by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The German Zenit air pistol from before World War II is a fascinating collector’s item.
This report covers:
- What should I do?
- RWS Hobby
- Leakage at the breech
- JSB Exact RS
- Trigger pull
- The grip
- Cocking effort
- Summary
I wanted to run 45Bravo’s guest blog about resealing the Crosman 38T today, but it’s long and has a lot of pictures, and today is busy for me, so instead I will test the EM GE Zenit that we started looking at on Monday.
What should I do?
Only one person responded to this request that I listed as a questioin at the end of the last report. Reader 1stblue said I should oil the piston seal. That’s what I was looking for. Now, how is it done? What I did is stand the piston on it’s grip with the muzzle pointed straight up and drop 5 drops of Crosman Pellgunoil down the muzzle. Then I let the pistol stand that way for a day. That gives the oil time to run down the bore and through the air transfer port to get onto and soak into the leather piston seal.
It did work, though I will have more to say about it in a bit. So now let’s look at the velocity. I shot two shots just to get the oil out of the barrel. Then I shot the following with Air Arms Falcon pellets.
Shot………Vel.
1…………..262
2…………..276
3…………..291
4…………..281
5…………..284
6…………..293
7…………..294
8…………..285
9…………..297
10…………299
11…………296
12…………297
13…………299
14…………293
15…………291
I show you this string because it shows that the pistol is still settling down after being oiled. Where to start counting for the record is arbitrary, but I decided to let the first five shots go and start counting at shot 6. If I do that, the average velocity for shots 6 through 15 is 294 f.p.s. I always round off to the closest whole number.
Taking my string, the low is 285 and the high is 299 f.p.s. — a spread of 14 f.p.s for 10 shots. And an average energy of 1.41 foot-pounds.
So, 294 f.p.s for Falcons. That’s a little faster than I expected from the Zenit. Let’s try a different pellet.
RWS Hobby
The next pellet I’ll try is the RWS Hobby wadcutter. I know that the Hobby, though lighter, is also larger at the skirt. And the Zenit isn’t very powerful, so I expected a velocity decrease.
Ten Hobby pellets averaged 237 f.p.s., which was a bit slower than I envisioned. The low was 224 and the high was 259, so the spread was 35 f.p.s. At the average velocity the Hobby produced 0.87 foot-pounds at the muzzle.
Leakage at the breech
Some of you wondered how well this pistol seals at the breech. You didn’t see an over-center cocking link on the pistol and frankly there isn’t one. Because of the oiling, the pistol was dieseling and I saw smoke come out of the breech contact point under the top strap on every shot.
The breech seal is in fine shape. This is a design flaw, not a seal issue. Yes, I could spend the time to make a new leather breech seal that would seal better for a while, but before too long we would be right back where we started from. This seal relies on a butt joint fit and nothing else. It’s always going to leak a little.
The leather breech seal sits flush with the air transfer port in a butt joint. The cocking link holds it down, against the air transfer port.
JSB Exact RS
The last pellet I tested was the 7.33-grain JSB Exact RS dome. Ten averaged 287 f.p.s. with a 27 f.p.s. spread from 273 to 300 f.p.s. At the average velocity the RS pellet developed 1.34 foot-pounds at the muzzle.
Trigger pull
The first stage takes 3 lbs. 2 oz. Stage two breaks at 5 lbs. 7.5 oz. Both stages feel two pounds lighter because of the trigger placement.
The grip
The pistol grip looks nice and rounded, but the heel of my shooting hand hits the bottom of the grip on the right side and it doesn’t feel as nice as it looks. It’s odd because a P08 Luger looks so similar and yet it feels so much better!
Cocking effort
A couple readers thought the top strap might be hard to lift up in the beginning, but it isn’t. Instead of an over-center cocking linkage geometry, all that holds the top strap down are two dimples in the metal on either side of the cocking lever, back by the breech.
The breech is held closed by two dimples in the cocking lever — one on either side of the pistol. They fit into two depressions on an extension of the frame. They may push the barrel back ever-so-slightly but it’s hard to tell. It’s a simple arrangement and it works, but the breech will always leak a little.
The Zenit cocks with just 10 pounds of effort. And, since you use your thumb to press against the cocking lever while your hand pulls the lever up and forward, it feels like even less. This air pistol cocks easily.
Summary
Well, that’s it for today. The EM GE Zenit is a pleasant little air pistol. It’s easy to cock and has a nice trigger pull. I just hope that it’s also accurate.
B.B.,
I think your grip issue with this pistol is because it has a slight arch at the back of the grip which the Luger doesn’t have. I bet your .45s have a flat mainspring housing.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Yes, they do! 🙂
BB
Siraniko,
The flat 1911 mainspring housing is a “new” reintroduction. It has likely been reintroduced to allow the 1911 to “better fit” smaller hands. I have a large paw and the 1911A1 fits in there soooo nice. It also encourages the hand to snug up against the grip safety, which I really like and have never had an issue with.
If I am going to war, I want a full frame 1911A1 strapped to my leg.
BB,
Looking good. Thanks for the clarification on the lock up method/mechanism.
Chris
BB-
Errata- caption for breech seal photo-
The cocking link holds it down, against (?)
As for the pistol’s styling- I have to reside in the ‘Not a fan’ camp. The grip reminds me of the forend of a Romanian military issue AKM. While the vertical grip was useful-ish, the styling led to many unflattering descriptors.
Paco,
I fixed it. That was an odd one! 😉
BB
The new Diana 34 EMS adaptions (update) FYI:
https://hardairmagazine.com/news/ham-exclusive-diana-34-ems-upgrade-strategy-revealed/
Pretty screwed up if you ask me. They should just allow a custom/spec. factory build at time of order IMO and be done with the “upgrade” BS campaign.
Chris
ChrisUSA,
Most serious airgunners, and by that I include most of this blog readers and most other forum participants, want to change EMS barrels and try a gas ram. Diana has “dropped the ball” by making these a dealer only option. Diana warranty work under Umerex is somewhere between horrible and non existent! Now with new importers, I sure it will degrade further….
-Y
Yogi,
It sounds like Diana didn’t think it through before the launch. Again I think the marketeers are at fault.
BB
BB,
Bingo!
Yogi,
I’m not sure if you are still interested on anything about the SIG ASP20 but back a while you posted this on B.B. Part 4:
“Yogi
December 12, 2018 at 3:16 am
B.B.
Another great report on a remarkable machine! I read once that the scope is “optimized” for 14-16 grain pellets.
Yet the recommended pellet is over, just the 16 grain threshold. Is this, do as I say and not as I do???
Hopefully, we can get a 50 yard test and perhaps a test shooting the gun off of no bag, free hand. This would replicate a true hunting scenario.”
Remember I am that Pneumatic and PCP guy that had a strong aversion to break barrels for decades; therefore I have little to none experience shooting them. I only have 50 pellets down the pipe of my .22 ASP20 a (100+ through the .177 ASP20) have only been shooting Offhand at 25 yards but other than when sighting in the two pellets (RWS Superdomes 15.5 gr. and old JSB EXACT, Gray Tin, Jumbo 15.8 gr.) that I have tried, so far my groups have been 1/2 inch or under for 10 shot groups.
My TAB Gear Elite BIATHLON Sling (with an arm cuff) is on backorder so I won’t be shooting 50 yards offhand until I can sling-up; hunting slung-up is how I shoot to make up for being 72 years young!
Let me know if you remain interested in the ASP20 performance and I will keep you in the feedback loop.
As soon as our windy/gusty April weather calms down I will start the search for The Pellet…if there is one…my experience so far is that these barrels are not all too pellet picky or I’m not good enough to tell! I will also schedule some time on the indoor 50 and 100 range at some point to see how much better than me these two ASP20s are on the bench. That is also when I will install the Custom Pellet Drop Elevation Turret. I have no use for it so far since I’m still learning how to shoot a Springer (gas) and searching for the mythical pellet that will make me look good…better? I will also use my LabRadar at the range to get data.
From the DarkSider?
shootski
Chris,
As Yogi says, I am certain anyone buying one of these will want to “do-it-yourself”. I can do most of these same things to just about any airgun now. Why should I spend all of this on the EMS system?
I know, don’t kill the messenger.
B.B.
I thought the purpose of Pellgun oil was so it would not diesel?
-Y
Yogi,
Silicone oil will not diesel. Any petroleum based oil such as Pellgun oil will likely diesel. I am surprised at this low of a compression there is dieseling, but pretty much every sproinger diesels some.
Yogi,
ALL spring guns diesel. It isn’t a problem. It’s detonation that’s the problem.
BB
BB,
Tell me about it. Apparently a leaky piston seal led to the introduction of oil/grease into the compression chamber of my Gamo CFX. when it detonated, it sounded like a .22LR going off, produced a smoke cloud any muzzle loader would have been proud of and destroyed every seal in that sproinger. Thankfully PA was able to rebuild it for me and because they could not prove it was not their fault, they did not charge me for the rebuild.
I have always done as much business as possible with PA ever since.
RR,
I was surprisewd, too. But it happened.
BB
BB
Must say I was not expecting you to say the grip didn’t fit your hand after having just praised the trigger location ergonomics. If the grip felt good would the trigger still feel 2 pounds lighter than actual?
Thanks for showing us why the initial cocking effort is easy.
Deck
Deck,
The distance the trigger is away from my hand is excellent. But the bottom of the grip bears against the heel of my hand in an awkward way.
BB
BB,
I really like how this pistol works. Perhaps you may be able to overcome the leakage issue by the use of o rings or other synthetic seal. I can see where a collector may not wish to do such, but a shooter may wish to.
As for the grip, perhaps it would fit a larger hand better. That pronounced bulge at the back of the grip looks to snug up against the “thumb pad” right well.
All that wood still looks kind of clunky to me, but I have never handled these old air pistols like this.
Going off subject here a bit, well, quite a bit.
I cannot say that I am too crazy about what Daystate has been doing of late. All of these fine tuned electronics to me is an Achilles’ heel. It is fine if Daystate hangs around a long time and keeps all of the different circuit boards and components in stock, but if they do not what do you do with one when it quits?
I have been in electronics for over 45 years now. I have seen a lot of changes in that time. Daystate electronics have changed a lot over the years. Is it reverse compatible? Does Daystate have a large stock of the old stuff?
I know that pricing has a bit to do with it, but is it not funny that the big Daystate seller is purely mechanical?
I agree with you RR. Until retirement, I also spent my work life – and still occasionally do – in electronics and I would also be concerned about future spare parts availability. Stocking old parts for customers? Improbable. No bean counter in Daystate or any other company would allow that for long.
Unlike phones, and even cars, that have a typical planned lifespan 10 years or less, many of us have 50 or even 100 year old guns that, perhaps with a new seal or spring, still work as good as new. I can see fancy electronic guns for competition and – maybe – specialized soldiers but if my life depended on it, a traditional 1911 or 870 would be my choice. No batteries required.
Henry
Henry,
I have a1906 BSA. I had a chance to trade for an Air Wolf a while back. Upon reflection I am glad I did not.
RidgeRunner,
I can see shooting electronics for Off-board use or onboard use at Standardized Hard Points. Deeply Embedded Electronics are a nightmare for consumers that want things that can become heirlooms.
Unless you have an EE degree or Certifications and the knowhow to use a 3 or 4 Level Micro-Min Bench.
Funny, my DAQ’s and SIG ASP20s don’t have any of that electronic stuff embedded or even onboard!
KISS
shootski
KISS is the way to go, most especially if you want it to work many years from now.
Make mine mechanical and mechanically simple, yet effective.
Maybe a piece of vinyl/rubber tubing over the barrel would seal a little better. Is there such a thing as a micro adjust bipod? My shooting rest has that feature, and the Prod wants a ‘kick stand’
Rob
1stblue,
FYI, http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=1687
shootski
Shootski,
Very cool! I love the rear rod/knob/gearbox adjustment. Surprised they have not shown up in air gun bench rest yet,… at least not that I noticed.
Chris
Shootski,
You had better not let any of those Extreme Benchrest shooters see this. They will be taking their kids Legos and Tinker Toys and building bipods. What?! None of them are motorized with adjustment buttons built in close to the trigger?! I will bet the trigger is a switch on some of them.
I have wanted one of those wide foot bipods I have seen in photos, but they are very expensive. These dudes have gone over the top with it though. Once again we see a shooting sport taken to the point that if you cannot pay, you cannot play.
RidgeRunner,
Yup!
My son and daughter built all manner of shooting systems starting with their Duplos and really getting fancy with their LEGO Bricks. Now my grandsons are doing the same with them!
I guess I’m old school and believe i need to be portable with my shooting gear. If folks just learned to use slings for more than carrying or to show off the fine tooled leather they bought…not made!
shootski
Shootski,
What can I say? I am pretty much old school myself.
Off Subject: More info on the Diana 34 EMS upgrades https://hardairmagazine.com/news/ham-exclusive-diana-34-ems-upgrade-strategy-revealed/
This rifle had lots of scoffers when BB started reviewing it (grease tune). Looks like it’s shaping up to be a dandy.
Doc
Doc,
Not from what I have been reading. I would rather have an older Diana 34 with a T05 or T06 trigger. I have a Diana 46E here at RRHFWA that has a T05 trigger. Nice.
Change calibers? I can do that now on many airguns and it sounds no more difficult than with this thing. I can change calibers on my Webley Service MK2 in seconds. That is how it should be.
Send it off and have the metal sproing replaced with a gas sproing? I did that many years ago with my Gamo CFX. Now I have the equipment and experience to do it here.
Pay extra to upgrade from glowy thingy sights to real sights? I have already done this with my Maximus and tossed those glowy thingys in the parts box. It is a shame because they are pretty well made. It is just that they are glowy thingys.
Barrel droop? Like has been pointed out, why not build it right the first time? Over the years the infamous Diana barrel droop has been compensated for.
The stocks? They are both b’ugly. What is this thing with the plastic stocks?! It seems all of the manufacturers are listening to their marketeers who are telling them we want plastic stocks with pistol grips and / or thumb holes. I have nothing against plastic stocks. I have one on my Maximus and I really, really like it. It is a solid, well built design. It also has the classic lines. I never owned a Mattelomatic for long.
I know, I know. Just because I do not like it does not mean that everyone else should dislike it also.
Ridge,
Hmmm. But doesn’t it come down to shooting smoothness and most important of all, accuracy? Both are coming to be in BB’s review so far. Please don’t feel like I’m the enemy. I do agree it should have never had barrel droop to begin with. That said, I’ve never owned a Diana.
Doc
Doc,
I for one do not feel you are the enemy, most especially if you disagree with me. Almost everybody disagrees with me.
Shooting smoothness is one of the prerequisites of good accuracy in a sproinger. Another is a very predictable trigger. With experience one can work with things as they are, but why? There is better already out there. Should we give our hard earned money to companies that have taken a step back instead of forward? Diana had once again achieved a superb trigger. Now they have thrown it all away and started all over.
B.B.,
She may not be a speed demon, but she is a sweet-looking pistol, kind of classy in my book.
I hope she shoots as good as she looks. Happy Easter to you! =>
Take care & God bless,
dave
Dave,
Happy Easter to you, too. 🙂
BB
Off topic. Crosman has changed the thread on the pressure gauge on several air guns. According to Hard Air Magazine the old parts have been discontinued and are no longer available, but a work around is available.
Crosman pressure gauge changes to Benjamin Marauder:
https://hardairmagazine.com/news/benjamin-marauder-pressure-gauge-change-vital-information-for-owners/
Crosman pressure gauge changes to Crosman Challenger 2009 and Crosman and Benjamin PCP pistols:
https://hardairmagazine.com/news/crosman-challenger-2009-pressure-gauge-change-vital-information-for-owners/
Don
Don425,
I read that too Don!
All I could think of was the proper Tap & Die, LOL!
shootski
My question is, did they fire the engineer who came up with the tapered thread idea?
RidgeRunner,
I think they did! And that engineer took his tapered thread Tap and Die with him!
shootski
Shootski,
I learned what little I know of mechanical engineering mostly from experience and abstract thought. For the life of me, I cannot think of a reason for tapered threading except it is to be a pressure release point.
RidgeRunner,
NPT (National Pipe Tapered) is for low-pressure and non-hazardous materials and usually requires pipe dope, PTFE (TEFLON tape,) or some other sealant. NPTF (National Pipe Tapered Fuel) is for hazardous materials and high pressure containment. The taper is such that there is a much more uniform crush of the thread surfaces when it is tightened that no tape or sealant is needed or desirable as in the case of corrosives.
So the cost of the Tap & Die is higher but mostly the cost of the required inspection plugs and the labor is significantly greater.
To safeguard the ignorant or the STUPID who open a pressurized system’s threaded couplings:
Pressure release is done with a through drilled port or a partial notch in the thread on one set of the threads. Then they only leave deposits in their Skivvies (undershorts) rather than loosing body parts!
I hope i havent offended or insulted you R.R.! Most of the information is for the new to the World Very high pressure airguns.
shootski
PS: I can’t believe my SPELL CHECKER actually auto changed the spelled out names for NPT and NPTF! The “T” does not stand for thread!
Don,
It seems they went from the standard tapered pipe thread to a straight bolt thread.
I would think that would allow more tolerance in the machines and machining. So cheaper to manufacture.
I would say the new method may seal better on the first assembly but what about if the guage is removed? Can it be reinstalled without a leak?
Don
Benji-Don,
Do you really give them that much credit?
I think someone (who knows if it is even In House) just ordered the wrong replacement tooling when the one tapered thread Tap & Die set they had purchased 10 years ago was lost, wore out, or that engineer they fired (that i told RidgeRunner about) took it with him/her.
shootski
Don
The article says that an “elastomer seal” is used in the straight thread design for a better seal than that with the tapered thread (pipe thread) design and Teflon tape. If this is true, then it should fix the air loss problem mentioned in several customer reviews of these air guns, and result in fewer warranty returns.
It is not clear if the seal is reusable. It might be like a hose washer and be single use.- Don
B.B. and Readership,
So you say you have a Gas-Piston that you want to last as long as possible?
I found this during a hunt for a Special Easter egg for the Airgun Academy Readership: “The gas spring long life is a function of the correct lubrication of the seals. The spring must therefore always be installed with the rod directed downwards or with the rod guide in a lower position with respect to the cylinder attachment.
In some applications, as those described in figures above (e.g. car boots), the opening movement of the spring may cause it to rotate upwards between the fully open and fully closed position. Here also attention should be paid to installing the spring with the rod directed downwards when it is in its fully closed position, and compressed inside the cylinder. Such recommended position facilitates the lubrication of guide and seals, while delivering an excellent braking effect.
The rod surface is important for maintaining gas pressure and should therefore not be damaged by blunt or abrasive objects or by any corrosive chemical substance. When installing the gas spring, the upper and lower fittings should be aligned so that the seal is not under strain. The alignment must be maintained throughout the entire rod stroke. Should that not be possible, use jointed attachments which allow the alignment.
Vibrations on the machine to which the gas spring is applied may be discharged onto the seals through attachments that are connected too rigidly to the frame. Leave a small clearance between the fixing screws and the attachments or fix the spring using at least one jointed attachment.
We recommend fixing the spring using smooth pins and not threaded bolts as the thread crest, in contact with the attachment hole, exercises friction that may contrast the gas spring correct functioning.
When applying the gas spring, make sure the pulling forces are not greater than the gas spring thrust force, so that the normal rod sliding speed is not exceeded.
The normal operating temperature for a gas spring ranges between -30 °C and + 80 °C.
Particularly damp and cold environments may create frost on the seals and compromise the gas spring duration.
The gas spring has been designed and manufactured to lighten or counter-balance a weight that is otherwise very heavy for the operator or for the structure into which it is inserted. Any other use it may be put to (shock absorber, decelerator, stop) should be carefully assessed by the designer and the manufacturers with regard to durability of the spring and to safety.
More information is available at: https://www.vapsint.com/en/technology-and-characteristics-of-gas-springs/
A Happy Blessed Easter to those that celebrate that; He is Risen!
Enjoy the Spring (Fall [for those readers Down Below!]) weekend for all of you!
shootski
BB,
That leather seal looks like a really good recipient for the baking soda+CA glue+O ring treatment. The wiping downwards -as-it-mates seal would respond to the compressibility of the Oring nicely. What stops the barrel from shaking around as it cycles? The lever and those divots? The barrel pivot and breech seating is similar to the Webley pistol barrel system if I recall correctly. …
Silicone oil. I have found that Radio Control cars use this in their gear boxes and you can get any weight of oil you can imagine. From thinner than water ( = 1 ) to thousands of times thicker. Would this be the best lubricant for the piston tube in a sproinger? Does it diesel ? Would you use less for the same about of lubricity compared to relatively sticky grease? Is this the secret sauce? I can buy a small ish tube of this stuff for about $10 and it’s very slippery indeed. I should imagine a very small amount is needed to lube the tube and piston. !?!? Will it run off? Will it react with anything? So many questions! Thank you. : – ) Robert.
Robert,
Too many questions. I have addressed the lube issue for springers many times in my tuning reports. Check out tune in a Tube on the Pyramyd website.
Yes, the overlever and divots keep the barrel tight.
BB
BB,
Roger that, will try to reign in my questions. Actually I will attempt to answer them myself! Will have a look at the product. Robert.
Ruminating on triggers.
I have been looking at the Diana T06 trigger group. And some things came home to roost. ( my journey to enlightenment is always circuitous …) this system is interesting as it validates ideas that I had come up through my own thunking.
The idea that you have two separate systems working, one trips the other. In the Diana T06 example you have a piston hold back catch. It is resting on a block held up by a pin. The second system “kicks the block out” and the hold back catch gives way. In reality a spring yanks the block out after it’s hold back has been released. This second hold back is released indirectly by the trigger ( the trigger is “floating” , so it is the third system ). So you have three systems which all operate consecutively, albeit very quickly, to divorce the trigger from the actual hold back forces. In Electrical engineering we can do this with a relay. A low current switch that indirectly ( using magnetism ) controls a high current switch. There probably is a special name for this kind of thing.
Fettling: Because the “trigger” is under very little strain is can be adjusted to do pretty much what ever we like. make it heavy, light, single stage, two stage, or even directly acted on. ( the “stage” part can be removed entirely ) So essentially if the spring hold back/sear part of the trigger group functions properly, the trigger part can be altered dramatically to suit the taster of the shooter.
A different approach would be to change the spring powered sear release with a hammer. The reaction of the spring is crucial to the “sear” releasing. A hammer would be more aggressive I feel. But we are talking about minuscule amounts of time and energy here, would it make a difference? The hammers used in PCP air guns have been very well looked at. This engineering could be retro fitted into the springer trigger group very easily to produce a different trigger set up. I do not see any major issues here. the Trigger can be cocked with the charging lever, as the T06 trigger safety etc does and bingo you have a very usable trigger which can hold back any amount of force.
So the T06 has a sear that is operated by a spring, the sear is released by the trigger and the spring does the work. If the spring and trigger was replaced with a hammer and trigger would this be of any benefit? I suspect the hammer with take some time to release ( slow reaction time ) but will hit sharply. An interesting design observation is that other systems are reliant on all of this: the trigger reset, the auto safety and anti drop mechanism, this is a lot to have workign simultaneously! OK I will shush now. : – ) Robert.
Robert,
A hammer tripped (springer) trigger sear????????,….. interesting.
Chris
Chris USA.
Sure. There is no reason why you could not do this. You either let a spring whip the rotating block out of the way OR you knock it out of the way with a hammer. The T06 and similar types have a pawl which is released. This pawl and it’s spring loaded block is the part you feel when you pull the trigger. How it “feels” , to a degree, depends on the set up of the lash adjust screws which we term “stage one” and “stage two” . Essentially they condition the trigger to feel inn a certain way. The real core of the trigger feel is the interface of the pawl in the block. It has to have no creeep, has to reset back if you let off the trigger and it has to break clean. This is all under the tension of the main spring via the piston hold back pressing down on the rotating block and the spring that rotates this block out of the way .
If a hammer was used to knock this block out of the way it is not resisted by those two springs. It is fully floating.
In the T06 I would consider it partially floating. The same as my Theoben trigger group in my gamo, which is worse as it does not have a pawl at all. It has one less moving part and suffers from serious trigger mush, zero break. A very safe and cheaper design but 100% mush.
The interesting part about the hammer design is that it uses a small delicate hammer to release a much larger rugged one. Cascading events. etc. Just ruminating… : – ) Robert.
Robert,
It has been a long time since I handled one, but I think that the TC Contender pistol had a trigger system not unlike what you describe. A first group (to call it something) that ‘kicked the block’ out of the second group, thus releasing the hammer.
I better shut up, I do not remember enough details to be useful.
Henry
Henry_TX,
Hey nice will have a look see. and after some digging it looks like straight forward three part set up. 1) Trigger lever. 2) pawl/sear 3) hammer. uh that is the G2 Encore trigger. Can’t seem to find the G1…. would be surprised if the G1 is a “block kicker”. For the record the reason why I say pawl is: the hammer or other rotating part is in essence a single click ratchet. The “pawl” holds it back. In most triggers there is a “pawl”, there may be levels before and after this which can be confusing or it might be super simple. If you have ever released a ratchet under load by pulling the pawl out ( ratchet strap are easy ) …you get the drill. I kind of feel that the pawl is more widely understood and relatable than a sear. Especially when it’s not quite apparent which part is what. imho. : – ) Robert.
The TC cocks an internal striker (part 84-1) when the pistol is opened. It allows to ‘dry fire’ the weapon.
After loading a cartridge, the hammer is cocked and held by the sear (part 173). When the trigger is pulled, the striker hits the sear (the block you mentioned) which releases the hammer. I have an exploded view and I will try to attach it.
Henry_TX,
Wow we posted at the same time. Yes I have seen this diagram but it’s really difficult to see how it works. The G2 makes sense, it’s quite straight forward but the G1… not so easy. There is a lot of machining in those parts, that can’t have been cheap! Thank you! Robert.
Henry_TX,
Here is a diagram of my concept. The hammer has be released and has knocked the block out from under the “dead fall”. 1) is a single stage trigger lever, 2) is the sear/pawl, 3) the hammer, 4) the rolling block. 5) the main spring falling hold back. The hammer could actually use the block pivot, and the sear/pawl could be the trigger, so only two pivots are needed. only four moving parts. The way the pawl/sear disengages from the “block” is the big deal as far as trigger break is concerned. If I had the right names for everything … oh well make it up! Robert. PS. the pic is fuzzy, no it’s not your eyes!
Robert,
I have asked myself many times why some companies work so hard, adding so many levers, pins and springs to produce horrible triggers. The concept you visualized is perfect, at least in my mind. On one hand, the system is safe as far as shock is concerned because the block (4) won’t move easily. On the other the ‘human interface’ (the trigger itself) only handles the pressure of the hammer so it can be made with one or two stages, light, adjustable for pull and overtravel, etc.
Oh well, maybe one of these days I get the time to learn how to use a 3D printer and make a model myself. That would be fun.
Best,
Henry
Henry_TX,
The Diana T06 trigger , for example, has a lot going on in it. and this is why things get busy. I guess to make a trigger that is not infringing on a patent, has all the bells and whistles….must be impossible! To make a trigger accident proof is a whole new kettle of fish, heck!
Two safety problems with my design: a) the block can b o u n c e forward if you slammed it really hard butt first ( block bounce ) , B) the pawl/sear can disengage if you dropped the rifle upside down hard. These are two separate events that will cause a discharge, the red arrows show the direction the part has to travel. But the design is a proof of concept not a total solution.
Use 3D printer( what is that ? ) I will make a mock up with a slab of wood, steel rod ( Reinforcing bar ) and ply wood cut outs. Too easy! A CNC mill did you say! Now you have my attention! But for the heck of it just imagine this a bench shooter with a hair trigger not a 100% safe while RTF rugged as all heck utility rifle. A safety consideration in design is that the trigger unlatches all the moving parts as it is about to operate the sear/pawl lever. and yes that is going to introduce yet another layer of complexity! Essentially it’s logic in motion. : – 0 Robert.
RobertA
Can you repost both pictures. Hard to see. They are too dark. Use a flash this time for the picture if you could. Thanks
BB and all in the Peanut Gallery,
Happy Easter to All! What does a bunny and eggs have to do with this day?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Well,… I googled eggs, bunnies and Easter, connected? This is what pulled up. Take your pick. Theories vary. There does seem to a historical basis to it all,… albeit somewhat muddled.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=eggs+bunny+easter+connected%3F
Happy Easter to you as well.
Chris
Happy Easter everyone.