Walther LGR Universal: Part 3

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Walther LGR
Walther LGR.

Part 1
Part 2

History of airguns

This report covers:

  • Off the track
  • RWS Hobby
  • Qiang Yuan Match Grade
  • RWS R10 Pistol
  • Could I do it again?
  • RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle
  • Shooting behavior
  • Summary

Today we test the Walther LGR for accuracy.

The test

I shot the rifle from 10 meters off a sandbag rest. Because the LGR is a pneumatic, it laid directly on the bag. I shot 5-shot groups at 10-meter air rifle targets. Let’s get started.

Off the track

Do you ever have a shooting day when you just know you aren’t doing your best? That was how I felt for for this test. I was just shooting at 90 percent instead of where I usually am. I tell you that to get you ready for some targets. I thought I did poorly but after measuring the groups I see it was better than I first thought.

RWS Hobby

I sighted-in and shot the first group with RWS Hobby pellets. As I’ve said many times Hobbys often surprise me with their accuracy and this was one such time. Since I’m shooting with target sights I can’t blow my aim point away, so I adjusted the sights to hit the center of the bull. Once sighted in for Hobbys I didn’t adjust the sights again. That 3.8mm clear front sight aperture is perfect!

Five Hobbys went into 0.186-inches between centers at 10 meters. For some reason the group looks larger than that so I measured it three times and took the largest measurement.

Walther LGR Hobby group
Five Hobbys went into 0.186-inches at 10 meters. Yes β€” it’s below 0.2-inches so it’s trimeworthy!

Qiang Yuan Match Grade

Next I tried 5 Qiang Yuan Match Grade pellets. These are the ones in the yellow box that don’t seem to be available anymore. They are closer to the Olympic Grade than to the Training pellets. Five went into 0.182-inches, which is the smallest group of the test. It looked even better than that through the spotting scope but when I put a flap of paper back in place the group grew on me.

Walther LGR Chinese Match group
The LGR put 5 Qiang Yuan Match Grade pellets into 0.182-inches at 10 meters.

RWS R10 Pistol

The man who sold me the rifle said it likes RWS R10 Pistol pellets, so I had high hopes for the next group. Unfortunately I shot the second-largest group of the test β€” at 0.279-inches between centers.

Walther LGR R10 Piston group
Five RWS R10 Pistol pellets went into a group that measures 0.279-inches between centers at 10 meters.

Could I do it again?

Clearly I wasn’t shooting my best in this test. But the Qiang Yuan Match pellet did so well that I wondered whether I could do it again. Maybe I wasn’t firing on all cylinders but was I at least consistent?

Another 5 Qiang Yuan pellets went into 0.199-inches at 10 meters. That’s not as good as before, but, given that group of R10 Pistol pellets I just shot, it looks like I am consistent.

Walther LGR Chinese Match group
On the second try the LGR put five Qiang Yuan Match pellets in 0.199-inches at 10 meters.

RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle

The last pellet I tried was the RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle pellet. Five of them went into 0.298-inches at 10 meters, which was the largest group of the test.

Walther LGR Meisterkugeln Rifle group
The LGR put five RWS Meisterkugeln pellets into 0.298-inches at 10 meters. It’s the largest group of the test.

Shooting behavior

The LGR shoots like a fine 10-meter rifle. I expected to shoot some gold dollar groups (smaller than 0.15-inches) today, but it didn’t happen.

The trigger is superb! Is it as “good” as an FWB 300 trigger? I think it is, but no amount of numbers (pull weight, etc.) is going to prove that to anybody. It’s a subjective judgement call.

The LGR is recoilless. The 300 is not recoilless β€” it slides backwards inside the stock. You don’t “feel” the recoil except where the eyeshade pushes against your eye or glasses. So, from that standpoint, the Walther LGR is easier to shoot than an FWB 300.

Summary

When I started this series I told you that the Walther LGR was the first 10-meter air rifle I ever saw and it is one I have wanted to shoot ever since. Now I have, but because I was off my game today I am still not satisfied. At some point in the future I will return to the LGR and hope to shoot better groups. I’m even toying with an FWB 300 versus Walther LGR test, though I don’t know how that would go. Concentrating on targets takes a lot of effort, so how do I make such a test fair? I am giving it some thought.

This LGR is not shooting as fast as many of them do, but I did check it out and the piston is adjusted correctly. I see no reason to do anything to the rifle, other than shoot it and enjoy it.

75 thoughts on “Walther LGR Universal: Part 3

  1. B.B.,

    So it can shoot worth the trime. Your best shot with the FWB 300s still beats it with the H&N Finale Match Rifle pellet. Five of them went onto a group measuring 0.097 inches. Maybe a shoot off at the 25 yard mark between the two would be comparable since pushing the range at 50 yards would make it into a range too far. At 25 yards diopter sights will be sufficient to see the target without requiring you to put a scope on both rifles.

    Siraniko

    PS: Section Could I do it again? Second paragraph First sentence: “Another 5 Qiang Yuan pellets went into 0.199-inches at 120 (10) meters.”




      • RidgeRunner,

        The LGR does scope easily, unlike the FWB 600 series. I would have bought an LGR many years ago if it weren’t for the cocking lever that provides no leverage whatsoever.

        Michael



        • Diana Grl
          I owned the 46e that RidgeRunner has.

          I liked that it was a under lever but the loading trap is junk like RidgeRunner said in a round about way.

          I like the tap loaders that roll down to line the port up with the breech.



            • Diana Grl
              In the trap. That’s why I don’t like the angled tap the 46e has. It will shear the skirt of the pellet if you don’t deep seat the pellet before you close the trap.

              The rolling tap you do the same. But you can push the pellet flush in the tap loader before you roll it closed.


              • I see now, pellet is inserted into the barrel. It should be accurate then, if the pellet is deeply seated.
                The question is does it make the loading safer for the finger in case of an accidental firing? Otherwise it seems to me as a pointless mech. This shouldn’t be a concern for LGR of course. This one is a 46E question.


                • Diana Grl
                  I believe what they was trying to do with the 46e was make a easier way to load the pellet. Just tap the door and it opens and then touch it closed. But they apparently didn’t take into account about seating the pellet deeper.

                  And with the guns that the tap rolls closed could be a safety feature. Because when the block/breech is open the transfer port is blocked. I never thought about that before. See you got ole Gunfun1 thinking today. πŸ˜‰


                • Diana Grl,

                  The 46E is indeed very safe for the fingers. It is also very difficult to accidently fire as it has the typical Diana automatic safety.

                  The difficulty in loading arises because unlike the LGR, the barrel does not protrude into the loading port. Where you are loading the pellet is an angled surface that has “sharp” edges. Because of the angled surface, if you do not insert the pellet far enough, the end of the skirt can be crushed, ruining aerodynamics. The 46E would benefit greatly from a lead in of the breech.

                  The 46E was Diana’s answer to the HW97 and the TX200. It is not a powerhouse as it was never meant to be, but it has a sweet trigger and is very accurate. Also, unlike these two it has open sights and can accept a scope.



                    • Diana Grl,

                      As GF1 mentioned, tap loaders are nice also. I have a couple of them. They also “suffer” from having a long transfer port, though not as bad as these.

                      The Gamo CFX and CFR had a rotating breech. This design caused for a long transfer port which reduced their power. A CFX was my first air rifle. It was extremely accurate, but it was also extremely hold sensitive.


  2. That 3.8mm clear front sight aperture is perfect!

    B.B.

    Wish you would post a picture of “perfection”. Perfection does not happen very often now a days…
    Wish I could shoot one hole groups like that? Now watch RR say, “Get an LGR and you can”!

    Have a safe weekend everybody!

    -Yogi


    • Yogi,

      LOL! Here I am, but I am not going to say it. Why bother, you already know.

      The clear front sight is awesome to use. It is a round piece of plexiglass with a specific diameter hole drilled in the center. The hole also has countersunk sides so that on one side of the plexiglass the hole is larger in diameter than on the other side.

      What all this does is when you look through the rear aperture at the front sight, you see a black edged circle floating in mid air.

      The front sights come in various diameter holes that can easily be switched out to match the size of the target. What BB is saying is when he looks through the rear aperture, the 3.8mm hole he sees floating in the air is the correct distance from his eye to the target and the hole edge fits the circumference of the target exactly. He centers the target in the hole and “bink”, bullseye!


      • RR

        I have a clear front insert for my FWB300S. I like it with one exception; the traditional inserts are easier to square with a square target holder to avoid canting variation. Useful when trying to preserve the bull and intentionally avoiding shooting it out.

        Deck


  3. There should be a market for a modern, accurate single (our double/triple) stroke pneumatic with a good trigger. Yet, they are very rare. All that’s out there are basically PCPs with integral pump, a few relatively simple multi pump pneumatics and the Daisy target rifles.


    • Mel83,

      There is a market. The problem becomes keeping the price down to where it is affordable. To build an air rifle to this quality level will push the price well over $1000. No one wants to pay that, most especially since you can buy something like this for half that or even less.

      Why do you think I buy these antique air rifles? The quality of these old gals is phenomenal. They are made of machined steel and high grade walnut. With just a little care my grandson will be able to pass these on to his grandson or granddaughter.

      The market in the USA wants MORE SPEED!, MORE POWER!, LONGER RANGES!. What the market is trying to do is turn air rifles into powder burners. How far can they go? I do not know. Now if you want to talk powerful big bore airguns, check out the USS Vesuvius.

      πŸ˜‰


      • I own an LGR too and agree on its superb quality. However, O firmly believe that a pneumatic along the lines of a Benjamin marauder etc. Would find a market. Or, say, a Benjamin Sheridan with better scope mount options and a better trigger.


        • Webley tried to bring an SSP to market a few years ago called the Paradigm. It was reported in some of the UK magazines and there’s still a video up on YouTube. Never saw it for sale and I don’t think it ever went to production. Guessing that cost, likely weight and likely market share against PCPs killed it.

          The designer was Grahm Trim. Google finds a few more posts on his site. Some of his prototypes come up for sale occasionally.

          (I’ve got a prototype of one of his PCPs which has some interesting design features. Doesn’t hold air and I’ve not worked out how to strip it to see if it can be resealed)


      • RidgeRunner,
        I think the price could be kept under $1000, and it would be the go to rifle for everyone who’s about ~10 meter shooting.
        You’ve been changing my mind about the antique rifles by the way. I cannot be anymore agree with you on this matter. Still, I have hope for the new tech stuff; they’ll eventually get it.
        The US market is wrong, very wrong. This kind of trend is an issue with other things as well, cars, bikes, boats, and such. Especially, with springers, a smart market should demand improvement with the balanced power; R&D money should be put into quality, not power.
        Simple is good and beautiful.



        • Diana Grl,

          You ARE catching on. Once we get old and “mature” a bit, we figure out it does not matter how quickly we get there as long as we make it.

          In the UK, those blokes are killing small game at 50+ yards with less than 12 FPE at the muzzle. In the European market there are gazillions of these “antiquated” 10 meter air rifles and pistols floating around for sale. Carel, who occasionally pops in here, has a thriving business selling these things to us geezers on this side of the pond.

          You can get into new 10 meter air rifles for around $1000.

          https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Hammerli_AR20_Pro_Air_Rifle_Hot_Red/3230

          If you shop around you can find others even cheaper. I know, you want a SSP, not a PCP. Right now there is not enough of a market for most companies to invest in designing and manufacturing such. It is the nature of the beast. If the profit is not there, it is not going to happen.


          • But that Hammerli is not what Mel83 wants; it has to have a side lever like LGR. Right?
            Europeans are wrong too; 7J, 12J ‘magnums’ and such have gotta be boring after a while!?



              • I’m against hunting, but if people want to hunt with springers, they should shoot .22 or .25 sized hollowpoint pellets using magnum air rifles – at close distances, not 50 yrds. One of Hatsan’s elephants will be fine; I believe they even provide a .30 one. That being said, I was wrong about the US market. People here want to hunt; as I don’t hunt, I completely blocked that fact out. So… It has to be the distributers and manufacturers’ fault then. I met many American air gunners who tuned down their .177 48s, 97s, and such down to 12 FPE. Introducing those 12 FPE .177s to the US market won’t require manufacturers like Diana and Weihrauch to get back to the drawing board and invent the wheel; they’ve already been selling 12 FPE versions of their powerful rifles to the UK, haven’t they? If they ever offered 12FPE .177 48s, 77s, 97s, and such on PA site, those rifles would be out of stock in days in my opinion.
                Let’s wait and see what Mel83 will say about that Aspen…


    • It could even be a springer. They could replace the low quality parts on AV TR5 PRO, improve the trigger, barrel and such, and make it a singleshot.
      Well, TR5 was not a very good example, but I’m trying to tell that fun things can be done while keeping the price at a reasonable range.




  4. B.B.

    The LGR is a SSP and the FWB 300 is a springer so while it would be an interesting test to compare these two 10 meter rifles it would be an apples to oranges comparison.

    A truer test would be between the LGR and one of the FWB 600 series rifles if you have access to one.

    Either way it would be fun to have a little competition to how the two rifles stack up.

    I like the pulse of power I feel when shooting a 30-50 fpe PCP but the dead calm shot cycle of one of these ultra precise 10 meter target rifles makes me smile every time. Awesome rifles!

    Happy Friday everyone! Stay safe!
    Hank


    • Hank,

      Believe it or not, they are not “dead calm”. I would lay my FWB 601 on my denim bags and only touching the trigger enough to fire it, the 601 would slide back about 1/2 inch. In the later FWB 600 series they tried to compensate for this recoil.

      Recoil compensators, air strippers, yadayadayada. A lot of R&D time and money go into these 10 meter air rifles and air pistols. If you miss, it is you.


      • RR,

        I’ll have to try that – I never noticed any movement when shooting my 603, but then I am focused on the sight picture.

        Yeah, lots of gadgets, the 603 has some sort of growth on the left side of the breech that is supposed to compensate for the acceleration of the pellet… guess that it works.

        That is the thing with 10 meter rifles – there are no excuses for a miss – it is always obvious who botched the shot πŸ™‚

        Hank


  5. B.B.,

    You had me continually reading the text and going back to the targets and back again and again. Your descriptions were of an off-day, but those targets look pretty good to me! Granted, it was ten meters and a world-class, for its era, ten meter air rifle, but those groups still look tight to my eyes.

    I say good shooting.

    Michael


  6. BB

    The pellet holes don’t appear to be as clean as expected. Hard to measure torn holes. Painters tape backing sometimes helps.

    Very interested in a shoot out with the FWB300S. If you decided on 25 yards the measuring gets easier. Another thought is to use the military test: Shoot 5 shots each at 5 targets and figure the 5 group average with an attaboy awarded for the smallest group. This would mean 25 shots for each rifle but the penalty for a flier is not as severe.

    Whatever you decide I will be following with interest.

    Deck


  7. BB, what about the idea that there is no difference between the two competing designs
    when it comes to accuracy, at least not a measurable one. It’s really about cost of manufacture
    and of ownership. On Tuesday the 300 shoots better, but on Wednsday the SSP does, so you need to shoot each rifle allot to get an average. I wonder how many ‘sausages’ you get to shoot before a FWB300s or an LGR
    needs a qualified mechanic to tune it up? Is the 300 harder to cock than an LGR,
    because if it is not, then that is the same difference between an ‘old’ LGR and a new PCP
    rifle, mainly, how much effort you need to cock it, never mind all of equipment to keep a PCP going.
    I would guess the old FWB is harder to work on. Nice pieces tho!
    Rob


  8. 1stblue ,

    You are correct the FWB-300 is harder to service than a LGR . The FWB-300 is not as hard as everyone thinks as long as the trigger unit stays together as a module. I can rebuild one in 1.5 to 2 hours and this is complete cleanup of parts which can be bad when the seals turn to wax . Usually a FWB-300 costs about $125.00 to $150 dollars for labor and seal set . I have lost count of how many I have rebuilt at Air Venturi . They bring a smile to my face on everyone I rebuild . Absolute works of art , best spring rifles ever manufactured .

    Gene Salvino


    • Gene
      I know I have had the FWB 300 that I have now together and apart at least a dozen times when I was modding it.I even replaced trigger parts that I got from our Olympic gun builder. You know who I mean.

      They are different guns. And they for sure show their stuff. I wish I could own a dozen of them. And yes I would shoot them all. For sure.


  9. “I’m even toying with an FWB 300 versus Walther LGR test, though I don’t know how that would go. Concentrating on targets takes a lot of effort, so how do I make such a test fair? I am giving it some thought.”
    B.B.,
    Would it be possible to shoot them both in a machine rest, like a padded vise attached to a heavy bench? Or might that skew things in favor of the LGR, since it is fully pneumatic? *shrugs* I think you my have said once that you don’t like machine rests…I can’t remember…it’s been a long week…brain not fully functional. =)~
    Have a nice weekend,
    dave



  10. Perhaps you might bring in another trusted shooter for the LGR vs. FWB test? Double team it. A couple of groups apiece with each rifle?Even if one of you were having off day the result should be fairly clear in comparing groups.


  11. A question for the group. I have a couple AR-15 replica airsoft guns that a friends widow gave me. One appears to be battery powered, the other has a real small quick connect. Both were made in Japan, ASGK is the mfg Mark. I don’t think either are working, one has a cracked upper and the other has an old nicad 8.4 volt battery, long dead I imagine. Are these trash or is there interest in these, maybe for parts?


    • MMCM13,

      No clue. Checked the used market yet? If nothing else,… when you have some spare time, tear them apart and see how they work. I would. Then,… you can shoot all of the parts with pellet guns,… the way we used to do with plastic car models and bb guns when we were kids. πŸ™‚ Just an idea.

      Chris


    • MMCM13,

      ASGK is not a manufacturer. Rather some kind of Japanese industry organization that self-regulates the weapons and toy weapons manufacturers to conform with Japan’s onerously stringent laws.

      hth,

      shootski



    • Enlil,

      Oh, they are out there and can be had. Air rifles and air pistols of this quality very rarely end up in a landfill. Usually someone will enjoy it for a time and then sell it to someone else or passes it on to the kids or ends up having a big estate auction. I have seen one or two of these for sale very recently.

      I am telling you guys, the market for these old ten meter airguns is alive and well. They can be had and for a lot less than what they can be made for today. A rifled barrel of this quality will be well north of $200.



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