The FP-45 Liberator pistol

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Liberator
The Liberator pistol was a strange chapter of World War II.

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • The idea
  • Not well made
  • Actual use
  • How it works
  • Valuable
  • Buy one today
  • Why?

I have to punt today. A rifle I was trying to scope gave me fits for hours and I lost the window of opportunity for the test, the photos and the writeup. So I’m writing about a firearm that I have actually owned that many people don’t know about — the FP-45 Liberator pistol from World War II. The official title was “Flare Projector 45,” to disguise the real purpose of the gun. Bascially this is a zip gun for military use.

The Liberator is a single-shot pistol chambered in .45 ACP — the same cartridge that’s used in the M1911A1 pistol carried by many American forces during the war. It is a smoothbore, which raises a lot of questions that I will address in a moment. American troops were not issued this gun. A million of them were produced in 6 months, which tells you a lot about the lack of precision in the design.

The idea

The concept was to make a gun cheaply enough that it could be supplied to resistance fighters in countries occupied by (mostly) German  and Japanese forces. Hitler’s Blitzkreig (lightning war) was so effective that most of Europe was under German control within months. There was very little the Allies could do about it, plus the people of England were fighting for their lives to keep the Germans from invading their island.

The hope was that if the Allies could supply this gun to the European resistance fighters, they could use it to get a better gun from a soldier. The Liberator was a “last chance” weapon. It was good out to 12-15 feet (the official distance was supposed to be 25 feet) but beyond that you were risking your life. Reloading for a second shot took the better part of half a minute. It took longer to reload the gun than it took to make it! The theory was you shot a soldier at close range and took his weapon and ammo.

Not well made

Liberators were not well made. They were just barely able to perform their mission . If you fire one repeatedly the barrel will come off the gun in less than 20 shots and the cocking piece will shatter. There is one for sale on Gun Broker rifle now that has a broken cocking knob. Someone fired it to see what it was like and they ruined it.

I doubt very seriously if this pistol was ever proof-tested. These were viewed as last-ditch weapons, and they weren’t going to be in American hands, so the same care that would be afforded to an arsenal-built firearm was not required.

Many armies made “last-ditch” weapons for their own people. But they were made when the tide of the war had turned against the country and they really were last ditch weapons. The Liberator was made in 1942, just after the U.S. entered the war. Since this gun wasn’t destined for American hands, the government didn’t overly concern itself with the user’s safety. It was made safe enough — just not rigorously inspected. It was a “dirty trick” gun, destined to wear down the enemy through constant surveilance.

The gun was made mostly from sheet steel stampings, with a cast zinc cocking knob. That’s right, a potmetal cocking knob that also contains the firing pin! The barrel was spot-welded to the frame. The grip was hollow and 10 cartridges could be stored inside because a sheetmetal floorplate slid out for access. The delivered cost of a gun in the box with everything was $2.10. The gun by itself sold for $1.73.

Actual use

The Army saw little value in air-dropping the gun to French resistance fighters. Only about 25,000 were dropped. The OSS (the men who stare at goats) were responsible for distributing 450,000 pistols, mostly in Asia. I’m sure their stories are as crazy as they were! Of course, being the OSS (CIA today), everything is classified. Makes hiding all the embarrassments easier. I don’t believe there is a single recorded instance of the pistol being used for its intended purpose.

How it works

To load and cock the pistol pull back on the zinc cocking knob and rotate it to either side. The breech is closed by a sheet steel plate that is manually pulled up out of the way when the cocking knob is pulled back and rotated. The firing pin is permanently attached to the cocking knob. Drop a .45 ACP cartridge into the chamber and push the breech plate closed, then rotate the cocking knob to align with the breech again.

breech open
The cocking piece is pulled back and rotated to either side. Then the breech plate can be raised. The pin on top of the cocking piece is not the firing pin. It’s a guide pin that passes through the upper hole to keep the firing pin aligned with the lower hole in the breech plate.

The gun is now loaded and cocked. Simply pull the trigger to fire, and it’s not that hard! Recoil is a little stiff, and then it’s time to reload. Rotate the cocking knob out of the way and lift the breech plate. Use a wooden dowel or stick to push the fired cartridge out of the gun and then reload if you want to.

There are crude sights front and rear, but without rifling there is not much hope of hitting anything by using them. The ideal way to use this gun is to press the muzzle against the target and fire. As the distance from gun to target increases the hit probability drops.

Valuable

A Liberator that’s still in the original paraffin-coated box with the original wooden dowel for extraction, 10 original  brass-cased ’42 Frankford Arsenal rounds of ammo and the original paper graphic that explained the pistol’s use is worth whatever someone will pay for it today. Five to six thousand dollars isn’t too much to ask. It is estimated that fewer than 300 original boxes remain, which makes the box worth as much as the gun. A few unopened boxes do exist, and they change hands at even higher prices, when accompanied by an X-ray, to prove everything is in the box. An unfired gun by itself is a $2,500 item. The busted one on Gun Broker I just mentioned is listed for $1,250 with no takers.

Buy one today

To fill the hole in World War II collections, the Liberator is being reproduced today. The obscure single shot pistol that few have heard of is suddenly a popular gun and a reproduction is available for sale. For $680 you get everything in the box. They built these repro guns using the original drawings, but they used better steel and metallurgy and you can shoot these a few times safely.

Why?

I ran this story because we always talk about how airgun quality is not up to firearms standards. But, sometimes, it is even ahead of it, as we see today!

129 thoughts on “The FP-45 Liberator pistol

  1. B.B.,

    I would think the Liberator Pistol would hurt to shoot. It looks kind of Mad Max ish.

    Speaking of flare guns I have one. I have no idea if it was my Dad’s or someone gave it to me. I also have no idea what country it came from.

    The markings are:

    CESKA ZBROJOVKA AKO.SPOL.V PRAZE

    Vz.30

    It is well made. I don’t have any idea what the flares looked like. The bore is a little over one inch. Maybe someone knows more about it and can comment.

    Don



    • Don,

      Very nice. Quite the impressive piece to look at. The breech end looks to have a bit of camming action? (the two disc that appear to have a mating taper)



        • Don,

          Thank you for the additional info. That is quite impressive and yours appears to be in very good condition. As if a close up flare shot would not be bad enough, with that size barrel,.. all kinds of nasty stuff could be packed in there (the shell). A short range scatter gun in other words. It would be interesting to know if anything other than flare shells were ever made for it,…. or (any) other flare gun for that matter.


          • Chris U,

            I am glad I posted the picture of the flare gun. It has been laying around as long as i can remember. I never thought it was worth anything. When I was a kid I found it was sized nominally the same as a 4 guage shotgun. I am glad I was not stupid enough to try it. I never gave it a good look. It is very well made and can be taken down including unscrewing the barrel without tools. Only the handle grips are held on with a screw.

            It is nominally a 4 bore, 4 round balls can be cast from a pound of lead that fit the bore. It shoots 26.5 mm flares.

            It now has a good coat of Balistol and will live in the gun safe.

            Don



      • Mike,

        Thanks, those are the flares for the gun. Looks like they come in various types and colors of flare. I have a friend that is into pyrotechnics. She may like to give some a try. I don’t think the gun has been shot but it does have a ring of small pits about where the cartridge would end so maybe it has been fired.

        Don


        • Don,

          You are welcome, with an old gun like that having some vintage shells might make for an even better sale price if you ever decided to sell it.

          As for shooting it I don’t think I would, at least not from my hand till I could proof fire it remotely.

          Mike


          • Mike,

            Yep, on having vintage shells if I was going to sell. I might need to think about that.

            Unless the powder turned to nitro, this gun would hold up. It is very well made. I would not be afraid to shoot it with the proper cartridges.


  2. The first time around I did not pick up on the value of the Liberator Pistol, especially the reproduction. Even with some upgraded materials that is a heck of a price for a reproduction.


  3. G’day BB
    Reminds me of those lads shooting a .22 air gun pellet out of a 22 bolt action with a Ramset charge getting around 2800 fps. Appears quite deadly at short range.
    Cheers Bob


    • Bob,

      I saw that video. What was (really) impressive was the pellet clearly out performed the bullet on steel penetration. I forget the details now exactly, but they did some 100 yards shots into a dirt bank and the spread looked like 10 ft. plus, maybe worse.



  4. Thanks, B.B.! I knew this gun existed and I knew a little about it, but nowhere near the level of detail you supplied here.
    When I was a kid, I used to rake leaves for my neighbor, Lita Strojny, who had survived her time in the Nazi death camp, Auschwitz-Birkenau. Her reward to working for the Polish resistance was to be tried in absentia by an S.S. Military High Tribunal in Danzig and and sentenced to life imprisonment in Auschwitz for “treasonable activities” against the German Reich.” As a nurse, she continued helping people even in that prison.
    Years later, she entrusted me with a copy of “Willow,” her story of her time there.
    When she passed away, I made sure her story made it over to the Holocaust Museum in Israel.
    Since there’s fewer and fewer around who can tell the stories from WWII, I like to gather up as much information as possible about it; hence, I thought this was a really great piece about an important time in world history.
    Thanks again for the lesson, B.B.!


  5. B.B.,

    Very interesting. With a million made, you would think that there would be at least one story out there. Perhaps one will turn up today? You never know. Stranger things have happened.

    In theory, it sounds good. In reality, you would have to have the opposition alone and somewhat secluded, less fellow opposition forces would come to the rescue to investigate. It would not be quite, unless maybe the muzzle was pressed right against the target. Even then, might muzzle back pressure blow it apart? You might get a shot off and succeed, but not for long.

    For what it is, the original resale prices are quite astounding. The replica looks nice. You say “… can shoot these a few times”,… but I would hope for better than a few. Maybe not. Maybe it is just enough to own the replica.

    Good Day to you and to all,.. Chris



      • Chris,

        I speak English, French, Dutch, a bit of Japanese and a smattering of Russian… sometimes the spell-checkers have no idea what I am trying to write 🙂

        Hank


    • Chris U,

      Times were hard for those folks but maybe not hard enough to make ’em take a chance on pullin’ the trigger on that thing. They may have viewed it as a Nazi plot to get them to eradicate themselves. Any of the country folk there surely would have questioned the shot-worthiness of a gun that was made out of sheetmetal. After all, they had handled real firearms before, I’d bet.

      Half



  6. A very interesting piece of history B.B. – thanks for sharing!

    I have a copy of the 1966 Army Technical Manual TM 31-200-1 “Unconventional Warfare Devices and Techniques” that shows a number of “zip” guns. Didn’t see the Liberator listed. The book is full of all kinds of scary devices.

    Talking about war mementos, this past week, someone in London Ontario found a live WW1 artillery shell in the garbage…

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4213383/londoner-finds-live-wwi-era-artillery-shell/

    Hank


    • Hank,

      I read it. Wow. What is really amazing that this thing has survived this long and just how many hands it has passed through over the years. Unless mistaken, the “firing pin” would be at the nose? If so, what would it take?,…. a blow with an average hammer?

      Chris


      • Chris,

        Considering it is 90 pound artillery shell there would be plenty of energy available to crush the detonator when it hit – I would guess that it would take more than a hammer blow to set it off.

        If you were carrying it and dropped it on it’s nose that might do it. That would be a big OOPS!

        Hank



        • Hank,

          I am pretty sure that I have seen an old Bugs Bunny cartoon that showed the Ol’ Bugs sitting at an arsenal assembly line and he was testing each shell with a hammer,.. ting,… ting,… ting. It must be ok, as he never had one go off. 😉

          I do know that they turn up over in Europe from time to time. It makes the news. Long buried and long forgotten about.

          Long story short,.. I was given a paper grocery bag full of fireworks many years ago. Cleaned out from an old Grandpa’s basement. I did not really have a place to shoot them off at the time, so I gave them away. As it turned out, there was about a dozen 1/4 sticks of dynamite in there. The friend got quite the surprise when he let that first one off. I did not know what it was. The paper on them was very old and all brown.


          • Chris,

            1/4 stick of dynamite would sure be an attention getter!

            As a kid we could buy firecrackers. The came in many sizes from 1/2 inch long “lady fingers” to 3/4″ diameter, 6 inch long “block busters”.

            Firecrackers are considered “dangerous” now and can’t be purchased. Of the thousands and thousands my friends and I let off over the years, nobody I knew (or heard of) ever got hurt and no property was damaged. While we “played” with firecrackers we learned first hand about handling them and how to use matches safely. Think that kids these days are so protected by legislation that they miss out on the real world. Oh well.

            Happy Friday eh!

            Hank



              • Thanks for that Chris, remember that one well.

                One of my favorites is when coyote released a swarm of flying explosives that kept on plaguing him all through the cartoon.

                Hank


            • Hank,

              You are 100% correct, kids now days have no idea about consequences they think there is a reset button if things go wrong and seem to not understand when they do something that goes bad. The only injury i had as a kid was when a rocket engine I made for a hand launched plane exploded all of my body was covered and a welding helmet but no gloves. Had some burned fingers. That was a good lesson. I had the welding gloves ready but did not put them on.


              • I learned a hard lesson while shooting a neighbor’s black powder cap and ball revolver. I used a two hand hold while shooting it…bad idea. I was picking black power out my hand for a week afterwards. He didn’t warn me either.


                • Geo791,

                  I have a couple of colt replica 44 cal cap and ball revolvers, yep grease and half burnt powder comes out between the barrel and cylinder. I use two hands sometimes but the left hand is also holding the right hand behind the cylinder. One gun only has half a cylinder, that story is for another day. Stupid is as stupid does.

                  Don


              • Don,

                Seems we had similar childhoods – too bad you live so far away 🙂

                My father had a little Atlas lathe in the workshop and I used it to make the venturies and nose-cones for my rockets. Did a paper on Oxidizers and Propellants using data from my home made rocket engine test bed – got high marks for that one.

                Yup, safety glasses, welders gloves and smock. Electrical ignition with a 50 foot wire. My launch pad was ringed in cement cinder blocks to contain any problems.

                Only had one engine detonate ( I found out after that it had been dropped down the stairs ) – when it blew it turned 3 of the cinder blocks into gravel and cracked a couple of others.

                Cheers,
                Hank


            • Hank
              Interesting you should mention firecrackers on this Victoria Day weekend in Canada especially. This weekend is the time when every corner convenience store in Calgary sold thousands of packages of Black Jacks. They were a dime for a package of about 20, or 25. We used to light incense sticks we called “punks” so we didn’t have to light a match for every firecracker. When I was about 12 years old, I was walking home with a friend who had a package in his back pocket. Some kid snuck up from behind, and somehow managed to light the fuse, causing 1st, and 2nd degree burns to his buttock as the firecrackers were designed to explode in sequence. I think it was stunts like these that caused Moms, and Dads to complain, forcing the government ban the sale of all fireworks without a permit. Especially as they were so redly available to young children who lacked the maturity to fully understand the consequences of their actions.
              Ciao
              Titus


              • Titus,

                I grew up in Montreal and Victoria Day weekend was anxiously awaited. Remember saving my allowance for months so I could stock up on firecrackers. We didn’t have incense sticks so our punks were lengths of braided cotton butchers cord.

                The firecracker in the pocket is a dumb stunt and anything but funny. 1st ans 2nd degree burns would warrant some serious punishment. We always policed ourselves. If somebody suggested something stupid everyone would talk him out of the idea. If he did something stupid he could be “smartened” up. If he did something that injured or almost injured somebody he would probably get a beating for his stupidity (to educate him) and be rejected from the group. Never had that happen with any of the people I knew directly.

                Firecrackers were always fun. If they were legally available you could be sure I would have a couple of packs for the weekend 🙂

                Happy Victoria Day Titus!

                Hank



  7. Mr. Gaylord:
    Here’s an additional bit of trivia about the Liberator. It was a General Motors product. GM Inland Division designed the liberator. Guide Lamp Corporation of G.M. did the final assembly. Frigidaire Division of GM chambered the barrels. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM made barrel bushings. And Detroit Transmission Division along with Saginaw Steering Gear made barrel collars.
    A total of 1,000,000 liberators were made and sold at $2.10
    For anyone’s who’s interestered, there’s more information on the Liberator and Guide Lamp contribution to War II at
    http://usautoindustryworldwartwo.com/General%20Motors/guidelamp.htm
    Respectfully,
    William Schooley
    PS Had an older family member. now deceased, who used to worked in the Anderson IN plant in WW II and I heard a lot about Guidelamps one shot secret weapon.


  8. I remember as a teenager (some 50 years ago) I saw one of these at a gun show. At the time I was completely uninterested but as time went on I got interested in WW ll history and remembered the little pistol from the gun show. I did some research on the little gun and regret not purchasing the gun. I guess hindsight is always 20/20. Thanks for writing about this piece of history.


  9. Well guess what I’m going to say.

    This gun is accurate.

    What??

    Yep for it’s intended use. Point blank accuracy.

    And another accurate gun in it’s own way. 😉


  10. B.B.,

    Thank you so very much for this report.

    We tend to think of “last ditch” weapons as being by the Japanese and Germans, but too many of we Americans do not know that after the occupation of France, the Blitz of England, and the decimation of our fleet at Pearl Harbor, things were pretty scary for the Allies. It took quite a while even after D-Day for some confidence to form. Europe went awful fast, and the British were willing to fight to the bitter end, but it looked like a bitter end might have been their fate.

    The Resistance converted a lot of kitchen knives, rasps, screwdrivers and files into daggers and bodkins to pull off a quick end to an inebriated German soldier thinking he was going to enjoy himself at a pretty jeune filles’ room.

    We need to learn history’s lessons.

    Vive la Resistance!

    Michael


    • Michael,

      Fortunately the U.S. Navy had all of the Aircaftcarriers out to sea.
      And not many of the subs were in Pearl either.
      Although our best U-boats were not even designed in late ’41
      Otherwise it really would have been a quick war in the Pacific.
      With the USA out of the picture in the European and North African theater.

      Was it just luck? Hmm!

      shootski



    • Bob,

      Very nice. I clicked on the ’99 Senate bill in the link and it mentioned safety in general and standard drop test. Really nothing on size. Would this be considered unsafe and is it currently illegal? If so, why? Derringers are not much bigger.


      • Chris
        This guy was making these out of his garage in Santee Ca and I just happened to live in Santee at the time.
        Ca passed SB15 to stop production of unsafe cheap pot metal junk pocket pistols that were being bought and used by bad guys. He got caught up in the technicalities by not having an active safety. I think he only made a little over 100. It’s a last resort belly gun. Not at all a fun shooter. But I bet an insert with an offset bore for a .22 LR may be usable. It would have to be offset to hit the rim with its center fire.
        I made another entry in the Nova blog earlier in case you didn’t return to it. (GF1)


        • Bob,

          Well,… there is some first hand information. Thank you.

          I did see your latest Nova post. Please keep us posted. I am very anxious to hear of some shooting and pumping reviews. No pressure. Take your time. You are one of the very few in the air gun world that seems to be ahead of the Nova “curve”. Good for you, I say. 😉




      • BB
        Looks like one sold for $895. a few years ago. I think I paid less than $300. If he started S/N’s at 100 mine is 39. Tape is to retain loose barrel the pivot pin. Don’t want to re-stake it for now. For a safety I just don’t lock down the loaded barrel. Button behind the trigger needs to be pressed to allow it to lock down and release.
        Bob M



  11. Chris
    Thanks for cutting me some slack.
    Do I go out and sight in the rifle, repair an automatic transmission stuck in overdrive, track down the cause of a multiple random misfire code on my Dodge pickup or ….. kick back in my recliner watch Raquel in Fathom and have a cold one? Easy choice for now !
    If you have any specific thing you are looking for let me know because frankly Stephan Archer did way more than I plan to do.
    When I really want to hit something I always revert to plan ‘A’ ….. Use the FX Indy 🙂

    This Nova may be a handy alternative. Then again it may not. I think I may have a leaker on my hands. By design or by defect? Need to look into it but as you say not much info out there for now. Left it at 3,000 psi and will check it later and report.


    • Bob,

      Curvaceous ladies and a cold one win out every time in my book! Plan “A”,… ehh? I like that. Keep us posted whenever you get to it. Hopefully all is well.






    • Yes, I watched this video last week. There is another video out there on the Phox too. Really surprised he could hit those cans at 100 yards with a sub-12 foot pound Phox (Urban).

      Also, got the grass cut day before yesterday and was hoping to get some shooting time. But no, had too much running around to do and by the time I could get out and shoot, I was too pooped out. And today at about 7:00 PM the rain arrived again. I have some baby bluebirds in one of my nesting boxes and we’ve been sitting out in our new screened in porch watching the birds. So far no sparrow attacks this spring yet.


  12. Now there’s a tiny gun. Yet it holds 10 round of 45 ACP? I can’t imagine the recoil since I find small frame .38s to be snappy. And that is a master stroke off marketing to sell the once $2 gun for $680, even taking inflation into account. There was ingenuity at work, but the whole idea is a little sad. It reeks of the idea that resistance fighters were expendable which is how they were treated numbers of times during the Cold War, abandoned after the CIA had encouraged them to rise up with promises of military support. I also find it a little hard to believe that quality guns were in shorty supply when you think of the mountains of K98 rifles lying around at the end of WWII and the thousands of M14s in storage that have been destroyed by James McNamara and others.

    Matt61



      • Whatever way they can fit them in there is impressive to me. I would be surprised if the gun held together for all those rounds. While the Defense Department was stingy with guns, they seem to have had lavish supplies of ammunition. When an American pilot was shot down over the English Channel, he amused himself during his parachute descent by shooting his handgun at the water.

        Matt61


  13. BB
    A lot of the guys are very interested in anything they can get on the Nova Freedom PCP and if you don’t mind I would like to reply to them on a current blog so as not to have to reply to each individually working through an old blog. I figure P/A may never get to offer it, at least for now but it is somewhat of a big deal and I seem to be alone with it.
    Thanks,
    Bob M


  14. B.B.,

    “Please tell me if this helped you. I may be preaching to the choir — which means reinforcing what those who use peep sights already know, but not convincing or teaching anyone who wants to learn. I will read your comments and go from there”.

    At a current 211 comments,.. I would say that “peeps” are worthy of a Part 2. 😉

    Chris




  15. Nova Freedom .22 Pump PCP
    Last night I waited patiently for BB to post he new blog so I could post more info on this rifle and after an hour or two
    realized its Friday, no new blog. I need to pay more attention to my “Day” clock. a novelty item that has become greater in significance in my retirement and old age.
    So after spending over an hour gathering information and documenting it I minimized the page to re check something on the Hard Air Magazine article and when I returned everything I had written had vanished. Bed time.

    So this afternoon I decided to test fire the rifle. Now you guys are dragging me into target shooting kicking and screaming. First pick a scope and rings combo. Settled on a BSA essentials 2-7X32 AO Duplex Reticle 1/4 MOA 1″ tube I had. It just clears the mag and barrel shroud with low or possibly medium rings, not sure. In hind sight a slightly higher magnification and mil dot reticle would be better to deal with longer range and pellet drop. A larger scope would obviously help, tried it, but decided against the weight. I do not plan to shoot out beyond 50yards for anything but plinking.
    The rifle is a bit loud for a small yard, but its not the sound of a rifle shot. More the metallic ping that I found totally easy to live with, not an annoying high pitched ringing. Just a mechanical slam, but I’m a little deaf anyway. 🙂

    I normally just sight in an airgun. Finding the right pellet for a gun can really take some time so I settled on a reliable 18.13gr JSB Match Diabolo Exact I had on hand. I’m not gonna get real deep here. At 10 yards this rifle is capable of one hole shots, and at 30 yds. dime size holes. Anything that was outside was my fault..

    I just sat in the dirt at a folding table with wheels and a beach chair. Beyond that things opened up to an inch or two because of the irregular wind, my ability to see, and I believe the changing air pressure in the rifle. The point of impact dropped off also, hence the mil dot.

    This is not like any other rifle. You need to be aware of how it works and decide what reason you want it for. You really need to pump it up for each shot you take. More after a string of shots or only a couple after each.. I recommend maintaining the on board pressure range Stephen Archer suggests. The closer the pressure the more consistent the shots.. I kept to four shots for sight in and after each shot for high power long distance shots for consistency. Low power obviously keeps more shots consistent.
    The hand pump is not that hard at all but requires a lot of movement. A bit harder at higher pressure. Two fingers will do it up to 3,000psi, then three, on your lap upside down. Holding it vertical and lifting the handle up and pulling it down is not strenuous. The hardest spot is mid way down to closing. Thing is, you will be pumping a lot for an afternoons play.

    This is a perfect hunting, survival and casual plinking and target practice rifle…. as long as you are not in a rush to shoot it repeatedly and fast. You will have to work for that. It’s the trade off for doing without power, a compressor, air bottle, hand pump and associated hardware. I would recommend it for ‘Adults’ wanting a first PCP without spending too much for that support equipment.
    Fact is using a compressor or bottle will not help all that much. It does not have the storage capacity to make it practical. Easier perhaps, but certainly very repetitious.

    Cutting this off before I lose it.
    Bob M


    • Nova Freedom PCP
      I mentioned a possible leak yesterday. Well after 21 hours it leaked down from 3,000 psi tp 2,000psi. Reason unknown so far. Now that’s a lot of pressure but a very small volume of air. It took 36 pumps to bring it back up. There are more possible places for a leak with a built in hand pump and I still don’t know if it was ever meant to hold all that pressure. (Weekend) Need to see if it stops at some point. and actually troubleshoot it.

      I did not use the open sights, trifocals and old age, but they appear to be just fine. Very small fiber optic inserts. Red in front and the green horseshoe in the rear which is fully adjustable .Audible positive clicks for the windage but only a copper insert on the elevation knob that screws up and down a threaded shaft in the metal removable sight mounting base. A hidden spring in there provides the tension against it. Holds firm but does not lock in place.
      I like the weight distribution of this rifle. It is not concentrated in a small space which can cause a rifle to want to continue moving in your hand when moved around (Momentum)) working on your wrist. You do move this rifle a lot for pumping.
      Try keeping your hand on the outside part of the pump handle to avoid pinching.

      I’m trying not to duplicate all the information Stephan Archer gave us on his Hard Air internet Magazine.

      Am I glad I purchased it? Yes! Would I recommend it ? So far, Yes. Just be aware of what to expect from a PCP that pumps up. It’s a different kind of high powered rifle that requires your labor for operation and consistency with multiple shots, not like a single shot pumper,.
      Bob M


      • Bob M,

        Thank you for this peek into your rifle. Did you leave it cocked or uncocked while under pressure? If the hammer was pressing on the valve it could release a small amount of air over time. That might be one source for the leak down.

        Siraniko


        • Siraniko,

          Wouldn’t it be difficult for the hammer to overpower the valve spring and the 3000 psi stored in it? I assumed the cocking before pumping caution was in case the valve was being held open the hammer, thereby preventing filling in the first place. Even on those guns where it is recommended I think you are supposed to decock after filling which would leave the hammer resting on the valve stem again. The hammer spring would fatigue over time and it wouldn’t be safe, either.

          Half


          • GF1,

            Thanks for that addition. I thought the same, but at this point, it is worth a try. I am thinking that it is some (fitting point) in the air storage system. (tube to breech thread, gauge thread, fill port thread, end cap thread, etc.) I think anything to do with the pump would be a non-issue as I stated prior.

            As far as the pump goes, I think that anything related to it would (directly) mimic a hand pump in issues,… and not related to any leak down issues.



        • Siraniko
          Thanks for the suggestion, but I doubt it could unseat a valve with 3,000psi working against it. Now a bad valve seat, could be. I’m going to call American Tactical Monday before I dig into anything..


      • Bob,

        Thank you for the update. I can relate to a post disappearing. I think that I have done what you did ,but, mine was usually the internet dropping out for a few seconds just as I hit post. Very frustrating. It can be done with the basic “Word” that comes with Windows and I have done that, but very few times. It appears totally different when you are typing, but transfers ok.

        Over all, the rifle is sounding very nice. The leak down is a bit of a mystery. 1000 is notable. Not like it was 50 or 100. I would go with Siraniko’s comment too. (leave it cocked) I would not like that, but it would be a good 1 time over night test.

        B.B. has mentioned having to cock a pumper (in order to get to pump) but I do not recall that (also) being applicable to getting it to hold air. 2 different things there. Once the pump has done it’s thing and put air into the air chamber and valve, I think that the pump is out of the equation.

        A leak at the fill port and/or the gauge would be more applicable I think. Really, anywhere where the storage of air is concerned. Since a normal pumper just stores air in the valve, whereas yours does that, plus stores air in a tube, there is some differences there. The good old soapy water/bubble test is always an option depending if you can apply it/get to it.

        You mentioned pumping after each shot, which surprised me a bit. I thought? I was left with the impression that the fps was pretty nice over several shots in a string? No different than my non-regulated Marauder, or my Maximus, before I regulated it. Of course fps spread/accuracy correlation can vary from rifle to rifle, but most can tolerate quite a bit before accuracy suffers much.

        Do you top off each shot in the FX Indy? That would be the same, unless it is regulated.

        It is good that the pumping is manageable. You mentioned being older, 😉 , so that is good for us older folks.

        All in all, it is sounding good. Maybe American Tactical will be of some help with the leak down? At the very least, this will be a test of their customer/technical support. (which, if I were you,… I would subtly slip that hint in while in communications with them, and, the fact that you are reviewing the gun on the worlds most read air gun blog). Sometimes, a little pressure can be a good thing,.. ehh? 😉

        That is about all I have for you on any ideas. Keep us posted,…. Chris


      • Bob,

        I see that you have the Independence, not the Indy. I did not know there was both until I got to looking at the FX line this morning. While doing so, I ran across Gile’s review of the Daystate Red Wolf. My, my, my,…. what is not to like there? Well,… other than that I do not have an expendable 3000 just hanging around. The electronic metering on those guns is something to behold. Not to mention the incredible shot count. The spread was not as tight as I might have expected with the electronics. 11’ish for shots 1-100’ish. Still,.. incredible.

        Both the FX and Daystate lines are very nice. Maybe someday!


        • Chris
          I’m sure the FX Independence is regulated. They claim 7 accurate shots before topping off is needed. No I don’t pump after each shot unless I just want to keep it topped off. I see some new FX models have adjustable regulators.
          I also have the shorter FX Indy. The Independence was nicknamed the ‘Indy’ and now with the shorter version out later it becomes confusing. Short rifle, short name.

          I was checking for accuracy so I tried to keep the pressure the same each shot. On high power pressure drops off pretty fast but you can get a few shots off each pumping. I was trying to avoid any possible stringing. As Stephan Archer pointed out you can make adjustments for many usable shots on low power setting. They claim up to 17 ‘usable ‘shots. Just remember you will eventually have to pump a lot to bring pressure back up. I prefer fewer pumps after a shot or two to avoid the workout.
          By the way, I had no problem hitting a beer can 80 yards out on high and low power. Just aimed at the top of the can.
          Bob M


          • Bob,

            Not to disagree with you, but no mention of regulated is mentioned in the description and none in the video (I watched it) on the A of A page. If it was,.. I am pretty sure they would have used it as a sales point. It does look super fine though!

            I will say,.. you have very fine taste in air guns. 80 yards is nothing to sneeze at for sure.


            • Chris
              You may be right. Perhaps it was not a big selling point or there really is none.

              That needs checking. I just may be using it at such close range that it’s always accurate. Add to that the fact I like to keep it topped off and it probably performs like it has one ?

              AGD had a comment that some new FX models now have variable regulators and that invariably led me to ass-ume older ones had fixed regulators.


              • Bob M,

                I have found myself and have seen BB, claiming in this blog, that consistent shot to shot velocity can be achieved through good, balanced tuning in the valve. I actually think I recall him stating that it is the best way and that regulators are really mostly useful for increasing shot count, If I am quoting you wrong BB, please correct me.

                My Gamo Coyote and one of my Urban’s get quite a few shots with very good SDs and ESs and they don’t have regulators, although many reviewers have been tricked into thinking that they do.

                I have to believe that any Air Arms product is going to be tuned better than my Gamos, even if they are really BSA wolves in Gamo’s sheep’s clothing.

                Half


                • Half
                  Backtracked up the blog. I agree with you. A good valve probably will only let a certain amount of air pass through and thus act as a regulator itself . Big valve, big power?

                  Regulated air bottles do the same and preserve the supply. But there is also talk about regulators limiting the highest power that it could produce when one is in use on some airguns. Say when a regulator restricts the amount of air a gun valve can really handle.
                  A trade off? More constant shots with a good valve and lots of air on hand or a lot of consistent shots with a regulator that causes a valve to underperform for more shots.

                  The hand pump on the PCP is a regulator sort of speaking. You can take advantage of full power or hold it at any level of performance by maintaining a certain pressure with the pump for constant performance, Just more work because there really is not a lot of air stored for a valve to sip air off of.
                  Hope I understood you.


                  • Bob M,

                    To use GF1’s words(word?) Yep.

                    It doesn’t seem to be just the valve by itself, either. It’s the balance of striker mass, striker spring weight, transfer port size, reservoir capacity and fill pressure and, also, the pellet weight. I can crank in the striker preload spring on my Coyote and shoot a 16 grain .177 Sniper Magnum over a chronograph for 20 shots and you would swear it was regulated. With a lighter pellet it doesn’t look nearly as impressive.

                    Half



    • Bob M,

      I have done both. Waited hours for a Saturday morning blog and drafted a lengthy comment, hit X instead of — and lost it all, so welcome ,Brother. 😉

      You do make it sound like a special purposed gun. Fortunately, “zombie apocalypse” survival is what I had in mind anyway, so all is good in that regard. It seems accurate enough for small game hunting and bad guy deterrence. Would you say that it takes an adult male to pump it up comfortably from empty or is it within the capabilities of a slight women or young teenager?

      Thanks for the update.

      Oh yeah, just remembered to ask, did it turn out to be a leaker or not?

      Half


    • Bob M & Halfstep, and others,

      Regarding losing your comments before getting them posted, I suggest that you not use the “minimize” window feature. Instead, use multiple tabs by right-clicking and choosing “open link in a new tab”. If you want to keep the blog open and search for something, click the + at the end of your tabs to open a new blank tab. Then do your searches, or type in a web address. If you use the multiple tabs feature you then just click on whichever tab to reopen that page, and jump back and forth while keeping everything open and handy.

      You guys may already understand, or use, this technique but I thought I would throw it out there just in case you were not aware of the it. It is sure upsetting to spend a lot of time compiling a comment and then to have it just disappear…it’s happened to me too 🙁


      • Geo,

        That is what I do. It works great until you hit X and close the window/tab. I did that twice this AM in the process of posting a link. Oh,.. and erased my comment that I had started too by closing the PA tab.

        I would chalk it up to lack of coffee, but I think I was on my 3rd mug at the time. 🙁 Oh well!

        Thanks for all your computer help!


        • Chris,

          Yeah, don’t do that 😀

          Yup on the lack of coffee too. Glad to help with any computer issues as well.
          I am following all the comments posted today…it’s tough to keep up with but
          some very interesting ideas are posted. The “peeps” topic seems to be a hot one.


      • Geo,

        On my recently updated Windows 10, the icon is a page with a star in the upper right corner. Mouse over it and a pop up says “new tab”. Do that and it takes me back to my Yahoo home page to begin a new search. The pop up also says Ctrl + t. That worked too. I have no “+” like you say.

        By the way, the Windows spring update went just fine and I did not have to use the HP Smart Friend service at all. 0% issues.


        • Chris,

          Okay, I use Windows 7 with Firefox as my web browser. So that is the reason you see the star instead of the + sign. Windows 10 normally defaults to the new Microsoft Edge web browser. Internet Explorer is still on the system but Microsoft hides it so you will use Edge. Edge works fine too.

          Yahoo is not the best search engine, Google is still the best. I always make Google the default search engine. Also, you can go to the settings in Edge, or IE, and choose the page you want as your home page and also you can change the new tab option to be “blank” instead of your home page. I use Yahoo as my home page too but do not use their search engine.

          So you have already received the spring Windows update (1803)? Microsoft had a major bug in it and did not release it right away as scheduled. Glad it’s working well for you with no issues.


          • Geo,

            Just checked my update history and yes it was installed successfully about a week ago. 0% issues. Everything stayed the same and even left Explorer as my home page. It (is) the 1803. I don’t know (believe me when I say that! 😉 but it appears to be all good).


      • Geo,

        What I have learned to do ( Windows 7) is click the gray parallelogram to the right of the last tab across the top of the page and open a new google search box.

        I think it’s great that you chime in with tips like these. I know that I am probably doing some things the hard way and I’m all about the easy life. That RSS reader tip has been great.

        Half


        • Halfstep,

          Good for you! You’ve already discovered how to use the tabs. It really does not matter which version of Windows you are using. It’s all about which web browser you use. Microsoft Internet Explorer, Edge, Google Chrome, or Firefox all work in a very similar fashion. The setting options are also similar but accessing those settings is just a bit different in each browser. Glad the Comments RSS feed works well for you…it does save a ton of time, and you won’t miss any new comments. PA has changed it somewhat but it still works well. We used to be able to access two weeks comments in the RSS feed but now there is only a day or two available. So that means you have to stay on top of the comments or you’ll miss some.


  16. You guys will get a kick out of this DUHH!!! moment,..

    Planted some veggie plants around my front porch yesterday. Complete with 48″ cages, for when the plants get bigger. So,… I was out this morning looking over my new “babies” just like a proud Papa. (The duh moment is coming)

    Standing there,… I look up the shooting lane and ponder. I look back at the shooting bench and ponder. My thought are turning to shooting. All of this pondering is occurring as I am standing next to a 4 foot tall cage. About a half hour later,.. I am over by my bench and looking up the lane. What is in the way? A 4′ cage (directly) in my shooting path! Man did I feel like an idiot! No fear though,… all was fixed a half hour later.

    (I shoot across the front of the house. From about 30 yards to 100, is a 5-6′ rise in elevation of the wooded shooting lane. My little boo-boo cut me off from 20 – 50 yards shots at ground level)


    • Nova Freedom leak
      Chris … If I did something like that, or better yet when I do something like that and my daughter is present I most certainly would hear, ” Dad, your such a tard ! ” . Obviously she can’t distinguish between the totally relaxed mind of a retired senior and a mental impairment. 🙂

      My lap top is a half breed. Windows kicked me out of 10 for having such slow speeds when I run out of satellite dish time, after they rearranged everything and screwed it up. Every update slows it down even more.
      Windows 9?

      My FX Independence hand pump will loose pressure ( no resistance to the first pump ) after a few days but it recovers immediately. Not sure of the setup with this Nova Freedom. It may all be connected and explain the slow leak down? Either way it really has no effect on shooting it. The power is there and strong.

      I probably won’t be using it a whole lot to see how it holds up after long time use but I’m sure others will be on it eventually.

      Bob M


      • Bob, you might try Ubuntu – it’s free and takes a lot less overhead than Windows. I set up my laptop a few years ago to double-boot with Windows 7 or Ubuntu 14 and almost never have a need for Windows. Since then I’ve upgraded my laptop to Ubuntu 16 and 18 is right around the corner, so it keeps getting improved upon all the time. Just sayin’
        Larry in Algona


        • LarryMo
          Not too computer literate myself and usually consult my daughters first but thanks for the information.
          Limited dish satellite internet speeds can play hell. A lot of sites complain about my slow speed when I use up my limited allotted time. Unlimited access time would put me in the poor house 🙁

          No Wi-Fi or reliable internet service where I live.


          • Hi Bob,

            I have found dish satellite internet to be very slow also…especially for the price. I have checked the speeds at various homes. It’s really slow and you won’t even be able to stream video well.

            Have you considered using a Verizon hot spot? I think the cost is about the same and it’s faster and more reliable. It is pricey though at around $59 a month. I feel sorry for folks living out in the boon docks and not able to get decent internet.

            You stated,
            “My lap top is a half breed. Windows kicked me out of 10 for having such slow speeds when I run out of satellite dish time, after they rearranged everything and screwed it up. Every update slows it down even more. Windows 9?”

            Microsoft skipped over version 9 and went straight from 8.0 & 8.1 to 10. Windows 10 is actually a rebuild of 8.0 to fix all the problems people were having with it. Also, if your laptop is more than three years old and came with Windows 7 originally, you should probably stay with Windows 7 on that system. Windows 10 requires at least 8 GBs of ram to run efficiently whereas Windows 7 ran on 2 to 4 GBs just fine. The slowness you are experiencing is more likely due to the system needing a thorough cleanup of junk files and removal of malware that has accumulated on the hard drive. My suggestion would be to download and install the free version of Ccleaner (piroform.com) and run the cleanup tool. Then download and install the free version of Malwarebytes (malwarebytes.com) and run a full scan for malware and remove anything it flags.

            Doing just these two things can speed up your system and does not require a lot of knowledge to accomplish. It’s like changing the oil in your car. Computer systems need maintenance too. I spend a lot of time tuning old systems for people and cleaning malware off their drives. It matters not that you run an antivirus program, malware will still get into the system if any web browsing is done…nothing will stop it 100%. I’ve never checked a computer that didn’t have malware on it.
            Hope you find some of this information helpful. I’m always here reading comments so if you have any questions and need any computer help, just comment to me and I’ll try to help.


            • Geo791

              Boy I really appreciate that info. I don’t have any friends that know much about computers. I need to do something for sure. I have a Dell XPS that came with Windows 7 and eventually moved up to 10 and that’s when everything went down hill.
              I think windows turned off Apps and everything has to download and then be changed back every time I start it up can take 10 min. I was just going to get a new computer.. I’ll keep in touch when I jump into it. Always getting pop ups about failures of app to load. All those home screen app bubbles disappeared and it went back to a modified Windows 8


              • Bob,

                “I was just going to get a new computer.” This is what many people do when their computers finally get bogged down with malware, and or, viruses. This is usually due to the cost of repairs in a shop exceeding more than half the value of the old computer, and it’s just easier to buy a new one. You don’t need the latest and greatest computer to do what you need. That is unless you are a gamer. The new games require tons of power and are very costly.

                I use an old HP desktop that was given to me when the motherboard went out. It’s really a hybrid now because I have changed virtually all the parts inside the case. I went to Windows 7 kicking and screaming because XP did everything I needed and I had any problems. My new version of Quicken would not run on XP. So last April I updated my system to Windows 7. At that time I really hated Windows 10. Microsoft didn’t include drivers (programs that identify the hardware) for older hardware, such as printers or cameras. Consequently, you had to by a new printer. My feeling is that is extortion and I did not want to participate. Older computers and hardware really work better with Windows 7. If you get a new Windows 10 system, that is different because they are made to run Windows 10.

                Dell made some pretty good stuff, much better than HP’s. Depending on the age you may have a hidden partition on the hard drive with the original factory setup. There’s a key combination that will revert everything back to original. Of course you would have to reinstall your programs and let Windows do tons of updates initially. Depending on your needs this may be a good way to go. Some of the older programs are not compatible with Windows 10 either and won’t run on it. I have a medical records program that won’t run on Win 10 so I would have to keep an old Win 7 computer just to run that program…gerrrr.

                Sorry for the long off topic post…I get carried away with this stuff sometimes. Glad to help in any way possible. Best of luck to you. Now back to airguns 😀

                Geo


                • Geo
                  Let me also add thanks for the info. I am going to try the fixes you mentioned because my newest computer is disappointingly slow. It came with windows 10 and I got it to replace a unit running XP. I mostly keep up with the blog on a tablet because I can catch up on the tablet before the computer is done opening.
                  Gerald


                  • Gerald,

                    Is you computer a laptop or a desktop? Has it always been slow, or just gradually gotten slower? Ccleaner (crap cleaner) is a great program to rid your system of junk and temp files. There are other things that can cause your system to be slow as well. Sometimes files can get corrupted on the hard drive. Type “My PC” in the search box and look for the root drive “C:”. Right click on C: to get a drop down menu and then select properties. Look for the tab “Tools”. Click the button “Check now…” in the error-checking area. Tick the box “Automatically fix file system errors” and leave the other box unchecked. Click the “Start” button. A box will open stating that “Windows can’t check the disk while it’s in use”. Click the button “Schedule disk check”. Now restart you computer and an error check will start before Windows loads. If there is any corruption on the hard drive this will repair it. I’ve seen file corruption cause a system to start very slowly. It’s just one more thing to check, and easy to do.

                    If you get popups continually while you are browsing, then you have malware on your system. Malwarebytes is my go to program to fix malware infections and it does a pretty good job. Some systems I’ve worked on have so much malware I have to use several additional removal tools. But just one step at time.

                    Oh, and another thing that will cause your system to be very sluggish is programs running in the background on startup. When you install Ccleaner and open it you will see some buttons down the left side. Don’t mess with the “Registry” button. Click on the “Tools” button and the second item down from the top is “Startup”. This will show you all the programs running in the background. You can selectively disable any program from running at startup. You can safely disable everything on this list with the exception of your antivirus program. If you notice something is not working as you would like following disabling everything, just open Ccleaner back up and click on the program and re-enable it. Most everything in that list though does not have to run in the background. This will speed up your computer noticeably, especially if you don’t a lot of ram (random access memory) installed on the computer.

                    Others on the blog can benefit from these tips as well. Any questions, just ask.

                    Geo


                    • Geo
                      I have an HP laptop that replaced my old HP laptop with windows XP. I don’t recall the model # but I know it was two years old in February.
                      Gerald


                • Geo
                  Without the internet where would we be. I cant do this with a phone. Too small.
                  Thanks again. I need a free day to clear my mind take it all in and jump into it.
                  No more computer games, it’s PS3 for me now and one of my favorites is Modern Warfare 2 and the Special Ops Sections.
                  Bob M



                    • Geo,

                      I have been trying to absorb what you have been saying,.. and really it all seems fairly simple. I do not have a printer, but having a printed copy of the “how to” is how I work best. If I dive in and get very far,… invariably there will be choices and things to turn on and off. Jargon on which I have no clue what it means. I back out.

                      ***** One simple question,…. does Norton 360 have to be turned off for the anti-virus programs that you have suggested to work? It would seem to me that you would be running 2 things at one time,… trying to do the same thing?

                      For what I do, my laptop does just fine. I would suppose??? that most people are running a system like Norton 360,.. whatever it may be. You have to run “something”,… right?

                      My main concern is on line credit card purchases. The (very) few times I have, there has been bogus charges show up later about 50% of the time. Hence,..new credit card, etc., etc.,…. Hassle! 100% issue(s) resolved. No debt.

                      Keep it simple! 😉



      • Bob,

        Well,.. if past Chinese production methods are any indication of current ones,… I am sure that they got their hands on something close and of similar quality to the FX, ripped it apart bumper to bumper and proceeded to rip off and cut every corner they could. That may not be the case with the Nova, but you never know. They do seem like they are a different breed.

        Don’t get me wrong. I like smarts and I like innovation. If they can do it and produce a same product, I am interested. It will be interesting to see what American Tactical has to say and how much help they are. Better yet,…. just give you the # to the “Big Guy” himself over in China.

        As always,… keep us posted.

        “Tard” ehh?,…. that is no way to talk to the Ol’ Man! 😉


  17. Chris
    Lost another short post but this time it was my fault. Hit the red X up in the header….Tard is as Tard does !
    We joke around a lot. Heck she’s 43

    You were right about the FX Independence not having a regulator. One selling point is that every rifle, Airgun, has a sweet spot where it performs best and the large pressure gage on the FX allows you to easily maintain a pressure with the hand pump to control it. The pump is really acting as a pressure regulator you control.

    I’m always a little disappointed with AOA and the FX I got from them. Evidently it came with a free scope, I did not pay attention, and after months of waiting they came in but never got to be shipped. When I called them to find out what was up they said they had to mount and sight in all the scopes first. I said I didn’t order a scope with it, da, and they promptly shipped it off to me without a scope. Not too professional if you ask me. Especially since they did not remind me.
    That’s why Pyramyd Air stands out above the rest.


    • Bob,

      🙂 I have had no dealings with A of A,… but have looked quite a bit at there higher end stuff. That is disappointing to hear. PA does not carry the really expensive stuff/brands. Second thought,… I am 99% sure my Maximus regulator came from them. No issues there.

      And hey,… don’t bust your internet budget on us!!!!! Mine ain’t the best, but it comes through the land phone line. I only use a cell, so that’s all the land line is used for. DSL???,… or is it ABC?,… maybe XYZ? Your not too computer literate?,.. I am less so. I have Century Link,… which is now Embark,…. which is now Spectrum,… or do I have that backwards??? Yea,…. in all of that,…. I am pretty sure that they are (not) looking out for my best interests.


      • Chris
        I accidently ordered a 2 hour Free pay per view movie through Dish and of course they send it through MY computer satellite dish service and transfer via Wi-Fi to their box. It cost me a weeks worth of my monthly internet allowance. Wi-Fi to the TV is now disabled !
        My computer is so slow most of the time I can’t really tell when they slow down my service after using up all my monthly service any way so I never purchase additional time …. Country life !


      • Internet through a phone line is DSL (digital signal line). The speed is usually 3 mbps to 10 mbps (megabits per second). Spectrum is cable and usually through fiber optics. The speeds are 30 mbps to 100 mbps. If you have decent DSL through you phone line you are luckier than those using satellite internet.

        BTW, if anyone wants to check and verify they are getting the speeds they are paying for, use speedtest.net and run a test. It will check you download and upload speeds.

        I have had people complain to me about how slow their computer is. Often I find the problem is not with the computer, it’s from the slow connection speeds they are getting to the internet.


  18. Nova Freedom PCP

    Halfstep
    I tested the force required to operate the hand pump and my ‘ precision ‘ 😉 bathroom scale added another 20 pounds to the weight when I pumped it. It starts out easy and peaks at about half way then finishes the rest of the way easy going into an over center condition pulling the pump handle down into the rifle. That was at the 3,000 psi level. Any increase in additional force required throughout is not that great.

    It’s a long swing, see Archer in his site pic., and can get tiring from empty but hopefully you should only have to do that once. Once we find out about my leak down situation we should know better.

    That much work will tire out anyone but I think any average adult sized person can handle it. Especially if they get creative in the procedure. But remember this is a heavy rifle to begin with and they might not be comfortable shooting it anyway. Unsupported anyway. If you can push, pull or lift 20 lbs. with one hand you should be good to go.
    I would not consider it a “Fun Gun” for everybody. It’s a handful in both respects, especially with a scope on it.
    Bob M

    I woulds


  19. Half
    Glad I can help. I don’t get to offer too much technical advice here. I don’t tinker and tune for improvements for the most part, OK perhaps a lot of exterior modifications, but you guys and BB certainly have educated me about airguns …..

    Thank you right back!
    Bob M


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