by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Today’s report is the first part of a guest blog from 4 authors: Ray Apelles, Hector Medina, Paul Plauche and Greg Sauve. They are all members of Field Target Team USA.
If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me.
Over to you, gentlemen.
This report covers:
- Physical Tests
- Ballistic tests
When JSB introduced their Exact Premium pellets at the 2015 SHOT Show, Field Target Team USA, through Hector’s connections, immediately agreed to conduct a test. It would be valuable to the team and to the airgunning community to have a solid body of results conducted by serious sportsmen. And, in essence, it’s a way for Team USA to give a little back to the community that so generously supports them. The test, therefore, had to be comprised of both PCP and spring-piston shooters. What better shooters than to use the four best-placed shooters in the World’s roster (a ranking of field target shooters).
Hector weighed 100 pellets from a randomized lot using an accurate, affordable digital scale with the distribution of weights shown below. It was interesting to see that the extreme spread of the pellet weights was within 0.1 grains.
The JSB Premium pellets were consistent.
Even more interesting is that 68 percent of the pellets fall between 8.42 and 8.44 grains, which is an extremely tight bracket. A full 90 percent of the pellets fell in the 8.40 to 8.44 grains bracket. Your rifle will tell you if it likes these weights; and if it does, you can omit weighing.
Some benchrest shooters use an air gauge to measure head size. Here, we need to express our thanks to Stephen Grayner and Dan Brown for their invaluable help in these tests. Both are seasoned airgunners. Without their help, the results would have been less enlightening.
Let’s start by describing what this particular air gauge does. It takes a controlled air flow and conducts it into a cavity formed by a caliber-specific sub-die that’s closed by the insertion of a pellet’s head into the cavity. The sub-die is caliber-specific, and the air gauge measures the pressure that remains in the cavity. If the pellet’s head is small, then the doughnut-shaped bleed port (the space between the pellet’s head and the sub-die cross section) is large. If the doughnut-shaped hole is small, then the pellet head approaches the sub-die dimension.
Air-gauging is an ideal tool for comparing things. It’s not so easy to use air-gauging as an absolute measuring tool. The flow of air depends not only on the differences of areas but also on the shape of the head inserted into the sub-die. So, we want to be up front and tell you that in no way were we expecting to measure the head size absolutely. Instead, we’re comparing how uniform the head sizes were within a box of pellets. After passing a randomly selected lot of 50 pellets through the head air gauge, we got these results:
Fifty JSB Exact Premium pellets sorted by relative head size.
Exactly what are we looking at? Well, the small numbers on the left are pressure readings, and the arrangement of pellets is self-explanatory. For a given head shape, a 4.51mm pellet head might read 9 PSI, and a 4.50mm pellet head might read 5 PSI. If we change the head shape, those numbers will change. A big challenge with using air gauges is to get a master that very closely resembles the pellet your rifle likes to use. The difference between a Premier type of head and Baracuda type of head can rather dramatically move the scale. It’s important to note that a difference of 0.01mm (almost four ten-thousandths of an inch) reads between 5 and 9 PSI.
The differences seen in the above picture are not linear. But still, 92 percent of the pellets are in the 4 to 6 PSI region, which is half the variance between 4.50mm and 4.51mm. So, they are closely matched.
This particular air gauge works by measuring cross sections. Picture this in your mind — a pellet with some indentation or slightly out of round may still have the same area as a pellet with a smaller head.
Air-gauging, by itself, will not give you the whole picture. You need to apply other forms of sorting such as rolling, weighing and visual inspections — if you want to be TRULY competitive in benchrest.
This experience also showed us where future work might lead, as the old way of making pellets with two die halves coming together to swage a lead blank has probably reached its end. Future work will need to explore other methods of manufacturing if we’re to take the next quantum leap. But more on that and on the economics, as well as the consequences for JSB of starting this improvement process later.
Up to this point, we know these pellets are very well packed, very well controlled and very uniform. But how do they behave in the wind?
Not all of the shooters conducted ballistic tests, but we do have a few results that make the whole discussion very interesting. See the chart below.
AZ LG100 = Steyr LG 100 tuned by Alan Zasadny
EV2 = Air Arms EV2 with a custom 2-land barrel
CCA WFTF D54 = Connecticut Custom Airguns custom gun made for World Field Target Federation rules (12 foot-pounds)
As you can see, it’s more important which gun shot the pellets than which model/die made them.
Part of any serious ballistic test should include recovered pellets to see how they compare to unfired projectiles. In this case, the recovered pellets showed a smaller waist expansion than the traditional counterparts.
We’ll stop here, as the rest of the report is about accuracy. That should all be presented together, so watch for it in Part 2.
[Editor’s note: The reader should understand that the term “ballistic coefficient” is not a static value. It’s a statement of the efficiency of a given projectile when it moves within a range of velocities. Ballistic coefficients do not apply to guns — they apply to projectiles and change as the speed of the projectile changes.]
143 thoughts on “Field Target Team USA’s test of the JSB FT Premium pellets: Part 1”
Wow that looks like a lot of work guys!
The lazy half of me is glad I’ve been training to get my offhand shot back. Thanks for sharing!
First,..Thank you for this and upcoming testing. I must admit though that the report was a bit confusing.
From what I have seen, most affordable scales measure to .X, yet the results were presented in .XX.
The air-gaging test was interesting. I did not know that it existed. What I took from it was that it showed (uniformity) of head’s within a tin or batch. While not a measurement of head size or head shape, it’s rather a indication of both size and shape,..without actually measuring either. Maybe a short video would have been nice.
The B.C. test was nice. I am new, but I would imagine the 2 chrony’s were used, set at a fixed distance apart. Perhaps a brief explanation of that procdure ?
And last, I was not aware that the waist expanded after a shot was fired. Cool to know that it happens. What does that mean though? How were they “caught” / recovered ?
I appreciate the insight into advanced pellet testing. I am new and look forward to other’s comments. It should be learning filled weekend blog.
I believe we see results from:
Dan Brown aiir flow gage
I know that the benchrest shooters are solid on the idea of pellet head diameter being critical, and some use this method with claimed success.
There are other ways to measure 😉
I had a hard time getting a mental image of the measuring device mentioned in today’s blog. The video made it clearer. Thanks for posting the link. After everything was connected in the video, it sort of looks like a Rube Goldberg design.
Just checking in on the new system to start the clock ticking. I watched this same video a few weeks ago and thought the same thing that you did, quite a complex device and noisy.
It appears that the new registration and log in system has achieved its intended purpose as I have not seen any spam since it went on line! Yay! I normally read the comments section from oldest to newest, that way I catch ones that had been posted on older blogs which don’t show up on the current one.
It is now 10:20 EST, lets see how long this takes to post.
Your comment posted right away without any issues. In my area, the blog was down for about 25 minutes. Don’t know if it affected anyone else or if it was just another Twilight Zone moment.
Awesome is all I got to say ! Thank you for that fine link. You WILL NOT find me doing this, but it is nice to know how it is done. A fine add on to the article !
And,…a little self promo there,….? I love it ! 😉 Best of luck with your product,…with BB and reader’s comments,….I may get one yet.
Current affordable scales, made for gem, medicine, gold dust, and other things that weigh to the 2 second decimal places in grains are relatively common now. You can get one for between $15 and $50, it all depends how many bells and whistles you want, AND, probably more important, how traceable to an ultimate standard the measurement of the scale is.
For airgunner’s purposes, grouping pellets in the 8.44 group separate from the 8.42 group is relatively important. It all depends on your gun. Some barrels and guns are more finicky than others.
Look for “Precision Digital Scales” in any of the websites that sell everything and you will see quite a large selection.
Air gauging has existed for quite some time. If you have ever purchased Match barrels from Douglas or Shilen, some of them come stamped as “Air gauged” the idea to apply it to pellets, arose with the airgunners getting into the Benchrest game.
There are two ways to measure the BC: one is using two chronos as you suggest, the other is by using the trajectory of the pellet and an app, such as PP-Calc to obtain a weighted average BC. As the editor notes, the BC changes with speed and therefore over the flight of the pellet to the target.
Pellets were soft-caught using a 4″ PVC pipe loosely filled with Dacron pillow fiber. Simple and effective.
Some pellets get their BC’s for table from studies made in wind tunnels. The REALITY is that the FINAL SHAPE OF THE PELLET IS DEFINED BY THE BARREL IT IS SHOT FROM.
Therefore the REAL BC of a pellet from YOUR gun MAY not be what the manufacturers obtained in THEIR testing, and may vary quite substantially. While it is true that the BC belongs to the projectile it is also true that it is defined by the gun that fired it.
Thanks for reading!
Thank you,…..all very facinating. Please keep in mind the type of questions you are getting and try to anticipate the same in future reports. (with perhaps a little more detail).
It is an honor to have person’s of your shooting caliber giving the reader’s here your advice and input.
Thanks for your kind words, Chris!
We will take your advice to heart and pay more attention in the future, I do ask for advanced apologies because the second part was already written and electronically logged before we started this.
If we get enough interest from the public in FT Team USA’s activities, we may even set up something special.
Compares the uniformity of airflow around the head of the pellet as well as volumetric difference.
Hope you don’t mind the touch up Chris, your statement sounded so right but felt like something was missing.
Cool process! I’ve got a way to quieten that compressor in the means of a 2stage with 30gallon tank, if anyone’s interested.
Volumetric differences of what?
I know your trying to go somewhere with this. But I don’t see the picture.
Maybe just me but sorry. Tell me what you mean.
I don’t mind at all. That initial post took a while to write. Being a bit confused, very early in the am and realizing who I was responding to,……I tried my best to keep it short, concise and to the point.
I do not ever see myself doing the airflow gauge bit. A Pelletgage, yes. Very cool that they go to these extremes over pellets. And,..cool too that they all go about their sorting in different ways using a variety of methods.
That would be an interesting report all by itself,…..the different methods,…however simple or bizzare.
Golly Gee Whiz, I hope none of my air rifles like this pellet. I do not think my wallet could stand it. Yeah, I know, this is for the competition shooters, but I take my plinking seriously. I use RWS R10 Match in my Izzy.
In the end, FT is nothing BUT glorified plinking! LOL! We DO take our plinking seriously just like you.
The Izzy’s are wonderful guns, whether the pistol or the rifles, but when you start plinking seriously at Alka-Seltzer sized targets at 55 yards, you need more than the R-10’s.
Great report on a great product (so far). While expensive, these are well worth it in terms of avoided “cost” from the time and effort of sorting – I actually think they are a bargain for what we get!. I would hope my rifles do like them, so that they are an option over my hand sorted pellets.
I would love it if JSB offered these in their .22 caliber 18.1 grain pellet and the .25 caliber King for the benchrest shooters among us. If they shoot well. I know I would be buying many boxes every year to go along with the standard ones I buy for general shooting.
JSB has always been very responsive of the shooter’s needs. SO, it is just a question of time.
I would be interested to see how results from an air gauge compares to a Pelletgauge.
Different technologies and different foci, David.
You can go throuh a tin of pellets with Jerry’s Pelletgauge in about an hour. BUT, the Pelletgauge will not detect if you are putting the pellet slightly skewed into the gauge or not. The air gauge WILL detect this.
Of course it takes a lot longer (I would say about 3 hours for a tin) and it is a substantially higher investment.
Air gauging is not for everyone, that’s for sure.
JC’s Pelletgauge is a more “friendlier” approach.
We EACH have to decide what WE want to do in OUR shooting.
We air gauge our parts where I work so it’s near to read of it being applied to pellet sorting. But I’m surprised to not read that the pellet gauge that BB’s been writing about hadn’t been employed.
It could be that today’s guest bloggers had already started their testing before Jerry made the Pelletgage publicly available.
Good point. Thanks Edith.
TCups, the brother of JerryC who posted above with a link to his pelletgage product, has posted multiple times at Benchrest.com, in the “Airgun Benchrest” forum, showing pictures and his procedure for measuring, only to receive a lot of push back.
Sometimes, it’s hard for people to change a process they’ve embraced and invested in.
I just read some of the comments regarding the Pelletgage. I guess if you already have a system set up and you’re happy with the results, you go with what you know.
I’d probably just go with the pelletgage and a good scale but I’m not trying to win thousands of $’s.
I’m unaware that there are thousands of dollars to win in field target competitions. To the best of my knowledge, the top prize is $1,000 for the Pyramyd Air Cup, but that includes a field target match along with other types of competitions. I believe clubs usually offer trophies, not cash, for winners.
To complete my thought — field target shooters do what they do for the love of the sport and for personal satisfaction. I think it’s like that in many sports.
Okay but don’t some of these guys basically do this for a living?
Field target is a hobby — not a paying sport. There is no real money in it — any more than there is money in 10-meter or anything else having to do with airguns.
I would suppose that sponser’s do supply (top) shooters with gear, guns, pellets, pumps, tanks, misc. “goodies”, etc., etc. ?
As for retirement income,……on to plan #2……… 😉
The top shooters may occasionally get some gear, but most are forking out their own hard-earned cash for almost everything. And, many of these guys travel far and wide — including internationally — to compete. And they pony up for the gas, airline tickets, hotels, etc. As I said in a previous comment, they do it for the love of the sport. Many of these shooters spend thousands a year on gear, guns and travel.
No one shoots field target (or any other airgun discipline) for a living. If you want to shoot for a living, you need to go over to firearms.
Maybe I did get the thousands of $”s from the show’s flyer and got that part wrong and I meant no offense, but I hope they will get some pellets outta the deal.
I see where Reb is comming from.
He wants results from his dollars.
We don’t nesicerily have to compete to want the same results.
I’m glad man.ufacturers are acknowledging their shortcomings but we’ve already paid in and to see them charge double for what they offered to start with kinda feels like we should get some extra lube. 🙂
Maybe there is really a reason why they charge more.
I was just addressing his belief that top field target shooters could either make a living shooting FT or that the top shooters are taken care of (like some are in firearms disciplines).
You know that makes me think of something else.
It would be nice to see what they dot o their guns verses a factory gun. I guess that’s probably top secret stiff though.
But I do think BB showed a picture once of the 54 air king that was modified with a different stock. And the gun was shorter I believe. But maybe I’m remembering wrong.
That was the rifle Ray Apelles uses. He shot it at the Pyramyd Air Cup last year. I don’t know if Ray will share his secrets with you, but he’s usually a very helpful guy.
Keep in mind that the rifle is only part of the equation. Ray is a great shot! I’m guessing he can pick up most air rifles and shoot unbelievably well with them. I think that’s probably true of all the top field target shooters.
Hector mentioned below to me that he uses a short stroke sub 12 fpe Diana 54.
So that was nice he shared that info.
And yes that’s were I remember seeing that now with Rays gun.
And your right about being a good shot with anything they pick up. Some people are like that. Some people have to work their butts off to get something to happen.
Correct. I don’t think any of us had a pellet gage at time of testing.
Ray, Hector, Paul and Greg
First I want to say a very well written and informative report that gives us all a much better insight as to just what it takes to shoot at the levels you all do on a daily basis. Looking forward to the future reports
I have not met you all personally but can associate faces with names as I do remember you from the Nationals last October in Heflin, Alabama since becoming a member of the Mount Cheaha Air Field Target Club and that is what got me started shooting FT as I had been shooting at home on a fun basis for a few months after spending some time dealing with health issues that made it necessary to find something I was still able to do with my hands and mind that was physically possible as I was an auto/motorcycle technician for all my life and worked for Harley as a research and development mechanic for 11 years in the durability department. Shooting and modifying air guns gives me the same enjoyment as did fixing vehicles but with much less exertion and strength required and keeps me busy with both mind and body and has took the place of the mechanic work.
I pulled my old 68 model Crosman 1400 out of the closet one day and started plinking again after over 20 years of collecting dust and was hooked again like when I was a kid. I have since amassed a small collection of pumpers, springers and PCPs that I enjoy shooting them all.
My main FT gun is a Crosman 177 Mrod that Ray I used your A team tuning guide to get it shooting far better than I am capable of and can say although nowhere near the levels that you all shoot at have managed to improve my scores by more kills on every match I have entered since November of last year after watching you all shoot here in Heflin, Alabama and if my memory serves me right which most times it is only there when it chooses to be, but I believe it was you Greg that took the top spot on that weekend with I believe Ray right on your heels.
I am very much in amazement as to the amount of effort you put into just selecting pellets for your matches to use in the particular gun you plan to shoot at any given time or match, but then I guess it was the same for me when building my dirt bikes many years ago and building my street bikes still today as my health permits as every one of the smallest details adds up to a huge difference in the big picture of ultimate performance regardless of whatever sport you embrace and strive to be the best at. My competitive motorcycle days are over but my FT days are just beginning and you have just opened many more doors for me to explore in the quest to become better with every match I shoot in so I want to thank you all for taking the time from your busy schedules to give us everyday shooters some very knowledgeable guidance into what it takes to be at the top of the hill.
Thanks so much BD
We had to skip last year’s Nationals. But we will do our best to be at Enice.
Thanks for your kind comments and your support.
I am sorry you did not make the nationals at Heflin,AL as I know that Greg and Ray were there as Greg took top spot.
I am as I said just a newcomer to FT shooting and so far am have a lot of fun and learning something new every match so it is a very fun sport and I have managed to better my score each match which is all I can hope for and again looking forward to the next report.
I am glad the tuning guide helped you out.
I was not on Gregs heels at the nationals last year as I was shooting a spring gun and I had a barrel leading up issue and switched over to a backup gun (fwb300) half way through on the second day. Found the leading issue when I got home. So I was way out of it at the nationals.
As mentioned in the report I only weigh my pellets as to sorting so far. I feel that has worked well enough for me. I have purchased a pellet gauge and inspector but haven’t used them yet. Still have a pretty good stash of weighed pellets so I have been lazy.
The portion of the report that I contributed to is in the second part reguarding accuracy. HTH
I am sorry at stating you were right on Greg’s heels in the Heflin national last October as I was just there as a spectator and was not as familiar with the different classes then as I am now and remember you sitting a few seats away from me and just thought I remembered you doing better but then my mind comes and goes when it chooses so the memory is not what it used to be.
Definitely looking forward to the accuracy report coming up and thank you again for all the info on installing my new regulator in the 177 Mrod FT gun I have so until the accuracy report keep shooting on target.
I must tell you though that the only prep I do with my pellets is to lube them. (I use Napiers) I give them a look when loading and if I detect a bent skirt or it feels “different” going into the gun I shoot it into the ground. I know Paul Cray (World and National Champ) and Harold Rushton (World top ten and National Champ) basically do the same. I don’t believe Paul even lubes his pellets.
I am presently involved in testing pellets that were air gauged for head size. I can tell you that the chrony test found no difference in FPS at the muzzle. Still need to test down range. In checking the sizes of 2000 pellets (JSB 7.9) only a couple of dozen were significantly off size.
I’ll post some results when testing is complete.
Thanks for that info on your pellet prep as I am still just learning to get my breathing and heart rate under control when shooting on our Ft range as hopefully you remember it is as much of a workout getting from station to station just to shoot as it is just to steady my aim as I have COPD/emphysema and heart issues so by the time I have moved from one station to the next I am winded and have an elevated heart rate.
I am just trying to get my sighting to be as steady as possible without all the swaying and movement in rhythm with my breathing and heart rate so my timing of the reticle crossing the kill zone is more important for me now than worrying about lubing and any kind of pellet sorting other than as you do by a quick feel and visual before loading and if its noticed before being chambered then it just thrown out and if not it is called and shot into the ground as you do. but I may try the Napier’s just to see if it makes any difference for me.
I am happy right now to just improve my score with each new match shot and so far I have accomplished that so for me I am only in competition with my self and so far have been able to better my shooting with each match.
So after this sorting process and segregating the weights and head sizes do you all go any farther and check other dimensions. If you don’t can you please tell why. If you do check other dimensions can you please tell why.
After you do sort do you just shoot the bunch of pellets that have the most of the same pellets with that dimension. Then what about the other pellets that measured other sizes. Do you put them in containers and collect more of them then shoot them in a session. Or do you say nope those pellets are not what we want for this gun.
Then on the balistics. Are you showing the waist expansion from the air blast or from the pellet impacting the target. How did you determine when the expansion happened and what does that mean to you when you get that information.
Sorry for all the questions but alot of good data there but nothing about how you use the data. Maybe I’m getting ahead of things and you will tie it all together in the accuracy part that will be next. And thanks was fun to read.
WRT measuring, this was work Hector did and is typically done just to understand and compare pellets which could help explain differences in performance.
For me personally, once I shoot different types of pellets in my gun 6 groups of 5 each, I narrow it down to the top 2 or 3. Then do more exhaustive testing between those. Once that pellet is determined, then I do further testing to determine what helps. If weighing is more definitive, good. If pellet head sizing makes more of a difference, good. I’m all about performance and outcomes. If it takes wearing a garlic clove necklace to shave .1 MOA of my groups, I’ll do that too 😉
Thanks for the info.
And I thought I was the only one that has a garlic clove necklace. 🙂
Garlic and string on the shopping list,……I knew you had something you were not telling me ! 😉
That’s only one of the top secret airgun tricks that shooters don’t share.
We each have different approaches.
For example: Ray weighs and sorts his pellets into lots by 0.01 of a grain, shooting in Matches those lots that have proven accurate in his gun, and practicing with almost all the others. BUT, I do not sort nor weight at all, just wash and lube and I’m done.
I did weigh for THIS article because it was one of the marketing “angles” being used by JSB and it had to be validated. Glad to say that all claims were proven absolutely true.
Between our two extremes, some people first wash, then lube, then weigh, then roll pellets on a glass (which determined conicity). With the advent of the PelletGauge and the Speedy Pellet Inspector, some people will undoubtedly start using those tools. It all depends on what works for YOU and YOUR gun.
On the waist deformation upon firing.- This is something I routinely do. It all started back when JSB came out with their first version of the 0.177″ Exact Heavies, that had a long slender “stick” joining head and skirt of a normal 8.44 to reach the 10.3 grs. When it was established that the INERTIA of the head being pushed into movement by the push of the tail/skirt was deforming the pellets, then the design was changed into what we now know. We know it is the inertia because even pellets that are completeley engraved and seated into the rifling, still show some waist enlargement.
Spring-Piston airguns (I use a Diana 54 short-stroked to sub-12 ft-lbs), do put more stresses into the pellet upon firing. SOME PCP’s can also be brutal (it all depends on the secondary setting of the regulator, if there is one), but some PCP’s deform the pellets very little. Since the ratio of head to waist is one factor defining the pellets’drag, it is important to know how close the pellet is when it comes out of the muzzle to the shape it was when it went in.
Knowing all this is an inherent part of doing a proper tune for high level competition guns.
Thanks for reading!
Thanks for all that info. And I have done alot of the things you mentioned. Probably more than I needed.
But one thing that I can see from your comment is that you have tested alot of different things with pellets. And it seems that you have done enough of the testing to know what you need to do to get the results you want.
I don’t competion shoot anymore but did when I was a kid. I haven’t really brought that up on the blog. I shot airguns at a local shooting range benchrest at 25 and 50 yards back in 1970 to 1975. I was around 11-16 years old back then. But my dad made me sort, weigh, measure and everything else to the pellets. And the guns were club purchased so we didn’t really have much time to shoot and practice so all the sorting was a way to have the one up in the other shooters.
But I think like what you say is you have to find what works for you. I did alot of testing when I got back into air guns about 6 years ago and have found what works and what don’t for the type of shooting I do.
But thanks for the info again. And can’t wait to see where the accuracy part of your reports will go.
Just noticed the dimensions of the pellet order I’ve got coming in and I don’t think they can fit a 11x11x11 box in my apt. Mailbox, I feel a few more sleepless afternoons coming. :/
That emoticon always reminds me of South park!
But at least your lucky enough to be ordering more shooting fun.
I’m about ready to stock up again. 🙂
This is the same order I placed back in May!
I think I’ve ever decided to stop pussyfooting around and start saving for a Sumatra in .25 , maybe. 🙂
Was it back ordered?
May 26th to be exact and no backorder.
I had to change the address twice and I guess neither took so they sent them to my old address & the Post office didn’t forward it.
2 major holidays just like the green swimming pool out front.
Tell me about that. I just got my Shoebox back from Buldawg and FedEx was suppose to deliver it Thursday. Guess what they update the tracking info as wrong address.
So I call FedEx and they have the right address. And the funny thing about it this same exact thing happened with them once when I first moved here. And they have delivered here at least 5 times since then.
I told Buldawg I was going to make a big sign and put out at the end of the driveway that says “FedEx here is (insert my address here)”from now on so they see it.
And there is like only 3 driveways on a 2 mile stretch of frontage road and one of them mine.
Oh well at least it came Friday so I had if for this weekend to shoot the new wood stock gen2 Marauder in .25 I got a week or so ago. Hand pump is for back up now or if I take the gun out on the 4 wheeler. And I’m only pumping the gun up this time around with the Shoebox. No buddy bottle filling any more for me. Took to long at the of the day. Now I just top the gun off with the Shoebox and I’m done.
You getting old there or what ? Or,…maybe,…older (and) smarter ? 😉
Older for sure. But I’m still having problems with myself on the smart part of it.
But dog gone it I’m trying. 🙂
Here are my “Top Ten” questions:
1) How are the “standard” color coded pellets used by the pneumatic sizing device measured to establish the standard?
2) Is there an observable variance, if the standard .177 or .22 pellet is compared to a pellet of the same caliber but significantly different shape, for example, a domed field trial pellet to a flat “wad cutter” target pellet?
3) Are there dies and “standard” pellets available for measurement comparison of .20 and .25 cal pellets?
4) Can the pneumatic device be calibrated and tested for accuracy by measuring a high quality pin gage rather than a reference pellet as a “gold standard”, as can an aperture gage?
5) Iis it important or not if the head is slightly out of round?
6) Is it implied, or might one infer, that the air gage is doing something more than measuring the pellet head size — that is, potentially measuring how it may fly through the air after leaving the bore as well as how it will fit the bore?
7) What is the threshold for incremental head size difference that demonstrably affects shooting accuracy?
8) What level of accuracy and precision of pellet measurement (size and weight) is actually required to observe a repeatable, measurable benefit in air gun shooting accuracy, all things other than the pellet being equal?
9) What is the price of the pneumatic device (excluding air compressor, reloading press, and hearing protection) versus calipers or a simple multiple aperture pellet gage?
10) What is the actual cost/benefit ratio for the potential consumer interested in using any device to size pellets (or purchase premium size-sorted pellets)?
It will indeed be interesting to see the information provided as the blog continues. A heads up comparison of available pellet head size measuring devices (calipers, aperture gage, pneumatic air gage) when used on a set of high quality pin gages and then used on an identical sample of 100 unmeasured pellets would be a most informative metric.
Thanks, guys, for representing the USA so well. Am I right that the four members of the USA Field Target team are also the four top-ranked field target shooters in the world? The blog has speculated that field target shooting is among the most demanding of all shooting disciplines and that firearms shooters from SWAT teams, the military, and competitive shooting do not fare particularly well which means that… Anyway, thanks for your dedication and for sharing your knowledge with the blog.
No surprise about the JSB pellets although it’s nice to hear confirmation. Those pellets have always had a very good reputation. I even have a stock myself although they are a higher quality than I can do justice to.
Thank you for your kind words. The “roster” holds a lot more shooters. The shooters that participated in THIS test were the best 4 from TEAM USA.
To be precise, the current rankings in the WFTF’s roster (World Field Target Federation, that will change after Lithuania’s World Matches) are:
Paul Plauche.- 3rd PCP
Greg Sauve.- 5th PCP
Ray Apelles 2nd Spring Piston
Hector Medina 5th Spring Piston
So, while not the top 4 of ALL shooters, we are not too shabby either! 😉
FT is whatever you want to make it. But, ABOVE ALL, it is an extremely friendly sport. I invite you to look for an FT Club near you and go to a Match. Take an airgun, ANY airgun. I am sure you will have a ton of fun and, possibly, find a whole lot of new friends!
Since both you and ray shoot springer’s, would it be possible for the two of you to supply me with the chamber dimensions of your rifles? I assume that it would be similar to the leade reamed into the chamber of a firearm which of course is straight for a distance from the groove diameter and tapers to the bore diameter. I have been curious about this for quite sometime. I realize of course that this may be proprietary information and if so I will understand.
Pretty impossible to give chamber dimensions or to get them. To measure a fixed barrel springer is pretty tough. Sorry but I not up my ally.
I totally understand since all of my air rifles are also fixed barrel springer’s, two under lever, the rest side lever. Difficult enough to load at times except for the IZH 61 and certainly not easy or safe to cast the chamber without disassembling them. A break barrel would be a walk in the park, but I don’t own one, yet.
What is your favorite brand of pellet with weight and head size for your rifle?
I use the AA 8.4gr in 4.52 head diameter. I also use the 8.4 grain exacts.
Last big order I placed with Pyramyd Air was for 80 tins looking for all the same lot number. Pyramyd gets them in 50 tin quantities per lot number so I ended up with 30 and 50 of 2 different lot numbers. Previous order was for 60 tins 30 of which were the same lot number. I then weighed all 30 tins to get consistent weights broken up. I then use all of the same weight when I go to an event. I can see the groups tighten up with the heavy and light ones eliminated.
I am now shooting an FWB300s mini this year and it seems less pellet fussy so I have been using them straight from the tin at the local matches but will use weighed pellets at the big events.
Shooting the lower powered (compared to my normal WFTF guns) FWB300s forces me to work harder in the wind which in turn teaches me more about dealing with the wind. Sort of like training harder in boot camp so the real thing will be easier later.
So many people try to shoot at higher and higher power levels to beat the wind and never really learn how to read and compensate for it. My philosophy is to learn the wind, which was always the intention and the spirit of the game (Field Target) as it was designed in the UK.
I try to set up all of my guns to shoot between 11 and 11.5 ftlbs with the 8.4 grain pellet. (FWB300s will never do that. I am using it to train harder in the wind.) That way no mater which gun I pickup to shoot they all use the same wind holdover. Just a matter of consistency.
Many people may have noticed that the FT scores from the lower powered WFTF shooters are now coming up to and many times surpassing the 20 ftlb FT shooter. I believe this is because of the wind compensation skills that are required in the WFTF classes. The higher powered (20ftlb) shooters really aren’t learning the wind but trying to beat it. FT is not a boxing match but a symbiosis.
Sorry for rambling and getting off topic.
Hi, Ray. Somewhat frightening that you may have been shooting straight from the tin for your Saturday DIFTA result. Pleasure shooting with you.
Yes Jan they were straight from the tin and I am pretty sure I lost one shot due to it and possibly 2 more on that tiny close one that Jerry and I both missed twice. I had a good hold and follow through and can’t understand how both shots missed. One maybe but both I couldn’t believe. So sorted pellets may have given me 1 to possibly even 3 more points. If they were normal KZ’s then sorted pellets probably wouldn’t have helped or needed to be helped.
Wow. Fantastic shooting!
WOW, that is a lot! Forty thousand pellets, around forty-eight pounds of lead, how many boxes were required for shipping? Your barrels should be well burnished by now, the bores probably shine like a mirror!
You are correct, being able to dope the wind is imperative. I used to shoot the M14 service rifle in competition many years ago and wind can tear you up at 300 yards and beyond. When you speak of “wind holdover”, are you getting vertical shot displacement also or just horizontal?
You can make a chamber in a PCP barrel that you take out of the gun, but it is pretty darned hard to “chamber” a spring gun.
In my guns, I adopted a different approach: I made a probe that actually seats the pellet into the rifling just a little. Always consistent, and always in good alignment because the shape of the probe is determined by the hollow of the skirt of the pellet the barrel likes best.
Hope I am making sense.
Thanks for reading!
Let me try this again. I was almost ready to post my reply when the power to my computer from my battery backup/surge suppressor dropped out for no particular reason. I just finished installing a new one a few minutes ago.
It is interesting that you use a tool to seat your pellets to a uniform depth. Approximately how deep do you seat them from the base of the skirt to the mouth of the chamber? I assume that you start them by hand, thumb, forefinger, thumb, then use the tool for the final seating. How did you arrive at the proper angle for the base of the pellet? I checked the external skirt angles on a few different pellets a while ago on an optical comparator, they were all different, not from the same tin, but different manufacturers used different angles. I do not know if the internal and external angles coinside or not.
What is the capacity and +/- resolution of your .00 grain scale and what brand is it? That is really splitting hairs! Good grief, washing, weighing, sizing, lubricating pellets makes reloading ammunition for firearms child’s play! I have a lot to learn.
Sorry if I did not explain myself well, BugBuster. I do NOT use a tool. I made changes to the breech seal/compression cylinder area that create a “seating tool” of sorts. Pellet is only seated about 1/64th past the skirt end, but more important than the depth of seating is that the “tool” matches the inside of the pellet’s skirt (not the outside) that the barrel likes best. Thereby ensuring as good an an alignment as possible. There is an angle between the inside walls and the outside walls. Each manufacturer has different preferences that are dictated by how they shape their dies and punches.
I do insert them with two fingers and press a little with the thumb, but the “built-in tool” does the rest.
On the scale.- the resolution is +/- 0.02 grs. Even though it is advertised as 0.01, the reality is that the binary arithmetic of the internal chip makes it truly reliable only within 0.02 grs.
Top weight I can measure is 300 grs. (not even a large 0.458″ elephant bullet, LOL!)
There are several brands in Amazon or EBay that will be affordable and reliable, MAINLY, you need a good, stable, flat table and UNIFORM temperature if you want significant results.
As to all this “processing” of the pellets we shoot, again I insist: some people may do all the processing, some may not. It is all up to the shooter.
I maintain that shooting is a psychological sport. If you think something will help, it will. If you doubt your equipment, you will fail. It is MOSTLY in our minds.
One thing is true: shooting airguns to the level of precision that is needed in FT and Benchrest IS more complicated and difficult than shooting the 1,000 yards courses with a 0.338″ Lapua Magnum.
And THAT is what makes it so much fun!
Do find out where you can shoot an FT Match and join us!
Hector, first let me apologize for the late reply. I had a “senior moment” that day and was not in a very good mood, then the bad news that Tom posted concerning Edith was weighing on my mind. She is such a super lady, I am very pleased to hear that she is now on the road to recovery!
You are shooting a modified RWS/Diana 54, which is recoil-less and has a sliding compression chamber correct? From your description, I envision a frustum of a cone attached somehow, possibly threaded, into to the face of the compression cylinder, central to the air transfer port. Upon closing, the cone enters the base of the pellet and pushes it near .4 mm farther into the breech of the barrel and simultaneously removes any out of round condition within the skirt of the pellet.
I certainly believe that +/- .02 grain resolution is plenty sufficient. I have yet to graduate beyond +/- .1 grain as of yet, I do have one scale though that will weigh +/- .25 ounce but it will weigh up to 220 pounds, good for weighing rifles and other heavy objects. One thing, I believe you forgot to mention, I am pretty sure is that when using your scale, you have to be in a draft free environment! I know how my 1500 grain capacity +/- .1 grain resolution scale reacts to a slight draft, not favorably.
I agree with your statement that shooting can be psychological to a degree in that you have to have absolute confidence in your equipment, rifle, pistol, scope, ammo, etc., etc. However, the proper state of mind will not overcome poor shooting habits, that takes practice and lots of it. A positive attitude only goes so far.
I can understand the challenge of FT. Due to the relatively low velocities generated by airguns compared to firearms and the relatively poor ballistic coefficient of the pellets, even a slight breeze could play havoc with your scores.
I have only shot 1000 yards once in my lifetime, that was almost twenty years ago when I belonged to The .50 Caliber Shooters Association. I was using my Harris/ McMillan model 87R .50 BMG rifle topped with a Weaver T-16 scope, the ammo was TCCI match reloads loaded with 750 grain solid bronze SPBT bullets, the recoil was punishing, VERY punishing. The Harris designed muzzle brake was in my opinion not very efficient for its intended purpose! My best five shot group was 12.0625″, two eights, two nines and one X, windage was good, I was just shooting too high. It turned out to be the fifth smallest group fired during the match out of ninety (groups) total, each competitor fired six, five shot groups for record, three each day, the smallest was 7.9375″. The highest score was a forty-eight out of a fifty possible, two competitors achieved this. I had an excellent string going on my fourth group on day two, four shots in the ten ring then the fifth and last in the seven ring at five o’clock ARRGH! Not too shabby though for a first time rookie, in a new game, shooting a factory rifle in the “light class”, twenty-four pounds or less, “heavy class”, fifty pounds or less. They later added an “unlimited class” which was anything you could carry, drag or tow up to the firing line!
The closest FT match for me would be the Pyramyd Air Cup in Ohio. Do you plan to attend? I really don’t own a competitive rifle that would be up to the task, including the shooter (me), too many bad habits, old eyes, so on and so forth. The closest suitable rifle that I presently own is a stock RWS 48 in .177 caliber topped with a Hawke 3X12X44 mm varmint scope. The rifle is definitely hold sensitive, I mostly shoot Crosman 10.5 grain ultra mags through it but have some JSBs and H&Ns in that weight range also. I just haven’t experimented with them much. I purchased a pellet gage months ago and haven’t even assembled it yet!
Your understanding is quite good. I cannot reveal here the specific architecture, but you’re pretty much spot on.
I routinely shot 1,000 yards in England, back in 1981. We used the service 7.62X51 NATO with arsenal cartridges and iron sights. Groups were not as good as yours, but then the game is different. We shot 9 shots, 2 sighters and 7 for score. The 10 ring is exactly 24″ across (shoulders width).
Our team ended up second across all the Imperial Meeting in the Universities category. Thanks for bringing back the memories!
Yes we plan on attending the Ohio Pyramyd Air Cup Match.
Please, DO plan on going, there will be long range shooting (Pay Day Challenge), Silhouette, the Gunslinger (which is a speed silhouette of sorts), and, of course FT. Plus there will be all sorts of guns to test and see and drool over! LOL!
I am sure you would have a lot of fun!
And your Diana 48 is perfectly suited for any competition. You could shoot with other people shooting low magnification scopes if you enter in the “Hunter” Division, Piston Class that limits scopes to 12X. You can use a bipod and a seat of any sort you want, as long as it has no back nor armrests. You would be shooting in the “Sportsman” section with other people that have not had competitive experience in airguns.
Do some accuracy checking and if you can put 10 shots into 1″ at 55 yards MOST of the times, then pack up and be at the Ohio shoot.
There will be lots of interesting things and people around. A true Schützenfest in the best of the traditional sense of the word.
Hope to see you there!
Excellent conversation guys!
I had to look up Cristina but got some ideas going already.
I’ve got a QB-36 that I was getting ready to modify the transfer port on. I’d love to direct the air blast to the center of the base of the pellet as well as seal the skirt to the bore.
Thanks Hector and Bugbuster!
I saw my phone setting me up by suggesting Cristina for gristle and thought I had steered outta that mess but I see it there so it got me again.
Hector, I am old, mechanically inclined and have a machinist background, among other things. Based on your description, I took an educated guess as to how it MIGHT work. If I was totally off base, it would not hurt my feelings in the slightest, I have been wrong before and will probably be wrong again before I expire. The only way to avoid that situation is to not do or say anything, then you cannot make mistakes! I am not ready to do that just yet.
Your 1000 yard shooting in England caught my attention, that is about the same time frame that I started shooting service rifle for the U.S. Army. We used the M14 at the time which was obviously chambered in 7.62X51 mm NATO. We only shot out to 600 yards though, I no longer recall the dimensions of the targets except that they were quite large, up close, when you were pulling/scoring them, not so much when you had them in your sights. The sights on the M14 were identical to those on the WWII M1 Garand with the exception that the National Match sights had a half minute, hooded rear aperture and a .0625″ width front sight. We used Lake City National Match Ammunition initially, then the loading was changed to use the Sierra 168 grain international HPBT bullet. Either one was much more accurate than the standard 150 grain ball ammo at the longer ranges. What rifle and type of ammunition were you shooting at that time? Were you in the U.S. military then and stationed in England?
I will do some research on the PAC and give some serious consideration to attend and possibly even compete, if I do, I will definitely look you up and introduce myself, I would be pleased to meet you and return your hug.
I will try my 48 at 55 yards and see what it will do and will go from there.
Please don’t get me wrong, but I feel we are straying from the Airgun theme. We are guests here and I really think we should not abuse to Tom’s patience nor bandwidth. Specially under the current circumstances.
But; I would love to buy you a beer in Ohio, and we can then talk at will and at length. Specially if we meet at the welcome dinner!
Hi its buldawg76 again and was just wondering if you can give some advice on an off topic question I have on a 177 Gen 1 Mrod I use for my FT matches. I have it tuned for JSB 10.34s shooting at an average of 925 fps for the hunter class limit of 20 fpe so its right at 19.8 to 19.5 fpe depending on the beginning or end of the shot string of 30 to 35 shots.
My question is I have purchased a Huma regulator with the integrated valve port option in it and was wanting to set it so I can maintain as close to the 925 fps average I am shooting now with the tune the gun is in of 2 1/4 turns out with air screw, zero hammer stroke and 5 1/4 turns hammer spring preload Can you recommend a pressure to set the regulator to so that I only have to install it once and then just fine tune the air screw and hammer from there to get the 925 fps for hopefully 60 shot or so as our Ft matches are mostly 44 total shots so I am hoping to only have to fill at the start of the match and shoot the 11 lanes of 44 total shot on one fill. Also I have read on forum that when installing a regulator in the Mrods it is a good mod to use a lighter hammer such as one between 19 to 26 grams that Motorhead ( Scott ) used to sell by themselves and was going to get one from Motorhead off the GTA but he only sells them with a tune done by him now so they are not available by themselves but I do have the capability to make my own but was just curious if it is really a necessity or just makes tuning easier, but could still be tuned without the lighter hammer to as good of a flat curve as it can with the lighter hammer and the 925 fps average I am seeking from it.
Your thoughts would very much appreciated and welcomed.
I am sorry, but I have no solid experience with Crosman airguns. The ideal person to answer you would be Ray.
I do have to say that I am surprised that your gun is accurate at such high MV’s.
While for us it is a rule issue (World Field Target Federation limits muzzle energies to 12 ft-lbs.), in general, even for Open/American Airgun FT, we try to keep the MV’s at under the 875 fps maximum that a lot of us have found is the stability threshold.
PERHAPS (and I am not saying that it is the only way to go), you could do some accuracy testing at 850 – 875 fps and then decide at which MV you want to start all the process of regulating, hammer balance, optimum secondary setting for the regulator, etc.
I would hate to see you go through a lot of work, only to start again if you detect better accuracy at slightly lower MV’s.
I have been told that as well by some of the WTFT shooter in our club as well of which some have been national champs so I do believe what you say but my Mrod does put pellet on top of pellet at 50 yards very easy so that is why I shoot at that velocity and I am allowed to be at 20fpe in the hunter Ft class.
I have it tuned to that power level to keep as flat a trajectory as possible to minimize the amount of hold over as we are not allowed to click in our class so being in the competition less than a year I am most definitely still learning but have continued to improve with each match. I will try tuning it to the 850 to 875 fps you say it should be best at and see how it performs but I just don’t want my hold overs to increase as the way it is tuned right now with a 40 yard zero sight in it is a dead zero hold from 20 to 40 yards and one mil dot under from 40 to 55 yards and 2 mil dots under from 20 to 10 yards so it is very little to have to remember as far as hold under mil dots goes and that is using a 1.2 inch kill zone diameter.
If you would/could run my above questions about this by Ray and see if he would respond as I was actually wanting him to reply but it seemed that you were replying for all of the team as I had not seen him answer any question asked on the blog you all were so gracious to provide for us .
Again thanks for your time
I meant using a 1/2 inch kill zone diameter not 1.2 inches
For that power level I would go between 1900 psi and 2000 psi. Probably need the 2000 psi.
What is the current pressure in the gun after you do your shot string. Right where the velocity starts to go down based on the way you have it adjusted right now. Then add 100 to 150 psi to the reg setting when adding the reg.
That is a good rule of thumb.
For the rest of your question you really need our tuning guide. Our website has been down but you can email me for it or go to the Crosman PCP forum off of the yellowforum.com and ask questions there and I am sure someone can email you our tuning guide.
Light hammer helpfull in regulated gun to get more shots but not mandatory
I will have to shoot it to see just where my string starts to fall off as it was a year ago that I tuned it and it was done so using your A team tuning guide as it is in my documents folder on my PC so most definitely very good info.
I fill my gun to 2900/3000 psi at the start of the match and refill at the 6th lane in our 11 lane Ft range so I never let it get close to the bottom of the shot string pressure but knowing that I can shoot a string on the chrony and see what pressure it is at when it starts to drop off the power curve and set to 100 to 150 above that is what I was looking for in a setting for the regulator.
I can no longer get one of Scott’s hammers which were either 19 grams or 26 grams so I was going to make my own and what would you say would be an ideal weight range to use. The 19 to 26 grams that Scott was selling or do you think another weight would be better for my tune I am using.
Not sure if you read the settings I have it at above so if not it is at 2 1/4 turns out on air screw, zero hammer stroke turns and 5 1/4 turns out on hammer spring tension and is a Gen 1 Mrod
Thanks for your time Ray and valuable info.
The light one we did was 41.6 grams.
BE careful. Years ago we did a really light on in an NJR and it slowly deformed over time and bound up in the reciever causing slower velocities. Took a long time to happen which is always at a match.
We lightened a factory hammer to the 41.6 to 45.6 on the 2 we lightened.
Sounds great as that is again what I wanted to know so thank you very much and I will let you know how it all works out when I get it completed and tuned.
I finally decided to print a group of JSB10.34’s through the QB-36, since it spits them out with authority. I always thought they’d be too heavy for it but it actually seems to like them. Now I gotta see what the chrony says⊙
Interesting that the box of JSB’s Premium’s state that they are sorted to .001g. If they are in fact sorted to that level, I do believe they have set the “bar” high,…..REALLY high !
As a side note, the JSB’s have been some of my best shooters. Various grains in .22. ( and I might add, some of the nicest loading,… not too tight, not too loose,….just right )
I’ve been running wadcutters through my QB-36 and find the round noses on the JSB’S much easier.
Reb and did you notice what Hector said about the waist on the 10.34 JSB’s above when he made his comment to me.
Read his comment above please.
Yeah, I caught the part where JSB had to beef em up to avoid deformation.
Got to the bottom of that tin I got from you, found one bent skirt in That whole tin.
Gotta lay down for a bit.
If you were to compare two versions of a rifle — say it’s your favorite TX — besides the difference in weight, is there any other difference when comparing that same rifle with a beech vs walnut stock? Any difference in hold requirement, accuracy, etc?
Yes. Walnut is a hard wood, but it is very soft compared to beech. It dents and scratches more, but is much easier to maintain if it has an oil finish. Beech has to have a synthetic sprayed finish and is difficulty to touch up and refinish. Beech is more like maple.
BB–I am aware of the history of the Bronco and its stock. In my humble opinion, I would have preferred a copy of a military stock ( 1903, M1 Garand). If the Bronco was a powerhouse hunting rifle, I could understand it,s western style stock. I seldom shoot my llever rifles, except to check the zero before hunting, or work up new handloads I often shoot my military target rifles . The sights on the Bronco (peep and post) are so close to my 1903, A3 and M1 that it would be a perfect practice rifle to keep me in shape for high power matches. Who was the stockmaker who created the Bronco stock? would like to find out if he could make me a custom Bronco stock that I could afford. Ed
It’s been many years and a hospital visit since I had the stock made. I will try to find stock projectthe information, but don’t hold your breath.
But I do know an excellent stockmaker. He is the guy who fixed the Falke 90 stock for me.
Doug Phillips in Houston is an excellent stockmaker.
I just wanted say thanks for letting these guys do a guest blog. It is a nice change of pace from the regular blogs.
Oh and I don’t mean the regular blogs ain’t interesting. It was just kind of a surprise in a sense or a treat if you will to see the A team doing a blog. And more to come from them. So that’s great.
And I thought that was nice that they took the time to give detailed answers to everybody’s questions. I thought there would of been more. But I guess when part 2 comes around and its suppose to be about accuracy maybe more topics will open up.
But I would like to say thanks to you and them. And will be waiting for part 2 and 3 and so on.
There’s a part 2 but not a part 3.
I “second” all the above. Yes, it is a “treat”. And,…very nice on the responses from the “A” team.
This, and articles like the Pelletgage, are nice examples of current “front line” reporting.
It is nice that BB is in the know with people. If you know what I mean.
I know that’s why this blog is always such a success is that BB is always on top of what people are talking about.
I’m sure BB realized the need for this. But I really should shut up because I don’t know how this transpired. But I am happy it did.
A part 2 only is fine also. 🙂
They’re supposed to combine parts2&3 for a single accuracy report and that’s what really matters so I’m definitely waiting for that report. I have a question; Will that test be conducted with sorted pellets,out of the tin or both?
Dog gone it Reb you know accuracy obssesed snob me is waiting for the accuracy part also.
So yes that’s a good comparison there.
Out of the tin shooting compared to sorted pellet shooting.
Thought somebody should let em know what we were wanting outta this test and woulda just waited to see but I’ve done that before and was sometimes let down so I figured I’d just vocalize it
Yep got to ask the questions now. May not have the chance later on. Because of multiple reasons.
And what is it hurting to ask. Should just end up more information shared.
The snobs I remember don’t share important information. So I think you’re in the clear.
Just have’n fun. That’s it.
Edith, I would like to apologize if my comments sound curt but this little piece of screen I have to type in only holds so many characters before I’m typing blind, that’s how I failed typing, if I can’t see it I don’t know what I’ve already said or what I still want to. or what the finished product seems to convey.
You have no reason to apologize. I’m sure accessing the blog and making comments with a smart phone must sometimes be maddening.
On the Champion 499, very nice,….but a bit short on pull. 😉 A blast none the less. Accuracy at 21′ is nice.
The Diopter rear and globe front sight are a wonder. Never looked through one before. Very easy to aquire and hold a bullseye.
Nice fit and finish for what it is. I can recommend it.
Interesting, the Red Ryder and the 499 safety’s do NOT automaticly re-set. Nice for experienced shooters, but not sure about the youngins.
Also, the manual says the butt stock is set up to accept weight,…as in hollowed out. Just plinkers, but fun none the less. 🙂
Can you sandwich a weight between the buttplate and the stock?
I am mistaken !!! 🙁 …..per the manual,….” the (forearm) has cavities inside so that you can add additional weight”
I think if a “tune” is in the future, it will be on the pull…..
My last attempt to submit claimed it was a duplicate:
Pull length or pull weight?
If you’re talking about pull length then I’d Pick out a nice buttpad, fit it and add length if still necessary and you’d be able to stand it in the corner with much less concerned about those sweet sights.
Lenght of pull. The butts are too small for any re-coil pad that you could buy. Plus, you need more than that to bring it anywhere close to std. adult length of pull. I will most likely leave them as is. They are what they are.
The sights are cool. I can see the attraction to them on higher end airguns. As I said, it was the first time even looking through peep/globe sights.
And like I said too, the fit and finish are nice, the lever action is smooth and the trigger ain’t half bad.
Never shot a 499 but I ‘ve shot a 99 that had sights a lot like they have and saved my money for one to wind up with a RedRyder, which felt great at 7 years old.
Did you ever think bb guns could be so cool.
I had bb and pellet rifles as a kid. As I said before in the past, I would love to see them come out with an 1894 replica, albeit a bit higher quality than the original. The Walther just don’t cut it for “looks” in my book. The stock is way out of proportion to accommodate the Co2. Nice, I am sure though.
Yes, they are cool in their own way. I just got em’ for a little indoor plinking alternative and nostalgia.
I had the opportunity to shoot the Walther 1894 at last month FT match and although it may look out of proportion in the pictures in person it looks like the real thing as I actually thought it was the 30/30 real gun from 20 feet away and was very surprised to find out it was the pellet gun instead.
Its proportions are very close if not exact to a real 1894 along with the weight and balance of it. If I was in the market for a fun and very accurate replica pellet gun with a extremely high shot count out of the CO2 cartridge the 1894 would be it as I know out of the 7 or 8 of us their that all got to shoot 10 shots or more with it being mostly more Ken never did have to change the cartridge and at the end of probably 400 plus pellets it was finally starting to loose power. They say it is an accurate ten meter gun but we were hitting spinners at 25 to 50 yards over and over with it with open sights and the 8 shot clips make it fun to shoot as fast as you can cycle the lever action and it did not seem to lose much velocity when rapid firing as most CO2 gun tend to do.
I do know at 450 bucks it is way out of my interest range for a replica gun but it was a blast to shoot and extremely accurate as well.
Good to hear from you. Thank you for that first hand report. I do not know if you have the Volume 7 P.A. catalog or not, Sig Sauer black rifle on cover, but if you do, look at page 8. The 2 are shown 1 above the other.
At least to my eyes, that is WAY out of proportion. But that is the bb gun compared to the Walther. Maybe the firearm comes closer to the Walther ?
How’s the “tunes” coming along ? Still getting data on groups with the HO tune on this end. Rain today, but did get to shoot 60+ shots yesterday.
I misunderstood you on the model 1894 you were referring to was the Daisy one as yes it is way out of proportions as compared to the Walther and a real 1894 so yes big difference for sure.
I can say the Walther is worth the 450 as it has the real weight and feel of a firearm and is way understated in terms of its accuracy potential as I stated above that it would hit spinners at 50 yards with ease on open sights, just out of my budget for a replica gun as you can by a real one for that today although I already have a model 1894 that was bought back in 75 for 89 bucks so no need for two.
Got the 25 Mrod tuned to what it will do until my total overhaul into a bottled, regulated AR style power house in the near future, but right now it is shooting JSB 25.39 grainers at an average of 912.9 fps for a ten shot string with a high of 919.2 and low of 904.7 for an ES of 14.50 fps at 47.65 fpe and 1.6 % spread so it is shooting very good but no grouping testing with it yet.
I did shoot in my monthly FT match yesterday with my 177 Gen 1 Mrod and had my best day yet and improved by over 50% with a score of 25 out of a total 44 possible. My previous score was a 17 out of 44 so that’s a huge improvement for me and I am very happy with it and continue to improve with every match so that is all that matters to me as I am only in competition with myself and no one else. 5 of those 25 were three at the kneeling lane and two at the off hand standing lane which in the past have been and automatic 8 missed so that is another huge improvement for me as well.
Glad you are getting more time in with the HO kit and I assume you are happier with it than the 12 fpe kit you had at first. It sounds as though you shoot every chance possible and that’s what it takes to become better every time you shoot so just stick with it and it will come to you a little more every day.
That is awesome that you are getting better and better at FT. 🙂
Yup,…..still happy with the HO. I could shoot after work, but with the set up, (pretty minimal in actuality),…most of the time I am too whooped and mentaly tired. That’s not a good combo for good groups.
Going B.B.’s style on the .25 huh ? Cool, I like it. Much better than the stock version. I would do it too.
That would be yes and no on BBs style for the 25 as yes it will be an AR style with a modular stock and AR stock and pistol grip but that is where the similarity ends.
Mine will have a 550 cc bottle fed regulated WAR valved air cylinder that is stated to be capable of making 100 fpe out of it but I am going for around 70 fpe with a shot count of 40 plus at that level but will have to see just what that big bottle will give in terms of shot count but I do know at the tune level it has right now I would get in excess of 60 shot per fill.
After I sell the stuff I got from GF1 with all the mods I am doing to make it a completed gun I will have less than a grand in it in the full blown power house form so I will be reporting much more when I get all the funds to complete the transformation from a mild mannered Clark Kent to full blown superman 25 cal gun.
I will provide pics when completed.
I’ve been checking out the Sumatra in .25. @ just over $500 it’s already built and who needs more than 6 shots from a hunting rifle.The lever action looks like it would be very easy to keep on target while chambering any follow up one might deem necessary
I have checked out the Sumatra as well and most certainly do not care for tis looks and definitely want more than 6 shots in any rifle per fill so it is not an option for me.
Besides I already have the 25 I want and would rather build my own gun than buy one already made as it will not meet my high standards in what I want so I would have to modify it as well and there are no parts for the Sam Yangs to hop them up like the Mrods have as they are the small block chevies of the air gun world.
Just my opinion and likings and the Sam Yangs are just not a good looking gun to me but rather odd ball looking in my opinion.
Update on the 25 Brod as I just ordered all my parts to complete my build and after talking to Dave at RAI innovation I found out that the stock that is used by Wicked Air Rifles is made by Dave at RAI so it is much closer to the gun BB is building than I realized as the only difference since I just ordered the butt stock with swing out stock and thru hole for spring adjustment is the 550 cc bottle that can be filled to 3500 psi and dropdown adapter that has the foster fill fitting and gauge ports in the block plus being regulated for better shot count and consistent fps spread in the high power I am looking for and I am going to tune for it to shoot the new JSB 33.95 grain pellets at 950 fps for just under 69 fpe power.
I will just have to see if it will group at 100 yards at that power level and pellet combination.
I thought a Walther LGU was the next gun you were going to get? Just ask’n. 🙂
And how you going to catch them bb’s inside. You got a teap made up yet?
Yep, still the LGU. Just asking about the Walther lever action.
As for a “teap”,…errrr,…trap,…yea, I have had 2 for quite awile. 1 @ 21′ and another at 41′.
Just re-did the 41′ recently, as you may recall ? Doing the 21′ as we speak.
Both can take a hit from the TX at 5′,….chrony testing. Steel backed plywood crates modded a bit.
I just don’t like them bb ricochets.
And was wonder if your traps would contain a bb.
And you know what my phone just did it again and I corrected it. I think once it see’s that a word got entered and accepted it just stays with it. It’s doing capital U instead of capital I right now also. And yes I had to turn auto correct off again.
I like my phone but it sure trys to be a pain in the butt if I don’t baby sit it.
Yes they will,….once the bb punches the cardboard backer,….it ain’t got enough “umph” to get back out of the wood crate. I say “crate”, but really they are only 20″x20″x12″ deep.
The 21′ crate is in the living room, same end as the TV. I sit at a table in the dining room.
For 41′, I move to the living room end, and shoot back through the living room, through the dining room and down the entrance hall.
It’s a ranch with a pretty open floor plan,…so the “rooms” are not actually rooms, but rather areas. The “tune bench” is in the middle of the kitchen.
Hey,…I am single,….so I can get away with all the above listed “interior decorating”. 😉
I kept a set of sbc 400 heads mounted to my coffee table for 3 months one time.
I got a pretty understanding wife.
I shot everything from air soft guns to air guns to rimfire guns in the basement throughout time.
And we had a few different airsoft targets set up in the living room at the old house.
I have a big basement at this house. I will for sure get it acquainted to the smell of gun powder and the air guns I have over the winter. Always have and always will.
Maybe Ralphie’s mom already knew that when she told him he’d “shoot his eye out”. Just sayin’
I guess it’s a good thing I already took my bloopressure medication!
Of course they’re going to charge more, they have to handle them again. And I commend JSB for being first up. What say ye H&N?
But now you see where that leads us, everybody’s gonna come out with a “premium” line they charge more for, but what’s that supposed to mean If they’re already top shelf?
You got it.
I need to run this by you so you can see what you think.
I don’t know if this is because of the new system or what. But I just decided to take a break from shooting and read the blog. And I find that there are comments made to me. But I did not get a email notification from the people that replied to me.
But one exception I did get a email evertime that you replied to me. I checked my spam folder just to see if the other peoples comments ended up there.
Kind of had this happen a long time back but not since. Do you think since you are basically the moderator if you will that your email sends automatically.
And remember I’m not that great with this computer stuff so I figured I would run it by you.
Thanks in advance.
Scratch what I just said. Sort of.
I just know got a email reply from Chris USA from his blog response.
I guess a delay or something. Oh well another one of those internet time warp things.
Sorry to bother.
Hector, I have done some research about the PAC and may be interested in FT in the hunter class as you had suggested, provided my 48 and I am up to the task. I will have to do some position shooting and see how that goes, it has been a long time for me, close to three decades. Are there any shooting aids (equipment) that you would recommend? I will also have to invest in a new pair of shooting glasses, my old B&L have glass lenses and are not wrap around so they will have replaced by polycarbonate ones.
Since you shot there last year, can you briefly explain which positions are required across the course? Also what does “staging pellets”mean? I realize that this does not apply to FT, but I believe to the Gunslinger course, would you please explain that term to me?
As near as I can figure, since I reside in Southwestern Pennsylvania, it would be around a two hour drive for me, no big deal, except one thing, all the idiots you encounter on the highway these days! I absolutely abhor driving in this day and age.
Hopefully, we will have that beer, or two. What is your favorite brand?
The absolute best thing that could possibly happen at the PAC this year would be for Tom and Edith to attend!