by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
• Test structure
• Discount store pellets
• Commence shootin’
• Uh, oh!
• What’s next?
Today, we’ll begin the test I’ve been thinking about for so many years. Namely, how do bargain pellets sold in discount and sporting goods stores compare to premium pellets when shot from airguns that are accurate? I know we all harbor secret feelings on this subject, and today I’ll start a little test to see how those feelings turn out in the real world.
In no way is the test I’m about to show you conclusive. There isn’t enough data for that. All it does, if anything, is point out the possibilities that exist for all these pellets when they’re used under the test conditions. Run a second test, and the results will be different. BUT — and this is the very heart of what I’m doing in this test — if my supposition is correct and premium pellets do perform better than bargain pellets, then we might see something worth considering here.
And for the record, let me say this: I will not compare the relative prices for each of the pellets against how well they perform. That’s not what I’m after. I’m not looking for a relative index of performance. When I shoot, I shoot to hit the target. Anything that helps me do that is good, and anything that does not help is not good. In other words, I will not shoot a 70 percent effective pellet, just because it costs only 30 percent as much as the best pellet. I shoot to hit, and only the best will do.
That said, I’ll acknowledge that mistakes will be made when measuring group size. I’ve said that often enough in this blog. While I will not attempt to develop a “fudge factor” for group sizes, I will look at all the groups with to determine if I think they might do significantly better if given a second or third try.
My guess is that some bargain pellets will do better than expected, while others do worse. My plan is to take this test to 50 yards and run it again, with premium pellet(s) and bargain pellets that came close or even exceeded the premium pellets’ performance.
At the end of this test, I hope to have a clear picture of how premium pellets perform in comparison to bargain pellets.
Test structure
Today, all shooting will be indoors and off a rest at 25 yards. I’m using my .177-caliber Beeman R8 that has been tuned and also installed in a Tyrolean stock. It has a Burris 4.5-14X32 scope. I received this air rifle as a gift several years ago. Since that time, I’ve used it in several tests where accuracy was required. In one of those tests, I discovered that the Air Arms Falcon domed pellet is the one this rifle likes the best, and that’s the only premium pellet I’ll shoot in this test. Since I’ve demonstrated that this pellet out-shoots all others in this rifle, there’s no need to shoot anything else. The head size of this pellet is 4.52mm.
I’ll also rest the rifle directly on the sandbag. This R8 allows me to do that and still get top accuracy. And that reduces the chances for me to influence the test by changing my hold at any point.
Beeman R8 Tyrolean is now my go-to airgun.
Air Arms Falcons are best in my Beeman R8.
Discount store pellets
I purchased the bargain pellets at two different stores. One was a large chain sporting goods store and the other was a discount store that I’m sure anyone living in the U.S. will know quite well. There was no discrimination here. I bought every .177-caliber pellet they had! The wadcutters have already been used in the target rifle test that I ran in Parts 2 and 3, so today I will be shooting only the pellets that are not wadcutters.
The sample size is quite large, considering the sources. Here are the pellets I bought:
- Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum 10.5-grain domes
- Crosman Premier Hollow Point
- Winchester 300-count dial-a-pellet: This choice gave me a pointed pellet, a dome and a hollowpoint.
- Gamo Silent Cat: A domed pellet they advertise a “very quiet” pellet — whatever that means!
- Gamo Pointed Hollow Point: Just a hollowpoint that’s really just a point in the center of the hollowpoint hole.
- Benjamin Hollow Point: Crosman Premier hollowpoints under a different name and made for discount and chain stores. 750 to a tin.
- Crosman Destroyer EX: These look the same as regular Destroyer pellets (pointed hollowpoint) but have the EX in their titles to differentiate them for sales to certain vendors.
That makes 9 bargain pellets I acquired for this test. Some of them are available from Pyramyd AIR, while some have slightly different names, like the Destroyer EX, and others, like the Gamo pellets, seem to not be available except in discount and sporting goods chain stores.
These are all the bargain pellets in this test. The Gamo pellets have no identification on the tin, and after they come out of the blister pack, you have to label them yourself to know what you have.
I’m sure your hardware store has different pellets. I simply bought everything that was on the shelves. If it was there, I bought it and it’s in this test. There will always be bargain pellets I haven’t tested; and if you want to test them, please do. I will be glad to publish your results as a guest blog.
Commence shootin’
There are 10 pellets (Falcon plus 9 bargain pellets) in this test, with 10 shots for each at 25 yards. That’s 100 shots if I finish all the groups. I’ll show you the groups today with the sizes, and save my comments for Monday’s blog.
First up was the Falcon pellet. This will give us a baseline for the rifle on this day. Ten Falcons went into 0.463 inches at 25 yards. That isn’t the smallest group I’ve ever shot with this rifle and pellet, but it’s representative of what can be done at any random point in time.
Ten Falcons went into 0.463 inches.
Next, I tried the first bargain pellet — a Crosman Premier Ultra Mag. Ten of them went into 0.645 inches and stayed together very well.
Ten Premier Ultra Magnum pellets went into 0.645 inches at 25 yards.
Next up were the Crosman Premier Hollow Points. Ten of them made a 0.843-inch group that had several outliers.
Ten Premier Hollow Points made this 0.843-inch group.
Next up were the Crosman Destroyer EX pellets that are pointed hollowpoints. Ten of them went into 1.083 inches with several outliers.
Ten Crosman Destroyer EX pellets went into 1.083 inches.
Next came the 3 Winchester pellets that came in the dial-a-pellet plastic dispenser. I tried the pointed pellets first and netted a 1.143-inch group that has 2 pellets outside the main group. Next I tried the hollowpoints and did better. Ten of them went into a 0.598-inch group that has no strays, though is is elongated. Finally, I tried the Winchester domes and 10 went into 0.697 inches between centers.
Ten Winchester pointed pellets went into 1.143 inches at 25 yards.
Ten Winchester hollowpoints went into 0.598 inches.
Ten Winchester domes made this 0.697-inch group.
Uh, oh!
Then, a not-so-funny thing happened. I shot the first 2 Gamo Silent Cat pellets (they are a long dome) and found they’re not silent in the slightest. They also landed 3.696 inches apart on the target! I took one more shot and missed the backstop altogether and that ended the test of this pellet. These are sinker larvae, by which I mean they are suitable for fishing weights but not as pellets — at least not in my Beeman R8!
Two shots don’t make a group; but when the third one misses the trap, you stop! Shot 2 with the Gamo Silent Cat is at the extreme bottom of this image. I had to zoom the camera out to get both shots in the frame.
After that, I was nervous about shooting the Gamo Pointed Hollow Points, but I didn’t need to worry. Ten of them went into a 0.756-inch group that was in pretty much the same place all the other pellets had been hitting.
Gamo Pointed Hollow Points put 10 in 0.756 inches at 25 yards.
The last pellet I tested was the Benjamin Hollow Point that I said was very much the same as the Premier Hollow Point. Ten of them made a group that measured 0.971 inches between centers.
Ten Benjamin Hollow Points went into 0.971 inches.
What’s next?
So that was the test. In the next report, I’ll elaborate on the performance of all the pellets and look at 2 bargain pellets that did pretty good.
Well? I was reading Christmas gift Part 3? And went to eat Thanks meal! And returned to fini Christmas gift read? And had a new POST! Thank you!
Awesome so far! I bought one of those Dial a Pellet under the Daisy brand, and it was really disappointing. They had two sides full of the Pointed and one full of Hollow Points with a few Domes scattered in there. It was short almost 50 pellets, and the skirts were all mashed up to boot!
I hope you had a little fun with this test, it looks like there are worse ways to spend the day. 😉
Qjay,
BB just answered you on yesterday’s blog that The Challenger and the Edge should be on the list. I cannot vouch for the Challenger, but the Edge is an awesome little air rifle to have in your collection. They are both for ten meter shooting, so they are not powerhouses, but are light and very accurate.
Right now I have my Edge set up as a mini-sniper. When this La Cucaracha goes away and I start getting more seasonal weather, I will have to drag it out and shoot some of the minis running around here.
Watch out for the Bazooka Guys! One of them hits you in the air tank and it’ll be a real experience. I hear the guys with the BAR can be pretty intimidating, too!
LOL!
I might have to pick me up some of those. My grandson probably would not mind either.
Actually, I was thinking of cheese puff balls. They are a good size, a nice bright orange so they are easy to spot and the critters will eat them up so I do not have to worry about clean up afterward.
RR
Those cheese balls do not make very good targets for the most part. Better coon and possum bait.
Guess you could compare it to shooting a sponge. Pellets will pass through, or take out small pieces, but they do not shatter. They will roll around on bare ground, though.
twotalon
Good thing to keep in mind. I have also been thinking of Mini Ritz crackers.
Likely this spring I will start teaching my grandson to shoot. I am thinking of starting him off with balloons and then as he improved, make flour paste targets with food coloring in smaller and smaller sizes as he gets better. The popping and shattering targets will make it more fun. That and outshooting Gadada. 😉
The rain and the critters will clean up the mess.
TT
Did you ever get that Air Arms 500 shooting the way you wanted. I hope I’m remembering right. It was a 500 wasn’t it?
And you were messing with the metal mags. Did they work out?
GF1
That was a 500 . No, never got it better than 3/8″ at 25 (10 shots) with 18 gr Exacts.
Metal mags do not shoot quite as good, but really hurt starlings with a closer shot.
I could try a few other things to see why it won’t shoot tighter than this. Would like to see a quarter inch, but can live with it as is.
Speaking of starlings….
Had one hanging around the suet block out back for at least a couple weeks. Hoped it would bring it’s friends in for lunch, but never happened . Ran out of patience this morning.
Took the 500 to the basement to verify POI for the 10 yd shot out the back door. Was going to use wadcutters for fun.
They shot so horribly at full power in the basement that a sparrow could escape with only the loss of a few feathers. Only fit for plinking oil drums.
Cut the velocity back to somewhere around 600 fps and got groups plenty tight for the job.
A half hour later, the starling took one from left to right…… straight through the wing feathers. Both holes quite obvious.
twotalon
TT
I have been slowing the tune down on some of my guns. Definatly helped.
Haven’t had the same amount of starlings that we normally have which doesn’t hurt my feelings.
And glad you got your starling. What pellet did you use?
GF1
Used H&N Sport. Nothing like a wadcutter for pidgeons and smaller at fairly close ranges . Real snot knockers. Used to shoot them backwards out of the 1400 back in the old days with 10 pumps .
twotalon
TT
Don’t get me started on that backwards shooting stuff.
🙂
And yep them flat face pellet’s sure do make them starlings go pop when they hit. 🙂
GF1
Wouldn’t ya know it !!!! Just had another starling on the suet block !!! Thought I only had one. Well, there is always tomorrow.
It’s up to you to guess what kind of foul language I used when this happened.
twotalon
TT
I’m thinking that I know exactly what words you used.
😉
Maybe a topic for some other time is what makes premium pellets premium? How different are they from bargain pellets? Is there a larger difference in weight encountered or is there a larger variety in diameter? Since there are Crosman premium and budget pellets are they made in separate lines or are they manufactured all the same and the premium ones are selected?
Siraniko,
The short answer to your queries about what makes premium pellets premium is – yes.
In most cases tighter quality control, sorting by weight and measurement, etc. is involved, which means more labor, which means more cost. That is why you will see someone like H&N who will have two or three grades of wadcutters in the same weight range.
Some on the other hand will put the word premium on their packaging whether there is any quality control involved or not. I will not buy Gamo pellets because of my past experience with such. The first tin of pellets I ever ordered from PA were Gamo. When I opened them up almost every single pellet had “wings” from the mold. One even had wings that were over an inch across. I still have that tin of pellets. PA graciously sent me another tin of my choice.
Like BB said above, if you are into accuracy, you hunt around for the pellet that works best in that particular airgun. More often than not, it will not come from Wally World.
I was sort of hoping that was the case. I just wonder if the bargain pellets were selected and were regular enough in size and weight they could give the premiums a run for the money.
Siraniko, In the first of this series, I asked BB If he was going to weigh, sort, inspect, etc, to filter those bargain pellets down to the best ones out of the package, and he said that was not in the plans. You can spend some time and effort on bargain pellets to make sure you are getting only the best ones, but it seems to be the general consensus that even then, buying better pellets will still often give you better results.
For me, I can’t shoot that well anyhow, and most of my guns are way more accurate than I am, but that said, your mileage may vary. The only way to to figure it out is really to try it several ways.
The articles here are pretty good, and there have been other tests BB has done over the years to help determine the best pellets to use in your particular gun or guns. Check his posts here (search “pellets” on the right side of the page, for example) and his other published columns. *cough-cough-shotgunnews-cough* to do some learning on this and MANY MANY MANY other topics.
Have a great Black Friday all!
Neither can I shoot as good as I should. Hmm… Investing in a good scale to weigh the pellets after resizing them then regrouping them by weight might lead to better accuracy from budget pellets. Reserve the best for serious work and the rest for plinking fun which is 90% of the time.
LOL! It might be cheaper to buy the premium in the first place.
Yeah it might be but in this economy especially in my corner of the world where the cost of imported premium pellets are sold at twice the cost that you can purchase over there it just might be worth it.
I do not know how easy or cheaply the Crosman Premier line is over there, but my experience has been that even the discount store tins are pretty good. The jury is still out on whether the boxed CPLs are really that much better than the ones in the tin.
RidgeRunner, Did you let Gamo know about the “wings”? They are a great marketing company. I bet they could run with those! Pellets with “wing” design. They help the pellet “fly” to the intended target. Then maybe show someone take down a bear with the 177 cal break barrel @ 75 yrds. do to the extra lift and flight of the “wings” LOL. Geez.
You know what’s funny though.
I did get a tin of Crosman premier heavys in a tin from wally world and they had the wings. I will say it was only one tin though.
But I have never found any pellets with the wings in the Crosman box premier’s.
The only issue is getting the wings to fit inside the bore.
I think I prefer pellet’s without wings.
I would bet they would try to fly away. Its hard enough to train the normal pellets.
Belated Thanksgiving day! By the way.
Having a large collection of oldish Webley’;s, Relum’s, and BSA’s, i find i get better results with the cheaper pellets on the market, as a rule. Also i have found that the Crosman pellets to be as reliable and as expensive (that is in the UK you understand) as the likes of Falcons and AA Diablo’s, so was mildly surprised to find them on the cheap list. Hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving in the US, it’s something that we in the UK don’t have an alternative too. Which i think is a bit of a shame however in my own way i shall give thanks for this great blog and all the super people on the all the airgun forums out there, the fact my 4 year old daughter loves tomatoes and ‘My Little Pony’ as i can keep her quiet for hours while i Internet away and fix up my old air rifles, and the fact that i can now read all my old favourite graphic novels on You tube. I’m sure I’m missing the point here but what do you expect, I’m British.
TTFN
Best wishes, Wing Commander Sir Nigel Tetlington Smythe.
The box stores across the US are saturated with cheap crosman airguns (which is not a bad thing,) and one of the only pellets that fill the shelves next to them are crosman premiers, there are a few more now, gamo, ruger, but besides that the dial a pellet has been the only other thing, and the others only joined the party on the last maybe 3 years. Ruger just this year. So the crosmans have sort of been pigeon holed, that and consistent flyers from cphps. BB, I believe “quiet pellet” is the third sale gamo makes… super mag rifle, gimmick sound blaster pba, then, oh wait, here are the quiet pellets, sorry. Didn’t mean to get the cops called on you. Lol.that’s probably why they flipped out in your gun, longer projectile for higher velocity, so said the science, so probably wouldn’t work anywhere but your Extreme 1250, if it were .177..
That and the twist rate stuff, I forget the name, but it said 1:16 twist wanted average of, in .177, a low of .26 to a high of .31″ length projectile.
Have you done any further testing of the Marauder .25 since that done in 2013 concerning accuracy? Seems that at that time you were not real happy with the .25 cal. due to lack of good pellets.
How would you compare the Marauder .25 to the Hatsab 44 and/or Hatsan 65 bot in .25 cal.?
Lionel,
I wasn’t that happy with the Marauder .25, but I haven’t tested the Hatsans, so I can’t make a comparison.
B.B.
Thanks BB! I was thinking about a Marauder in either .25 or .22 Cal. The .25 in now off the table!
Mike
Mike
I think you will be missing out if cross the .25 cal. Marauder of the list.
I had a gen.1 and now a gen.2 synthetic stock .25 cal. rifle and it shoots very good with 31 grn. H&N Barracuda’s.
Thanks for the update!
Mike
Talk about coincidence,…I just posted a not-to-favorable comment on the Crossman Premier Ultra Mags. and happen to have also been shooting the Benjamin hollow points in my Beretta 92FS. Got both at………..you guessed it! I got some calipers wed. after work and sorted some Benjamins by head size yesterday, about 150. ( a scale is next ) Without counting, the largest group was .177 and got progressively smaller up to .180. A pile of .176 was the same size as the .180 pile. I used an egg carton as a sort bin so it was easy to compare pile sizes. The best group is .885 @ 24ft. Of the two, the Benjamins win hands down, at least for my gun. Thanks for all the great testing!!!
Chris,
That is the hard way of making inexpensive pellets better. You can sort them a couple different ways and the sorted pellets should shoot like the larger groups shown above — I mean without the fliers.
B.B.
Interesting that the Winchester hollow points edged out the Winchester domed pellets. Does anyone know who makes these Winchester pellets?
I never paid attention to the graphics on the air arms falcon pellet tins. UNTIL TODAY! The enlarged picture today made me do a double take. Does anyone know the model of the PCP that was used in this photo? Spectacular piece of walnut. Must assume it’s an air arms gun on an air arms pellet tin?
The gun looks like an air arms S410 with the magazine protruding but the bolt sticking out the side with two slotted positions, ala fx tarantula, has me stumped. It’s not an old air arms classic since the bolt is at the back on those guns. Would someone please NAME THAT GUN since it’s driving me crazy.
kevin
Kevin,
Now that you mentioned it, I enlarged the screen 30 times and see a very strange looking insect walking on the side of that rifle’s barrel. It has a large abdomen and a very small thorax. Does anyone know what species this is? And would it be a good subsititute for a mayfly in the spring opening season?
B.B.
Spring opening season? When I was a whole lot younger we used to have that insanity around here. I went once and that was it. Thankfully, they have changed it around to all year long. They just stock twice in the spring and twice in the fall.
And no, no trout in it’s right mind would eat that thing. It’s a zhu zhu fly.
I’m guessing that the airgun on the lid of air arms falcon pellets is a prototype that evolved from the old s4xx series with a bolt at the rear to what we now know as the s4xx/s5xx with a side lever.
kevin
I can’t help with the gun, but the Daisy Dial-a-Pellet I bought is packaged exactly the same just a different logo. No weights posted on it, which is the same as these according to a comment posted on the product page BB linked in the article.
As for the gun? No clue.
I believe the Daisy dial-a-pellet has a slightly different assortment–wadcutter in place of domed I think–but the container and pellets sure look similar.
I believe achieving top results with pellets involves the fit of the pellet in the rifle or pistol plus consistency from pellet to pellet. In the latter respect, this involves weight, head size, shape and perhaps tail size. We’ve read in past blogs how serious 10M and field target competitors not only weigh a tin of pellets and discard those outside of a certain range of weight but will also resort to rolling them on a table or sheet of glass to see if any are “out of round” so to speak. Some also lubricate the pellets with their own secret blend of oils. So I will wonder if the Falcons’ specs, at least for weight, are more uniformly consistent than say the Benjamin Hollow Points or premium ultra mags? I’ve measured head sizes for giggles and can tell you this is very tedious procedure.
Fred DPRoNJ
I agree, I measured for awhile after the first gamo bc domed were great then the second tin were a pile of mouse turds, started measuring that second tin and was very disappointed. Would rather someone had measured them BEFORE I bought them!
Every gun that I have seen BB use the Falcons in have all had a small variation in fps. Like only 6 to 9 fps spread.
Consistency plays a big part in accuracy. I would bet if you measured the head and skirt diameter and weighed the Falcons right out of the tin that they are all pretty consistently made.
From what I have seen with the other quality brand pellets like JSB and H&N that the pellets are very consistent out of the tin.
I’m sure that’s what’s lacking in store bought pellet’s verses the other premium brand pellets.
Another thing is missing in the store bought pellets again because of quality control is one tin to another could be different. I found that the premium brand pellets will be the same from tin to tin.
So that plays a big part in the out come. One tin shoots good from the store bought pellets then the next not so good. That usually does not happen with the premium brand pellets .
B.B.
You were talking about using your RWS 34P in this test, are you still going to shoot with that rifle?
I bought all the cheap pellets I could at wally world and found all of them went super sonic in my 460 Magnum so I never shot for accuracy with them. Probably going to try them again when I get my HW50S (11% off, free shipping and 3X Bullseye Bucks) next week I think in that rifle they will stay sub sonic and may group better. I’ll post my results if any of the cheap ones do OK.
Happy Black Friday
David
David,
Yes, I do plan on shooting this same test with the Diana 34P. As for supersonic pellets, I found that velocity doesn’t really hurt accuracy the way we all thought. Vibration hurts accuracy much more than velocity. Look at this 11-part test:
/blog/2011/12/pellet-velocity-versus-accuracy-test-part-11/
B.B.
B.B.
I read that blog some time ago, the reason I didn’t shoot for accuracy was I didn’t want to shoot 30 or 40 super sonic rounds in my yard and upset the neighbors. My 460 Magnum didn’t do to bad with 7gr R-10 Match Pistol or H&N Baracuda Green so I am aware speed is not an issue by itself.
David
David
How’s it going.
So you did order a HW50s? Or you going to.
I just opened my Walther LGU in .22 caliber. All I can say is nice. Getting ready to put the scope on now and start breaking it in.
Gunfun
Just placed the order for the HW50S about an hour ago should have it Wednesday.
Looking forward to your impressions of the LGU and some chrony data on the.22 cal.
David
Gunfun
Just got the confirmation email on my order.
David
David
Good deal. I want to know what you think of the 50 when you get it. You said you wanted to get the .177 cal. right.
And I will chrony the LGU. I usually don’t on the spring guns till after about 1000 shots through it. They tend to change as they break in. And a 1000 may be a little much. But that’s usually good or if I see the groups getting more consistent and don’t smell no detination from the factory lube.
But yes I will post some fps numbers from it. But I got to get shooting it first. 🙂
Gunfun,
Yeah, ordered the HW50S in .177cal. It is going to replace the Ruger Air Hawk which I gave to my daughter.
After some break in I will post my impressions of the HW50S here for sure.
David
David
I was getting consistent groups already. And got smoke on the first 2 shots. And after about 30 or so shots couldn’t smell anymore detonation so I chronyed it. I know BB is doing the .177 cal. version so we will have to wait to see if the velocity holds true for that caliber.
But here is 10 shots with 15.89 JSB’s. And I will say that they fit a little more snug in this gun than other guns shot them out of. So I’m guessing that’s why the gun is grouping good. Who knows but here’s the numbers.
594
593
600
593
593
594
595
599
599
598
And I will say mine has the plastic trigger and was dead on out of the box the way I like them. A long first stage. A distinct stop at the second stage just a slight bit more pressure and the shot goes off. I bet its got to be no more than 2 pounds all the way through. Matter of fact its the way I adjust the trigger on the TX. The triggers feel the same.
Gunfun,
My 460 Magnum has the T05 trigger so no issue with plastic for me. I’ll be interested to see how the Rekord and the T05 triggers compare.
David
David
I’m curious to see how the .177 LGU does in velocity if it matches what they claim. But I’m with BB that hopefully it will shoot a little slower than the 1000 fps that they say. That is a bit fast. But they could of used a 7.5 grn pellet also on the .177 gun.
We will have to see what BB says about the .177 cal. model. But they were pretty well on the money on the .22 cal. model of 12 fpe and 593 fps.
I wish I had some 14 grn pellets because I would of chronyed them to see what the fps was. I’m guessing they would have to be in the upper 600’s to maybe 700 fps even.
Pity trigger units are so gun specific… Otherwise I could see a nice technical report series here, comparing the various trigger architectures…
The Gamo/GRT-III (and T01) with the forward pivot and “rising” trigger action
The Rekord
Maybe the IZH/Baikal 46
Crosman Silhouette (second model)
and others that are billed as adjustable (let’s skip the non-adjustable world as those would just be “bad/OK” — but adjustables with tweaks AND an explanation of how to make such tweaks on that style).
Gunfun1
Nice numbers for your new Walther LGU in.22cal. Looks like no more then a 7 fps difference from slowest to fast. It sounds like your gun will be a keeper to hand down to grand kids one day. The reason I buy a quality airgun is for accuracy, build, and the fact they hardly need any serious maintenance over their life span. That’s not to say I don’t take mine apart to see what makes them tick, and do my own special lube, etc. Its just good to know that its going to be a performer right out of the box.
It would be much appreciated if you would post some numbers on group size when you get a chance.
Ciao
Titus
TG
I will do better here’s a 10 shot group at 50 yards and also a picture of where the target is placed. Its with the 15.89 JSB’s.
And I know most people like .177 cal. for field target but I think it would be safe to say this .22 cal. LGU could be used for field target.
http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag362/gcars/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141128_163010829_zps42f6c787.jpg
http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag362/gcars/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141128_171316498_zps4b0314f7.jpg
GF1,
That is what I want to see! I have been looking for 1 MOA at 50 yards with a sproinger! I have been quite sure the TX would deliver, but now there is another. With grouping like that I would not hesitate to shoot a squirrel, rabbit or dove in the head at that range. Now you will have to start the search for ‘the pellet’.
RR
Now you know I posted the picture of my best group.
I think it would be good for some small critters. It was thumping my steel spinners pretty good yesterday.
And I didn’t post any pictures of groups with the TX after the Vortek 12 fpe kit installed but will group just as good.
The LGU has a little bump when it shoots. I mean just a little bump. The TX is dead calm with the tune kit. Before the tune kit it had a slight,slight bump.
And both guns are definatly built with quality in mind.
And a better pellet than the JSB 15.89 for the LGU. Maybe so but I think the two are a good match right now. Its time to just shoot and have fun now. 🙂
Gunfun1, Hello, Wow that is some great groups, especially for such a new gun. This last spring I had a tough decision deciding between a Marauder or a TX200 in .177. I got the Marauder as we were talking about a few weeks ago, but the TX200 is on the short list. Now it looks like a harder decision with the looks and performance of the LGU. The stress we put ourselves through! I did finally get that single shot tray for the M-rod. I had it in a order that was waiting for a out of stock item trying to keep the free shipping. The order kept getting postponed because that item was not coming in as expected. Finally a week ago I added my birthday present to that list and got everything but the out of stock item moving. My birthday present is a Crossman Silhouette. Everything came last Wed. I got a BSA red dot sight for it. WOW! It is a fabulous shooter, .6″ groups with a dot sight at 20 yards. The shots hit consistently at the top of the dot. The smile is frozen on my face. When we last spoke we talked about a falling disk target I made, you asked to see it. I have added a link to a video of it in action. My son was shooting it with the M-rod yesterday. We had a great day shooting those two guns. I live near Monterey Bay, the weather here is pretty gentle compared with most of the rest of the nation, no snow here like your picks displayed. Hope you are doing well. This is the first time I have posted a video. Lets see if that old dog can really learn a new trick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rmdJkUjTCY
Mark
I like that target. Did it take you long to make?
I was pleasantly surprised to see my post had shown up on the blog this morning, I gave up last night thinking it hadn’t posted successfully. I spent about 20 hours building that target, being a design in-progress with what scrap and/or inexpensive material I could find. It will probably take me half that time with the next one, I need one with slightly larger disks for an intermediate distance.
Mark
Mark
I bet you could sell them if you made some. I would like one that has the disk size you have now with the addition of that bigger size disc your talking about. So it would have all three sizes in a row and repeating across the target.
Cool stuff.
Yea, with a little practice building them it could be streamlined into a easy process. But then it would become a job:( I already got one of them. I think the occasional trade would keep it interesting and enjoyable. If I ever find someone tired of their TX 200 or LGU I’ll work something out. I might have to build an entire range to make that deal.
Mark
Pretty sure the TX and LGU are going to stick around.
But I think your onto something with that target. And it looks like you made it pretty sturdy and should withstand some misplaced pellet’s. If you get to making some give me a holler.
GF, It is interesting that on my screen many of your posts don’t have a reply button (The word “reply” printed in blue) on them. looking back through this string of posts it only seems to be your posts, all the rest of them have a reply button. Am I doing something wrong?
Mark
No the comments are running out of post area on mine. The thread is getting thin they call it.
When you respond yours are starting fresh in a sense.
Usually if we keep the conversation going like now we would say let’s move to the bottom. Which would be the bottom of the page. Then s person would start the conversation there. And both people talking would now to be watching for the first comment down there. Then it would start back with both having reply buttons.
Like now I will make a reply down there so you can see.
Please PA.Oldman, do come back and tell us what you think about the HW50 once you get to shoot it. Very interested in that rifle. Looks like a winner. Congrats.
Bradly,
I will do just that. Ordered some Falcons to try in it, specs on the HW50S are close to B.B.’s R8 so since both are Weihrauch’s thought the Falcons might be a good choice for the 50S. Also ordered some JSB Match Diabolo Exact RS pellets which may be the same pellet as the Falcon since I understand that JSB makes the Air Arms pellets. Wednesday is the eta on the HW50S hope I still have some light when the FedEx truck arrives.
David
David,
Be very interesting to hear how the jsb rs and air arms falcons perform in your new HW50.
When Mac did his pellet testing on a new HW50 his best pellet outperformed all others by a wide margin. You can read about it here:
/blog/2010/07/testing-the-hw-50s-part-3-2/
kevin
Kevin,
Thanks for the link, I had already read the report before placing my order. Mac’s testing tended to indicate the HW50S liked lighter pellets so I think the Falcons may be a good match for this gun. I have a tin of these on order as well as a tin of the 7.33gr JSB Diabolo Exact RS pellets. I will also try the Crosman pellets he shot and my collection of Wally World cheepo pellets that go super sonic in my 460 Magnum
David.
My r10 (hw85) loves the 4.50 rws R10 match pellets. With the anschuetz diopter fitted, it shoots 6mm holes at 10 meter. They are expensive, but if youre looking for accuracy, you might wanna try these. They are as accurate as the H&N finale match, and proved tot be very effective as a hunting pellet in my fwb 300s, up tot 25 meters.
I tested several batches of the r10match with my gunsmith, for my fwb 300s. When we found the best batch, I bought all these tins. My wallet still hurts!!!!
B.B.,
I have a few comments about today’s report. First, I was quite surprised you did not use a PCP since they are easier to shoot than a break barrel, hence much less tiring and typically more accurate. I do see that you shoot the R8 extremely well but it has to be much more tiring than one of your best PCPs.
What kind of target paper are you using? The holes made by the pellets are very ragged which must make them harder to measure.
Last, I am as surprised at how well the Winchester hollow points did as I am shocked at how badly the Gamo Silent Cat’s performed, almost dangerously. What a ridiculous claim…… silent pellets?.
G&G
G&G,
I used breakbarrel springers (and will continue to use them) because they are what most shooters have. I don’t want to sit in an ivory tower and tell people what is possible, if it’s beyond their grasp. That’s also why I chose not to use my TX200. While I will agree that most shooters cannot lay their hands on an R8 like mine, I had to draw the line somewhere. I wanted one lower-powered spring rifle and one higher-powered one, and I don’t own an R7.
I’m shooting at National Target Co. targets that are made of very fine target paper stock. The holes are not round because most of the pellets are domes and pointed.
The Winchester hollowpoints surprised me, too. I just kept squeezing the trigger and they kept going to the same place. It will be interesting to see what the Diana 34 does with these same pellets.
B.B.
B.B.,
You know better than I but I would be surprised if more than half the people who frequent this blog do not have a PCP. I didn’t mean to offend you or anyone else. I thought it was a very harmless, and accurate, statement. No need to start shooting at me, my tower’s not ivory either.
For group shooting I use the Gamo targets with one bullseye per target (the ones that are very thick and come 100 ea. per box.) I get very round, clean holes regardless of the pellet type. Well, I’ve never tried hollow points.
G&G
G&G,
You are reading something into my comment that isn’t there. I was not chastising you for your question. I was just explaining the rationale behind my decisions.
B.B.
B.B.
Sorry I overreacted to your comment. I thought you were making reference to the fact that I do own several of the top notch PCP’s which many reader’s apparently can’t afford. I know to ask what someone means when they say something instead of making assumptions. My bad. It won’t happen again.
G&G
BB,
I’m surprised at how poorly the Gamo Silent pellets did in your R8; my Bronco shoots them fairly well.
Gamo’s marketing is a bit strange here but my guess is that they are “silent” compared to the Raptors in that they do not go supersonic in high powered airguns. As far as I can tell they are a plated version of the TS-10 and TS-22 pellets. The plating is very clean and slick – they almost feel like they are waxed.
Paul in Liberty County
Paul,
I will try the Silent Cats in the Diana 34, as well, so we may see a difference there.
B.B.
I’m curious. Much has been said about the makers sorting their pellets. Just how is that done? It seems pretty obvious that they aren’t putting the millions of pellets they produce each year ( or possibly month) on a table in front of a myriad of people with calipers and scales,,, so,, how is it done? Getting pellet to pellet consistency in a mass production atmosphere would seem to me a daunting task.
Or is it simply better (newer) molds? There are a few here with much experience in metal working. Perhaps they might help me understand how this can be done on such a large scale.
Ed
Ed,
As far as I know, it isn’t makers, plural. It’s maker — as in JSB. And they only hand-sort a couple of their top lines of pellets.
Years ago there was a hand-sorted Chinese target pellets that I competed with in regional matches. They out-shot all other brands in my target pistol.
So it isn’t millions of pellets. It’s hundreds of thousands. How do they do it? One way would be with a scale. Another would be a ramp with graduated holes to accept/reject pellets of differing sizes. Visual inspections are also possible, but not very cost-effective.
B.B.
BB,I was thinking that the first thing they would have to do for quality is to make sure the lead was right.If they use an alloy,it must be just right to have the right density.Otherwise they would have to put too much lead in,or leave lead out,to achieve the needed pellet weight.You can’t just add or leave out lead unless you change the inside of the hollow pellet.The outside has to stay the same.But that would change the front to back balance or the skirt thickness to too thick or too thin.
Differences in alloy could mean harder or softer material for machines to form,making consistency a real challenge.
These are my thoughts.Do you think the lead makeup could have that much affect on the finished product?-Tin Can Man
TCM,
Of course the lead alloy has a huge impact on pellet quality! It controls the weight of each pellet, plus it controls the shape of the pellets. Because they are swaged, the softness of the alloy pays a big part in determining how the lead flows when it is formed under pressure.
Good call.
B.B.
Many of our customers use what is called a shaker to sort and filter polymer pellets. The pellets drop onto a screen that is shaking back and forth. The smaller pellets fall through to a finer screen and the larger ones exit through a hole in the side. The shaker can be set up with multiple levels, depending on what levels of sorting are desired. The screens can be purchased with whatever size holes are desired. I would not be surprised if JSB used the exact same machine.
I’ve been occasionally pleasantly surprised by “economy” pellets, though agree with Gunfun1 that good manufacturing consistency is an absolute prerequisite for good accuracy–the laws of physics and probability demand it. I’ve also been pretty surprised at how much a particular gun may like one particular pellet but not the next.
Are those Gamo hollow point pointeds a Tomahawk by another name? The tin sure looks similar.
I saw some video tests on YouTube suggesting that the Destroyer EX is slightly softer and mushrooms better than the Destroyer. With my limited testing the EX has grouped a little smaller than the standard Destroyer.
As a tin can shooter Crosman Ultra Magnum 10.5 Gr. sort of make a 177 gun hit tin cans like a 22 gun. You can see and hear it.
B.B.
I know I’m off topic, but are older models diana 48/52 more powerful than newer (t06) ones?
I know when you tested it you got 20fpe + results but lots of web sites and YouTube reviews post sub 20fpe figures. I don’t own a chronograph so i can’t measure my t06 mod. 52. Not that I’m obsessed with more power, but i just like to know what sort of impact I’m making down range which is imperative for hunting at longer distances.
George,
Welcome to the blog.
As far as I know, there is no difference in power between today’s 48/52 and those with the T05 trigger. There is no reason for there to be any difference, and I haven’t heard anything about one.
I don’t know what you have seen online, but I find that often the online reviewers are not fully aware of the dynamics of the airguns they are reviewing. For example, with a spring-piston powerplant like a 48, you will get 3-4 more foot-pounds of energy when a lighter pellet is used, as opposed to a heavier one. But the heavier ones may be more accurate. So the reviewer may show the most accurate pellet and then give its energy, without mentioning to this fact — leading someone to believe the gun only develops that much power. This is the reason I always test an airgun with pellets of different weights.
Sadly, this brings us to an unhappy place where people who are not fully informed will quote the energy of the pellet that produces the most energy in a certain airgun and then show the accuracy of another pellet that shoots the best — giving the reader/viewer the impression that the airgun delivers both things simultaneously.
B.B.
And to add fuel to the fire… Results from a T01 m54 (which, I seem to recall, is the same basic power plant just stuffed onto the sliding sled action).
NOTE: On the day I did these, I only risked one shot per pellet as I was sitting in my apartment doorway with a bullet trap in front of the hallway closet — about 15 feet. And was concerned one of the neighbors might call the police at any time…
The columns are:
maker/pellet model/nominal weight/chrono velocity/computed ft-lbs
RWS Diana M54 .22 (single shot each)
RWS Meisterkugeln 14.0 810.8 20.43
RWS SuperPoint Extra 14.5 778.7 19.52
RWS Super-H-Point 14.5 787.9 19.99
Beeman Silver Sting 15.8 751.1 19.79
Predator Poly-Tip 17.2 725.8 20.12
Beeman Silver Arrow 17.6 704.3 19.38
AirArms Field Plus 18.2 688.1 19.13
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.2 701.7 19.90
H&N Crow Magnum 18.2 669.9 18.13
H&N Baracuda Match 21.1 618.7 17.93
Gamo TS-22 22.0 561.1 15.38
Eun Jin Round Nose 28.5 465.9 13.74
I rate the m54 as a 19ft-lb gun with pellets from 14-18gr, with a rapid fall-off once one reaches the 20+gr range.
The pattern also holds with my Gamo NRA 1000 Special in .177; 13ft-lb from 7-8.5gr, dropping rapidly with 9+gr pellets.
Baron W,
Thank you for that data. I don’t currently own a Diana sidelever, but you just illustrated the point quite well.
B.B.
I just pray that some summer I’ll be able to fill it in better… At least 5 pellets of each, preferably 10, so I can get a mean & std. dev.
Baron Wulfraed,
Assume you’re talking about an older Diana Model 54 Airking?
If so, I noticed that you didn’t test Crosman premiers 14.3gr or the JSB 14.3 gr.
What is the best 50 yard pellet in your model 54? What size are your 10 shot groups, with your guns best pellet, at 50 yards?
Thanks.
kevin
Speak not of groups… I’ve only once had them to a range* — to sight in new scopes — and between the .44mag on one side and the 1911s on the other, and mountain cross winds, getting meaningful sight-in was a pain — even at 25 yards.
The cited data collection was done more to test out the chronograph.
* at that day’s session I had along the m54, Gamo NRA 1000, Marauder, and Condor… Along with my first (and to date only) session with a Browning A-Bolt II Varmint and a Ruger 77/17.
Of the 6, the only one I could claim usable for squirrels at 50 yards was the .308Win (firing 7.62ball)… Two magazines full once I got on paper made a squirrel sized hole.
Baron Wulfraed,
Agree with you. Wind is a formidable foe for small caliber airgun accuracy.
Once upon a time I owned a Diana 54 in .22 caliber. Spent lots of time shooting that gun at 100 yards.
Almost without exception the crosman premiers in the cardboard box and 14.3 gr JSB’s are the most accurate pellets in .22 caliber Diana 54’s.
If you will email me your address I’ll send you some of these pellets to test in your M54. My email address is klentz4 AT comcast.net.
kevin
Thanks, but I may have some… Need to pull the clutter away from the gun locker to check… I know I have a box of something, just not sure if .22 or .177 (I also need to find the RWS silicone chamber oil as I need to seep some into a dismantled fountain pen — the piston sticks so badly the threads were stripping on the shaft when trying to prep it for ink)
Hi, the T01 action has a 4mm longer stroke and could potentially make a little more energy, the stroke on the T05 and T06 are the same….so should be identical
Yeah maybe that’s the reason.
B.B.
I maybe new to airguns, but after reading so many of your reviews and tests, i know a whole lot about the subject, enough to know about pellet weight and velocity and how it effects energy.
Thanks about that BB.
keeping this whole energy subject apart, I’m very happy with my gun, all the negative feedback i read on the internet i rarely notice ( recoil, weight, awkward cocking etc..) maybe the noise could be a bit less lol.
One thing is bugging me though, the slight vibration i get at the end of the shot, its not a very pronounced or disturbing one but a deep oscillating feeling like a bunch of bees trapped inside the stock. Can i do something about it or does it need a professional tuning job? And if done, will it alter the power output?
Hi George, the 52 is fairly smooth shooting once a few thousand pellets are through it anyway, however you can tune it, it’s fairly straightforwards to strip down and there are plenty of guides online on how to do it.
If you are in the US then Vortek make a nice kit for the 52 which should make it a bit smoother and possibly a touch more powerful, though that shouldn’t be the focus
I’m not in the U.S. but can order one online.
I’m just afraid i would mess the rifle up. never took one apart before.
Where are you?maybe I can reccomend someone
Kinda know the answer in advance but here you go, I’m from Lebanon, it’s in the middle east.
Funny, I used to chat with a guy from Lebanon a few years ago on a UK site who was looking to find a Diana.
No, you’re probably right about finding an established airgun tuner out there, however most light machine shops could help, the Diana 52 strips down without any special tools and kits from Maccari or Vortek come with instructions, being outside the US, you could even order in a kit from TW Chambers or Welsh Willy here in the UK
George,
Welcome to the blog.
If your gun buzzes, it does need something. There could be a bent mainspring or just too much tolerance inside the powerplant.
What model is it?
B.B.
Its a Diana mod 52 T06 superior, it’s in .22 cal. Its anew in stock condicondition, if there’s too much tolerance than it came that way from the factory! I mean after 20 years of making the same model you’d expect these kind of things sorted out.
George,
Oh, you would be surprised at howe much airguns are not changed over the year. I talked to Diana’s VP of sales about their barrel droop issues and was told that no one else was complaining, because the sights are both on the barrel. Of course she hand’t a clue! But I did notice that after Leapers came out with a scope base to fix the problem, Diana quickly redesigned their guns — not to correct the barrel droop, but to make the Leapers UTG bases incompatible!
The arrogance of some companies!
B.B.
Business as usual eh!
So if there’s too much tolerance, can this be repaired by a tuning kit? Or do i need to address the issue in a different way.
Sorry for being such a pain, but i have no one else but you and the guys here for info.
George,
The trick is to remove the extra space in the powerplant, and to lubricate the mechanism with the right greases at the same time.
I will soon be testing and then tuning a Diana 45. The rifle is an older model 45, before Diana slapped the 45 number on the 36 powerplant in the 1990s.
That series with show you what to do and most of how to do it — except for the sidelever.
B.B.
BB,
A couple of things about your R8.
ThatthingisdropdeadgorgeousIgottahavitgivemegivemedrooldrooldrool!!!
What Weihrauch did they use to make the R8?
RR,
The R8 was also sold as the OLD HW50 (Hans Weihrauch’s favorite airgun).
Weihrauch is currently producing a gun that is also called a HW50 but this NEW model HW50 is the same powerplant as the R6 (which was formerly called the HW99).
The differences between the old HW50 (R8) and the new HW50 (R6) are:
Old one: threaded end plug like on the R1
New one: press in end plug like on the R9
The piston and chamber are different diameters, The old 50S used the same 25mm piston and seal that the R-8 did. The newer HW50 (aka HW-99 until recently) uses a 26mm piston diameter and seal. The tube sizes are identical in these two guns it’s the id that differs. The newer HW50 tube is thinner. The new HW50 also has much shorter transfer port.
kevin
That is what I was thinking. I know there are usually little engineering changes over the years. Sometimes they even improve the product.
RR,
Not this time. The new HW50 is not an improvement over the old HW50/55 IMHO.
kevin
Kevin
The information you supplied about the new, and older HW50’s explain a lot to me. Last weekend I was working on my HW50 that I purchased new about 3 years ago. When I decided to replace the piston seal, I found the three I had in my parts selection were too big. I could get the things in with a hammer, but I would think my velocity would drop considerably. Not to mention the increase in cocking effort. I guess mine has the 25mm piston, and the seals I purchased were the newer 26mm. My old seal is still in relatively good condition so I simply put it back in. Your information should help me in purchasing the correct seals in my next order.
Would you happen to know when Weihrauch made this change? I’m not worried just curious. It could be my HW50 is an older stock model too. Currently, the gun shoots nice tight groups, with a light, smooth cocking effort. I keep it mainly for my daughter to shoot whenever she comes home for a visit.
Ciao
Titus
Titus,
You’ve opened the proverbial can ‘o worms by asking “Would you happen to know when Weihrauch made this change?”
Mike Driskill and Frakor are the Weihrauch experts. Mike has even created a library of Weihrauch serial numbers with date ranges. I’m not the expert but I’ll share what I know.
Seems it was around 1995 that the original (OLD) HW50 stopped production. The beeman R8 (same action as the original HW50 but different stock style) ceased production around 1997. The R6 (same action as the NEW HW50) began production in 1995 (coincidence?) and ceased production around 2001.
It was around 2001-2002 that the NEW HW50 (same action as the R6 and HW99) began to appear on the scene.
What was confusing is that some airgun dealers were still selling the OLD HW50 as NOS (New Old Stock) long after it ceased production. Pyramyd AIR, among others back then, sold these OLD HW50’s brand new in the box when they started in business.
The OLD HW50 only came in .177 caliber. The NEW HW50 is offered in .177 and .22. A late model OLD HW50 with a good tube and synthetic piston seal, can push a lightweight pellet around 720fps. The early model OLD HW50’s had leather piston seals. At one time I owned over 20 of these early HW50/55 models with leather piston seals and a healthy one would shoot a light weight pellet around 650fps. The NEW HW50, in .177, can shoot light weight pellets around 820fps.
IMHO, the NEW HW50 has an unacceptable cocking effort vs. velocity ratio and has a snappy firing cycle. If you need to push a pellet 800+ fps a detuned HW95/R9 or a FWB 124 is the ideal.
VERY likely that your HW50 is a new model but maybe these additional “clues” will help you to know for sure.
kevin
Kevin
You may not refer to yourself as being expert, however your knowledge on these matters is still quite extensive. I suppose I should invest in callipers so I will be able to measure these differences myself. When I put the two seals together, my failing eyesight could detect no difference in size. One mm is an extremely small measurement after all.
Oh, by the way, my HW50 is in .177cal. The stock has no checkering at all, unlike the new 50’s I have observed. The only way I will know the age of my gun for sure will be check the serial no’s.
Thanks again for shedding some light on the subject of the HW50.
Ciao
Titus
RR,
And now you know the real reason I chose it for this test! It shoots exactly like it looks!
If there was still a Roanoke airgun show, I would bring it with me, jsy so you could see it and perhaps try it out. The Ohio show does not support testing airguns, so that’s out.
B.B.
Maybe they will have another Hickory, NC show next year and we can catch up there.
The bad thing is if you ever put that in my hands, you will have a real hard time prying it out.
Gee, so like maybe I should return my new HW50S when it arrives Wednesday. You make it sound so not worthy. Maybe I’ll shoot it on cloudy days when no one is arround. Now I’m going to go to my room and have a good cry into my root beer!
David
David
If its anything like my .177 cal. HW50s I got a while back I think you will be more than happy with it.
I’m willing to bet you just might want to show it off.
🙂
Gunfun
Yeah, I just might want to show it off and if RidgeRunner should be one of those people I show it to I don’t have to worry about getting it back.
LOL
David
David
Well I want to know what you think of it.
And it wouldn’t hurt my feelings to have another one if you don’t like it.
😉
Nice try but that ain’t gonna happen. LOL
David
David
They are nice shooting guns. And they managed to keep the weight down.
The HW50s is a nice little package. I have been using the heavier JSB exact 10.34 grn in mine and with good luck. I think the shot cycle is smoother with the heavier pellet.
To meet there is a cushion of air in front of the piston before the pellet moves. And the report is quiet.
Should say to me there is a cushion of air.
Gunfun,
Those JSB Diabolo Exact Heavy 10.34gr pellets are sweet shooters in my 460 Magnum so they will get a try in the new gun along with the 10.34 Air Arms Field Heavy pellets which the 460 ain’t happy with. Like I told Kevin looking Mac’s test lead me to believe lighter pellets were the way to go with the HW50S. We will see come Wednesday got a whole bag of .177 pellets to try.
David
David
My HW50s didn’t break in as quick as the LGU. It took close to 1000 pellets through it before it started settling in. If yours acts like mine did don’t base your pellet choice off of a non broke in gun as I’m sure you know.
And make sure you check the stock screws I had to tighten them twice in the first 300 shots then they stayed. Also had to tighten the hinge point at about that same 300 shots. It started swinging freely. After that its held nice.
I like to know if your gun acts the same.
I was really disappointed in my HW50s .177 (new style) when it first arrived. I bought it as I loved my HW30s .177 right out of the box. I put a peep sight on the 30s and wanted a bit more power on a scoped version so the 50s made sense. The 50s shot cycle was lousy, worse than the typical chinese gamo clone action. The threads on the forums at the time all seemed to suggest a detune to 12ftlbs made it more tractable. Following the advice I ordered the Vortek lower power kit (came with the 25mm seal though). Sure enough its a marvelous 12ftlb gun and the shot cycle is a treat.
The other issue is drag on the compression tube, the geometry is off and it grinds a trench into the tube. After reading a bit more advice I just kept a touch of molly on the area and let it bed in. Some have jammed plastic shims in but if they don’t stay put they become an issue themselves in the field.
It’s a bit tough to cock with the short barrel length still, even at 12ftlbs but no more than a typical 1000fps (advertised) springer. To me its like a Pony car, its short & handles great and has the trigger & barrel that makes you a better shot.
Don’t give up if its twangy and torquey and grinding on cocking, there is a fantastic rifle underneath. Not sure why Weihrauch didn’t quite finish this model but I can’t think of anything else with this combination when you get it working right.
The Crosman Premier HP’s shoot very well in my Diana 52. I’ll be also trying RWS Superdomes, H & N Field Target Trophys,and some JB’s.Jumbos. That will be this summer. It’s way to cold here in Northern Michigan right now!
Mike
A funny thing happened this morning as I was reading the “Archives” section……I realized that I had just “nuked” my first cup of coffee for the third time. It was then that I pondered if I perhaps I was developing yet another “vice”. 🙂 After all, it’s not only been the coffee…..beers have gotten warm,… entire smokes burned up in the ashtray, after only the first puff,…chores put off,… and meals delayed. But that has happened to everyone,…….right? Right???.. 🙁 … In the meantime, I shall proceed with caution as I glean the archives for little nuggets of info,.. not only from the articles, but also from the great comments.
Humor aside, does anyone have data,(chrono or otherwise), with regards to 12gr. Co2 pressure variations or decreases during rapid / continuous shooting? I’ve read that as ambient temperature decreases, so does the Co2 cartridge pressure. I would guess also that the cylinder cools as well during rapid shooting. I tried it once, (4 shots, rest 5 min., 4 shots), with a Beretta 92FS with the 8 round magazine and shot my best group ever at 20mm. @ 24′. I do not really count it as it was with randomly selected Benjamin pellets, so any control data is out the window, but it did happen.
Chris, USA,
I had to alter your comment by removing all the dots. Just hit the return key a couple times if you want to create a paragraph. By making one continuous line so long, it messes with the layout of the blog.
Thanks,
Edith
Thank you ever so much !
I can actually write quite well, but on a computer is another story. There was all kind of weird stuff happening as I was trying to indent, space lines, etc.. Imagine my surprise to see my smiles and frowns show up in color. Nice feature!
I think I got the whole “starting a new paragraph” thing down. 🙂 Thanks to your help.
Chris, you really need to be careful, those vices are all expensive and should not be wasted! Sadly, you are correct, I have lost many hours on this blog and going through the articles, reading about airguns and the things you can do with them!
For extra fun on the CO2 end of things, read about the people using electric thermal socks to keep their tank warm. 😉
Ok Mark here is my new reply.
And now we can continue to talk and have room to reply.
OK, that helps. I’ll let you know if those targets become available. I expect to retire in 6 years and that kind of stuff will help me keep busy.
Another question for you. Last night I wrote that long post with a link to the video. It did not show up and after an hour I tried another shorter post with the link and it did not seem to post either. Then this morning I saw your response and my first post, it had finally shown up. Interestingly, my second post did not ever show up. Do the posts with links elsewhere take longer to be displayed, maybe someone checks them out? And my second post which was somewhat of a short duplicate of my first post never showed up. Someone or something canceled that one. I’ve seen times Edith helps some of us less electronically talented folks.
Mark T.,
Your first post went into the spam folder because it contained a You Tube link after a very long text. That is exactly what spams look like. The second post was eliminated without even reaching the folder, but I wouldn’t have posted it anyway, since it was a repeat of the first.
Edith and I clean out the spam filter about 10-15 times each day. We have to sort through hundreds of spams to find posts like yours.
B.B.
BB,
10-15 times a day! you and Edith sure put a lot of effort into this blog, that is what makes it great. Thank you, I really appreciate it.
When I want to post links to you tube in the future should i keep the associated messages short in order to keep the spam filter from removing it?
Mark
Mark,
I can’t guarantee that it will, but yes, it usually does. The longer messages prime the spam filter to look for embedded links, and they usually don’t make it through.
Also, remember to put spaces between your text and the link. Some posters run the links together with the text, and that almost always gets trapped.
B.B.
Mark
I was just going to say that Edith or BB would be able to answer that best.
Mark
Oh and maybe you can have somebody make them and you just collect the money.
🙂
Now that is an interesting option. I’ll keep that in mind.
Mark
I think that’s a good idea you got.
Its always nice to have more reactive targets on the market.
I don’t hunt but I do pest control if the opportunity arises. And I do shoot at paper targets. I have a few steel resetable spinner targets that have the disc on top that you hit to reset the 4 bottom spinners.
I’m always trying to come up with some type of target to plink and mini snipe with. So its nice to hear of another target.
I hope you do something with your idea.
GF1, post below!
Mark,
If you have no plans to produce your target for profit maybe you could post the plans some where. Or even better do a guest blog on the construction here.
David
Pa, Yea, that is something to think about. The plans are in my head but a few sketches and the basics will be obvious. The guest blog sounds fun. We will see what the future holds. Thanks for the suggestion.
Mark
Just saw the video and I just have to say that is a fun target you have made!
Thanks Siraniko. It was fun to make, and is enjoyable to shoot.
GunFun1,
I thought you might like to know that I just came in from a little shooting session with a FWB300S. Shooting Air Arms Falcon 7.3gr pellets at 25 yards, 10 shots produced a group that a dime will literally cover, and that is even after I pulled one. It measured about 1/2″ outside to outside.
Interested?
RR
Well it sounds like you got that 300 shooting good. 25 yards even.
What kind of sights on it? And its got dove tail grooves for scope rings doesn’t it. Is for right hand shooting.
I’m interested and maybe we can do some wheel’n and deal’n. How can I get a hold of you.
I actually had some wheelin’ and dealin’ in mind.
I was using a 3×9 Bug Buster on it today, which by the way is a decent little scope. I do not have rear sights for it, but I have refinished the front sights and will be installing them this week.
What you really need to keep in mind about this thing is that it is a shooter, not a safe queen. It is not pretty. I have removed the rust, but all of the outer metal is speckled. All of the internal metal is almost new in finish.
The stock is walnut and in bad need of refinishing, however it is not badly dinged or cracked. I had been thinking of refinishing it myself, but I am afraid that if I did, it may not be going anywhere.
It has brand new seals and is lubricated internally, but I did not try to “tune” it. The trigger on this thing is AWESOME!
Before any deals are finalized, I will send you some pictures. You can contact me at burke93attdsdotnet so I can get your email address, etc. and see what we can work out on it. When you contact me, tell me what you had in mind.
It was my intention from day one to roll these over, but after shooting at 25 yards today, it is real tempting to hang on to one of them.
RR
I will email you in a minute.
RR
Did you get the email?
What we have learnt thus far, is that the best of the budget pellets are around 20% less accurate than the premium pellet, a fair trade off if the pellets are half the price and you aren’t target shooting or hunting.
However, one issue that isn’t addressed is QC and batch consistency, if I finish a tin of JSB Exacts, I can open another and be pretty certain that the results are replicable, this is simply not the case with Chinese pellets, tin to tin they can vary enormously, in colour, finish, damage and weight…..so it’s a variable that needs to be understood.
The one thing I have taken from this is that the “gimmick” pellets aren’t doing too badly, I normally disregard hollow points and pointy pellets as being ballistically compromised, especially at range.
I’d still love to know what their respective energies are at both the muzzle and at 25 yards….often very telling and plausibly a decision maker for those that hunt.
Can anyone assist me, I’m stripping a Remington Express down, and for the first time in my life, I’m foxed
I can’t withdraw the crosspin safety from the rear of the action, it will only come out one side, the grub screw/spring are removed as is the reset lever etc
But, the upper part of the auto safety sear won’t let it come out, and I can’t remove this part without the trigger unit coming out first…so I’m in a recirculating puzzle
As this thing is nominally American (via Shanghai) hope someone else has stripped one
The gun on the Falcon Tin is, rather predictably, a Falcon FN19, when NP Holdings bought Sussex Armoury and changed the brand to Air Arms, it also bought Falcon and moved to it’s premises it continued selling the Falcon PCP’s until last year and has now put them on a temporary hiatus., think Rolls Royce and Bentley (though with less cross over components)
The pellets aren’t Air Arms Falcons, as Air Arms don’t make pellets, but are in actual fact JSB’s made on a slightly modified “Exact” die, as are Air Arms Field…..and is quite possibly the same pellet
Ditto Daystate Harriers…..JSB Exact, though in “heavy” format as I recall
JSB design with choked Lothar Walther barrels very much in mind
Have you ever had a bad tin of pellets? After working all of the bugs out of my Crosman Genesis, it has shot ten shot plus groups under a half inch at ten yards. I have been using the Crosman premier hollow points in a tin with good results until now. When my tight shot groups jumped from under a half inch, to as much as five inches I could not figure out what was wrong. All the screws were tight and the scope worked fine on my other air gun . Then I opened a new tin of Crosman premier hollow points and its now back to tight groups again. The tin in question came from a local retail store, the others from Pyramid Air. Is there that much quality difference between retail stores and Pyramid Air’s stock?
Thanks,
Dan
Dan,
It has nothing to do with Pyramyd AIR. It has to do with the difference between premium pellets and bargain pellets. Premier Hollow Points are a bargain pellet that does not maintain the same manufacturing tolerances of the more expensive pellets.
B.B.
Yes, the new tin of Crosman pellets started slipping as I got deeper into it. Just ordered two tins of JSB jumbo heavy pellets. They seem to be more consistent. It must have been luck getting several tins
of Crosman pellets that were accurate.
Thanks,
Dan