by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
AirForce Edge.
This report covers:
- Behind the curtain
- Field measurements
- Test
- Low velocity
- Different valve
- H&N Finale Match Heavy
- RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle
- Shot count
- Short on air?
- Hammer spring
- What else have I learned?
- Summary
Today is unusual because I’m doing a back-to-back report on the AirForce Edge. I don’t normally do that, but I discovered some very interesting things that will probably help a lot of you with precharged pneumatic airguns of any kind. Also, I got into this project and just couldn’t stop until it was finished. I know you know what that’s like. Let’s get to it.
Behind the curtain
There were several things I did not tell you in Part 4 last Friday. I did them then, but the results were outside the scope of the report, so I held off. Today they will make a lot more sense.
Field measurements
First, let me show you how precise measurements can be done in the field without gauges. When I worked at AirForce Airguns I tested and adjusted all the valves for their rifles. Over the course of three years I worked on several thousand valves.
Things were simpler in those days as there were fewer models and therefore fewer types of valves to build. There were standard valves for the Talon and TalonSS and Hi-Flo valves for Condors. Each valve had its “top hat” — the adjustable piece that connects the valve stem to the hammer — and it had to be adjusted to a precise height. That height affects the length of time air can flow through the valve and we had a specification for the top hat clearance for each valve. Besides that the valve return springs were adjusted to a specific amount of force when the valves were built. The combination of those two things determined the power range of the rifles, but you have to remember that these rifles also have external power adjustment wheels, too, so a balance had to be maintained.
When I tested the valves I adjusted the top hat clearance for each one with a feeler gauge, which is a precise way to do it. But if I was under the gun to set up a gun for testing, or if a customer was sitting in the office, waiting to take delivery of his gun that had been repaired, I could also adjust the valves with coins. New coins are very uniform and it wasn’t long before I learned which one to use for which valve. Instead of walking into the repair shop and searching for the feeler gauge I could stick the right coin under the top hat and tighten it against the coin. That would get me to within a couple thousandths of the specified measurement, and that was within the acceptable tolerance.
So last Friday when I changed the valve on this Edge I noticed that the top hat of the new valve I was installing seemed too low. I didn’t have a feeler gauge to measure the gap, so I used an American dime. I used a new dime that had no wear. It fit the gap tight. A dime has a thickness of 1.35mm or 0.053-inches. According to AirForce the clearance should be 0.070-inches.
This gap under the top hat determines how long the valve stays open.
A new American dime fits into the top hat gap, determining the clearance quite well. This is too tight for an Edge valve.
Test
Once the new valve was in the tank I tested it. I got the numbers you saw last Friday. At around 620 to 630 f.p.s. the gun was shooting about 100 f.p.s. too fast. As you saw, that additional velocity reduced the shot count from over 100 to 45 shots per fill. That was unacceptable, so I tried another field fix. I put an o-ring under the top hat. That both reduces the valve stem travel distance as well as adding a little rebound to the valve, to make it close faster.
An o-ring fits into the gap under the top hat.
Low velocity
When I tested the velocity with the o-ring in place here is what I got.
Shot…….Vel.
1………..234
2………..243
3………..243
4………..301
5…………324
6………..341
7………..329
8………..337
I stopped at this point. Seeing the numbers rise in the beginning, I was hoping they would rise to where I wanted them — in the low 500s. But as you can see that didn’t happen. So, using an o-ring with this valve wasn’t the solution.
I learned from talking to the AirForce representative that the original Edge valve does have three o-rings under the top hat. That was news to me, because in my day at the factory we didn’t put o-rings there. I did in my own guns, but that was a private thing the owners of AirForce guns did back in the early years of this century.
Different valve
I had a second spare Edge valve that had two o-rings in the gap and I wondered if that valve would work. Then I read the date code on each of the three air tanks — the one that came with my rifle and the two spares that Gene sent me. My rifle is serial number 10 and its tank has a production date of October, 2009. One of the two tanks with holes drilled in them (for trade shows, where you cannot have guns that can fire) was also dated October 2009. The other one with the valve that has the two o-rings is dated January 2012, which is a little over two years later, when the Edge was in full rate production. Not only does it have the o-rings that the other two valves don’t have, there are also different parts inside the valve. So changes were made to the design from the very early days to the days of high-rate production.
The day after doing Friday’s test I swapped valves again and installed the one with the o-rings in my rifle’s tank. When I fired the first shot I could tell that it wasn’t as loud as it had been the day before. Let me show you the first few shots. These are with the 7.7-grain RWS R10 pellets.
Shot…….Vel.
1………..DNR — first shot to test that the valve functions
2………..540
3………..547
4………..535
5………..527
6………..531
7………..528
8………..532
As you can see, the velocity dropped off after the first couple shots. I think that represents the new valve settling in, because some of the parts came out of the valve when I swapped it and had to be put back inside. The Edge valve is made differently than the other AirForce smallbore valves and doesn’t stay entirely together when it comes out of the rifle. The parts in the rear of the valve are held in place by the regulator.
Following the first 8 shots that I thought had settled the valve down, I shot the first string with ten more of the 7.7-grain R10 pellets. Here is what I got.
Shot…..Tot. Shots…..Vel
1…………9…………524
2………..10…………528
3………..11…………521
4………..12…………524
5………..13…………527
6………..14…………523
7………..15…………526
8………..16…………528
9………..17…………521
10………18…………521
The average for this string was 524 f.p.s. The range went from a low of 521 to a high of 528 f.p.s. — a spread of 7 f.p.s. At the average velocity this pellet produced 4.7 foot-pounds of energy. It was a little slower than I thought after the first 8 shots, but it’s still quite good.
This is right on for an Edge. When I tested a factory gun back in 2010 I got the same velocities from a 7.56-grain pellet. I shot the string above immediately following the first 8 shots, and that will become important in a moment.
I’m keeping track of the total number of shots on the fill. That way we can get a shot count at the end of the testing.
H&N Finale Match Heavy
H&N Finale Match Heavy pellets were tested next, but there was a 10-minute paused between the end of the last string and the start of this one. I’m telling you that for a reason that will become clear in a moment. Let’s see what happened.
Shot…..Tot. Shots…..Vel
1………..19…………535 — huh?
2………..20…………523
3………..21…………519
4………..22…………522
5………..23…………521
6………..24…………519
7………..25…………519
8………..26…………510
9………..27…………516
10………28…………520
11………29…………525
12………30…………536 — nailed it!
This is a string of 12 shots, because of the higher velocity of the first one. Notice that after that shot the velocity drops back down into the low 520s and lower. I noticed that and wondered whether, by leaving the rifle sitting for 10 minutes, it allowed more air to pass through the regulator. Remember the story of the slow regulators in the FX Dreamlite rifle and the Artemis PP700S-A PCP pistol?
If I was right about my theory and waited for some time before shooting the final shot, it would be much faster again, like the first one. I waited 12 minutes and then recorded a 536 f.p.s. shot. So, I have learned something valuable about this Edge and the valve that’s in it. The first shot after a long (10 minutes or longer) rest will be faster than the shots that immediately follow. As you can see, that is exactly what happened — twice!
If I disregard the first and 12th shots in this string, I have 10 that average 519 f.p.s. The low is 510 and the high is 525 f.p.s., so a spread of 15 f.p.s. That’s a little large for a regulated PCP, but of no consequence for a 10-meter target rifle, because the distance to the target is so short. At the average velocity for this string, this pellet produces 4.89 foot-pounds at the muzzle.
I am getting very comfortable with this rifle the way I now have set it up. Time to test it with the last pellet.
RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle
The RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle pellet is the final pellet I will test today. It weighs 8.2 grains, so it’s the heaviest one I’m testing. I waited 2 hours after the last string so I’m expecting that higher velocity first shot again.
Shot…..Tot. Shots…..Vel
1………..31…………525 — yep!
2………..32…………497
3………..33…………514
4………..34…………501
5………..35…………496
6………..36…………502
7………..37…………491
8………..38…………500
9………..39…………499
10………40…………499
11………41…………494
12………42…………508 — Oh oh! Theory failed!
The 10-shot string that falls from shot 32 to shot 41 averages 499 f.p.s. It ranges from a low of 491 to a high of 514 f.p.s. — a spread of 23 f.p.s. That’s pretty large for a regulated gun, so the Meisterkugeln Rifle pellet may not be the best pellet for the Edge in its target configuration. Shooting at a target will tell us that.
At the average velocity Meisterkugeln pellets developed 4.53 foot-pounds of energy.
My theory about the first shot being faster was spot-on, but I waited 13 minutes between shots 11 and 12, and shot 12 only registered 508 f.p.s. I would have predicted something in the 520+ f.p.s. region. Is the rifle running out of air? Or is my theory sort of right but not always?
Shot count
If the rifle is now healthy we should see something around 100 shots per fill. So here we go, shooting the 7.7-grain RWS R10 pellet whose average before was 524 f.p.s.
Shot…….Velocity
43…………523
44…………521
45…………518
46…………517
47…………521
48…………514
49…………516
50…………525
51…………520
52…………526
53…………516
54…………525
55…………527
56…………522
57…………527
58…………526
59…………526
60…………525
61…………526
62…………519
63…………519
64…………535 Sign of nearing the end of the string
65…………523
66…………523
67…………519
68…………514
69…………503
70…………494
71…………481
72…………478
There is a lot to learn from this string. First, you can see that the rifle fell off the reg after shot 67. Shot 68 went out at 514 f.p.s. and all subsequent shots were slower. But wait just a minute! Shot number 48 was also 514 f.p.s. Why do I say that wasn’t the place where the rifle fell off the reg? I say it because the shots that followed that one all went faster, so the reg was still operating.
Next, look at my comment after shot 64. When I saw that out-of-profile faster shot I knew the rifle was nearing the end because that’s what often happens when the air pressure drops. I see it all the time in unregulated guns — though this is the first time I can remember seeing it in a regulated gun. That tells me something is still not right with this Edge. And that fact gives me the next discussion point.
Short on air?
Why is this Edge giving just 67 shots on a fill when the one I tested in 2010 gave over 100 shots at very similar velocities? I think more is wrong with the rifle than just the valve. I think either the hammer spring has been replaced or the hammer — or both! I said that at the end of Part 4 and RidgeRunner assured me that the hammer and spring had not been modified. But what if they were changed before he got it from my late friend Mac? What if someone had modified them before? One way to tell is to pull the barrel and remove both parts for a look, so I did. And, what to my wondering eyes should appear…?
Hammer spring
The hammer spring is from a Talon rifle; it’s not an Edge mainspring at all. An Edge spring is just two inches long and coiled around a special piece of plastic. And the hammer that came out of the rifle is even worse!
Hammer
The hammer in this rifle is a steel affair. It’s obviously homemade. AirForce would never turn out a part this crude! The Edge hammer is lightweight plastic. This thing weighs way too much!
The mainspring is from a Talon or TalonSS. The hammer is just a piece of steel tubing that’s been cut to fit. It’s too crude to be an AirForce part, plus it’s way too heavy and wastes air.
When I replace these parts with the genuine items I bet we will see a change in performance. I know I will feel better, now that heavy hammer is no longer beating the valve apart.
I will say this, souping the rifle up to shoot faster had no negative effect on the reg. As long as the tank was not filled above 3,000 psi, the reg was operating in its ideal design environment. Some PCP owners think if they overfill their reservoirs they will get more shots per fill and that is true — until the regulator that wasn’t designed for that higher pressure gives up the ghost.
What else have I learned?
Discovering these bogus parts changes everything. I thought this rifle was too loud for an Edge, once the silencer was removed. It turns out the noise was caused by the powerplant wasting 40 percent of the available air. That is what the homemade heavy hammer and the too-strong mainspring get you.
Summary
There is more work to be done on this airgun, followed by a retest. I bet we see a marked difference when the rifle is completely stock.
After I have tested the Edge in its original configuration I plan to re-test the Crosman Challenger PCP and then do a comparison between the two rifles. This series is like an historical one with the exception that both of the subject rifles are still being made and sold.
BB,
A fine bit of detective work there! Of course, it also helped that you worked at Air Force at one time too. Hopefully everything will pan out just fine in the end.
Good Day to you and to all,….. Chris
Chris,
Back to slugging. You could remove the barrel and push the pellet from the breech end. When the pellet clears the muzzle you can hold the barrel vertically and shake lightly and the pellet will find it’s way through the baffles. That will also tell you whether the barrel is choked or not.
Chris,
‘nother thought. If you pull the barrel you can measure the breech with calipers. Cleaning the barrel will tell you if it is choked.
BB,
Wow, I did not know they had been swapped out. Everything had worked fine so I did not pull them out. Also, there are definitely some differences in the valves as the original one before the plenum was added gave me over one hundred shots before going off the reg.
Still broke. This bunch should be fired. They are definitely not doing what they are paid for.
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RidgeRunner,
It’s working fine on my end. Just takes longer to post, about several minutes after clicking post. I usually read something else on another tab of my browser and when I click back it’s already posted. No additional steps necessary.
Siraniko
Spoke too soon. Now it’s misbehaving again!
Siraniko
RR
Agree.
B.B.,
Now I’m curious regarding its performance when RidgeRunner was testing it with Lloyd, before they installed the plenum. They didn’t notice anything amiss at that time?
Siraniko.
Siraniko,
To notice something amiss you would have to know what a standard Edge operates like, and this is perhaps the only one they ever saw.
On the other hand I was involved in the testing of the Edge before it was brought to market, so I have a lot more experience with one. I also tested a stock Edge for the blog in 2010. That gave me the perspective I needed to see that this rifle wasn’t performing as it should.
B.B.
BB and Siraniko,
It is indeed the only one I have ever seen. They are pretty rare critters around here. Where I live many tweenies end up with powder burners instead of airguns.
B.B.,
None of the previous articles from Part 1 to 4 have any links available. They are just text.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Good catch! This time it was me who was at fault. The new software doesn’t accept html in the way I’m familiar, so I have to link things as I’m setting up for publishing.
B.B.
BB
So is it acting like a factory Edge since you have the experience?
GF1,
No, it’s not. It should get more than 100 good shots, not 67.
The heavy hammer and over-powered spring are wasting air.
B.B.
BB
That’s what I’m getting at. You said you have the experience. But its not acting right.
So the changes you made still is not representing a factory Edge?
So how does it act now. Is it back to factory specs now?
I still say you should of left well enough alone. You should of got a factory gun if you wanted to test it for the readers.
GF1,
Have you read this report? I explain all of what you are asking.
And, if I wanted an 800 f.p.s. PCP I can choose from many. I wanted a 10-meter rifle with super ergonomics.
B.B.
BB
Funny and you got that one.
Do you think you will ever get it to shoot back at factory specs?
Sounds to me like you ruined a good setup and you stil don’t have a factory gun.
Right?
GF1,
I think by installing the factory spring and hammer it should go back to factory specs. That’s what I’m hoping.
B.B.
BB
We shall see.
Just the other day I was reading the blog from I think 2008 when AF was still in its infancy it seems. People were putting very heavy hammers on their air rifles with disastrous effects. The passionate comments were very interesting. B.B. showed pictures of the effects of these modifications very interesting. Tom could you post a link to this particular blog it might be of interest or value?
Carl
Carl,
In a way it did have somewhat “disastrous” results. The bolt handle “floats” in a slot of the bolt. There is an o ring that puts tension on the handle to hold it in one place. When the Edge is fired, the bolt will move without the handle moving and the bolt is then pulled back into position. You have to closely inspect this design to understand easily.
The stronger spring was applying undo pressure to the o ring and it eventually failed. No biggie. Easy to replace. But this explains the failure.
Carl,
I’ll see if I can find it.
B.B.
Carl,
Here you go:
/blog/2007/04/abusing-your-condor/
I saved that valve so that years later (like now) people couldn’t lie and say that was never done. I still have it.
B.B.
B.B.
Why did you remove the silencer?
Boy PCP’s are complicated! Give me the simple world of springers any day….
-Y
Yogi,
I removed the silencer because silencers can affect accuracy. I want to test the rifle in its stock configuration before I put the silencer back.
B.B.
I understand wanting to do a before and after comparison. Just why not test it first with the silencer and then test it without. Are you sure that you will be able to put it back in the exact same place. I would assume that even a difference of one thousands of an inch might make a difference?
-Y
PS you need to make spread sheet to shoot PCP’s…
Yogi,
You didn’t read closely enough. I bought a new muzzle extension so I didn’t have to remove the silencer.
B.B.
Yogi,
I guess you could call for a PCP Spreadsheet but I like to call it what shooters usually call it a Dope, Dope Sheet, or Shooting Databook. See: http://www.impactdatabooks.com/default.asp
That link is to a company that has a really great system that doesn’t need batteries or external power has as much ROM as you could want as well as easy peezy Random Accessible Data! I’m really think that the PCP needs to be used in a pick your ammo of choice, work up with CHRONOGRAPH then set and forget mode unless you are the type that learns a system 110+% and likes complexity.
So Springers are fun until you can’t find a hold/cheek weld that works.
shootski
Dope sheets are for the optic. This is for the darn rifle. How many shots in a fill? Does it fall off at 1200psi, 1800 psi, are those little gauges on rifles even accurate. That old adage, “know your rifle”, well with PCP’s the answer always is “depends”?
-Y
Yogi,
That may be what you were taught, but D.O.P.E. officially stands for:
Data On Previous Engagement(s)
Please help lower the amount of G.A.S. passed!
shootski
I was taught that DOPE was marijuana. Just Say No!
-Y
Yogi,
I guess you will never willingly come over to the Dark Side!
Can’t be Stoned and use one! Lol!
At least not well…
shootski
Shootski
I’m with Yogi on this one.
Information is information.
Yes a dope sheet needs made for how the gun performs.
Heck if you shoot a springer enough you learn how it performs in different instances.
Call it what you want but documentation needs kept to shoot a gun successfully.
B.B.,
Off-topic, but I just watched a segment on “How the Earth Works” (Season 1, Episode 2) on the Science Channel that featured NASA’s Ames Vertical Gun, which fires a small aluminum “BB” at roughly 75,000 feet per second. If the “BB” were 35 grams, what would the energy be?
When shot into fine silica sand the “BB” creates glass!
Michael
I want one!
How many pumps with a hand pump is that?
-Y
Yogi,
I think it uses percussion caps.
Michael
Michael,
Thirty-five grams is 540.13 grains. At 75,000 f.p.s. that mass generates 6,748,026.015 foot-pounds. They must be testing meteor strikes.
B.B.
B.B.,
Good call! Impact studies is what the Ames Laboratory (in California, not Ames, IA) is all about.
Michael
OFF TOPIC ALERT!
It looks like it is going to be a lot easier to get those Chinese pellets that BB likes.
https://hardairmagazine.com/news/qys-airgun-pellets-shown-for-first-time-at-2020-shot-show/
RidgeRunner,
I’ll take mine with extra Coronavirus, please.
Michael
Michael,
Do you not realize that the powers that be in China would consider that to be a racist remark? Just because hundreds of Chinese have died and thousands are ill from the Coronavirus does not mean we should shun any contact with them because of the chance of contracting this illness. We should welcome these ill Chinese into our homes and give them hugs and kisses.
The preceding was a paid advertisement of the Commie Chinese Tourism Industry.
RR
I disagree.
We should not.
GF1,
What?! Not take them into our homes?! What are you, a Republican?!
RR,
Conservative seems to be the safer bet. I am not so sure that either side are not as crooked as the day is long. It is just that 1 side has received a lot of long overdue bad exposure as of late (depending on what you watch and listen to). Then again,… they do a pretty fine job of “showing” themselves without anybody’s help at all. It takes a very strong stomach to stay up to speed.
Chris
Chris,
I am of the opinion that both sides are very crooked and corrupt. It is just that I have a strong distaste for communism.
RR,
Why not call it socialism,… or globalism? Pick your poison. Sounds “better” eh? LOL!,..not. 🙁
Not a Bernie fan,… I presume? 😉
Nuff said!,……… Chris 🙂
Chris,
In truth, Socialism is a more accurate term. Think Animal Farm. Everyone is equal. Some are more equal than others.
RR
I dont think I will answer that question. It could get ugly on my part.
And by the way. Are you a Republican?
Or maybe sometimes questions just shouldn’t be asked. You know what I mean.
LOL! It was not meant for you to answer. I truly apologize if I have offended you.
As for my political affiliation, I have none. I do not like any of them. Some are more offensive to me than others.
RR
No not offended at all.
I pretty much feel the same about politicians and not a big fan about China taking work from over here either.
That’s why I say it could get ugly on my end. BB would be getting out the yardstick and slapping the back of my hand probably pretty quick if I actually said what I thought.
You know what happens when we start talking politics here.
GF1,
Yeah, I know. I have to watch myself quite a bit. Sometimes a little leaks out.
RR
Right.
RidgeRunner,
Hmmm! That was a good one! You even shaved Gunfun1 with that slippery Madison Avenue style!
I needed a good laugh today!
Thank you,
shootski
Glad I could be of assistance!
Shootski
Glad you got all happy about that.
Some time back we learned on the blog that politics is usually a edgy subject. I usually try to stop the situation before it goes to that other step if you know what I mean.
Don’t know about you but I tend to bite my tongue here and there. You don’t want Ole Gunfun1 going off the edge. He has done that before and it’s not pretty. In more ways than one. 😉
Gunfun1,
Don’t make me Red Flag you now! Lol!
Bite, bite, bite, bite!
shootski
Shootski
At least you didn’t say black flag. 😉
Gunfun1,
Checkers only for you!
shootski
Michael,
In truth, I am indebted to you. You have reminded me that despite recent urges I have been having, I do not want to buy a Chinese airgun.
RR,
HAH! :^)
I have a few low-end BB and pellet guns that are made in china, and the quality varies a great deal.
For anything I expect to perform well, however, it’s American, German, British, Japanese, or in a few cases, Czech or Polish. I also try to keep resale value in mind and go for classics by classic makers.
Michael
It is just that I don’t want to support the commies any more than I have to.
RidgeRunner,
I just ordered a bunch for my new SIG Super Target. I used the SHADOW (expires tonight) to get free shipping and 13% off and let PA round up for the NRA! The wadcutters are on backorder but only a week or two tops! It may be that if China implodes because this pandemic goes nuts that we will find lots of things in short supply. And very quickly!
I think the the USA and the World might get some serious schooling on all this outsourcing. I got the basics covered and the knowledge to carry on; I hope I’m wrong and God protects the innocent!
shootski
I long for the implosion. Yes it will be rough, but I think it will be better in the long run.
RidgeRunner,
Look to the history of the Middle Kingdom…failure after failure for the very same reason. Overwhelming lack of Hubris every time they think they are on top! India has more suitable military aged men and women and will for the foreseeable future while China grows older by the minute paying a steep price for the one child policy that almost eliminated their childbearers! HUBRIS Writ Larger than Hollywood or Bollywood could ever imagine. I wasn’t certain it would come to pass in my lifetime but I’m almost positive it will as of the demographics released just this past year. The pandemic will just be a subscript to the Fall of the latest Middle Kingdom!
shootski
We can only hope.
Michael,
Wouldn’t you rather have one of these:
Shootski,
As for myself, I would have to ask why? If you don’t play it, it is just taking up space. I display my antique airguns, but I also shoot them. That is just a me thing.
RidgeRunner,
That is one of two guitars on the Walter Reed Hospital (WRNMMC) Ward that my lovely wife is on recovering from her double surgery. They were signed and presented by Alabama after being played on their 2003 Farewell Tour.
shootski
The guitar pictured is signed by ZZ Top.
Michael
Michael,
This is the other one:
Cool.
RidgeRunner,
I kept thinking about this comment of yours all day long in between taking care of my lovely wife’s needs and spirit. Yes, I shoot my Quackenbush pistols and rifles even though way to many of the folks lucky enough to call in, get picked in the lottery, bought one from him at an Airgun Show just put them in a safe as an investment. I figure that those folks will not be happier than me and I know that a rifle with a story or two based on usage and known owners to the Airgun community will be worth more is my guess.
But the guitars in those presentation boxes show the greatest LOVE and RESPECT by those bands and musicians honoring the Warriors and their families who paid the steep price and made sacrifices to garantee the LIBERTY and FREEDOM for the bands and musicians to play their music without worry!
I think that’s just plain USA grand!
shootski
Shootski,
I do agree that those particular guitars belong where they are.
I have actually thought about this subject in the past. To have an autographed guitar, I myself would somehow want to preserve the autograph on it and play it. It’s a me thing.
I have a friend who bought special guitar that was themed NASCAR and signed by Dale Earnhardt senior just a month before he was killed in the Daytona 500 in 2001. It is a beautiful guitar and, as I recall, he paid something like $4000 for it. After Dale’s passing I think it was valued at $8000+. I doubt he will ever part with it. My friend is, or was, a bit NASCAR fan.
Here is a photo of what I remember it looking like.
Geo
Geo,
I had a dude try to persuade me to buy a Nascar engraved Colt Python one time. No thanks.
B.B.,
I read things and my eyes glaze over. Even since I found your blog, you have dealt with hundreds if not thousands of variables related to air gun functioning.
I am dealing with one. Yesterday afternoon, I wanted to shoot the .177 Marauder a bit. However, it has an obvious leak. I tracked it down to the air pressure gauge. I have ordered a couple of new ones, although I have read of other possibilities (the gauge port assembly in particular).
I suspect the gauge, however. After I brought the two Marauders home, I could fill to 3000 PSI with the hand pump and the pressure gauge on the rifles showed right at 3000 PSI. This is still true for the .25 but the gauge on the .177 began showing off the charts; that is, the needle when past the red zone.
This seemed okay at first, although making determining air pressure became even more iffy.
I don’t know. The leak is audible. I’ll use the soapy water later today. I feel sure I should start with the pressure gauge and work from the outside in (hopefully, no need to go inside).
I understand the possibility of o-ring issues, but the gauge reading is what captures my attention first. I check with soapy water then depressurize (no getting around that). I may wait for the new gauges before I even check the fitting of the current gauge.
Any thoughts about the air pressure gauge needle going well past what the hand pump gauge reads (as I wrote, the reading on the .25 is still comparable to the hand pump gauge).
~ken
Ken
Its the gauge itself.
Let me know how it goes.
Its not the threads. Why because you said the gauge reading changed when filling.
Gunfun1,
Thank you. Well, I have placed an order for a replacement gauge. I suppose this will take care of the gauge and the threads, at least for a while.
Thanks,
~ken
Ken
I believe so.
B.B.,
I read things and my eyes glaze over. Even since I found your blog, you have dealt with hundreds if not thousands of variables related to air gun functioning.
I am dealing with one. Yesterday afternoon, I wanted to shoot the .177 Marauder a bit. However, it has an obvious leak. I tracked it down to the air pressure gauge. I have ordered a couple of new ones, although I have read of other possibilities (the gauge port assembly in particular).
I suspect the gauge, however. After I brought the two Marauders home, I could fill to 3000 PSI with the hand pump and the pressure gauge on the rifles showed right at 3000 PSI. This is still true for the .25 but the gauge on the .177 began showing off the charts; that is, the needle when past the red zone.
This seemed okay at first, although making determining air pressure became even more iffy.
I don’t know. The leak is audible. I’ll use the soapy water later today. I feel sure I should start with the pressure gauge and work from the outside in (hopefully, no need to go inside).
I understand the possibility of o-ring issues, but the gauge reading is what captures my attention first. I check with soapy water then depressurize (no getting around that). I may wait for the new gauges before I even check the fitting of the current gauge.
Any thoughts about the air pressure gauge needle going well past what the hand pump gauge reads (as I wrote, the reading on the .25 is still comparable to the hand pump gauge reading).
~ken
Ken,
The threads on the Marauder pressure gauge have a reputation for leaking. That’s where to start.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you. I have placed my order for a replacement gauge. I will look hard at the threads on the current one. I understand the replacement comes with some form of thread sealant.
It it is the threads on mine, would plumbers take help or is something else needed?
Also, apologies for the double post. For some reason, I need to hit F5 today, after clicking on “Post Comment”, before I do any other posting.
~ken
Ken,
I have used Teflon tape with great effect in situations like yours. Three wraps is all it takes.
B.,B.
B.B.,
Last question (I promise).
I find there is the gauge and the gauge adapter. It it one or both that have thread problems? I know to check o-rings as I go.
~ken
Ken,
What I have heard it is the threads on the gauge.
B.B.
B.B.,
Many thanks. I will replace the gauge (carefully) and I expect it to work well.
~ken
Kenholmz,
Gunfun1 is correct. If you want a better Gauge then the Crosman check out this thread: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=87110.0
Ken if I were in your place I would order a better Gauge then what Crosman offers!
shootski
Shootski,
Thank you. I placed my order to PA before I posted on the blog. However, I expect the information you provide will come in handy at some point.
Thanks,
~ken
Ken,
My pleasure!
Hope you get a quick fix that lasts; if not get yourself a better replacement than Crosman offers.
shootski
Shootski,
Will do.
~ken
Ken,
Thanks for posting on this topic. It has been very interesting to us Crosman pcp owners. Let us know how things turn out. – Don
Don,
Thank you. I always know I can get answers for my issues here; it helps to know if others also benefit from that.
~ken
B.B.,
Given a sample size of 1 and the extreme spread you obtained I don’t think this statement of yours:
12………42…………508 — Oh oh! Theory failed!
is probable. I suspect your regulator just had lower supply pressure to hold back. But who knows without Multiple Samples to go on.
shootski
Shootski
Multiple samples.
That’s why I say to shoot repeat groups with the same pellet.
BB says shoot groups of 10 to show the true average of what the target shows.
I say shoot multiple groups of 10 to show truly what the gun will do.
Gunfun1,
Yup!
That’s what my dad taught me and was reinforced by my T&E courses.
B.B. has deadlines and now a cr@ppy IT system to deal with…but that isn’t the point is it! That’s just an excuse.
shootski
Shootski
I know but the truth is the truth.
B.B.,
I hope it is permanent but the posting appears to be back to normal!
Great!
shootski
Shootski,
Earlier, RR and I were talking slugging the barrel on the RW to maybe find a good (starting) optimal size for slug ordering. I have had the barrel off. That requires the scope coming off as well. Plus, always the chance of O-ring cutting. RR mentioned shooting into water to recover a “sized” slug.
How much water would be required to halt a 26 grain slug, going 900 fps,…. ((without damage?)) 5 gal bucket? The equivalent of two 5 gal. buckets? A 55 gallon drum?
I can go heavier and slow it to 800’ish. Plus, the RW has a medium and low setting to go even lower on the fps. I have never tried either and not sure what the fps would be with 26 grain slug.
Your thoughts????
Thanks,……. Chris
Chris USA,
I would start by slowing the gun to as low a MZV as possible? The Mass of the pellet doesn’t matter but lighter will slow down faster in the water. If you have a hollow point or wadcutter those would be best. If you have a length of drain tile or PVC pipe(longest you have) you can plug one end (down range) with some kind of wadding (sponge) and then tape it shut and/or cap it to hold in the water. At the other end you can use a plastic cling wrap to close that end. Or you could go verticals from say a 1 story deck and hang it then just shoot down into it. Fill with water and hang or seal it with the cling wrap and shoot a pellet down the pipe.
I doubt you will exceed a 8-10′ column of water.
Big thing is to keep pellet path down the center!!!
shootski
Shootski,
Thank you. That “8-10 feet” of water column is what I was looking for. The RW is super easy to do medium or low, so lowering fps is no issue.
Notes made and will pursue. I am very interested in see what slugs can do in the RW. The only ones I have tried are the HN Grizzlies and they did not do as well as the JSB pellets. More options exist now.
The other concern is the size of the slugs. With pellets,… I have in general found there to be 2 head sizes in a tin. Weights,… vary considerably more. Your recommendation was a maximum of .001″ of downsizing (interference fit),.. as I recall. Also, no more than .001″ reduction, if sizing a slug.
As for choked or not,.. I can ask that question on the DS site. I do not believe it is.
Sure,… I know that I may need something with more fps (DS Safari) for example,… but I want to at least try. Then too,… twist rate enters the equation. It shall be interesting.
Thanks again,…. Chris
Chris USA,
Twist rate only generates RPM or RPS your choice. I will tell you that calipers are okay but a micrometer properly used would be best.
Good results!
shootski
shootski
Chris USA,
I will add a few stipulations: to shoot more than one pellet after you are set up. Also anyone doing this make certain you carefully single load ( no magazine sizing or distortion) and try for five or more pellets down the water tube that way you can get an average of the center three, four, five or more. Just toss the outliers from the computation. That would be best.
If you can easily get to your breach end and push a dead soft lead bullet or ball out the muzzle with a properly sized wood dowel you will get to know if your barrel is choked or has varying diameter along its length; you will feel it.
Also you will see on the internet lots of posts on slugging that recommend “.010′ ” oversize that’s firearm type dimensions! Remember airguns are typically way more “refined” as far as land to groove ∆.
shootski
Shootski,
Yes, I always do multiple tests (different days),… like when selecting a pellet for a gun. I also evaluate myself in the sense of asking,… “Was I on my game today? Was I on it for the whole session?” If not,… the testing starts over. Of course,.. some pellets will eliminate themselves right off the bat from obvious bad performance.
The idea of multiple shots is good. Even if centered perfectly,.. or so I think,… some could “plane off” and hit the sides of the tube (filled with water). Pillow stuffing a tube has also been done. I might try that first. Less mess and hassle.
No rush at the moment,.. but the more I think about it (read: dangerous),… the quicker I want to do it. Indoors,… with pillow stuffing,.. in the Winter,… is a do-able option. There probably is even You-Tube videos on it.
Thanks,…. Chris
Chris USA,
PILLOW STUFFING! Now I know you aren’t going to use the stuff out of one of those My Pillow guys Pillow’s! I mean you got class so it will be 100% Hungarian Eider Duck Down…am I right?
Seriously, if it causes any polishing of the pellet I would suspect loss of diameter sufficient to be of concern for slugging equivalency.
shootski
Shootski,
I think you touched on that in a comment to some one else. Note made.
On the “My Pillow”,…. they work really nice. Your head stays put and neck is supported. One quick readjust in the middle of the night (if required) and right back to sleep. I have tried several type/style in other makes. I can recommend 100%.
Chris
Chris USA,
Distracted shootski sent a post to his self below…
It was intended for you and any other reader wanting a way to avoid slugging and at least get close to an in the ballpark number.
shootski
Shootski,
Do you think shooting a hard pellet (like a GTO, or Crosman premier) into a rubber mulch back stop 10” deep would work? – Don
Don425,
Let’s see how do I say this without sounding like a smart_$$… Chris is trying to preserve a pristine pellet, instead of slugging his barrel, I think you are trying to do the same? If so, I SUSPECT even a relatively hard (bn#) lead alloy pellet would likely suffer distortion in the very softest rubber mulch. I guess you could try it since you probably have the 10″ deep rubber mulch trap? I don’t know how you could eyeball a 0.0010 distortion or smear off of diameter.
shootski
To all,
Too late for me, but PA has Air Venturi pressure gauge that reads to 6000 psi. Two customers report using this on their Marauder, and all three reviews report accuracy and overall satisfaction. The Q/A section also has affirmative responses for Marauder and Armada (same thing, I know).
/product/air-venturi-air-pressure-gauge-5-000-psi?a=4483
~ken
Ken
I used one of those gauges on a modified Marauder and also on my ShoeBox compressor when I had it.
Had zero problems with the gauges.
Gunfun1,
Did the Marauder require modification to use the Air Venturi gauge?
~ken
Ken
No not at all.
Gunfun1,
Thanks you. I don’t doubt I will order one or two at some point.
~ken
Ken
It will be the gauge I order if I need that type for whatever reason.
And keep up with giving the updates on your Marauders and pump. Interested to hear.
Gunfun1,
About the hand pump. I may be the last one to know this, but it appears that if I pump it several times before attaching it to the rifle, it works. Since beginning to do that, I haven’t had any pumping problems. Could be something completely different, but I won’t fly in the face of success.
~ken
Ken
I have done that too. I think it cleans the pump out.
I do that on my China electric compressor too. I hook the gun up then close the valves to fill the gun up.
And I thought you got a China pump a while back. Right?
Gunfun1,
I haven’t used the compressor yet. I have looked at more than one video and I think I am able to use it. I want to use it but I will need to be using it for a few fills when I set it up for a run. I believe it will be of greater value when I have a tank to fill up, but I do expect to use it soon.
~ken