Walther LGR Universal: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Walther LGR
Walther LGR.

Part 1

History of airguns

This report covers:

  • LGR Universal
  • Velocity RWS R10 Pistol pellets
  • Velocity Gamo Match pellets
  • Velocity RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle
  • What I didn’t tell you
  • Oh phooey!
  • Pumping effort
  • Trigger
  • Summary

Today we look at the velocity and other performance of the Walther LGR Universal rifle. And the first thing to note is I have changed the model name.

LGR Universal

Reader Kevin pointed out that my rifle is an LGR Universal. What distinguishes it as a Universal are several things. The walnut stock was found on the Universal but not on the basic LGR. That one had a beech stock. The walnut Universal stock was also stippled at the pistol grip and on the forearm. The adjustable cheekpiece and buttpad also are only found on the Universal. The performance of both air rifles is the same, the Universal is just an upgraded model. We saw the same thing in the Weihrauch line of match rifles. The HW55 Custom Match was the top model and the HW55 SM was the standard. There is also a rare SF model HW55 that did not have the barrel lock that’s found on all the other HW 55s, but that rifle — a cheapie in its day — is now the rarest HW55 of all!

Velocity RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets

The rifle I’m testing averaged 499 f.p.s. with RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets. The spread went from a low of 488 to a high of 515 f.p.s., a difference of 27 f.p.s. The spread is a little too high and the velocity is also too low for an LGR. I hasve more to say at the end of the report.

Velocity Gamo Match pellets

Next I tried 10 Gamo Match pellets. They averaged 468 f.p.s., with a low of 438 and a high of 483 f.p.s. — a spread of 45 f.p.s.

Velocity RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle

The last pellet I tested was the 8.2-grain RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle wadcutter. It averaged 448 f.p.s for 10 shots. The low was 423 and the high was 460 f.p.s. — a difference of 37 f.p.s.

What I didn’t tell you

I didn’t tell you that two weeks ago I tested the LGR’s velocity with R10 pellets and got a first shot speed of 399 f.p.s. Shot 2 was just over 400 f.p.s. and the fourth shot I fired went out at 436 f.p.s. From that I knew that the seals in the rifle were hard — something I have written about several times. Read Part 2 of my test of the IZH 46M. And I knew what to do about it. I stood the rifle on its butt and dropped about 5 drops of automatic transmission fluid sealant down the bore. I let it run down the barrel and through the transfer port for several days and then I shot the rifle several more times. I didn’t chronograph it again until today — about two weeks after treating it, and you see what happened. The rifle increased in velocity significantly! But wait, there’s more!

After running these tests and seeing the results, something dawned on me. The former owner of this LGR had sent me a small pack of breech seals for the flip up transfer port. He even wrote the size of 6.8 X 1.9mm on the package.  When the rifle was unpacked I noticed that the o-ring on the flip-up air transfer port was missing and I hadn’t found the packager of breech seals yet, so I went to my hiuge assortment of metric o-rings and found one that seemed to fit. Later I found the package of breech seals and thought — what the heck?

Well after this velocity test I remember that I had them so I removed the o-ring I had put in and replaced it with one that came with the rifle. Then I shot 10 more RWS R10 Pistol pellets. This time the average was 505 f.p.s. —p not that much  faster than 499 f.p.s., but the spread was reduced from 27 f.p.s. to 16 f.p.s. (493 to 509 f.p.s.).

Oh phooey!

If I do it over for one I have to do it over for all. 

So 10 more Gamo Match pellets averaged 463 f.p.s  with a spread from 438 to 490 f.p.s. so, the average decreased by 5 f.p.s.  by and the spread increased by 7 f.p.s. I don’t think the LGR likes the Gamo Match pellet.

Ten more RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle pellets averaged 441 f.p.s. — 7 f.p.s. slower than before. The spread was 22 f.p.s., compared to 37 f.p.s. previously.

I think the new breech seal helped performance. It stabilized it, rather than speeding it up that much. But I do know a way to speed this rifle up. Pump the pump partially about 20 times for the first shot and you get a velocity with R10 Pistol pellets of 532 f.p.s. After that 3-5 partial pumps per shot keeps the velocity above 530 f.p.s. So, with fresh seals that’s what you might expect — that or a little more.

Pumping effort

The LGR takes 19 pounds of force to close the pump arm. While that sound low, remember it happens between both hands, so it does wear on your arms.

Trigger

I measured the two stage trigger at 3.3 ounces for stage one and 5.5 ounces for stage two. And I didn’t forget that question of how the trigger blade can be canted from side to side, so looky here.

Walther LGR trigger
The same screw that loosens the trigger to slide back and forth on the round bar also allows it to swing from side to side — a little. It doesn’t move that much!

Summary

This LGR is slow, but not enough to worry about. It will still shoot as well at these velocities as it would if it were 75 f.p.s. faster. I’m willing to live with that. If I need more speed Neal Stepp’s store is about 25 miles from where I live.

I have wanted to shoot one of these for so many years and now I get the opportunity! Next time we check accuracy.

94 thoughts on “Walther LGR Universal: Part 2


    • GF1,

      I would be surprised if it would not adjust that fine. Now is it better? That would be subjective. Seriously. How much more ergonomic or more sensitive can you make a trigger?

      The real question is can the trigger be adjusted to your particular sense of touch and still be safe? My Izzy trigger is adjusted way too sensitive for competition, but oh is it sweet.


      • RR,

        The Red Wolf is right around 6 oz. Crazy light! It definitely takes some getting used to. In fact,… I always do some practice pulls unloaded and safety on before shooting just to make sure I remember just how light it is. You just think shoot,.. and it shoots. Very little excuse for saying you “pulled” a shot due to not pulling the trigger correctly.

        Chris


      • RR
        Ok that’s the question then.

        Can the trigger on the gun BB is reporting on be adjusted as well to the sense of touch as the FWB 300 trigger for the same shooter on each gun?


        • GF1,

          Having never owned one of these, I cannot say for certain.

          I have owned FWB300’s and I have owned a FWB601 and I own an Izzy. All sweet. The LGR at one time was at the top of the heap. Likely you would be quite happy with the trigger.


          • RR
            Ok still don’t know then.

            Maybe one day I’ll get one and see. I doubt it though. Not into the single stroke pneumatics. Don’t know why. Just never cared for them. Rather have a springer or a pcp.



              • Chris
                The spring guns from what I have seen take to modding better than the SSP’s. The springers make more power usually. Easier to get the springers out to farther distances.




                    • GF1,

                      I don’t know,… SSP’s have always appealed to me. Same effort as a break barrel with all the smooth shooting of a PCP.

                      Chris



                    • GF1,

                      No. But if the ergonomics was good and pellet loading was not a pain,… I would be happy. A nice peep too. THE END.

                      Chris


                    • GF1,

                      I have owned two SSP’s, one of which I still own, my Izzy. Until you have shot a top end SSP, you cannot grasp how smooth it is. They do indeed put that FWB300 to shame. The only way to do better is with a PCP and that is only because you do not need to charge it with every shot.

                      You are limited by how much power it has unless you convert it to a multi-pump, which I do not recommend as it is not designed to take that strain.

                      Should you try one? I really do not think so as you will not care for the power limitations. But like I said, a FWB601 will put that FWB300 to shame at 10 meters.



  1. B.B.,

    Not having experienced a SSP personally is the 19 pound effort constant or does it stack up halfway before closing? The low power from the effort is not for long range plinking. SSPs are definitely more for target shooting only I think. I can just imagine the effort required by the competition shooter, along with the effort of cocking comes the mental strain of competition. No wonder they shifted to PCPs once available.

    Siraniko



      • 19lbs is actually pretty light compared to a 12ft lb SSP.

        The SSPs I have with a similar linkage (Titan JB1, Titan Mohawk, Air Logic Genesis) all stack reallly heavily at the end of the stroke and rate a HHHRRRNNNGGGG for effort. The Genesis with a handle that closes forward in the same way as the Walther feels particularly challenging.

        I also have a Parker Hale Dragon with a more complex compound sliding linkage. Subjectively is feels easier to cock but that may be because the build-up is more progressive.

        I’m curious to measure the cocking effort now! Is bathroom scales with a towel in between to protect things the approved method?


    • Siraniko,

      The cocking lever on my FWB 603 hinges at the front and the rifle has a complex linkage setup that results in a fairly light and even force over the whole cocking stroke.

      Haven’t measured the force (the literature says it’s 19 pounds) but it is light enough that extended shooting sessions are not a problem.

      I find that the rhythm of cocking, loading and shooting to be relaxing …even meditative LOL! Mind you I don’t shoot competition and between you and me I mostly plink with the rifle – but don’t tell anybody about that eh? Blasphemous maybe, but being outdoor plinking season, right now there is a red-dot sight on the gun. 🙂

      Hank


      • Hank,

        I don’t find it blasphemous to use a ten meter rifle for plinking. For hunting yes. I can just imagine the pleasure of shooting inanimate targets within 25 yards/meters without any jarring recoil needing only a single stroke. Farther than that I would like something with a little more power.

        Siraniko



  2. BB,

    As Siraniko pointed out, I can understand competition shooters switching to PCP’s, but for “serious” plinking the SSP is the queen.

    Attention all of you other trigger snobs out there. There is nothing finer than a 10 meter air rifle trigger.

    (Pssst, read through the blog slow in edit mode. Your fingers must have been flying.)



      • Yogi,

        Better gun, for what?

        In their discipline they are superb. They are excellent plinkers out to about 25 yards. They do not do well for hunting squirrels unless you can lure them in close enough to touch them with the barrel. Forget about 100 yard benchrest.


    • The 10 meter pistol trigger is just as nice as the 10 mtr. rifle, at least it is in my FWB 100 or Daisy 747 (as modified by me).
      So if FWB could get over 500fps out of that pistol and Daisy used to be able to make a relatively cheap pistol that operated the same, couldn’t a decent SSP rifle be made with around 700+ fps?


  3. I had the opportunity to talk to a high school rifle coach who shot a LGR back in the day. He said that between pumping the rifle and cranking each target to and from the backstop that he was pretty tired at the end of a 60 shot match!


  4. My brother gifted me with a Walther LGR Match, which had a beautiful walnut stock. It had been resealed then, and shot well. This was very early in my airgun hobby, about 2003 or so. That trigger was the best I have ever fired. Walther made a base LGR, an LGR Match, an LGR Match Universal, as well as a “moving target” and a “junior”. Mine chronied 558 fps, 2.2 dev, with 8.2 grain Vogel Match pellets. It was a one hole gun at 10 meters. My friend Paul Bracaglia has it now (he only has a small back yard to shoot), with a promise to never sell it. He put new seals in it, and agrees it is crazy accurate. This model was in production for a long time (1974-89), and perhaps apocryphally they had to change the size of the 10m competition target after this gun was introduced, as it dominated so completely, and the other gun makers had to go back to the drawing board.

    I thought the cocking effort was moderate, as you get some momentum swinging that cocking arm forward. It was kind of heavy, but it could really hit that bullseye.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_LGR





    • Diana Grl,

      So you are into older air rifles? You are most definitely in the right place.

      As BB said, Baker’s prices are way too high. I have never been able to do business with him. It is very important to know the “value” of an old airgun if you are going to buy them.

      I have three favorite sources. One is the yard sales. I have picked up some nice old airguns at yard sales. Quite often they may need a little working on, but that does not daunt me.

      Another excellent source is airgun shows. Not only can you find just about any airgun you can imagine, you can see some that you never have. Again, if you know the values, you can end up with some real gems.

      One of my best sources is BB. He occasionally will let me “talk” him out of one of his airguns. This is part of establishing “connections”. You get to know those who are into this stuff and you learn of this or that being available.

      Another excellent source is the online auction sites. Again, you need to know what you are looking at and how it should be priced. You also need to learn their language. Like with realtors, you need to understand what they are really saying.

      I so enjoy these old gals. There are a couple of young girls hanging around here, but most of the ladies around here are older than I am.


      • RR, you’re not gonna meet many young ladies while shooting air guns; I’d recommend you to own a puppy dog and become a good listener!?
        BB, please feel free to jump in here… I used to have a Diana 27 .177. After thousands and thousands of pellets of fun, I parted ways with it. Now, I’m in the market for a brand new .177 coil springer. I wish it to be just like my old 27 – balanced power, iron sights, and good quality. I’m a one rifle man, so it’ll be my second and hopefully the very last rifle. What are your recommendations?
        Here’s my little list:
        – HW30S / R7
        – HW50
        – HW35E
        – HW57
        – HW95 / R9
        – FWB Sport
        – Diana 34 Premium
        – HW77K
        Look forward to learn about your opinions!
        Thanks!


        • Diana grl,

          There are no springers as nice as the Diana 27. The Bronco was good but even it wasn’t as nice.

          I would go with the HW50 and perhaps detune it to cock easier. Or just get a 30S and I guess that’s as close as you can get.

          B.B.


          • I’ve even thought of buying an R9 and installing a 12 fpe vortek kit – but then why bother while an HW50 would do the same job.
            I’m seriously considering a synthetic HW30. AoA has it – not on their website yet, but they’ll send you one for the same price with the beech version. I’m just worried about the galling issue.
            In the end, I might even buy an R9 and use it as is, without detuning. Maybe a little bit longer range fun could become my new thing. Won’t have to worry about galling problems as well…
            About FWB Sport… If it can be accurate and good quality, I think worth every little penny. Even that one wouldn’t deliver 27’s awesomeness? On AoA, it’s listed as 950 fps for 177, but on the other sites, it says 820. I’m confused. If it’s around 820 with a 177 pellet, than it is a little less powerful than a 50, which will make it a great gun – but is it…? Would I regret buying a FWB?
            Thanks again.


        • Diana Grl

          I’m not BB, just chiming in. Your handle name sounds Diana 34 to me. If less power is okay the HW30s or R7 is easier to cock, just as accurate, some say more so, and easier to extract accuracy. Also has better sights but both have dovetails for scopes. But if you are hunting the 34 is a better choice. Both are quality rifles. Maybe a Diana 35 (HyScore too) would be a good compromise.

          Deck


          • Cocking is not a problem for me. I can cock a magnum air rifle all day and won’t even feel any soreness in the afterwards. I just don’t want too much power shooting a .177. I believe anything over 12 fpe has to be a PCP. A Springer has to be weaker than a 12 fpe to have accuracy – just my humble opinion. The 34 I wanted was the premium version, which came with iron sights like the ones on R7/9 – no fibre optic BS. It was on AoA, but it’s out of stock now and will be probably discontinued. I don’t hunt, so it’s extra power would’ve been redundant for me anyhow.


        • Diana Grl
          Dont let me tell you what to do. But I had a Bronco and a couple hw30’s. No 27’s.

          I would take the hw30 over the Bronco anyday. The 30’s are great. Probably like them better than the hw50 I had.

          Lwt me know what you do. If you get a 30 I’m thinking you will be happy. 🙂


          • i agree, Bronco’s trigger was a joke, I believe – just by looking at its photos. A synthetic 30 will probably be the star of my new air gun chapter. I am just worried about the galling issue though. With my luck, I’ll have it. I’ve read about the delrin inserts and such, what a mess…


            • Diana Grl
              The 30’s ain’t like the 50’s.

              No plastic cocking guides needed.

              Why? Good question.

              Probably because less strain on the componants because of the lighter spring. That’s just me. Maybe I’m wrong.




                  • In the next few months, I sure will do it. TY!

                    Wouldn’t be funny if I end up buying a Hatsan Edge or something like that after all that’s been said and done!? I even thought about that once: A .177 Hatsan Edge coil springer, detuned to 12FPE, and upgraded with a Woodfield Welsh Willy trigger… Then I would remove the rear sight and then cut the front sight and sand it to turn the front sight piece into a handle to grab while cocking.
                    https://youtu.be/Y-_8GFENqKc
                    https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/edge-spring-gun-only-no-scope/


                    • Diana Grl
                      I went in a similar way with other model magnum Hatsans.

                      Matter of fact that’s how I found that they had way to much preload on their springs.

                      I cut like 4 inches off on the gun. Guess what happened. Shot cycle got better and velocity stayed the same.

                      Why with the velocity. Because the spring was so violent when it pushed the piston forward that the excess air just blew past the piston seal.

                      Wasted air. Not good.

                      After that I started watching for spring load when I tuned a springer.


        • Diana Grl,

          LOL! I treat all my airguns as ladies. I have found that if you do such, you can get the most out of them. I have a beautiful wife and a dog. I do try to listen, but…

          As for your wish list, what I have been reading about your comments I would recommend the HW30/R7. That is such a sweet shooting sproinger. It will give you similar performance of the Diana 27 and is sooooo smooth and supremely accurate. It is what I bought my grandson for his first pellet rifle. He can almost outshoot Gadada with it.



          • I didn’t sell it; I gave it away. A good friend of mine was going through some difficult times, emotionally and financially. I thought him how to shoot one day, to keep his mind busy with other things. He had such a big smile hitting the targets that I said, ‘keep the gun, my friend…’
            Well, maybe it’s time for me to explore more powerful air guns anyway. Lately, I’ve been inspired by the video at the link. My old 27 would’ve never been able to shoot that far, so I’m considering an ambi R9 with iron sights from PA.
            https://youtu.be/iRflBLpG3eo


            • Diana Grl,

              This is the second time in this thread you’ve mentioned the HW95/R9 platform. I like this choice because as you mentioned it can be tuned into a very docile and accurate gun or can be pushed into magnum territory. I’m a fan of the former.

              You’re thinking clearly.


              • Yeah, I could shoot the R9 with its OEM powerplant; using a heavier .177 pellet, I might very well keep the FPS under 800. Even though, I’m not a big fan of heavy pellets in springers, I could give it a try and see. If I find it overpowered in time, I can always install a 12FPE Vortek kit in it later on… But then shouldn’t I just buy a HW50 if that would be the case? Hmmm…? Maybe HW50 is the answer I’ve been looking for…
                Do FWB Sport and HW50 both have the same power? Or FWB Sport is in the same category with R9, power wise?


                • I’m a huge fan of the HW95/R9 platform. Don’t care for the new HW50. The old HW50 is better than the HW30/R7 in my opinion. The FWB124 is in another catagory. Low cocking effort for the power it generates and a barrel that produces legendary accuracy. The trigger isn’t as good as a rekord but can be adjusted to be acceptable.


                • Diana Grl
                  Try some heavy pellets in a springer. You might be surprised.

                  I shoot the JSB 10.34’s in a lot of .177 guns. I always get good results with them. Heck come to think of it I used the 15.89 JSB and 16.0 AirArms pellets in the .22 caliber TX200 and LGU I had. Good results all the way around. And no artillery hold needed.

                  They help on those days that ain’t so calm.



                    • Diana Grl
                      What people are always concerned about with a heavier pellet is shot cycle.

                      I found that not to matter with accuracy. It seems that it helps sometimes because of when the pellet leaves the barrel. What I see is just another thing to be aware of.

                      And you said the magic word.

                      Balance.

                      That’s what matters. You just got to shoot and see.





              • Diana Grl,

                Well,.. you fooled me! LOL! 😉

                I like the laminate the best,.. but if going walk about in the woods,… the synthetic would be the second choice.

                Chris

                I did think a choice of a C02 gun was quite odd!!!! after all of your discussions,… but hey,.. everyone has their own taste and reasons for doing what they do.


                • HW30S will be my final decision. I’ll just watch for a good deal and jump on it. When its price goes down a little, with coupons, sales, and such, I might consider a 850 CO2 as a second rifle one day; even though I’m a one rifle man. But then, it’d be like cheating on my good old 30 with a young 850!?





  5. Hi Chris,

    The Titan designs were taken up by Falcon (in the 90s I think) and the Falcon rifles seem to be a lot more common.

    I’ve got a Titan PCP as well in a walnut stock which is one of the nicest pointing rifles I’ve owned. Single shot, no gauge, striker cocks separately with the bolt just for loading. I love it!




      • OK, then I’ll just have to be content with the .177 version :^>

        B.B., with the scoped option (which would recreate my firearm version years ago), is that scope light enough not to overbalance the gun? I once tried to put a bug buster variable scope on my custom shop Crosman rifle but it made the gun too top heavy.

        —JoeB


  6. Dear Mr. BB,

    Apart from replacing the seals (there are/were multiple thickness seals from the factory, mostly for the old style of piston), you can increase the pressure in the chamber by adjusting the cocking/pumping arm axis of the LGR. This axis is actually a cam pin and has a very distinctive look to it – sort of a slotted screw with a gear shaped perimeter. You have to remove the barreled action from the stock, carefully pull out the e-clip retaining the pin, push the pin up about 3mm and rotate to adjust. Once done, push it back down and reassemble. This should give you a couple more mm’s of compression. You should also check if you have the piston with the belville washers of the the early one. You should have the former but one never knows what the previous owner installed afterwards. And some piece of advice if I may, if you need to remove the piston (after depressurizing the compression chamber) open the cocking/pumping arm about 15 degrees before removing the slotted screws on the diopter/scope rail. That will really prevent some seriously buggered screws.

    Kind regards

    Jo


  7. A quick search for Walther LGR revealed this thread (nothing to do with me, by the way)

    https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery.com/walther/walther-lgr/

    Note the warning in the instruction manual:

    “The job of regulating the contact pressure must be carried out only by a skilled specialist.”

    which could be compared to the manual for the Izh-46 which quite happily provides instructions on how to dismantle it – although that uses a two-part piston to achieve the same adjustment which isn’t mentioned.

    iain


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