by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- The test
- Air Arms 16-grain domes
- JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy
- Beeman Kodiak
- Ten from the magazine
- I wondered…
- The unthinkable
- Summary
Today I shoot the Air Venturi Avenger repeater at 25 yards for the first time. And, at the end of this report I will make a first-time announcement. Don’t skip ahead — enjoy the experience!
The test
I shot the Avenger at 25 yards indoors off a sandbag rest, I selected the three best pellets from the last test at 10 meters for today’s test. I shot all three pellets from the single-shot tray until the final target when I used the magazine. Let’s get started!
Air Arms 16-grain domes
First up were the 16-grain Air Arms domed pellets. The first shot told me the group would be high. It was 1.3-inches above the aim point and dead-center, right and left. I wanted it to be above the aim point because I’m shooting with a scope and there is nothing worse than shooting your aim point away. But I vowed to lower the scope setting after the group was completed.
The second shot did not enlarge the hole at all. The third shot did make it a little larger, and by the time 10 pellets had gone through the target the group they left measures 0.348-inches between centers. That is a good 25-yard group!
The first 10 Air Arms 16-grain pellets went into 0.348-inches at 25 yards.
After this group I adjusted the scope down 6-8 clicks. I don’t bother counting unless I’m doing something extra special, plus each pellet goes to its own impact point anyway. This was the last time in this test that the scope was adjusted.
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy
Next to be tested were the JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets. As before the Avenger put the first two pellets into the same hole. Then the third shot started to enlarge the hole. That lead me to something I will explain at the end of today’s test. By the time all 10 pellets had been fired, the group measured 0.426-inches between centers. It’s a good group, but not the absolute best. And I think I am responsible for the difference.
The Avenger put 10 JSB Exact Jumbo pellets into 0.426-inches at 25 yards.
Beeman Kodiak
The next and last pellet I tried was the 21.14-grain Beeman Kodiak dome. In the last test at 10 meters they had shot the smallest group of all. But on the second shot I blew away the 10-dot that was my aim point. From then on I guessed where the center of the bull was. Ten pellets went into a group measuring 0.399-inches between centers at 25 yards. That’s another good one, and I had to guess where the aim point was!
The Avenger shooting 10 Kodiak pellets at 25 yards. The first shot landed low and shot two removed my aim point. Ten in 0.399-inches.
Ten from the magazine
Now it was time to load ten into the magazine and see what happened. When the mag is loaded you can keep watching through the scope and just flick the sidelever by feel.
I chose the Air Arms 16-grain dome for this last test. Ten from the mag. went into 0.434-inches at 25 yards. That’s another good group, but it left me wondering whether I couldn’t do even better.
The Avenger put 10 Air Arms 16-grain Domes into 0.434-inches when shot from the magazine.
I wondered…
Before this test I expected the Avenger to equal my Air Arms S510XS at 25 yards. But it didn’t. The smallest group fired with the S510XS was 10 Air Arms 16-grain domes in 0.18-inches at 25 yards. That is enough smaller than the 0.348-inches of the Air Arms pellet fired single shot today that I have to take note.
The best group with the Air Arms S510XS was 10 Air Arms 16-grain domes in 0.18-inches at 25 yards. It’s enough smaller to make a difference. This photo was taken before I began to use the trime and gold dollar for group size references.
I wondered why I had shot such a group two years ago and couldn’t equal it today. Two reasons come to mind. First, I am two years older and the number on my trip meter is getting large. Second, I shot the S510XS with the Meopta Optika6 scope that has a super-fine dot at its center. Does a fine scope make a difference? Ordinarily I would say no! I am aware that most airgunners think a better scope means more accuracy, but I have never ascribed to that belief. But in today’s test I noted that the dot at the center of the UTG Bug Buster scope is several times larger than the 10-ring on the target, so perhaps there was some aiming error.
What’s really motivating me is the possibility that this $300 Avenger could be just as accurate as the $1,500 Air Arms rifle that I said I would buy. The Arms Arms rifle has the better trigger and that rifle is more ergonomic than the Avenger, but the Avenger has an externally adjustable regulator and the rifle gets bundles of powerful shots on a fill. So I am about to do something I said I would never do.
The unthinkable
I am about to mount the Meopta scope on the Avenger and run a test at 25 yards to see if just by adding that scope I can get the Avenger to shoot better. I will literally be comparing the Avenger to the S510XS.
I don’t need the Avenger to equal what the Air Arms rifle did two years ago, because I was a little younger then and that could also have been a lucky day for me. However, if I come close enough to show that with the Meopta scope the Avenger does become more accurate — well, Lucy, then I got some serious ‘splainin’ to do!
Summary
As you can tell, I am most impressed by the Air Venturi Avenger. Tyler Patner said I would be, and he was right!
I thought this would turn out to be a large test and it looks like I was correct.
Good morning everyone,
I don’t know what happened. This post was scheduled to publish and failed to do so.
B.B.
B.B.
Between your e-bike adventures and Covad, we were worried.
How is the hip?
-Y
Good morning!
Well, I am impressed, I’m not in the market for another PCP but if the Avenger shows up in Canada I would see about making some room for one.
Think that the .22 caliber would be ideal for general use and would handle pesting duties up to groundhog size with the heavier pellets.
Cheers!
Hank
BB,
I am certainly impressed with the Avenger and that says a lot for a “new” airgun and one made in China to boot.
I would be surprised if the S510 did not outshoot the Avenger. Even if it did not, the build quality of the S510 is way much better. Of course you can buy several Avengers for the price of one S510.
It is a personal thing, but I do believe every serious airgunner should own at least one finely crafted airgun. It will spoil you though. It will really take something to get your attention after that. This Avenger has my attention.
Please do put the Meopta on top of it. I want to see what it will do at 50 yards.
China is probably more capable of producing quality than any country at a particular price. Just imagine if AV wanted to price the Avenger at 600-700$.
Rk,
About BB sleeping in. His work is what many of us dream of doing when we retire. Not only is he playing with airguns every day, he is writing about them which helps with keeping his mind sharp. I would retire tomorrow if I had his writing skills. 😉
RR,
I went to bed at 7 last night and awoke at 5:30 this morning! I guess I was tired! 😉
B.B.
BB,
A long time ago Kathy and I figured out that there was nothing going on after dark that we really wanted to be involved in. Now it is when you are tired, you go to bed. I am not sure when it happened, but we turned into our parents.
BB
Nice groups!
This promises to be a fun experiment. While I would love to see you reduce group sizes significantly by using the finer reticle dot Meopta I will be surprised if that happens at 25 yards. I tend to agree with your current opinion. You probably could do as well with a peep if this rifle was designed to accommodate target sights.
We shall all see and good luck!
Deck
As far as some serious ‘splainin’ to do, I think Lucy will understand. Every shot group is a snapshot in time and the parameters are always changing. The interplay of target size and configuration and the sighting system being used are so crucial. You have proven over the decades to be a top drawer shooter. By changing the scope reticle size (and possibly optical quality) you are testing a vital element in the quest for accuracy and precision. Whether the shot group measurements, taken two years apart, will prove one rifle to be ‘better’ …….
For me, a $1500 air rifle isn’t in the cards. I’ve scratched the quality itch with Some of my firearms. Getting within a gnat’s whisker for $300, sign me up.
Pacoinohio,
Well, I feel that way, too. I was/am planning to but the Avenger from PA. My only question is, if it’s that good do I also need the much more expensive S510?
B.B.
BB,
Aah, let me think for a moment. No.
The only time the S510 will likely shine above the Avenger is at long range.
RR
You just never know.
GF1,
You have had top shelf airguns before, correct? Review the S510.
/blog/2019/10/air-arms-s510xs-ultimate-sporter-with-laminate-stock-part-7/
The Avenger might perform as good as the S510, but it is not the S510. Myself, I would likely vote for the Avenger, but I have my HM1000X .357. At 100 yards neither of these will match up.
RR
That’s not what you said at first.
You said at long range.
You said nothing about it being like the S510. How could it be at 3 times less the cost. But that doesn’t mean it can’t perform like the S510.
GF1,
Very true. The truth is, I am really in the cheering section for the Avenger, even if it is made in China. I would hate to see it do better than the S510 at 50+ yards, but I secretly do hope it does. It is so embarrassing.
This is why I would like to have a Maximus. I know I can fiddle with it and turn it into a world class shooter. I do believe this can be also. The Liberty, which this is based on, is an excellent air rifle right out of the box. With a little work, it becomes awesome.
I just have a hard time dealing with a Chinese air rifle beating out a top shelfer.
RR
I know what you mean. But heck I would rather see something good come from them at the $300 price than something junk for $300.
At least we have a fairly nice gun at a nice price if we do want to get one. At least the options there for the people that would like one.
GF1,
Like the Diana Mauser PCP?
Nova Vista has figured out what it takes to satisfy the US airgunners, quality at an unbeatable price.
Snow Peak is still struggling with that. When Diana Group started selling these, they bought existing models and put them in their stocks. I seriously considered the Diana Outlaw at one time, but I was seeing/hearing of brand new air rifles not working. These Snow Peak models have been around for quite a few years now. Low quality. No excuse.
I do understand what has happened. Webley quit making anything a while back and started relabeling others stuff or they would have somebody else make stuff for them. Along comes the Webley/Hatsan Tomahawk. Webley beat the cost down on one of the Hatsan airguns and had it restocked. Then they marked it way up, relying on the Webley name to sell it.
Word soon spread that you could buy the same Hatsan for a lot less. Also, to meet contract requirements Hatsan was using parts for these Webleys that they rejected for their own. The Webleys had some serious quality issues.
Of course, Webley had made their money. It was now the distributors and dealers problem. They had all of these Webley air rifles that were creating angry customers. You would buy an expensive “Webley” sproinger and open the box and be confronted with a factory second reject. PA was trying to sell them for $279. Of course they were immediately sent back.
I acquired mine from a well known airgun dealer in the SW USA. They were having a clearance sale of these things at a very nice low price. You could also buy a nice Hawke Optics 2-7X32 AO IR etched Mil-Dot scope with it for a ridiculously low price. After all was said and done, the Webley cost me less than the shipping and I ended up with a very fine scope. I give it the 3R rating.
As for the Webley. For what I paid for it, it is not a bad sproinger. I file off the burrs, used a bit of TIAT, etc. and ended up with a nice looking sproinger that I am not afraid to tinker and experiment with because if I take it and pitch it over the hill, I am not out much.
Time for a second cup of coffee.
RR
Yep I know how that goes. If I thought about it pretty much anything could use some work to make it even better.
I have noticed the China products do seem to be getting better though.
BB,
How does the trigger compare to the Marauders?
Brent
Brent,
At this point I think the Avenger is ahead of the Marauder.
The Marauder has the better trigger, but on all other accounts they are even. And the Avenger is cheaper.
B.B.
BB,
Looking real good. Too bad I have the regulated Maximus already. I would have to take this over the Fortitude if in the market for this category of air gun.
Chris
Yes, I’ve been wondering exactly that since the first Avenger report—how does the Fortitude compare with it? Of course, I’ve been enjoying the Fortitude for a couple of months and the Avenger won’t be available for a few more weeks…
The other thing I’ve been wondering about is how does the Avenger compare with the semiautomatic Marauder?
Since I have the Fortitude, I’m going to wait and see reviews of both, and then will wait for the synthetic stock semiautomatic Marauder as well.
MisterAP
I really wish they would hurry up with the semi auto Marauder. I hope they do good. I do want one.
BB,
It would be nice if you checked it at a lower pressure Fill, say 2600 psi, for those of us who don’t have carbon fiber tanks.
Brent
Brent,
I think I was supposed to do that, as well. You keep after me.
B.B.
Well technically the ergonomics, optics, and trigger do not affect the accuracy of the gun. They sure do affect the shooter though. The stress level for me really goes up when when I have to focus real hard because of the ergonomics, optics, or trigger.
Sometimes I like the challenge but often I like to shoot to releave stress and just relax. My MP-46M pistol is one gun that is so much better than me that I always know it will do its part. It is very fun to shoot and let’s me relax.
My RAW rifle should be relaxing but at long distance there is always things to consider like the wind. So far I have not adjusted its trigger to be where I like it. It is a great trigger but I still don’t know exactly when it will go off. I need to do some more adjustment on that trigger to make it easier to shoot. To me that means requiring less effort in focusing on each aspect of the shot.
With most any gun though after quite a few thousand shots most of the thinking goes away and muscle memory takes over and if the gun is accurate and the muscle memory does not have to many bad habits all is good. I had two gun like this my Benjamin 312 and my Target Ruger 1022. The 312 is totally worn out. The 1022 needs a new barrel after shooting it yesterday I have decided to get it a new barrel and a new scope.
Don
Benji-Don,
Since you are the first to discuss the all important stuff I’ll share with you what i found today straight from the MIT Physics Department researchers!
“We too, every nanosecond of our existence, are being kicked around, buffeted by these quantum fluctuations. It’s just that the jitter of our existence, our thermal energy, is too large for these quantum vacuum fluctuations to affect our motion measurably. With LIGO’s mirrors, we’ve done all this work to isolate them from thermally driven motion and other forces, so that they are now still enough to be kicked around by quantum fluctuations and this spooky popcorn of the universe.” So Quantum fluctuations moved a 50+ kilogram mirror…just think the effect on a say, 20 grain pellet or even a 300 grain bullet!
I have shared with you the TRUTH of FLYERS and group size growth! Knowing this TRUTH you may now have a life free of blame and shoot relaxed Don!
Happy group size INDEPENDENCE DAY!
shootski
Shootski,
So,… if I have this right (I highly doubt),… flyers are caused by “quantum vacuum fluctuations”? Ummmm? I will have to think on that a bit. In the mean time,…. I will chalk up (all) my flyers to that! 😉
Aside from all of the things we do as shooters to control the seemingly endless amount of variables,… (weigh, head sort, slug barrel, size projectile, vary charge, etc., etc.,…..)…. how do propose that we combat this latest discovery in ballistic challenges????
I am not sure what LIGO’s mirrors are,… but I can get my hands on some LEGO’s. Will that work? Do I build them around my target?,… or gun?,…. or both? Is aluminum foil involved? If so,.. I have some.
;),……….. Chris
Chris USA,
LIGO: LASER Interferometer Gravitational-wave Observatory https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/
As far as what we can do right now…we should all wear fancy facemasks to hide our looks of embarrassment as the Quantum’s play HAVOC with our groups ;^) They have had to suspend the third run, so solutions to Airgunner’s problems are off the table, until after the COVID19 Pandemic is not disturbing The Force any longer!
LEGO Bricks could be used to shield the pellets path to the target but at an average cost of $0.193 US/ average element cost even shielding a 10 meter range would be cost prohibitive! Better to just build the LEGO Roller Coaster and just have fun!
shootski
Yeah but were they there before they looked for them. You know mirrors have a free will and can’t be trusted.
Don,
You mean Heisenberg might be right!
All Effects are Relative to me!
shootski
In more ways than he knew.
BB
Definitely interested in seeing if the scope makes a difference.
If it does. Now we will have to think back and say. Could all those other guns you tested through the years could of been more accurate with a good scope.
Hmm which gun from a old report would you test first if you thought back then it should of been a more accurate gun?
Yep I want to see how it goes with the good scope.
Gunfun1,
My Dad taught me to spend more on my scope then on my rifle! I have often read, in the past, that you should be ready to spend twice to three times the cost of the rifle on your scope. I think the manufacturing of scopes has changed enough that the bottom end scope range has gotten much better than back then but you still get much better precision with the mid and a bit more (perhaps also longer service life) with the expensive top of the line scopes! Always? No, stuff happens when manufacturers cheat and set prices based on what the Market will bare!
shootski
Shootski,
I like that thinking. In fact,…I like it a lot. Also “in fact”,… I am pretty sure that I can not afford to think that way. I do agree though. Nothing beats being able to see a gnats hair at 100 yards. One more excuse eliminated.
Chris
Chris USA,
You will see better days and soon my friend!
For now check out what can be had for the approximate cost or less of an airgun you own!
https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-golden-eagle-hd.html
https://vortexoptics.com/media/wysiwyg/GE-HD-15-60X52-ECR1-MOA.jpg
You can check that Gnat’s hair for split ends at 500 for sure!
I’m not even suggesting Kahles, Swarovski, Schmidt und Bender or other really spendy tubes!
shootski
Shootski
I have had some more expensive scopes throughout time. And they always seemed to be more clear out to the edge of the scope view also. And they seem to be more on the money when I make click adjustments on the windage and elevation than the cheaper scopes I have had.
I wish I could get a real nice very expensive scope to try. But I don’t think that will be happening soon. Maybe one day. I hope. 🙂
GF1,
Go for an Hawke Optics. Any Hawke Optics. You will be happy.
RR
I do like the Hawke products. Matter of fact I just got a Hawke red dot sight the other day and like it.
Gunfun1
If BB’s tests show the Meopta improves accuracy by about 1/10 inch group sizes, we all have a new ballgame indeed. If validated through thorough testing Meopta or some other high quality scopes would need to come to my house.
Can’t wait to see how this plays out.
Deck
But if the groups improve, is it because of the more expensive scope, or the fact that it has a finer reticle? In other words, if he put a $50 Amazon scope with a fine reticle on the Avenger would the groups improve? I’m not one who can afford top of the line toys, but if you know what features you need you can make wise, budget minded choices, and get some really good results even though you don’t spend lots of money.
Below are some recent groups in shot with my $200 Gamo Urban, $60 Hand pump, and $50 scope. Now, if I had the disposable income I would love to own something that looks great, feels great, shoots great, lasts forever AND impresses others. But for now I’m pretty happy with looks good (to me), feels fine, shoots great, and has been mostly trouble free for 2 1/2 years. After all, isn’t ‘shoots great’ the most important?
Toddspeed
Nice shooting and group 4 is a screamer. What accounts for it? Different pellet?
Deck
Thanks Decksniper.
No, all the same pellet, Air Arms 16 grains. I can shoot groups like that one at 30 or 20 yards more consistently, but they open up a little at 40. Then again, I haven’t been stretching out to 40 for a long time, maybe if I practice more I can get more tight 40 yard groups.
I’ll add my 20 yd group below.
these urbans are awesome. that’s five shots at 41 yds with 18.13s. it seems everybody’s Urban prefers these things in my experience.
You know, I’ve seen many people say the same thing about the JSB 18s, but my Urban hates them. I went through one whole tin, then waited a year or so, tried them again, and still no good. In fact, I tried them again yesterday at 30 yards and got two 1” groups. Strange that I seem to have the only Urban that doesn’t like them. The AA 16s are the only pellet I really shoot. Of course, I keep some CPUMs around because they are so cheap, and they do very well in the Urban, just not as consistent as the AAs.
Toddspeed,
I have to agree with everything you said. I also have owned a Gamo Urban for 2 1/2 years and it has performed flawlessly. Your groups look very good. I see that you have lessened the tension on the hammer spring to achieve 17 fpe? I have not touched mine and I believe it shoots at about 24 fpe. That’s good enough for two one-shot woodchuck kills at 15-20 yards. I found that my Urban shoots the best groups with the JSB 18.13g pellets. I’ve tried the 15.89s, and also H&N FTTs, but the 18.13g always wins out. I have a cheap hand pump too, and it’s still working fine after 2 1/2 years. I have a UTG 3-12x44SWAT Compact scope with the etched glass reticle on my Urban. It works very well for my pesting needs too. I have not shot my Urban out beyond 30 yds, but when I did do that I was able to shoot a group of 28/30 in less than 1/2″. Nice to see a fellow Urban commenter. 🙂
Geo
Deck
I have had some more expensive scopes at times. But no $2000 scope yet. Maybe one day.
I really wonder what that $2000 scope will do compared to a $150 scope on a air gun.
Gunfun1,
It depends on the scope and what you want to do with it. I know you do hold overs and hold offs so if you have your dope and the reticle is good one for holds then even a relatively cheap scope will do the job for pesting and hunting inside of say, 65 yards no problem. If you are doing Benchrest or FT competitions then you already know the answer. Great shooters can overcome a lot but if you are shooting against equally good shooters with much better gear you better be REAL lucky!
The place where the money pays off the most is when you range with your scope and then dial the turrets. Or if you are hunting beyond 100 with conditions, wind, and range computer…or you really know your stuff cold and can do it in your head.
The glass quality is really to be seen. You need to go to a shop and ask to look through a top end scope outside in twilight conditions. That quality glass lets you get more look time before you and your eyes wear out.
I can see you shooting that Vortex Golden Eagle and wind up spoiled for life. If you dare look through a March, Kahles, Nightforce or Tangent Theta and you will never be satisfied until you are flat broke!
shootski
Shootski
I know what would happen if I ever was to own a real good scope.
I guess it boils down to the old saying. You got to see what you want to hit. I really do think scopes matter.
Can’t wait to see what happens when BB does his scope test.
Gunfun1
My reply may come twice in part. Cyberspace?
I do love scopes but can do as well at 25 yards with a quality peep target system. I have said here I don’t think BB will significantly improve his scores with the Meopta. I do want to see what happens because I don’t know so much.
Deck
Deck
We will just have to wait and see.
Shootski,
That is the real issue right there,…. being able to (actually) look through a scope in real life,… prior to buying it. How many retailers have that option?,…. assuming they even have a store front to visit. Are all the top end scopes mounted and ready to try?
The ocular would need adjusted for each customer,…. no? Then,… under what conditions do you view? Twilight?,… but it is high noon.
While maybe over simplified (or just plain ignorant),… there should be (quantitative) measurements for anything that involves a scope. Top that/those out,… and you have your best scope. Case closed.
Plan B: Rely on reviews of people in the industry and what they report (sponsor influenced?) and just go on that? I like Plan A better. If I am dropping 2,3,4,5000 on a scope,… I darn sure want to try it and have someone right there to answer any (and all) questions I might have. Spend all day deciding? Sure.
Chris
Chris USA,
There still are retailers who let you look through scopes; else where would they get DEMOS to sell when they no longer are selling that model. You may need to travel a little to get to a shop that has what you want to spend some serious money on. I have visited NYC a number of times and this is but one shop that has hands on by appointment opportunities: .https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/shared/visit-the-tech-corner.jsp Another reason NOT to always buy from the cheapest source? Unfortunatly only some airgunners are social about their shooting (a major failing of our sport is not supporting the Clubs and Ranges) which precludes looking through other folks scopes at, shows, shoots and on hunts…maybe even shooting them.
Scopes don’t need to be mounted to look through them and see how the glass looks to your eye all the way out to the edges and how the Eyebox works for you. Yes, the eyepiece (Ocular) needs to be adjusted for your eye but all that takes is a flat well lighted white surface and a bit of know-how to do it correctly. Yes you can’t easily do a bunch of tests about how the scope tracks but there are lots of things you can determine with the right tools/charts.
“While maybe over simplified (or just plain ignorant),… there should be (quantitative) measurements for anything that involves a scope. Top that/those out,… and you have your best scope. Case closed.” Many manufacturers have good data on their scopes (frequently hard to find unless you download the manual)…if not you need to ask yourself why not! This is some of the gear they use to provide that data: https://www.vermontphotonics.com/focal-power-dioptometers-dynameters/ But the proof is still in how the total system works and that includes that lens, eyeball, and optic nerve in only your head.
Do your initial homework, I know you do that Chris, I’ll bet with a little looking you can find a place even nearer to your home…if you are serious about buying…call and ask for an appointment…you might be surprised.
shootski
Shootski,
Thank you. Both sites saved. I did look them over real quick. As always,… you are good with providing top quality links.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Have you ever checked out “Cyclops Videos Joe W Rhea”? His YouTube channel is mostly about scope reviews. He’s kind of funny too. I’m a subscriber to his channel.
Geo
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWL2TQa6Ug_qqj36AgPp2XA/featured
Geo,
I have not. Link saved for further review. I do not “subscribe” to anything. If I did,… that would be all I would get done. With the extra time,… I have been checking out GTA and AGN off and on and here of course,.. and the DOC. This is always the first one up in the AM.
Chris
In your report on the .22 Seneca Aspen you logged a .253 in. group of H&N Barracudas at 25yds. and a 0.0 in. group at 10yds. Is it worth making a comparison to that rifle? I’d love to hear that it too can hold its own against a $1,500 rifle because I plan on getting one.
Guest45,
I think the one comparison will be enough.
B.B.
BB
Like Guest45 I am considering the Seneca Aspen. If your Aspen accuracy tests are complemented by pumping parts holding up, the Aspen is the entry into the PCP world. Once hooked this Air Venturi Avenger may be the next step requiring the needed supporting equipment before plunging into serious $ with little knowledge.
Deck
Deck,
I have an Aspen and really like it. I think the key to the pump holding up is to pump slowly and try not to put any side torque on the pump handle. It is the same with hand pumps. I try to pause a couple or more seconds between pumps. With that said I have not shot the Aspen enough to know for sure but I have had good luck with my hand pump for about 5 years. Heat is the enemy of all high pressure pumps so slow and steady will make a difference.
Don
Don
Thanks for your input. Having some multi pumps including a Crosman Custom 1300KT I try to avoid putting sideways pressure when pumping. I also pump slowly with full strokes which I learned with my single stroke pneumatics. But your caution about heat buildup is good to know should I get a hand pump or the Aspen.
A good reason to follow this blog is the help you get not only from Tom but from other readers.
Deck
BB,
I’m new to air guns. I bought a .177 Benjamin Rogue NP2 for pest control. However, I found it was very difficult for me to get grouping from 20 yards. I have tried 2 different pellets more than 200 shots – Beeman Pointed, and Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum. The POIs were all over the places.
It could be me a novice. But if it takes years of practice to be good at break barrel, I’m thinking of buying a .22 PCP for pest control.
For target shooting and backyard pest control purpose, I don’t want to spend too much money. I plan to use hand pump for PCP, and I want it to be quiet so I don’t disturb neighbors.
I’ve read many of your articles. So far, the Benjamin Fortitude Gen2 and this Avenger are in my candidate list. Which one do you recommend?
If someone can convince me that my current .177 Benjamin Rogue NP2 is good enough for pest control after short time practice and tips, I’m happy to listen and keep it. 🙂
Thanks,
Hw360
I say a Benjamin Maximus over a Fortitude.
My real choice would be a Gauntlet.
And yes I have had all 3 guns. Oh and a few of the Np break barrels too.
The Gauntlet or Maximus would be my choice. And probably the Gauntlet because it uses the replaceable 13 cubic inch regulated bottle among other reasons.
GF1,
I like the Maximus. Put on a ((side lever)), regulate, magazine,…. I would be a (real) happy camper.
Oh,…. ((no shroud)), 1/2-20 threads at muzzle too.
My now reg. Maximus has all that,… minus the the mag. and side lever. While I am wishing,… adj. cheek riser and P/W rail under and on top. ((Open the loading port)) while they are in there.
Not asking for much?????,…………… Chris 🙂
Oh,…. ((reversible side lever)) Right only = no go
Chris
The manufacturers will never build a gun like everyone likes.
That’s why we mod. 😉
GF1,
I will counter that with,…. everything the modder’s do is what should have been done in the first place.
It is like,…. “They” throw out a half baked air gun,… then let the modder’s have a go at,… find the weak points/flaws and fix them,… and THEN they will release a “Gen. II” more better and bestest version. We do their R+D work,… for free!
Chris
Chris
If that’s the case no guns would come about.
Hi Gunfun1,
Thanks for your reply.
Maximus is not regulated PCP. What are its pros that you prefer it over Fortitude?
Gauntlet is kind of heavy. I will most likely shoot offhand for pest control. I cannot hold my 8.4 lbs Rogue steady enough for a usable shot. I hope lighter PCP will help.
Hw360
The Maximus that I have is much more accurate than the Fortitude. I like accurate guns. A gun can get all kinds of shots but if its not accurate then it don’t matter.
My Gauntlet is a very accurate and very quiet gun. Why I like it also is you can filll it anywhere between around 2000 to 3000 psi and still get good shot count so that makes it easier to fill with a hand pump. Plus with a external regulated bottle it’s easy to replace a bottle if the regulator does start messing up. So that means your still shooting while your seeing what’s wrong with the other bottle. But I will say I have had good luck with the regulated 13 cubic inch hpa bottles. Oh and they are easy to adjust regulated pressure. Most internal regulators like the Fortitude if the regulator fails you have to take the gun apart to fix the regulator or adjust if you want.
Oh and don’t know how you hold your guns when your shooting off hand. But I lock my elbows and arms into my rib cage wheni shootoffhand. It’s a very stable hold and it takes alot of the forward weight off the gun. Give it a try and see what happens and let me know.
Thank you Gunfun1 for your experience. I will add Maximus and Gauntlet into my candidate list.
Accuracy is my top priority, too.
Regarding offhand positions, I know I need lots of practices. I just hope it won’t take too long to be useful before the pests are out of control. 😀
Last I heard,… the Maximus is on the way out. Better be looking quick if interested.
Thank you for the info.
Hw360
Try the hold and see if it improves your shooting. I think you will see a difference.
And keep us updated on what you decide on gun wise.
Hw360,
You might consider using a shooting tripod, such as the primos trigger stick tripod. Check out the videos. It works much better for me than shooting off hand, with my marauder pistol (configured as a carbine with AR-15 style adjustable stock). I am not sure how well a Nitro Piston springer, that maybe hold sensitive, would do. But the tripod should ease the burden of holding a heavy PCP. – Don
Happy The 4th!
Don425,
The one trigger height adjustment is a cool idea. I did not know it before. Thanks for sharing.
HW360,
Welcome to my world! I have a very nice Diana 34 Panther in .22 caliber. I tried every hold suggested over a five year period. The best 10-shot group I was able to achieve consistently was 1.5″ to 2″ at 25 yds, and to this day, I’m still not able to shoot it well. Pesting was my main reason for purchasing an airgun. I even sent this one to B.B. in 2017 for review. He did a five part review and demonstrated that it was capable of 1″ groups at 25 yds.
At ChrisUSA’s suggestion, I went to the dark side in the spring of 2018. After much online research, I chose the Gamo Urban PCP. I purchased it for $220 and bought a $85 hand pump to fill it. In my opinion, the Urban is one of the best choices in the entry level ($300) market. It weighs in at 6.7 lbs plus scope weight, so it’s very light. It is also short and compact making it a joy to carry around. And above all, it’s a very accurate airgun! The quality is very good because it is basically a rebranded BSA Buccaneer manufactured in the UK. The power is about 22-24 fpe out of the box, but it can be increased if needed up to around 30 fpe. I’ve cleanly taken out two woodchucks with one shot each, so 24 fpe is plenty for pesting and small game hunting. I have owned my Urban for 2 1/2 years and it has functioned flawlessly. I usually pump it to 2900 psi and shoot two mags (20 shots) and then refill.
I have great confidence pesting with the Urban, something I was never able to get with my springers. The Diana 34 and the Crosman Nitro Venom both reside in my gun cabinet. The Urban is ready at hand for that sparrow harassing my bluebirds, or starlings and grackles raiding my bird feeders. I cannot recommend the Urban more highly… put it on your list and check it out. 😉
Geo
Geo,
Thanks for your help.
Since both Gunfun and you recommended unregulated PCP’s, I wonder how important a regulator is for a pest control PCP. I thought regulator is MUST HAVE for accuracy since it keeps velocity consistent, so scope sight-in and practicing experience can be carried to real usages.
Did I understand wrong?
Hw360
I like PCP’s that use the small 13 cubic inch (regulated) bottles.
They would be my first choice over a unregulated pcp.
Hw360,
No, you are not wrong. In a non-regulated PCP,.. there is a sweet spot of when the fps rises slightly, then stays pretty steady,.. and then drops gradually. Fps can vary over a range,.. which may or may not affect POI. That is called your shot curve and you have to shoot it (for accuracy) and note your fill level to determine where that is. (X amount of shots that are accurate between 3000 and 1500 psi,.. for example)
Some people say that they do not like a regulated gun as “eventually”,… you will have issues. I like them myself as it does just what you say it does.
The detachable bottle like GF1 is talking about has the regulator built with the bottle. If it goes,.. you do not have to go inside the gun. Still,… the gun is regulated if using those.
BB has had some regulated air guns here lately that have been slow to transfer the unregulated/through the regulator/to the regulated plenum. In that case, you have to wait between shots (30-60 seconds). You can’t do rapid fire. Not all regulated PCP’s have that problem and I would say for 90% of them that they do not. My Maximus has no issue with the added HUMA regulator.
Hope some of that helps,… more so than confuses you.
Chris
Hw360,
The way I see it, a regulator is just one more thing to go wrong. I don’t own a chronograph, but that would be very helpful when shooting a PCP. I rely on credible YouTube reviews by guys like Steve Scialli at AEAC and Rick Eutsler at AirgunwebTV, and also Tyler Patner here at Pyramyd AIR.
As you learn about PCP airguns, you will see that the non-regulated ones have what is called a “shot curve”. Depending on the fill pressure, the first shots will be slower, then build to a higher speed, then start back down. It’s important to know the optimum pressure to fill the reservoir, which is not usually the maximum allowed.
Here is a video review of the Urban by Tyler. It has an excellent graph showing how the shot curve works. I fill my Urban to 2900 psi with a hand pump. At that fill pressure I should get two magazines, 20 shots, with an extreme spread of only 15 fps. I’ve seen regulated airguns that had a higher spread. Here’s thing though, with a regulator, a PCP is much more efficient with the air and you will get many more shots on a fill. But, when I’m only using my rifle for pesting, it only requires one shot usually and I can go for several weeks before having to fill the tank. If you want to go out and shoot a whole tin of pellets in an afternoon, this probably isn’t the airgun for you. Hope some of this info is helpful to you. 😉
Geo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygpqFSg4law
Hi Gunfun, Chris, and Geo,
What I read from your comments:
Although built-in regulator like Fortitude Gen2 is convenient, it’s not prime time yet or has not been tested by time, it could be problematic. External regulators are more reliable.
Fortitude Gen2 is not very accurate comparing to other sub $300 PCP’s, it’s not the best choice.
Are these right?
Hw360,
(out of room below) The Avenger is shaping up nice, and there is a 2000 psi tune in play. As I recall,.. BB said it was quiet. Sounds like a good fit,..and regulated. And side lever. And magazine. And accurate.
Chris
Geo
I remained perplexed about your Diana 34. Mine gives even better accuracy now than than the 1/2” to 3/4” ten shot groups at 25 yards I told you about then. Cocking has eased and TIAT is the cat’s meow for this rifle. My rifle seems to deliver every target outing. You know how I hold it for targets and that may be averse to you preferring a hunting hold. I I know you can shoot because I have followed your comments.
Still perplexed!
Deck
Hey Deck,
Nice to get a comment from you. Hope you and the family are well and surviving this Covid-19 crap! I fear it’s a long way from being over and young people are just plain being stupid about it.
As I recall, you rest your Diana on a bag? Yeah, several others have also been perplexed by my not being able to achieve good groups with my Diana 34. It spends most of the time in my gun cabinet because the Urban is a pesting tool I can shoot well. I did get the 34 out this past winter and shoot is a little in my basement range at 17 yards. I can shoot it a little better from a bench, but still no where near as good as the Urban. I could mostly keep the groups inside of 1″ with the 34, but, with the Urban I can consistently hit a 3/16″ dot in the center of the target. Also, on the first shot with the 34, the recoil surprised me as I was not used to the rifle jumping like that. It’s as smooth as butter since B.B. put the Vortec kit in it, but still, it’s a powerful springer and that’s just the nature of the beast. It’s a very nice springer though and any poor groups are just on me. Stay well my friend, and happy shooting. 😉
Geo
Geo
Keep working with your Diana 34. Accuracy lives in your rifle. You just need to find it.
Stay safe and continue to use common sense in avoiding the virus. I agree that most young people are oblivious plus the virus has been politicized which should be a felony.
Deck
Hw360,
PCP’s are just much easier to shoot well. Shoot better, quicker,… without the typical springer fussing.
The Avenger is shaping up to be pretty nice from the looks of it.
Chris
Hi Chris,
“PCP’s are just much easier to shoot well. Shoot better, quicker,… without the typical springer fussing.”
I am still thankful to you for pointing me to the “Dark Side”. The Urban remedied ALL of my pesting issues using a springer. I have found your statement to be exactly true. 😉
Hw360 mentioned the rifle having to be backyard friendly. My experience is that the Urban is quieter than the Diana 34. This is validated by my wife because when shooting in my basement range, she would comment on the loudness of the Diana 34, but when I shot the Urban she would say that she could hear it but that it was not as loud upstairs. I would compare the sound of the Urban to an air nailgun, maybe less.
Been doing any shooting or pesting? It’s been in the 90s here in MI for the past several days and too hot and humid to even be outside. I’m still doing any zero confirmations in my basement range.
Geo
Geo,
I am glad it all worked out well for you. Hw360 would do well with the Avenger or Urban.
As for shooting. Not much,… at least at paper. Hot and humid with Columbus hitting 95 day after day. The highest I have seen here is 86 and humid, but I am very rural with lots of trees around. I will sit out in the AM and sometimes in the PM with the .22 Maximus at the ready. Up to 12 fuzzy tails this year with 2 yesterday. Did see 1 groundhog down in the woods yesterday. First one in a long time. With the lighting at the time,.. it looked like a stump and I was pretty sure there was no stump there. Eventually it moved. It got a pass as I was not near the gun at the time.
In general,… I will give the critters a pass until they go under and up in the car. There will be no “under and up in” on the premises. The squirrels are the worst offenders,… much to their soon to be demise.
My shooting lane is very dark most of the day. I did get a 1000W rechargeable light and mounted it to another target holder (plastic electric fence pole) and aim it at the target. I am very sure it will work quite well. It is ready to go/try,… but it has been just too hot out.
I did get a bird feeder set up done. 42′ of plastic coated steel cable between trees. The squirrels have yet to figure out where the ends are,…. after 3+ weeks. I must have dumb squirrels. It is positioned right where I can see it from my desk/usual chair. The squirrels are staying to the ground (for now) along with the chipmunks. A pair of Pileated woodpeckers visit daily. Them suckers are big. They like the suet feeder. The seed feeder is black oil sunflower seeds. I have 2 ears of corn hanging, but they are untouched after 3+ weeks.
At any rate,… if a squirrel shows up,… I pop out on the porch, brace off the house and lights out. It is an easy 25 yard shot and only going for the head for a quick drop. Body shots will often allow them to run off and hide. I like to confirm and do a quick follow up if needed.
That is about it here. I am doing fine and hope you all are as well.
Chris
Chris
What kind of tree rats are you getting ?
Here is a pic of a red.
tt
TT,
Mostly grays with the occasional red. Most of the adults have been taken out and it seems that there is mostly 1/2-3/4 grown youths now. The are not as bright/sharp as the adults.
I have 3 tails and one is red, one is gray and one is brown. Each very distinct in color.
Fun fact,… according to the ODNR,.. the most common squirrel in Ohio is the flying squirrel but very few people have ever seen one. I have not. They are supposedly nocturnal.
Chris
Chris
We have mostly reds and fox.
Depends on where you are . There are also pockets of gray and black squirrels.
The flying squirrels might be about the same. If they find food and trees that have the right size nesting holes, they will probably be there.
tt
HW360,
“…..and I want it to be quiet so I don’t disturb neighbors”.,….. that is relative/subjective. Be careful there if you are worried about neighbors. No budget guns have screw on moderators. Look for something that is shrouded and will likely have baffles. Even then,… the actual noise reduction will vary.
Chris
The reason that I bought Benjamin Rogue NP2 is that it claims to be the quietest air rifle.
When I got it new and tested in my backyard, 2 of first 5 pellets (8.4gr) went supersonic and sounded like firearms. My wife ran out of house asking what happened. I had to stop testing and ordered heavier pellets for brake-in. Now the Rogue is broken-in, my family do not hear the sound in house if windows are closed. That is quiet enough for me not to disturb neighbors. 🙂
Hw360,
Good move on going heavier. I am not sure what fps it was advertised at, and with what weight pellet,… but some that of might have been combustion of volatile oils left over from the manufacturer build. Not uncommon. I imagine that after you quit having it going supersonic,.. that you still saw some smoke and smelled oil burning for awhile.
Chris
B.B.
What, if any (for those of us (read me) who are way too impatient to wait between shots (call me spoiled) for a reluctant regulator to fill its lung), is the fix? That is just not acceptable in my book. That kind of down time is why I would never consider any CO2 gun – pay for the gun, pay for the pellets, and pay for the cartridges…AND THEN have to wait in the winter between shots for the thing to warm up ? So what is the problem and, if all it takes is sweat equity or cash, i will pop for it. What are we talking here, dismantling and lubing?, better seals?, hire a gunsmith?
john
who otherwise likes this Avenger, has a Hill pump, and routinely pumps to 3000, but does not mind waiting (in this case) after 5min of pumping for the pump to cool down in order to extend the healthspan of the pump seals (i know B.B. has written about this somewhere before).
p.s. would read with interest a handpump blog regarding e.g. Hill pump vs Air Venture pump vs etc.
I could have sworn he already did that. he recommends the hill pump, by the way
Yes, he always brags about how his Hill pump works fine even after many years; just keep it lubed and don’t overheat. That’s why I bot one over 10yrs ago and mine still works fine too.
I have a long list of his blogs going back to 9/29/15 but “Hill” does not come up in any of the titles. But yes he’s written about this.
Fyi, I returned the Avenger soon after purchasing. Didn’t care for the weight or the cocking strength required; the deal breaker, however, was that the composite trigger adjustment (Phillips head) stripped out quickly, even under normal gentle use, rendering it unadjustable. I submitted a detailed review; they deleted it. Oh well, tmi i guess. Whatever. 🙂
lol! they deleted it? could it be pending approval? also, how often were you adjusting the trigger screw? the way you phrased it kind of makes it seem like you were adjusting it on a regular basis, which I never myself attempted, especially not with those tiny screws on the cheap guns. sucks, though, that you didn’t enjoy it. I’ve not been having much success with the $300 pcps myself, with the exception being the urban, that I’m really pleased with so far