by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The El Gamo David is a lower-powered breakbarrel from the 1960s or’ 70s.
This report covers:
- H&N Finale Match Heavy
- Breech seal
- Pick it out
- Seal is out
- What to do?
- Cocking effort
- Summary
Today we look at the El Gamo David breakbarrel rifle’s velocity. In Part One I predicted that, if the powerplant is in good shape, the David should be able to push an 8-grain pellet out at between 550 and 600 f.p.s. I have not chronographed a single shot yet, so I will find this out as you do. Let’s get right to it.
H&N Finale Match Heavy
The first pellet I tested was the 8.18-grain H&N Finale Match Heavy wadcutter. The tin says they weigh 8.18 grains. I weighed five and got this:
8.2 grains
8.3
8.3
8.1
8.1
Then I shot a string of 10. Before the string started I shot 2 pellets to “wake up” the powerplant. Then I shot the string and 10 pellets averaged 480 f.p.s. The low was 464 and the high was 487, so the spread was 23 f.p.s. That’s not a terrible spread for a springer, but I would always like to see it smaller. At the average velocity this pellet generated 4.2 foot-pounds. I had expected more like 5.5 foot-pounds.
That string was slower than I expected. But the powerplant sounded okay. What is the first thing you should look at when you discover that a breakbarrel is off its feed? I’d like to turn this into a quiz, but we really don’t have the time, so I’ll tell you. The first thing you look at is the breech seal. Let’s look now.
The David’s breech seal isn’t looking so good.
Breech seal
Everything you see that’s round in the photo above is the breech seal. It may look like an o-ring but it’s not.
Take a look at the picture. The David breech seal is not an o-ring. It’s much larger. That tipped me off that Gamo had used a formed proprietary breech seal. For the prospect of fixing the rifle quickly, that’s not good.
Pick it out
I used a dental pick to start the breech seal coming out. That puts holes in the material and even tears out chunks, so this side of the seal cannot be reused. It took about ten minutes to get the seal out far enough that its size could be seen. I had hoped to possibly substitute a Weihrauch breech seal, but once I saw the size of the David seal I knew that idea was out. The David seal is huge!
By the way, both ends of my dental pick were severely bent in the process of picking out the seal. The good news is the bent ends will break off and I will have a different sort of pick when they do.
It probably looks like the seal is ready to come out at this point. Not so! It took another 10 minutes of careful work with a small pocketknife blade to get it out.
Quick fix
Once the seal was out I confirmed that nothing I had on hand would replace it easily. I can think of many ways to repair the gun quickly at this point. Fitting a wood or metal spacer in the deep breech seal hole and topping it off with an o-ring seems possible. The spacer would resemble the original seal in size, but would be shorter so the o-ring that sat on top would seal the breech.
Or find a piece of rubber tubing that’s close to the same diameter as the breech seal, but a little smaller. Wrap it with Teflon tape to bring it to size. Cut it shorter than the breech seal so an o-ring can sit on top.
Or cut several leather washers and stack them in the hole. Either top them off with an o-ring or make them so high that they squash and become the breech seal themselves.
Once the David’s seal was out I could see the size. It’s huge! More like a section of thick tubing cut to length. We are looking at the bottom in this photo, showing that the seal cannot be reversed. It’s not smooth enough.
The breech seal hole is very deep. I measured it as 0.372-inches from top to bottom.
That seal hole is deep — 0.372-inches to the bottom! It needs to be cleaned.
What to do?
What to do next is another pop quiz question. If you’re a lover of these old-timey airguns you know what to do. Get on the T.W. Chambers website and look under El Gamo. Only there is no listing for EL Gamo. Okay, just Gamo then. There is a listing for that, but no David model is shown. But what do we know?
First, we know that the El Gamo Expo was popular around the same time as the David and it lasted a lot longer. We know that from comments left by readers Lain and GunFun1 to Part 1 of this report.
Second, we know that the Expo was roughly equivalent to the David — or at least we believe it was. We believe that the David was for a limited market and the Expo was for a broader market and most likely replaced the David when it came out.
Third we know that in manufacturing a company will always attempt to make one part work for many different models. That is especially true of parts that share a common purpose — like breech seals. If you have gone to the trouble of creating the tooling and fabrication processes for a proprietary seal, you want to do it as few times as possible.
That only makes sense, as each unique part not only needs to be manufactured, it also needs to be managed. The fewer unique parts you have to manage, the better. You can buy 100 o-rings for a dollar and call them breech seals or you can spend the time and labor making 100 unique seals. The fewer unique parts that are in your product, the easier it is to make — though the performance will be at the mercy of the generic part you select and you will also have to ensure a longtime supply of the generic part.
The drawing of the Expo shows a breech seal that’s shaped like this one. It’s worth a try!
I GUESSED that the breech seal for the Gamo Expo that TW Chambers does have in stock will also fit the David. The price was 5.25 British pounds, plus shipping. By the time it arrives in about two weeks I will have about $15 invested. If I’m wrong about the fit, I can explore the other less desirable options.
Cocking effort
Well, I can’t shoot the rifle without a breech seal, so the velocity test has to be suspended. But I can test the cocking effort.
The David cocks with 15 pounds of effort. That makes it good for kids.
Summary
That’s where we find ourselves with the David. We are waiting on parts and we have a baseline on where the rifle was with the breech seal that was in it.
This is the downside of working on older air rifles. Sometimes they need attention. That’s just as much a part of the story of the El Gamo David as any of the other testing will be. As anyone who fools with vintage airguns will tell you — this is the fun part!
BB,
What would be the reason behind designing it with such a big seal to begin with? That’s interesting.
If the part you’ve got on order doesn’t work, another possibility might be having a replacement 3-D printed in a flexible resin.
By the way, harking back to the blog on “why .177”, I seem to remember seeing a survey on the Pyramyd AIR website a few years back asking if people would be interested in an airgun in a caliber smaller than .177, it seems like the caliber mentioned was .10 or .12. Has there been an effort within the past decade or so to establish a new, smaller caliber?
MOS,
To my knowledge, no caliber smaller than .177 has been worked on recently. If it has, it’s a tight secret!
BB
BB,
It might have been .12 caliber. The survey was on the PA main page for a while, so I don’t think a search would turn it up unless it’s in an archive somewhere.
And speaking of smaller calibers, I’ve got to check back a few blogs again to see what angel hair caliber is…
Minute
Chris was the one that measured the different spaghetti.
Hopefully he still has some to measure or will remember what he did measure.
MOS,
.045″. From your comment, it sounded like you might already have the information. I have been out all day.
Chris
Chris USA,
Thanks, man. Yeah, I wanted to mention it here because I enjoyed the thread where y’all talked about it at first but didn’t have time to comment then. Trying to catch up on commenting now that the weekend’s here. Anyway, to me Angel Hair sounds kinda bad-a** as a projectile.
BB,
I’ve just read about the LOP on this one. This is what I’d like to have for basement fun. If its plastic parts were replaced with metal ones, this one would be a great gun. I bet it will be very accurate at 10m. Please, don’t shoot it all over the place on purpose, just because I said that it would be accurate. 🙂
Fish
Fish,
LOL! BB is not about to do that. He will very modestly tell you he is not the world’s greatest shot, but he will still try to do his best.
Fish,
Like I really try to scatter them! 😉
BB
B.B.
Do you think that the piston seal also needs replacing? Spring?
A suitable spring could always be found here, but when ordering from Chambers, I always try and order all possible parts at one time.
If the breech seal is toast, I would assume that the piston seal is too. Can you “date” a rifle by the materials the seals are made from. I was surprised that it did not have a leather breech seal!
-Y
Yogi,
The piston seal COULD need replacing, but it’s best the make haste slowly in cases like this. If the breech seal gets it up to 500 f.p.s. with the 8-grain pellet, I’ll be happy.
I agree that this one probably has a leather seal.
BB
Did you put a few drops of chamber oil in to “wake up” the leather piston seal? If not you’ve got a couple weeks to let it sit and soak. Might bump up the speed a little for you.
Rk,
I didn’t need to oil the piston seal. It came to me already oiled — blowing oil out the muzzle with each pellet.
BB
BB,
That seal (size) is certainly most interesting. My first thought would be liquid epoxy that could be poured in and left a bit proud/mounded. Flexibility of dried material would key. Rubber/PVC tubing would be a close second, if not the first choice.
I hope that what you have on order will work just fine.
Chris
Chris
How come you didn’t give Minute Of Something the spaghetti measurements above.
You and Fish was the ones that was talking about it.
gf,
chris has been busy with playing jokes on me. 🙂
fish
Fish,
I can assure you,.. I was not/am not “messing” with you. I found issue with your broad swipe at humanity in your reference(s) to anyone that is not familiar mythological entities,.. is somehow akin to swamp slime.
But hey,.. this is America and you are fully entitled to any view of the world/people/education/intellect (or lack there of) that you have. No worries though,.. it would seem that the “powers that be” think us ignorant common folk are too dumb to know anything and must be told what to do and how how to do it.
Chris
chris,
i really thought you were messing with me, because you’ve owned so many dianas in your life time and stuff…
i don’t know, man. everyday i learn something new and realize how ignorant i’ve actually been. i’ve never thought of myself as a knowledgable man. to be honest with you, in the last few months, I’ve learned a lot from you.
although, when my dad handed me his diana 27 the first time, i was a just a little kid – but i immediately knew what the logo was about. i thought that it was brilliant – made me fell in love with diana springers, and that image had so much to do with it. but this story means nothing, really…
by the way, around here if you want to tell someone what to do and how how to do it, you don’t want knowledge or education; all you need is money.
ah, who cares about mythological bs… i know how to cheer you up; I’ll ask gf to give me a purple. come on gf, do your thing. 🙂
fish
Fish,
– “i really thought you were messing with me, because you’ve owned so many Diana’s in your life time and stuff…”
You have me confused with someone else as I have never owned a Diana,.. not that I have anything against them.
– “by the way, around here if you want to tell someone what to do and how how to do it, you don’t want knowledge or education; all you need is money.”
Yes, that does seem to be the way things are headed. It has always been true to a great degree in many instances,.. but this country is headed down a very wrong road at the moment.
I am not a historian by any count,… but as a recall,… a fellow named Adolf was quite popular when he first started out. How did that end up?
– As for logo’s and branding,… we all have our childhood influences as to what was “cool” or “must have”. It is what it is. I still like the 880 because I had several as a kid,.. but hey,.. they are pretty much junk. But still,… More so,… an 1894,… real junk. But still,…
– You lost me on the whole “purple” bit. That is the color of royalty,.. is it not? Hey, whatever works for you. I am a bit partial to blue myself.
Chris
chris,
– i thought you owned a 350 with t05 trigger – about the other dianas, i think i’m heavily confused.
– purple is what gf gives me when i bring up the tr5 improvement ideas. +^)
🙂
fish
chris,
ahhh, your 350 probably says rws – only… okay this clears up the mess. 🙂 i’m such a fool. 🙂
fish
Fish,
About the only thing that you have “clear”,… might? be the “rw”,.. as in Daystate (R)ed (W)olf, HP/FAC in .25. I suppose? the “s” could be for the special/limited edition.
Chris
chris,
LOL! I am such a forgetful idiot.
i’ve just checked the older comments; it was RR who had a Diana 46E, and he was telling me how good the old 05 trigger was to convince me to buy the 350. i was totally confused. that was why i thought you were messing with me. uh, this is funny…. i’m so sorry, man – for this unbelievable mess and the massive disturbance i’ve caused with my stupidity… you were probably like ‘what the heck is wrong with this guy…?’ please, just ignore my terribly confused thoughts…
fish…
Fish,
It is all good as long as long as you have it (all) straightened out. Maybe stay away from the whole myth/education/intellect (or lack of) thing,……. really not your forte.
Chris
my comment was general, because you had made a general assumption about all americans. i disagreed with the idea that americans were not familiar with the subject – that’s all. I listed a few common mythological names, nothing to be forte here.
this conversation is going nowhere. I thought you had a few dianas, but i was wrong. sorry!
Fish,
Check this out. The 34 is still around new if you know where to look.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/883464125
Do you want to hunt small game? If so, the 350 in .22 would be great, but in .177 not so much. Plink and shoot at targets? Then the 34 in .177 is much easier to cock and lighter-weight.
Michael
TY
GF1,
Just saw it. I replied. .045″.
Chris
BB,
It is indeed most enjoyable to bring one of these old gals up to snuff. Often you find the internals can be quite robust. Most of the old gals were made to last. With proper care, this was something that was built to be used for many years and often handed on.
RidgeRunner,
I read your post immediately above and found my head nodding up and down so vigorously it was like I was at a Pantera concert again back in the 1990s!
Like you I have a strong appreciation for the classic steel and wood heirloom air guns of the past. While unlike you I have almost no ability to work on the internals of air guns, I can imagine how gratifying it must be to restore an old gal such as those you have stewardship over.
BRAVO!
Michael
Michael,
It really is not that difficult, most especially with these grand old ladies. They were built to last. Often times you might have to replace a seal here or there and they are as good as new. All you really need to do is pay attention on how they come apart so you can get all the parts back in place. 😉
BB,
I had an El Gamo about that size. I gave it to my nephew and I don’t remember what model it was. Mine shot more like a Diana 24, a little less powerful than a R7 or Diana 27.
For a breech seal, my thought was automotive fuel hose. It is normally reinforced rubber and is kind of thick. You might stop by your local auto parts store and see if they have something that will work.
David Enoch
David,
Thanks for the tip. Fuel hose, eh?
BB
There is an ebay listing as well that shows three different seals and one of them looks like the one in this air rifle. A search for “GAMO BSA ASI BREECH SEAL” brings up the listing. It is from Australia so Chambers will be much faster but an interesting reference of the three different seals.
According to the Australian ebay listing that Slevane referenced, this seller sells the 3 most common gamo breech seals. He provides dimensions on how you can tell which one you need and provides free shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GAMO-BSA-ASI-BREECH-SEAL-SML-MED-LRG-AIR-GUN-RIFLE-ALL-MODELS-177-22-QUALITY/153297654265
Kevin,
That is a great lead and the price is also great. If mine wasn’t on order I’d order from them. I will say that Australian shipments take about twice as long as from the UK.
BB
BB, Send it over to Gene, he’s qualified. This rifle is why the HW45 is famous. It just needs that pistol brace;
there’s something usefull to make for a great gun. Springers are still the best platform overall, IMHO. I might tear into the Synergis just to satisfy my curiosity, I can count on the R10 in case I mess it up.
I hope the David is accurate, or at least lucky.
R
B.B.,
After you get this old girl shooting again you need to rest her on a bag filled with Pipas or their shells if you are tempted while you wait for the wind…Lol
If the seal issue isn’t resolved by suppliers already identified you may want to try closedcell Neoprene tubing. The depth of the seal is an interesting try at overcoming the compression limit problem (the inverse of the elastic limit of materials; think Bungie Cords.) of seals. That’s the reason leather does so well. I wonder if the Leather Seal company i provided a few blogs back could supply you with a rubber impregnated one to try. The Godfather could write about it in your blog for marketing purposes.
shootski
Iain,
Thanks for the info on the Gamo. I really would like to see more airgun companies take a look back at the way things used to be done and use some of those ideas now.
BB,
Off topic: I am considering the purchase of a TalonP and am doing some research before I make the plunge. I am confused on the info I am getting. Can you please clarify for me the following:
1) I have info from Air Force that a Condor tank will fit the TalonP but I have heard elsewhere that the threads are different with the TalonP using paint ball threads!? And
2) what is the OD of the Condor tank?
https://www.pcpshop.in/talonp-valve-to-condor-tank-adapter.html
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=34229.0
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=170281.0
Thanks
Ton,
Tanks are interchangeable between Talon SS and Condor. But the SS can’t opern the Condor tank all the way, so the power isn’t there.
Just put a 24-inmch barrel on the SS and you will get twice the power with no loss of air past the SS useage.
BB
BB, It’s the TalonP that has my interest not the Talon SS
Ton,
Sorry, I spoke too soon. I don’t think those tanks will fit the TalonP.
BB
Ton,
I think your main confusion is the threading in the mouth of the tank is different with the TalonP and the other AirForce tanks. As for the threading on the outside of the valve where it screws into the frame, I do believe they are all the same. The TalonP is built on the Talon frame.
If I am not mistaken, when you buy a tank from AirForce, it will have a valve on the end of it already. The Condor has the same tank as the Talon and Talon SS. Once again if I am not mistaken, the Texan tank is the same. The differences are the valves.
The question now is, does the TalonP have a striker/spring combo strong enough to fully open the valve on the Condor tank? Probably. With that short a barrel, you will be quite limited on power. The Talon has an 18 inch barrel and the Condor has a 24 inch barrel. You CAN put a 24 inch barrel on a Talon frame.
Instead of going to a Condor bottle, which will be of considerable increase in diameter and length, think about a 20 cubic inch tank. They are the same diameter as the 13 CI tank on the TalonP, but longer. The threads on the tank will accept the valve of the TalonP.
I would really like to have a TalonP valve myself to put on a 20CI tank for my Talon SS. I also have an 18 inch .25 barrel for it. I was going to have to build a silencer for it, but now with the TalonP carbine, it is ready made.
One of these days AirForce might catch up to the tinkers. Nah.
Ridge Runner,
Thanks for the info man.
Can you give me a link where I can get the 20 Cu in tank?
Like in the second Gateway to Airguns link I posted on the 13th, Tim from Mac1 Airguns said that that the tank are all interchangeable. Now that was in 2012 I don’t and know how things may have changed since. Here is a response from Air Force Airguns to my e mail enquiring about a interchangeability of tanks between the to guns:
“Thank you for your email. Yes you can use our Hi-Flo air tank used with our Condor/CondorSS air rifles and use it with a TalonP pistol. It will give the same power with more shots per fill…up to 10 to 15 more.”
However when I asked Alteros about a regulator for the TalonP, I was told that the threads were different and I would need a paintball tank!
I must admit a lot of my confusion lies in the fact that I have never handled an Air Force airgun and my experience with them is limited to photos and YouTube,
Fact is, I like the TalonP Cabine but not the low shot count from its little tank!!
Ton,
Tim at Mac1 sells them.
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/22-ci-regulated-psi-hpa-tank-high-pressure-p/22ci3kve.htm
My bad, they are 22 CI. These tanks will about double your shot count. Take your valve off of the 13 CI tank and put it on one of these and away you go.
Talk to Tim about a regulator setup for the TalonP also.
As for the low shot count, how many do you need? If you are at the range, you will probably have a refill system handy. If you are in the woods hunting, you should only need a couple of shots.
You may have figured out by now that you are talking to the wrong dude about high shot counts. I am not one who blazes away at things.
Ton,
I do not think I was quite clear concerning a regulator on an AirForce tank, most especially the small TalonP tank. There are regulators available to fit any of these tanks. The issue is with the fact that you will need an adapter to go from the regulator to the valve. When you add a regulator and an adapter to an AirForce tank, the length of pull becomes considerably longer.
Tim at Mac1 sells regulated tanks. Does he have adapters? I do not know.
JDS Airman does have tanks, regulators and adapters.
http://www.jdsairman.com/
🙂
Since this is an article on a springer, I thought this would be appropriate. This is my attempt to make a recoilless springer or at least lower the recoil on my Beeman R-1. The 1 ounce egg sinkers move back a half inch when the front piston reaches its maximum travel. I have 2 Tee-nuts and 5 mm bolts that are 25 mm long. The wires are cut from a clothes hanger. The intervals on the blue masking tape or an eighth of an inch and I try to make them the same so the force moving backwards is not unbalanced. It seems to work well at reducing the recoil but doesn’t completely remove it. Believe it or not, I have to pull the stock hard back against my shoulder to get good grips.
Brent,
Very innovative! External sled design. Would it improve with a ballpoint pen spring to return the weights to the starting position?
Siraniko
Sirnako,
I thought about that but I was afraid you would get a forward force as the weights were forced forward by spring compression. That’s what I’m trying to counter.
Brent
Brent,
Very innovative. It would be interesting to measure/quantify the results/effects in some way.
Did you get the inspiration for the idea from something that you have seen else ware?
Chris
Chris,
My R-1 has always had a pretty good bounce with the long piston stroke, even at 12 fpe, so I was just trying to think of something to counter it. This set up does not eliminate the bounce, it just seems to settle it down a little. The weight up front also helps steady the muzzle when you’re shooting off hand.
Brent
Here’s a side view with the scale on the blue masking tape.
Brent,
Very cool.
Brent
How are the groups like with the gun when you hold it tight against your shoulder without the thing you made?
Same size group or what? You said you had to hold the gun tight against your shoulder with the thing you made.
So I was wondering what groups were like with and without the thing you made and shouldering the gun tight.
Gunfun,
When I shoot inside at 7-8 yards, I have a relaxed shoulder and just rest the R1 on my off-hand and occasionally can shoot a slightly enlarged one hole group or a 1/4 inch or less 3-5 shot group. When I shoot a longer group I am shooting off a bipod ( not attached to the gun) with the end of the forearm of the R1 rested on the bipod. It seems to work better if I pull the R1 into my shoulder almost as hard as I do when I shoot my .243. Otherwise the piston bounce sometimes throws the shot off. The R1 weighs close to 11 lbs. with the scope and mounts. The end on the forearm is resting lightly on the end of a rolled up washcloth on the bipod. I’m thinking of putting a layer of leather over that to replicate a hand as much as possible. I am still experimenting. I shoot at shoot n’ see targets and was able shoot a 5 shot group of about a 1/2 inch at 42 yards when I held the R1 tight to my shoulder as above. I can hardly wait for the Diana 54.
Brent
Gunfun,
One of the things I forgot to say is when I held the R1 loosely with the counterweights on the bipod, it shot all over the place. I need to test it with other pellets and other counterweights. It’s still a work in progress.
Brent
Brent
Thanks for the info.
Glad your experimenting with the sliding weight.
I think your on to something.
Maybe the angle it is at compared to the gun will make the difference.
Brent,
1 oz. sinkers are pretty hefty. I used to cat fish a lot in rivers, so I have an idea.
To me, this begs for a spring at each end, not heavy in the least. Even then, I am unsure that there is enough weight.
This reminds me of that scope mount that absorbed shock,.. in concept. I think it had opposing springs.
Also, the forces you are trying to fight are forwards and rearwards. Therefore having the rods laying flat would seem to make the most sense.
At any rate,.. just some random thoughts. I admire your innovation and efforts.
Chris
B.B.
I hate to ask a stupid question like this, but since o-rings were patented way before this gun was made (like back in 1937: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring ), why in the world would they design such a large and complicated to make seal, when a simple o-ring would have worked well and have been much cheaper?
I really hope the new seal you have on order works for this gun.
Looking forward to the rest of this series,
dave
Dave,
Many airgun makers use proprietary seals rather than o-rings. Weihrauch uses one!
Why? I don’t know. They must be better in some way.
BB
“They must be better in some way.”
Yep, I reckon so; thanks, B.B. =>
Dave,
Don’t tell anyone but I think the designer had a deal with the seal maker. 🙂
Mike
Mike,
It is called “the brother-in-law” effect.
RidgeRunner,
True.
Mike
LOL! Good one, man. =>
Dave,
I think RidgeRunner did it better than I, “the brother-in-law’ effect.
Sweet.
Mike
Gunfun1
“Where you at. Lucky you”
I promised to get back. Several readers expressed interest in the “Golden Gun”, the Ataman P16 Standard. Here is the first:
It is eye candy, it feels like my 1911, quality of aesthetics, fit and operation is as expected. My most serious concern was backyard noise so I loosened the hammer spring several turns to minimum adjustment allowed. I bravely shot one 18.1 grain Jumbo Heavy. Undaunted I loaded a magazine with all 4 JSB .22 from their sampler packet. Namely 13.43 gr, 15.89 gr, 18.1 gr and 25.39 gr pellets in all 7 chambers. I wanted to test function, ease of loading, air consumption and noise. Folks, noise is no problem at this hammer spring setting probably a high 2 or low 3. Dry fire is about 4. Function and loading is flawless. The pressure gauge registered 240 bar when I received it from BB. I have shot 9 pellets of widely varying weights and 4 dry fires. The gauge now reads 220 bar.
I don’t have a chronometer because it would take too much time to set up a high platform in front of my shooting location. I would not use it. Velocity means almost nothing to me if I still have accuracy in low winds. Next up after a week away from home is to test accuracy at this low setting. We know the gun is accurate at the higher and noisy setting BB tested.
I will see how many shots are left before it falls off the regulator at about 90 bar I think. Since I have no way of recharging the air supply I will have to decide whether to get a hand pump. Or I may decide to sell or trade it.
Have a good day and stay safe.
Deck
Deck
I like the idea that you backed off the hammer spring tension. Most PCP’s are just wasting air when the spring is set heavy. Plus that usually upsets the pellet when it leaves the barrel. We all know what that means. No good accuracy. I’m curiuos to see if the gun groups better now. And the Hatsan PCP’s are the worst for having the spring pressure heavy on the strikers. I have turned the Hatsan’s down and its like shooting two diffetent guns. It was like I was ready to get rid of the gun because of the poor accuracy. Then with the hammer pressure backed off it turned into one of my better shooters.
And if that pistol you won was a PCP rifle instead of a pistol I would probably trade you something if you wanted to. But just not that interested in pistols.
But keep us updated. It will be interesting to see what that less hammer spring tension will do to your groups.
Decksniper,
Glad you have the Godfather’s Golden Gun and that you are already shooting it. The fact that it isn’t all that much louder than a spring piston is great. My Crystal BALL is in the shop for repairs after the recent election prediction failure. But the wizard shop called me saying that after initially cleaning out some Social Media crud that it started showing something that looks like a bicycle pump and a smallish SCUBA tank with Decksniper labels! It needs more work according to the Shop Wizard since the two items keep fading in and out.
Seriously if you can pump it back up to180 Bar it should give you plenty of shots before needing a top up.
Don’t forget to drip a drop of chamber oil (or other non petroleum based oil) in the fill port and you won’t have corrosion (based on 30 years of PCP experience) issues ever!
I hope you find it accurate at low power.
ENJOY!
shootski
Shootski,
Darn it!,… I was hoping that we would not hear from you for the next month or two in hopes that you were out saving us from the,………… bad guys?
In case your “crystal ball” shop did not mention it,.. there was a major recall. Something about them running some defective software by Dominion. I have heard though that there is some on the fly patches that will get you all fixed up in short order.
Personally,… I would trash it and get a new one. I think your part about the hand pump and smallish SCUBA tank might not be too far off though,.. so maybe all is not lost.
😉 Chris
Shootski
I have exactly 30 years less experience with PCP’s meaning none. A drop of chamber oil in the fill port after each fill or pump up?
Thanks,
Deck
Deck
A drop or two (before) you fill a pcp.
And no. Not every fill. I do about every 250 to 500 shots. And I do about 3 or 4 drops each time.
Deck,
The NON BURNABLE oils (at high pressure) form an Emulsion with any water that might condense out as pressure drops occur in the cylinder. The oil coats the steel and prevents oxidation of any of the impurities that through catalytic action cause the corrosion to start inside the cylinder. That stuff/snot gets blown out with every shot. There is a great deal of marketing of all manner expensive dry traps, filters and other Voodoo products. I base mine on personal experiences over 30+ years and the education I received from Dennis Quackenbush as corroberated by our own B.B. Pelletier!
You could get a diver’s Buddy Bottle (small) for 200 Bar if you don’t want to pump up the pistol direct or get a spare cylinder or two from PA…you will have Black Friday deals to do that at a discount!
If you decide to come to the Dark Side one of the small portable compressor would be the way to go if economics dictate not spending a bunch of pellet money. I keep thinking about a compressor but with nearby $5.00 dive shop fills to 300+ Bar, three SCUBA tanks, and two hugh 4,500 psi Carbon Fiber cylinders Cascaded i just can’t economically justify a compressor for now.
shootski
shootski,
The election is not over. Several states are recounting the votes and throwing out odd ones or late ones.
But that’s not all. The 12th Ammendment could decide who becomes the next president. It has happened twice before — 1800 and 1824.
This You Tube video explains it pretty clearly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u60PcHZT76k
BB
BB,
Wow. I am speechless. Thank you for posting that. Wow. I steer clear of you tube sites for good reason,.. too hard to make sense of what is what. I don’t plan to change that,… but that is refreshing.
Chris
B.B.,
Oh man! You let the cat out of the bag!
I have carried a copy of the US Constitution since i became a Naturalized Citizen back in 1958! I read it often. I also have numerous texts that have been written by folks far smarter than me as well as some displaying far more deviousness at twisting the words of that great document. I find the average Citizen and our elected politicians lack of knowledge about the US Constitution to be a major reason we find ourselves in the sad state of affairs that allows the Fourth Estate to lead us around by the nose!
I certainly don’t use a crystal ball to tell me how things stand regarding our Republic!
We live in INTERESTING TIMES! May God bless us all!
shootski
BB,
Thanks for posting the video link, that lays it out pretty clearly. When the dust of 2020 settles, it would be interesting someday to see a historical book and/or movie that deals with one of those earlier contested elections that had to be decided per the 12th amendment– maybe as a subplot to a movie that deals with an airgun of the time.
Shootski– Amen to that!
MOS, Et tu, Brute? 🙂 Just joking.
Gentlemen, we are not a dictatorship; our democracy has already made her decision. We soon will have a new president who’s committed to unite our divided nation.
No desire to get into a debate here, just my brief humble input. Love you all.
Fish,
I can respect you and your opinion. There is however more than meets the eye. Look at the power (behind) the proverbial throne. Both sides, I imagine, have had their power grabs in the past for nefarious reasons. It is different this time and has been cooking for a long time,.. kind of like an all day pot roast, but not tasty at all.
What the average person is exposed to is being controlled very heavily (believe it, or not). If that is all you see, then you have no reason to believe anything different. You are not at fault. You act and respond in accordance as most do/will.
Like you said, no debate here. We will just have to see how all of this plays out. It is not like you or I have any real say in the matter other than a single vote.
Respectfully,.. Chris
Fish,
I had not intended to respond further,… but your use of “Et tu, Brute?” has forced me.
You see, I like odd (to me) words and phrases that I have not encountered before. So I did a search on it.
My jaw pretty much dropped to the floor. Why? Although you may not realize it, or intended it, you hit the nail exactly on the head!!!
Joe’s crew has got his back all the way,…. right up until the second that they don’t.
Not so at all with the other guy. That was a full out assault straight out the gate. No cloak and dagger there.
Thank you for the lesson and learning a new phrase.
Chris
Chris,
Hmm…? I think I should’ve said, “Et tu, MOS?” I clearly meant to say, “You as well, MOS?” Simply because I thought that he would disagree with the video, but he had commented, “Thanks for posting the video link, that lays it out pretty clearly.” As I disgreed with the video, I pretty much said, “Oh, so you too believe in the video, MOS?”
“Et tu” is a very common phase. When the least expected person follows the crowd and does something that you disagree, you tell that phrase to the person, stating the fact that you would expect everybody to do it but not him. You’re pretty much telling that person that you are disappointed with him, because you were not expecting him to follow the big crowd and do the thing that you disapprove. No deep meanings here, really. “Et tu?” means “You as well?” That’s all.
Fish
Chris,
And the funny part was, I would be the Julius Ceasar telling my last words to my friend, Brutus. 🙂 No need for a boring lecture here, you already know the history behind that wit. Well, not history actually, more of a quotation from Shakespeare. Let’s just say history of literature.
It was not a very funny joke from get go, and it’s just gotten even less funnier. 🙂
Fish
Fish,
Thank you for expressing this point of view! I appreciate you speaking up for the results of an election that was as fair as any other in this nation’s history. I have seen you speak up for inclusiveness and civility before- keep up the good work.
History,
Yes, a fair and clear victory. Now, it’s time for America to unite.
Fish
Fish,
2020 has been such a staircase of unpredictables that I primarily meant thanks for posting a video that shows yet another rare scenario that may develop. This year has taught me not to be even remotely sanguine about any prognostications by myself or others. I do support any recounts or other actions needed to verify validity of this election and maintain the precedent for future elections. As Shootski said, we leave in interesting times, and I thought his invocation of divine providence sounded reasonable. On a lighter note, I could see myself costarring with Marlene Dietrich in a movie in which she addresses me as “brute” with one syllable.
Mos,
For a long, long while, it’s been very interesting in our country for the starving children, people without healthcare, children dying because of preventable illnesses, homeless people, homeless veterans, elderly living under the poverty line, minorities, people suffering from chronic diseases, and such. I guess Shootski has started figuring things out just recently.
Long story short, America has chosen her new president. Again, this is not a dictatorship; this is a democracy. Fair, clear and simple.
Fish
B.B. and esteemed Readership,
As you all should know by now i use a Cascaded 4,500psi tank system to keep my Big Bores happily charged to as much as 3,800psi without constantly needing to get refills at the Dive Shop. If someone doesn’t know about pressure cascades and their benefits just ask here and get the facts. But cascading happens in more places! To include in politics as we have seen with some of the exchanges very recently on the Blog. I found this while searching for another monograph on the topic but this one is actually better:
https://quillette.com/2020/10/26/how-availability-cascades-are-shaping-our-politics/
See if you all don’t find agreement in what is happening to us all!
We live in DIFFICULT TIMES and they may get much worse soon if all the electorate doesn’t wake up to what is GOING DOWN!
Please read as all of our futures hang in the balance.
shootski
Shootski,
Good post. I did read the whole article. As always, you bring something elevated to the table. Wake up folks,.. things are not as they appear.
Chris
GF1
The P16 hammer spring adjustment is easily done with an Allen wrench through a hole just above where the web of your hand fits. Also as Tyler Patner said in one of his videos, the magazine can be topped off without removing it. Easy to shoot 10 shot groups if you do this.
Interesting about your Hatsun’s hammer spring. Was it easy to get to?
Deck
Deck
No the hammer spring adjustment on the Hatsan PCP’s was not easy to get to.
Gunfun1 and Shootski
More on Ataman AP16 Standard
Had just enough time today to shoot two magazines at 10 meters. First were Air Arms 16 grain domes that grouped .57 inches. Next were JSB 13.4 grain domes that did .37 inches. Original open sights are still on the pistol. These groups are in the ball park with BB’s test. Pressure gauge now reads 190 bar. I had one dry fire. When I return home I will mount a red dot or pistol scope and see what Golden Gun can do both at 10 meters and 25 yards.
Noise is no issue at the low setting. Most of my springers are louder, some much more so. I should be able to increase hammer spring tension some if it helps accuracy while still being neighbor friendly.
There is now no reason for me to let this pistol get away. I have 27 shots on it and plenty of usable air left. I have a week to ponder where my refill air supply will come from.
Thanks for your advice on chamber oil.
Deck
Deck,
I am very happy to hear that the two of you are getting along! 🙂
Chris
Chris
Still amazed I won the drawing! BB included an extra magazine too. So looking forward to getting back to it a week from now. The dark side is pulling on me just a little. I figured out a way to mount a chronometer at my shooting station that makes sense so I may get a hand pump and a chronometer. Being able to rev up the power some without disturbing neighbors is making me wonder about velocity consistency.
Deck
Deck,
JDS Airman is having a going out of business 50% OFF sale: http://jdsairman.com
The 90 cubic inch CF tank and regulator combination for $150+S&H would get you started down the road to the Dark Side. You could choose the 3,000 psi output from this 4,500 psi rated tank. With a Fill System (the bleed valve is the really important part) you would be able to tether (keep it hooked up) and shoot lots more or disconnect and do a number of top ups as needed. Get the small diameter hoses to keep wasted hpa to a minimum. But, ONLY if you have a convenient place to get 4,500psi fills typically; Paintball Shop, Diveshop, or Fire Station (Fire House might require a different adapter for SCBA to QD fitting) but a dozen donuts are often enough to get a fill or two!
shootski
Deck
Sounds good. Will be waiting to hear if you get the dot sight or scope on it. And for sure interested in the 25 yard groups.
And by looking at the gun and the air resivour size it probably will be not to bad to hand pump.
A good hand pump will cost up arond two or so hundred dollars. But you can get them as low as 75 dollars.
And if you don’t want to hand pump the Yong Heng compressors are pretty good. If you shop around you can find them right at 200 or so dollars. But look for the ones that a shipped from in the US. But they are great for filling guns and are very fast.
Just thought I would throw that info out there. Let us know what you decide to do with the pump situation.
I must say I really enjoy the reviews of the older/ lesser known spring guns. There may be one or two gems waiting to be (re) discovered and you may find one that can give a Diana 27 type experience for a lot less money.
Some of the old El Gamo models were quite popular in the UK. They were usually re-badged by the importer with quite cheesy names like Sniper/Rangemaster/Paratrooper etc. The Statical semi-recoiless rifle was an interesting rifle and is quite fondly remembered by many over here.
Regards,
Drew
Drew,
Did you have a Statical Rifle? I have always been interested in recoilless and semi-recoilless spring air rifles.
Brent
Drew
What statically semi-recoiless rifles are you talking about.
I like those type of air guns.
And not to be confused with what we are talking about but I like semi automatic guns too. And especially full auto guns. Just figured I would throw that in for the purpose of.
But give some specific air guns that you are talking about with the recoil system. I bet I know a few your familiar with.
Gunfun1,
I am talking about the El Gamo Statical from the 70’s/ early 80’s. It is a break barrel sporter but with semi match rifle styling. It uses a variation of the FWB sledge system but executed differently.
To answer Brent’s question: no, I have never owned one but have shot one often enough as a friend owned two for many years. If memory serves, it put out about 8fpe and the trigger was rather good. Accuracy was good also, but in no way are they match rifles.
My own favourite suppressed recoil springers are the Diana Giss rifles, both barrel cockers and sidelevers.
https://www.gunstar.co.uk/el-gamo-statical-collector-s-22-air-rifles/Air-Guns/926924
Regards,
Drew
Drew
I have not seen that rifle over here.
I have a early 70’s ARH catalog and it has some El Gamo guns listed in it.
Is the gun you are talking about still obtainable over there or are they getting scarce?
Were they accurate and how was the quality?
Gunfun 1,
They are accurate. Build quality is reasonable but I’m not sure about their longevity. Looks are maybe an acquired taste- I quite like them. I would prefer steel in place of the crackle finish polymer. The trigger and its open sights are quite decent and the gun handles nicely.
They date from 1975, so if your catalogue dates from before that it wont be there. Assuming it was exported to the US. They pop up here from time to time, usually at quite reasonable money. There are two advertised on the more popular UK gun sales sites right now.
Regards,
Drew
Drew
Thanks.
And my catalog is dated 72 and it says some updates will happen in 76.
Guess I should of kept getting the catalogs back then. What did I know. I was just a kid back then.
What do you think about the FWB 300s and the RWS Diana 54 Air Kings. I have had a few over time and have one of each now. What do you think of them air guns? I love mine.
Gunfun 1,
I do like the FWB 300S and shot one at club level many years ago. I switched to a Diana 66 and then 75 simply because Diana is my favourite marque.
As for the 54, I have never owned one. A friend of mine owns 3 of them plus a 56 and absolutely swears by them. He uses nothing else for hunting these days. He has 2 54’s in .177 and one in .25. I forget which cal his 56 is. He is always on at me to buy one for myself but they are very expensive in the UK.
I do have a short stroked 52 in a walnut thumbhole stock that performs very well though. Dianas are very underated over here these days.
Regards,
Drew
Drew
I have always wondered what a 54 in .25 caliber would be like which I don’t think we can get here.
But I almost got a .25/56.
If I can find a good shooting .25 caliber springer I’m getting it.
Another one added to my list. 🙂
Gunfun,
If you do a search for El Gamo Statical air rifle, then you will find some information on a few UK airgun sites and for sale sites like Gunstar. I think there is a demo by a German fellow on Youtube but it’s in German. I’ve never seen an ad for one on an American gun site and I would remember that sort of thing but you never know
Brent
Brent
I’m like that too about remembering. Usually. 🙂
I was just wondering what guns with the recoil system that Drew likes or knows about.
And most importantly that we don’t even know exist over here.
Gunfun 1,
Other than the Statical and the repeater version of it, I can only think if a few recoil suppressed springers other than the well known and lesser known German match rifles.
These are the Whiscombe, Park, and Air Arms TX200SR and the Diana 54/56. I am aware the Whiscombes are very highly rated and sought after in the US. I would have thought the TX would have been available to you as well. The Park, Im not too sure about. They only ran for a few years.
Regards,
Drew
Drew
I just searched the TX200 SR.
I want one. I bet they was never available over here.
I bet I’ll have to pay a bit for one.
If they came with a walnut stock I want one even more.
I wonder what I would have to pay for one?
And seriously if someone has one and wants to sell it let me know.
GF1,
The TX200 SR was available over here. I owned one and reported on it for my newsletter. It took and extra 10 lbs. to cock and was only a 12 foot-pound rifle.
BB
BB,
Anyway you could repost that article on the TX200SR here?
Brent
Brent,
I’ll look into it. You keep after me.
BB
BB
I would like to see the article too.
Guys,
Read this discussion. The guy has a lot to say about the SR.
https://www.airgunforum.co.uk/community/index.php?threads/air-arms-tx200sr-mk2.233028/
BB
BB
I read it. That has some good info about the gun.
If I came across one at a reasonable price that was in pretty good condition I believe I would have to get it.
BB
I guess that’s why it isn’t still around.
But was it accurate. Or should I say more accurate then a standard TX200?
My question is why did it take 10 more pounds to cock. Because of the slide action?
GF1,
Yes. When you cicked it the lever stopped at the point that the action slid forward, then you pulled harder to get it to fully cock and the action slid forward.
BB
BB
My 54 is like that.
What I found helps with it is I take my thumb with my trigger hand and push the action forward before I cock the gun. That way you don’t feel that stop point.
And I still think I would like to have a TX200 SR. Even with the characteristics you said it has. I may have to see if I can find one.
GF1,
Yes, I remember that trick!
A lot of people liked the SR. I think the fact that it was justy 12 foot-pounds put off some buyers. I felt my regular TX200 didn’t recoil very much so I didn’t need the semi-recoiless action of the SR.
BB
BB
The TX200 are definitely smooth shooters for the velocity they produce.
I would say I would still have to say I would own a SR especially if they still made them now. Probably will be tuff to find one of them now days.
I will have to see.
Where would be a good place to start looking for one at?
I received a new PA catalog in the mail today. Thank You!!! to PA for still sending them despite me not ordering anything in quite awhile. A web site in no way compares to a good old paper catalog.
Ok,… I am not a cave man,… web sites are pretty darn handy. But,… for sitting down and relaxing and just seeing what is new,.. give me a nice catalog,… with BB commentary no less! 🙂 THEN,… if I want to find out more,.. I turn on the computer.
Good job PA,………. Chris
Chris
Your just too old fashioned. Who would want to set down and relax to something printed on paper. 😉
GF1,
Just tossing out “props”,.. where props are due,……. 🙂
Chris
Chris
At least I didn’t say on my phone. 🙂
GF1,
You and your phone are a whole other issue. Sometimes I think that you are running it through some really screwed up translation service/app.. 😉
Chris
Chris
No I just mis spell to keep you all on your toes on your grammar.
Right.
Me.
RR
True I guess less glare any way than a computer screen.
BB,
This breech seal is still used in the Gamo Maxima which was canceled just a couple of years ago.
If you don’t mind, I can send you a few ones for a gift.
Gnom256,
I accept your generous offer. Please just send one.
I have emailed you.
BB
Great! My email address is gnom256@yandex.ru
I cannot stop myself visualizing this rifle without its hideous plastic parts. Still, a Diana 240 with iron sights (globe at the front) would be superior. Perhaps, we need something called, Beeman ‘R4,’ a Weihrauch that has the same LOP with R7 but smaller and weaker, ~500 FPS.
Or Diana 23 could be back…
I wonder if there is a serious airgunner who wouldn’t want to add the bottom to his collection.
A <$200 .177 quality coil springer air rifle with ~500 FPS power, wood stock, adult size LOP, iron sights /w globe at the front, no plastics, a nice trigger.
GF1,
I would look on the American Airguns classified web page.
http://www.airguns.net/classifieds/classifieds.php
BB
BB
Thanks.
Chris USA!
I do not know if anyone else has sent you this link, but here you go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-P0NgK6doM
RR,
Thank you. Mine is a .25, so I am always on the look out for .25 specific videos. Pretty sure the barrels are choked,… so I think not the best for slugs. I have heard it both ways.
Chris
GF1,
American Airguns
Gateway to Airguns
Airgun Nation
Dig around and you just might find some more.
Post some want ads. Very likely one of us old geezers just may have one of those things laying around collecting dust.
RR
Thanks.
Spent some time today machining a Daisy 499 barrel to retrofit to an old Crosman1600 semi auto BB pistol. Hopefully, I didn’t miss anything and it’ll all go back together—probably tomorrow—followed by some trigger time. Will it work? Will it be more (or less) accurate than it was before?
The 499 barrel had to be shortened about an inch overall. Both the leade and the crown were recut.
Derrick,
Looks like very good work. Let us know how it turns out and what bbs you test.
Don
Derrick
Looks good. Hopefully it shoots as good as it did or better.
Derrick,
Nice job. Looking forwards to the accuracy test.
Chris
BB you made me laugh out loud here:
“By the way, both ends of my dental pick were severely bent in the process of picking out the seal. The good news is the bent ends will break off and I will have a different sort of pick when they do.” Clouds with silver lining etc Thank you! Robert.