by B.B. Pelletier
I bought this .45 ACP pistol because of the advertising. The claims were, and still are, that you could buy a gun with $2,100 worth of custom features and factory-tuned adjustments for about $500 (at the time). It seemed too good to be true, but having held one at a SHOT Show for a couple minutes and dry-firing it a little, I convinced myself it was true.
I bought the gun and found out the hard way that it was not true–at least not for the particular gun I bought. My gun jammed an inordinate amount of the time, causing me to lose confidence in what was supposed to be a defense handgun. Not a good thing! It jammed 8 times in the first 84 shots with factory hardball ammo, which has the reputation as the most reliable ammo available.
I chose to do the work myself, so I could report to you exactly how far off the advertised mark this gun happened to be. I also wanted to learn what it took to make this 1911, or any one for that matter, reliable. I am still involved in that process, though today’s report is probably close to the end of the series. And I’ve learned a lot about this one particular handgun. At this point, I feel like Vince, who puts in the time on one airgun to get to know all its quirks and odd behavior.
Things did get better as I worked on the gun. At one point, I had it down to two feeding failures in about 100 rounds. Still too many for a defense gun, but much better than before.
I’m not ready to summarize this report just yet, but I’m getting close. I’ll bring you all up to date with what’s happened since the last time. Since then, I’ve run another 500 rounds through the gun, bringing the total to 1,700 rounds. My wife and I go to an indoor range about once a month to keep current with our chosen defense guns. I’d given her the Wilson Combat CQB Light Rail pistol that she had given to me so she would have an ultra-reliable defense sidearm while I worked with the Taurus. My military training and experience with firearms makes me better able to handle operational problems in a crisis, so if the Taurus jammed at a bad time I knew immediately what to do. However, fate intervened and I didn’t have to go there.
Just after the last installment, I was fortunate enough to acquire a Colt National Match .45. It’s a target pistol made by the Colt factory in the late 1950s and early 1960s. What they did was copy most of the modifications military armorers had been applying for decades to standard military .45s for use at the national matches at Camp Perry, Ohio. The airgun analog of this might be when Air Arms copied the Rekord trigger for their TX200 and added some aftermarket tricks custom airgunsmiths had been putting on the Rekord for field target shooters.
When she tried it for the first time, Edith found that she liked the grip on this new pistol much better than the Wilson, which had been modified to sit lower in the hand. She also liked the 6-lb. Colt trigger better than the Wilson’s trigger, which breaks at 3.5 lbs. I put a set of custom wood grips on the gun, and in after session it became Edith’s new defense pistol. We’ve tested it with my now-reliable handloads, and it functions perfectly. The Wilson will come back to me, and Edith will now shoot the National Match. Dollar-wise it’s a wash, but examination shows the Colt to be a crude ancestor of the Wilson. Still, it’s reliable and accurate, which is all we want.
However, while all this was happening, I had also installed the new Wilson extractor in the Taurus and its behavior improved a thousand percent–meaning it’s now reliable! As I suspected (after lengthy research and reading dozens of reports about extractor problems on the internet), the Metal Injection Molded (MIM) extractor in the Taurus was the cause of 90 percent of the gun’s problems. I replaced it with a Wilson Combat extractor machined from a solid steel bar, and it functions without a problem, thus far (that being about 400 rounds).
During cleaning a few sessions back, I cleaned the Taurus firing pin and lost the tiny spring that powers the Series 80 firing-pin safety. Since this safety isn’t needed to make the gun any safer in real-world operation (it was a marketing ploy by Colt and has been tried and dropped by other manufacturers), I left those parts out of the gun. The result is now a 100 percent creep-free second stage on the trigger. It’s about one-half pound heavier than the Wilson and now just as crisp. Although I’ve purchased the spring that was lost, the performance is so much better that I’m leaving it as it is.
The final dubious parts in the pistol were the magazines. They have the weakest follower springs I’ve ever seen, and they made even the Wilson suffer feeding failures occasionally. However, they now seem to be able to function with the Taurus 100 percent. I’ve run 400 rounds without a failure of any kind. When that passes 500 rounds, I’ll start trusting the Taurus for the first time since buying it one year ago.
The thing to carry away from this is that not everything works as advertised. I read dozens of reports from Taurus PT 1911 owners before I bought the gun, and they all praised it to the heavens. Then, after I knew better, I found out there’s a smaller group that had the same problems as I had. But their voice has been muffled. Obviously, they’re not going to find a friend in the gun press.
The other thing to know is that at its heart, the PT 1911 really is a good gun. In fact, it’s just as good as they advertise. The problem seems to be one of spotty QC at the factory. I guess they reason that their warranty can fix any problems, but I didn’t take that approach. I didn’t, because I wanted to know more about the gun itself, and immersing myself in fixing the problem was a better teacher. That’s a decision each person must make for himself.
138 thoughts on “B.B. works it out – Part 6The Taurus PT 1911”
BB, what is it about the original extractor, compared to its replacement, that makes it unreliable? I’d think it would have to do with the shape, the hardness, or perhaps the weight of that part. If the MIM process results in an inferior part, it would have to be because the MIM process results in some mechanical property that causes the poor performance.
Oh, and I got those BB’s yesterday, so I’m hoping to shoot the PPK today – testing the Daisy vs the Crosman vs. the BB BB. (sorry, I had to work that in somehow!)
I really like those custom grips on the 1911.
You shoot hardball at the range but do you keep another load (hollowpoints?) handy since this is a defense weapon?
I’ve heard the same thing about 870 Wingmaster versus Express, down to the MIM parts being inferior. I think the problem is the substitution of MIM parts in a design with tolerances for a different manufacturing process, so that the failure rate due to out-of- tolerance parts goes up (which the manufacturer knows; its the tradeoff for a lower cost). For the consumer, its often a good tradeoff: simply make sure the one instance you have works and everything is fine. I suspect an MIM replacement might have worked as well.
I guess a man can’t have to many 1911’s….
I came pretty close this past weekend to getting a Colt 1911 in .38 super, but took a pass on it as I wanted something that would shoot cheaper ammo well. One thing that I will give to Colt that other makers, save Browning perhaps, cannot touch- the finish. Colt knows how to polish and blue a handgun. Admittedly a deep blue finish isn’t required or even desired on a defensive weapon, but…. well, either you know or you don’t.
I ended up going with a CZ SP-01 in 9mm (cheap ammo) after selling my dad my Browning Hi Power (nice finish, walnut grips, he wanted one real bad:-)) Softest shooting 9mm that I have ever fired, pointable, comfortable, accurate, and so far, reliable. I’m hooked.
Al in CT
RE: MIM Extractor
BB obviously is smarter than the average customer. His position that you need to have 500 trouble free rounds through weapon makes sense. It is a significant investment of time and money to shoot that many rounds. I sure wouldn’t want to do quality control by shooting 500 rounds to separate the good extractors from the bad ones.
Since we are talking about real guns today I have a question for you … What range do I zero a scope on a Ruger 10/22 to get the flattest trajectory out of it ?? I am shooting 36 gr. Remington HP at 1280 fps. I did some searching on the web already and everybody has a different answer or opinion about it . If I zeroed at 25 yards then how far off would I be at 50 yards and where does my range intersect ?? I followed your 20 yard advice on pellets and worked great so I wanted your imput on this one !! Thanks so much in advance !!
It didn’t take that many shots to identify a problem, and BB’s testing the new part 500 rounds. Had the MIM part worked flawlessly for the first 500 rounds, which quite a few probably do, BB would never have had reason to notice it. The manufacturer reduced costs, both in fabrication (MIM) and labor (QC) and passed the savings on to the consumer. Unfortunately, BB got a lemon. His chances with a non-MIM gun with higher QC costs are better, but he could still get a lemon there. At any rate, it would be unwise to trust a semi for self-defence w/o extensive testing and rigorous maintenance.
BB is out today. He’ll be back Monday.
Even BB can’t answer this question without knowing how high the scope is above the boreline. There are various calculation programs which could calculate trajectories for you.
I gave up and sold most of my Colt 1911s and replaced them with Glocks. I kept an old original Clark made back before Clark became a big builder. I also kept a sweet Colt 22 conversion kit that someone had blueprinted.
I have never had a jamb with any of my Glocks. All guns should come from the factory that way.
We’re having a violent agreement… 😉
I understand the manufacturing cost trade off. Still I’m awed by BB’s commitment to thoroughly test the pistol before he was willing to commit to use it for self defense. BB’s and Edith’s commitment to training is also admirable. How many idiots buy a gun for “self defense,” throw it in a drawer and don’t practice with it?
Agreed that BB found problem before 500 shots, but he wanted 500 flawless rounds through gun. The point is that suppose you shoot 250 rounds with a 2nd MIM extractor, then it jams. Now you start again with a 3rd extractor. Yuck. That’s a lot of time and money to shoot test rounds to have gun jam and lose confidence in it.
I worked in a manufacturing plant. “Quality Control” isn’t about separating the good parts from the bad parts! It is about making good parts all the time.
All in all, my comments were intended to be in admiration of BB’s commitment to testing, training, and maintenance that dinging the gun. BB and Edith are obviously doing their part.
As Herb points out, the calculation of optimum point blank zero is widely available on the web. Probably the best is at Air Rifle Links and Demos’ OPBZ calculator page. It has a very good demonstration of what is going on along with visual references to the terminology. If you click on ‘OPBZ Math’ link, it will bring up a calculator where you can try out the various setups for your particular gun. The folks who put on the Little Rock Airgun Expo also have a more bare-bones calculator page that works just as well.
You will need to know the ballistic coefficient for you bullet to get the most accurate reading, but it’s not strictly necessary.
If you’d like even more detailed tractory calculations, you might try Online Exterior Ballistics Computer. It’s truly fascinating.
By the way, these types of calculations are definitely part of the world of firearms, but you don’t need to be as precise in that world as you do in the airgun arena because of their superior ballistic coefficients. It’s one of the hidden benefits of airguns in that you have to learn about this stuff to do it even moderately well.
Best of luck,
thanks for the links..
Just wanted to say thank you also for those links !! That is a huge help to me !!
This sounds just like my B30. Basically a very sound gun that just needed one more round of servicing–which I left to someone else.
I’m glad you got your Wilson back. My SW1911 has gone through about 300 rounds with no failures except for one operator-induced one.
woguph, I’m always interested to hear about Glocks, and another testimony to their reliability is noted. How is the accuracy compared to the 1911s? I would be interested in anyone who has had experience with the HK USP which is supposed to be a very close civilian copy of the SOCOM pistol. I figure that any pistol that won a special forces contract must be pretty good.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the Hatsan mod 85 and mod 125? Im also wondering if the 125 is the same gun as the walther talon.
No disagreement intended…just trying to make my position clear that MIM is not inherently evil:). I would buy the better quality replacement part, also, or send it off to the factory.
While it’s great to have your gun fly out of the gate running, you have to remember that most guns do require a break-in period to get the moving parts to wear in a seat properly. Even high end 1911’s from respected makers (custom makers included) state this in their manuals. You wouldn’t buy a new car and drive it off the line burying the tachometer in the red without breaking in the motor first.
While I have heard nothing but good things about Glocks for the most part, I still would not carry it nor bet my life on it until I ran several hundred rounds of the ammo I intend to use through the weapon. It may be expensive and time consuming, but you will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it works when you need it.
Once, years ago, I carried a .380 known for it’s excellent build quality and reputed by several to digest any type of ammo. I kept it loaded with HP ammo for carry, but I only practiced with hard ball. I thought that the HP was too expensive to run at least 200 rounds through, besides, everyone said HP’s would work fine in it. Anyway, one day at the range I decided to try out the HP ammo I was using. Out of 10 shots, I had 7 jams. If I needed to use it I would have been screwed. Lesson learned.
just my opinion on the matter.
Al in CT
Al in CT,
B.B. is still out of town, but I wanted to comment on something you said. We DID shoot the Taurus to break it in. But there was a bigger problem…it had so many jams that it was impossible to shoot a significant number of rounds to do a proper break-in. In fact, the gun is notorious for the problems we experienced, and so it’s not an issue of proper break-in. It’s a manufacturing issue that makes a break-in virtually impossible.
Edith (Mrs. B.B.)
I wasn’t cutting on you or BB, I was responding to another post and one that admittedly, I read wrong 🙂
Your husband BB must be a patient man to deal with all that on the Taurus (or just flat out dedicated to teaching us). Right before I purchased my CZ this weekend, I traded in another pistol for a used Tanfoglio TZ75, which is a clone of the CZ75 pistol (the one I now have). This will somewhat mirror what the both of you have gone through as that Taurus is a clone.
The TZ would had two problems that I just couldn’t deal with. 1) It would fail to feed(sometimes even fail to extract) 1 out every magazine I fed it— and that was just plain hard ball. 2) When I would insert a loaded magazine into the the pistol, the slide would close without me depressing the slide release(bad slide stop). I couldn’t get past it and returned it to my FFL and they let me use what I had in it towards another purchase.
Al in CT
Al in CT,
No problem! I thought you might not be aware of the whole ordeal B.B. had been through. I never know if a blog reader has read the previous entries related to a topic, so I didn’t want to take it for granted that you had.
Edith (Mrs. B.B)
My take on defensive weapons is to keep it simple. I therefore use only revolvers–snub-nosed revolvers–for that. NO JAMS. If you get a misfire, pull the trigger again.
I have had and still have some semi-autos from Taurus, S&W, Colt, Ruger, Makarov, Hi Standard, and Beretta. The ONLY ONE that I never had a jam from is the Makarov (.380), probably because I haven't shot it enough.
The only thing I trust semi-autos for is target practice, & that is because your life isn't on the line. I used to shoot bull's-eye every Saturday, and I never shot a full course where someone didn't have an alibi.
I carry a concealed weapon (I have a permit) when I ride any of my bikes because I was assaulted in 2001 during a ride and wound up in IC for a week. The weapon I carry is a S&W SS Bodyguard .38. I trust it implicitly, without qualms that it won't work.
Very interesting. I love revolvers, but autos are "my thing". My S&W Sigma .40VE has gone through 1600 jam free rounds, 15rnds of .40sw for only $275. Also, remember the 12,000rnd test of the then new SR9. My only question about someones duties about conceal and carry are…If someone else is harassed at a range farther than 15 yards, should you pick a careful and clear shot, show you CCW permit and pistol, or should you get in close and risk being shot.
Shadow express dude
I forgot to ask, the GI styled RIA 1911 .38super leaves a huge tare in the mouth of the spent case. Any ideas how to fix this, is this normal.
Shadow express dude
David – Usually depends on a few factors. I like to use around 20 yards for my Ruger 10/22. It shoots nice from 10 to 70 yards and a nice “flat” spot from 25 to 50 yards.
This is what I’ve used for balistic calculators and it’s turns up pretty close.
Best thing to do is experiment. It’s fun and the ammo is affordable.
How about putting in the old magazine and MIM extractor, sending the gun to Taurus, and seeing how well they work it out?
Thank you for that link and when Bobby gave me the last link it was also one that helped the most. I see what you mean about the flat spot between 25 and 50 yards because trajectory only shows about .02 ” rise at 50 when zeroed at 25. My wife just got me my third 10/22 for Christmas and I have had cabin fever and can’t wait to shoot with the cold weather so I am breaking down and going to an indoor range tomorrow and was hoping 25 yards would be o.k. to zero at !! Just replaced barrel with Butler Creek bull barrel and new Boyd’s stock and it hurts too much to just look at it anymore without shooting !!
Here is a very belated thank you for answering my Crosman 622 question. Thanks for answering even though you don’t have one!
Carter, I believe you are correct in that the Walther and the Hatsan 125 are essentially the same gun. I believe the Hatsan 85 and the Daisy Powerline 1000X are also equivalent.
I’ve only had experience with the Daisy, and while the ones I’ve had have been very powerful and accurate they are also very harsh, crude, and quality is so-so. Hate to say it, but I wouldn’t really recommend one.
I like my Charter Arms .44 Special Bulldog five shot revolver.The least reliable gun I ever owned was a Colt Government .380.Feed problems galore.I still have that piece of crap.I have a couple of Colt .45 ACPs that are great guns.
Another interesting read.
Just read yesterdays blog today. Wonderfully done. Like your writing style. It has a Tolkein like quality.
The story just rambles along like a brook bound for the river – where you know more adventures will be found.
I do not have a Chrony, but I do know I have a problem, a big one at that.
Again with the story of the Gamo Whisper (.177 steel spring). First it was the loose screws (that was my fault). Then it is the bearing capacity failure of the hole for the scope pin in the aluminnum rail.
Now it is something more sinister. I noticed that the time to impact at 50 yds and 100 yds got much longer than it was initially(and the POI much lower). I tested at home and figured that the rile has lost maybe 30-50% of the energy it had when I bought it 3-4 weeks ago. Counting carefully, I figure I have yet to shoot 2,000 rounds, maybe much less than that.
Tonight, I cleaned the bore and I think I did a good job. It looked pretty dirty, but then what do I know?
Shot again after cleaning it and the velocity “seemed” to increase, but the rifle was still not as powerful as when new. The 30-50% power loss figure is based on a comparison of penetration in different materials and objects, including soup cans, wood, etc.
I know these are not the best materials for this, but I did have to use the same type of objects and materials I had already shot for comparison.
If I put my hand near the receiver when firing, I feel a slight “breeze”. In other words, if the seal is leaking, I cannot hear it or see it clearly, but there is definitely some air escaping (is this natural? aren’t all seals somewhat imperfect?). I looked at the seal (around the receiver, is this the right name?) and did not see evident scratches or tears
What is happening? someone please help. Of course, I fear the seals are broken (maybe the store had dry-fired it many times?). Maybe the spring is toast? Unlikely, right?
I also need advice. Mind you, this is my second Whisper after I returned the first one to the store. Should I just return it and get another brand/type of rifle? I wanted a rifle in the $200-$300 range before I commit to something more expensive.
As you may understand, this is really frustrating as I have not had the chance to enjoy shooting as it should be enjoyed due to issues here and there with the Whisper. It is even worse because I really like the rifle and want everything to work out.
Sorry to burden anyone with this but I really think this blog is really useful and it is the only one I trust in airguns.
Thank you very much!
T. E., you are running into a common problem – trying to quantify a problem without being able to quantify the problem. If airgunning is really gonna turn into something of a hobby for you, it might be good to get a chrony. That’d put cold, hard numbers to the gun’s performance, and you’ll be able to really nail down the real deterioration in the gun’s performance.
If your gun really is tanking as badly as it seems to be I suspect the spring. Gamo springs are not known to be the best in the world, and failure in 2000 shots is not unheard of. The breech seal might be leaking a bit (not uncommon), but unless it fell out I doubt it would have deteriorated that badly that quickly.
Unfortunately the only way to really figure it out is to chrony it and tear into it – not terribly difficult. You could also just figure on doing an ‘upgrade’ using an aftermarket spring/guide kit (such as the one sold by Rich in Mich) and a new seal.
There are a number of guys who could do this for you (myself included), but it’d be up to you as to whether or not you’d want to spend the money.
I used to shoot a lot of commercial hardball, but the price kept ratcheting up. Now I almost never shoot a factory load. I cast my own 200-grain lead flat-point bullets and load them with a charge of Titegroup.
They are on the low side of standard. They recoil a little less but are extremely accurate. And with low recoil I can do double-taps quickly.
I don’t use hollowpoints in the ,45 because there is no need. The .45 bullet is a proven manstopper. When I use smaller-caliber bullets for defense I do use hollowpoints, and my Makarov loves them. That’s ine pistol that hasn’t malfunctioned in over 2,000 rounds. If it had more punch I would use it more, but I do sometimes carry it in a well-concealed holster.
I’d be pretty soured on the Gamo’s by now, and the cost is such that I can’t see any point to messing with another one, unless you dream of being an airgun smith. Return it and get an RWS 34 or something else; you may have problems with anything different, too, but at least they’ll be fresh problems:).
Thanks for the insight. Makes sense.
We’re fortunate that Colorado and Texas allow concealed carry. Had a sig p220. Sold it since I prefer a browning .380. Lighter, more firepower and with hollow points at the close ranges conceal carry probably lends itself to just as effective. Since the rebuild the .380 is as reliable as the p220 which was a fine gun.
A few more questions still on topic. You obviously have very good taste since you own a CQB with the light rail mod. Have you ever tried the starburst grips? Like them? Hate them?
I don’t know enough about fabrication and performance to say this with certainty, but from my reading I believe the MIM extractor may not have the springy-ness that a good 1911 extractor needs to have. It may be more of a “dead” part–strong enough to do the job, but without the snap that pops the extractor claw into the cartridge extractor groove during feeding.
Again I am guessing that the need for spring in a 1911 extractor is low, so many of the Taurus extractors do a fine job and the problems are not that great. But they are all marginal, and sometimes they can cause problems like I had.
I am also guessing that a forged extractor like the Wilson Combat part I replaced the Taurus extractor with is so far up the scale of reliability that it seemingly fixes all problems. It’s probably over-built, but I have always liked that in a defense gun.
Those are all my suppositions.
I haven’t tried the starburst grips, but I’d like to. They are very pricey as you know, but I have a mismatched set on the gun now and so I could justify getting a new pair. If I do I will be sure to tell you.
Don’t buy them just yet.
I was scrummaging around my older gun safe the other day for some 16 gauge shells. Don’t shoot 16 gauge anymore. Sent them all to Wayne (including some antique 16 gauge paper shells!!!). Found a box of unmounted grips that I traded for. Only needed 3 pairs of grips so put the rest away and forgot about them. One of the sets is black, has a “Wilson” button in the middle and a handwritten “hangy” tag says “cqb starburst”. Would these fit your gun? Are there other numbers to look for?
What can I offer you? Those grips would be a blessing to my Wilson.
Thank you for your comments.
I did quantify the problem, albeit not directly through penetration comparisons and pellet drop. I am pretty sure it has lost as much as 30% power at the very least.
Wow! I would have never thought a spring could fail so quick in a new gun. However, I agree that it is not likely that the seals have caused this much degradation in power.
Are there any other potential reasons this could be happening? Something silly perhaps, that I may have overlooked?
I will be heading back to the store in about two hours. Need to decide whether to get another Gamo or just follow your advice and get the RWS34 Panther
The hangy tag is not a store tag. I’m guessing the guy I traded with put it on there. I didn’t ask him anything about these grips since they just came along with the other grips that I wanted. I’m not familiar enough with your gun to know if these will fit.
Are you sure they will fit?
If they will, you still have a lot of credit with my “store”.
Did you get the Remington recoil-auto running good? Just curious.
I’m still curious about the extractor. If the design and materials are faulty, that is a big problem. If you simply got a lemon (maybe fitting or assembly error also affecting extractor), its just one of those things. I know you’re usually in the “you get what you pay for” camp, but $600 is enough money that I at least would expect reliability by design (even if execution is spotty), and for it I would give up a ton of features.
To Anonymous who asked about showing my permit, etc: My comments were merely to add my two cents to the discussion. I don’t deal in “hypotheticals.”
Everyone must make his own decision regarding which gun to trust with his life.
Here’s an experience that I had with a Colt Jr (.25 cal): I got the gun brand new from a gun shop and carried it concealed for over a year before actually shooting it, although I did dry-fire it numerous times. When I actually shot it, it fired one round and fed the next one, but wouldn’t fire it.
I pulled the left grip off the gun and discovered that the two-piece linkage from the trigger to the firing mechanism had been improperly manufactured and had become disengaged. I had the gun repaired (out of warranty), but even though it worked afterward I never trusted it, and finally sold it.
Lesson learned, not forgotten. –Witt
I don´t understand! Why do you need a defence gun? Just wondering as I don´t live in the US.
If the need for a defensive weapon has to be explained to you then you probably don’t need one.I’m not being rude by the way, that’s just my experience.
I can’t give you a definite answer but I will give my opinion.
Most people who carry think it’s better to have a weapon and not need it than to need it and not have it.
In the area where I live I find that most of us have 2 reasons to carry.#1 is animals,in our area we are close enough to the woods and unsettled waterways that wild dogs poisonous snakes etc.frequently show up in our yards.occasionally even inside our homes.Walking, hiking, camping, fishing etc.almost guarantees an encounter,although usually just a sighting.
#2 is criminals.I personally would prefer to frighten,maim or even kill if I believed it was necessary to stop someone from harming family friends or self for any reason!That’s just my belief but I think It’s shared by a large group of citizens and law enforcement here.
Sorry for the long rant but this is something I feel strongly about.
Here in the USA we believe freedom is not free. It must be constantly monitored and occasionally forcefully preserved.
If the people are unarmed forceful preservation is a bit more difficult. And that explains why we fight so hard to keep our freedom to own firearms. It is to protect ourselves, our family, and our country.
Now about reason for personal protection. Some people carry quite a bit of case for legal trade. My brother for example buys factory surplus paint and hammers and well practically anything. He needs to carry $10,000 in cash sometimes because it is a cash and carry business. People like him are robber targets – so he legally carries a firearm to detour would be robbers.
Recently, I changed my neighbor’s Gamo Whisper Deluxe factory trigger blade to a Charlie Da Tuna GRTIII trigger… By experience, since I own two Gamo’s (both with the modification), I know that the rifle’s perforamnce and accuracy increases by far… But my neighbor complains that he has lost accuracy with it… Could it be that I somehow installed it wrong??? Does that simple modification, which has nothing to do with the firing mechanism, affect accuracy negatively??? Or could it be that he uses Daisy .177 pointed pellets??? Take care..
If the tag is correct the grips will fit. All 1911 grips are standard, and the Wilson CQB is a standard 1911. All CQBs are the same, so these should fit.
They look like 1911’s. Wouldn’t fit my highpower. Maybe you can make them work.
I know the address. Coming at ya.
I would suspect a dirty barrel for the lack of accuracy. It’s cumulative, but it can suddenly become worse in a short time.
Clean that barrel with a brass brush and JB Non-Embedding Bore Clean ing Compound.
Those pellets are no good, either. Get some Crosman Premiers or JSB Exacts. Assuming a .177 caliber, get 7.9-grain Premiers or 8.4-grain JSB domes.
One thing is certain–changing the trigger did not change the accuracy of the rifle.
The “DESIGN” of the Taurus extractor is exactly what John Moses Browning made it to be. It isn’t faulty.
The materials (or in this case, the process used for manufacture) may not be faulty, but, if for this application (1911 extractor) it gives marginal performance, and if my pistol needed more than that, then it were not the best choice, from an operational standpoint.
I’m not impugning the Taurus extractor. I’m simply noting that the one in my gun was faulty and the fix was simple. Given what I now have had to learn about 1911 extractors, I think I would always replace a MIM extractor with one made from forged steel.
A mainspring can break just that fast. I have seen it several times.
But Vince has taught me that the breech seal can fail just vas suddenly with almost the same results.
As long as you can handle this as a warranty issue, that’s what I would do. And then I’d think twice before going the same route twice.
The only other solution is an even better one, which is to have a gas spring installed in your gun. Please read this:
As for the scope rail–yes, Gamo did screw it up. The aluminum is soft and does deform under recoil. The UTG scope base with no droop would take care of that.:
Dented case mouths is a sign of extractor problems. Torn case mouths could be something more severe–I don’t know.
Send it back to Taurus? Not after I got it working this great. I’m not interested in whether Taurus knows their own gun, which I expect they do. I would just have to remove the new MIM extractor they install and replace it when I get it back.
Besides, in an earlier blog I mentioned that I stoned the extractor they sent to remove a burr, so the gun it out of warranty, anyway.
I also carry a S&W model 37 snubby. But when I need the best defense I reach for the 1911. It's the best at stopping men, until you get up into the .44 magnum class.
And a question for you, do you feel safer not having the right to carry?
I guess you could call the 1911 design well proven:). You know what I meant:).
Thank you very much for the comments and your help.
I just returned the Whisper and, for convenience, got another Whisper. I feel that after these several issues, I know the gun very well and consider the time spent in trying to figure the bugs out as an investment…always trying to be positive
I will though go down the path suggested by BB and get the UTG mount.
Max, Nobody really needs to carry a gun. I have never heard of anyone needing one or knowing of anyone needing one, and I live in a big city. It just tells you that these people feel weak or helpless around others, that’s all.
You’re either naive or live in a vacuum.
You just stepped over the line with your antagonizing rhetoric.
If you’ve never heard of someone needing a gun at a moments notice or you feel that these people that carry concealed feel weak or helpless let me enlighten you.
I’ve been a member of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado since its’ inception. I left service 20 minutes before Mathew Murray arrived on that fateful day. Two very good friends and missionaries that we supported for years are now dead because I believe that if I would have still been there I could have changed the outcome since I always carry a weapon. Since you live in a vacuum please read this:
There is more information on the massacre if you have any interest in enlightening yourself.
Ever hear of the Columbine High School massacre? That took place ten minutes from my home. I donated the office space for the two years of counseling that was necessary for many Columbine survivors. You can also google Columbine massacre to find many passionate opinions about how different the outcome could have been if one person in the school would have been armed (read: carried a concealed weapon with legal permit).
It would be helpful to all concerned if you would become informed before generalizing about a very important issue.
I would also appreciate it if you would think, just a little bit, before you make a comment that is so offensive to so many people.
You want to verify any of this you can see me on the membership roster of New Life and I was an equity partner of Dumamis ownership in the Ascot Dinner Theatre property at 9136 West Bowles Avenue, Littleton, Colorado 80123 where the counseling offices were donated for the Columbine High School survivors.
Wos, it depends on what you mean by ‘need’. I guess neither cops nor soldiers need to carry guns as long as they’re trained in the self-esteem techniques they’ll need to command respect and obedience from rapists, murderers, thieves, suicidals and others bent on their destruction.
Whether or not you personally would prefer to carry or not is up to you. But I suspect you live a very sheltered life if you honestly think that private citizens have no legitimate need for self defense. Living in a ‘big city’ doesn’t necessarily count, as there are plenty of upscale and exclusive neighborhoods in big cities that are very well protected… places that doctors and lawyers can afford, but that the bulk of us cannot.
I sure wish I had a sidearm when a pitbull came after me in my own yard. Fortunately I was near my shed and able to quickly lay my hands on a hatchet and a pipe to ward him off (barely). But if my little girl happened to be outside I don’t know what might have happened…
Wos- once again you appear with your shallow and offensive thoughts. Having been a police officer in a very populated city for twenty years, I can tell you right now that your opinion is wrong. I have personally seen dozens of burglaries, assualts, kidnappings, and murder attempts stopped by armed civilians with concealed carried permits.
After reading your deliberately offensive comments,
I’m sure that you are the kind of person who does not want
people to have the legal means to protect themselves.
Obviously you are the type to take advantage of someone
you perceive as being weaker.Naturally this would make you against
legal self defense as it would take away any advantage you may think you have.
One thing that makes this obvious is your need to come here where
most of the people are friendly helpful and nice to each other and make rude remarks.
You seem to think those kinds of people are weak and wont respond
so you can feel superior.
Maybe you should try being like the more influential people on here.
Then you could really feel good about yourself with valid reasons.
I’m off my soapbox now
Max & Wos could be the same person. Just a left wing wacko playing a dirty trick. Ignore such dribble.
Max Wos doubt your going to read this because most likely your mommy will not let you stay up this late.
Back to the weekend fun
BB and all what gets your vote for the most 1911 like feel and balance in a pellet pistol.
I don't mean blowback or recoil
because I don't think even a good springer could feel like a .45s recoil.I just mean fit and comfort,not even looks necessarily.
Aside from certain revolvers the 1911s and F&N hi-powers(basically the same feel)have the best fit in my short fat hands.
How about deleting the posts by Max, Wos, JTinAL, and DB concering RTC?
This is not a political blog and does not need this stuff. Delete this on too.
Mr & Mrs Gaylord,
You certainly don't need my permission to delete the remarks I made in response to Wos. but if you decide that the entire thread should be obliterated I wholeheartedly embrace and encourage that my posts be deleted as well.
Yes, I did get the Rem 11 sportsmaster semi-auto 16ga shotgun working from the link you guys gave me.. It’s set for 1 oz loads now, and works perfect…not a jamb at all in 125 shells and the speed it can shoot the second and third shots is amazing!!..
I even hit a few clays with all those shots!!! ( maybe 40%)
Kevin just sent me more shells to try, (thanks again, bro!!) I’m going to have to set it for a heavier load for most of them..
Browning was really on it with this design.. wasn’t it about 1890? Using the recoil to advance the next shell, while absorbing some of it, to reduce recoil for the shooter… very cool..
I also found a Browning 12ga auto-5 at the same place I’m having the Browning Citori 12ga sent, (having bought/traded for it on Gunbroker)..
So, I’m going to be in shotgun heaven soon..
Speaking of side arms.. I really like the Ruger .357 mag Blackhawk revolver.. shooting the win .38 special target loads today… I was nailing the 1/2 clays left from shotgunning at 25 yards and even out to 50 yards now and then, and coming real close most of the time.. that’s a real sweet pistol..
I’m definitely going to “carry” that one when hunting now… how does a .357 mag compare with a 30/30 for foot pounds to 50 yards?
Quickly offhand, I might do as well as the 30/30 336 open sighted.. I might get a scope on the savage 99F in .308 and carry the .357 blackhawk sidearm..
OH, this is too much fun.. exploding clays!! shotguns, pistols or the little chips at 75-100 yards with the marlin 60 and remington .22lrs and scopes.. then, back to the pool room for air rifles at night..
Life is Good!!
Ashland Air Rifle Range
What .22 LR do you have?
I been getting quite a few oldies..
My dads’ 1950s’ Remington semi-auto with no scope rail.
One just like it, but in bolt action, with a scope rail… the “sportsmans” target version..
Winchester 69 with 5 shot clip, and a 60A with the finger grips in the forearm.. and I think it’s a 67 down low in the pile..
Two, almost new marlin 60 semi-auto.. these guys are very accurate from a rest.. picking off empty shotgun shells at 75 yards, with the 4-16x50AO leapers.. a great buy for under $175!! (without scope of course)
And a cool very old little win 02 single shot with the neat curly trigger guard..
Just also got a tiny “Chimpmunk”.. designed and built right here in southern Oregon.. by the Rouge Rifle co. Prospect, OR. they have sold out now.. built back east somewhere now… but I’ve got one of the originals in a super nice walnut stock!!
Ashland Air Rifle Range
All-I guess I forgot what this blog is all about.If it does get deleted
or even just my comments I’ll be sure and do better.
Wayne a lot of good info on firearms
at this site,even some tables and charts that can help with some decisions about matching game with caliber.also caliber vs. recoil vs.
trajectory.hope it helps http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2d.rifles.htm
Its nice to hear the model 11 is working well. I think you made a good deal on that one.
I’m not really familiar with handguns, especially for hunting. The muzzle energy of a 357 is roughly equal to a .30-30 at about 350+ yards, so I’m guessing at 50 yards it won’t even be close, but that may not be an argument against using it on deer at reasonable ranges, especially as you seem to be shooting it very accurately.
You really ought to check out Chuck Hawk’s site as JT recommends. He’s a knowledgable hunter with all types of gear, including handguns (and he uses airguns for target practice at least), and he might actually be your neighbor, too.
Here’s something I ran across in the CMP newsletter:
National Match Air Rifle features two courses of fire similar to the highpower rifle standing and John C. Garand courses of fire. It is shot on reduced highpower 200 and 600-yard targets on 10-meter ranges with air rifles. Provisional rules provide for three rifle classes, sporter, match/precision and AR-type air rifles. The CMP invites both experienced highpower shooters and recreational air gun shooters to try the 14 March test match to learn more about this new rifle discipline and provide feedback to help finalize the rules. The CMP has produced 10-bull paper AR-SR and AR-MR targets that will be used in this match and will be available to shooting clubs. Industry prototype AR style air rifles from Pilkington Competition Equipment and Creedmoor-Anschütz will be available for examination and testing at the match.
Are these AR style air rifles the ones you reported on from the blog?
Kevin, let us know when you get your PCP. It should be any day now. Any hints on what model it will be? It can’t be the Marauder which is not out yet. I don’t see you as a pure 10m type shooter. So, I’m guessing either the Air Force rifles or the S410 because Wayne has gotten to you. I guess the Korean rifles are possibility, but I’m ruling them out.
I have been watching Woz and Max. I don’t think they are the same person.
Max has behaved well and not stepped over the line, as far as I can see. He has asked some questions that appear to Americans to be goading, but I have traveled in Europe and met people who thought their countries were safe, as he appears to. They really don’t understand the concept of a person taking responsibility for his own safety. This stems from a long history of relying on the government for all protection. It’s a facade at best, but they do believe it.
Woz, on the other hand, is a provocateur. He exhibits the type of personality that has polluted many of the airgun forums. He may or may not be a shooter, but I don’t think it matters one way or the other, because he never contributes to the active conversation. He is the type of person that caused Edith and me to shut down The Airgun Forum in 2002.
So I will eliminate all postings by Woz in the future, unless they further the discussion and do not provoke. I left this one up to see what the reaction would be, and you all did very well.
There is a mental condition (I think it is an illness, but doctors might disagree) that causes people to provoke group discussions in this way. You often find such people drawn into politics, because they feel the need to “stir the pot,” as they call it, and the political arena is a great place for that. I have become fairly adept at spotting this kind of personality, so when we built this blog I put in the controls to deal with it. There have been two attempts at hijacking this blog in the four years we have been operation (as of today), and both were stopped immediately.
Woz has had all the rope he’s going to get. So in the future his barbed remarks will be eliminated, as well as any responses that have been posted.
Thank you for maintaining a civil demeanor as you responded to Woz’s barbs. I’m sure that was not what he wanted you to do.
The Beeman P1/HW 45 is the most 1911-like air pistol I know. Even the grip scales from a 1911 will fit on the gun.
I recommend a P1 to every 1911 shooter for practice. Although the P1 has a much better trigger than a 1911 and is more accurate to 50 feet, it still provides great training benefit.
I enjoy seeing what has happened to you on this blog. We all watched you go from a causal airgunner into a raging shooter in about one year. Now you can’t get enough, which reassures the rest of us that we are not crazy–or if we are, we just made another convert.
Welcome to the wonderful world of shooting!
Your old Remington .22 autoloader–is it a 552, by any chance? That was the first firearm I owned and I cut my teeth on it. It has the ability to function with shorts, longs or long rifles, which was rare back in the days when it was new.
A question about your Remington model 11. I have heard that this design is a hard-kicking one, though I can’t believe that it is. It’s recoil-operated, which should absorb most of the impulse. But what do you think? I can buy a 12 gauge model 11 in excellent condition for about $250, which is why I ask.
Kevin and others, is the model 11/Browning Auto 5 a harder kicker than a gas-operated shotgun like say an 1100 or a Winchester 1400? I’m CONSIDERING getting away from pumps so that Edith can shoot shotguns, too.
Finally, Wayne, let me pour some gasoline on the fire by recommending a few things for you to experience. First, try an M1 Carbine if you get the chance. The round isn’t suitable for much of anything, but the little gun is just too darn fun to ignore. When you learn the whole story of its development and how even today it is nearly impossible to build a gun that powerful and yet compact and light, I think you’ll be amazed.
Second, and this is a dirty trick, try an SKS. You will discover the most enjoyable experience anyone can have standing up! And this rifle is the true survivor. It will still be here when the cockroaches rule the planet.
Third, try a 1911 pistol. This one is more risky, because there are good ones and bad ones. If I had you here in Texas I could show you a good one, but if you can get to try a good one in Oregon, I think you will be surprised!
Finally, we need to get you into reloading, because even you aren’t going to be able to afford all the ammo you’re going to want to shoot. When the urge to reload strikes, please call.
Yes, the course of fire you quoted is from the initiative Scott Pilkington has been crusading for. He is the guy who developed the rifle for it. He is pictured with his rifle in the SHOT Show report this year.
I've been travelling, but finally found the final report on the Infinity. I agree, it will make a fine critter-hunter and am plotting against some troublesome rodentia as soon as winter breaks, now I can just order some EunJins and get ready.
Someone asked about energy – on high power, mine throws the first 6-shot clip of EunJins all above 900FPS, starting at 937, so that's 6 shots > 51ft lbs, with a high of 55.
I have another question, now that I'm addicted to PCPs, having acquired a free one and so have my initial "budget" still available:
Do you know what happened to Logun S-16. Seems PA no longer carries it, and the UK-advertised 16-EVO is a low-powered successor?
I was thinking this would make a fine second add – good power, repeater, ultra-quiet. I was thinking it would be good to clear out the crows and starlings.
If you trust me, wait!
I have the Benjamin Marauder for testing, and after just a single clip I know this is the rifle you and everyone else will want. It has more of everything that S-16 has, except for weight.
I have promised Crosman that I won’t report on this rifle until we know for sure the initial roll-out date, but it is on-track at this time and should be here in May. If that date holds, I will start blogging it next month.
Pyramyd dropped the S-16 a year ago. I don’t know why, excerpt the one I tested didn’t live up to most of its hype. It was NOT ultra-quiet!
Please read the report on the CO2 version. It reveals much of the gun’s design:
I hope you can wait.
Wack your whistle pigs square in the side of the head between the eye and the ear. If you don’t mind having them crawl down the hole to die, then give them a heart/lung shot, but avoid hitting the front leg.
I have a rws 34 (.177) and am wondering which type of pellet anyone would suggest for target practice. Thanks for the help.
Gas operated semi’s have a much better reputation for recoil reduction, although its hard to see how that could really be true. Here’s an article you might find interesting (and Wayne, too):
To Matt61 from Chuck in Bonaire: You are correct. Scuba tanks, scuba tanks everywhere but not a gun to fill. Lots of lizards and little black mosquitoes as quick as house flies.
I’m stuck in Atlanta right now trying to get home but it’s snowing huge flakes right now and my flight is in jeopardy. Atlanta’s snow of the century with my luck. The baggage handlers were so slow yesterday that my flight left without me. Took them over an hour to unload the plane. A lot of missed connections.
That was just cruel. Hint at how nice the Marauder is and then hit us with a month or more to wait. That is just not right man… seriously.
Back in December my chono budget was redirected to rifle category. But not that my Disco is shooting nice… I can wait calmly.
Oh poo. Correction. Wanted to say NOW that my Disco is shooting nice. Edit feature would be great.
My dads old Remingtion semi-auto that does shoot short, long and long rifle is… drum roll… the 550-1
No scope rail just real nice open sights.. when my eyes were better, I could pick off shotgun shells at 40 yards with it.. it’s accurate.. but not me anymore.. I hardly shoot it anymore, with all the other guns I’ve got now.. I like to let her retire now.. just a few shots now and then..
You know my fear, (unfounded) of recoil.. that’s why I tried the Rem 11 in 16ga.. and the price and looks were hard to pass on.. Check carefully the forearm piece, they get cracked easy, they are very thin wood.. they were both cracked on the 16 ga and the the 12ga Browning auto-5, I haven’t picked up yet..
On the Rem 11 I just glued the inside with super glue, layer after layer and an extra layer at the edge where it bangs against the metal.. It’s been real strong since, even after those 125 shots..
I can barely see the cracks now..
As far as recoil goes, it’s not like it’s not there, but it’s a lot less than say Josh’s 12ga Benelli(?spelling) pump.. not an issue for me anymore.. the speed of the second/third shot is amazing.. hard to believe it can cycle a shotgun shell that fast.. and I don’t have to remember to pump like on Josh’s gun.. second shots were real hard for me, when first learning.. now if I miss on the first shot.. the second has a real good chance still..
I can’t wait to try the 12ga auto-5..
I would go for it!! I’m sure Edith will love it and it’s a good collector too!!
Yes, it’s been a very fun year of learning about guns!!
Very happy and Wacky Wayne
RE: Gas recoil on shotgun
Believe me, there is a significant difference. Load two shells in gun. Shoot first then second. Since there is no third shell, the gas mechanism doesn’t totally work on the second shell. The bolt slams back and locks in the open position.
RE: Inappropriate blog comments
After having read your blog for a while, you have certainly given us all a lot of rope to discuss many different things. To a certain extent because the blog moves on the next day, the flame wars are somewhat automagically snuffed out. But if there is a discussion that you dislike, I’d say that your first choice is just to post saying no more on topic X. Those of us who are better behaved will simply stop and the antagonist will lose anyone to incite. With all of the off topic comments that get posted, no one could ever accuse you of being ham fisted with the delete button.
PS – Welcome back Jane!
I live in Sweden and have wolves,bears and boar in the area of my hunting cabin. With knowledge and respect of nature you don´t need a gun. As for protection of the country it is better to leave it to professionals (government+army etc.) They have done a splendid job as they have kept my country and its people out of war and for 200 years now. After centuries of fighting, we learned to mind our own business and let other countries mind theirs. As for the 1911 design, it is beautiful and think I´ll get one, but only a reliable one so it doesn´t jam on me when I get attacked by snowflakes 😉
Damn (darn?), I’m gone from the blog for 3 days and everything starts to go haywire. Glad BB has stepped in to put it back on the straight and narrow!
CJr. – I was in Atlanta Wednesday to Friday and toured the airport for 6 hours before my flight finally took off! What a coincidence.
Vince – one of the folks I do business with in Atlanta, has an RWS that his father gave him some 30 years ago. As a kid, he left it out in the rain. It still fires (and from his description, is detonating) but he’d like it refinished, including the stock. If you can and want to do work like this, let me know and I’ll give him your Yahoo address. If you’d prefer not, and I invite everyone on this, any recommendations for an airgunsmith? I hope to find out what model he has tomorrow.
I love airguns and firearms but I’m one of those folks who don’t carry and don’t feel a need. Of course, this doesn’t extend to protecting my home where my Mossberg Pump is always handy.I was very amused when the folks in Atlanta, especially one or two women, started discussing their concealed carry permits and what weapons they prefer (Caltek .32 was a favorite).
Next, I invite all who have an opinion (uh, oh) to voice it. My son has applied for his firearms permit and wants to buy a handgun. I’ve told him my opinion for a first firearm – a .22 revolver with interchangeable cylinders so he can shoot .22 longs and .22 mags. and learn to shoot. Also, to buy some books and magazines and learn about shooting. Suggestions?
Finally, to Max, this country is like no other country in the world. It was founded with firearms and violence and our founding fathers wanted all citizens to be able to own firearms, if they chose. Like me, there are many who don’t feel the need to walk around with a defensive weapon but we do not prevent those that feel otherwise, not to and I will defend that right to the best of my abilities. We are a country of immigrants and not all of us have come with the best “manners”, for lack of a better word. We have organized crime problems, drug problems, gang problems (youth and otherwise) that, if you’re not educated on where you’re going, you can quickly get into a lot of trouble. Sometimes, as Kevin said, trouble can find you. Europe now is experiencing problems from an influx of criminals from the East, former Iron Curtain countries, I believe, so unfortunately, Europe is not immune from this escalating violence but you have to rely on the Government for protection. As the saying goes, when seconds count, the police are minutes away.
Good to be back.
RE: Conceal carry discussion
Let’s drop this off topic discussion. It is a hot topic that cannot be resolved in BB’s blog.
Let’s talk some more about airguns!
Re: Model 11/Browning A5 being a harder kicker than a Rem 1100 or Winchester 1400
I’m not a semi-auto long gun guy. My first gun (still have it) was a Rem .22 semi-auto tube fed that shoots .22 short, long or long rifle. Never had a problem. But I’ve seen semi-auto shotguns and semi-auto high powers jam and I never wanted the headache. I like double barrel shotguns. Just me.
I’m sure you have better advice available through shotgun news but I just got off the phone with Jack, an old hunting buddy of mine. Jack is the opposite of me. He’s always owned semi-auto’s and “wouldn’t carry two barrels in the field when one does just fine.” I asked Jack your questions in order to aid Mrs Gaylord. I’ll try to paraphrase our hour long conversation.
First, let me say that there are many things that can reduce recoil in a shotgun especially when I assume that Mrs Gaylord will primarily use the gun at the trap range. The most important in my experience is that the gun fits. Length of pull in a shotgun should be such that her strong thumb is 1-2″ from her nose. A good recoil pad should be installed as part of the fit. Correct butt angle also evenly displaces (perceived recoil reduction) recoil. Trap shooters will often cut the angle of the but at a 5-7 degree negative angle. Leading the stock is an old trick. Use light loads that aren’t noisy when she first starts shooting. A good commercial load is the winchester low noise-low recoil loads. Lengthening the forcing cone also reduces recoil. Most important is left for last. Shooting technique. I’ve seen new shooters walk away after only two shots because they didn’t stomp the front foot forward and put their weight on it, didn’t get the butt of the gun into the pocket of their shoulder and didn’t get their cheek down on the stock.
He’s owned both the model 11/browning A5 and Remington model 1100’s (and the successor model 11-87). The A5 “humpback” has a different action and is a heavier gun than the typical 1100. For these reasons he feels that the 1100 is a lessor recoiling gun. He doesn’t like the 1400’s. Both the A5 and 1100 have a long lineage. Well liked guns but each has their problems. Correct set up for shells isn’t hard but must be correct in order for the A5 to work. The 1100’s won’t shoot 2 3/4″ and 3″ shells interchangably (won’t eject them properly). Some trap shooters but a 3″ 1100 and shoot 2 3/4″ out of them so they jam intentionally which eliminates the need to bend down and pick up empty shells. The Remington model 1187 is the model 1100 with critical modifications. When introduced in 1987 the model 1187 came in 12 ga. only, had the rem-choke system, the extractor was widened (for improved shell ejection) and the gas and piston seal was made in stainless steel. The 1100’s O-ring seal fails regularly. Jacks vote is the model 11-87 classic trap with all 3 trap chokes. Yes, it’s a 12 gauge but with lighter loads it won’t kick as much as a 20 gauge.
My first pcp arrived late Thursday. Beautiful .22 cal AA S410 SL ERB with thumbhole walnut stock and adjustable butt pad. Yep, Wayne got to me. So did B.B. and many others. I still blame Wayne.
It’s been cold and windy here so I’ve only put about 200 shots through it. Had a brief issue with my pump (it’s fine now) and discovered significant barrel droop in this gun? Out of scope adjustment so another set of adjustable rings are on the way to replace the fixed rings on the s410. I’ve run two shot strings of 50 shots each over the chrony. One string at full power the other at half power all shots with a 15.9 grain at 75 feet (25 yards). Next chrony step is longer range, heavier pellet.
We’re still getting acquainted but first impressions are, nice looking gun, fits me well, shockingly quiet considering the power (still can’t believe the chrony numbers after just hearing a pfftt) and scary accurate. You can literally shoot flies with this thing at 75 feet. Pumping is a distraction not the overwhelming effort I mentally made it out to be. Oh, and with 5 fully loaded ten shot magazines sitting next to me on the shooting bench pellets disappear quickly. If I sound a little giddy like a school girl it’s because I am (giddy, not a school girl). More later.
Kevin & all,
Giddy is good!!
Do it often!! you'll live longer.. at lot longer, and have more fun on the way..
Choose giddy whenever possible.. and it is a choice.. just not always the easy to see choice.. but look closely.. it's still there!!
Excellent article! Now I understand those comments.
Thanks for that info on the shotgun! And the 550-1 (I guess mine was that, as well, is a great little rifle. But you already know that.
Thanks for taking the time to research that. I will probably look for an A5 or a model 11 in 20-gauge–our gauge of choice.
Thanks for the P1 info.Ive seen and heard about it a little bit on the net but never had a chance to handle one.I trust your advice on this one and after looking it up on PA. I read the reviews and your article on it,now it’s #1 on my pistol wishlist.
I’d like to second BB’s list of fun guns.With a side note on the SKS,it’s an inexpensive(rifle and ammo)mid range shooter.It does need some special attention though.
The reports on slamfires(discharging when the bolt closes)is not a myth.the firing pin can get jammed in the forward position,usually from dried packing grease or powder fowling gumming up the pin hole.This can cause the rifle to go full auto and empty the clip even if you release the trigger.The good news is the solution is simple:Cleaning and maintenance with proper lube.
By the way reloading is very cost effective(except for .22RF) but sometimes time consuming.
I had come to the conclusion to wait for the Marauder after noting the repeating feature, target trigger, shroud and choked barrel. There is just nothing else in the same price range that has all that. I am waiting now to see how well Crosman built it. I hope they can ramp up production faster than with the Discovery!
I don’t think you can go wrong with the 11,they are sweet shooters.
I have a very petite lady friend who wont touch my Navy Arms 2bbl.bird hunter any more but loves the 11 even with high brass shells.The double barrel has a sharper more pronounced recoil but it is quieter.The 11 has a longer slower more even recoil that proper stance tames easily.Since we already know Mrs. BB can handle the report and recoil of a .45 I bet she wont even flinch from a good autoloading shotty.especially with proper hearing protection.
Best wishes with your new fun gun and you really should try a 12 guage,they can be just as tame with proper loads and more versatile if needed.
Great, now that I’ve helped you once, I’m only about 999,999 good deeds in debt:).
I recommended that Chuck Hawks site to Matt a while back and seconded JT’s suggestion to Wayne last night, because it is one of the few sites on the internet where there’s even a slim chance of getting the real deal on hunting.
Maybe I feel that way because where I feel qualified to have an opinion, it often agrees with me:), but for someone that wants to hunt, its the place to start for no-nonsense information. EXCEPTION: Chuck Hawks does not enshrine the .30-06 in his heart. Obviously he’s got that issue:).
I found it about the same way I found this blog. I went over to my neighbor’s after hearing .30-06 fire (pretty common here) and asked if I could join him in sight-in. He said sure and showed me his selected “hunting” rifle: a Mannlicher-Schoenauer in .30-06. I didn’t covet it, but I definitely felt serious love for it:), and went online to research it that very evening, then Chuck’s site popped up.
I’m optimistic that he lives close to Wayne and they obviously share interests:).
Anonymous looking for practice pellets for the ’34…
My personal, generic answer is ‘Crosman Premier 7.9gr’. That’s sort of my standard pellet, and my Panther and regular 34 do well with them.
Some like the Superdomes, and while I’ve found that they shoot about as well at short ranges, they are scattering once you get out to 50 yards or so.
I was recently checking out another Panther and at 10 yards it did surprisingly well with Beeman Sportsmans Series Hollow Points:
Yes, that’s right, $3 per 500. If you want something super-cheap these might be worth a look. They might surprise you.
Wow what a great link again!!
So many great articles there..
Now I understand so much more about the wonderful shotgun my instincts said to buy.. just lucky..
I’ll be watching for more of them in the pawnshops.. and ordering a some springs and brass cones!!
Browning was one smart dude!!
I’m saving all my empty shells, except for the .22 rimfire.. so,
As soon as I have some space and time, I’ll be reloading.. so a call is comin around on the gitar as Woody would say..
Loving this process.. what a fun ride I’m having the the gun world..
Wacky Wondering Wayne
Terrific with the S410. I’ll be eager to hear more. That’s curious that even with that price that it required some fiddling like getting new scope rings. The big question for me, though, is whether the whole pcp thing is really that categorically different. I know they’re more accurate than springers, but is this really a great leap as has been said?
B.B., politics as populated by Wos’s is quite a scary thought. Who cares about the Crosman rollout? Bring on the Marauder test as soon as possible. I have a very good feeling about this rifle. I see a match-up between this rifle and the S410 conducted by Wayne. Why the SKS over the AK47 which gets all the press?
Thanks for the info about the AR-type rifles although I happen to be down on the type right now. With its poor lethality and reliability there just seem to be irresolvable problems with the design. So, I’ve taken great interest in a new military contract. I believe the Marines have pioneered the designated marksman concept and presented a modern alternative to the M-16 with their designated marksman rifles which are refurbished M-14s. There were comments that these had poor accuracy and reliability–which surprised me–and that they were due for replacement by accurized M-16s or AR-10s. But it looks like the Marines are replacing the old designated marksman rifles with something called the m39 which is the M14 in a sort of AR-15 style stock. So, the old Garand action is still doing its thing which I’m very pleased to see.
Jane, what’s your free pcp? Is it the Infinity? If you’re looking to pick up another one that would seem to count towards the view that pcps are really new and worth getting.
Wayne, I also recommend the 1911 as a new shooter. One of the good ones is the SW1911. It has never jammed on me, and unlike the Kimber, the reviews are uniformly positive.
On the subject of objectionable comments, I had no problem with Max’s inquiry about self-defense in a different society where guns are not as available. While I agree with Herb that we needn’t dwell on this topic, I cannot resist this latest news flash from Hawaii. A widely-praised high school English teacher was waiting for a ride at a shopping center when she was attacked out of the blue by a 25 year old thug with a knife who stabbed her to death. The island is reeling because this is right on the heels of another incident of a young fellow on drugs who stabbed two people at a lookout (very near the island’s only shooting range by the way). He had stripped down to his underwear when he made the attack. And when the police finally found him four hours later, he was hiding in a bush wearing a shoe on one foot and a sock on the other….
If Browning was such a genius, does anyone know why he made the Winchester 94 so that the casings eject onto your head? The problem is readily solved with a baseball cap, but it doesn’t seem like much of a problem to have directed the cases elsewhere.
Yes, Wayne, reload, and I will observer the process with interest. I figure I’ll be reloading too once the supply of 60 million rounds of military surplus 30-06 at the CMP dries up. They are currently backlogged by several months in filling orders, so that time may be sooner rather than later.
Matt et al.,
No, I won’t start writing about the Marauder until I know for certain when they will be rolling out. I know everyone is very excited to hear about the gun, but I don’t want to start a discussion that then leaves newbies disappointed for months. I promised Crosman that I will coordinate my blog with their marketing.
If things remain on track you don’t have long to wait.
All I can say is I hope Crosman rewards you and Pyramyd for following their agreements. No one else seems to (I hope it isn't Crosman doing some double-crossing). A number of dealers have the Marauder on their sites and there is a pre-review of the Marauder: https://www.americanairgunhunter.com/marauder.html
Crosman needs to take disciplinary action against people/dealers who don't follow agreements.
It is good to see people and companies with integrity like BB & Pyramyd. I am looking forward to BB's review when he is allowed!
Great to hear from you again!!
I can’t say anything about the Winchester 94.. But, hey the Marlin 336 version has side ejection and a heavier receiver… I love it very much.. easy to shoot.. and it holds a scope real well, which I need with my eyes on a rifle… With a pistol I can still hold it far enough away!!!:)
I’m on a buying pause while I install some more gun safes for the firearms… but the offerings shall be considered.. in due time..
Now, I have to catch up on my shooting..
I still haven’t done the patten thing with the shotguns, like Kevin suggests.. That seems important for success with birds and the clays.. as soon as the Browning Citori sporting clay gets in….
I’ll get Josh and Nate and we will run their two 12ga Benelli pummps, 26″ and 28″ barrels, the rem 11 16ga, browning auto-5 12ga, my rem 410 3 shot, bolt action and the over/under 12ga Citori.. with lots of different shells and chokes when we can.. we shall learn a lot.. It seems like a big project to me.. maybe we can share it with ya all..
I plan to send photos to Kevin who graciously offered to help explain it all for me.. maybe it’s a guest blog? B.B.? Kevin? We’ll build the patten frames, shoot the different shotguns and shells.. and photograph the process.. Kevin, will you write?
I would think I’d have a sore shoulder from all the shooting.. but not a hint..maybe that recoil shell advance system does work!! or the swimming.. that is really a great exercise folks..
That’s not fair.. If your were nice about it, I think you would be better received.. we have different opinions here.. but try to stay nice about it..
like Max has been, so don’t be putting him in your cart!!
And if you can stay nice.. I welcome you, for one.. it’s good to have different opinions.. and they might be listened to, (even if disagreed with).. if presented right..
Anyway, I wish I could say it was nice knowing you.. and maybe when you done dumping your stuff.. you can talk nicer.. and join us again..
liberal, commie pig, Wayne..
see, I might have given you a little support..
I suppose JMB thought the only time you would need to eject the hot shell immediately with the gun still mounted would be in a gun fight. Not having a television or western movies, he probably didn’t think that situation would be all that common for his target market:). Too bad — he might have had a hot seller on his hands!
Like you I’m lucky to live a charmed life and do not feel a need to pack a gun all the time. But unlike you I do understand that not everyone is so lucky. And I’d never want to take away their right to be safe.
Also unlike you I have had to use a gun to fend off wild dogs in the woods. Was glad to have a gun that day.
It is my theory that when the USA takes guns away from the citizens the whole world is in for some major changes… and not for the better. So pray it never happens.
I personally love a good political debate.
Unfortunately for you a debate must be based on facts. There is no place for opinion in a debate. Thus you’d always loose a real debate.
And more important. This is a blog for airgun (and sometimes powder burning guns) information. It is not a place for political debate. So please go peddle you papers elsewhere.
Your opinion’s are welcome from my standpoint. Your expressions seem genuine and are expressed apparently from the heart.
Your juvenile diatribe is unwarranted. Your english is fine and so is Max’s. A differance of opinion is welcome. What is frustrating is your constant vacuous statements. Provide some substance to your allegations and positions. Be intelligent and be sincere if you want to engage a grown up in dialogue. Your kamikaze comments seem designed to offend rather than enlighten. It’s like talking to a 5 year old, it lacks maturity.
In other words, your juvenile diatribe is unwelcome and unwarranted on a site like this. If your sole purpose is to instigate an argument, why come here? There are many other sites where your acerbic comments will undoubtedly trigger the reaction you apparently crave.
Either get professional help or go somewhere else unless you can communicate like an adult.
I don’t think this is the forum for our shotgun patterning exercise.
My offer still stands to aid you in any way I can.
That will be fine.. and well said.. I was trying to say that too..
I’ve trying to stay away from this one but I decided to say just a little.
I am originally from South America. You can own a registered shotgun in Venezuela. You need a permit for anything from .177 to .36 cal, only to keep it at home!. Everything else is only permitted for members of the military. To carry, you need a special permit and training and a reason.
Gun control in Venezuela has not avoided crime. Gun control has rendered the citizens defenseless against the government. There, gun control is nothing but one more useless piece of bureaucracy.
In Venezuela, I was shot at, robbed at gun point, carjacked, etc. Still, I would not carry a gun. Heck, I do not even own a firearm. That is my personal preference, but I do understand and respect those who do own and carry. I also believe you cannot trust the government or think that a sheltered and overprotected life, such as someone may live in Europe, will last forever, no matter how far north or south you are.
I don’t know, just felt the need to say this. Sorry for the digression
I’ve been away for a couple of days, helping a sick friend and his wife and just finished reading the comments–very interesting to say the least.
Kevin, congradulations on your S410. Blued steel and good wood. It doesn’t get any better. Enjoy. However, my Talon SS with 24″ barrel and LDC is humming bird quiet and incredably accurate. Again thanks B.B. for your advice based on what I told you I wanted the gun to do.
B.B., kudos on the way you handled the comments in this blog.
Wayne, take the plunge and enter the world of reloading–you’ll never ever regret it.
Nite one and all, Mr B.
Re: Eager to hear more
Had some time and good weather today. Put another 200-250 rounds through the s410. Had a friend come over and I was more interested in shooting than working with the chrony.
Loaded the 18 grain jsb’s and shot at 50 yards (about the max distance at my in town place). One of the ten shot groups I shot I could cover with a quarter. I know the gun can do better and I think I can do better but it still amazed this pcp novice.
Yes the barrel droop surprised me too. Thought I had read everything about these guns but until you get them you don’t really know. I remember B.B. writing about one of his early pcp’s (a daystate harrier, I think) and the pellet hit the shroud and threw off accuracy? Whatever. B.B. said he talked to several other owner’s about this problem and they said “Oh, of course all “daystate harriers?” have that problem. All you have to do is this simple fix”. I feel the same way. Talked to several AA s410 owners that never mentioned the barrel droop before I bought the gun and afterwards they said oh yeah, some of them do. Matt, It’s the same with whatever you buy. This is a minor issue. My complaint is that if I knew about it up front I would have had an extra set of adjustables on hand to deal with it. Not a big deal but distracting. Still would have bought the gun.
Re: “The big question for me, though, is whether the whole pcp thing is really that categorically different.” and “I know they’re more accurate than springers, but is this really a great leap as has been said?”
Matt61, you just uttered the words that I could have spoke 3 days ago. I sat on the fence about getting a pcp a long time. I had every excuse and rationalization rehearsed. I can tell you in my short experience that this pcp is catagorically different than any springer I’ve shot. Remember, I’m still a pellet gun novice. The different isn’t all good though.
With the pcp I chose the major differance was cost (bad). Effort (pumping vs. cocking) is roughly a trade off. The differance, of course, is that the pcp demands all the effort up front. A scuba tank/carbon fiber tank gives the advantage to the pcp. I know B.B. has great disdain for multi-shot pellet guns but this is something I really like about this gun. My concentration with this pcp is only briefly interupted between shots. I spend the majority of my time focusing on accuracy with this pcp. With my springers I’m forced to remove the gun from the aim, cock it, insert pellet, re-aim, disengage the safety, etc. etc. Advantage pcp.
Last but not least, this was a great leap mentally for me but not in any other way. Matt61, you apparently know that pcp’s are inherently more accurate than springers so you may not want to experience first hand the incredible improvement in accuracy. I had to see for myself. I shoot for relaxation, personal gratification and the hope for better results. The “zen” of shooting for me is taking my mind off of other distractions for a few moments and recharging mentally. The pcp shooting today with a friend that also enjoys shooting was close to perfect.
Fred’s comment after we shot the pcp, the fwb 124 and the R7 sporting a new/vintage scope was, “If you see a good deal on one of those S410’s I’ll buy it.” Another potential airgun addict in infancy.
A PS to B.B.,
You gave your word to Crosman about reviewing their Marauder–enough said.
My best to your sick friend.
Thank you for the kind words.
I wasn’t entirely serious, and of course the obligation to Crosman comes first, especially with the responsiveness they have shown to customers with the Discovery and this rifle.
BG_Farmer, that’s an interesting point. Jeff Cooper has written about a technique for dropping a lever gun down as you eject the shell and bringing it back to the shoulder on the upswing of the lever. Sounds like a hassle, though, and if the ideal for working a bolt gun is to keep the gun in firing position as you work the bolt, it would be shame not to be able to do it with a lever action which is faster.
Wayne, I have great respect for the Marlin as you’ve described it, but maybe one day you can pick up a Winchester 94 as well. The handling is really amazing.
You’ve had some rough experiences.
I spent a little time in Quito, Ecquador. Some rough parts of town and everyone had a gun.
“useless piece of bureaucracy” seems to have no borders.
Thanks for the link to the Marauder test. The gun he tested was an early prototype, but it still looks a lot like what they will bring to market.
Here in Medford there are 6 pawnshops that have lots of guns for sale… with the economy in the tank, they are well stocked.. at any one shop there are 3-6 Winchester 94s… any year or model that stands out? The best shooter or collector?
They are lighter duty, easier to carry than my marlin 336s 30/30, and do look very cool.. so I will pick one out, when there is room in the safe or get the new safe..
Yes! The older 94 are more desirable than later ones. Mine is from the 1960s, but one from the 1940s would be made better.
I will contact you offline about this.
Wich is THE 1911 to buy? Quality and reliability is the important thing. Also want to appologize if I offended someone. I just expressed my beliefs.
You may get quite a few different answers to this question. I invite you to ask it on the current blog, so everybody will see it.
I will anser you here, though. When it malfunctioned so much I hated the Taurus PT1911. I thought I had been taken for a ride by a slick marketing campaign. But I worked through the problem, as you have no doubt read in this blog and now I love the gun. Knowing what I now know, I would recommend it.
That doesn’t make it the best. If you asked, “What is the most accurate and most reliable 1911.” I would have to answer the Wilson Combat CQB. For the money I don’t think there is a better gun on the market.
But there is a huge difference between the CQB at $2,300 and the PT1911 at about $600. Yes, I had to do work to the Taurus to make it reliable, but not everyone has to. From what I can see, only about 30 percent of the guns come out like mine, and all are fixable.
Hi BB and Fellow Airgunners,
I posted this question on a previous post BB did a while back about about the Walther lever action rifle. Kevin found it and directed me here, which I really appreciate, so thank you Kevin.
Anyway, I’ve been trying to use RWS Hobby pellets in my Walther Lever action and all they wind up doing is jamming the mechanism. Either the rotary clip gets caught on something and doesn’t want to cycle, or the pellet just gets crunched up in between the rotary clip and the chamber. It turns a fun day of shooting into a pain and it’s probably not the best for my gun. I’ve used Gamo match pellets and Crosman competition pellets and I don’t have any problems with them at all. One thing I have noticed is that the RWS pellets aren’t flush with the back of clip, whereas the other two I’ve tried seat perfectly. No matter how hard I press on the RWS pellets to seat them they just won’t go all the way. If anyone’s got any ideas about why this might be happening let me know. Thanks again to everyone.
Push the Hobbys into the clip chambers with the point of a ballpoint pen. All pellets must be flush or below the edge of the clip or they will jam.
Thanks so much for the tip. I’ll get right on it.
Let me add one thing. As you read in B.B.’s article, the rws hobby pellets were the best performing in the walther lever action gun that he tested. Odds are that they will also be the best grouping pellet in your walther lever action.
In several of my spring guns a tighter fitting pellet usually translates to less accuracy. In your case the tight fit is in the rotary magazine and not the breech/barrel itself. Nonetheless, you may want to try a looser fitting pellet. The meisterkugeln’s are a wadcutter shape like the rws hobby pellet and usually groups better in my spring guns since it is a little looser fit.
Have you read todays article? You can access it here:
I’ll definitely keep that in mind. I’m about to test fire the rifle again, loading the pellets in the way BB described. If it doesn’t work out with the RWS pellets I’ll just have to keep looking for a good match, but the experimentation is half the fun anyway. Thanks again.
I agree with you. Just when I think I’ve found the best pellet in one of my guns I’ll try several others and get pleasantly surprised. Great fun.
Seating the pellet all the way into the breech (or in your case the magazine) is something I always have to pay attention to.
I’ve had the same experiences with my guns. I had a Crosman Quest 1000 for a while and I was always on the lookout for a more accurate shot.
One other thing I’d like to mention is that I’m planning on using the Walther in the NRA sponsored marksmanship program for the .177 course of fire. Seeing as how the rule book states that ‘any safe and functioning air rifle’ (or something to that effect) can be used in that area of competition, I figured it might just do the trick. Now that I’ve got her shooting reliably again (using BB’s suggestion) all I have to do is see if those RWS Hobby’s are doing the trick. When they’re working correctly they’re right on the mark. Nice tight one whole groups at 33 ft. Anyway I was just wondering if you or anyone else has any tips or pointers for someone just getting into competition.
Wow did you come to the right place. B.B. has written alot about shooting including 10 meter shooting. Here’s a good primer:
He also did a ten part series on 10-meter pistol shooting that is very relevant. Use the search box on the right hand side and search 10 meter shooting or shooting a rifle etc.
Good luck at the match!
Thanks for everything. I really appreciate all the help. While I’m not entirely new to airgunning, the task of finding the right information about competition shooting can be daunting to say the very least. I’m actually glad my rifle started jamming. If it hadn’t I may never have posted anything.
Just a warning, be careful about engaging us confirmed airgun addicts in dialogue. We’re contagious.
I started out a year ago by asking for advice on this site for a powerful spring gun to erradicate some pests. Now I have an arsenal and find myself slipping away at a moments notice to shoot a few targets.
These great guys can make you an airgun addict if you’re not careful.
lol I’m well aware of the dangers of airgunning. I got my first when I was about 16 i think and my father said ‘this is how you aim it, line this up with that’ and that’s where it all started. It was a Remmington Powermaster and I spent hours upon hours out there with it. I haven’t stopped since. I’m out there for two hours at least every other day. It’s a great time and a fantastic hobby.