and your accuracy suffers dramatically. Mil dot or similar scopes are great for air rifle use.
Welcome to the blog. Since .177 is the only caliber that can be fully successful in field target, that would be my pick for your new rifle.
I do want to caution you that the 350 Magnum cocks hard and is difficult to shoot accurately. But it is a fine airgun.
Let us know how it turns out.
I don’t exactly understand what do you mean by saying: can be fully successful in field target..
What I ment with field targeting was actually shooting at random things at random distances, with my own setup of terrain, marks and distance; not a competitive field targeting…
Thank you very much for answering but what I wish to know is:
What calibre would be the best choice for 350 Magnum if I wish an allround rifle used for:
what I’ve mentioned above, hunting small game.
What calibre gives the best performance of this gun?
And I am a bit scared of a very pronounced trajectory; should my fear be justified?
I’ve shot a Cometa 400 FENIX .22 before (self tuned for max. power) and the pellet trajectory was still ”well above the limits of acceptable”.
That makes ALL the difference in the world! Field target is a specific sport and .177 is the only caliber that is competitive.
But If you just want to plink and hunt with the rifle, then get the .22 caliber by all means. The powerplant is too powerful for the smaller caliber.
the .22 will be well-suited to the 350 Magnum.
thank you. I appreciate that you ”blessed” my thoughts and decision, for I have also been on the .22 side all the time. Now, I got the confirmation.
And the ”rumours” about the 350 Magnum being impossible to shoot accurately are also plain bull****, right?
I have also heard that barrel can be bent due to great amount of cocking force, any of that true or just RWS haters moaning?
Thank you, Vito
I know you’re new to the blog, so I want to give you a heads up that we don’t allow the use of foul language, even if you’re using **** to replace the letters. Our blog readers have children & grandchildren that read the blog, so we want to keep our site family friendly. I’ll let your comment stay live this time since you’re new here.
Thanks for understanding and please continue to use and enjoy the blog.
Thank you for warning and understanding. And please know that I didn’t mean any harm by using foul language and I guarantee that I will not do it again.
There is nothing special about my feelings on caliber. I am just one more person who has his own opinion.
Let me tell you a story about another Diana 350 Magnum. We have a reader named Fred, who lives in the People’s Republik of New Jersey. Fred asked me what I though about a Diana 350 Magnum years ago on this blog and I told him I thought it is a fine air rifle — powerful and accurate. Just be sure you understand that it is a magnum, and it therefore hard to cock and hard to shoot accurately.
Well, Fred respected my opinion, but he bought the rifle anyway. After he got it he told me he didn’t realize how hard it was going to be to cock. I have watched Fred drag that rifle to numerous airgun shows, trying to trade it for something that cocks a little easier. But he likes the rifle at the same time. He admits that once he learned how to hold it correctly (the artillery hold) it shot well. But it is so darned hard to cock.
I’m just saying.
Again, useful reply.
Will take the ”hard cocking” effort in consideration.
Do you know/think that DIANA RWS uses rimfire barrels for making their .22 air rifles?
I know for a fact that they absolutely do not use rimfire barrels. The rimfire .22 barrel is 0.2225-0.223-inches across, where an airgun .22 caliber barrel is 0.2165 to 0.218-inches across.
Suggest you do a search for Hawke ChairGun Pro and install it.
Then you can play around with pellet/velocity trajectories to determine what you’d consider acceptable.
Remember — for pretty much all models, the .177 will run a higher muzzle velocity, so don’t just plug in a velocity number and change from .177 to .22 in the program, and expect the results to be anywhere near realistic.
Thank you Baron,
will do that immediately.
If I could describe this gun in one word…..it would be “superb” in regards to everything about this beauty. The only thing is ,yesterday I discovered how it disassembles… accidentally. As described in this blog … the small triangular die-cast part fell out which I recovered but I was unaware of the hairspring mentioned at the time. I was successful reassembling it (after some trial and error on how the triangular piece fit) and the gun works fine. I didn’t discover this blog until after all this happened. My concern is the hairspring. I’m not sure if it fell out or not….but like I said the gun works fine. Can I assume the spring stayed in? If not is there a replacement available? I was also curious about the rectangular button on the right side under the rear sight that Charles Stoehr mentioned in an earlier comment. Is there any function to this?
Thank you for attention this blog
Welcome to the blog.
If the gun works fine, you can be sure the hairspring is inside. That part is essential to the operation of the gun. How you got it back in and working is a miracle, since the spring has to be retained to be under tension. It should not have worked so well.
My apologies for this late reply…been out of town. Thanks for your feedback. I agree…it was a miracle.
I was very lucky. I just feel bad for the next person this happens to with lesser results. I went thru the manual thoroughly and the only warning I found #10 Repair /Service/Warranty and all that says is “DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DISASSEMBLE IT”. It’s a shame they weren’t more specific about this feature of the gun. It’s an accident waiting to happen.
My concern is the hairspring. I’m not sure if it fell out or not….but like I said the gun works fine
-This is a sear spring (part # S15). As I understand it, it is needed for a full auto mode. By the way, did you get an explored view schematic and parts list with your pistol? Study it carefully and you’ll avoid problems. The M712 is designed and manufactured by KWC and its designation is KMB-18DHN. You can also find an explored view online.
No, there was no exploded view or schematic with the gun I am testing.
B.B. did the instruction manual come together with the gun? That exploded view is on the back of the manual. All the parts are listed there, too. My M712 was purchased in Canada, from a retailer importing directly from KWC. It came with the manual, Allen key and spare magazine cap. By the way, the guns being imported directly from KWC don’t have white markings and the presentation box is quite different than the Umarex one.
You have a KWC 712. Mine is from Umarex, USA, and there is no schematic in the manual.
The KWC M712 and Umarex M712 are exactly the same pistols manufactured by KWC. Umarex USA is just a distributor. Why doesn’t Umarex provide the original KWC manual in a box?! That’s is a bit weird. The manual and, in particular, the exploded view of the gun is very useful.
Blue Devil USA,
Or would you prefer I call you Henry. Allow me to also welcome you to the blog. If you saw my question about the rectangular button on the right side of the M712, then perhaps you also saw B.B.’s reply with the youtube video link. If not, scroll back up and watch the video. According to the video, the rectangular button appears to hold the bolt in place.
Blue Devil USA,
Or would you like me to reply to you as Henry? Let me also welcome you to the blog. If you saw my question about the rectangular, then perhaps you saw B.B.’s reply with the YouTube video link. If not, here’s the link.
According to the video, the rectangular button, called the recoil spring abutment as B.B. said, holds in the recoil spring inside the bolt.
My apologies for this late reply…been out of town. Thanks for your feedback and the video link. Wouldn’t it be nice to have the real thing. Check out this video…I found it along side yours. Be careful not to drool on your keyboard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzqbJeDHK64
For you 22XX and 23XX fans out there, I stumbled on this dude in New Zealand who is converting a couple of these things to HPA and .30 caliber. One of them has an eight inch barrel and spits five JSBs downrange at an average of 850 FPS. Shooting an 85 grain hollowpoint that averages 650 FPS, it produces a pretty nice cloverleaf at 35 yards.
I just might have to keep my eyes open for one of these things.
Got a link?
Here it is.
93 FPE! Outta 7.2″ barrel. Astounding! What would be an equivalent modern firearm cartridge? I know many of you don’t even have to think out that.
I second that, Got a link
very cool. I wish I had a 3 in1 mill/lathe setup.
Hmm, the one tool Daddy doesn’t have? Isn’t Christmas comin’ up?
Yea it is but it would have to be Santa bringing it to me, because I don’t think any one else would think I have been a good boy.
I do have some good news though I got my Barcode letter from SSA last Friday and got my doc to write me a letter explaining why I cannot work a 40 hour a week job anymore and going to fax the info to them tomorrow for them to decide if they can approve my disability without the need for a hearing. So hopefully by the end of the year Santa will be giving me an even better and bigger present in the form of my disability benefits that I have paid for all my working life to earn the right to have approved.
That’s good about your claim coming together! They’re gonna push mine to the last day.The 17th of this month marks 6 long months of waiting for approval since signing the forms from my hospital bed When the assessing doctor asked if I could walk to the waiting room door my right leg started bouncing and didn’t stop until he had already written a buncha stuff down. He asked me”What’s that?” I said you’re the doctor, you tell me I musta forgot what I was supposed to be doing because I didn’t make it to the door until the assessment was over.It looks like I’ll be getting MRI’s of my back and hips when it finally does happen. My doc wants ’em but asked what insurance I’d be using. I said”SSA’s!”
It’s not your fault if it seems like that don’t make sense.It’s only about half of what I “remember” writing. Good Luck!
It all makes sense and sound like you should not have even needed to wait to be approved but then that’s our caring gov’t for you I hope you get on the 17th as you need it from all that you have said you have dealt with since I got on the blog.
I applied in November 6th 2013 so its coming up on one year for me waiting and getting worse all the time. My doc wrote a very good letter that I hope gets me benefits very soon as the money is starting to run out and I am having to sell my toys to stay above water and be able to buy some new toys. I am using Obummercare right now and it is not that bad as long as I can stay out of the hospital because it will not cover the first 2000 dollars of costs if I have to be admitted.
Lets just hope we both get what we both worked and paid into to be there when we need it now because they are draining the bank more every day. Darn commie politicians and White House occupant in DC.
I recently purchased a Umarex Legends M712 “Schnellfeuer” and it is a very nice CO2 pistol. I even more recently discovered this blog and am trying to understand where to post this comment – hopefully the “Comment” window is the proper place.
This air gun runs very well indeed. As I have seen on the blog, the loading process and lack of a bolt hold open are the only things that can be faulted and that is minor. Sights are not so good for these old eyes with retina disease, but it is still a fun product.
One thing I have noticed when CO2 becomes very low (really time to retire the cartridge), and selected to semi-auto, is the air gun will quickly exhaust the CO2 cartridge on full-auto. Any comments on this appreciated.
Welcome to the blog.
You can post questions about anything dealing with airguns on the current page, or you can go back to a specific report like you have.
True semiauto CO2 guns nearly always go full-auti when the gas gets low. The valve cannot deal with the dropping pressure, so it flaps open and closed rapidly until exhausted.
Thank you. I thought something similar, but your explanation is better presented.
I also recently purchased the Umarex Legends P.08 (blow-back model) and that is even nicer to use due to size and weight distribution. But the M712 is truly unique; and near infinitely cheaper than any full-auto firearm.
There is so much information to be gleaned from this blog as to be a new career. 8^)