Are CB caps as good and accurate as pellets? Part 5

by B.B. Pelletier

Announcement: John “J.” Stoll is this week’s winner of Pyramyd Air’s Big Shot of the Week on their facebook page. He’ll receive a $50 Pyramyd Air gift card.

John “J.” Stoll holds his Marauder pistol and 42mm BSA red dot.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

Today I will show you what CB caps did at 25 yards. Please remember the thrust of this investigation is to see whether a CB cap can be substituted for a good (read that as a PCP) air rifle. The four things I am interested in are the cost of ammo, accuracy, power and the noise at discharge.

Thus far we have learned that the air rifle is more accurate than the best CB cap at 50 yards. The pellets for that rifle are considerably less expensive than a similar quantity of CB caps and the dischange sound of my Talon SS with its 24-inch optional .22-caliber barrel the way I have it set up (with a bloop tube silencer installed) is as quiet as the quietest CB cap tested. And when I say CB cap, know that I’m also including the RWS BB cap in the list of ammo being tested.

So at 50 yards, you’ll want to choose an accurate precharged air rifle over a CB cap in any .22 rifle. But what about closer? What if the pests you want to shoot are no farther than 25 yards away? Today we will see how CB caps do at that distance, and of course as always, I will shoot the air rifle right with them, so we can keep track of things.

Airgun first
It was so easy to test the air rifle first, because if it is sighted-in at 50 yards, it’s also very close at 25 yards. In fact, my rifle is sighted-in for 25 yards and I have simply tolerated it at 50 yards because the group was close enough to the aim point. The same .22-caliber JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellet was used as at 50 yards.


The Talon SS set the bar pretty high for the rest of the rifles. Ten JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets went into this group measuring 0.436-inches between centers.

CCI CB Longs
Now it was the turn of the CCI CB Long CB caps. The first rifle to fire them was the Remington 521T that proved fairly accurate (for a CB cap) at 50 yards.


Ten CCI CB Longs went into this group measuring 1.83-inches at 25 yards. The Remington 521T did it.

After that, the Stevens 414 Armory stepped up to the plate. As you may recall, it did so poorly with both brands of CB caps at 50 yards that I fired a group of 9 Wolf Match Target rounds, which are regular .22 long rifle target rounds, just to see if the rifle was accurate at all. It was with that ammo, but not with the CB caps.

At 25 yards the 414 was a little better. Ten shots went into a group measuring 2.787 inches across. While that’s not tack-driving accuracy, at least they were all on the paper this time.


Not a killer group, but much better than the performance at 50 yards. Stevens 414 Armory shooting CCI CB Longs in this 2.787-inch group.

Aguila Super Colibri
The next round to be tested was the Super Colibri from Aguila. You may remember that we discovered that the Colibri rounds shoot way too slow for rifles and had to be eliminated from this test, so the Super Colibri is the only Aguila round being tested.

In the Remington 521T they performed adequately. Ten shots went into a group measuring 3.476 inches at 25 yards. While that might be good enough for plinking, no one would ever confuse it as an accurate round for pest elimination.


Not a stellar performance, but the best we did with Aguila Super Colibris at 25 yards. These ten shots made a 3.476-inch group.

Next up was the Stevens Armory 414, and while all ten shots did land on the target paper at 25 yards, they were spread out over 5-7/8-inches. Clearly the Stevens rifle does not like CB caps one bit. I won’t even show the group, because there is nothing to see.

RWS BB and CB caps
At this point the RWS BB caps and CB caps were up, and only one rifle is shooting them — my Winchester Winder musket. I did that because it is chambered for .22 Shorts, so the shorter RWS cases won’t cause as much trouble as they might in a rifle chambered for the .22 Long Rifle round.

The BB cap target I won’t show because the group is too large, and one round landed off the target. It measured about seven inches in all, which makes this round infeasible for use at 25 yards in this rifle. After the test is completed I may go back and try the round in the Remington, just to see if I’m right about the chamber being too long, but right now I’m finished with it at 25 yards.

The RWS CB cap, on the other hand, turned in a 10-shot group that measured 1.792-inches across, making it the best CB cap group at this range thus far. This tells be that the performance of the BB cap in this rifle is probably better than I would see in the Remington, because this rifle just out-shot the Remington’s best 25-yard group. So it is clear that the RWS CB cap is a cartridge to contend with, and also the Winder musket is no slouch in the accuracy department.


Best CB cap target at 25 yards to this point! The Winder musket can shoot and the RWS CB cap is not bad, either. Group measures 1.792-inchs across.

CCI CB Short
Only one cartridge remains — the CCI CB Short. We learned in the velocity test that it is equally powerful as the CB Long and has an identical bullet, so the only significant difference is the Short has a shorter case. It is ideal for rifles chambered for the .22 Short round.

You would think that would make this cartridge very similar to the CB Long, but that’s not how it turned out! When I was done with the string and looked at the target for the first time, I was amazed! The Winder musket has iron target sights, so I couldn’t see the group as it formed, and that was probably a good thing, because look at what it did.


Does this group look a lot like the tight air rifle group at the beginning of the report? It does to me. Ten rounds went into 0.981 inches, with nine of them cutting a group that measures 0.604-inches! That’s pretty amazing.

Obviously I have found a winner with the Winder musket and CCI CB Shorts. They are equally accurate as the air rifle and might be used to pick squirrels off the bird feeder, as long as it isn’t too far away, and the rifle is sighted-in for the cartridge.

Sum up for 25 yards
At 25 yards, some CB caps will work, while others won’t. It seems to rely a lot on the individual rifle at this range. Since I have only tried a couple rifles, I would think the possibilities are wide open for anyone who owns a .22 rimfire.

Let’s remember that these bullets are being powered by priming compound, alone. And it is the priming step that is both the most critical in the production of rimfire ammunition, and also the one most prone to failures. I did have several failures to fire with the Stevens Armory 414, but when I shot .22 Long Rifles there was only a single failure and that one didn’t work after three tries. Perhaps the Armory could use a tuneup, and maybe that is what is behind its poor showings.

The last group shown was the one that really stunned me. I would have bet big money before conducting this test that no CB cap in any rifle would every turn in that kind of performance. Well, that’s why I’m doing this. Now we all know a lot more about what CB caps can and cannot do.

There is one more test to conduct at 10 meters. That’s for those who just want to shoot squirrels in their attic. Then I will sum up all the important lessons this report has revealed.

Till then!

74 Responses to “Are CB caps as good and accurate as pellets? Part 5”

  • pcp4me Says:

    BB,

    So the big surprise is that the CCI short cb caps turned in a good group with your winder and iron sights?

    HMMM……what surprises me is that other rifle/round combos did not do better at 25 yards. And I would expect some pretty good groups at 10 meters also.

  • twotalon Says:

    B.B.

    Not a big surprise that everything shot tighter at 25 than at 50, or that the Winder shot the CBs best of the bunch because it is chambered for shorts. It is surprising that it did as well as it did at 25 considering the velocity variations that CB caps usually have.

    When you drop to 10m the Winder should really look good. You are going to have to be having a really good day on the bench to tell the difference between this rifle and the TSS.

    twotalon

  • twotalon Says:

    It’s Friday, it’s raining AGAIN, so what the heck………….

    Is a ten shot group always bigger than a five shot group ? Maybe, maybe not.
    Depends on which shots you threw the worst. Could have been the first two.

    Look at this one inch group. One of the first five was thrown badly to the left (really twitched that one). The rest stayed pretty much in the same area and were mostly influenced by poor control and wobble. There are approx. 20 shots in the group.

    How would I pick out the best three shot group out of this mess?

    http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/DSC_0005-1.jpg

    twotalon

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      twotalon,

      My comment on your group is that the flier shouldn’t be counted, because you acknowledged it. And yes, ten-shot groups will almost always be larger than five-shot groups — all other things being equal. I bet that is true of this 20-shot group, minus the flier.

      B.B.

      • twotalon Says:

        Yes, if I kept the best four out of five of the first 5, then the additional shots would have made a larger group. Even without twitching one, which two shots will make the group the widest ? You never know for sure. Just more chances to have a wider group with more shots.

        twotalon

    • Herb Says:

      There is a statistical method called the bootstrap where you re-sample the observations. So you take the 20 shots in the group and select thousands of 10 shot and 5 shot groups from that set with replacement. You could then compare the tails of the distributions to determine what the probability is that a 10 shot sample would be larger than a 5 shot sample.

      For the sake of argument let’s suppose that there is one wild shot and 19 really tight ones. then the probability essentially is based on the likelihood of the wild shot in the 5 shot groups and not in the 10 shot group. This would be a simple combinatorial calculation.

      To not have the wild shot in the ten shot group would be (19/20)^10, and the probability of it being in the 5 shot group would be 5*(1/20). So the overall probability would be:
      ((19/20)^10)*(5*(1/20)) = 15%

      So the perverse nature of statistics.

      Regards,
      Herb

      • twotalon Says:

        Herb…

        I knew I was giving you an opening. That gives me a chance to ask you if your statistics can tell me which two shots will have the widest spread so I can shoot them into the ground instead of the target. Would be a good way to improve group size.

        I should have added a bit more info that might be useful to some.
        Throwing out the twitch that went low left and gave a 1 ” group size drops the group down to about 1/2″. Now, there were about 3 shots that were going low of the main group center. These happened when I let the front of the trigger guard touch my left wrist. If I throw them out too, that gets the group down to something close to 1/4″.

        With that extra information what do I know? Well, don’t let the trigger guard touch my wrist. It is a bad thing and will vertical string low. I already know that getting my left hand too far forward will vertical string high. Of course, twitching the shot is bad all the time no matter what.
        I also know that the rifle/pellet combo is very consistent when I am not doing something wrong.

        Might make a good topic some time…………how to tell when a problem is the shooter, gun, ammo, or a combination thereof.
        I know that it can be difficult to figure out. May be common to fixate on just one thing without watching everything else that is going on. Jumping to conclusions (the wrong ones) may be commonplace.

        twotalon

        • Herb Says:

          Statistics of course isn’t magic. It s just using a mathematical analysis to keep us from fooling ourselves. The human brain is just wired to look for patterns, and we will find patterns even when none exist.

          For instance it makes sense that having your wrist touch the trigger guard would cause problems. The problem here is that “it makes sense.” We’d generally accept the conclusion without demanding a rigorous statistical experiment to determine the veracity of the claim. The statement would really fall into the realm of an “educated guess.”

          Hope I provided the expected amusement. ;-)
          Herb

          • Lloyd Says:

            Herb,
            I never have had a firm grasp on statistics much beyond the “it makes sense” part, which of course makes me a loose canon for talking about statistics. The math is interesting, but for me, it is: drawing conclusions where there are none to be drawn, or drawing the wrong conclusion, or totally missing the point, LOL. I am definitely one of those “don’t know what I don’t know” folks. But I know that is your home turf!
            So back to shooting high shot-count groups and estimating what it says about the probability for smaller count groups. When we shoot a group, we are testing everything, each with its own sort of weighting factor: gun, pellet, person, bench setup, weather, etc. It seems that the “person” might be the most influential variable from session to session. The gun and pellet shouldn’t change, and you can monitor the weather and set-up. So back to what TT was doing, if you shot a few 20 shot groups and almost always got 1 flyer, your probability of always getting a good 5 shot group would be pretty good. But if most of your 20 shot groups had 3 flyers, then your probability for a 5 shot group would be much less, right?
            I am not really sure what my question is but we (I) usually shoot 5 shot groups so that I have at least one real pretty “keeper” group. But would it be more meaningful, or more indicative of my true capability if I shot a 20 shot group and based the success on the size of the tight group and the number of fliers? Now this is assuming a pretty tight group with random fliers. I hope that made some sense, it did to me, LOL! I am picturing the bell curve!
            Thanks, Lloyd

          • Herb Says:

            Lloyd,

            The math is pretty simple. if you are shooting three flyers out of 20 then the probability of shooting a good shot is:
            17/20 = 85%
            But the probability of shooting 20 good shots in a sequence is:
            (0.85) ^20 = 3.9%
            the probability of 5 good shots in sequence is:
            (0.85)^5 = 44%

            I have often wondered if exactly that sort of behavior is why most of us shoot small groups and keep the best group as “representative.” Actually if we shoot multiple groups, the the most meaningful statistics would be the average group size.

            Flyers could be handled, but it does make the math slightly more complicated, and you’d have to use tables for corrections. Unfortunately I do not know a source for the right tables.

            • Lloyd Says:

              Herb,
              Ok, now you have made me a little more dangerous with statistical knowledge, LOL. Seriously, though, thanks. It is quite logical, like I thought it would be.
              And that is certainly why I limit my groups to 5 shots. I am always warming up until I get to that “representative” keeper. Then I am done!
              Lloyd

        • Wulfraed Says:

          All my textbooks on “R” are at home… But Google does give an intro…

          http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/r/library/bootstrap.htm

          So other than making the measurements (x, y) for each shot, the number crunching may not be that difficult (if one has installed R ['tis "free"]).

          If one wanted to dig deeper, one could add categorization data for the position of the left hand (with a big enough data set, you might discover you SHOULD put your wrist on the trigger guard and readjust the sights, to get better groups)

    • flobert Says:

      Raining? We’ve not seen rain for 6 months, and it’s about 80 degrees here, at 11:22 at night!

      • twotalon Says:

        You in Texas ? My wife’s kid lives in Porter down there and they have been hot and dry for a long time.

        twotalon

        • flobert Says:

          Nope, Gilroy, California.

          And I’ve got some kind of a horrible summer cold.

          • KidAgain Says:

            Flobert,

            Ahh Gilroy! The garlic capitol of the world! I’ve been there many times when I was building retail and fast food stores. Nice place. Love the terrain and mild weather. I am most impressed with that huge earthen dam holding back the San Luis Reservoir on the way to Gilroy from the 5. For what ever reason it really left an impression. And I have always took time to enjoy the scenery around the lake when I’m in the area!
            God speed to you with that cold!

            ka

            • Fred PRoNJ Says:

              Flobert,

              out of idle curiosity and the desire to get my name in the blog :), is that BBQ place, West Texas BBQ I think it is, still in business? Went there back in 2000 when I was at Carmel, CA for the Motorcycle GP races at Laguna Seca.

              Fred PRoNJ

              • flobert Says:

                I’ve not heard of any West Texas BBQ here. We have some place that just opened called Barbecue 152 or something, I don’t know how long they’ll last in a town where everyone’s broke. That’s on Monterey Highway right in town, that might be the place you’re talking about, I think it was an empty building for a long time. We have a lot of those.

            • flobert Says:

              We have a bunch of empty stores now, thanks.

              • KidAgain Says:

                Flobert,

                Ha! I just saw your comment. Yea, sorry for the empty stores. If I hadn’t built ‘em they’d of been built by someone else. I did get 3 flat tires the last time I was there, if that makes you feel any better! :) And as I recall when I was leaving the lights on my trailer stopped working and I got rained on while trying to find the problem on side of road in front of the garlic processing plant!! I still love the area and do have a sweet spot for Gilroy. You live in a great area as far as I’m concerned.

                ka

                • flobert Says:

                  I’m sorry you got 3 flats, and for sure there’s no way one person, you or anyone else, could have built all the empty stores and half-finished houses we have out here.

                  For agriculture, and for surviving the coming hard times, we like to think this is a pretty good place. As Bison of Bison Survival Blog says, living out in the country, you won’t be free of zombies, there will just be a lot less per square mile.

  • Frank B Says:

    I did something very odd yesterday.I had removed my .177 barrel from a Daystate Harrier to compair it with one for sale on the YF classifieds.I noticed that dimensions were the same on both ends with only two grub screw dimples signifying which end was the breech.There is also no discernable crown,it is just flat like BB’s Ballard.I wondered how bad it would shoot with the barrel installed backwards!? The crazy thing is it shot a 5 shot group @ 22 yds that measured .21 CTC.Didn’t expect that at all.No added resistance when loading either.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Frank,

      Well, that news flies in the face of all we know and hold dear about precharged barrels. Either your Daystate barrel is not choked, or it is choked at both ends. That is a result I would not have expected.

      B.B.

      • Frank B Says:

        I know BB….I’m sitting here studying the target.I shot it at dusk last night.I even shot it from the shoulder using the right door jamb to steady my left hand rest.It will get more testing today.The barrel is a .498″ tube,and like I said…..the grub screw indents appear to be the only difference between ends.I’ll push a pellet through and see if I can locate the choke (or chokes).

  • pcp4me Says:

    Frank,

    Well if it is chocked at both ends it is harder to tell about the choke(s) without pushing multiple pellets through. I suppose that the pellet going in would be harder to start and then become easier after the choke but at the other end it will be swaged down to the same diameter as the choke so there may not be another “tight spot” there?

    Guess you could turn the barrel around and push another down it from that end.

    • Frank B Says:

      That’s the plan.It’s the only way to “aproach” with a fresh pellet.I just finished shooting it some more
      using several different pellets.It’s shooting serious groups,even with wallyworld Crosman competition
      wadcutters @ 25 yds.The only slight fliers are my mistakes.My tenative conclusion is that the barrel may be shooting BETTER like this.Bizzare….

      • pcp4me Says:

        Frank,

        Lol well don’t look a gift horse in the mouth, what ever the hell that is supposed to mean! :-) If it works, go with it!

        • Frank B Says:

          pcp4me,I have been amazed since I bought it off the classifieds.Years ago,I remember looking at Daystate AGs in my FIRST forays on the internet…..and thinking “some day,I gotta see what they’re all about!” Well,when I saw a single shot Harrier for around $500,thankfully I leapt on it.It arrived with a Gary Cane stock from a much more expensive model.It weighs about 6lbs.It came fitted with a very effective ldc instead of the shroud.The trigger is light,crisp and very easy to shoot with.It is regulated by Korick and very consistent in the 930′s-980′s depending on pellet choice.Basically,it’s damn near perfect IMHO.Oh,and the stock came off a Daystate Merlyn! Gift horse is right.

        • Wulfraed Says:

          1) someone experienced can estimate the age of the horse by the wear on the teeth

          2) some expensive race horses get in identification mark tattooed on the upper gum line

          (combine the two, and you find out your gift horse is a near death old nag that never won a race)

  • Robert from Arcade Says:

    The best 10 shot groups I got at 25 yards using my Winchester Low Wall with a 16X Fecker target scope was 1.178 at 25 yards. The worst was 1.682. The POI was slightly higher than the POA with the CB’s than the CCI regular velocity .22′s at 25 yards. Windage was the same for both, so you would have to aim about 3/4″ lower to cancel a feeder raiding squirrels ticket using the CB’s. My gun was re-barrelled with a straight 1.00 target barrel and has a tight match chamber. The barrel on my gun is 27″ long. It is similar to yours except for the scope, and being chambered for the regular .22 RF cartridge. So there is the jump to the rifling. Groups with plain old CCI regular velocity , solid 40 gr bullets, will do as small as 0.226 at the same distance for ten shots. Also,I used only the Remington C-bee’s which everyone says are crap, and because that’s what was available at my local shop. A shooter inexperienced with guns, trying to get by with the old .22 in the back of the closet, will buy what CB ammo is locally available. He’s not going to fool around testing anything.I also shot some CB longs in my Mauser single shot bolt action and a Browing T-bolt . Both are scoped . All were single loaded in the T-bolt as longs and shorts jamb when sent through the clip.Groups are in the 3-4″ range for ten shots at 25 yards. In these guns, most of the groups show a tighter cluster, then you get one or two that open it up. It is probably the priming issue you mention , and the poor QC of the Remington CB’s. I consider the CB ‘s to be even a poor contact round, and have them it fail to humanely kill trapped animals at point blank range. IMO,If you don’t have a backstop, use a powerful airgun that you can shoot accurately, as accuracy is everything in a under powered small bore round used to dispatch pests. As a practical matter I have personally gone to using HP sub-sonic .22 RF in all my .22′s for this task.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Robert,

      Thanks for sharing all that with us. I guess the chamber length issue might be born out in reality?

      I don’t think Remington makes CB caps at this time. You probably bought new old stock rounds, because my search failed to turn them up.

      B.B.

      • Robert from Arcade Says:

        BB: You are correct, mine were new/old stock, but they are listed at several sources on’line . One I found is http://www.the gunsource.com, and http://www.remington .com /products on the Remington’s company web site. Natchez Shooters supply is another that also has them listed. They are the 33 gr HP’s that go 750fps or so. mine were in 50 round cardboard boxes, but the ones on-line are in plastic boxes of 100.

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Robert,

          I guess I should have included them in this test, but when I researched the internet for CB caps, Remington did not come up. I both bought and had donated the ammo I am testing, and I would have bought some of their stuff had I know about it.

          B.B.

    • kevin Says:

      Robert from Arcade,

      Wanted to thank you.

      I’m almost finished with the reading of Yours Truly Harvey Donaldson.

      Several observations:

      1-My benchrest shooting has already improved my adopting several of his techniques. Biggest change for me was getting the gun out of the pocket of my shoulder.

      2-I was a very sloppy reloader.

      3-If we as airgunners want supreme accuracy we should spend more time weighing and sorting ammo and experimenting with lubes. For airgun shooting I think lubes should be lower on the list of priorities since I’ve only had two guns (both pcp’s) that showed measurable improvement using krytech sparingly. Never saw improved accuracy with other lubes but whiscombe honey extended the necessary barrel cleaning periods on my Diana 54.

      kevin

      • Robert from Arcade Says:

        Kevin : Glad you enjoyed the book ,I have never regretted the money I’ve spent on my books. I would give away most of my guns before the books. I found that BB’s recomendation of the Whiscombe honey to improve the accuracy of my RWS .177 cal 320 copy of the R-9 when shooting cp lites, that, and the Macarri guts I installed. On re-loading , you are right the devil is in the details. You can load cheap plinking ammo but really the days of beating out factory ammo in accuracy is over. It is probably even cheaper to buy plinking ammo than it is to spend hours at the bench. You can though ,load bullets which actually are what achieves the final results for a load in a paticular gun that the factory doesn’t offer in some calibers. The lube WILL! make a difference in lead bullet loads and muzzle loading. The last deer I shot got me busted in the face from recoil as I was holding the gun like Harvey said. So loose I almost could drop it. Got the deer though, right where I aimed , clean one shot dispatch,so the bench does teach you some stuff.

      • B.B. Pelletier Says:

        Robert and Kevin,

        I will latch onto this thread and ditto Kevin’s remarks. For starters, yesterday I had my Remington 788 in 30-30 out and for the first time I shot a sub one-inch group at 100 yards. That was with 6 grains of Unique and a 125-grain jacketed bullet. Donaldson said not to put a wad over the powder, but to elevate the rifle before each shot and then lower it slowly to the rest to leave the powder next to the primer.

        This was just a proof of concept test for shooting lead bullets in the same gun. I never would have tried such an odd combination if I hadn’t read that book.

        I also overhauled an old Lyman bullet mold that I got in a trade years ago, and now it’s turning out the best lead bullets I cast in any of my molds. More of Donaldson’s advice.

        My biggest regret is that I have lived 64 years and been a serious shooter and reloader for 48 of those years and knew none of this. I don’t have enough time left to try all the things I want to, but Donaldson has convinced me to load my Ballard differently, so we’ll see what that does for me.

        Thanks, again, for telling us about this book!

        B.B.

        • kevin Says:

          B.B.,

          I also hope you take to heart the fact that Harvey Donaldson continued shooting AND writing until he was well into his 80′s.

          kevin

          • B.B. Pelletier Says:

            Kevin,

            I do see that, and I plan to do the same, but all the time I wasted with Weatherbys and .458 Winchesters! I could have been shooting schuetzens and chuck rifles.

            B.B.

            • kevin Says:

              Maybe it was wasted time. Most of us have to travel down many miles of unpaved, washboard road to arrive at the smooth pavement.

              kevin

  • Tom @ Buzzard Bluff Says:

    B.B.,
    Like another commenter I find my self underwhelmed by the “big surprise” that “a special version of Winchester’s popular 1885 Low Wall model” wearing a barrel designed specifically for the low end of the velocity spectrum was able to shoot one decent group. My initial inclination is to wonder “How many Winders stand in a corner behind the back door compared to Marlin model 60s”? Tom

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Tom,

      As a former owner of a Marlin model 60 I can tell you that it is the last rifle I would try to shoot CB caps in. If the Ruger was a pain, I think the Marlin 60 would be a nightmare. But then I never tried it.

      However, your point is well-taken and correct. It seems there is a vast difference in performance just based on the rifle used.

      B.B.

    • Robert from Arcade Says:

      Tom : you are right about the Winchester, but Joe -six pack is going to try the CB’s anyways. For me, just watching one of the current cable TV hunting shows makes sorting pellets almost fun, and a lot more educational. What is sad is that these folks will load up that old .22 and shoot one poor raccoon off the back deck and then declare the CB’s perfect for the task. He won’t remember the ones who got shot in the jaw and suffer because they can’t eat, because he doesn’t realize those .22 CB’s don’t shoot as well as his regular stuff. If someone is considering buying a powerful air rifle for this use maybe they’ll read this. There’s always hope?

  • kevin Says:

    This has been an interesting series for me.

    My first powder burner was a .22. I was probably 10 years old when I was given this gun. I’ve had a rimfire in my arsenal ever since.

    During all this time I never paid much attention to CB caps. Never had a need or use for them. I assumed that they were a quiet, low powered round that would perform at short distance as well as a decent LR round. The lack of accuracy at 50 yards didn’t surprise me but the general lack of accuracy for CB caps at 25 yards has been an eye opener for me. Although the groups from the winder musket are impressive I think this has confirmed that I haven’t missed anything by not shooting CB caps.

    kevin

    • Volvo Says:

      Well, interesting as usual, even if it answers a question that probably is not asked often i.e. : should I use CB caps or buy a PCP. Most likely the more typical decision is investing in a Gamo Big Cat or using the bolt or lever action .22 already found in the home. As B.B. states CB caps will not cycle the action in semi autos. This is probably the first piece ever to try them out to fifty yards, so that part did confirm what many assumed to be true.

      I’d also guess most of the folks making the above decision are a little more rural since the .22 rimfire is even an option and distances are probably closer to about 45 feet or less, so yeah CB caps work. (Otherwise they would load a standard .22 LR for longer shots) Pigeons in the barn and other pests should all be fair game as well as the bunny in the corner of the garden.

      My disclaimer is that I have used CB caps for years, but never in the manner have I described above. They are shot out of a revolver at 7 to 10 yards indoors to try and hone what little handgun ability I have.

      Kevin, living out west I can picture you doing this in your pool room with a six shooter. I have to believe you own a 1st generation Colt that you wear on your hip at your mountain cabin. If you don’t, don’t tell us as I would rather believe it anyway.

      I received the call from Paul Watts on Monday that my Beeman HW50 is nearly complete. He said the barrel was not choked, apparently the newer HW are choked by accident when the front sight grooves are installed. The older ones were machined on, so he went ahead and choked it. Interesting based on what FrankB was saying about his barrel possibly not being choked. Sounds like another test.

      Scope wise I never did get anything for it. I will probably just steal something from another gun for the time being. Looks like I still won’t be able to compete with your gorgeous R8 anytime soon.

      • kevin Says:

        Volvo,

        Yes, I heard about your HW50 when I spoke to paul earlier this week. Not unusual to have unchoked barrels in the early weihrauchs. He’s choked a few of mine and it did help. I’ve got a few guns coming back from him as well. Wish he wouldn’t tell me and just ship them since now I’m like a kid waiting on Christmas.

        kevin

        • Volvo Says:

          Kevin,

          A “few” coming back from Paul, nice. My call wasn’t all good news, had to send him another $125.00 to finish the work. That said, price was still more than fair for all I had asked for.
          Curious what you’re having tuned, saw you have been selling some Walther’s on the yellow.

          Slinging lead,

          Discovery number two is still in the testing phase.
          After giving it some thought, I think its real competition is the Benjamin \ Sheridan multi- pump pneumatics. My refurb looks like new and at $150.00 is in the same price point as a 397. Fit and finish wise the stock is no longer walnut, but it is much smoother than gun number one. The wood itself has a small knot in the forend and the stain is streaked at the top of the butt. Initially I thought this might have been the reason for the return. But for me, all in all I like stock number two better than number one.

          Trying to sight a scope in on it, I found out its real issue. Shoots right, way right, however a quick once over showed the barrel band was to blame. The small hole in the barrel for the grub screw is off center on the barrel and that in turn pushes the barrel to the right. I moved the band forward of the hole a bit and it flexed back into place. So much for the Urban Legend that refurbs are better as they have been gone over by hand.

          Indoors this .177 is a good shooter same as the .22 was. Other observations, I do like the low fill pressure as pumping is easier and the noise is less. I’ll try it at longer ranges when the rains end.

          • Slinging Lead Says:

            Volvo

            “…still in the testing phase.” I suppose what this means is that it hasn’t sold yet. Please don’t take my skepticism for sarcasm.

            I installed a 2nd barrel band on my (wife’s) Discovery, not so much because I was bothered by barrel flex or accuracy issues but because I think it looks better. The stock on mine is nothing to write home about. I will probably sand it down and give it an oil finish, since I must shorten the length of pull for Mrs Slinging Lead anyway, which will involve contouring the end so the buttplate still fits.

            Your comparison to the 397 is a good one. Both rifles are light, svelte, shoulder easily, and are natural shooters. Also shooting both rifles involves pumping, though pumping my Benjamin pump is much easier than putting even just five pumps in my Blue Streak. Of course the Discovery is essentially a 2260 with an airtube and modified valve, but that is too obvious a comparison. They aren’t anything fancy, but that is part of the appeal. The fact that you were able to correct its scope issue so easily is testament to that.

            I have part two with photos almost finished if you are interested.

            • Frank B Says:

              Does your 392 slam on the pump stroke? Mine was so loud when the pump arm closes on each pump stroke,I glued a pad of thick leather between the arm inside end and the frame.I have since ridded myself of it…..in hindsight the pumphead was probably a little too long.It acted like a Daisy 717 that was adjusted too long.I don’t know if the 392 had an adjustment on it.I have a 347 that’s like new,still has 98% of the flat black finish….as well as a C9 in similar condition.Both were found by local pickers that I have conditioned (w/ $$$) to bring me any “old” airguns they encounter at garage sales etc…
              This relationship has bore much fruit over time.I won’t bore you with all they have brought me.

            • Volvo Says:

              Slinging Lead,

              I would be happy to see the end of the story on your wifes Discovery. Shoot me an e-mail with it and the pictures at your convenience. Also, I understand your skepticism, but my selling is really not due to a fickle mind.

              As far as pumping multi-pumps, I think we are on the same page. I know Tom and Edith love them, but they are just not my box of wine. I’ll take the Disco and a hand pump any day. The only one that doesn’t bother me too much is the Daisy 922.

              Lastly, when it comes to good Karma, I’d say FrankB deserves it in boat loads.

          • kevin Says:

            Volvo,

            Paul has about a dozen of my guns. Mostly vintage 10 meter stuff. Some of my finer dst’s. The next gun coming back from him is an early 70′s HW35L. It had an export spring in it from the factory and it was awful. I asked paul to smooth tune this HW35L like he did an HW35E. The smooth tune on the HW35L turned out shooting 818fps with a jsb 8gr. I’m excited to get this one back. Sometimes all the planets line up.

            He’s also doing a custom FWB124 for me in .22 caliber. That one is in a spectacular macarri tyrolean stock that fits me like a glove. Can’t wait to get that one back.

            kevin

  • Tom @ Buzzard Bluff Says:

    I chose the Marlin M-60 as an exemplar because more of them have been sold in one guise or another than virtually all other rimfires combined since they were introduced. By comparison the odds of that being the grab and go rifle for vermin defense is so much higher than an extremely rare antique target rifle suggests that Joe 6-pack is far more likely to try the powder-less rimfires in it than a Winder—or any of the other target grade or accurized (Ruger) rifles used for the test
    With that it mind the Winder results are an extreme anomaly unrelated to common reality. While I find the test enormously interesting to me the more important test of shooting the round thru the rfles most apt to be used simply hasn’t yet been done. But enough data was gathered to make further testing un-necessary—the reasonable mind can already grasp what the result would be—the BB or CB caps have no utility in vermin control because of extremely poor accuracy in anything apt to be in the arsenal of Joe. Respectfully, Tom

    • pcp4me Says:

      Tom,

      Well, lets hope “Joe six pack” or who ever has not had several six packs when he tries them in his Marlin Model 60 or Ruger 10/22! Cause that would make a wonderful movie for “Americas funniest home movies” or what the heck ever that show is called! ROFLMAO!

  • Matt61 Says:

    Well, the CB caps did better than I expected, but it looks like the Talon is the star of the show. That is quite some group there.

    Jan, thanks for the WWII pics. Yes, that is Lyudmila Pavlichenko in the first shot with her Mosin Nagant that I have as well. When I shoulder the weapon like her and look through that scope with its three line reticle, I’d say that Lyudmila and I are virtually one. :-) It’s worth noting that her incredible record was compiled within a very short time of a few months. As the Bible says, “All day long Joshua mowed down Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.” But she took heavy punishment in the form of multiple severe wounds and concussions. She almost certainly would have been killed if she had not been pulled out to be a sniping instructor and propaganda figure. And even so, she did not escape since her war wounds undoubtedly contributed to her premature death at age 58. Yes, the Eastern Front was quite something. Even in Hogan’s Heroes, wasn’t it the byword for everything horrible? The idea of women as front-line combatants in that bloodbath is just beyond my comprehension.

    In the series, I could also identify with those Japanese women sorting through brass cases, which is exactly what I’ve been doing.

    Matt61

  • Mike Says:

    As I recall, the main difference between BB and CB caps is that the BB caps have only priming as a propellant. The CB caps do have a small powder charge. I would use my RWS 54 over them all the time.

    Mike

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Mike,

      Thanks for reminding me! I remember hearing that when I was young, as well.

      So just now I pulled the bullet from a CCI CB Long and indeed, it does have a very small powder charge. I will include data on that in a furure report.

      Thanks,

      B.B.

  • twotalon Says:

    American Airgunner this morning at 9 AM eastern time. Provided that the prievue channel is not handing man any BS (again).

    twotalon

  • flobert Says:

    10 meters or even less seems to be a pretty common range for shooting pests. In fact I wonder if that’s how 10 meters evolved as the standard range for air weapons? If you’re puttering around in the Black Forest hoping for a squirrel or some sort of game bird, you’re going to be shooting at 10m or less. Distances inside a typical barn would generally be 10m or less. So for pellets, 10m isn’t a bad range to judge them by (although I like the longer ranges and knock-down criterion of Field Target better) and CBs are a kinda…. pellet-ish…. sort of …. thing.

  • twotalon Says:

    Speaking of “fliers”….here’s one that didn’t fly far . Not even fit for lizard food now.

    http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/DSC_0007.jpg
    http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/DSC_0006.jpg
    http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/DSC_0005-2.jpg

    That will teach the little SOB to fool around with the R9.

    twotalon

    • Frank B Says:

      That’s awesome.The second picture is of what I answer when people ask”how do you know it didn’t just fly away??” I’m a little disappointed you didn’t take the head shot…LOL

      • twotalon Says:

        Well, there was the wind, and I only had a 3-9 scope. Was not going to eat it, so I went for a center shot like deer hunters do and end up with gut shots.
        I like the way that the remains splattered into the edge of my target holder.

        twotalon

        • flobert Says:

          The first photo is hilarious “Help meeeee” LOL.

          I am no fan of flies.

          Insects are basically robots, I do not take joy in the suffering of a mammal, bird, or fish, but bugs are more followers of a program than any kind of aware, much less self-aware, being. I’m still nice to almost all bugs. I restrict the gratuitous violence to mosquitoes, flies, wasps, stuff like that. (But not spiders they are cool).

          • twotalon Says:

            You must also be a fan of the old classics with Vincent Price, Christiopher Lee, and Peter Cushing. Lon Chaney and Bela Lugosi too!

            I hate flies and gnats. Spiders and wasps are conditional. ……No big hairy spiders in the house, but daddy long legs is OK in the basement. Wasps are OK as long as they are not a pest or their nest is in a place that poses a hazzard to me. The YJs are a particular nuisance this time of year and make cleaning squirrels quite an adventure. They like meat too, and also get into your beer or coke.(the kind you drink…not the stuff you snort). By the way…don’t ever cough or have someone make you laugh when you have a mouth full of Coke. It is very bad when expelled through your nose.

            Twotalon

          • Wulfraed Says:

            The spiders are okay until they climb up my computer desk and march across the mousepad and onto the keyboard.

            Was a cool summer; July only had three or four “June bugs” blunder into my apartment to die (last summer I was averaging two or three a night for the first two weeks of July..). Nasty brown dung beetles that bump into the reading lamp and drop into the couch as I’m eating.

            • flobert Says:

              Haha I read that too fast and got “drop into my mouth…”

              Crane flies seem to always want to fly right into my chops, they’re kinda like those rubber-band airplanes we used to play with that would always end up awkward places. I just catch ‘em and put ‘em outside.

              • Wulfraed Says:

                Forgot about those… Wouldn’t be so bad if they could FLY straight… They just blunder around my ceiling (though I went a few years with a carcass in the bathroom — it managed to get one foot/claw hooked into the access panel to the upstairs plumbing, and I never felt like getting a ladder to pull it off)

                • flobert Says:

                  They’re really bad fliers, it’s amazing they get anywhere at all. What I think are funny are click beetles, those are always a laugh. I usually have fun making them click a few times then put them outside. There’s also a kind of spider I call a “forward roll” spider, if I puff air at one, it does this cool forward roll like it’s a commando and continues on its way.

    • KidAgain Says:

      TT, Awesome pics. Loved the dear hunter, mid section comment!

      ka

      • twotalon Says:

        Deer hunters are a bad joke around here. They make it worse for all hunters and shooters.
        Their idiotic and illegal behavior does a lot to damage the reputation of all shooters and hunters. They are the most conspicuous of all hunters….. mainly because gang hunting is allowed in my state.

        twotalon

  • Matt61 Says:

    Well, Diana Nyad just ended her second attempt to swim from Cuba to Florida. As she was braving wind, waves, hypothermia and jellyfish bites to her face, I suppose that she was enjoying the feeling of being truly alive as she explained at the outset of this latest attempt. Well, I have a suggestion for her before attempt number 3. I just rolled out of bed at noon today, and I feel plenty good and alive myself (apart from nursing a small cold), and I don’t have the faintest desire to do long-distance ocean swimming. It’s a sometimes overlooked aspect of airgunning (vis a vis the cb cap test) that you can do it in the safety and comfort of your own home.

    Now then, on the subject of Jan’s great archival material. Have a look at this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83iWBsELJFw&feature=related

    British women doing jiu-jitsu in the 1930s (there are related videos). Some things never change–I like her suit. :-) As for the techniques, they are correct although I don’t know if I would bet on her executing them for real as shown. As I seek to explore British culture through my Lee-Enfield, I also came across this reflection on police work from the Gilbert and Sullivan opera The Pirates of Penzance.

    WHEN A FELON’S NOT ENGAGED IN HIS EMPLOYMENT (his employment)
    OR MATURING HIS FELONIOUS LITTLE PLANS (little plans)
    HIS CAPACITY FOR INNOCENT ENJOYMENT (-cent enjoyment)
    IS JUST AS GREAT AS ANY HONEST MAN’S (honest mans)

    OUR FEELINGS WE WITH DIFFICULTY SMOTHER (-culty smother)
    WHEN CONSTABULARY DUTY’S TO BE DONE (to be done)
    AH, TAKE ONE CONSIDERATION WITH ANOTHER (with another)
    A POLICEMAN’S LOT IS NOT A HAPPY ONE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO8Usprq078&feature=related

    Don’t know if they would have been much help in the recent riots though. :-)

    Matt61

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