Weihrauch HW 97K rifle.
This report covers:
- The test
- Sight-in
- Group 1-Qiang Yuan dome group
- Group 2-JTS Dead Center domes
- Group 3-Air Arms 8.44-grain domes
- Discussion
Today we shoot the HW 97K from 25 yards for the first true accuracy test.
The test
The rifle was fired from a sandbag rest at 25 yards with the rifle resting directly on the bag. Today’s groups are 10 shots each and I used the same pellets that I did at ten meters.
Shootski’s photo
Reader shootski asked to see a top-down photo of the loading area, so I took one for him.
The 97K breech with the sliding compression chamber retracted.
Sight-in
To sight in the rifle for 25 yards I had to remove the shim under the rear of the scope. This 97K seems to need no shim at any distance. After doing that I also had to reposition the scope for proper eye relief. So, it took me 13 shots to sight in at 25 yards.
Group 1-Qiang Yuan dome group
Once the rifle was sighted in, ten Qiang Yuan dome pellets grouped in 0.714-inches at 25 yards. It’s okay, but not as tight as I expected.
Ten Qiang Yuan domes went into 0.714-inches at 25 yards.
Group 2-JTS Dead Center domes
Next up were 10.4-grain JTS Dead Center domes. Ten went into 0.478-inches at 25 yards. That’s closer to what I expected from this rifle.
The 97K put ten JTS Dead Center domes into this 0.478-inch group at 25 yards.
Group 3-Air Arms 8.44-grain domes
The last pellet I tested was the 8.44-grain Air Arms dome. Ten of them made a 0.624-inch group at 25 yards. Once again, this is a larger group than I expected.
The HW 97K put 10 Air Arms 8.44-grain domes into 0.624-inches between centers at 25 yards.
Discussion
There are a couple things I want to focus on for the next time. First, I should shoot a shot before grouping because the first shot always went to a different place than the main group.
Second, I need to lighten the trigger pull. This Rekord is still set way too heavy
Third, It seems this rifle likes heavier pellets best, so I need to select a new batch of them to test.
I may sound critical of the groups in today’s test, but the 97K is an expensive rifle. I expect it to perform like a TX200 Mark III. I still need to give it a chance by learning its quirks and by setting things up for it to shoot, so we shall see.
“…the 97K is an expensive rifle. I expect it to perform like a TX200 Mark III.”
BB,
I concur with that being a reasonable expectation.
Shooting from a rest at 50 yards, this rifle should be able to consistently hit the end of a 12-guage hull (7/8″)…
…with the pellets that it likes. For my rifle, that was the 7.9-grain Crosman Premiers.
I’m sure this gal will dance…once you find the pellets she prefers. 🙂
Blessings to you,
dave
B.B.,
Thank you for for taking the time to provide the photograph of the loading area. So it raise another question: how is the Transfer Port to barrel accomplished? Is their a seal or just a super tight fit?
I was hoping for better groups as well. I guess you need to do more shooting :^) It will be interesting if heavier pellets prove more accurate or perhaps the artillery hold might prove more accurate at 25 yards.
So far i will just stick with my gas spring SIGs and PCPs.
Thank you again!
shootski
shootski,
The transfer port looks like a super tight fit to me. I wondered the same thing so I looked.
BB
BB,
Your photo seems to show an O-ring at the front of the chamber around the barrel protrusion. Is this so?
RR,
No, that’s a reflection.
BB
I find this series devoted to the HW97K particularly interesting as back in March, when the 97K with a walnut stock was announced, I immediately ordered one in .22 cal. When it finally arrived in May , I installed a Hawke Airmax 4 – 16 x 50 scope on it and went about siting it in for 25 yds. My best, and most stable groupings have been 0.05 in. using JSB 15.89 gr. Diablo pellets. My groupings are always using 10 pellet shots. I’ve got a few questions regarding accuracy that I hope may be addressed as this review grows. 1) as the afternoon temperatures in May increased from highs in the upper 70s to lower 80s, to the current late July temps hovering at the 100 degree mark, I clearly find that my poi has changed. How does temperature (not humidity) affect the poi? 2) I’ve clearly noticed that as the ambient temperatures rise in the afternoons, my accuracy clearly worsens after a couple hours of shooting. This fatigue factor doesn’t seem to be so noticeable at temperatures in the ’70s. As I remember to rehydrate, my “shakey old man” syndrome seems to go away. How does hydration affect my shooting? What should I be drinking? OK, the good stuff is out, so no whiskey on the rocks, but what should I take out to the range with me? I generally freeze a couple of water bottles and perhaps some unsweetened iced tea. . . is this all I should have in order to maintain my best shooting skills? Oh, OK, my wife insists that I take some fruit with me too. I know she loves me, but why not a Snickers Bar too? One last question for today, 3) I think that I know the answer to this one, but why can my now 12 yr old grandson so badly outshoot me at the 100 yard level, when I still outshoot him at 25 to 50 yds)? These are all the questions for today, but I will have more for sure. Orv.
Orv,
Just a thought on the POI change with the temperature change. Air density decreases as the temp increases. That could promote a POI change.
BB
Thank you for this, but how do I respond? If I’m shooting both my TX200 and my HW97K, one after the other, perhaps changing pellets, or perhaps not . . . at what point will the temperature be the deciding factor between gun, pellet, and temperature? How do I calculate these factors into accuracy? Perhaps I should just go out to the shade of the range and somnambulate. This I can do well. Orv.
You dilute your whiskey with ice?! Just put the bottle in the freezer and chill it that way. This is the way I do my rum and Southern Comfort. It will not freeze and you do not dilute it with the melting ice.
RidgeRunner,
I have used COLD Granite cubes stored in the freezer on occasion. But great Bourbon at room temperature taken neat (with a small splash of water to open it up) is my go to drink.
shootski
I’ll keep mine closed, thank you.
Orv,
Just so you know, when you are tired of that HW97K, I would be quite happy to provide it with a place to live here at RRHFWA.
Hoppalong Doc,
0.05″ ten shot groups and you are asking for advice!
Tom is correct that air density gets thinner with increasing temperature. But Sun on your scope or not allowing the rifle and scope temperature to stabilize to ambient could cause significant POI shift as well. You are shooting in the shade i hope. Mirage in your scope could be an issue if there is even a slight breeze or vertical thermal air movement.
“As I remember to rehydrate, my “shakey old man” syndrome seems to go away. How does hydration affect my shooting? What should I be drinking?”
Rehydrate? You need to be hydrated all the time! It takes two weeks of rehydration before the body stabilizes (you will play potty rollercoaster until then)
and most importantly you lose a minimum of 2% athletic performance when not hydrated. Cool water is best and no more than a cup of water at a time. IF you are really behind on your hydration use something like: https://www.pedialyte.com Perfect after a bout of diarrhea to replace the electrolytes lost as well.
https://www.massgeneralbrigham.org/en/about/newsroom/articles/tips-for-staying-hydrated
Visual Acuity.
hth,
shootski
0.05″ 10-shot groups? Isn’t that difficult for PCPs (and a lot of other guns)? I’m happy with 3/4″ groups and seem to struggle with most guns to achieve that. I guess this gun is much more capable than I would ever have dreamed and would imagine the TX200 should be able to keep pace with it. Cheers.
Oh No . . . I flunked math again! Please accept my apologies. Converting inches to metric has never been my strong suit, and here I must fall on my sword (yes, I actuality have one). I shouldn’t brag at all, but my best 10 shot groups from center to center at 25 yards are .50 or one half inch. Although I can shoot this group with either my TX200 or my HW97K, I’m finding that my HW97K actually shoots a bit better at this point. Orv.
Hoppalong Doc,
Divide the top number (numerator) by the bottom
number (denominator) to find the value in inches as a decimal.
Or just use the Link below.
https://www.inchcalculator.com/inch-fraction-calculator/
Easy-Peasy Orv
shootski
Thanks for correcting that although I was secretly hoping the 0.05″ was valid anyway 🙂 My son was able to achieve 1/2″ groups @ 25 yds as well from the Diana 54, TX200, and HW97K so they seem to all be quite capable but the TX200, in our rather limited experience with it, is more pellet picky and he only was able to achieve 1/2″ groups from H&N FTT pellets out of Crosman Premier Domed Ultra Magnums, RWS Superdomes, Norma S-Target Matches, and I think the other was Falcon pellets. The others were 1″ – 1.6″ 10-shot groupers at 25 yds. We stop trying different pellets once we hit 3/4″ groups or less so I don’t doubt a higher level of precision may be able to be obtained with other pellets. It’s a lot of fun learning and experimenting with the different guns. I *really* am hoping we can somehow get the Crosman 362 guns consistently shooting 3/4″ groups or less but we have yet to be able to achieve that. I like the anniversary edition and it’s a shame it cannot compete with with the Dragonfly MK2 or even the Daisy 880 in our experience so far. We’re not done yet though but are running out of easy options (different pellets) to achieve this.
I committed to memory there are 25.4 mm in an inch so getting a decimal inch equivalent is just a matter of taking the metric value in mm and dividing it by 25.4.
And an imperial pound is 2.2 kilograms. Learning your equation and this one have saved me a lot of time and effort over the years. Kilometers are not so simple: 1.609344 kilometers equal one mile.
Now if I can just suss out that pesky Celsius scale!
Michael
I do admire the metric system and its simplicity over the British system or whatever it’s referred to (SAE, standard, imperial, etc.?) Even the naming convention has to be complicated – lol.
Numbers should be made to help us solve things and not complicate them with fractions and extraneous conversions. Things are hard enough as-is without the play-on-numbers.
Orv,
At 100 yards his 12 yr old eyes have a significant advantage over yours. But at shorter distances such as 25 and 50 yards, your eyes are still good enough for you to best him.
Michael
Michael, good call on that one. 😉
Dave,
Thanks.
And by the by your gift of that scope is still helping my ailing eyes out. I still have it on a vintage Diana springer of mine by my patio door and used it to hit a small silhouette a few times this morning. Thanks so much yet again!
Michael
“…that scope is still helping…”
Michael, that’s really cool; you are most welcome. 🙂
BB,
Those three pellets are most definitely not the pellets this particular HW97K likes. I am also certain you need to do a little more with that trigger. I am really looking forward to this blog on this air rifle as this is supposed to be one of the primo poppers. According to other shooters, this gal should dance much better than this.
Quick and dirty little update on the Gamo Bone Collector. To help break it in I sat on the steps of my back porch and shredded a feral soda can at twenty-three paces with it Saturday. I shot two magazines full of H&N Excite Hammers. I managed to hit the can most of the time. I had not mentioned this in my blogs, but the gas spring in this gives it a fair bit of recoil.
RidgeRunner,
I know Gamos (Gamoes?) get a bad rap here for being geared towards velocity, but I have one I picked up reeaaallly cheap in a multi-airgun trade that is hard to cock and ornery to shoot, but if I hold it gently, it is actually pretty accurate, mostly.
Michael
Michael,
I have a considerable amount of personal experience with having owned a couple of Gamos. My first airgun was a Gamo CFX. After I rebuilt the trigger, it was a very accurate air rifle. It was also VERY hold sensitive.
At the moment I have a Gamo Swarm Bone Collector. The bad rap that Gamo airguns have is because there are a lot of better airguns out there. They deserve the bad reputation they have. Their gimmicks such as the magazine for sproingers work better than the air rifles themselves and they are not really that great.
It is my understanding that some of the Gamo PCPs are pretty decent, but their sproingers are no better than those you will find at the bottom of the barrel. What is really puzzling to me is Gamo should have learned something over the years but does not seem to want to apply what they have learned. Maybe it has to do with the cost? Who knows their reasoning?
RidgeRunner,
While my Gamo air rifle is accurate (if I apply a disciplined artillery hold), it is unpleasant to shoot. I do not consider it to be a quality air rifle.
I think Gamo has long chosen to make inferior air rifles (the CO2 pistols are much better, in my experience) because they sell well regardless, and they have maximized their margin. Production cost savings, high margins, and healthy sales is ideal, and they seem to have that. If their bottom line were hurt by their poor quality, they might improve their standards, but the consumers have rewarded, not penalized them.
Michael
Michael,
It is the “ignorant masses” which reward them. Many who know stay away from them in droves.
I recall years ago a powder burner fellow telling me that Gamo made the best air rifles. Hopefully, I disillusioned him.
It is the same with TCFKAC. Their sproingers are horrible also. To be quite honest, they have not won me over in the PCP department either. I have had superb shooting sproingers and PCPs over the years. Neither Gamo nor TCFKAC number among those. The only Gamo I have had that was somewhat accurate was the CFX and it was VERY pellet picky and VERY hold sensitive.
Right now I am playing with a Gamo Swarm Bone Collector. With a proper “artillery hold” it is not too bad, but I have better. If I was to replace the gas piston with a spring and reduce the power and improve the trigger it might shoot better, but is it worth it?
RR,
Agreed regarding the ignorant masses as enablers of mediocrity.
TCFKAC?
Michael
The Company Formerly Known As Crosman.
They call it Crosman these days, but it has changed hands a few times since that was its original name.
OK, thanks.
Paris Olympic Update
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdG-iTilWU
🙂
🙂 “nice form!”
BB
“There are a couple things I want to focus on for the next time. First, I should shoot a shot before grouping because the first shot always went to a different place than the main group.”
Amen!
Deck
How does the gun know it is the first shot? ;o)
Would be great if the first shot would always be the same POI as the rest.
For me, often the 10th shot is the group-spoiler, but I think that’s me watching the group after each shot and getting excited, not the gun.
Roamin Greco,
They can count!
I think (given my very limited experience) Spring Piston metal or gas seem to me to need the piston to move at least once distributing the compression cylinder lubrication before they settle and slide normally.
I normally shoot blanks with my Single and Multi Stroke pumpers as well as my PCPs.
You can’t do blanks with any spring piston powerplant that i know of without risking doing some damage.
On the pumpers i think “Cold” Bore Shot POI variation is less evident and even less so in PCPs.
I think pressure difference is apparent in pumpers if you don’t shoot a few blanks initially. In unregulated PCPs i think it is the valve that needs to have the lubrication spread around in airguns with regulators it would be interesting for a study on “Cold Bore” shot regulator/plenum pressure comparison testing.
But who really knows; it could be some other thing causing the POI variance as well.
Like scope shift, barrel shift due to storage orientation, or the most likely shooter variabilities that need to settle out.
shootski
Roamin
See also Shootski’s comments.
When a change is made from one type pellet to another the first shot with any different pellet type has about a 50% chance of being a flier separating itself from shots #2 through #10. My theory is the previous pellet type made its own way down the bore. You know this but pellet size, shape, weight, harmonics, velocity, ballistics, etc all can alter how a pellet travels down the bore. Usually a shot or two with a different pellet type before scoring with it will season the bore for the new pellet and allow much tighter groups. Again, I have this happen about half the time. I use to think this was more apt to happen with less accurate airguns but I’m not so sure now.
Deck
An Aircraft Avionics Technician was asked, what’s inside those black boxes to make everything work?
His reply. “It’s all FM”. The M stands for Magic. “Nobody knows, we just replace them”. F- Fantastic?
Could it be that magic comes and goes when it comes to tight groups? I know when shooting pool, I’m either right on or off that day.
Just received the “Limited Edition” weathered long-barreled John Wane Colt SAA. Thought it looked familiar.
Sure enough, the same as the Fort Smith Bicentennial Commemorative. Just a slight change in the grips and medallions, for $50.00 more. But it does come with a Case Gard double pistol case instead of a box.
Sad thing is they went right back to putting all that white print ‘Sky is falling warning’ info in plain sight instead of under the barrel like on the Fort Smith.
I believe I would be falling into the same situation If I purchased this 97 already owning a TX200 MkIII.
But wait, It’s a ‘K’. let me think about this.
When I was in the US Navy electronics school, the chief who was instructing us was asked how tubes and transistors worked. His reply was “PFM”.
Boy do I feel dumb.
I own three underlevers, a Dianna K98 Mauser, Springfield M1A and the Air Arms TX200 MkIII and only today figured out how air gets into the barrel. A “Sliding Compression Chamber”.
I knew this thing slid open to insert a pallet and it was in the area of compression and possibly dangerous to your fingers without a ratchet locking action, but I never thought it was the actual compression chamber for the piston. Some sort of cover to protect fingers from the piston?
Never wondered how all the compressed air would be contained without any obvious sealing in there.
Just checked two rifles out and it all became clear. You never really notice any seals during cocking unless you look for them, and yes, it is a long tube, not a short retractable cover.
Well I never had to disassemble one so I don’t feel too bad, so no head slap. Don’t know how I ever missed it. Perhaps a cylinder within a cylinder did not make sense at first but how else would it work? Just never put 2&2 together.
Must have miss that class here. Good thing I never had to take a test.
From PA’s YT channel,
https://youtu.be/lZRfF6uMSz8?feature=shared
Fish,
I hate to tell you, but that video is all wrong. The only mention about the sliding compression cylinder is that it is separate from the barrel and that’s pretty much the same for a regular break barrel as well.
It says pulling on the lever compresses the spring piston. It does not. it moves the sliding compression chamber that ‘contains’ the spring piston rearward enough for the piston to engage the sear ‘and’ the sliding compression chamber to engage its latch on the side of the rifle.
Releasing the compression cylinder latch allows the lever to be pulled forward and return the compression cylinder forward to engage the breach seal while operating the upper forearm cover to close through the same gear system that it used to open it for access to the breach. Unique to the M1A I believe.
The spring piston remains compressed until the trigger is pulled to release it.
The rest about the trigger action is how most springers work to some extent.
It’s basically a sliding compression chamber floating inside what would normally be a break barrel compression chamber if it were not opened to allow access to the barrel breach. because the breach is not exposed like a break barrel to insert the pellet.
If that sliding compression cylinder did not have a retaining latch an accidental trigger pull would send the piston, compression chamber, and under lever slamming home. and hungry for flesh.
I get it all now. Thanks for the info anyway.
Bob M,
I desire your Diana K98 Mauser.
RR,
And that’s another thing we have in common. I also desire it and the K98 PCP version as well, but who knows one day perhaps I will unload.
Bob M,
I have not desire to own the PCP version. It is nothing more than a Snowpeak dressed up to look like a German. The Diana K98 Mauser sproinger you have is a German.
BB, all of my HW97K’s (I have four of them in .177cal) like the H&N FTT 8.64gr pellets in sizes from 4.51mm to 4.53mm. I have some new Barracuda 8’s that are 8.44gr to try soon.
Cloud 9,
I remember shooting one of them. Good memories!
BB
Perhaps you could try some for this test?
Cloud 9,
We might be able to work something out.
BB
Cloud 9,
Agreed, It’s only okay with crosman and JSB pellets but mine really loves H&N pellets; lead FTTs and both lead and tin Barracuda’s. I haven’t tried shooting the HK97K after dining on my wife’s jaeger schnitzel, but It probably works even better after a hearty German meal!