by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The Bulls Eye pistol (left) came first. Manufacture started in 1924 in Rawlins, Wyoming. The smaller Sharpshooter pistols at the right were made in Rawlins until sometime during World War II, and then manufacture moved to La Jolla, California in 1946.
This report covers:
- New parts!
- My Sharpshooters
- Unmarked guns
- What the launcher does
- How accurate?
- John O. Beckwith
- A full report
- Launchers/slides/carriers are available
A month ago I was contacted by reader George, whose great uncle, John Beckwith, produced the Sharpshooter pistols in La Jolla, California. George had read my Part 1 of the Sharpshooter report that was published in September of 2018 and he noticed what I said in one of the captions.
The sliding launcher is what flings the shot from the pistol. The older Sharpshooters have metal launchers like this one that last for decades. This one is about 76 years old and still works fine. That flat metal piece on the right is the sear that also opens the in-line magazine to allow one shot to fall into the launcher when it is pushed up by the launcher.
The metal launcher was replaced by a plastic one like this sometime after the 1960s. It cannot take the strain of constant use and will fail with time. I have had two plastic launchers fail. When they fail there are no replacement parts.
What I said in the caption of the second picture is true — there are no replacement parts for Sharpshooter rubber band pistols, but George wrote and told me he had several of the metal launchers — Would I be interested in one? His great uncle had given him several. I said yes, because the plastic launcher (I call them launchers and George calls them slides. I found out that the company called them carriers) in one of my newer guns had broken.
I bought two Sharpshooter pistols in San Jose, California in 1968 or so. I was cutting class at San Jose State — a regular thing for me — and wandering through the downtown shops when I spotted them high on a shelf in a hardware store. They couldn’t have cost more than $3.00 each because I didn’t have a lot of money then. But just looking at the box I imagined they were at least 20 years old — though unbeknownst to me at the time they were still being produced from leftover parts until the 1980s.
I have a better-looking nickel-plated gun that’s in a box and is still in good shape, but I shot the cheaper-looking blued steel gun until its plastic launcher failed. Of course the one without the launcher doesn’t work anymore. That is, it didn’t work until George contacted me. It turns out the metal launcher/slide/carrier his uncle gave him fits into the gun the same as the plastic one did.
The zinc carrier George sent me fits the cheaper Sharpshooter pistol fine!
Not every Sharpshooter made in La Jolla is marked with the name of the town. But there is a way to identify if it was made there. John Beckwith improved the design of the Sharpshooter by putting a forward protruding bump or hook on the rubber band anchors at the front of the gun to hold the bands more securely. If you see that hook it’s a La Jolla gun, regardless of the markings.
My blued gun has the “La Jolla hook.” That’s the forward protrusion on the rubber band anchor. That screw is for adjusting the rail tension to get the best accuracy and velocity from the pistol.
I want to tell you all about the history of the Bulls Eye Pistol Company of Box 485 Rawlins, Wyoming, and the Bulls Eye Manufacturing Corporation of La Jolla, California, but today I will focus just on the launcher. In my opinion that single piece is what makes the whole concept work.
What the launcher does
The launcher, which in the guns that date back to 1924 is made of zinc, fits inside the gun on two steel rails. Like the plastic part that replaced it, zinc is a low friction material that wears in when in moving contact with steel parts.
In this graphic drawn by Dean Fletcher, you can see how the shot climbs in its seat when the gun fires. That is a key to the accuracy. And yes, the sear does come down from the top rather than up from the bottom.
The action of the sear being pushed up to grab the launcher opens the internal magazine, allowing one number 6 birdshot to drop out of the linear magazine on top of the gun into the launcher. The muzzle must be elevated for this to work, but that’s the common way most shooters will hold the gun to cock it anyway. When the gun is fired the rubber bands fling the launcher forward. That pushes the birdshot up and into its seat. It is always launched from the same place in the launcher, which is the secret of its accuracy.
The launcher stops moving forward abruptly, sending the shot on its way. It works like a slingshot but is very consistent.
Besides playing with them in the 1960s I didn’t really do anything with Sharpshooter pistols until the late 1990s. I was attending the Roanoke airgun show and it got boring on a Saturday afternoon. My buddy Mac and I had a couple tables there. I had a complete Sharpshooter pistol kit out on my table for sale for $100. It was a kit that has everything — including the original sales receipt from 1942!
The sales receipt from 1942!
So I took the pistol from its box and fitted a rubber band. Then I poured some number 6 birdshot into the magazine — everything was in the box with that gun! Mac had an empty styrofoam coffee cup sitting on a chair next to him and I shot it from about 10 feet away. The cup moved a little and the shot made a small sound when it hit. Mac was intrigued. Since the pistol made no firing sound he didn’t know where the shot had come from. I shot the cup several more times before he caught on. But I was amazed that the gun could be so accurate. So we put the cup out at 12 feet and both of us continued to hit it.
I decided to not sell that gun and today I’m glad I did. There was one on Ebay yesterday with a Buy Now price of $350 and, although it was beautiful, it wasn’t as complete as mine. It is gone today.
John O. Beckwith
I wasn’t aware until researching this report that John O. Beckwith, George’s great uncle, bought the rights to the Bulls Eye Pistol from its inventor, Dr. C. L Bunten. He moved the manufacture from Rawlins Wyoming to La Jolla, California in 1946 or ’47. He bought all the tooling to make the guns and moved it south on his own, with the help of his brother Bud.
A full report
Dean Fletcher wrote a complete report on the Bulls Eye and Sharpshooter pistols for Airgun Review number 2. But in researching material for today’s report I discovered many things I didn’t know before. So this will be a very thorough report on this intriguing little gun.
Launchers/slides/carriers are available
George asked me to tell you that he still has some launchers/slides/carriers available. If anyone needs one, please contact me and I will put you in touch with him.
I find the genius of these guns fascinating! Not only are they repeaters, they even have adjustable sights! Of course that is in the material yet to come.
And by the way, I need a front sight for my pistol that has the new carrier. If anyone has a parts gun and want to sell it, please let me know.
I’m sorry that this report seems a little disjointed, but there is a lot of information to get across. I plan to do a full and thorough test of the guns, but I won’t string them all together. So this could take some time to finish.
161 thoughts on “Sharpshooter pistol resurrection: Part 1”
You forgot to put this link on top: https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2018/10/sharpshooter-rubber-band-catapult-gun-part-4/
How is father doing? I hope all our prayers are helping in his recovery, the Good Lord willing!
My Father is doing well. He is getting back to his usual self. Still in the hospital though. Tomorrow they plan to remove him from the machine and let him breathe on his own. The prayers along with the medicine are surely working.
Good to hear.
You said you where worried about your covid test. Did it come out negative I hope.
This Sharpshooter would be such a great rerelease during the Pandemic!
Looking forward to…The Rest of the STORY!
It sure would be fun to have something like this for indoor recreation in these times.
Maybe George still has the rights to this? However, he would have to move production away from La Jolla, California.
Probably, considered as fireams in NJ!?
Looking at the carrier, it looks like a good candidate for 3D printing replacement parts.
My thoughts exactly!
Thanks for another fascinating look at this little pistol. I am glad that you found another metal carrier. I remember when George mentioned that he had parts and some history. I am glad that the two of you were able to connect.
Those would indeed be fun to play with. The lawyers would have a fit with these things though. No safeties, open moving parts, pinch points, tiny lead projectiles that could easily end up in your mouth (by the handful), on the floor causing a misstep (aayeeaahh) or in your eye (ouch).
They would be fun though.
Come to think of it, the reason there are as many as there are is likely Moms Across America quickly took them away from Junior after he shot Sissy with it and put it in the back of The Closet never to be seen again in his childhood.
The good ole MAA. They save you every time.
And I don’t mean Mothers Against Airguns.
I mean Mothers Across America. 🙂
Us old geezers who like collecting stuff like this owe much to the MAA. Things like this would be nothing more but a faded childhood memory if it was not for them.
Collected several of them a few years ago including an early model Bull’s Eye pistol with a linear marking not in a circle. A challenge to find them.
Glad to hear Siraniko’s dad is much improved; prayers that all us be spared from this nasty “bug” are ongoing. My older sister went thru a very mild case of COVID recently, but she recovered quickly, at home. Seems this disease is pretty binary – either it hits you very hard, or it just “wings” you.
As used to be said in the “Hill Street Blues” series – “Let’s be careful out there!”
The “Great For Social Entertaining” slogan for this interesting shooter today might be changed to “Great For Social Distancing.”
Our healthcare here is relatively up to date. We don’t have the insurance system you guys have over here. Thanks to the Lord our prayers are being answered. I just hope that we are all spared from this disease.
Hooray for George. What a true gentleman for his willingness to help others get their Sharpshooters working again. Hope he makes a few bucks for his bags of “slides/launchers”. Most folks wouldn’t be bothered. Never met George but I like him.
Today’s blog brings back a lot of memories for me. Friday’s are my favorite.
Yes, I know you like and remember Sharpshooters! 😉
It’s still working just fine!
Great to hear. I really appreciate and admire your passion for all things that shoot. It short circuits me when you get chastised for writing about crossbows, catapult guns, salt guns, etc. In my opinion since they shoot they count.
Keep on being you. It works and it’s appreciated.
Amen, Kevin! I agree; I really like that B.B. covers a vast cross section of shooting devices. =>
As for “vast”,… throwing knives have always been an interest. We all know FPE,… so even at a relatively low FPS,… the FPE should still be quite substantial. Kind of like sling shots and a 1/2″ steel ball bearing.
It’s funny that you should mention those two things; I’ve been interested in throwing knives and slingshots since I was a kid. I never became an expert with either, but still enjoy both. I have a set of throwing knives from my son, and another single blade from my wife (along with a video); and I have an awesomely cool slingshot made by Hank (Vana2), which is not too surprising, as he is a true craftsman. =>
Take care & stay safe,
Hi, I just picked up a ’37 Sharpshooter on eBay. Unfortunately, the seller misrepresented the gun and it is missing the launcher/slide! Do you have contact info for parts? I think you mentioned George?
Send an email to me a email@example.com. I’ll get one for you.
Looking at that carrier/slide part , possibly a candidate for MIM , probably reasonable if He had enough made . I doubt you want that printed with plastic . Maybe also metal printer could make a carrier ? Just thinking on the Blog .
I’d live to see an Air Venturi version. Perhaps adopted to use with a bb?
Wow! It is absolutely amazing! Almost no one offers the Umarex Origin!
Another off topic .177 question,
What makes HW98 superior over HW95 or D34 or FWB Sp.?
Can I assume HW98 would be the most accurate .177 breakbarrel springer in the US market today, shooting the furthest targets possible?
The HW98 is designed from the ground up for target shooting. It is very low powered compared to the HW95 and the D34. It is also a lot heavier. The low power and extra mass help to reduce the multiple recoils, vibrations and twists. It also reduces the hold sensitivity issue. I have shot the HW98. They are sweet.
Now as for the FWB Sport, this is Feinwerkbau’s attempt to get back into the game they walked away from many years ago. They left the commoners and turned to the elitists. They concentrated on things suitable for the Olympics. Though it was cheaper than there Olympic offerings, it still had a right hefty price tag. Yes, it is a nice air rifle. Is it worth that much? Hmmmm…
Here is a little about the FWB Sport.
If you dig around you will find where BB talks about the Diana 34 and the HW95. Strangely, he never did anything with the HW98.
You could probably assume correctly that the HW98 is the most accurate “off the shelf” sproinger available today.
If a spring gun is properly lubed , they can all be accurate. Vibration is the enemy of accuracy. The HW98 and HW95 have the same powerplants . The HW98 has the edge in ergonomics . TX200 is a hard gun to beat for accuracy and smoothness though , this is why it is so popular in Field Target for spring gun shooters. In springers You get what you pay for !!
Helpful reply, thanks.
Let’s consider all properly lubed; which one will kick the others’ butts – among .177, breakbarrel springers?
If I could test them, at least hold them, I would be able to make up my mind, but as I’m gonna have to order my next springer online, it’s a gamble – so it’s important for me to learn from other air gunners’ experiences on these rifles I’ve listed.
I’d had thousands of shots with a couple of .177 27s, which both retired. At some point, I stopped counting how many boxes of pellets I’d finished.
Bored of 27s; these days, I want to shoot long distance targets with a break barrel .177 coil springer. I surely do not want under / side levers – at least, I know that much.
Here’s my .177 springer list, HW 80 / 95 / 98, Diana 34 / 350, FWB Sp. Which one would be the most accurate?
I mean, how much I lube a Hatsan Striker, I don’t think it’ll come close to the accuracy of an HW98, I assume.
You are overlooking the Sig ASP20 — it will astound you with accuracy at long range.
Now, that’s a rifle. But it’s a gas piston, and probably a .22 version would be a better option considering how powerful it’s. I’d like to have a coil spring .177; do you think I should reconsider my requirements?
Well, I think I’m gonna stick with the .177 break barrel coil springer decision. Let’s don’t complicate the decision process more than it’s… 🙂
I’ve just read your report on Sig ASP20 and watched the video (in .177) in the link below. I agree this is one of the best. If you can make time for the video, just fast forward it until he shoots 25 yrds and 50 yrds. Even in .177 it rocks – with quite heavy pellets of course. So if the shooter does his/her job, this rifle delivers flawless accuracy in both calibers. Have you ever been wrong, sir?! TY!
Of the ones you mentioned, I consider the HW 98 as the most accurate (say, most easy to shoot accurately). Main reason besides the superb powerplant is the stock. The 98 is heavier and the stock is more target shooting oriented, you don’t want to carry it through the boonies all day long though.
Seems as if it is considering what people say on forum pages and the specs on the paper. Have you ever tried it?
Handled, not shot. I personally like it, and would prefer it to a HW97. But this is a personal gut feeling opinion.
I have the same personal gut feeling.
If you’re a Diana can then a 54/56 will likely be the most accurate for you. Especially if you send it to Hector for tuning.
I have been wanting to get another 54 Air King but it seems no place is listing them for sale anymore.
I had both calibers. And I don’t care what caliber I get now. But I am looking for one.
From other forums,… it seems like a lot of air guns are not available or on long back order,… which you know,… always seems to change (rarely for the better). A lot of people complaining. Pellets too.
This Covid 19 might have been a good thing for the air gun community with renewed interest. As I recall, BB said PA’s orders have been the same level as Christmas time.
PA is out of stuff too.
Was at wall mart the other day and all they had for air gun ammo on the shelf this time was 2 tins of Crosman Piranha pellets and 3 small tubes of the yellow and black Daisy package of bb’s.
I have been trying to get some parts from Crosman as well as other things from them and they don’t seem to have certain things in stock anymore. Almost 100% of the time I could get what I wanted from Crosman but that ain’t the case anymore.
Kind of a bummer. I like choice if you know what I mean.
Crosman went through some management/owner changes,.. if correct? You know how that goes,….. the bean counters say,… “Why are we still stocking parts for guns that are 30 years old???” I hope not. And, the low prices are just awesome. The (call in) with a part # stuff is a bit weird in this day and age though.
Nope that’s not why. I was still getting stuff from Crosman at will after the company change.
Remember Crosman is in New York. They were one ofthe first that got hit hard when covid came about.
I was done back to work for over a month and they was still working from home. They told me they had a limited crew at the company working.
I’m going to have say that covid is the culprit.
They’ll be back soon. Model refresh.
Hope your right.
Maybe? Even older stuff is hard to come by. Can’t even get a Gen. 1 of something,.. a Gen. 2 is still not out. Maybe we will skip right to the Gen. 3? The Blue Book will have a fun time with all that! 😉
Just wait until you read what I say in the next Blue Book about Gen II airguns.
How’s the Blue Book coming? Any chance it will publish this year?
As much as I would like to, I doubt that I will get another copy. Not practical. I have the 11th edition. Maybe you could make your Blue Book entry into one of the blogs for all to read,… assuming you would be allowed to that. I like your stuff in the Blue Book and PA catalog add ins.
Not only vibration but shot cycle and lock time. It all adds up.
Considering all those. I am not asking about the basics of air rifle shooting. I’m asking about experiences and opinions on those particular rifles.
One of my 27s was iron sighed and the other one was scoped. I’ve figured out most of the basics. And I know exactly what you’re trying to tell me; I understand ‘it all depends!’
But still so much could be told on these rifles that I’ve never had the chance to even touch.
And we never stop learning. And yes. Experience is what I go by.
Then you truly know.
I mean if we deeply consider all those details, action time and such, all the roads go to Rome – an expensive PCP. 🙂 I just want a simple .177 coil springer. Maybe I should just drop the HW80 and D350 from the list, it’ll make my inquiry more clear.
Read the response I just wrote to you about exsperiance.
OK! I’ll order a D34 as it’s the cheapest option on my list. And then months later, I’ll buy an HW95; I’ll shoot it until I realize that HW98 was the best decision all those times… I’ll pass that. Instead I’ll hear a few more opinions before making up my mind.
All I can say is have fun while your getting all that exsperiance.
One day it will be important. In more ways than one. Trust me. You will see what I mean.
Actually, well said, my friend.
I say the same thing taking photos – while considering which camera or lens to buy, the opportunities for good photo shots are passing by.
But I’ll give a few more days to this air rifle inquiry thingy and see if someone will come up with a strong concrete opinion or something.
Since we spent all this time talking.
What are you really wanting to do with the air gun you end up with?
And why all of a sudden questions about air guns?
Not try’n to be in your business. But it all does matter ya know. And knowing me I missed something with what you have said about what your after.
I want to shoot long distance targets with a break barrel .177 coil springer – like airgun field target competition, but not to compete or anything, just for fun. I actually learned about HW98 on AAFTA site; I hadn’t even noticed that rifle before. I don’t hunt and bored of casual plinking.
Ok. Now I’m more clear.
So probably out to 50 or 60 yards then I’m guessing you want to shoot at for max distance.
Does it have to be a break barrel?
How about a under lever.
This is kind of a high end gun. But the fit and finish is excellent. They are nice to look at as well as feel when you hold them.
The AirArms TX 200 is what I’m talking about. They are great out of the box and for some reason get better as time goes on. Great guns.
If you only want one springer I believe you would be happy with one.
But then again when people ask questions about guns they seem to have their mind made up already. They ask because they want assurance that they have made a good choice.
If you truly want a break barrel instead of a fixed barrel there are options.
I only said the TX 200 because it sounds like you only want to buy one good one. Or maybe I read you wrong.
Gunfun1, I think I’ve made my decision on HW98. I think you’re right; I’d been seeking some assurance on that. I’ve not heard or read anything negative about it yet.
You can not go wrong with an adjustable butt plate and cheek riser. Those 2 things are HUGE in my book. If you have never had them, you will instantly appreciate them.
Have you asked some or all of these questions on other forums? You do not seem to be finding the answers you are looking for here.
I read other forums and found some answers. Learned about galling issues on some Weihrauchs, barrel droop issues on Dianas, and such. It helped a lot, and I’ve had fun talking and reading about it.
Get this in your mind right off the bat.
Sometimes the things that are brought up are not completely true.
Like the droop problems and such.
Get you a nice quality gun and shoot it. Then you will truly know if it’s what you want. If you like it keep it. If not get another.
From what I have seen there is no perfect air gun for me. Some are way better than others after I have shot them. But perfect. No way.
I’ll just say again. If you want a nice springer that can shoot out to 50 yards and look good doing it to and high quality. Get the AirArms TX 200.
My Beeman R1 (HW80) with a 12 fpe spring mod can be incredibly accurate when I’m in the zone and doing everything right-meaning everything the same. It can shoot tighter groups than my Maximus Euro 12 fpe PCP air rifle. It’s weight really helps to reduce the hold sensitivity.
You know I thought about that a lot. Thanks for letting me know this. I’ve been stuck with the idea of a .177 12FPE’s possible balanced accuracy for a long while actually, but then decided that I’d like to keep the FPE between 800 and 950 with good quality heavy .177 pellets to be able to shoot even further. Then again, all on paper; no actual experience sailing in those uncharted waters.
I think you meant FPS?
IF your desire is to only shoot Field Target distances for entertainment and NEVER have a thought about formal competition then .22 is better than .177. That being said if you ever think you want to compare yourself to Formal FT shooters, even just in your mind, then you can only go the .177 route.
Yes, I meant FPS…
Bite your tongue.
.22 is better than .177? You better wake up.
My tongue is bleeding from all the chomping I was doing as i wrote that! I even was going to have .25 in there and DELETED it. I know, I know! The numbers say go with .58 cal and just blow the whole dang target to smithereens!
Ok I buy that.
Blow that darn target away. I don’t care what that target looks like. If that gun blows it away it was all worth it. 🙂
I believe I’ve own–or have owned—most all the rifles on your list. So, if you said, “Hey, lets go shoot some steel reactive targets from 25 to 65+ yards with springers!”, I’m bringing the HW 98. If you hadn’t said ‘springer’, I’d probably bring the .22 Marauder. I’ve owned a TX200 in .22, a HW77 in .20. Currently have a 97k in .20 and a ProSport in .22.. The underlevers are great. tuned, smooth, accurate. I enjoy the variety, but they’re heavier and a bit slower to load than the break barrels. I’ve intentionally stayed away from .177 in underlevers as I find the pellets difficult to handle in the sliding compression chamber. Just my preference. In the HW break barrels, the HW80’s are great distance shooters. Though, I did find the shorter carbine length barrel (this used to be an option on some of the HW80’s.–maybe not anymore) becomes a chore to cock after 30 or so shots. The standard barrels extra leverage compared to the carbine makes a big difference after a long evening shooting. I had a HW 85 (Beman R10) in .20 that was every bit as accurate as the HW98 at longer ranges. It was probably my favorite break barrel as it was lighter and easier to cock than the HW 80 guns and I found those slightly larger pellets easier to handle. The older FWB 124 could also be a strong contender and is much easier to cock than many of todays break barrel guns though its harder to scope…
Now, this comment helps a lot!
.177 HW98 seems to be the best option for me. Yours is also .177, I assume…
Yes, my HW98 is a .177.
I understand that there are a lot of factors to consider and they can be dynamic. What I needed (or perceived to need) 20 years ago isn’t what’s important right now. I’ve certainly come to realize that my airgun needs are now mostly dictated by the spaces most conveniently available to shoot. I don’t have the ability to shoot in the backyard anymore, so that changed what I consider to be my go-to airguns.
I appreciate the adjustable cheek piece and butt pad on the HW98. Its really nice to be able to make the stock fit your proportions. If you’ve ever had a rifle fit you perfectly, you’ll immediately notice when a rifle doesn’t. I have an older UTG 4-16X on the 98 with UTG mounts. Seems like a good combination of magnification to match the range of this rifle model. Mine isnt pellet picky. Likes most medium to heavy domes. The older boxed Crosman premiers and the HN Barakudas shoot great. The newer Crosman Premiers and HPs do just fine, too.
Thanks alot, man! This helps me considerably. Now, I can move on with my life. 😀
I wonder if B.B. would like to write a report on this fine rifle one day. I searched his blogs, but couldn’t find one.
On every forum I’ve read on his inquiry, the air gunners, who owned both the 95 and 98, recommended the 98 over 95 with flying colors. They didn’t even mention any conditions or anything; their answers were direct without a room for a doubt. I think HW98 is the best rifle in my list. Ty again!
You can cock a 12fpe R1 all day long with that long barrel. I would say the cocking force is around 27-28 lbs. The only problem is the recoil with that long chamber stroke.
Enlil-buy the 98. It sounds like the gun you really want and it will save you money in the long run. The Record triggers are fantastic! And thanks for generating all the springer talk. If I could buy a 12 fpe Giss break barrel springer, I’d never buy another PCP.
Our resources here are so stretched that we still don’t have enough facilities to test everyone adequately. My test had been delayed by a week already. Fortunately I was able to secure a slot next week. I have been in quarantine this part week and so far no symptoms. I sure could have used this Sharpshooter inside the room while in isolation.
Hoping and will pray you and yours have favorable outcomes.
So do I. My family is living in fear due to the scarcity of available facilities for patients. It’s easy to ignore the plight of people you don’t know. It’s impossible when they are friends and family.
There are many on this blog praying for your family. I believe God wants lots of people praying for a single person or family. I have already experienced the power of many folks praying for me.
I too have seen the power of prayer when my cousin who had a stroke and a heart attack while admitted in the hospital for a previous stroke awakened with his mind relatively intact. He had undergone CPR for nearly an hour. I had expected him to be a vegetable if he woke up. Our clan has been praying nightly for his recovery and the Lord granted us a miracle. We continue our prayers for healing and recovery although separated from each by being half a world away.
I have wondered how across our world the covid has made terrible hard ship for people.
I just can’t imagine.
I hope and pray more and more it gets done with.
May this pandemic be but a bad memory in our near future.
What I mean by shot cycle is how hard the gun bumps when you fire the gun.
Lock time is I mean how quick the cycle is from when you pull the trigger to when the gun bumps.
Maybe I’m calling it wrong but that’s how I keep it straight in my mind.
I guess I’m making up new terms. I see I need to think more.
Hey I think you have it right. Lock time is the time taken from trigger release to pellet or bullet starting forward. Cycle time would be time from trigger release until projectile exits muzzle. What say you BB?
I call lock tome the time from when the sear releases until the pellet exits the muzzle. Should I explain this in a blog sometime?
That is what I would call shot cycle,.. “from when the sear releases until the pellet exits the muzzle”. The (complete) firing cycle.
I thought that lock time was (for example) like a flint lock or a cap rifle. The hammer drops and then there is pause before the combustion starts.
I am sure you have explained this before but would not know where to look. It may well be too that it is one of those terms that get interchanged frequently, like magazine and clips.
Like Chris I thought lock time was a term used to describe the delay or pause before ignition. Maybe began with match locks. Not certain but I think Carel refers to lock time for 10 meter competition rifles. One would think delay may affect accuracy.
Well, here is at least 1/2 the answer,…..
That definition is incorrect. It has been made up by someone who doesn’t know what lock time refers to.
And that is why we have you!!!! 🙂 Sounds like time for a refresher.
I consider Cardew an expert on this topic and he agrees with B.B. or vice versa.
Not matchlocks — flintlocks. I can see I need to address this.
Yep that will be a good report.
Thanks, I look forward to you doing it.
Have you guys also noticed that most of the air guns on the PA site are out of stock? I think the US air gun market will look quite different after the pandemic; I predict to see more American air guns in the future…
I’ve just found out that the fibre optic front sight on Diana 34 could be removed. I think that’s the best feature of that front sight; you can remove it and throw it away. 😀
This video by Tyler Patner may be of interest to you. He is comparing underlever air rifles with breakbarrel air rifles in .177 caliber. One of the rifles in his test is an HW 97K. This is quite interesting.
Interesting video. TY!
One thing that I am sure that you are aware of, break barrels can have the pivot pin/bolt come loose or get sloppy,… or be sloppy a bit right from the start. Of course, how (well) does the barrel lock up? (How) does it lock up? Some are better than others and some pins/bolts can be adjusted or at least shimmed. I say all of this with regards to under levers and side levers in which the (barrels are fixed). But pretty sure I recall that you did not want either of those. As I recall, the SIG ASP20 has a good lock up system.
I’ve just watched this. Awesome rifle.
Then again, there is this. 🙂 Just see what it does in 50 yrds.
JUST GET THE HW98!
I have been thinking (uh oh) about a delay in the time from sear release to muzzle exit. Just wondering if a bench rest shooter might benefit from a known time delay. The trigger pull requires some finger movement ever how minimal. But if the sear can be made to release only after finger movement is done any hand shaking has stopped before the bullet/pellet starts down the barrel. Maybe this is being done unbeknowing to me. Maybe electric triggers make this a moot point.
I have talked about the lock time shortness before and will probably need to a few more times. The time the pellet spends in the the barrel from start of gas impulse to muzzle exit is no more than three milliseconds.
Now for the meat of the discussion: so in a spring piston powerplant the Sear normally releases the compression piston and that Mass moves forward compressing a volume of air that is ported into the barrel behind the pellet. Close to the end of the pistons travel the pellet starts moving down the bore of the barrel. Just as that projectile is really getting going the piston slams into the stop. Also, just like a hammer slamming a Glockenspiel it rings that barrel like crazy! And, the pellet exits the muzzle at slightly different angles, because of that vibration, relative to the line of sight every firing cycle because of that vibration! In SSP, MPP, and PCP the mechanical Sear simply releases a Hammer/Striker that hits a Knock Open valve or Dump valve and air is ported to the barrel behind the projectile most of the movement is small Mass over far shorter distances compared to the Spring Piston and nothing is ringing the barrel beside the blast of gas. A variation is a non Sear, typically a Solenoid, controlled valve is a possibility but still quite rare.
The above discussion should make it clear(er) why the Pneumatic powerplant is typically far more accurate by the inherently shorter lock time and also much less metal Mass in motion during the projectiles travel down and out of the bore.
So the human moving during three or fewer milliseconds is not going to cause much of the accuracy degradation; that is most all the result of inherent design. That’s the reason for GISS Systems, TIAT, Wiscome design and a bunch of other engineering hoops that designers of accurate Springers need to jump through. The Pneumatics have almost none of that, just Hammer Capture and general reduction of Mass and dwell time in the Lock/Valve mechanism.
Wow! That was just supposed to be a thumbnail sketch…Oh well! Probably clear as mud….
“A variation is a non Sear, typically a Solenoid, controlled valve is a possibility but still quite rare.”
I suppose that as long as the Red Wolf works,… it is at the front of the pack? 😉
Do I detect some ownership Bias!
The issue with solenoid valves is still a matter of current, switching and magnetic repeatability.
I think we have a great many areas where all of the powerplants and fire control systems could see improvement.
I wonder how much of a braking action our current Pandemic will have on Worldwide airgun and other non Novel Coronavirus related R&D! Will we see a similar fall off as was the case after the Spanish Influenza Pandemic?
I noticed that in Berlin, Stuttgart, and a few other major German cities massive street protests over loss of Freedom through government restrictions and mandates are happening today!. None of that bodes well for the true engine of Research & Development; Capitalism’s knack of spending a portion of profits to make more profit. Just more authoritarian bureaucratic overreaching will be the order of the day in the EU and elsewhere.
I just so happen to be watching “Life, Liberty and Levin” at the moment. Nuff said.
As for bias???? Who me???? Well, you do bring up some good points,.. which seem to have been upped in the current Safari version. As long as it works, it is great. The moment it don’t,… I am up a fast moving creek with a twig for a paddle! 🙁 Next? Chop off a small tree with my carry knife for a club? 😉 Jump in Yogi!,… yup,… springers win out! 🙂
Good points you bring up,….. Chris
You may or may not have seen this:
I found it in the footnotes of the Wikipedia article you linked above in a reply to Deck.
I read a lot prior to getting it, but do not recall seeing that. That is a good basic read.
The opener to the article:
“An airguns firing cycle – the brief moment that elapses between the trigger’s sear being slipped and the pellet exiting the barrel – is more commonly called its lock time. It’s quick, typically lasting 15 milliseconds or less. Yet it is a vital characteristic of any airgun. In fact, lock time is a key reason why some guns are easier or ‘more forgiving’ to shoot than others.
In theory, the faster the lock time, the more accurate the rifle, though lock time is actually the sum of two other ‘times’ that, individually, contribute to an airguns overall firing cycle. These are the action time and the barrel time.”
Thank you. I think that adds nicely to the topic of lock time and shot cycles.
Remember that was probably an Englishman who wrote that fine description! Biscuits = Cookies, Cookies = Barf! So in the King’s English they call it Lock Time… We mightcall it Tea Time in other countries!
They do have a unique way of speaking. “Fine bit of kit you have there Mate”. Or if having an issue,… “I hope that you get it all sorted soon”. Many others. Most everyone on the DOC site is from the other side of the pond. Not to mention all of the small countries in such a small area,.. in the mix. I do enjoy it though.
Good info. I have several pneumatic guns, couple of vintage 10 meter guns, a Walther LG55, two Weihrauchs and a Diana 34 that likes to think it can lick any of the above at 25 yards. All these have German barrels including four Lothar Walthers. But I also have a number of break barrels that are difficult to extract accuracy potential due to triggers and piston slamming. My term for this forward recoil is shot cycle. This report that BB may do will get into this hopefully. My diatribe about lock time delay was just wondering what help could be given to overcome trigger pull twitching inaccuracy on a firearm or airgun shooting from a benchrest.
I mistakenly use the word diatribe above. Rather it was just my imagination running wild outside the box.
Hopefully BB will show some sketches of what it all means. That will help make it more clear.
That will be in my discussion. It is somehting shooters feel is important.
It sounds like we have a interesting subject coming up.
I think you meet the nicest people shooting air guns. Thank you everyone for your time and recommendations…
As usual, after learning about different views, I’ll only listen to myself at the end of the day. I’ve decided to go with a .177 R7/30S with iron sights…
For long distance fun, I’ll use a cheap AO scope & a PCP – Marauder or AirForce…
FINAL choice????? 😉
I know it’s hard to believe, but this is my final choice.
You can’t go wrong with the R7/HW30S. May buy something else later but I’m guessing you will hang onto this one.
The R7/30S is the final choice, of course. The scoped one…
Others may chime in here. I have not been happy with CenterPoint scopes. It has been a long time ago maybe they are better now. I would go with a Hawk or UTG scope rated for a Springer.
Check this one out.
I think it is rated up to a 12 ft-lb springer based on a comment by Tyler.
Not sure which rings will fit the R7 dovetail so check that out.
I’ll check it out. I’ll use the R7 with the iron sights only. I’d like to buy a PCP for the longer range scope fun.
The HW30S is an awesome air rifle. I bought one for my grandson. As it comes, it has very nice iron sights. These can then be upgraded should you decide to do such. PA has a front globe sight with replaceable inserts. That will be the next upgrade for him, along with the old FWB rear aperture I picked up a while back.
Stay away from Centerpoint scopes.
Sounds good. I did not catch the question in your:
The scoped one…
On a pcp I usually go with a more powerful scope. That said I have that scope on my .177 Fortitude and it is a great combination.
Chris was giving me a hard time, because it took me a while to make the R7 decision. I was just joking in regards to that. To be more clear, I should’ve said, “I’ve figured out the springer situation, but the scoped PCP decision will probably take even longer time…” It was already not a very good joke, and explaining it made it even worse. 😀
R7/30S is the best 177 iron sighted springer decision as R7’s quality is the best out there for the purpose, and owning that rifle still doesn’t cost an arm and a leg – so all worth it the price tag.
About PCP & scope, I’ve decided not to get carried away. FlashQE .177 + Optima 3-12X50AO should do just fine. Adding a hand pump onto that combo shall keep the price at around $500…
I admire a man that does very thorough homework,… but in your case,….. 😉
We are more alike than different on doing homework, so I can appreciate you trying to get it right the first time. Very few of us have unlimited funds and we need to make it count.
That said,… my taste did change,.. as I suppose anyone’s hobby does. Like they say,… you have to either * or get off the pot,.. at some point! 😉
Even with unlimited funds, being frugal is a smart thing to do – not cheap, just thrifty! Being cheap on the other hand, is just wastefulness in the long run.
I am all about smart, thrifty and frugal! 🙂 Then when you want to pull the trigger on something,…. you got it!
Umarex Origin comes with the hand pump for $300. Just add scope and pellets.
It seems like I recall Tyler Patner a while ago stating that the R7 is the same rifle as the HW30s. The big difference is that the R7 has a lifetime warranty and the HW30s has a one year warranty. That would make the decision an easy one for me.
The physical difference is mainly the stock. With the beech stock, it’s an easy decision; R7 is ambi, so my left handed friends can enjoy it too.
30S can also be bought with different kinds of wood; it has an ambi synthetic version too. It can even come with stainless finish. There is also a combo version that comes with a scope and a silencr instead of sights. Recently, some 30S models come with lifetime warranty.
I’m not too worried about the warranty though. Any manufacturing flaw will show up within a year. For me, with warranties, what is covered is more important than the length.
Either one you choose Weihrauch makes it. If mine is typical and I believe it is, this rifle will outlast you, your kids and grans. Think ‘98 Mauser quality in the best years. It’s there in this one too.
I am usually the last one to catch on. You need to get my attention with a 2×4 upside my head. So don’t worry about me not catching on.
There are now many economy pcpneumatics on the market that are really good. I have a Yong Heng compressor and think it is great for filling guns. I believe the key is to only run it for a short time less than a minute. It fills all my guns in less than a minute.
I will be following B.B.’s review of the AV Avenger it may be one of the best for the money.
I have one of these. I have given it the coveted 3R rating. Unless you are shooting 100+ yards, this is all you really need. The clarity is incredible.
The only negative for this scope is it will not take what the uber magnum sproingers dish out. I am trying mine out right now on my Webley/Hatsan Tomahawk in a Diana ZR mount. It is not broken yet (fingers crossed). If the ZR mount delivers in the accuracy department, I will be tickled pink.
Does anyone know if/what anything has happened to Rick Rehm (Shooter1721)?
I have heard/seen at least one reference of such.
I was digging around a bit more just now and it seems he had a heart attack. I for one hope and pray he recovers soon.
No matter where I looked, I came up with nothing updated. But yea,… that happened about a month ago. I do not have Facebook or whatever, but that might have the most current info..
Checked on his Facebook page. He got home July 12 and is slowly getting back into the game. No trick shots posted yet.
Thank you. Hopefully no permanent effects.
Rick just posted a new video yesterday. He looks good following the recent heart attack.
Hop over to GTA. Someone linked a new video by him. Shooting .457? (knurled) slugs from a Texan. It is a new video as he mentions his recent “vacation” at the end. The post is tiled,… Shooter 1721.
From GTA site,…
“He’s become part of the GRIP team. He will be posting under the GRIP gate. He’s doing much better since his heart attack”
Well after seeing all the discussion on lock time and all the things involved.
What it all comes down to is how the gun feels when the trigger is pulled.
We can talk all day long about what all the terms mean. But what does that mean. All it did was make us understand what happens when the gun fires. Which is a good thing.
So what I see out of all of this is why tuning a gun can makes a difference.
So do you think it makes a difference between the time the trigger is pulled and how hard the (spring gun or firearm bumps)? I do.
Yes that too.
I do my best when my follow through continues until I see the hole in the target.
Shoot a flintlock and it is easier to get a feel for the process.
Yep. Got to have follow through.
Good choice to go with the HW98 it is a smooth , quality gun .