Today reader RidgeRunner, begins telling us about his Webley Tomahawk breakbarrel air rifle. If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me at blogger@pyramydair.com.
Take it away, RidgeRunner
RidgeRunner’s Webley/Hatsan Tomahawk: Part One
by RidgeRunner
Webley Tomahawk.
This report covers:
- A history, sort of
- Mine
- What was wrong with it
- So, what was right?
- What’s next
A history, sort of
Once upon a time in a far off land, there was an airgun manufacturer that went by the name of Webley and Scott. Being one of the ignorant masses, I do not know exactly what happened, but one day that company came to an end.
All was not lost though because Turkish manufacturer Hatsan started making airguns for Webley and Scott. One of those airguns they made was an air rifle called the Tomahawk. Do not quote me on this, but I think it was based on the Hatsan 95.
Hatsan only made the Tomahawk for a couple of years and then it went away forever. That’s not hard to believe because Pyramyd AIR was selling them for over $400. There were also a lot of returns.
Mine
After a bit, I started to hear of some great prices on these air rifles. It was a closeout, a get-rid-of-them sale at the airgun dealer located in the southwest United States. I decided to get one. At the price it was being offered though, there were no returns. I figured no matter how bad it was, I would be a winner.
When it arrived, I opened up the box and very quickly discovered why there had been so many returns. The machining was terrible and there obviously was no quality control at all. Now I understood why there was a no return policy. I would have returned it if I could have.
What was wrong with it
The very first thing I noticed was a line of burrs along the top edge of the barrel block. That was not too much of a problem as a fine file took care of those things in very short order.
The only other problem I could find at this point was the price. At the time a top shelf break barrel was going for a little less than $300. For what Webley and Scott was asking for this air rifle, you could buy a real nice Weihrauch and have quite a bit of change left. At the time a Hatsan breakbarrel was under $200.
So what was right?
For one thing this air particular rifle has a very nice walnut stock. This is a heavy, solid-feeling sproinger. The bluing on the steel is deep and beautiful. This sproinger has a very nice Quattro trigger. It may not be as nice as an Air Arms or Rekord trigger, but it is nothing to sneeze at.
This sproinger also has a built in scope stop that is adjustable for four positions.
How is that for a scope stop?
Speaking of scope stops, you may recall in my last blurb about the Gamo I spoke of the scope creeping on me. Well, apparently I did not have the scope ring stop pin screwed out enough. Pooky.
This is not on my Tomahawk. It’s a gouge on my Gamo rifle because I didn’t screw the scope stop pin out far enough. Oh man, what a mess!
With the built-in scope stop that’s on the Tomahawk, that is not an issue.
What’s next?
Well, I guess this sproinger is going to get a full workup. You know — pellet velocities, power calculations, trigger definition, ten-yard and 25-yard accuracy with different holds, yada yada yada.
From what I have seen of this sproinger so far, I can well understand why just about everyone sent this overpriced air rifle back. Yes, it has a nice stock, yes the trigger is nice and yes the finish of the metal is deep and rich. With all that, is it still worth as much as Webley charged for one of these? Not hardly.
This sproinger has been at RRHFWA for a long time, waiting its turn very patiently. Now it is time for this “old gal” to come out of the closet and try to dance with the rest of them.
“Now it is time for this ‘old gal’ to come out of the closet and try to dance with the rest of them.”
Thanks, RidgeRunner; this looks like it has the makings of an interesting series. 😉
Dave,
I certainly do hope so. It would indeed be nice to have a nice, modern sproinger around here that shoots worth a diddlely. She is certainly dressed nice, but the outfit does not make a dancer.
I agree with the problem of dancing skills.
I suspect that the design emphasis is on the PCP world – something that used to be the “dark side” but now seems to be the point of the air gun world. I’m an old grumpy fart, in my air artillery personality, and prefer the stuff I grew up with as an adult air gun enthusiast. It kinda springs up in one over time….
Every RWS/Diana I own is a shooter and has been since it came out of the box, got a thorough scrubbing and waxing and lubing. My favorite is my oldest, the M-36, but it has severe competition from the walnut stocked M-340 Luxus in .22. The M-34 Panther in .22 shoots very well, but has a copycat in a Crosman piece that tries hard to keep up but just can’t goose step fast enough.
The piece that is the most vicious to shoot is the .177 M-350 Pro Compact that has broken a LTG Leapers Scope in its time by the violence of the double-recoil. It is very accurate, like its siblings, but just the meanest “kid” in the family. Since it has a coke bottle like barrel weight with no front sight, it remains a threat to glass optics and can’t be readily made into a peep sighted piece like the Dianas tend to become through association in the arms locker by mutual concerted action to gain mind control over their owner, me! (Note, I do have an ex-son-in-law who is a journeyman tool and die maker who could machine a RWS globe sight attachment point on that boat anchor if I asked nicely but won’t.)
From what I can gather through scant information, Diana is now pretty much an assembly operation in Germany, and it outsources its components, hopefully with typical German quality control, and puts them together for sale. That’s probably an industry trend now? I wish that Diana would think through a breakthrough in springers (even if gaseous now) that would remind the airgun world that compressors and high pressure bottles aren’t really and absolutely necessary for most shooting, especially at the realistic shorter ranges of air guns.
My latest purchase was a cheap Norica in .25 caliber, a Dragon, to shoot up tins of H&N pellets that I bought thinking that the Hatsan 135 in .25 would be a good match but wasn’t. Turns out that the Turk’s .25 bore is a bit “expansive,” and the precise H&N pellets bounced down the bore resulting in the typical accuracy of shot gun projectiles. The H&N Exact King III will shoot in the Hatsan, but the rest not at all.
The Norica seems to be an accuracy candidate, but lacks the oomph of its Hatsan estranged cousin. This winter’s shooting season will bare the bones of the Norica in terms of accuracy potential with pellets that I suspect are a bit heavy for it to shine but which fit its Spanish bore. The Spaniards must have rulers that actually measure the .25 caliber precisely unlike the folks in Ismir?
So….Yes, RidgeRunner, we’re on the same page. It would be nice to have a new springer that has a reasonable cost that would excite me enough to pull the table saw back to the middle of the garage, get some premium lumber in the back of the pickup, and build a new and bigger gun cabinet to house to house yet another homeless springer in the company of the air arms family here…
LFranke,
I must apologize for taking so long to respond to your posting as I wanted to properly digest what you were saying here and make sure that I understood it. You certainly had a lot to say and I wanted to make sure I responded to you, at least in my mind, properly.
For many years now, I have been of the opinion that no matter how much power/velocity an airgun or powder burner has, if you cannot hit what you are shooting at, what good is it? This is pure speculation on my part, but I do suspect the reason the UK airgun shooters limited themselves to under 12 FPE is that above that power range a sproinger seems to lose much of its accuracy.
Many of the old sproingers were made of steel and walnut and were quite hefty. With the use of beech, which is cheaper and lighter than walnut, the price and the weight started down. With the advent of polymers, the price and weight has been further reduced.
Gas springs are typically made of mostly aluminum and often are lighter and less prone to some of the vibration and torques associated with steel springs. They also compress the air faster, thus increasing the power/velocity which so many seem to crave. What many do not grasp is that the scope punishing recoil is usually increased with more powerful metal and gas springs.
The lighter weight and higher power/velocities tend to cause more difficulty with a sproinger’s accuracy, although there are some very accurate modern sproingers available. They are not cheap though. The truth is, they were never cheap. It is just that with today’s generations the older “things” are tossed away to get the “latest and greatest” which surely must be better. Yeah, right.
As for the present focus on the world of PCPs, you very likely are on to something there. The PCP can give the power/velocity so many crave with the accuracy that is needed. I personally do think that even in this realm, there is too much focus on cheaper materials and craftsmanship (profit).
Who am I? I am just an old, fat, bald-headed geezer who likes to dance with the “old gals”.
RR: Gee we must form a fraternity of like-minded airgunners! Old, fat, balding or bald geezers who have an affection for older forms of musketry? Sans the black powder, wads and balls (strictly the lead kind)!
I think you are absolutely correct about the gas ram. I have two pieces with them and they dramatically reduce the “cheek slap” that is inherent in most of my locker inhabitants. The cycling of the ram/compression piston is much more direct, as you mentioned and the power is sufficient for the task at hand, if not better, in terms of accuracy as spiral waves of an expanding spring are removed?
I will not likely be investing in PCP pieces ever. I have grown accustomed to the single shot and jolting life of the spring/ram powered long and short arms. I would like some slight improvements, say, an evolution to the gas ram, a positive lock up of the break barrel breech (beyond the spring-powered cam or ball bearing), universal de-cocking provision (as in the Diana line), and a shock negating scope rail as standard features. Of course, that series of things would make them even more expensive…
My most recent Diana purchase was the 340 Luxus, and is gaining on my ancient Model 36 as my most favorite long rifle. The gas piston is the key along with the “fluff” of the walnut stock and the cut of the stock. It just looks rich and fits “just right.” It is not the most powerful of my pieces, probably the 350 ProCompact fits that bill along with the Hatsan M-135, but it just shoots accurately and well and doesn’t try and punish ME with nasty vibrations.
An irresistible piece, for me, as an incorrigible old springer devotee, would have a 19″ or so deeply blued barrel ending with a globe sight atop a muzzle weight with a selection of sight inserts (like the ones Diana made, if not makes); a locking breech perhaps with some degree of droop compensation (?), a gas ram with surplus power (?); the TO-6 trigger (or better?); a premium wooden stock; a shock absorbing/scope preserving scope rail; and a stock peep sight with the equivalence of a Williams Peep and added Merit Disc. With all this, of course, it raised the piece beyond my price range! Hopelessly futile, isn’t it? I’d add checkering of the fore stock and pistol grip but that would be excessive?
Such a piece would be amply sufficient for my basement 10 meter range, and would control the pest population that very occasionally trespasses my suburban lot. One of the coincidences of my basement range (which is JUST SHORT of an actual 10 meters) is that shooting out of any of my windows (save the front yard that would be patently a foolish act as it would be toward the street) is about the length of my range downstairs. As such, when I put in a garden in the back yard, marauding rabbits munching on my veggies met bad ends forthcoming from a quietly cracked open window and a higher velocity piece that just happened to be ranged for them.
I suspect that such a piece, while interesting and tempting to ME, is not deemed worthy of marketing by those who manufacture air arms. It would be considered retrograde from the PCP marketing that requires so many more needed pieces for sale to complete the whole shooting package. The advertising of huge power and distance shooting runs into conflict with the notion of a short-range piece devoted to accuracy rather than prowess of meters and foot pounds.
Oh well, “To each his own!” said the farmer as he kissed the cow! I’ll stick with my retrograde springers and the basement range with but an occasional foray into popping some nuisance critter gnawing on my property. I will very likely expire well before sales of spring weapons does. Then my son, the Lt. Colonel, will have the arms cache to do with as he pleases…
LFranke,
Whew! You have certainly said a lot here.
The first thing I would like to get straight with you is I personally do not care for the gas spring. Yes, they do eliminate much of the vibration and torque and are quicker and usually more powerful than “standard” coil springs, however I for one have experienced much more of the “cheek slap” with gas springs, due I suspect to the increased forward recoil.
Many of the evolutionary points that you desire in a sproinger is actually a de-evolution. Many old air rifles used to have barrel lockups, but that costs more in parts and labor. I have equipped some of my air rifles with sights as you describe. Some of the “old gals” had such to begin with. Some have superb triggers. As far as barrel lengths are concerned, the longer barrel only gives more leverage when cocking.
Yes, there is a bunch of cheap polymers and metals being used in the “modern” airguns, but that is due to cost savings.
Something I did figure out a long time ago is that you do not need geegobs of power if you can accurately place your shot.
Would I like a Diana 340 Luxus? From what I have seen and heard, very likely.
“She is certainly dressed nice, but the outfit does not make a dancer.”
Roger that, but however she looks, I hope she dances well. 😉
I do also. It would be nice to have a powerful sproinger that is also accurate around here.
RR: My Hatsan M-135 in .25 Caliber is that, BUT, the bore is oversized. The JSB Monster Exact III is enough oversized that it transformed the rifle into an accurate shooter. All other .25 pellets just bounce down the rifling and fling themselves in random ways.
the RWS/Diana 350 Pro Compact in .177 is exceedingly powerful in that caliber, but a vicious brute on scopes with no way to mount iron sights on it without machining the much needed muzzle weight so as to accommodate a front sight.
The most economical springer may well be my RWS/Diana 34 Panther. It shoots well and is accurate. Its only negative was a sizeable barrel droop affecting its iron sights AND the eventual scope (requiring a droop compensating scope rail adapter).
RidgeRunner,
Is my rememberer working if it recalls that the price of the rifle included a Hawke scope which really sealed the deal for you?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
You do have a real good rememberer. Yes, the deal I bought this sproinger for included a just retired design of a Hawke 2-7X32 AO IR scope. For the original price of the scope, I also bought this sproinger. To me it was a win-win. The last time the latest model of this scope was available at PAIR, it was selling for almost $150. It is apparently no longer available from them.
Interesting, looking forward to the tests for velocity and accuracy.
The Webley Tomahawk Spring Power Air Rifle is apparently still being made and available in India. It is a .177 caliber rifle with a specified 20 Joules (14.75 ft-lbs) energy level. Here is a link to the website page for the rifle:
https://webleyscott.in/products/tomahawk-spring-powered-air-rifle
If the rifle performs well, you may be satisfied with the purchase. I believe that I would.
Elmer,
Interesting. Mine is .22. Also, it did not come with sights or a way to mount them. I do not know if the one in India is made by Hatsan. The one you linked to does not seem to have the Quatro trigger.
Walnut polymer stock? What is that? Single stage trigger? Mine has a two-stage trigger.
It is all rather confusing to me. But I have just started reading a report by BB that might help clear up some of it.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/09/the-webley-story-english-or-turkish/
Thanks Elmer. That certainly helps me to understand what happened a little better. It sounds like I missed out big time on the “newer” UK Webleys. This Tomahawk does have a scope stop, which is a big improvement.
Is the trigger better? That I do not know.
RR: You’re not the only one to have a scope stop pin too shallow. I guess we form a fraternity of two (the rest of them are, of course, keeping things hidden…).
My venerable RWS/Diana Model 36 has a significantly malformed stop pin hole that is permanently impact deformed by being a tad bid big and shallow for the forces that the spring put into it when trying to hold scopes in place. It was probably hopeless from the start as it broke one or two scopes by its double-recoil action.
I finally got smart and abandoned scopes on the thing and have very light peep sights by Williams in their place along with the single modification of a Merit adjustable aperture disc. With the mass significantly reduced, things stay in place minus the futility of stop pins.
There are somethings about shooting springers that no one tells you directly. There is some mention of the double recoil, but the ancillary bit about “cold forging” the scope ramp seems to be missing along the way. Folks rejoice in the good numbers for foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, but fail to mention that energy also pounds the rifle itself as well as the target. I guess maybe it’s user error not to make the connection between the cheek twang and the dynamics of the rifle itself?
I would love to see or read an interview with someone in Diana’s design department from the 60s or 70s and find out what exactly was the thinking behind the design of the Diana scope rail, especially the little screw toward the rear that sticks up and that everyone thinks is a scope stop until they shear it off.
My personal theory is that it was never initially intended as a scope rail, but as a peep sight rail for the Diana peep sight with the grooved “foot” that engages the grooves on the top of the rail. Perhaps that’s why it is so hard to put a scope on Dianas.
Personally, for closer ranges and especially for target shooting, I have come to prefer peep sights, too.
RG,
Peep sights are exactly what those Diana rails are designed for.
LFranke,
Most people do not talk about stock slap and such, but the newbies very soon learn about it. 😉
RR,
Pity you do not have a UK made Webley and Scott. Those are nice guns. A guy at the range has one he often brings out.
-Y
Yogi,
I did not know they even existed. That would be a nice one to have. It must have been one of the last models they made before going belly up.
For a bit Hatsan also made the Tempest air pistol. I had one of the original UK versions and like a fool I let it go because it would not shoot anywhere near as nice as my Izzy. Duh. That was before I created RRHFWA.
RidgeRunner
I am wondering what fpe you will get from this .22 rifle. If it is based on the Hatsun 95 (scope stop sure looks the same) it may be a good candidate for down tuning. I say this because my Hatsun 95 converted to steel spring by Hatsun Repair after the gas spring failed delivers 17 fpe with JSB 10.34 grain .17 caliber pellets. My rifle’s barrel is reasonably accurate delivering sub one inch 10 shot groups at 25 yards. I am positive accuracy would be better if tuning down that coiled spring was within my capability. Why am I so certain? Answer is it was more accurate with the gas spring before it failed.
But first you will discover if your rifle is accurate enough to consider tuning.
Deck
Deck,
I have shot this honker some recently and it is quite powerful, but it is my goal to keep it so. Most of my sproingers around here are not very powerful in a relative sense. Their focus at the time they were made was accuracy, not velocity.
Your issue with the gas spring is why I do not care for them. I know this was a problem with many of the early ones, but once a prejudice is established, it is difficult to shake. Also, the power of a metal spring can be adjusted, while most gas springs cannot. It is a relatively simple matter to reduce the power of a metal spring by shortening it. This does require that you have a spring compressor though. Another nice thing about having a metal spring is that it can be replaced more easily.
I have considered lowering the power of this some. First thing though is to see just how accurate it is. What many newbies fail to realize is if you cannot hit what you are shooting at, all the velocity/power in the world is not going to help.
Ridgerunner
My most powerful (fpe) springer is my Hatsun 95 except for my gas springer Sig ASP20 making it ideal for hunting as well as target shooting and long range plinking.
We shall all see what you discover with the “Webley” and decide to do.
Deck
Deck,
How do you like you Hatsun 95? Is it smooth (not much buzz or twang). Is she hold sensitive? Seems like it has a following. So love some not so much. I’ve never seen on in person, but they look nice on PA’s wed site.
Doc
Doc
My converted to steel spring rifle became a Hatsun 95. Before the gas spring failure I believe it was less hold sensitive and delivering 10 shot groups at 25 yards between 1/2 and 3/4 inch most of the time. But it had an annoying pinging shot cycle sound. Now the ping is completely gone. The trigger pull weight in stage 2 seems to be a bit higher than before in spite of any adjustments I make. It is harder now for me to get the same accuracy as before. Keep in mind I’m shooting paper and 1/4 inch worse at 25 yards is important at least to me. A hunter may not notice the difference except for the sound.
Deck
Uh, not meaning to cause trouble here, but since you discovered the scope stop-screw was not set right on the Gamo, are you going to give it another chance to possibly hang out longer at RRHFWA? 😉
FM,
You are not causing trouble for me. As for the Gamo hanging out here at RRHFWA, not likely. I will give it one more try and I might even do a blog on it, but I do not care for the magazine thingy. It will end up living somewhere else.
Now this Tomahawk has a good chance of staying.
RR thank you for another guest blog. This one is interesting because I’ve always wondered about Hatsan springers. When was this one manufactured (ballpark)? Have they reportedly improved their quality control over the years since then? Also interested in the trigger quality and adjustability. Many manufacturers say a trigger is adjustable, but then the ajustment is only for the length of the first stage, not the weight or 2nd stage length and you must still endure a creepy, long 2nd stage pull.
RG,
When? I am not sure. I think the quality control thing was because Webley probably beat Hatsan down pretty bad on the price and Hatsan had to save money somewhere. I have heard nothing but good things about Hatsan for quite some time now. Are they the best? Probably not, but at their prices they do quite well. As for the Quatro trigger, it is not a Rekord or an Air Arms, but it is pretty good.
RR,
Really enjoyed reading today’s entry, especially the “History, Sort of” intro.
Here is an air rifle you’ve dredged out from the depths of your gun closet after shutting it away, wishing you could have returned it upon unpackaging. Sounds grim. She is pretty, but has rough spots. Lots of others have returned theirs and you can’t. Grimace.
But now, you will put her through her paces and pay attention to the details. Good luck! It will be interesting to see how well she dances! I’m rooting for her to be a strong, reliable shooter, with a stock that handles well. Hoping the H&N Excite Hammers do well, they’re a nice heavy pellet at a good value.
Regards,
Will
Will,
I will talk about my results with shooting her some soon. I would not hold out much hope for H&N pellets though.
RidgeRunner could you please PM me at rdshar5@gmail.com? I would like to ask you a few questions about the Webley/Hatsan before you do any more testing.
Thank you for your time
Richfromohio