Webley Mark II Service: Part 5

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Webley Mark II Service
Webley Mark II Service air rifle.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • The test
  • Artillery hold?
  • RWS Hobbys
  • Shooting left-handed
  • Eley Wasps
  • The peep sight
  • One last group of Hobbys
  • Where to from here?

Today we start looking at the accuracy of the Webley Mark II Service air rifle. You will recall that my redneck breech seal fix got the rifle performing again. Whether or not it is up to full par is questionable, but at least it’s shooting okay.

I decided to begin with the sporting rear sight that’s attached to the barrel and then switch to the peep sight that flips up. Good thing I did, as you will learn in a moment.

The test

I shot the rifle off a rest from 10 meters. Though reader Dom warned me that the Webley is an area-fire airgun and not a precision one, I thought it would probably be on paper at this distance. Fortunately for me and the garage wall, it was!

Artillery hold?

Yes, the Webley is a spring-piston rifle and yes, it does move around when it fires. So I thought the artillery hold would have to be employed. But the shape of the rifle does not lend itself to that hold very well. There is no forearm, so I ended up with the flat metal bottom of the receiver resting on the palm of my off hand. It felt very strange, and I found I did have to pull the rifle back into my shoulder a little, but in the end I would say I got about an 80 percent artillery hold. Well, I wasn’t expecting much, so let’s get going.

RWS Hobbys

The first pellet I tried was the RWS Hobby. It tested well in the velocity test and Hobbys are often very accurate, so I thought I’d give it a try. The first shot landed outside the bull at 4 o’clock, and when I had fired 5 shots I had a 0.674-inch group at 10 meters. No, it’s not a screamer, but it’s better than I expected!

Webley Mark II Service Hobby group 1
The Webley Mark II Service put 5 RWS Hobby pellets in 0.674-inches at 10 meters.

Shooting left-handed

I had to shoot left-handed because I couldn’t see the front sight with my right eye. But with the left eye everything was very clear. I have to say once more that trigger breaks so cleanly that it’s a real treat to use!

Eley Wasps

Next I tried some Eley Wasp pellets. These shoot very good in this rifle. It was made with something like them in mind. But the group I got was not so good. Five Wasps went into 1.458-inches at 10 meters. Maybe I could do better with the peep sight, because this isn’t very promising.

Webley Mark II Service Wasp group
Five Eley Wasps went into in 1.458-inches at 10 meters.

The peep sight

Now it was time to try shooting with the flip-up peep sight. I shot once from 10 meters and the pellet didn’t hit the paper. The sight was all the way at the top of its standard, so I moved up to 12 feet and tried a shot. The sight was way too high! Fortunately, this sight is easy to adjust, though it doesn’t have detents. The sight moves in all directions on plain threads, so I had to watch where it went and judge accordingly.

When I was about on target I looked through the peephole and discovered the sporting sight was now in the way. Of course it was! Both sights were adjusted to hit in the same place! Duh!

After chasing the pellets around the target awhile, I decided to forgo the peep sight for this test. If I want to use it, the sporting sight needs to come off the rifle.

One last group of Hobbys

I thought I would end this session with a last group of Hobbys. This time 5 pellets went into 1.001-inches at 10 meters. I do think it will get better when I shoot it with the peep sight, but according to Dom, the Mark II Service was never a tackdriver. On the other hand, three of the five pellets did manage to group in 0.27-inches. What if they would all do that?

Webley Mark II Service Hobby group 2
Five Eley Wasps went into in 1.001-inches at 10 meters. Three of them are in 0.27-inches.

Where to from here?

I still want to fix the breech seal permanently, plus I want to look inside the action and possibly give it a lube tune. The rifle shoots harshly for the available power, and I’d like to smooth it out a bit. We will be seeing this rifle again sometime.

77 thoughts on “Webley Mark II Service: Part 5

  1. BB,

    I for one certainly do hope we see more of this old gal. I for one think that should you calm her firing cycle down a bit and spend a little time with her, you will see some pretty tight groups. She certainly has been trying. You are also shooting offhand, which can be quite difficult.

    You get tired of fooling with her just let me know. I would be quite happy to get to know that old girl, although my BSA might get a little jealous.


  2. BB
    I think I mentioned this in the past. About a guy I know that has shot since he was a kid. He grew up shooting and hunting and plinking as a kid. And I should say we never called it plinking as kids. We was just hav’n fun shoot’n. Hunting or whatever kind of shoot’n we was do’n.

    But he was in a car crash in the mid part of his life. No more right hand shooting anymore. His right eye wasn’t going to do what he was use to anymore. He was pretty upset about it all. And was a very good shooter at that. Long guns or pistols. He was at the point that he was going to stop shooting.

    But he couldn’t. He loved it. It’s what he did and what he taught his kids. He started shooting left handed. He had some problems I remember. One was he did shoot with both eyes open. When he started shooting left handed both eyes open his right eye at first was still dominant. He seen two targets he use to tell me. And aimed at the wrong one at first. He use to have to blink his eye to bring the true target into his line of sight.

    All I know is now he’s a excellent shot. Better than he was. I think that he took stuff that he already knew from all the different shooting he done through the years and applied it to his new way of shooting or seeing I should say. He knew what he needed to do to adapt from prior experience.

    All I can say is I tryed. Heck I’m finally getting my eyes to use open sights again. I can’t believe how lazy I got using scopes and a bench rest. But my brain just doesn’t want to accept my left eye as my target eye. I don’t even know if I want to try to be a switch shooter. You know like a switch hitter in baseball that can hit the ball with either hand. I hope I don’t have to go down that path.

    BB I guess it’s good that your surgery worked and you can see out of that eye that had the surgery. And that’s great you can adapt and use your other eye. To me that’s a hard thing to do. Plus holding the gun the opposite way. I think I could adapt shooting pistol with my other eye. But to hold a rifle the other way is just not at all comfortable to me. I’m glad you can do it. And I do hope it’s still enjoyable to you to shoot. And I have to mention I shoot with my glasses I wear everyday. Did you ever get different glasses and if so have you tryed shooting with them on? And I hope I didn’t say what’s on my mind out of place. But just wanted to give credit where credit is due. When a person can shoot. Well they can shoot. Right BB.


  3. B.B.,

    I said to myself,… “peeps?,… what peeps. B.B. did not show us any peeps.” Well, yes you did,… in Part 1. By the way, I do not know if it is true, or my imagination,… but the quality of your pictures has seemed to have gone up.

    I have a question that I am not sure how to pose. I will try my best. Your last group with that 3 of 5 @ .270″ made me think of it,.. in a (general) sort of way.

    Q,….(When you have something like that happens, what do YOU attribute that to?) The “million dollar” question perhaps?

    Before you answer, let me explain a little more. As (all) of us know,.. this can happen at any yardage. 10, 25, 50, 100,…. even 5. I have been doing 70 quite a bit with the .25 M-rod. That is a good distance that pushes it’s limits as well as mine, but still keeps things in a comfortable range.

    I can average 1 – 1 1/2″ groups at that range, some worse, maybe 2″. But,… I have had 5, 6 or even 7 land in .375. Not on one occasion, but multiple times. Same with the 100, but closer to .750″.

    Yes, the further out you get, the more unpredictable things become. Yet, it begs the question,…. is it me? my hold? my trigger technique? Etc., etc., etc.,… to infinity. Why can I not do that all of the time?

    Perhaps the biggest thing to consider,… and maybe more accurate,…. it is just plain LUCK. Maybe, it is just the plain and simple fact as to how the pellets flew and just happened to be where they landed. So yea,… I would be interested hear your thoughts on what would appear to be sporadic anomalies.

    Thanks, Chris


    • Chris,

      You just asked the million-dollar question — the question that has plagued mankind since the first firearm was invented. Dr. F. W. Mann spent 37 years of his life trying to answer this question and he used every resource that was available to him, then he wrote a book about his findings.

      Chris — you have just suggested Monday’s blog topic.

      Thanks,

      B.B.



      • B.B. and Chris,

        My observation on that phenomenon is a bit more psychological. I have often heard that despite golf’s being a frustrating experience, many a duffer keeps coming back, again and again, and do indeed enjoy the challenge playing. Why? Because of that one beautiful, flawless shot during the last round. The promise that it holds out, be it illusory or genuine, compels us to continue the pursuit. “If I could just have a round with four or five shots like that . . . .”

        Michael


        • Michael,

          I had to give your comment a lot of thought. You are right,…. that IS what keeps us going back out there time after time. Some are more competitive than others,… I am not one. Shooting is often a solitary sport. I do however like to see myself improve. I am very open to trying new things and do often. I strive for perfection in repeating my hold, etc. on every shot. When I find something that SEEMS to work,…. I would like to think that it will CONTINUE to work. So I guess that is the frustration that I was trying to express. With shooting 8 or 10 shots in a row,… it is a little easier to repeat things and “know” when things are the same from shot to shot and when the results “should” have been the same.

          I have never played golf. From the sounds of it, it appears to have a common theme. Thanks for the additional insight.

          Chris


        • Michael

          Funny you should say that. That is the exact reason I golf. And I’m not even good enough to be considered a duffer.
          🙂 My best round is an 84 and I’m dang proud of myself. 🙂



      • B.B.,

        I am reminded of Forest,… Forest Gump,.. when he stated that he was told that he had a “million dollar wound”,… but,… that he had not seen a penny of it yet.

        Let me guess,…. “the check is in the mail”.

        😉 Chris



      • Twotalon,

        Not really. What is frustrating is when I am having a very good day, all is right and into a nice little “zone” so to speak,.. and you KNOW that the last shot was every bit as good as the last 4 or 5,…. the same 4 or 5 that went into 3/8″ at 70 yards. Then,….. BOOM,…… that last shot lands 2″ away from the “ultimate” group.

        Now that Sir,….. IS frustrating!!!!!




          • GF1,

            I am pretty sure that will (not) be one of the things that B.B. will be offering up Monday. 😉

            Shopped today, so the next 2 are good to go,… weather permitting. Horrid hot and humid at the moment. “Oppressive” I believe is how the weather man put it.


            • Chris USA
              It’s been ridiculous at work this week. It was a 117° in the shop yesterday. Fans were doing nothing but blowing hot air. Suppose to be just as hot today.

              Got all my grass cutting done so I can be open to shoot this weekend. Temperature is suppose to be down to the high 80’s but rain. So don’t know how much outside shooting I’ll get to do this weekend. But you know I’ll be shooting from the breezeway if it does rain.

              And you know since we’re on the subject of those dreaded flyers. Have you got your pistol out and did some standing unsupported shooting at some cans placed at different spots in the yard. Or look into a cheap semi-auto type stifle like the pellet shooting 1077 which are actually very accurate guns. Or possibly the Daisy 74 semi-auto type bb rifle.
              https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Crosman_1077_air_rifle/204

              https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Daisy_74_CO2_BB_Gun/3380

              You know when you do that type of shooting you don’t worry so much about flyers or groups. It’s about hitting that can repeatedly and keeping it moving for multiple shots. That’s what my shooting days consisted of as a kid. But we was shooting .22 caliber rimfire semi-auto rifles. And usually open sights. But I will have to say that my 1077 with the Bugbuster scope on it is working out real good shooting both eyes open doing that kind of shooting from 15 to about 50 yards. You should really try it if you get a chance. Its a nice change of pace rather than just trying to get the ultimate group all the time. And if you let it get to you it can be frustrating as you mentioned. I like it more than target shooting groups to tell you the truth. But also I have to say picking things out in the field and shooing long distance shots at 80 yards and out is also fun when you get your hold over and windage sorted out. The longer the shot the better. And not trying to shoot groups. Just trying to hit the different objects out at those distances. Like you I already know how my gun groups and I know the flyers do happen. So I throw that out of my mind. I just shoot to make the hit. And when it happens on the first shot out at those distances I’m more than happy.

              Anyway off to work. Ready for this day to be over so I can get out tomorrow and do what I just talked about. 🙂


              • GF1,

                No on the pistol. Some of that Crosman Custom Shop stuff looks interesting and affordable. I shall refrain from too much drooling and wishing for now,… with the exception of pellets. Just ordered some 33.95’s and 25.39’s,.. 2 cans each. That will give me 5 cans each which will hopefully take me into Winter. At 96 per session and the ease of the M-rod mags.,….. they can go down REAL quick. I am slowing that down a bit though.


                • Chris USA
                  The custom shop guns don’t allow you to pull the trigger as fast as you can one shot after the next without having to load that pellet.

                  I’m talking about going out and shooting a can with your pistol at a can on the ground. Then aim for the end of the can so it goes spinning away when you hit it. Then while it’s still moving get on it again with another shot at the end of the can. Basically keep the can moving till you run out of the 10 or so shots in the clip. Can dancing is what I’m talking about. 🙂


                  • GF1

                    I had the Ol vigilante (crosman) out last weekend. I had some friends over and my sister and my wife. Before we got any other adult fun under our belts I drug out like 7 AGs and pellets and every body went to town. I Gave my sis a few pointers and she was blasting cans at 15 yds rested with the vigilante. I think I need some red dot sights for the guns I just shoot cans with tho. It makes them “more useable” with “less aiming stress”. I set up 20+ cans all along the extended driveway. Even a few 30 yarders for me off hand. 😉 I have one buddy who seems like a natural. He just doesn’t have enough interest like us to go day in and day out. 🙂

                    I even caught the wife “sandbagging” so as to not “offend” her brother. Whom she was wiping the floor with. 😉

                    So I’ve got the action bug… probably going to have to stick with the vigilante for awhile… then sooner or later the 1077.

                    But I gotta tell yeah. The nice thing about these action pistols is they are priced well for xmas. A little more reasonable than the r9 or tx200 I really want. 😉 😉 and those are the cheapies! 🙂


                    • PH
                      Now that’s what I’m talking about. Sounds like fun times to me.

                      And the Tasco red dot that I have on my Tx right now has been around the block if you know what I mean. Had it on my Winchester 190, my 1720T, 2240, 1377 long gun conversions, my Discovery’s and springers and so on.

                      I love open sight shooting and my eyes don’t work like they use to. But a red dot on a gun is nice. But you got to take some time and get them sighted in good. After that watch out. It’s game on then. 🙂


                  • Gunfun

                    I did some of that type of can plinking today with an antique Gamo Gamatic multi shot. Lots of fun and of course as the can moves further away it is more difficult to hit.


                  • 6 pm

                    I did some of that type of can plinking today with an antique Gamo Gamatic multi shot. Lots of fun and of course as the can moves further away it is more difficult to hit.


  4. B.B., Off subject, is the Diana 340 N-TEC Classic made in Germany? Just wondering as it was a gun I was keeping my eyes on since it tested well for you. But after reading the reviews of some customers, some say it started out well, but QC problems have came up after shooting a while. Thank You
    Doc



  5. B.B.,

    I just ran a “health check” on the M-rod with the chrony. What I found,… may, or may not,.. play into Monday’s article.

    10 shots went as follows: 870, 870, 885, 870, 868, 871, 877, 870, 861 and 871

    I went back and found 2 strings that I had shot with the same pellet when the gun was new. I will put these (after) today’s readings,……

    Spread (23.26), {40.19}, [29.44]
    Deviation (6.16), {13.67}, [10.29]

    So,…. from those figures, things have improved. However, if you look at today’s chrony readings,… you will see some “jump ups” in fps. (870 to 885) and (861 to 871) being the most notable. (Prior readings) showed a steady decline overall.

    While not the best, it isn’t half bad either. Just thought I would mention it and” put it out there” for comment and thought.

    Chris


    • Chris USA
      Sounds like your o-ring anti-bounce mod ain’t as consistent as you thought.

      The higher velocity shots you got I bet are from the striker hitting the valve a little harder on those shots.

      Maybe mods can hurt a guns performance when you (think) it helped. Maybe the steady decline is better. The steady decline would show a group staying together but as the shots go they would poi a little lower which could open you group up. But you shouldn’t have a flyer out in outer space that way.

      The higher velocity spikes would show more than likely as a flyer shooting high.

      My Mrods velocity is high the first 3-4 shots and almost the same readings. Then I get like 12 shots a little lower in velocity that are all pretty close together on spread then I get about 4 more shots that are a little slower and all pretty close together on spread. I’m talking velocity. Not my groups I’m shooting.

      My Mrod never gets a velocity spike higher any time at all. Sounds like your gun isn’t tuned right yet from what your saying. Sorry but that’s what I’m seeing.


      • GF1,

        Well,…. that is why I was “throwing it out there”. You thought that the striker was not hitting fully each time. I turned it in 1/2,… to 2 1/2 in. After 24 shots, no POI change. So,….. I upped it to 3 in. Still no POI change after 24 shots. It is at 3 now. At some point, those O-rings will not be doing a thing.

        3 1/2 in?

        As for spread,… you are the one that said do not pay attention to the chrony,…. get out and shoot the dern thing. That will tell you when the POI starts falling off. Or,… if it starts low,… and goes high,… you got a bit of valve lock going on.


        • Chris USA
          I believe your thinking wrong about how your o-ring mod works.

          The o-rings are in front of the valve body. The o-rings should be out even with the front of the valve stem or even out past it maybe 2 mm.

          Then your hammer outer diameter will go forward when fired and stop on the o-rings. The striker sticks out the front of the hammer.

          If you adjust the striker out farther towards the muzzle of the gun it should hit the valve stem open farther. Velocity should go up. If you back the striker screw up towards the butt of the gun velocity should go down.

          I believe the striker adjustment works the opposite with the o-ring mod compared to setting the striker with out the o-ring mod. Make you a little model of your gun with a pencil sticking out of a bushing to represent the striker screw and hammer. Then draw o-rings on a peice of paper with a line in the center of the valve to represent the valve stem flush with the o-rings or one o-ring past the valve stem. Now take your bushing and slide it forward and stop it at the front of the o-rings. Move you pencil in towards the stem or away from the stem. That will show you what the hammer and striker does with the o-ring mod.

          Think about it before you answer.


          • GF1,

            We are on the “same page”. When I said adjust the striker “in” to 3 turns,….. that means that it is 3 turns in (from being full back, or counter clockwise, or bottomed out in the hammer).

            A quick check of my notes indicated that I had the striker turned in 4 turns when I did the O-ring tune. If you remember, just recently I was trying to hold it at 2 turns. (remember the Loctite?)

            So,….. at some point from when I did the O-rings (to now), I had gone from 4 turns to 2 turns.

            I need to go back and dig a little deeper to see why I had gone from 4 to 2. As for how far can you go with the striker,…. at some point I think that if the striker is screwed forward far enough,.. that it would strike the valve stem and the striker head would bottom out on the back of the valve by hitting the valve body.


            • Chris USA
              I don’t think that the striker and hammer can have enough force to open the valve all the way and bottom it out as you say. Remember that’s 3000+ psi on the other side off the valve head. On the high psi tunes that valve probably just verily bumps open. On the lower psi tuned guns is where it is easier to knock the valve open. And the lower psi tune would be more susceptible to valve bounce. The striker spring would make the hammer bounce forward again and would be able to open the valve again easier.

              If your filling above 3000 psi like I am (3500 psi to be exact for my gun) and shooting down to about 2700 psi. I think valve bounce doesn’t start happening till that lower psi comes into play.

              I would tune your gun for max power like I got mine and settle for a gradual fall in velocity as you shoot. Remember I said I can get about 25 or so shots per fill but I really only have about 17 that hold poi dead on. My first shots are just a little high. Maybe a little more than a 1/8″. Then I have my 17 shots that poi pretty dead on. Then my last shots fall a little more than a 1/8″ lower than my main group. So you see I use up a little over a 1/4″ of my group with poi change because of psi drop. And my poi does match my chrony readings when I get on paper.

              And I have to bring this up about me saying I don’t care how much velocity spread my gun chrony’s at. Just go out and shoot and get it on paper and see what happens.

              Well I think you may of over looked the key words. “Just go out and shoot and get it on paper and (see what happens).” That’s when the truth is told. I believe by the way I have my gun set up with the gradual drop in velocity as the shots go on is why my gun don’t have the flyer exist as often. And my flyers can happen any where within the whole 360° around the main group. They don’t happen all high or all low or all right and so on. So I believe my flyers are from pellet variation.

              But if I would have a flyer that always happens higher above the group or lower than the group I would say that it is because of a velocity variation.

              So you need to see on paper if your flyers kind of match up with your velocity spikes from your chrony readings. See if yoour shots do poi high when you have the flyers. Or like my gun see if the flyers can happen anywhere around the main group. Got to know how to read those targets you know. 🙂


              • GF1,

                Well, I decided to play with striker adjustment pretty heavy today. I ran it in 5 turns, then 4, then 3 1/2 and the finally 2 1/2. 96 shots or 12 eight shot groups.

                With the striker in 5, the POI fell by about 3″ from what I had been getting. Also, in the course of striker adjustment, I found that it was still moving. 3 turns from full back had turned into 2 1/2 turns from full back, after just 24 shots. While the Loctite held,.. after moved,… it seemed to still want to move.

                I also played with fill pressures. With the striker screwed in further, I was getting partial valve lock. The first group would be lower and the next groups higher. The gun also got louder.

                In the end, (I removed the O-ring tune), Blue Loctited the striker and hammer adjustments. The striker is now 1 in from full back and the hammer is in 6,… which is where it was at.

                I will hit it again tomorrow, weather permitting. By the way, no chrony testing. All adjustments and verifications were done (outside) with (actual) shooting. 😉


                • Chris USA
                  I think your headed in the right direction by removing the o-ring mod.

                  I tryed it in my .25 Mrod again sometime back after I started shooting the JSB 33.95’s. I tryed adjusting multiple ways and messed with air pressure fills also. I never could get the gun to group consistently. So they came out.

                  I have my striker set all the way back and bottomed out hard. It’s not going to come loose. The hammer can move the whole distance plus some. I faced off some of the front of the striker so it’s actually inside the hammer. So I’m getting almost 2 mm more of stroke before it hits the valve. And I got the 14 lb spring in it still. It’s adjust like we said before where it is screwed in at max pressure till it comes of the thread and clicks. Then I have it backed off about a turn so it’s not floating out of the threads.

                  That’s the way mine has been set right before we did our hundred yard competition and still that way today.

                  And thats why I don’t have any faith yet in those debounce mods of sorts. Someone is going to have to do some thorough testing to convince me they will do as they say and still group good. With the still grouping good emphasized.

                  But let me know how it goes when you shoot it. I really think you are on the right track. And yes I’m glad your doing the tuning by shooting at targets. Once you have what you want from the gun. Then chrony it to document what you have. Then you can have the chrony results to check back with like you did. The target is what counts though. It will tell you what the gun is doing.

                  Oh and you mentioned above partial valve lock. Did you mean my gun? If so no. Remember my first shots read higher velocity numbers and poi a little higher. Then I have those little bit lower string of 17 shots then the last shots a little lower in velocity and poi.

                  If I had partial valve lock from filling to high for my tune. The first shots would be a lower velocity and poi. Then the shots after that would come up in velocity and poi. Then gradually fall off. So after the first shots were low and then they came up. That’s when I would look at the guns pressure gauge and that would give me my new start fill psi. Then I wouldn’t have partial valve lock if I did that. But no again. The way my gun is tuned now. No partial valve lock.


                  • GF1,

                    The partial valve lock was on my end. I just hope it still shoots 3 mags. (24) without a (group) POI change. If I can get it to do that, I will give it a chrony and hopefully see a steady fall and tight spread. I could do 24+ without a POI drop before. Maybe 30. On 24 I could keep a 1 1/4″ group, at 70, on 3 targets,.. all at the same level.

                    Of course, if we are talking 1/8″ and 1/4″ differences in POI at 70 yards,….. count me out.


                    • Chris USA
                      Three mags is 24 shots. Why is it important to get more shots?

                      If you were hand pumping I could see where that could be a issue to get as many shots per fill as possible. But you got the Shoebox and buddy bottle. No effort there. 😉

                      But seriously why more than 24 usable shots per fill. Especially if your making 24 high energy accurate shots.

                      If your looking for a long range multiple shot gun out of the Marauder it probably ain’t going to happen. A fair amount of shots yes. Heck most of the longer range air gun shooters teather there guns to bottles that regulate psi out put to their gun so the gun receives the same exact psi resivoir pressure on every shot. They determine that best psi by testing.

                      So if you get 24 high energy shots out of your Marauder that work out at a hundred yards I would be happy.

                      Remember you can always shoot the gun in at closer distances after you hit that 24th shot. You know say 50 yards and in. And I just threw the 50 yards out there. Maybe 65 yards and in you could still shoot your gun consistently after shot 24 and still be making good power at the closer distances.

                      All I can say is co2 guns are great training guns to learn poi and pressure on. They work just like I said the pcp guns work. But the distances ain’t as far out as pcp guns. You still have so many usable shots before you stop shooting are move in closer.



  6. Tom, I have loved this series! Of course my pulse gets up every time you “do” a vintage springer, but the Mk 2 Service is really something special. The combination of sheer quality and quirky design is really unique; it’s as if the thing was designed by a committee of crusty old machinists all trying to out-do one another, LOL.

    Back in part 2 you mentioned the somewhat larger head size of the old Eley Wasp pellets, and I might suggest that is a key point. Older English airguns in .22 are designed to the classic UK “No. 2 Bore” dimensions, which is a true 22/100 inch, or about 5.6 millimeters. Modern .22 pellets are almost univerally 5.5 millimeters.

    This can make a tremendous difference! I’ve gradually figured out over the years that shooting the Mk 2, and Webley’s later Mk 3 underlever too, with modern .22 ammo is pretty fruitless. They simply fit so loosely that shot-to-shot consistency, maximum velocity, and accuracy all suffer. (RWS pellets have dimensions that tend to run on the large-ish side by modern standards, though, which might explain why the Hobbys are working the best so far.)

    I have a hoarded some of the classic “blue tin” 5.6 mm Wasps and both guns are a true pleasure to shoot with those. Vintage Webley .22 pellets are similarly sized, of course, and I believe there are modern “No. 2 Bore” pellets being made now in the UK, though the name escapes me.


    • Mike,

      I have to say, this old gal stirs my blood whenever I see her and get to handle her, too. I think the next step will be to disassemble this powerplant and see if I can’t get it to shoot smoother.

      I wanted one of these for a great many years, so when I found this one at a good price on Gun Broker, I pounced. Now it’s time to learn what I have gotten myself into!

      I once owned a very nice Mark III that was also a fine vintage airgun. I didn’t spend the time with that one that I should have. Maybe one day I will find another like it to play with awhile.

      The Texas airgun show is approaching fast and I have plans to take a number of my old collectible airguns — just so folks can see what’s out there. If I sell them, fine, I’m always on the hunt for new/old airguns!

      Wish you could make it to the show.

      B.B.


    • MDriskill,
      Are those pellets the Defiant Vintage? Its fo absolete British 5.6 mm rifles. I bought a couple boxes the last time I was in the UK. They are made of lead by the way.


      • Ton, that’s it! Thanks much. I need to see if there is a reasonably-priced source for the Defiant Vintage.

        Looking these up on google, I think there is a new version of the classic “Milbro Caledonian” also being made to the vintage dimensions.


  7. BB,

    On the subject of removing the rear sight. From what I can see nothing can done except drift the entire sight off the dovetail and leave the base attached to the base which I think forms part of the barrel sleeve. Hope the accuracy improves to your satisfaction.


  8. BB–Siraniko—Regarding the open sight problem, I would try to fit a removable higher front sight. It could be tack glued with a glue that could be removed with low heat. It could be clamped on . If you raise the peep sight so that the open rear sight is not visible, you can shoot the rifle ( for groups only ) without any alterations . Ed


  9. B.B.,

    Every now and then I check out the Pyramyd air’s “New Products” web page and see something that gets me excited in the same way I would get when I was a boy discovering a new toy I might hope to receive for my birthday. The latest new offerings from Diana include what look like updated take on the old, bad-triggered Diana Model 240 Schutze (but this has the TO5 trigger, which is pretty decent, IMO) and a breech loader that resembles the Hakim Trainer in both .177 and .22.

    The Schutze should have been a fine successor to the venerable Model 25, but that terrible trigger ruined the whole rifle. This Model 240 Classic could be an all-day plinker’s delight.

    Man, these are exciting times to be an airgunner!

    Michael


  10. Hi Tom,
    Your pneumatic barrel length test report shows an opportunity to gain performance in pneumatics through longer barrels. https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/08/testing-the-effect-of-barrel-length-on-a-precharged-rifle/

    The old picture of a helical barrel shown on an FWB pistol suggests that barrels might be lengthened through well-executed bends, retaining accuracy and a reasonable form factor.
    not my picture: https://postimg.org/image/y1rzo0wud/

    Here are two basic concepts for further consideration and development, one stimulated by your ‘let’s build a multi-pump” challenge, and a second copying the FWB layout for performance boost in PCP. In each several questions will dawn upon you, and perhaps you or Dennis Quackenbush would find some interesting enough to investigate.

    First Concept:
    Multi-pump, trombone-bend barrel layout, on a 392 mule
    The design goal is better hunting performance at 8 pumps with reasonable cost increase.
    Reverse the breech. Bolt action, loading, and initial direction of pellet will be reversed.
    Route a trombone-bend barrel back toward shooter’s shoulder through lower butt stock, bending up through butt pad, then forward though cheek rest to mate to a barrel band above receiver about 1″ above breech (clearance for loading, low enough for sighting).

    The major feature is that the stock barrel of 21″ is replaced by a barrel of something like 50″. (Crude right angles estimation where length of pull is 12.5″ and butt pad is 4″ tall: 21 + 12.5 + 4 + 12.5 = 50)

    Questions begging research, and many others will strike you too!
    Does a longer straight barrel gain power with this powerplant? 50″ barrel on an 392?
    If yes, can a u-bend trombone barrel maintain performance gains of straight barrel?
    Can a trombone-bend barrel configuration be hunter grade accurate?
    How many bends are needed? Two seems the minimum for a breech inline with pump tube and reservoir (down X degrees, then up around the end 180+X degrees).
    Can a reverse breech trombone-bend barrel 392 be structurally sound? At modest cost increase?
    Sights, stock, pumping, and ergonomics are questions too.
    Can Crosman make a budget priced 50″ barrel? Maybe soda straw steel in molded trombone stock?
    Versatility? Will 3 to 4 pumps still work to plink?

    Second Concept:
    PCP with helical barrel configured around a reservoir, exactly like the FWB pistol. The design goal is higher performance with reasonable cost increase.

    For a helix twisting around a cylinder through 360 degrees, the length of barrel bore = square root of (helix section length squared + cylinder circumference squared), restated this becomes
    length of bore = square root of (helix length squared + (cylinder diameter times pi) squared)

    Imagine a Disco mule, normal spec barrel is 24.5″:
    Consider a 12″ section length, 360 degree single twist around a cylinder of 4″ diameter = 17.375″ bore length
    In other words, for one helical turn over 12″ of a 4″ diameter cylinder, the helical barrel gains 5.375″ over straight. New barrel length for Disco would be 24.5 + 5.375 = 29.875

    Calculations for a range of diameters for a 12″ section length:
    For 3″ diameter, helical layout gains 3.25″ for a 27.75″ total bore length
    For 4″ diameter, helical layout gains 5.375″ for a 29.875″ total bore length
    For 5″ diameter, helical layout gains 7.77″ for a 32.27″ total bore length
    For 6″ diameter, helical layout gains 10.345″ for a 34.345″ total bore length

    What would an 34+ inch long barrel do to a Disco, etc? Have fun!

    One huge assumption is that longer barrels, and bent barrels, are not technically difficult and could be manufactured at reasonable cost. This is an innocent assumption born from ignorance, sorry!

    What do you think?


    • Rillburgher,

      Welcome to the blog.

      While that sounds easy, most barrel makers cannot rifle barrels longer than 30 inches. Longer barrels are impossible for them. Not difficult — impossible. No airgun maker in the world can make a 50-inch barrel at this time. Given a quarter million dollars and a year’s time, they might do it, but why?

      If you wan t to experiment with this you’d better do it with a smoothbore.

      That’s what I think.

      B.B.



    • Rhillburgher,

      If you were to get 2 barrels,.. you could mill off the crown of one and the lead in on the other. Then, join them with those compression type fittings that are use for air pneumatics or hydraulics. As long as they touched at the joint and you had the rifling lined up, that would work.

      You could start straight and add bends later. At least that would be a fairly easy way to test your theory.

      Is this something that you are actually going play with? I cut the shroud off a Daisy 880. It had a 5/16″ O.D. barrel. I am assuming that you are talking about something in that size range?

      Since the pressure would constantly be dropping behind the pellet, at some point there will be a tipping point. The exception might be if you had a valve with an exceptionally long dwell time that would insure constant pressure all the way until the pellet left the barrel.

      Try it and let us know how it goes.


  11. Funny things,…

    A couple happened to me yesterday,… one shooting related,… one not.

    I decided to a bit of (quick) chrony work yesterday. My chrony has a home made “shield” over the front, bottom and rear. I inadvertently set it up facing backwards. Perfectly set up,… but backwards. This does not work people. 🙁 It took abut 5 shots of “error” before I realized it.

    The other thing,… I live about 12 miles from town. Drove in, did some running,… and on the way to the next errand,.. a 50 cent sized, green frog, hopped out of the windshield wiper cavity, hopped up the windshield and proceeded to plant himself right at my eye level. He found a “new home” at the next stop. The windshield wipers were tempting though. 😉



    • Chris USA
      I figured it was about how many shots the magazine held.

      Now you see another reason why I use the single shot trays. I shoot the gun in that area that gives me the best shots. If my gun would only get 19 shots then I would not use only two mags and stop shooting it. I use the single shot tray and shoot what I want. The .25 Marauder are good guns. But you can’t make them what their not. Well you know what I mean. You can mod the heck out of anything to get closer to the performance you want. But there’s a range of what is feasible to do for the results you want.

      Remember me say listen to your gun. It will tell you a story. You just got to learn to speak it’s language. More than you can imagine.


      • GF1,

        Today is a wash out. Rain, rain and more rain. (We needed it real bad though). Testing looks like Tuesday, as Monday has some things going on.

        I know you have your M-rod modded and set at “full out”,… but,…. if you were me,.. and found that the shot count for good POI was at say 20 shots,…. (what would you do to increase shot count)?

        Turn the metering screw in a bit?
        Turn the striker in a bit?

        Settings at the moment are: Hammer at 6 in, Striker at 1 in and Port Screw at 4 from bottomed.

        Any suggestions welcome,.. as to avoid wasting lead.


        • Chris USA
          Ok first I have to clarify this so you know what I mean.

          The striker is in the hammer. You use the 1/8″ Allen wrench to adjust it. If you turn it clockwise it will go in. Without the o-ring mod if you turn clockwise that will shorten the hammer movement the striker will be sticking farther out of the hammer. So less velocity. Remember from the factory it works different than with the o-ring mod.

          The hammer spring pressure is adjusted with the 1/4″ Allen wrench. If you turn it clockwise it will make more spring pressure and the hammer will go forward with more force. The striker will hit the valve stem harder.

          This is what I don’t understand what you mean.
          “Settings at the moment are: Hammer at 6 in, Striker at 1 in”

          Do you mean the 1/4″ Allen wrench that adjusts the hammer spring pressure is in clockwise 6 turns? And is the 1/8″ Allen wrench turned only 1 turn clockwise in? If that’s what you mean along with the transfer port flow adjusting screw backed out 4 from bottomed out you have your gun set for maximum power/velocity.

          What I do when I’m at that point is back the 1/4″ Allen wrench hammer spring pressure adjustment out counterclockwise a 1/2 turn at a time and fill the gun up and shoot and see if you get the 24 usable shots you want.

          Say you were getting 20 usable shots and you want 4 more good shots to be able to use your 3 full magazines. You will probably only need to back the 1/4″ Allen wrench out (counterclockwise) 1 full turn. And you will probably loose about 25 fps or so.

          So you will have to waste some lead possibly to get that 24 shots per fill figured out. But if you back the 1/4″ adjustment out 1 turn from where your at I think you will be pretty close to what your after and still be making good power. You will just have to see to get it dialed in exactly as you like.

          Oh and the 1/4″ and 1/8″ adjustment on my .25 Mrod are set exactly as your gun is now. The 6 turns and 1 turn on the adjustments. But my transfer port flow adjustment only has the one short lock down set screws loctited out flush at the valve body outer diameter. I don’t have the inner setscrew with the ball on the end in my gun anymore.

          If I want lower velocity for some reason. Say I’m shooting in the basement. I back the spring pressure off. The 1/4″ Allen wrench counterclockwise 3 or 4 full turns from my 6 turns in. Then if I go outside to shoot I just turn back in to my 6 turns in setting. I never touch the other adjustments anymore other than seeing if they stayed set.

          So that should do it I believe. To bad you can’t back the 1/4″ spring pressure out the 1 turn and try one full fill today. It’s been raining all night and all morning here too. It’s just now stopping. Got to run out real quick and put me some new cans on my home made can spinners I made before it starts again. 🙂

          Let me know if you try today.


          • GF1,

            (Yes),… we are on the same page on adjustments. Small break in rain with scattered still all around and heavy coming back in soon. It ain’t going to happen today. 🙁

            Thanks for the good advice,….. Chris


            • Chris USA
              No problem on the advice. But darn. Wish you could try today.

              Heck fill your gun up inside along with your 3 magazines. And didn’t you make you a shooting stick? You can take you a 5 gallon bucket and turn it upside down. That would be a fast little setup. If it started raining you could at least get you and the gun back inside real quick.

              You know you want to try it out today don’t you. 😉 😉


  12. I did some of that type of can plinking today with an antique Gamo Gamatic multi shot. Lots of fun and of course as the can moves further away it is more difficult to hit.


    • Ton
      But ain’t it fun.

      We did our little hunting excursions as we called them as kids. But the real fun was who could hit the can first.

      We would climb trees just to put a can up there to shoot at. It actually kept us on the edge when we took our turns to shoot. We would be thinking to ourselfs don’t let him hit, don’t let him hit. We finally started flipping coins to shoot first. We even drew straws. Threw marbles and bounced the coins off a wall. Yep it got pretty intense at times. I loved it when I was the last shot and nobody hit yet. Talk about a intense shot. Everybody was watching that one. And I’m talking when we had our air guns. We had those first before we got our rimfire guns and shot guns. Well some of us still shot air guns when we got our powder burners. Wonder who that was. 😉

      Them were good times is all I can say. Thank God I lived as a kid when I did. Very many smiley faces right now. 🙂


  13. Hi BB et al.
    Well, the carpal tunnel is sort of under control, wrist braces and medication at night and a wonderful electric massager from a Florida company called CarpalRX and I can manage quite well now as long as I don’t overdo it. Cocking springers is still out of the question though.
    Last week I did a refinish on my Mosin Nagant 91/30 stock. Scraped off the old finish with a razor blade window scraper. Then I applied 5 coats Watco Dark Walnut Oil and 3 coats Minwax Tung Oil rubbing in each coat of oil with a finer grit wet paper until I reached 1200 grit on the last coat. After a complete drying for a couple of days 2 coats of Minwax Paste Wax (lightly rubbed in with 1200 grit wet paper) really made the furniture pop.
    That old 91\30 has never looked as good as it does now!
    Using the different oils is a trick I learned a long time ago. The Dark Walnut Watco Oil soaks into the wood and seals exceptionally well while the Tung oil is more of a surface type of oil and gives an excellent sheen. As well the Tung Oil tends to soften the blacks in the Dark Walnut Watco Oil. The end result being a beautiful ruddy toned gunstock brown. I don’t know how it does this. I use white rags to rub out the Tung Oil and I have never seen any of the black component in the Dark Walnut Watco Oil come out of the wood and stain the rags.
    No matter though as it’s the end result that counts!
    Cheers
    Dave


  14. Well I got some interesting info about co2 12 gram cartridge’s that the whole world already knows about but me. It made a difference in the performance in these two guns anyway. Wouldn’t work with the 1077.
    https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Colt_Python_357_CO2_Pellet_BB_Revolver/4060

    https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/ISSC_M_22_CO2_Air_Pistol/3773

    It’s not at all dangerous to do even. And it helps tremendously and it’s very simple to do.

    But I think I will wait and tell about it tomorrow. It will fit in with tomorrow’s blog about the million dollar question that Chris USA inspired.

    I’m sure tomorrow’s blog could bring some interesting thoughts to the table if people will reply. Well until tomorrow. 🙂


    • Gunfun1,

      What sort of info? I don’t know much about using 12 gram cartridges as that I was raised on bulk filled CO2 guns. I have only handled them in a store if I recall correctly. Over here there are brass adapters used that are refilled by 10 oz tanks yielding only a few shots before needing to be refilled again.


      • Siraniko
        What I’m going to say tomorrow makes a world of difference in performance. It’s so simple it’s crazy.

        You know that the 12 gram cartridge’s are small. Temperature plays a big effect on performance because of less volume of co2. Bulk fill to a big resivoir has more room for performance before the resivoir cools down to where performance starts dropping off. Everybody already knows that the quicker a shot is taken before the co2 has time to warm back up slows down the shot velocity.

        So what I’m doing will keep the co2 pressure up to make a 10 or even 18 shot repeated rapid fire up in velocity to keep the shots for that given magazine or clip consistent in velocity and groups on paper. The cartridge has not cooled off like it normally does.

        It’s crazy how easy it is to do.



  15. BB
    I don’t know if this blog software allows you to send a personal message. If so send me an email and I will send you a photo of the refinished stock. If not and you have an email that you don’t mind going too public blog it and I will send the photo.
    Cheers
    Dave



    • Siraniko
      I took some pictures and it’s like it’s out over where I shoot at a hundred yards. It’s like it was so close you could touch it. All the colors of the prism where very vibrant. The second rainbow had colors missing. I’ll see if I can get a picture to post. May have to do a video picture.


  16. BB
    Just thought of something.

    Why can’t a place be added on to the heading of the days blog that would allow readers to post pictures. Like after the part 1 and so on link to the other reports.

    Kind of like how Pyramyd Air has a place to post personal photos of a product on a page that your viewing about a product.

    If it was possible we could post pictures without going through photobucket and such. Would be a much easier process plus would be more instantly I believe.


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