This report covers:
- New projects
- Don’t incorporate more than one new concept
- Large companies
- Management from the top
- Management by the sales team
- Management by spreadsheet
- The champion
- Killer ideas
- Idea 1— reinvent the wheel
- Idea 2 — bring back the past
Today is targeting airgun makers — not buyers like us. They need help sometimes, too.
How do new projects get started in companies? Let’s start with a smaller company first. A one-man company has an idea he thinks a lot of people would like. This is where things get risky. If he has made things before, he knows what it takes. A guy like Dennis Quackenbush knows what it will take for him to make a big bore airgun. He needs metalwork skills, woodworking skills and bluing skills.
He does not only have to know how to make something, if he wants to sell it to other people, he needs to know how to make it safe. For instance, if someone tells him that people want a muzzle-loading air rifle, he knows that a muzzle loader air rifle with a leaky valve will shoot on its own when the pressure builds up high enough.
If he makes a .50-caliber rifle, he needs to make the bore size right to accept a lead ball or bullet that is commonly available. If his .50 won’t fit anything people can get, it is of no use to anyone.
Don’t incorporate more than one new concept
One-man shops have to be careful to limit their horizons. For example, don’t invent a .14-caliber rifle that you also have to create the ammo for. Sheridan was playing chicken with their future when they made their airguns for a caliber that was not already on the market. Ironically, the first Supergrade prototype was a .22, because there were no .20 caliber pellets available.
Here is what it sounds like at Sheridan. “We make our rifle in .20 caliber and then we will own the market for its ammo.”
Outside Sheridan they are saying, “I’d like to get a Sheridan, but they’re the only ones making pellets for it. If they go out of business, I’m stuck.”
Large companies have several different development problems. The first is the boss.
Management from the top
The bane of the large company is top-down management. The boss wants something and it becomes the staffs’ job to make it happen. Maybe his big thing is long range accuracy. So he wants the most accurate 100-yard airgun. Everything else is subordinate to that one goal.
What you see from the outside is long development hours poured into the one project. If the boss is really crazy maybe he’ll even invent contests that prove his gun is the most accurate at 100 yards. To get competitors interested in his contest, he’ll pour big prize money into the contest that is structured around his design.
This was done in American flat-track motorcycle racing after World War II. If your engine was a flathead (Harley and Indian) it could displace up to 750 CC. If it had overhead valves (the British “lightweights”) it could only displace 500 CC. That supposedly leveled the playing field, as the horsepower of both flathead and overhead valve engines of those displacements was similar. What it really was, was a thinly veiled way of keeping Harley and Indian in the competition when the British twins started showing them up in the 1950s. Extreme Benchrest is the airgun equivalent of American flat-track motorcycle racing.
Management by the sales team
In this kind of company the boss doesn’t shoot. He’s a skier, so he really doesn’t connect with the product they make. Fortunately for him, his vice president of sales is on top of things.
The sales VP is also not a shooter, but he has his finger on the pulse of the market — or so he thinks. His four largest accounts are three chain stores and one online website that is both a wholesale and retail seller. Extra points for guessing who that is. He watches what the big accounts buy and makes certain his company has plenty of those kind of airguns to sell. That has worked well for the past 10 years. However, there have been several changes at the top because the investors aren’t satisfied. The sales VP made a huge sale to a discount chain 18 months ago, but the CEO was fired by the board when the product returns (airguns sent back) from that chain overwhelmed the company and gave them a 4th quarter loss last year.
Management by spreadsheet
Numbers don’t lie, is the motto in this company. Yes, but they also don’t tell the truth. They can be made to say anything you want when they are presented creatively, so in this company we decide what we want to do and then structure the numbers to show that in a good light.
If a large company has someone inside who understands airguns and if the company will allow this person to take the lead and make significant development decisions, they may have a winning formula. Crosman did this when they allowed Ed Schultz to develop the Benjamin Discovery in 2006 and then the Benjamin Marauder the very next year. Of course he didn’t do it all on his own, but he was given some latitude to put in features that he knew airgunners wanted. As far as I know the Marauder and its related family are still going very strong fourteen years after their inception. The Discovery went away, but not before it spawned several other precharged rifles that took its place.
I don’t have a killer idea for the little guy but for the large company I have several.
Idea 1— reinvent the wheel
This one came straight from this blog. Take an airgun that you now make and see what upgrades can be put into it. Just for example, take the Benjamin 397 and add superior wood, a great trigger and more accuracy. Call it the Regent Grade 397 and list it for $800. What you have done is make a modern Sheridan Supergrade. You won’t sell very many, but the prestige it brings to your company will be valuable. I submit the following air rifle for your consideration.
BB’s Regent Grade Benjamin 397 proposal.
Idea 2 — bring back the past
I suggested this next idea in 2003 to Joe Murfin who was the Daisy VP of marketing at the time. Make a small run of Daisy wire-stock first model BB guns. I told Joe people would pay hundreds of dollars for such a gun. They had already paid someone $400 for one that didn’t actually work. Yes, a man had made a wall-hanger Daisy wire stock that he sold for $400 in the 1990s and he sold all of them!
I thought the idea was ignored, but in 2007 Daisy came out with 1,000 of these BB guns and they were made just like the originals, except the caliber was for modern steel BBs — not for lead BB shot. They sold for $300 each.
Daisy’s 2007 remake of the first model wire stock BB gun.
Did they make a lot of money, selling them at $300 apiece? No. But they cemented their place in history for doing it.
Okay, I’ve got you started. Now you readers can take over and tell these companies what you really want.
86 thoughts on “When you don’t know what to do”
Somebody must invent a marketing program for the backyard shooters. Realistic range and realistic accuracy. How do you revise the thinking of the faster is better crowd? How do you entice them (the marketers) to change their focus? How can they show the family fun to hoplophobes?
Need to find a way to create an arms race to the quietest, most accurate (10 to 15 meters / yards), backyard friendliest airgun for less than $100. Perhaps with a quality adjustable stock that will grow with a kid.
If you want to make a company successful keep the ‘Bean Counter’ on a short leash or threaten to use the leash to hang ’em if he/she ruins the company.
I’d like an underlever plinker. Something in the power range of a Diana 24 or HW30S and nicer than the Browning Leverage. The Diana 430, HW57, and Air Venturi M1A are all a too powerful for backyard plinking.
And I still want to see Lee-Enfield and M1 Garand air rifles. Air rifles are reasonably popular in the US, UK, and other Commonwealth countries, so it’s amazing to me that for air gun milsurp-ish replicas, we seem to be limited to Mausers, the M1A, and airsoft adaptations (leaving aside the niche BB Enfield in the UK).
I’m not picky whether the base platform is a springer like the Diana, a gas ram like the Crosman DPMS Classic, a multi-pump like the Crosman M4-177, or even a single-stroke pneumatic like a Daisy or a P17. It needs to:
1) Look reasonably like the firearm without sweating the details (the Diana is a good baseline)
2) Be fun (easy to shoot, reasonably accurate at 15 yards, quiet, have sights that are easy to use)
Note that many of the ‘easy to shoot’ bits argue against a powerful, hard-recoiling rifle!
On the topic of the sight and the mounting optics – including a small dovetail to picatinny adapter would be a thoughtful touch. and adjustable plastic peep seems to be something that Air Venturi has figured out on the M1A.
There’s also the option of a fixed peep/ghost ring like on the ‘M1 Carbine’ Ruger 10/22. It wouldn’t be that far off from the cruder battle sights that are presented on No.4 Lee-Enfields when the adjustable sight is folded down.
On the issue of reducing sales risk – it might be worth stealing an idea from Kickstarter projects and video game presales and including some exclusive accessories – say slings or a plastic bayonet. If demand for those accessories takes off, you can always run off more later, after all.
An underlever plinker! That would be novel.
I’d buy an underlever plinker if it were easy-cocking and lightweight. (For an underlever I would consider 7 pounds or less to be plinker-weight.) I have three underlevers I bought to be used as plinkers, including a TX200 (too heavy), a Diana 50 (slightly too heavy and hard-cocking). The third is a Weihrauch HW77, which cocks easily as it is slightly detuned, but it is still slightly too heavy.
As far as I can tell the only lightweight underlevers being made today are Snowpeak or Norinco B-3 based rifles. They are low-powered, but B.B.’s report on older one back in 2018 had it cocking with 32 lbs. of force, not exactly a lazy day plinker.
As you are well aware, there is no such critter. You may as well be searching for a hephalump or woosel.
Now, if you were to find an old Gamo CF series air rifle, you could be well on your way. Gamo even makes a new “and improved” CF-X, but PA does not carry it.
The CF series are all spring powered I believe, so by shortening the spring you will reduce power, cocking effort and recoil effect.
Also, the design allows you to install a gas spring for more power if you desire and do not mind being slapped side the head. Ask me how I know. 😉
I meant would you want one if they did exist.
Nathan, great ideas!
They used to make them. My 1906 BSA shoots at around 600 FPS. If you look around, these old BSA’s show up every once in a while. They are not real cheap, but not bad priced either. The quality will be through the roof. They are also very accurate.
I’m with Roamin’ — great ideas!
“Reducing sales risk”? I’d say a lot of these companies are already reducing the risk of sales quite a lot as it is!
You forgot the most important thing! Hire a smart guy like Ed Shultz, or Ben Taylor, or David Theobald, or Dennis Quackenbush. lol.
A Benjamin 397 with proper scope mount and a good trigger would sell for sure.
I would add, proper scope, peep, or red dot sight mount.
I want to see that 397 do 1 MOA or near it before I would buy…
The 362 is a good start. It is low priced, so it is attractive to the newbie and it is easily upgraded by the more experienced. As BB suggested to offer the Regent Grade 397, an upgrade for the 362 could easily be done and it could still be quite affordable for manufacturing and customers. Install the steel breech, a LW barrel and a Williams peep and you have taken this little plinker to a whole new level and have done such without breaking the bank.
TCFKAC has perhaps the worst trigger for sproingers there is. This trigger may make the lawyers happy, but no experienced shooter will buy one of these things unless that person knows how to modify that trigger to where it is usable. I own a fair amount of quality airguns, but I only own a Crosman 101 and a Maximus. Fortunately, the 101 trigger does not need modification and I know what to do with the Maximus trigger.
Work on your triggers. Seriously. The Marauder has a decent trigger. Your European competitors have some mighty fine sproinger triggers.
Go your own way. Do not get caught up in all of the races. “Our competition is coming out with a multishot sproinger! We need a multishot sproinger!” No, you do not. First and foremost you need to make a decent sproinger.
Once upon a time you had arguably the world’s best multipumps. Do so again.
You have entered the semi race with the SAM. You should have given it a different name than Marauder. OK, what is done is done. Fix the trigger.
The Fortitude is a great idea. What took you so long? Fix the trigger.
Why are you buying the Turkish air rifles and marketing them as your own? I have to admit they are much better quality than the Chinese air rifles that several other companies are marketing as their own. No, they are not as cheap, but they are still what many experienced shooters would consider affordable.
“an upgrade for the 362 could easily be done and it could still be quite affordable for manufacturing and customers”
I am in 100% agreement with RidgeRunner on this one. I keep searching online for the latest info on the Crosman 362. I already want one, but the first thing I plan to do it to start modifying it.
I want a metal breech, a custom barrel, and a metal endcap and barrel band; and also, a nice wooden stock, and a good trigger; if you sold a customized version of the gun that had these goodies on it, then I would buy that (oh, yes, it also would be great with a peep sight already on it, as RR noted), as it would save me a lot of time.
I am very happy with your 1377, that I have now turned into a 1322 (see pic below), complete with custom stocks, custom internals, custom 12″ barrel, custom aluminum end cap and barrel band (which I had to buy and then cut off the front sight already on it that I did not need), steel breech, steel target rear sight, and custom trigger.
Would I have paid you $500 for this gun? Gladly, as it would have saved me a lot of time and aggravation. It’s perfect now, but it took too much time to get it to be that way.
Your Crosman 362 is a great idea, but it would be even better if you either: 1) also offer an upgraded version, or 2) make ALL the parts available so we can make our own upgraded version.
Thank you for listening, and have a blessed day,
Join forces with centerfire rifle manufacturers and make a basement friendly airgun version of the most popular big game rifles with the same heft, balance, and feel (same trigger). Sell them together as a package deal. Deer hunters everywhere will become crack shots because they will have the best practice tool they can use all year in their basements and back yards.
Make a trigger that is fully adjustable but safe (hide all the screws behind sheet metal and warnings and use screws that need non-typical screw bits, for example). Centerfire rifle makers have figured out how to make a safe, adjustable trigger (kudos to Savage), and you can too.
Make things in America, or at least in a country that does not steal our IP or create strife in the world. What will happen to the airgun and firearm market when sanctions are imposed on Turkey and China forbidding the import of weapons, like what happened with Russia? Major supply-chain disruption. What’s your back-up plan? I’ve been reading old blogs where folks laud the IZH rifles and pistols that can no longer be imported.
Good one on the USA manufacture!
Made in the USA might be a bridge too far regarding price. Is there a springer that is currently made in the USA? The blood of the bean counters must be sacrificed to make this happen! Roamin Greco’s idea of an underlever as a base makes sense as that action is slim enough to be skinned as a regular rifle. Keep the power down (around 12-14 fpe?) so you don’t need thick steel resulting in a lighter unit. Maybe we can learn from the boffins across the pond who are sleeving their pistons down to 21mm (why that particular diameter I have no idea). Make the sights peep by default but with Picatinny rails available for scope mounting. Sidelevers feel ungainly to newbies. The concept can also be applied to breakbarrels though (the beancounters should leap for joy because this is cheaper than an underlever).
“The blood of the bean counters must be sacrificed to make this happen!”
Make this the company motto to be displayed in the main entrance.
Siraniko, I cannot take credit for the undercover pinker idea. It was Nathan (chanman819).
Some fact check is needed here. Turkey is our strongest Nato ally, and the Turks sure don’t need our IP.
I have a lot of respect for the Turks and Chinese people I have met in my life. It’s the rulers you read about in the “news” that create cause for concern. As for China, they are, unfortunately, notorious for stealing Intellectual property, and Turkey is, frankly, Turkey’s biggest ally. That they are the U.S.’s “strongest” NATO ally is debatable. They may or may not be the strongest among NATO countries, and they may or may not be our most loyal (strongest) ally in NATO. Are they a stronger NATO ally than U.K. or France? This blog is not conducive for editing, footnotes, or truly scholarly discourse, so I will not debate the matter with you. The main point of the comment is to encourage manufacturing in the USA, because politics and other circumstances can change rapidly, but for many reasons, the US has been importing lots of guns from Turkey and China lately.
Dear Roamin Greco,
I didn’t say you didn’t have respect to them.
I wouldn’t believe everything in the news.
I meant to say the most powerful when I said the strongest.
U.K., France, Germany, Italy, and Turkey are all the same in that department.
This is not a debate, just a friendly chit chat.
Buy American air guns then.
I told my opinion like everyone else here; I hope there are no hard feelings about that. I just don’t think there will be a long lasting sanction like what happened to Russia against a NATO ally. My humble opinion on what you said, that’s all.
Would like to see Diana make available a LW or similar barrel for the Diana Chaser pistol/rifle with a good trigger. I enjoy my accurate 2400KT and 1300KT airguns with Lothar Walther 14” barrels. Sure wish Crosman would reopen Crosman Custom.
That sounds easy enough for almost anyone to do! 🙂
Easy for Diana and Crosman too?
Are you being snippy, or just asking?
Deck tells me he’s just asking. Since the barrel on a Diana Chaser is a separate item, it should be quite easy to replace with a Walther barrel.
Tape for reloading the bug buster 2. Check this out for reloading the magazines.
It is paper medical tape, it tears in random patterns easier than painters tape, and looks a lot like what is on the factory loads.
I bought this roll from a local CVS .
I have several rolls left over from when I was sick in 2010. 😉
I always wanted a 5 pound max springer rifle with a folding stock, R7 to Slavia 634 power, and accuracy like an R7 or Slavia 634. Call it a Backpacker or something like that.
Sounds like a Jeff Cooper Airscout.
Airscout, I like that!
The Ruger Explorer and the Umarex Embark Youth Air Rifle should fit your bill. Just need to put a folding stock on them.
The specs on those rifles say 510 fps max. I am wanting something with another 100-150 fps to make it a little better hunting. A P1 with a butt stock will get me close to what I want but I am looking for a little more power.
Regarding historic replicas, I want to see CO2 powered replicas of flintlock style rifles and pistols. A recent Airgun Hobbyist issue had a review of multi-shot Flintlock Pirate Pistols for both steel BB and airsoft. I’ve seen domestic distributors selling the airsoft pistol, but not the steel BB pistol. The steel BB version of the Flintlock Pirate Pistol may be for the European market only. I would really like to have a pellet shooting flintlock style rifle even if it is single shot. It would probably be easy enough to make the rifle with a breech loading port controlled by the flash pan cover.
Why can’t we here in the U.S. get really cool flintlock style replica airguns for pellets and steel BBs? After all, flintlocks are “legendary”!
That would be interesting, and yes a loading tap connected to the frizzen would be a novel way to hide the tap lever.
The “ramrod” could be the under lever.
I think you mean the frizzen. 😉
Yes, I changed it after I realized autocorrect shot me in the foot.
I hate autocorrect.
Mich auch! 🙂
I also want to see more historical replicas.
There is a treasure trove of amazing firearms to tap. I am personally fond of WWII small arms.
An M1 Garand? Beretta Model 38/30? Steyr MP34?
History I want to hold in my hands. Something i cam shoot, without the hassle of the firearm. Hearkens to a time of milled/forged parts, before stampings became the norm. Amazing history and amazing time period.
My recommendation to manufacturers is to hire a champion – without someone who actually knows the product/process first hand you are setting the company for troubles.
I worked in an engineering environment my whole career and the benefit I brought to the design meetings was my direct experience in fabrication and assembly.
It is one thing to design a product from the (pure) engineering perspective, it is quite something else the make it durable and functional in a real world environment – practical experience is mandatory!
A thought… “New and Improved” is not always better than “Tried and True”. If you have a proven good product, analyze what it was that made it popular and stick with it.
That’s always a great idea. Yet some comanies just don’t understand it. They think that by proper “management” they can succeed.
Totally agree, it is the “not understanding” that is the real problem – they don’t know what they don’t know (and can’t see that).
You can’t fix a problem, solve a design issue or predict a possible concern if you don’t have knowledgeable people looking at it. You can’t “manage it right” – that is like pushing on a rope, it needs experience to pull it along.
The same is true about designing something – you can’t define a (realistic) set of requirements if you don’t know the “rules”. More money and time is wasted by a poor set of requirements ( causing multiple changes during the design process) than anything else. Seen that so many times.
I always invited our suppliers, fabricators and people from the assembly and test departments (preferably the workers) into the early design meetings because they were the best resource for identifying potential issues before they were committed to. Who is better than the guy who works with the process all day long to know what is practical or not.
Manufacturerability and testability need to be thought out at the beginning of the design process or things can get real awkward/embarrassing LOL!
Sometimes really great engineering ideas are beyond what real world manufacturing can do (at a reasonable price anyway).
Don’t have to deal with that kind of “excitement” anymore, I don’t know if I miss the challenge or if I am glad it’s gone 🙂
“practical experience is mandatory!”
Roger that! I will never forget being called out to “the Model Shop” (a specialized work area where our top machinist built prototype pieces) by Ed (who later became my friend) and asked by him, “How am I supposed to machine this piece you drew with these?” as he pointed to a lathe and vertical miller. After a few minutes of studying the machines and how they worked, I realized my “design” was not able to be built as I drew it…and that was a very humbling experience. Fortunately, Ed asked me to hang around, after working hours, for several nights as he taught me how to use both of those machines. THAT was a huge help for my engineering career! =>
I know what you are saying.
It was my “hands on” direct experience and a long history of inventing and making things that really benefited my career.
Book learning is important but needs some practical experience to really work.
A winning strategy begins by throwing out the philosophy of, “We know better than our consumers” and replacing it with, “We listened to our consumers.”
Amen to that! Also avoid becoming a publicly-traded company with all the complications and nonsense that go with it…including now having to kowtow to “woke,” “politically correct” and “social-justice” obsessed investors.
“avoid becoming a publicly-traded company with all the complications and nonsense that go with it”
Amen to THAT!
From Crosman, a Marauder with aluminum air tube, swappable side lever action, and a more sleek stock, on the lines of a Maximus with adjustable comb. A better, more consistent lockup and metal pivot washers on the higher priced break barrels. Even if it adds $20 or so to the cost.
I would buy a newly made BSA style underlever, provided it meet the criteria discussed by the group.
A co2 Kentucky long rifle could have museum historical site shop marketability. Something a history loving youngster would hang on the bedroom wall, and not really scare anyone like a tactacool styled gun might.
As a side note I notice a dedicated group of young shooters 15-20s are saving and spending hard earned big dollars to buy genuine k98 mausers, and they carefully research what they are buying. I have seen this at military gunshows. It would be worth considering these dedicaded individuals as potential buyers of of WW2 and WW1 styled Air rifles.
A real straightforward one here:
Take your mass market springer (I’m thinking the Ruger Explorer here) and offer a version with a stock adapter that can take AR15 grips and stocks.
You can include a cheap injection-molded stock and grip by default, but 1) the length of pull will be adjustable for different sized shooters, 2) You can offer your own nicer accessories (which are higher margin items anyway, 3) offers an opportunity for cross-brand collaboration (for example, with Magpul or Hera Arms), and 4) lets some firearm owners reuse bits from their parts bin.
In Ruger’s case, they already have a supply chain setup to provide stocks, buffer tubes, and grips in bulk, so that’s just more stuff out of the corporate parts bin!
I put the Vortek spring in the Synergis, it’s the cheapest underlever made, I think. 35 coils, 1/2 ” preload, Now it shoots at 600 fps, not 930 wth the gas ram. The trigger has 2 pieces, plus the spring.Polished it. Tossed the anti beartrap, it cocks and uncocks like an HW now. Thats as close as the resemblance goes though. I need to make the spring guide longer, the coils rub at the end of the cocking stroke, add more preload and see if there is a wee more velocity in it, 750 fps with a heavy pellet? Buttons on the compression chamber, maybe. Overall, it looks too much like a real hunting rifle with cheap plastic stock. An AR style butt stock and pistol grip and no fore end wood? The cocking arm is too spindly, would weld on a nicer, bigger piece.
I may put a military style peep sight on it, but I still havnt tried to see how it groups yet. It lunges now. Is any of this worth it? Well if I only learn a TX 200 is the way to go then so be it.
One of the problems with the manufacturing thing is we teach people in business school about competion. Winning and losing. That’s our system. Some people say that competion is not healthy, and I tend to agree. I think we lose our way when we stop putting the needs of the ‘customers’
Is it worth it? I’m smiling. 😉
Once again, you are right. Easy cocking, very accurate. Now the trigger just breaks. I dont think I will find 750fps with AA 177heavys and more preload, maybe 650. Definately buttons. Way more funs now.
On the subject of corporate design decisions, a questioned dawned on me. In an age where low-priced, high power PCPs are available, why are manufacturers still pursuing the velocity quest for springers? It’s great that one can still purchase a magnum springer, but why is it that those are still the focus for that powerplant?
Manufacturers should be trying to make the “poor man’s HW30s.” Weihrauch should make an HW20SW (walnut stock), HW20B (beech stock) and HW20P (polymer), both with a length-of-pull of 13.5 inches and Rekord trigger. Available in .177 only, the HW20 should have an honest muzzle velocity of 475 fps. I’d pre-order one HW20W and HW20P as long as they were of the same quality as the HW30S, which means they would cost almost as much as the HW30S.
B.B., how would you like to shoot a Weihrauch HW20? RidgeRunner, would an HW20B be welcomed into your home for wayward air guns?
I think the issue is, the general public still stays away from PCPs. Except for AirForce most other companies sell them in the low thousands — even the high hundreds. The springers sell in the tens of thousands.
And yes, I would welcome an HW 20S.
I wonder if the Bronco might have just been ahead of its time.
It wasn’t ahead of time. Its time is still now. But today it would cost around $200. Pyramyd Air feels that is too high.
I would pay $200 for a Bronco in a heartbeat. I would probably order 10.
I consider my Bronco, one of the first batch, to be one of a handful of air guns I would be very unlikely ever to sell.
I’m surprised. Perhaps the necessary expense of a compressor is a deal-breaker for many.
People don’t know what they don’t know about PCPs and that frightens them. I have seen a remarkable surge since the Discovery kicked off in 2007, but now we need the next surge.
I think a special package of a bottom dollar PCP and compressor for $499 would do well, but retail is not an area of marketing I feel I know much about.
I would encourage Daisy to make an “anniversary” (pick a date!) Adult Model 25 that would be an upscale (power, size and quality) replica of its classic Model 25; one that actually shoots straight and hard. For Adults ONLY.
I conceptualize a larger swept area air chamber to produce between 600 and 700 fps with LEAD BBs, NOT STEEL. I envision, concurrently, a rifled steel barrel incorporating the traditional spring magazine of the original 25. Perhaps a splined female receptacle for the male barrel, sealed with an O Ring/breech seal. The assembly locked in place by a twist lock at the muzzle end – UNLESS uniformity can be maintained by the traditional screw in system so the POI is the same each time, every time.
I would posit a real and solid and aligned front sight post or globe with inserts and a real micrometer peep in the rear. Adult length of pull and sculpted stock (not a sawn piece of 1×6).
Engineering would have to work out the math for the straight slide cocking relationships to bring about an adult level of effort but not an Hulk-needed one. That is probably the bug-bear in the idea; but the 25 used clever linkages to gain leverage over the spring – to why not???
A decent trigger would be necessary to complete the piece. I’ve bought my last Chinese-made pieces with their Superman-required trigger pulls – are you listening Benjamin and Umarex?
The trigger wouldn’t have to be RWS Model 36 ball bearing smooth, but please make it decent! Aligned with this would be an absence of the take-down feature of the original 25. This piece would have no place for a wiggle and waggle if it is going to shoot well.
I bought a Model 25 and expected more than I paid for, but the concept of a powerful, 50 shot BB repeater WITH ACCURACY is something I would pay for (hence the need for rifling and LEAD shot). For eradication of starlings and small vermin, what would be better than an accurate 50 shot repeater that could send ’em down range as fast as one could slide the cocking handle and re-acquire the sight picture?
I also understand that the costs would rise significantly; I’m not talking el cheapo nor could such a piece be a Wally*World special on the bottom rack. Maybe it would be a Deutsche-Daisy given what it would take to build? It also might be limited to Pyramyd Air, Airgun Depot, Airguns of Arizona and those kinds of dealers – retail houses that would be more responsible about the nature of the piece than a person from the yard good department of a big box establishment.
I might be alone on this, but I can dream. A company that once made iron windmills can probably do just about anything….
Now, that could be done! Good one!
I am blessed by the positive response of one Buckeye who has a famous nom-d’-ballistics. This “blind pig may have found an acorn!” meaning me, of course?
The serious concern I have about my proposal is adults who don’t adult much and would present such a piece to a child (sans supervision) thinking “It’s ONLY a BB gun.” In this case it wouldn’t be.
While I am an avid shooter, I also have concerns about profligate arms in our society and a LOT of wackos who own them. We all know of folks who probably shouldn’t be allowed to use a spoon without supervision! This piece would need, I suspect, some careful roll out and consideration by Daisy as an ADULT ARM in its marketing.
Given the the higher demands of construction and manufacture, price, here, could be a real friend; price it out of Wally*World but well within the bargain range of the legitimate mail-order air gun houses and it might just pay for its development and find a following among folks who don’t usually find Daisy in their ballistic vocabulary.
It might join the single-shot competition air rifle that you recently wrote about as more than a “kids’ BB gun,” but as a serious air arm. Who knows, could it sire a whole line of offspring? Maybe even a new variant in competition shooting? More seasoned minds than mine would need to consider such a possibility.
Doing some reading, I found out that Daisy is owned by BRS that also owns Gamo. To do the Adult 25 won’t necessarily need a German moniker, an El Gamo work might well suffice! Maybe there is a way in-house, so to speak!
One of the first BB guns I ever shot was a friend’s Daisy model 25. It was fun to shoot, but the gun you just described would be really cool to own; I’d buy one! =>
The first gun I was ever threatened with was a 25 when I was a wee lad. A bunch of neighborhood bad asses who had to be at least in the first four grades of elementary school had one and welcomed themselves to the swing set with it. Nevertheless, I have wanted one (and, no, I’m not going to set out looking for those clowns who are likely in nursing homes or the bone yard by now!) because they represented what every kid wanted after the Red Ryder thing was over.
I also think it is a really workable light arm with no pretensions to Olympic 10 M competition but could be a really workable piece. The 50 round spring-loaded magazine with the pump cocking is unique and handy for informal shooting or discouraging vermin from one’s garden and bird feeders without a long carry distance.
Somehow, the Model 25 just looks “right,” it just needs to be made as a serious piece; an adult version of heavier construction, consistency and power. Necessarily, a disclaimer would have to be affixed to each new piece to warn the purchaser NOT to use steel BBs but lead shot/BBs. Of course, rubes would chamber steel and ruin the rifling, but that would be on them after ignoring a trigger guard tag, a sticker on the barrel end “sealing” barrel/magazine into the shroud “barrel,” and a warning on the box.
I’d buy one, maybe a couple of them. It would be great fun to rapid fire lead safe shot at my Champion Bullet/Pellet trap in my 10 M basement range over the winter (when the bicycles are forlornly hanging on the racks in the garage). It would be a contrast to the annual average of 5640 slow aimed shots with the rest of my air arms in the locker that I shoot over the winter months.
If it were a .22, would that solve the risk of using steel BBs and help with the starlings?
I would see your cogent idea as a second generation or expansion of the original concept. As I commented, if the idea of the BB caliber ADULT Model 25 sold well, it could spawn a whole family of them.
Likely, the tube magazine would have to be ditched and a rotating revolver mag used, with re-engineering the breech somehow, to accommodate .22 – which are usually pellets not round balls.
Other iterations could be scope rails and fancy stock options that would include the slide handle. Maybe even an uber expensive stainless edition?
Your comment shows the possibilities of spawning a “family” of pieces from the initial offering that would be based on a familiar icon.
Good idea, and it could be a second generation hit? I would consider adding such a piece to the arms locker – well not really ’cause I’d have to fire up the wood working tools and BUILD a bigger one!
For the Daisy folks, it would be a unique entry point into more upscale and adult pieces, if they would include that marking/manufacturing concept into their business model. Or…farm it out under license to fellow firms?
A .177 proposal for Hatsan Striker and Edge.
Give them similar power as HW50 – Max velocity ~850 fps.
Replace their current sights with the same sights on HW50.
Get rid of the scope.
Upgrade to Woodfield Welsh Willy Hatsan Striker trigger.
You’ll end up with an accurate classic less than half price of HW50.
You can lead the horse to water but you can’t make it drink!
But who am I to talk! I drive the Make that General Motors did everything they could to KILL OFF with management that wasn’t Born From Jets!
I have driven SAABs since the early 1970’s.
My two current SAABs are over two decades old a 9-3 Viggen convertible and a 9-5 AERO that are as close to perfect condition streetable automobiles can be.
A Masters in Business Administration doesn’t clue them in to understand why the ignition key is on the STICK shift hump next to the Handbrake between the bucket seats or what that third pedal on the left does!
Many years ago, I worked as part-time help at a SAAB plant in Connecticut. As a temp, I did not qualify; but everyone who worked there full time was allowed to pick out and drive a SAAB as their daily car (for as long as they worked there); the only stipulation was that you had to drop it off once a year so they could go over it with a fine-toothed comb to see how the car was wearing in (and they gave you another SAAB in the meantime till you got “yours” back). I thought that was way cool. =>
Was that before the 900s arrived in New Haven?
My dad bought our first SAAB in 1960 IIRC. I became a buff of the two stroker import because my dad could get us to skiing regardless of the weather! I remember taking my kids to White Grass in Davis WV and seeing flashing lights across the road and barricades and a Sheriff’s Deputy waving his arms wildly so we stopped and I asked him why the road ahead was closed; he looked at me like I had just arrived from Mars! He said” Sir! the road behind you is impassable and closed.”. I said to him could he please move the barricade so we could get off the impassable road we were just on. He muttered something but did as I asked…it wasn’t that bad for our SAAB 900APG with REAL snows on all four wheels.
I always liked this story from SAAB’s early history: “Four-stroke engines had been tested before, between 1962 and 1964 Kjell Knutsson and Ingvar Andersson under Rolf Mellde tested three different engines: a 45 PS Lloyd Arabella of 897 cc; a 33 hp BMC A-Series 848-cc engine and a Lancia Appia engine of 1089cc and 48 hp. However Rolf Mellde’s view that Saab needed to switch to a four-stroke engine was stopped higher up by CEO Tryggve Holm. Mellde then went behind the back of Holm and made contact with Marc Wallenberg, son of Marcus Wallenberg, Saab’s major stockholder. The coup succeeded and testing could begin. The tested engines were Volvo B18, Ford V4, Triumph 1300, Lancia V4 engine, Opel, Volkswagen and Hillman Imp.”
Great way to get what the engineers thought was needed!
I’m hopping we get to drive our cuurent SAABs until they outlaw petroleum powered vehicles and make us all ride around in self driving SPAM cans!
I think I was 17, so that would have been in 1976.
Awesome history lesson, and I love that barricade story!
“I’m hopping we get to drive our current SAABs until they outlaw petroleum powered vehicles and make us all ride around in self driving SPAM cans!”
I hope so, too! =>
Interesting learning about the younger crowd getting into the WWII weaponry. That is a good thing because we need the young ones to start putting their dogs into the gun control/2nd Amendment fight; if they want to have the freedom to build their collections, that is.
Would love to see PCP versions of the Thompson, M3, Sten, MP-40, StG-44, PPSh-41 and others in .177 and/or .22 pellet calibers. The question is whether there are enough of us military weapons history buffs out there to make that feasible. It may be – German Sports Guns’ MP-40 9mm semiauto has sold well, to my knowledge. FM has definitely enjoyed shooting his, lack of folding buttstock notwithstanding. But, what does FM know? “Nozink!,” sez Feldwebel Schultz.
I tried to put this under your comment about the Diana Chaser barrel.
Based on your heads up that the barrel is easily replaced I ordered the Diana Chaser from PA. After getting teased with a couple of fliers with JSB Express 7.87 gr and again with JSB 8.44 gr I tried JSB RS 7.33 gr. First 10 shot group at 25 yards measured .49 inches using a scope. All since have been under 1 inch.
Looks like I got a good one and won’t be needing a Walther replacement barrel.