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38T

Crosman 38T Target revolver

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by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

38T
Crosman 38T.

History of airguns

This report covers:

  • History
  • Realistic
  • Single and double action trigger
  • Loading
  • Adjustable sights
  • Accuracy
  • Power
  • .22 is coming
  • She can also cook
  • Summary

Today we start looking at a vintage air pistol that many of you already love — Crosman’s 38T revolver. The T stands for target. This will be an in-depth look at the CO2-powered revolver that came in both .177 and .22 calibers. I hope to review both calibers for you in all the usual ways, plus I’m hoping that we’ll get a look inside the gun!

History

The 38T was produced from 1964 until 1985. It is distinguished by its 6-inch barrel. There was also a 38C (Combat) revolver in both calibers that had a 3.5-inch barrel. It also started in 1964 but ended in 1981. I bought a .177-caliber 38C brand new and used it for perhaps 20 years, but until this report I never owned or even handled a 38T. But other than the barrel length everything I say about the 38T also holds true for the 38C.

There are three variations of the 38-series air pistols. The first variant (1964-1973) has a metal rear sight blade and revolving cylinder. Variation 2 (1973-1976) has a plastic rear sight blade and revolving cylinder. And I haven’t got a clue how Variant three (1976 to end of production) differs from the other two, but the Blue Book of Airguns claims that it is separate, while giving no reason why.

There is also a chrome-plated version that is extremely rare. The Blue Book says it was a salesman’s sample, but other references say it was never issued. Maybe they are all agreeing because salesmen’s samples were never supposed to be sold to the public.

Realistic

These revolvers are very reminiscent of Smith & Wesson’s Hand Ejector revolvers — the ones with shrouded cranes. The grips are very reminiscent of later Hand Ejectors. The outside of the gun is nearly all metal — cold to the touch and heavy.

Even today, 36 years after the last one was made, the 38T is regarded as one of the most realistic pellet pistol lookalikes ever made. It has the weight, the size, the correct grips, the adjustable sights and all the features of the firearm it mimics with no condescension to plastics. It stands as an icon, together with the S&W 78G /79G and the Crosman Marks I and II.

The barrel is rifled so the pistol has the potential to be accurate. Naturally that will be something we test.

Single and double action trigger

The revolver has both a single and a double action trigger. The single action trigger pull is reasonably crisp, though there is a tiny bit of creep. The double action pull is heavy and creepy. It feels like the trigger parts need to be lubricated and just that may slick up the whole action.

While is looks to have a normal cylinder at first glance, only the thin front part of that cylinder rotates. That’s the part that holds the pellets until the gun  fires.

Loading

These revolvers loaded in a unique and peculiar way. On the left side of the gun there is a spring-loaded cover. To load, place a pellet in the U-shaped groove in the thin forward part of the cylinder that rotates, then cover the pellet with your finger or thumb and slide the pellet to the rear with a wiping motion. The pellet pushes the spring-loaded sliding cover back and when the pellet is over the open chamber that the sliding cover conceals, it drops right in. Finally, release the spring-loaded sliding cover and it pushes the pellet forward and into a chamber in the rotating cylinder.

38T pellet
To load a pellet, place the pellet in the groove in front of the spring-loaded sliding cover.

38T pellet finger
Put your finger or thumb on top of the pellet in the groove and press downward and to the rear in a wiping motion. The tail of the pellet’s skirt pushes the sliding cover back.

38T pellet drops
The sliding cover is all the way back and the pellet has dropped into the chamber. Release the spring-loaded cover and it will push the pellet into the chamber of the rotating cylinder of the revolver.

Stock up on Air Gun Ammo

Adjustable sights

Like the revolvers they copy, the 38T and C both have adjustable sights. The .177-caliber gun I am testing for you in this report is either a second or third variation and the rear sight adjustment has no detents. This is the plastic sight and that might be the reason why.

Accuracy

I read reports of owners who say the 38T is quite accurate. That’s one of the big reasons why I wanted to test it. The 38C I once owned was not that accurate, because if it had been I would have remembered. At the time I owned it I was shooting a number of .357 Magnum revolvers that were shaped similarly and were also quite accurate, so I’m sure I gave the 38C a fair shake.

Power

From the reports the .177-caliber 38T should put lighter lead pellets out in the high 300 f.p.s. region — perhaps 375-390 f.p.s. The .22-caliber 38T will put light lead pellets out at around 350 f.p.s., so not that much slower. Of course that will be something we test.

.22 is coming

As I mentioned in the beginning, there is a 38T in .22 caliber in the works, as well. That one will be a special look at the gun, as well as a full test.

She can also cook

You may think that you don’t like lookalike airguns that much. Well, the 38T isn’t just for looks. If you were to set about to make a fine repeating air pistol today, you would be hard-pressed to do much better than this one. In other words it looks great and it also works. I think this is the real reason why the 38T has achieved the status of an airgun icon.

Summary

This series that will include several airguns from the past should be a good one. Once some of our collectors get on board we should all learn a lot about these fine air pistols.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.
See Full Bio

140 thoughts on “Crosman 38T Target revolver”

    • Yogi,

      It’s a crane with a shroud around it. You should have asked what a crane is. It is the rod that sticks out in front of the revolver’s cylinder. Some are fully exposed and others tuck into a shround that protects them.

      BB

          • Okay, let’s back the bus up. I am unaware of anything called a shrouded crane. There is an unshrouded and shrouded ejector pin/rod illustrated by Siraniko’s photos. The crane or yoke carries the cylinder, cylinder pin and ejector pin and assembly. It is fixed to the revolver frame and pivots the cylinder assembly away from the frame for loading and unloading. Again, not a shrouded crane. The design of the 38T mimics a shrouded ejector pin/rod.

            • Paco,

              I was loose in my terminology and you are correct. The crane is what carries the pin on which the cylinder rotates. The extractor pin is the forard pin that sticks out.

              The term shroud is correct for what covers the extractor — and is not an ejector!

              I better tighten up my explainations with you around! 😉

              BB

      • BB,why is it called a “crane” ? and I have question about these types of pellet guns. The pellet is not loaded into the barrel, as I understand, and is simply blown out to the cylinder into the bore. “jumping the gap” so to speak. I have never had one so I have never pulled one apart to investigate… Surely there is a loss of pressure? Thank you! Robert.

        • Bob,

          BB of course knows more,…. but many have a spring loaded cone or barrel that “rides” the front of the 6 cylinder. But overall, you have it right. It does “jump the gap”.

          Chris

          • Hey Chris usa. Are you aware of the Mosin Nagant revolver which has a gas seal system? It is actually pretty darn smart. Just for interests sake: the Nagant M1895. I hope BB chimes in with some blog on how the co2 revolvers deal with the gas seal, or how they don’t ! Thanks! Robert.

        • Robert,

          Why called a crane I don’t know.

          Jumps the gap — yes. Just like most cartridge revolvers including the ones we have been talking about. Pressure loss? A little. But that’s how revolvers work unless you have a Rast-Gasser or something like that.

          BB

          • BB, thank you for clarification! I think the Nagant M1895 preceeds the R&G M1898 only just! Very interesting. Does the 38Y have any seal at all in the “cylinder” areas? Wiping Orings would help … or just increase the cost… Thank you! Robert.

  2. Yes these things are a chunk of vintage metal and memories.

    It has been decades since I have felt the grip profile of the S&W revolvers from the 80’s.

    I can tell you it does feel the same…

    Very interesting loading action.

    Ian..

  3. Well, once again it is a personal thing, but I guess if someone was to send one to live at RRHFWA I would likely make room for it, especially since everybody is saying you can hit something with it.

    It does have two major strikes against it, at least from my way of thinking. Number one, it is a look alike. I really like the unique look of many airguns. Number two, CO2. A good part of the year it is just too cold to use this gas around here. Also, it can end up being right expensive.

    Now, before everybody has a kinipshin and starts trying to sell me on these features, years ago I did have a semi looking revolver that was CO2 powered and was fairly accurate and fun to play with for a little bit, but it was not long before I was bored with it and it ended up finding a new place to live. I can see where some would be attracted to these things, but they are just not for me.

    • >A good part of the year it is just too cold to use this gas around here. Also, it can end up being right expensive.

      RidgeRunner,

      I got my Umarex S&W 586 this winter and I started out trying to keep it warm indoors for shooting, but my indoor shooting options are very limited. Eventually, I just started shooting it outdoors in the cold (down to about 30 degrees F on warmer Idaho days at least) and my shot count went up considerably! Colder == less volatility from the CO2, I guess. Sure, my chronograph said velocity was down closer to 300 fps instead of the typical summery 400 fps, but 300 still works at 10 meters just fine and the shot count was roughly inverse to the velocity! I got to the point that I’d let the gun cold soak outside before shooting to get a more consistent first three or four shots.

      -Cal

      • Cal,

        I have three pistols right now. My Izzy, a Webley Senior and a Predom Lucznik. I have owned a CO2 gun, but the cost of cartridges and pellets just did not work for me. Also, these lookalikes really do not appeal to me. My airguns look like airguns. It’s a me thing.

        • RidgeRunner, Yes–the CO2 becomes a significant expense and I was interested in firing my 586 as I would defensively with my carry firearms (double action, fairly rapid fire, double taps, etc.). Though I found CO2 to work well enough with slower fire (even down to freezing temps), consistency suffered with rapid shooting (which is why B.B. typically does his CO2 target work at 10 second intervals for warm-up time), so, after posting here earlier, I installed an ANT HPA conversion kit.

          I thought about turning my own HPA cylinder on my lathe and making my own “kit” but got impatient and just ponied-up the money for the ANT. It’s a bit fussy to install on the 586 and, honestly, I could make a better kit but it works. The installation is completely reversible but it takes 10 minutes or so to go back and forth–maybe less when switching back to CO2, because it’s a less fiddly task. For the HPA conversion, I removed the CO2 powerlet piercing/pressure foot hardware and used a nut and washer on the ANT air connector to adjust the cylinder force against the inside of the revolver frame. The nut and washer are well hidden with the grips in place.

          I’m using a 48 cu in Ninja tank and regulator. I replaced the coil spring and shims in the reg with a new Bellville stack and shims and it now regulates at 1040 psi (providing a guardband for regulator creep with ANT’s 1100 psi limit). 1100 psi is about as high as CO2 gets on a hot day. I have a very accurate 4-1/2 Wika Pressure gauge and it also says the original coil spring and spacers produced 760 psi.

          At 1040 psi, I get 383 fps average / and a standard deviation. of 4 or 5 fps with H&N Excite Econ II 7.4g pellets when I empty a 10-shot mag rapidly (less than 1 sec between shots). 383 fps is close enough to what this gun produces on CO2 during warm weather (~400 fps) at a much slower fire rate and faster than what CO2 can do this time of year (we’re seeing highs in the 40s to 50s). I use a fanny pack on my hip and a light weight remote line. The 48 cu. in. tank is overkill so I might switch to a 13 cu. in. tank but it’s still comfortable in the fanny pack. BTW, the Econ II is very accurate in my 586 and my Beeman P17. The Econ II pellets are just as good as RWS Meisterkugeln Pistol pellets in these two handguns (even the super accurate P17 when benched with a red dot) and a real bargain. (Sssh–don’t tell H&N or they’ll raise the price like RWS did with their Basics! ;)).

          • Calinb,

            Wow, I wish you were my neighbor. I like to tinker with these things also. I am going to have to look into that conversion kit thingy also. With the right setup, I just might talk myself into one or two of these gas guns. A M712 with one of these things just might be fun.

            I have been trying to get my hands on some of those Excite and Econ lines for a while, but every time I go to PA they are out of them. Maybe I need to look elsewhere?

            Side note: I remember when there was not double tap stuff. You did not need to. With a .45 ACP, .357 Mag or .44 Mag it is a wasted shot.

            • ANT (Advanced Novelty Tech) has a list of which kit variation (type I or type II) fits various guns the best. If you try one, you’ll probably want to use a Belleville spring stack in your regulator to get the output closer to the 1100 psi maximum. I learned how to do it from Bob Stern’s posts in various forums. He’s written about many regulator projects in several forums but his first posts on the subject are from over 10 years ago:
              http://www.airgunhome.com/agforum/viewtopic.php?t=4564

              (Warning for readers here: working with HPA components is potentially a dangerous activity, as Bob also warns.)

              TIp: I fill most of the space in a 13ci tank with BBs to take up air when testing Belleville stacks. Testing is very iterative and you have to degass the tank the each tank so less pumping for me with the tank is full of steel BBs! The first time I did it I cover it with a wooden box for filling. Somehow I could not get a pressure cooker bomb out of my mind! (But my fears were rally quite irrational, given the inertness of steel BBs.)

              Here’s a thread I stated when I regulated my TalonP:
              https://airgunguild.com/ask-bob/jds-regulator-recovery-time-improvement-(and-belleville-tuning-report)/msg25891/#msg25891

              BTW, I prefer the Ninja Tanks and regs or you can get the Air Venturi branded ones from PA too. In my experience, Ninja/Air Venturi have the best piston design and lowest regulator “creep.”

              I snagged both Excite 22 and Econ II 177 pellets from PA and the Econ II really impressed me. I backordered more Econ II but the expected delivery is in June!

      • Cal

        I have learned so many things I did not know about air/gas guns from BB and readers the last several years. Your comments about cold temperature CO2 shooting is certainly new to me.

        Thanks!

        Deck

  7. B.B.,

    A couple things. The 38T is of course, patterened after a Target model S&W chambered in .38 Special. But it is also reminiscent of the lines of the S&W Model 29, as the cylinder profile is longer than normal and looks a lot like that of the.44 Magnum revolver.

    Also, this metal monster was replaced in Crosman’s lineup by the Crosman 357, inspired by the .357 Magnum Colt Python. For a time those, too, were mostly metal, but Crosman cut corners when they went to mostly plastic. (People, order your copy of “The Blue Book of Airguns” and sit with it in your lap as you read this blog every morning like I do!)

    Could you imagine if these were reprised but with the shells and fully rotating cylinder of today’s air revolvers? I get chills imagining it.

    Michael

  8. Michael,

    “But it is also reminiscent of the lines of the S&W Model 29, as the cylinder profile is longer than normal and looks a lot like that of the.44 Magnum revolver.” Take a look at the firearm you are referring too; i don’t see it.

    My S&W N29, 4″ barrel. In 44 Magnum weighs 1,312 grams (2.892 pounds loaded) according to my scale.

    shootski

    • Agreed, Shootski. My Umarex S&W 585 resembles my S&W 29-2 (6″ barrel) in appearance. They have a similar feel too, except the air gun has a lighter double action but the Smith single action breaks like glass.

      • Calinb,

        I thought I was going to need to have a local highly regarded S&W Gunsmith work on the trigger of the new S&W pictured; but was pleasantly surprised that the trigger in double has only a tiny bit of creep and the single action breaks like proverbial glass rod.
        I only wish it didn’t have the lock that none of my older N29 are blessed to not have. It shoots well for a 4″ barrel ;^)

        shootski

        • shootski, Allegedly S&W strengthened newer dashes but the older ones like my 29-2 just have more signs of quality from what I can see (counterbored cylinder chambers, for example), excellent triggers and of course no lock. 🙂

        • shootski,

          If you do have a master S&W gunsmith work on the innards of your 29, ask him if he can deactivate the lock. If so, that should make the trigger both lighter and smoother yet.

          Michael

          • Michael,

            Even though the S&W is machine engraved and nicely blued i got it at a fantastic price when looking for something to use as a backup worn in a chest holster while Boar (and hopefully other dangerous game) hunting with my .58 DAQs.
            So i will avoid target trigger and just keep a very serviceable out of the box gun. The lock makes traveling in some jurisdictions easier also!
            He has worked on a number of my firearms and I have always been happy. He gets interesting online reviews from disturbed customers who don’t like his brusk Attitude! Never had a problem.

            shootski

    • Shootski,

      The model 27 is .357Magnum/.38 Special. The model 29 is .44 Magnum/.44 Special. Both are N Frame, and both below (29 on top) are 12 inches in overall laength and have 6.5 inch barrels.

      Notice how the 27 has a significantly shorter cylinder than the 29. The 27’s cylinder is so much shorter that one can easily see the forcing cone and a section of the ejecting rod. The extra, rotating cylinder of the Crosman 38T makes it look (at a slight distance and in the light of the late afternoon) at least as much like the 29 as it does the 27, even if the Crosman’s frame is dimensionally closer to the K Frame (although it might actually be closer to the N Frame — I just don’t know).

      Michael

    • shootski,

      If you can’t see it, look at the long cylinder of your revolver. It’s as plain as the nose on my face. :^)

      Yep, your 4 incher weighs more than the Crosman 38T. Then again, it is an actual firearm with a forged steel frame. The Crosman is an air gun made of mostly pot metal. Nevertheless, it is among the heaviest of my collection of 200+ air handguns.

      Michael

    • shootski,

      A thought just occurred to me. Every single time I have ever shown my 38T to someone, the reaction was, “Oooh! Dirty Harry!” They always immediately thought it was a replica of a 6.5 inch (for some individual shots they used a hunting barrel model to take advantage of perpective angles) Model 29, as Harry calls it, “The most powerful handgun in the world.”

      Michael

        • Shootski,

          Agreed! Inspector Callahan might have been sore that you demoted him. ;^) (The rank actually varies a lot, from above Precinct Captain to merely above Detective, similar to squad Lieutenant.)

          And you’re right on more than one front: given how easily Harry handles the recoil one-handed, it’s a safe bet he’s loaded with .44 Special instead of Magnum.

          Michael

          • Michael,

            I like my hotdogs with lots of mustard! He was shooting BLANKS! .44 Special loads shot in a .44 Magnum can cause difficult loading of .44 magnum cartridges!
            Bore Snakes do help a little (from experience) since I usually start and end a session with one of my .44 Magnum with some .44 Special and then go to a .22 or even an airgun to keep the dreaded FLINCH away.

            shootski

            • Shootski,

              C’mon. Of course there were blanks in the gun Clint Eastwood held and fired in the movie — it’s a movie! (Even without my Masters in film studies I would have known that.)

              Michael

  9. Revolvers is the topic today so I’d like to follow-up on the problems I experienced the Umarex S&W 586 that I recently purchased. PA customer support was great and exchanged my gas hog 585 for another one. My “good shots” count went from 30 to 50, which is where it should be, and the double action trigger rough spot is gone. This one doesn’t have the typically minor single action trigger creep either. Unfortunately, the rear windage adjustment screw had a malformed circlip slot and the windage mechanism popped-off and the windage circlip and plunger were lost. No replacements were available from Umarex and I didn’t want to roll the dice by sending a good shooting gun to Umarex for warranty so I corrected (deepened) the windage screw groove on my lathe, so the circlip wouldn’t thread-off the end, and made a new plunger myself. The gun functions very well now. I even 3D-printed a tiny custom spacer to remove all windage adjuster backlash. Unfortunately, this second gun’s right side plate finish doen’t quite match the darker black of the rest of the gun but, as others have reported here, Umarex has a history of finish problems on the 585 and I’m happy to have snagged one of these classics before they became extinct so I’ll live with the minor finish flaw.

    -Cal

  10. Hi all,
    Below is a 2018 pic of my Crosman 38T in .22 caliber; the rug looks a bit “patchy” around it as I did a cut and paste to hide the targets on which it is sitting (as B.B. has not yet gotten to the accuracy portion of this set of reports, and I don’t want to mess up his timeline =>).
    I just wanted to show that these are beautiful guns; this one is the first variant, all metal, with metal sights. It handles and shoots well, with the one caveat that B.B. already mentioned – the quirky loading process.
    But these guns are just plain cool. =>
    Blessings to all,
    dave

      • Shootski, I’ll repost it with the groups when B.B. does the accuracy test on the .22 version; I also have some velocity figures, so we’ll see how his gun compares to this one; this should be an interesting set of reports! =>

  11. B.B.,

    This is somewhat OT, but it does have to do with big ol’ revolvers.

    For a few years now I have stumbled upon a few online comments that claimed everything else (weight, barrel length, type of ammo, etc.) .357 Magnums have a bit more recoil than do .44 Magnums, despite the significantly greater power of the .44.

    True? If so, why might that be? If a myth, what might give shooters that impression?

    Michael

    • Michael,

      I have mixed feelings on this one. Here is what I think.

      A hot .357 recoils snappier than a hot .44 Magnum. It pushes straight back into your hand, while the .44 bounces up more. I think this is due to the lighter bullet in the .357 Magnum.

      Here is why I say that. A .45 Casull Magnum doesn’t bounce much at all. It comes straight back into your hand and can break the skin on the web of your hand. To others the recoil looks light. To the shooter is is quick and painful.

      My Desert Eagle in .357 Magnum certainly bounces just as high as a Desewrt Eagle with full house loads.

      If we were to look at the recoil energy numbers, everything I just said would be wrong. The .44 Mag would out-recoil the .357 Mag. and the .45 Casull would top the .44 by a lot.

      BB

      • B.B.,

        I would need to agree with your thoughts for the most part. Recoil is an interesting animal in handguns. The Load (given that we are talking true Magnum loading at all) plays a minor role compared to the following factors I think the geometry of the bore axis to the hand is the key to felt recoil. That means not only bore height(s) but also grip angles and how conformal to that shooters hand the grip stock is. The more form fit to the hand the less felt recoil. I also think that how big of a hand one has plays a major role in all this. Finally level of fitness is a player as always.
        And then we move on to two hand holds…

        shootski

        • Shootski
          I totally agree with you. That’s why I chose a Dan Wesson 357 Mag over a S&W. The recoil is transferred to your palm more with less barrel flip because it is transferred to your arm more than your wrist.
          Small caliber magnums feel like an explosion going off in your hand. 44’s and 45’s slow down that explosion for less of an impact smack in your hand but with more force.

      • B.B.,

        I have read that the less muzzle-flip the better for getting back on target and shooting rapidly. But does muzzle flip help dissipate some of the actual recoil upward instead of directing into the web of the hand, thereby reducing felt recoil? Or does muzzle flip increase the sensation of felt recoil?

        The Chiappa Rhino revolvers have a barrel axis that is almost aligned with the web of the hand. This is supposed to reduce felt recoil (a .357 feels like a .38 Special; etc.). Perhaps all it really does is reduce muzzle flip?

        Pardon me, but this is the sort of stuff I find fascinating.

        Michael

        • Michael,

          Check out my post to Bob M. below for the chart especially on why recoil really isn’t the gun but the load. It can get really complex in how the components come together to provide wildly different recoil.

          shootski

            • Michael,

              There are these SAAMI standards: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=164 A very good read if you don’t have much firearm reloading experience or even fun if you do. I like their perspective most of the time!
              Those SAAMI come into play that make your basic question moot. That kind of comparison probably can’t be safely accomplished even ignoring SAAMI standards and building a Wildcat of each of the rounds. We of the airgun only knowledgeable variety can learn a great deal about our airgunning if we learn a little about the other shooting systems.

              shootski

    • Bob M,

      I bet the choice of propellant makes a big difference in the big caliber magnums. I bet the original Wildcatters/bullet makers can be identified by the recoil profiles caused by their choice of primer/powder.

      Great information beyond what the original Wildcatters were looking for with a triplex of powder for a progressive burn behind the projectiles!

      http://www.ballistics101.com/454_casull.php

      Scary what folks will do! But I guess we give our all for… Look up in the sky! Superman! …FASTER, MORE POWERFUL THAN A SPEEDING LOCOMOTIVE!

      shootski

    • A lot has to do with the grips. Big N Frames came with a variety of grips and that matters a lot one the recoil feeling. The oldest are the service grips common in the “pre-1935” guns. Like the early Heavy Duty or the Outdoorsman (pre-20 and Pre-23 respectively). I find that my 1930-1935 Heavy duty’s just swim in my hand when shooting so they can recoil a lot because the grips are so small. With the Registered Magnum we got the “Magna grip” with the higher horns that come up the backstrap. I find they shoot quite nicely but are not hand filling. My Registered is a 1939 version and it can take hot loads but the recoil could be described as sharp. Next we get the “coke bottle” grips of the 44 magnum and the “target grips” of the Pre-25’s. They are what the pellet gun shown mimic. More the target grip then the coke bottle grip. Real “cokes” are expensive, going for many hundreds of dollars but when you get a set, they can really soak up the recoil of hot loads. They just fill the hand nicely. Do some searches online to see the difference or pick up a copy of the “Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson”. I will say the shooting original (1940’s vintage 357 Magnum factory ammo) out of my Registered was a trip. The recoil is sharp even when shot on of an 8 3/8″ barreled Pre-27 and yes vintage ammo really can churn up 1500 fps range with a 158 over a chrono.

        • 357 would be and is sharper in the wrists my experience while the 44 mag gets you in the shoulder are arms. That is if you are going to do hot loads in both with the same grips.

          I will admit though that I sold my 44 mags as i don’t enjoy them anymore. I determined that the 357 Maximum was my personal limit of enjoyment a few years back and the 44’s took a hike. 357 Magnums are a lot of fun but the 44 (for me) not so much.

          Besides, as the pandemic has shown must of us powder burners, logistics matter. By dropping the 44 Mag, I simplify my logistics. I only have to stock 158 357 JHP’s for both and not two different type of bullets. I won’t stock 429 jhp’s again until in some delusional fit I decide to shoot my 44 Auto Mag.

      • Just as an example, I believe the Crosman 38T was actually trying to mimic this gun. This is a 1955 Pre-25 target revolver. It has been worked over with a Jeweled cockeyed target hammer and has “Coke” grips on it.

        The target is 50 shots at 15 yrds shot offhand. It is a 45 ACP revolver and I find it exceptionally accurate.

          • Its a pussycat to shoot. Big heavy barrel and 230 grn hardball is very accurate and easy to let fly. One lesson learned is the rifling is quite shallow on the Pre-25’s. If you shoot it, you need FMJ bullets or copper bullets to grab the rifling. Lead unless very hard does not “bite” the rifling as well as copper and is not as accurate. If you get really hard lead (Lasercast comes to mind) then you have to match the throats and forcing cone diameter accurately or you will lead. A thousands or two undersize is not good basically.

  12. “Bill C-21 Canada is Going After Your Red Ryder BB Gun”
    Hey all, Hank (Vana2) warned us about this piece of legislation; even though they are trying to ram this stuff through in Canada, it bears watching by other nations as well. Once a piece of poorly-thought-out anti-gun legislation gets passed in one place, anti-gunners somewhere else, using even less thought and no logical analysis, will wish to copy it for their own country…much to the detriment of the law-abiding airgunners there, as is the case with this bogus bill. I pray the Parliament there tosses out this rubbish…make a Red Ryder a prohibited firearm? Insane! =)~

    Oh wait, here’s the link to the video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYZk5GZHxZY

  13. This is a good post, very topical for FM; you had given me a hint B.B. but still had no idea what would be on the menu Friday. Lucky to own an early model, no plastic parts except for the grips. When readying the revolver for shipping to Precision Pellet, Rick Willnecker warned me to “protect the rear sight, no parts available.” He did a very good job rebuilding/restoring it; eager to kill some cans but it’s been too windy for shooting the last few days and Mrs. FM would not be happy to see Worser Half shooting indoors. Do recall about 50 years ago “demonstrating” the 38T to a friend in my room at my mom & dad’s, assuming it was unloaded and leaving a neat-looking hole in the ceiling which remained as a reminder of a young man making an ass of himself by…ass-uming the gun was unloaded. Lesson learned and shared! At least Foolish Man had the sense to point the barrel up before “dry firing.”

    I recall the 38T being pretty accurate and it has enough knockdown power to handle small pestilential critters. My cousin who handed it down to me used to kill rats with it; he was a good shot – some shots were taken at about 20 yards distance and remember rodents somersaulting & cartwheeling when hit.

    Don’t have a chrony – not yet anyway – other projects draining the hobby piggy bank right now – but the last time I fired it, aimed it at a small phone book from about 7-8 yards’ distance and took a couple of shots at it; both “ash can” pellets lodged about 1.0-1.25” deep into the target. Not too bad for a CO2 revolver which had not been fired in 40+ years. The third shot failed – heard the dreaded hiss of a rapidly-leaking gas capsule and I knew it was overhaul time. Earlier, had treated the gas seal with Bar’s Transmission Stop Leak, which revived the 38T for a 5-shot test series, including two dry-fires.

    Pray this isn’t too boring a rant – FM is just happy to see “Ole Ratkiller” – AKA “ORK” – come back for an encore; I’m sure it can still handle cans & creepy critters, as needed.

    First pic is how ORK appeared about 2 years ago after its last shootout, next one shows it after the skillful renewal by Precision Pellet. It’s gonna be a gas in the backyard – literally! 😉

      • RidgeRunner,

        MADE WHERE! “…this low cost Chinese chronograph…” and of course there are some basic problems: “…But without English-language instructions, it’s a bit of a puzzle on how to…” Now wait for it! It gets better! “…Amazon vendor provides what looks like a translation of some instructions…” Followed by tester’s best understatement yet: “In addition, the short, 2 5/8 Inch distance between the sensors could potentially lead to lower accuracy than the 12 In. spacing on the F-1.” No oscillator Clock Rate is reported that gives you at least a chance to figure out shot to shot accuracy.
        Best point is folks you can have it for US $30.00 plus some amount of S&H?
        R.R. really?! It was however, FUN ;^) to read Doug’s write-up…”what lengths we all must go to in order to keep food on the table” kept going through my mind!

        shootski

        • Shootski,

          You are missing it again. This is definitely not for me. I already have a Caldwell. The reason I pointed this out is for those who do not want to spend close to one hundred dollars for a chronograph, which to my way of thinking should be closer to this price anyway.

          I myself so indeed understand the importance of clock rate, distance between sensors, etc. The thing here is most people do not need this thing to be accurate. Most people do not need to even think of having it calibrated. Most airgunners should use something like this as a diagnostic tool. This is how I use mine.

          When I shoot my Maximus across my chronograph, I will be establishing my baseline. Then as I tinker with it, I will be able to check whether my velocities have gone up or down. With any of my other airguns I can establish its “health” by comparing how it is doing to its baseline.

          My chronograph is going to read differently than BB’s or Gunfun1’s or yours. How I shoot across a chrongraph is probably different than how you do. Using the same chronograph and the same airgun, we will likely get different readings.

          Now, if I was into serious airgun competition, I would have to have something like a LabRadar and insure it was properly calibrated at least once a year. I do not need that. I just need to check the health of these ladies around here. I do not need an EKG, a stethoscope does just fine.

          I do think anyone who starts to accumulate several airguns should have a chronograph. But how much of one do they really need?

          P.S. As far as it being Chinese, some buy Chinese airguns. Not me.

          • RR,

            The user reviews are mixed on it, which suggests QC inconsistency, but it’s inexpensive. I’m fine with my ProChrono, but if it were to die on me . . .

            Michael

            • Michael,

              Like I was saying to Shootski, it is not for everyone. It would probably be a good first one, especially to teach a newbie you do not buy Chinese. 😉

              I myself would not buy this as I have my Caldwell. If I were to shoot it, I would buy another.

          • RidgeRunner,

            “Shootski, You are missing it again.” Nah!

            I was pulling your leg, mostly, about the Made in China part! Are you getting targeted by the evil forces by the Middle Kingdom? RidgeRunner? RidgeRunner is it really still you? Or do you need me and a few of my best friends run a RESCUE OP for Mr. and Mrs. RidgeRunner!

            shootski

            • Shootski,

              A rescue op would be pretty cool! Be sure to bring your airguns! I have a new shooting bench, a large compressor and a large bottle! I can supply all the air we will need!

              Bring that new sproinger also. I would not mind seeing one of those things up close and personnel.

      • Took a look – may consider it; have thrown away $30 on far less useful stuff than that. As for the manual…well, it’s definitely Greek to me, but no doubt one can find a deciphered version online somewhere.

  17. B.B. and Readership,

    Many of you are aware that I was an early adopter of pneumatics and joined THE DARKSIDERS many decades ago. I even went so far as to mostly shoot/hunt with high power large caliber BIG BORE PCP.

    Earlier this week one of the last SIG ASP20 airguns arrived at the house along with an airgun specific WHISKEY3 ASP 4-12X44 scope. I spent most of the week with my grandsons who were on a visit touring the little that is actually open of touristy stuff. They headed out today so this afternoon i grabbed a 10m air rifle target, 10 8.2 gn Meisterkugeln, and headed to the backyard to see if the cleaned bore and out of the box rifle and scope combination would shoot for me. I may need to come to the BREAK BARREL SIDE more often!
    I obviously, from the below 10 shot Offhand at 10m results, have a great deal to learn about this SPROINGER
    shooting…. But it IS fun RidgeRunner!
    So no more chatter as Gunfun1 would say, “Show us the pictures!”

    shootski

    • Glad you got your ASP20 especially with the Whiskey scope. I had one on my list but did not pull the trigger.

      In 20 20 hind sight I wish I bought 3 of them with the scope. Two for shooting and one for parts or new in box investment. The scope really adds to the value in my opinion.

      I have my TX200 MkIII, so for a sproinger I am set, I really hate to see a good product go down from the bean counters. They never have the long game in mind. I bet they were making a profit with the ASP20 and would have built a reputation for future airguns.

      Don

      PS: I how is your AV 46M working Out? Mine actually came back better after I sent it in to have the piston stroke set for advertised power. The power is up to snuff and surprisingly the pumping and cooking is so much smoother. I don’t even take my vehicles in for factory maintenance for fear they will come back in bad shape. My Baikal is still a little smoother but it is a close call.

      • Benji-Don,

        I have no idea if any of our Crystal Balls will ever be clear enough to know what we should do or not do when it comes to the future. I learned long ago not to ever fall into the buyers remorse trap based on outside factors. My gut tells me this ASP20 will teach me things and that will give me pleasure…all that one can really ask from a thing.
        My AV 46M is an occasional shooter since I am still waiting for the aftermarket trigger upgrade. I still have the “Hot Spot” on my thumb that needs some wood removed to solve. I need to wait for the trigger to decide which trigger i will go with. That will potentially move the thumb joint and change the spot that may or may not need to be removed. So until they ship I have been shooting my DAQ .308 which i have neglected (i also have a very large amount of bullets cast or purchased for) for too long.
        Plus the grandsons were my prime focus this past week :^)

        shootski

    • I second that! I have a 6 inch barrel one and also the rare 8 inch chrome (not nickel, I think). one. The 6 inch is more accurate, with me, anyway. Yes, you’ve got a nice pellet gun there. Charles Ward called the Daisy 44 the best CO2 handgun the company ever made. And by the way, they are all a bit rare in the U.S., too.

  19. BB
    Ejector / Extractor
    The terms used are obviously a little fuzzy, so I looked into the semantics.
    An extractor (N) removes shells from a cylinder or barrel. An ejector (N) by definition is a device that causes something to be removed or drop out.
    On a semi-auto pistol you have the hook type ‘extractor’ in the bolt face that pulls the cartridge out of the barrel and slams it into a fixed piece of offset metal, the ‘ejector’, that cocks it and forces it out the ejection port of the slide as the bolt with the extractor continues rearward. Two separate components.
    The extractor (N) on a revolver removes the cartridge’s from the cylinder thereby ejecting (V) them from the pistol.

    So, if the extractor winds up removing something, the spent cases, by definition it is also an ‘ejector’. Lets say a dual action device.
    But … when used in conjunction with a discussion of firearms the term ejector is referred to as a device that ‘violently’ removes a spent ‘shell’ from a firearm, and that is all it does. It does not extract shells from a cylinder or barrel.
    So if you ‘violently’ hit the extractor pin of a revolver does it become an ejector(N)? No you are just violently ejecting (V) shells using the extractor (N) and probably should not even own a firearm.
    Bob M

      • I can help you simplify things. Colt calls it ‘Ejector’. Smith & Wesson calls it ‘Extractor’. Same part, same job. No need to come up with nouns vs verbs, etc. Now, in break open or hinge action guns, there are extractors and ejectors based on differing functions.

        • Pacoinohio
          It is what it is. I was just having fun with words utilizing accepted definitions. They both remove something. There is a crane and a yoke too.
          Personally I think it should be simple and based on it’s function.
          An extractor pulls something out and an ejector pushes it out. With that in mind I will call it a cylinder shell ejector myself. And the slide hook … an extractor.
          And to be honest a spent shell ejector on a semi-auto doesn’t do anything but just sit there and cause an ejection because it interferes with a shell extraction. Probably should be called an extracted shell ‘impact pin’ or something similar 😉

          • Bob M-

            I still fail to see the need for renaming the parts on firearm revolvers that have had those names for well over a century. BB’s blog endeavors to share factual information and accuracy in terminology is an important part of this. Trying to force a one size fits all naming convention based on function across all action types, brands, countries of origin, etc., is counter productive. The field’s already been plowed, to use an old farmer saying (and I am an old farmer). Walk into the auto parts store and ask for a See Behind Me Device instead of a Rear View Mirror and report back on the reactions you get. As you say, it is what it (already) is.

  20. BB
    While I was at it … Crane … A large, tall machine used for moving large heavy objects by suspending them from a projecting arm or beam. There you have it, only on a smaller scale. A beam moving a suspended heavy object. The cylinder.

  21. I need to find my 38T. I bought one back in the late 70’s and liked it but it consumed cylinders quickly. I enjoyed shooting the gun, found it accurate but the 12 gram C02 cylinders went fast for my budget back then. As I remember you got about 40 shots or so that we good and solid then it would start to fade and you had to change out to a new one. It was easy to shoot out a 5 pack of 12 gram CO2 in an evening.

  22. I just checked out pictures and details of the upcoming S&W Model 29 Umarwrecks is about to release that Geezer mentioned above. It does look VERY nice, and I’ll likely get one, but with the 8 inch barrel instead of the 6 inch, it looks more like Travis Bickle’s gun than Dirty Harry’s.

    Hmmm. I wonder who was more of an out-of-control killer of sleezebuckets, Travis or Harry?

    Also, the grease gun looks sweet, but how about a Sten? :^)

    Michael

  23. Any opinions from those of us who use the Comments RSS? Recently, I found them to be of little use to view previous comments, especially in older bogs. Today, I am only able to view the last five hours of comments that were all made today. Remember when we were able to see 200 comments? Now we are only seeing 20, which is not very helpful. I used to keep up with all of the Comments RSS feed. Now I might as well just go to the blog and scan for new comments which takes a lot more time. Not happy only seeing 20 now. Sometimes change is not for the better.
    Geo

    • Geo,

      Amen to that!!!!! I am around more and can keep up better,…. BUT,…if an active blog and/or out for the day,… it is useless (almost).

      Hopefully they (IT) can put it back to what it was.

      Chris

    • Geo791,

      I’m just about to give up on getting RSS entirely. Even with my phone app set up to check hourly WordPress is not cooperating and I miss the complete conversation. Looks like its going back to scanning the blog every so often. I’ll keep the RSS feed though as an alert if somebody posts in the past blogs though.

      Siraniko

      • BB,

        If it is like for us,… that is bad for you. If someone makes a post in an old blog (5-10 years old, for example),… and it drops off the 20 limit RSS,… you will never know/see that comment, nor will we.

        Not bad if you are around for the day,… but if you are out for the day, or two,….or if people are working all day,…not so good. 20 comments can take all weekend,…. or can happen in 1 hour.

        I personally will not re-scan the current blog for new comments, or the blog before, or the blog before that,… just to see if I missed something.

        Hopefully they can fix it.

        Chris

        • Chris,

          I can no longer pull up my older blogs to make corrections, so yes, it is like that for me. I just put my head down and soldier on. We will never get WordPress to stop fiddling and IT to stop correcting their website, so I don’t give it a second thought.

          BB

  26. BB, Shootski and All
    This may be a bit long but hopefully it will be my last Off Topic entry. And believe me that won’t be easy. OK, perhaps few and far between. I will be having second thoughts before I jump in with OT subjects.
    I joined my ex in line at a supermarket and the elderly gentleman behind us noticed my Sig Sauer hat and jumped right into conversation about guns. Evidently he was a lawman at some time in the past. In the car my ex says ‘You know, you just made that old guys day. The enthusiasm in his voice leads me to believe you were probably the first person he spoke to all day”
    Being retired I too miss having a lot of quick witted like minded people around me all day and this blog go’s a long way in filling that void but it can easily get out of hand, for me anyway.

    Being successful beyond my youthful dreams and growing old I have become somewhat of an Authoritarian. Not to mention Cynical and Sarcastic. The world we live in today makes it easy.
    I don’t know if I inherited my dry sense of humor from my British relatives or my tour of duty in England but I have no trouble in picking up on every nuance that James Bond comes out with like “Rise to the occasion”.
    Hopefully I can be more straightforward, to the point and on topic in the future.

    Nothing beats Cherry Cheese Cream or Chocolate Pudding Cherry Cream Pie but I’ll take Coconut Custard Cream in a pinch.
    Bob M

  28. I have a .177cal 38T in “excellent” condition, except that it needs to be resealed.
    According to the purchase receipt that was still in the box when I recieved the air pistol, It was originally purchased from a store in St.Catherines, Ontario, Canada in 1983. (The “Crosman Arms/Toronto, Canada” silver sticker is still stuck to the side of the barrel)

    The pellet cylinder is plastic, but the rear sights are metal.

    I will have get a 38T reseal kit and bring it back to shooting shape this Spring.

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