by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
AirForce Edge
This report covers:
- Back to the Edge
- Changeover
- Muzzle extension replaced
- HOWEVER
- Loud!
- RWS R10 7.7 grains
- H&N Finale Match Rifle
- RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle
- Discussion
- Shot count
- What now?
- Summary
I didn’t write today’s report about the AirForce Edge for anyone in particular, but I do know that reader William Schooley coaches a youth marksmanship program and, if I remember right, he likes the Edge. I also know that reader RidgeRunner likes them a lot.
Back to the Edge
I reported on my AirForce Edge last May, so it’s been awhile. I said at the start of that report that I traded for the rifle because I always wanted to own an Edge. I own a Crosman Challenger PCP that I enjoy, and the Edge is its closest competitor. Both were created for junior marksmen to learn competitive target shooting and also to compete at the local to national level.
These two rifles are the main reason the Daisy 853 has vanished from the market, as they effectively replaced it. That is a whole story of its own that I have told several times and will again if there is enough demand. But today I begin testing my Edge for the purpose for which it was designed. Read parts 1 through 3 to see what can be done to hotrod an Edge, if you are interested.
Changeover
The Edge had a custom-made plenum that held more regulated air, plus it had an 18-inch barrel. It was shooting at just over 12 foot-pounds, or about double what it should. The last stock Edge I tested was back in 2010 and that one shot a rifle target pellet in the 480s and a pistol pellet in the 520s. I had not tested a stock rifle since then, so today will be a day of discovery. But first, that plenum had to be removed. Here is what had to be done to turn it back into a target rifle.
0
The plenum (silver part) that Lloyd Sykes installed turned the Edge from a target rifle into a respectible plinker and pest gun! It has to come off.
Muzzle extension replaced
The Edge I got in trade has a beautiful anodized aluminum silencer with baffles. It’s permanently installed inside the muzzle extension — where the front sight is attached. There is no way to attach the front sight with the silencer installed so I was going to heat it up and drive the silencer out, but after examining the workmanship Lloyd Sykes put into it I decided to buy a replacement extension. I was stunned that AirForce only charged me $9.95 for the part. I may have been given dealer pricing and you might have to pay $13.50, but still!
Lloyd Sykes internal silencer (left) was so well done that I simply replaced the part and kept that extension as is.
When I picked up the new part at AirForce they apologized that the color wasn’t an exact match to my serial number 10 extension that was produced over a decade ago. Imagine that! That is one of the benefits of being red-green colorblind. Please don’t adjust your screen. I am aware the two parts don’t look exactly the same — and what colorblind target shooter cares?
HOWEVER
There was more to the job than I envisioned at first. When I removed the plenum I discovered that Lloyd had moved the rear parts of the firing valve to the rear of the plenum, rendering the valve that was in the rifle’s tank unworkable unless it was rebuilt. I happened to have an original Edge valve on hand from a generous blog reader (thank you, Gene) so I simply replaced it in the rifle’s tank and left the plenum built up as it was. All together it took about an hour to turn the rifle back into a target rifle. But, would it work?
Loud!
Yes, it did work on the first shot, but I got a surprise. Lloyd’s silencer was really effective because the little target rifle now barked loudly at me! I guessed this new valve was hotter than the original I had tested back in 2010, so the remainder of this report will be a velocity test of my new/old target rifle.
Not knowing exactly what to expect I selected three pellets to test. As it turned out, my choices worked well. I selected all wadcutter pellets because when the rifle is in the target configuration they are all I will shoot.
RWS R10 7.7 grains
The first pellet I tested is one that’s not available any longer. It’s an RWS R10 target pellet that weighs 7.7 grains. Ten of them averaged 621 f.p.s., so we see that I wasn’t mistaken. The stock Edge valve I installed in the gun is running quite a bit hotter than the stock valve I tested in 2010. It’s in the same velocity range as the vintage 10-meter target rifles of the 1970s. That also probably means the shot count per 3,000 psi fill will be lower than the 107 shots I got in my 2010 test. I will test that after I have completed testing the three pellets.
The velocity spread went from a low of 616 to a high of 624 f.p.s. That’s a spread of 8 f.p.s., so the regulator is still doing its job. At the average velocity this 7.7-grain pellet generates 6.6 foot-pounds, so it is on the warm side of where it should be. I am so pleased that my rebuild of the tank went as it was supposed to.
H&N Finale Match Heavy
The second pellet I tested was the H&N Finale Match Heavy, which weighs 8.18-grains. Ten of them averaged 623 f.p.s. with a 10 f.p.s. spread that went from 618 to 628 f.p.s. Heavier and also faster? They must fit the bore looser.
At the average velocity this pellet developed 7.05 foot-pounds. That makes this Edge a little screamer, though velocity in a target rifle is meaningless after you pass about 425-450 f.p.s.
RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle
As a final test pellet I chose the RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle wadcutter that weighs 8.2 grains. While I was writing this report I realized how close the last pellet was to the Finale Match Heavy. This pellet averages 611 f.p.s. from the Edge. The spread went from 607 to 619, so a difference of 9 f.p.s. That makes all three pellets pretty close in their velocity spreads. At the average velocity this pellet generated 6.8 foot-pounds at the muzzle.
Discussion
Well the Edge is back to being a 10-meter target rifle, but it’s a hot one — especially for 2020. Maybe not back in 1970, but today’s 10-meter rifles are coming in at around 575 for the purpose of air conservation. And, speaking of that, let’s check the shot count now. My guess is I will get 50-60 shots on a fill.
Shot count
I filled the rifle yesterday and fired three pellets before this test began to test the success of the valve exchange, so there are now 33 shots on the fill. I will use the 7.7-grain R10 pellet that was tested first. The low for that string was 616 and the high was 624 f.p.s.
Shot…….Vel
34………645 wow!
35………627
36………629
37………626
38………627
39………624
40………629
41………632
42………629
43………631
44………627
45………624
46………617 off the reg!
45………610
46………601
47………591
48………589
I stopped there because it’s obvious the rifle fell of the reg at shot 46 If you don’t understand why it is possible for me to say that I will explain, but if not I won’t. So there are about 45 shots per fill at this velocity.
What now?
The next thing to do is to slow rifle rifle down. I want at least twice as many shots per fill, which would be 90. A men’s match is 60 shots and I like to allow at least 10 shots for checking the zero, so a cushion of 20 shots makes me comfortable.
I measured the top hat clearance (the part of the valve that makes contact with the hammer and also limits the length of travel of the valve stem) and found it to be 1.35mm or 0.053-inches, which is very short. An AirForce technical representative told me the clearance should be about 0.070-inches which is 1.778mm. There should also be three small o-rings under the top hat and there are none on this valve. I don’t think the power is coming from the top hat, but I could be wrong.
The only other explanation I can think of for the extra power is either the weight of the hammer or the strength of the hammer spring has been increased. Or perhaps both were done. They determine how long the valve remains open, which affects velocity and also consistency, shot-to-shot. I need to check some specs before I start changing things there, so for today the test is over. I have the Edge performing like a 10-meter target rifle again, but it’s a hot one that needs to be tamed just a little more.
Summary
I’m glad to be back working on the Edge again. It was always my plan to turn the rifle back into a 10-meter target rifle, though the excursion with the potential for power was eye-opening! Who knew you could do so much to such a weak PCP?
Once I get the rifle shooting like it is supposed to I plan to test it for accuracy and then I plan to re-test the Crosman Challenger and we will have a side-by-side comparison of the top two youth marksmanship target rifles in the airgun world.
BB,
I hope you are enjoying that bugger.
I made the baffles. They are only held in with two o rings, one at each end in grooves, making a snug fit. It can be pushed out, the sights reinstalled and then reinserted. They are painted, not anodized. A drop or two of silicone oil here and there may help it slide better.
Did you return the trigger to stock? If not and you wish to, let me know and I will walk you through it.
That valve is most definitely hot. Before we added the plenum it was getting over 100 shots per fill. With the plenum I was getting about 25. The hammer and spring have not been modified.
You can tame it down with o rings under the top hat. The o rings limit the amount the valve opens. Your gap is kind of small, but it is the dwell time of the valve that is giving you the power. The valve return spring may need to be tightened some to help close the valve faster.
I guess I am going to have to extend an invitation for another Edge to move into RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns.
RR,
Thank you for explaining the silencer. I didn’t try to remove it. I assumed it was epoxy-ed in. And the paint fooled me, as well.
I left the trigger as it was. It is too nice to mess with.
I did try an o-ring under the top hat of the new valve, but the power fell off to 270-330 f.p.s., so that was out. I do have another valve that has the o-rings under it, so I may install it and try again.
I will keep you informed.
B.B.
Bb
You need to try different thickness o-rings under the top hat. That will let you fine tune the power you want to make.
Oh and I wish you would of got a different Edge to mess with. RidgeRunner and Lloyd had that one set up nice. I’m sure it could go back the way that they had it fairly easy. But hate seeing it taken apart. Just my opinion. Glad you let the trigger alone anyway. Onward we go.
GF1,
I have been careful to keep all the parts needed to put it back where it was. But I wanted a stock Edge and this one was the first and only one to come along. I had to give up something I thought I would never part with to get it, so it came dear.
B.B.,
BB,
“I had to give up something I thought I would never part with to get it, so it came dear.”
So did I. 😉
RR,
I know! And I appreciate it.
B.B.
BB,
I surely appreciate the Senior hanging there with the Service MK II. Nice set.
RR,
I’m glad she has a good home.
B.B.
🙂
BB
But it wasn’t stock. I still think it was a wrong move for the gun. That gun should of been left alone.
And I’m sure you didn’t want to part with your guns either. But still think the Edge should of been left alone.
GF1,
All of the modifications to this Edge were designed to allow it to be restored to original with minimal effort. It was my intention to play with this Edge and see what I could do with it and if my grandson should desire to participate in 3D Sport I could restore it to original in about an hour for him to use.
You did notice that he did not touch the trigger. 😉
RR
Notice I said at least BB left the trigger alone.
And yep I said I’m sure it could be put back the way you had it. The way I see it is when something is working good you leave it alone. Like how the Edge was.
Gunfun1,
So RR and Lloyd made it into a “Sharp Edge,” eh? ;^)
Those velocities are about what I get from my Feinwerkbau 300s, but if I recall your 300s is hopped up a bit past that.
Michael
Michael
I like the velocity it’s making now also after BB changed it around.
But right now it’s still not a stock Edge like BB wanted for a test.
I bet its much louder than a factory Edge now also.
So basically whatever tests BB does right now is not truly representing a factory Edge. You see what I’m getting at here with what BB is trying to do.
I always thought that the rifle pictured was my best option to have a rifle that matched my truck. Plenty fo wow factor in the looks department and upgradable performance. Are there after market cheek pieces to use if scope mounting is desired?
Carl
Carl,
The Edge cheekpiece adjusts up and down and may be all that you need. I’m not aware of any aftermarket parts for the Edge, but a cheekpiece shouldn’t be too hard to make.
B.B.
Coduece,
No Talon or Condor? They come in colors too,… ya know? 😉
Good Day to you and to all,……… Chris
BB
What sort of gun was the R10 pellets meant for? I know that the 7 grain is billed for pistols and the 8.2 grain is billed for rifles currently. Where did the 7.7 fit in?
Half
Half,
The 7.7-grain R10 was the old heavier pellet. RWS just made it even heavier when they revised it. So, it was meant for air rifles the same as the newer heavier pellet.
B.B.
B.B.,
I never realized until now how big a factor the size of the plenum supplying the air is on the velocity produced by a PCP. I realize this is a regulated PCP. Would this be a factor in an unregulated PCP?
Siraniko
PS: Intro First sentence I didn’t write today’s report about the AirForce Edge for anyone in particular, but I do know that reader William Schooley coaches a youth marksmanship program and, if I remember right, he like (likes) the Edge.
Siraniko,
Fixed it. Thanks.
A plenum isn’t nearly as big a factor for a non-regulated airgun. Monday I will have a small surprise for everyone that touches on this subject.
B.B.
B.B.,
Glad I read this on my tablet instead of my phone!
I saw your reply so I will keep quiet…for now. I look forward to reading your, Small Surprise, blog.
In H&N Finale Match Heavy
“At the average velocity this pellet averaged (gave/put out/laid down/threw down/provided {your choice}) 7.05 foot-pounds.” Can’t average twice with the same average….
Also looking forward to the Grudge Match Blog! Tom’s 10 Meter Shootout at High Noon!
shootski
shootski
BB ,
That will be an interesting article on the Challenger vs. Edge .
They are both good guns , I have always had a soft spot for the Edge . I am a fan of the ruggedness of Air Force guns. There is more to go wrong in a Challenger and also harder to repair. Just like everything in life it comes down to personal preference . I enjoy plinking with my 10m guns , within 20 yards those empty 12 gauge hulls better watch out !!
Could we get an Air Arms T200 in that comparison? It’s the other 10 meter gun that seems to be common.
Gene,
Take some spent CO2 capsules, screw an eye bolt into the end, paint them orange and hang them up with some string. They make great little plinking spinners.
Well, PA has the Meopta scopes. You had better bring a fat wallet.
/brands/meopta?mid=402
Meopta!
Anybody out there have an Edge they want to get rid of?
RidgeRunner RidgeRunner what are we going to do with you. Another Edge.
GF1,
Why of course. Of all of the many .177 PCP air rifles on the market, I would choose it over all others. There is so much you can do with it. Stock it is a superb 3D Sporter. With not much effort I can change it into an entry level precision 10 meter air rifle. I can then turn it into a WFT air rifle. I can then turn it into a 12+ FPE hunter. Then I can change it back to a 3D Sporter.
Rr
Sounds like you really wasn’t ready to get rid of the one you had.
And yes that’s what the AirForce guns can do.
I was going to try a .22 caliber barrel in my .25 Condor SS but it just shoots too good to take the chance with another barrel. It’s not getting touched.
GF1,
LOL! That is what happens most often with air rifles that you can change calibers easily. Many people just buy another one in a different caliber.
Now, to me AF guns are so great because they can be adapted to my changes. Right now I have been doing a lot of shooting with the old gals around here. Almost all of these are meant for 10 yard shooting.
When the weather gets warmer and the days get longer I will likely feel the urge to do some long range shooting. Out comes the HM1000X.
The Edge is capable of going with me and changing as I do. I was just beginning to explore the longer ranges with the Edge. The last time I shot her was at 50 yards and I had a 10 shot group that measured .8″.
I had also had a couple of ideas I wanted to try out on her. I was looking for an 18″ barrel and was preparing to see about adjusting the regulator up a bit. If I could manage to do that, I could reduce the size of the plenum and lengthen the air reservoir. I also had some ideas concerning the butt stock, cheek rest and pistol grip.
What is real cool is everything I was doing did not modify any of the stock parts, allowing me to return it to an awesome 3D Sporter in just a little bit.
No, I did not want to get rid of my Edge. But BB did not want to get rid of his Webley Senior either. Both of us also know that the other will take good care of the air gun we parted with. We also know that should either decide to get rid of the airgun (yeah, right) the other will want it back and will be given first dibs.
You are missing out on so much with not playing with that Condor SS. The versatility of these air rifles are incredible. With these new “slugs” coming out you need an unchoked barrel.
https://www.lothar-walther.com/gun-barrel-blanks/airgun-barrels/
You can always put it back to original. 😉
RR
I’m having too good of results out at longer distances with my .25 Condor SS. Just can’t take the chance of screwing it up.
I keep debating getting a .30 caliber but I really already shoot out at the distance I have to shoot with my .25 Condor SS. I right now can turn my Condor SS up more for even longer distances but I have a good balance of power and shot count right now. Plus I know my hold overs real well with it so don’t want to mess that up either.
I’m afraid if I go .30 caliber or need to shoot out farther than 250 yards I will get another gun that will probably be specific for that type of shooting.
I kind of want to do something just to experience it. But the need isn’t there right now. Oh and I still would like to get one of the Wingshot air shotguns. That will probably be my next big gun move if I do something.
GF1,
You are not going to mess things up. Talk to BB. He does it all of the time. You are missing out by not getting an unchoked barrel.
RR
Nope not even going there.
The gun works too good.
Cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck.
RR,
I never,.. ever,.. thought I would see the day when ol’ GF1 would (not) jump all over an upgrade to better accuracy and reaching out further. Heck,… you make it sound so easy,…. that now you got me a thinkin’. 😉
Then again,… the “slug wars” are just getting ramped up good. Maybe I will just sit on the sidelines for a while longer to see what shakes out.
Chris
RR
I still got mine and I know it works. 😉
And remember I have had about 4 AirForce guns. I know how they work. And I know the barrels don’t go out and back in the same. Yes they are easy to change but no they don’t repeat like you think they would. That means work as in shooting time work.
GF1,
LOL! I thought shooting time was the whole idea!
GF1,
LOL! I thought shooting time was the whole idea!
RR
Yes shooting time is what it is about.
But not refix it time. Not going to spend what time I have fixing something that already works.
That gun gets crossed off the list. Now a new gun. That’s another story.
GF1,
Oh, I do understand. you have it tuned in and do not want to untune it.
RR
Right.
GF1,
Oh, I do understand. you have it tuned in and do not want to untune it.
😉
R.R.
Yes I feel the cheek piece could be more versatile as well as the addition of an accessory rail out front for a bi-pod or whatever.
Carl
Carl,
Are you talking about the Edge? I am not a big fan of the construction of the cheek rest, but I put a thin layer of foam under it on top of the reservoir and it works great now. It also has 11mm rails that run the length of it on top and bottom. You can bolt just about anything you want on one of these things with adapters.
B.B.,
I forgot to ask the other day; is the new CO2 Walther PPQ M2 genuinely semiauto? In more transparent terms, is the 20 round belt advanced by the blowback, or does the trigger accomplish that? If it isn’t genuinely semiauto, boy, it sure will be nice when a replica like that could be truly semi, like the Crosman 600 or Daisy 2003.
Gee, with a precision slo-flo valve and miniature HPA reservoir, that would be a replica that really cooked with gas!
Michael
Michael,
Usage ALERT!
“…is the new CO2 Walther PPQ M2 genuinely semiauto?”
Pistols are never Semi-Automatic only rifles! They are Single Action (SA), Double Action(DA), Single/Double Action (SA-DA), Striker Fired (SF) Automatics. Then there are the Machine Pistols.
And, I really don’t care what Wikipedia tries, confusedly, to say on the subject!
shootski
Shootski,
Aren’t there / haven’t there been gas-operated handguns?
For the record I meant all the mechanisms of the device are operated by gas or blowback. Only the release of a sear by the trigger, etc. (Be gentle with me — I have never fired a true firearm in my life. :^)
Michael
Michael,
Yes there are gas-operated firearms.
The discussion however, was what is Automatic and what is Semi-Automatic.
I was taught that the difference between Auto and Semi-Auto in long guns is that the Automatic loads and fires as long as the trigger is pulled and there is ammunition in the box, magazine, belt, or other storage system. The Semi-Automatic requires a pull of the trigger each time to shoot one round which is then reloaded awaiting another press on the trigger. The most known exception is the M-16 family of long guns which were modified to have a three round burst after initially being fully automatic, and the additional single shot capability which is called Select Fire.
In pistols (not revolvers) the convention I was taught is that if it fired a shot and then automatically loaded a round with every pull of the trigger it was an Automatic. If on the other hand it required a bolt, block, some other hand loading action after every shot it was not an Automatic Pistol. If it was a handgun that fired then loaded another round and repeated that cycle until the trigger was released or the ammo was a expended that was a Machine Pistol.
I hope that was gentle enough ;^)
Shootski
Shootski
My understanding for semi auto firearms, rifle and pistol operation is they are either blowback, recoil, or gas operated. Only the gas system seems applicable to air guns. Available on co2 pistols it seems to work well for that application why there aren’t any co2 rifles that are true semi auto and not double action ( trigger advances pellet) puzzles me is it lack of demand or cost? Is a co2 operation airgun more semi auto friendly because the pressure is naturally close to optimal for bolt operation? I’m guessing yes.
As far as h.p. airguns my guess is it’s cost prohibitive. It would probably require a separate regulator set to a lower pressure or a gas port like ar’s and ak’s that would limit design parameters as well as increase cost. Pure conjecture on my part. I did have the thought why not incorporate a co2 system on h.p. airgun just to cycle the bolt consistent optimal pressure easily hidden in the stock wouldn’t waste precious air. Just a thought not sure if anything I said is correct or of merit.
Coduece,
I understood every bit of what you wrote. I think most of those ideas could work but the Big IFas you pointed out is would it be able to sell. As far as the AR/AK gas operating system it certainly wouldn’t cause the carbon problem the Firearms are known for. I think we need a different Action/Operating system definition for airguns and not use the firearm definitions that have been completely confused through sloppy usage. I think he CO2 operating system has been tossed about before. Just as recently as the CO2/HpA cocked cross bow. I personally think a tap toward the end of the barrel would be most efficient since it is low pressure and basically waste air pressure. A knock-on effect would be noise reduction.
shootski
Shootski
Check out the FX Revolution. It has that tap as you call it at the end of the barrel.
Gunfun1,
I guess I could call it a gas block like on an AR, but it seems that calling it what it does makes sense.
Thank you for your good wishes. She is on the Ward now so the worst is behind us, the Good Lord willing! To Thi k we spend all that time on snow and ice with no serious falls and on a dry mild day a bad fall happens.
shootski
Shootski
Seems like that’s how it goes.
Maybe we dont realise that when we are in those bad conditions we are actually more aware of the situation. And when not we let our guard down so to speak.
Shootski
Thanks for your reply sometimes I post things for confirmation or to get educated by someone more informed. You’re right there at the top of the knowledge heap. It definitely can be a confusing topic and it’s one illustration of the difference between firearms and airguns.
Carl
Carl,
Thank you for that. I’m just happy to have found a forum like this one where the guy in charge is Special and his readership is too!
shootski
Shootski
What exactly are you trying to say about pistols.
And what exactly are you trying to say about rifles.
Most air guns that are called semi auto are really double action guns.
Just trying to understand what you mean.
Gunfun1,
As is often the case, I’m with you.
But you know firearms, and I know very little about those, except what I read. I think for guys like us though, the terms are getting blurred. Machinists like you and old professors like me prefer absolutely precise terms (and so does shootski).
“Semi-auto” and “auto” have become almost meaningless, over time, I guess, but “only” 90 years ago “automatic” was used to describe a certain Webley revolver that was “pull the trigger once, fire once”. These days I see the terms “select-fire” to mean what used to be called a machine gun. Pull the trigger, hold it down and “buuuurp!” twenty bullets have been fired. “Auto-loader” is used to mean one light trigger pull and the gun does almost all of the work and Burp! one shot fired. Another light trigger pull and repeat. The problem with “auto -loader” for me is that a fully auto rock-n-roll gun also auto loads,
All I know is my 1077 is fun to shoot, but it’s not semi-auto. Also, I am getting old.
Michael
Michael
I see what you mean.
Gunfun1,
Sorry. See my post above to Carl (Coduece) I agree with your statement. We need a better definition of Airgun operating systems and actions.
I will also say I’m currently major distracted. My wife took a fall and broke her wrist as a result the Orthopedic Doctor’s determined she had a lower back spine problem. We are at Walter Reed and she is in the early stages of recovery from a double surgical procedure to fix wrist and spine.
shootski
Shootski,
Prayers and well wishes for the wife to have a speedy and complete recovery!
Chris
Chris USA,
Thank you Chris.
She is on the Ward and we hope on the mend.
shootski
Shootski
Sorry to hear. I hope and pray all goes well.
Shootski,
I too am sorry to hear of your wife’s fall and broken wrist. The lower back spine problem sounds pretty serious. Hoping the surgeries went well and that her recovery is quick.
Geo
Geo791,
Thank you for your well wishes for my wife! We have been together for over 48 years; I’m not about to lose her now! She is a strong and fit woman who did well on the five hour two procedure surgery and looks to be released to a OT/PT facility on Monday.
God IS Good!
Thank you again,
shootski
Shootski,
Good to know, and prayer changes things. Prayers for her continued and rapid recovery. Oh, and BTW, my wife and I will celebrate 50 years on 7/11/20.
Geo
Geo,
Not many of us get to do that these days!
Especially when we have worked well as couples through most of those years.
I think I know some of the why;suspec you must know it too.
God makes all things possible, if we only know how to ask.
shootski
Shootski,
Wishing your wife a speedy recovery from her surgery. Considering her age she is fortunate it could have been worse. Prayers for her complete recuperation.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Thank you for your wishes for her recovery.
She ran rings around sixty year olds and will hopefully once again.
shootski
BB
Are they working on getting the posting straightened out. Getting kind of old. Usually they dont have this much problem. What’s it been now over a week.
GF1,
Still working on it.
B.B.
BB
What nice word could I say about technology right now. None.
Hah! GF1, It is a Royal (Family) pain, but what I do is post my comment, expect the silliness, and then I open a new window, which usually is A.-O.K, and then I close the old one. Once, however, that didn’t work for me, so your mileage may vary.
Necessity is the mother of invention. (Awesome band by the way. And I have two of Frank’s amps!)
Ah, progress, right GF1?
Michael
Yep right.
Folks,
I said a while back I would post some results when I received the .22 cal. FX slugs.
I started at 20 yards with my Marauder. It has an after market hammer forged barrel, if I remember correctly it is choked. At 20 yards the Marauder shot a 3 shot group of .67 inches obviously the FX slugs are not for my Marauder.
Next I got out my RAW HM1000x. I do not think it’s barrel is choked. At 20 yards it shot three shots in 0.18 inches so I moved the target out to 35 yards. At 35 yards the FX slugs made a five shot group of 0.26 inches. I have a hunch the RAW can do even better with the FX slugs. I can’t wait to give it a go at 100 yards.
The slugs were very hard to load in the Marauder with the simple bolt. I was afraid to use the handle and instead pushed directly on the bolt to seat the slugs. It was so hard I don’t think the slugs are practical in the Marauder. I will try some smaller slugs when I get some.
The RAW with the side lever made it much easier to seat the slugs. It still required significant force to seat the slugs in the RAW. I do not think there will be a problem with the RAW seating the slugs.
I did not try the slugs in a magazine with either gun. I will try them in the RAW next time I shoot it. My raw is significantly less accurate with pellets using the magazine. The slugs may be different.
Here is a picture of the target.
Don
Don,
Thank you for the update. Keep pushing it out there. Looking forwards to more updates.
Chris
Chris,
It is as easy, if not easier to change calibers with an AirForce gun than the most wondrous FX air rifles. The only “drawback” is it is a single shot.
RR,
“most wondrous”,…………. LOL! 😉 Are “we” being just a wee bit biased?
I do not know. The slug tech. is just getting hot. I think there is more to learn. I am not sure that I am ready to jump on board just yet. The cost of admission is something to consider as well.
I will say,… I do like the AF Texan, Talon, Condor and Edge (looks). They are different from anything out there. I like different. But,… I have been around long enough too to know that looks are not everything. Having spent more than enough $ on this hobby,… I am looking for some rock solid, proven performance. Serious competition wins being right up front in the criteria.
Chris
Chris,
Me?! Biased?! You bet. When an air rifle costs as much as they do, I expect them to be tack drivers right out of the box. As can be seen by BB’s recent test of the Dreamlite, it just ain’t so. My experience with one did not win me over either.
On the other hand, BB bought the S510.
RR,
I got that,… in spades. For the average duffer,… we look at competitions and what is being used and what wins. That shows what (can) be done. That is from the guys that pour milk on their bowl of pellet cereal every morning. The FX Impact is definitely hot now.
Competition is fierce,… to say the least. Those that do their homework,… and put it out there,… and win competitions,… and make it (well) known,… will be the winners.
I will say,.. with some hesitation,…. this is definitely a “fork in the road” for many makers. Step up or lag behind the leader.
Chris
Chris,
Most of these big competitions we are seeing out West were designed around the FX air rifles. This year at EBR a Gauntlet came close to toppling the big dogs. No, it was not stock, but neither are those Impacts and such.
I can take a .22 Maximus and make it shoot as well as any .22 Impact. I see almost as many used Impacts for sale as I do Maximus’.
There is a Chinese PPPCP that has been on the market now for a couple of years that I am seriously considering. It is good enough that the AV Avenger and the Umarex Invader are built from it. It is the Nova Liberty. There is a small but growing fan club for this air rifle. With Air Venturi and Umarex both putting their version of this air rifle out you are going to be seeing a lot more of this gal.
The underdogs are starting to step up and show us we do not have to spend thousands to have nice shooting air rifles. No, they are not the eye candy of Daystate and Air Arms, but they are capable of shooting with them. Even the Chinese are beginning to figure out how to build a good quality, reliable air rifle.
Speaking of Daystate and Air Arms, there will always be a place for such fine craftsmanship. Yes, it is going to cost. But as for me, though I want some nice eye candy such as these, I am not dragging something like this out into the woods with me.
Just so you know, there is no leader to lag behind. There are quite a few successful airgun companies out there. The reason is they have found a niche. The only “leaders” are the big conglomerates that have enough bucks to buy up the competition and offer a wide range of products.
Thank goodness there are still some holdouts like Weihrauch. They are able to offer serious competition in their quality and price range. I have shot quite a few sproingers over the years and there is nothing like shooting a top quality sproinger. Not even PCPs can top that experience.
Of course, all of this is my most humble opinion and each of us has one. I have a top shelfer and so do you. We know what can be done. That is what we are looking for. Even GF1 will not mess with his top shelf shooter. 😉
I think I am going to take a good quality low ender and see where I can take it.
Enough rambling.
RR,
I can not argue with anything that you said. My comment was aimed at shooting (slugs) in air guns successfully,… where as your comment seemed to cover everything else. Shooting slugs is what I was referring to being relatively new and still under development. It seems to be a matter of fit to bore, twist rate, fps required, choked or not, ammo weight, ammo shape,…etc., etc.. I am not sure anyone has that 100% nailed down yet.
I think a few are close. As far as a “leader” goes,… I was referring to slugs and competitions and wins and,… what (brand) pulls that off on a consistent basis. I think there is still more to be learned yet on the subject. Hence, my comment about remaining on the side lines awhile longer when considering a slug gun.
Chris
Chris,
Matt down in SA has been working with FX for a couple of years now. The big bores have been using them for years. It is worth you trying the JSBs in your Red Wolf. By the way, JSB makes the FX pellets and “slugs” .
RR,
Thank you. That is good to know. JSB’s have been the best in all my guns. That may just be my Spring time goal this year (after getting re-familiarated) with the arsenal after a few long Winter months off. Note made to check out my options.
Do you think it would be worth slugging the barrel to get a barrel size ID narrowed down? The slugs seem to have OD options is the reason I am asking. Maybe a sample pack?
Chris
Chris,
I myself would go with a sample pack unless you are comfortable with slugging.
RR,
The RW has an air stripper type device inside the shroud,.. attached to the barrel. Getting a pellet going at that end may be a challenge. That is with the shroud off too.
The other option is to shoot into a tube (4″ PVC pipe) stuffed with pillow stuffing. I hear that works. 0% deformation would be the goal,… of course. I remember looking into it at one time. I would be very surprised to have it work with 100% lack of deformation of OD.
Chris
Chris,
With firearms they use water.
Perhaps you do not have to go all the way out. Push it most of the way and then back.
RR,
Water????? How does that work?
Chris
Edit: Shoot into water. Got it. It’s early. 🙁
RR,
Not sure you know of the Air Velocity YouTube channel, but you mentioned the Nova Liberty, so I thought that I would post this link to his channel. He has several videos referencing the ATI Nova Liberty. He also makes slugs and sells them on ebay. Also, he has some videos on the Yong Heng compressor.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGPuLw4384KuLzSkGSWLs2Q/airgun-video
Geo
Geo,
I have his channel bookmarked. Hajimoto has a couple of videos on it also. Hard Air Magazine did a review of it a while back. It seems that everyone who tries it sings it’s praises.
Benji-Don,
One hole group.
Nice shooting!
No sight-in just load and shoot?!?
MOA- or BUST! ;^)
shootski
Shootski,
Wishing your wife a full recovery, the back is a complicated structure. It sound like she is getting the best treatment.
Replies are not showing up on my email, guess it is associated with the new software.
I did not site my gun in, but did shoot 3 shots at 20 yards to see if it was on paper with the slugs.
I think the Raw is going to like the FX slugs for long distance.
Don
Benji-Don,
Thank you for your recovery wishes for my wife. Walter Reed is an outstanding hospital with a staff that has exceptional dedication to service and excellence.
Your slug experience is Interesting so far and I look forward to your future results at the longer ranges. I think if you have the clearance you will be stuck clearing beyond 100!
shootski
Don
That is nice in the RAW. I want to see 50 yards before the 100.
So is it leverage that is making the slug easier to load in the RAW or is it the fit to the barrel?
GF1,
I will have to wait for the snow to melt for 50 and 100 yards. The wait is killing me.
It is the leverage of RAW side lever that makes it easier as far as I can tell.
Don
Don
That’s kind of what I thought about the leverage.
How much snow are we waiting on to melt?
Whenever you get the results I’ll be happy to hear. 🙂
Not sure how much snow right now. I would say 2 to 3 feet.
Don
Sounds like you won’t be shooting for a while then.
Don,
That is sweet, .26 at 35 yards, is that better than the RAW does with its best pellets?
We will be looking for better weather for more testing, seems you were blessed with 70 degrees, it would be nice to see some chrony info and some different sized slugs, the Maurader seems to want the skinnier ones. LOL Unless these were the smallest and if you can swing it drop in some JSB slugs.
Mike
Mike,
I think the slug and pellet groups may be about the same at 35 yards. I usually shoot 10 shot groups so my pellet groups are a little larger. The FX slugs are a bit spendy so I am using them sparingly. I would say they are similar at 35 yards. Also with the RAW packing more energy and small groups I worry about damaging my trap. lol
I can shoot up to 42 yards safely in my backyard at home and 35 yards without rearranging stuff. We have a cabin at 6000 feet where I have all the range I want. I am building a permanent 100 yd range off the back porch. The cabin is snowed in right now. The slugs should do much better than the pellets past 50 yards, but you don’t know till you try them.
I ordered some H&N slugs in both 5.51 and 5.53 mm diameter only the 5.53’s were in stock and then the FX slugs came in and I changed the order to the FX slugs with the 5.53 H&N slugs. I won’t try the 5.53 in the Marauder but will try the smaller size when I get some. I expect the JSB slugs to be very good.
The Marauder is backyard friendly the RAW is borderline. I try not to push the good will of my neighbors too much.
I have heard the slugs don’t work well in choked barrels. I also think a barrel made for slugs should have a leade that allows the slug to be inserted with no effort and then a probe that pushes it all the way into the rifling. On both of the guns the slug required significant effort when it still had about 1/3 of it outside of the leade. That seems to have a potential to deform the slug. I did not notice any shavings from the slugs in either gun though.
Don
I had this on my mind after the recent blog about caliber choice and the talk about slugs.
What would you do if you couldn’t get your guns favorite pellets anymore.
No more JSB’s or AirArms pellets and H&N will be next that wont be available.
So now you got to shoot pellets that dont group like you know your gun is capable of doing. Will you just shoot the pellets that dont shoot as well. Of would you consider to not shoot at all since you can’t get the results you want with the other pellets.
And you dont think that will happen. I hope your right is all I can say.
Maybe we are kind of spoiled right now.
GF1,
When I was a kid the only pellets available were Benjamin and Crosman. The Benjamin’s were better but not great. So I tuned my gun based on the number of pumps for the pellet. Also after a thousand pellets the gun seems to adjust to the pellet. We have talked about that before. I was able to make some remarkable shots back then. One gun one pellet. I think we are spoiled.
Say we only can get one pellet, that may change which guns are the best. Some of the cheaper guns may win out. Fun to think about but it looks like more and better pellets and now a bunch of slugs conning on the market.
Worst case I would be casting my own, did that for a long time with black powder muzzle loaders. .50 caliber was not too tough I think .22 would be hard and take a lot of practice.
Don
Don
Casting or swedging pellets would probably be the way I would go too.
For me since I have the machining background I would probably go with swedging or swaging or whatever it’s called. I say that because I could make the die and not have to worry about melting the lead. And I do remember we talked about swaying in the past. I offered to make a set for BB once. Don’t remember what he was shooting at the time. But would definitely be something I could do.
Gunfun1,
I’d find a way. Right now it is not fiscally responsible for me to use JSB pellets which perform very well in my airguns. They cost too much for casual plinking. So its dry-firing and using locally made resized pellets which give me acceptable accuracy. I just have to get closer to the target.
Siraniko
Siraniko
Well that’s a thought. Get closer to the target.
I think we take our shooting for granted more than we realize.
I have some secondary pellets I’ll call them that work pretty good. And they are cost effective for plinking. I just hope I will always be able to get the pellets I know work.
I know that this may be off topic, but weren’t you going to review a wingshot? I, for one, would be interested in that.
Thanks.
Bill
Bill
Heres a report BB did.
/blog/2015/10/shooting-the-air-venturi-wing-shot-air-shotgun-part-1/
The custom plenum that converts the Edge to 12fpe. Is this item available for purchase?
Alejandro,
Welcome to the blog.
No. the plenum is not available.
B.B.