Hammerli Trainer: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Hammerli trainer
The trainer is a complete spring-piston air rifle that slips inside the K31 action and barrel. It interfaces with the K31’s trigger, but uses its own self-contained cocking system.

A history of airguns

Part 1

This report covers:

  • Description
  • Spring-piston
  • Installing the trainer
  • Maintenance before operation
  • Barrel bushings
  • It doesn’t work — yet
  • Construction

The Hammerli trainer arrived this week and I want to tell you about it. This will be the first detailed description I have ever seen of this rare and interesting military trainer. For me this is the airgun equivalent of seeing the dark side of the moon for the first time!

I was surprised how small the box was. And it is very good condition. Thereย are noย markings on itย beyondย what you saw in Part 1, but on the inside there is a cardboard insert to hold the trainer securely. The man I bought it from packed everything very well, and nothing was damaged in shipment. When something is as rare as this, having the box adds a significant amount of value, so I was thankful that the seller went to as much trouble as he did.

Description

The trainer is shorter than I imagined. I knew the entire mechanism had to fit where the K31 bolt was, and the barrel had to fit inside the 7.5mm (roughly .30 caliber) bore of the K31, so that didn’t come as a surprise, but I expected some things that didn’t pan out.

For starters, I had envisioned that the trainer barrel would go all the way to the end of the rifle barrel, and would be held in place by a compression nut at the muzzle. I thought that had to be done to stabilize the barrel for accuracy. But it turns out that the brass trainer barrel measures just 14-1/2-inches from the end of the blued steel receiver. There is a little more of it that’s inside the receiver and I will try to get that measurement for you, but for now this is as far as I can go. So it ends deep inside the 25-inch rifle barrel.

Overall length from the back of the device to the end of the barrel is just over 22-1/2-inches. A lot of it sticks out the back of the rifle when it’s installed, but the operating parts are entirely contained within the unit. Nothing protrudes when it is cocked.

The device weighs 1 lb. 10-1/8 oz. The bolt and magazine of the K31 rifle that had to be removed for installation weigh 1 lb. 4-1/8 oz., so the trainer adds exactly 6 oz. to the weight of the rifle.

The smoothbore barrel is brass, and its breech extends back into the receiver of the device to interface with the spring-piston mechanism. Not only is the brass part at the back the breech of the trainer, it is also part of the loading mechanism, for according to W.H.B. Smith, this is a 6-shot repeater. Until I remove the barrel we won’t know what the breech looks like or how much longer it is.

The rest of the parts are made of steel that has been polished and blued. Some of them, like the retaining clip that holds the device in the rifle, are matte. The cocking handle has two mottled red and brown plastic knobs for grasping to cock the action. Remember — the K31 is a straight-pull bolt action rifle and the trainer also operates that way.

cocking handle
The trainer’s bolt has two plastic knobs like the firearm bolt.

Spring-piston

This trainer is actually a spring-piston BB gun. I don’t know if it has the typical Daisy Red Ryder type of BB-gun plunger that’s both a catapult and a spring piston powerplant or if it’s a straight spring piston, but I might find out.

mainspring
See the mainspring? And also see what appears to be the rear of the piston? Hopefully we will find out what’s inside this trainer someday.

Installing the trainer

I asked my buddy, Otho, if I could borrow his K31 for this test. When he brought it over, the device was there and I showed it to him. He was excited to see how it fit into the rifle, so we decided to try to install it. I removed the K31 bolt and slid the device into the rifle, but it stopped before it was all the way in. Otho suggested the rifle’s magazine might also have to be removed, so I dropped it out and then the trainer slid all the way into the rifle.

K31 bolt
This is the K31 bolt and magazine that have to be removed for the trainer to be installed.

The top latch on the trainer reaches over the K31 receiver and grabs the rear edge of the receiver as it snaps over-center to rest tightly against the top of the device. The installation took about 1 minute the first time because I went slow to avoid damaging anything. After that it took less than 10 seconds to install. And it fit like it was made to. Which it was, of course. This trainer was made by Hammerli (note to European readers — I understand there is an umlaut over the letter A in Hammerli’s name, but if I spell it Haemmerli I will confuse many of my American readers), a Swiss firm that has long been known for maintaining the absolute highest standards in firearm manufacture. Their machining is so precise that “made like a Swiss watch” is a common phrase we use when describing them.

This trainer is also made like a Swiss watch! The parts are so exactly made that they still operate and interface perfectly — even in a rifle selected at random and used for installation 60 years after the device was built! Here is how I would describe what I’m seeing. Harley Davidson motorcycles are/were built to last and are made of strong, rugged materials. An M1 Garand is built to last and to operate under extreme conditions. A BMW motorcycle is built to last and is precisely constructed. And they all could learn lessons from a Hammeri firearm — and from this trainer. It is small, strong, and still functions perfectly all these decades after it left the factory.

Maintenance before operation

Once installed I began to think about shooting it, but I knew it had not been maintained for a long time — probably many years. Based on the date of manufacture and the low velocity it was intended to produce, I felt there was a strong possibility that the piston seal is leather. Leather seals will last a long time if they are oiled, so I put 10 drops of Crosman Pellgunoil into the breech where the BBs are loaded. Then I stood the rifle on its butt overnight. I know the oil has to move down into the place where the piston seal is, and the dry leather will soak it up like a sponge.

If the seal is synthetic, there is a good chance it will not be harmed by the oil, either, so this was a conservative move. It was better than firing the gun with a bone-dry leather seal that might grab and tear.

Barrel bushings

The barrel has two black bushings around its outside. I would guess their purpose is to protect the rifling of the rifle’s bore. I didn’t know what they are made of, but examination under a jeweler’s loupe reveals they are a tiny cord wound around the brass barrel in two shallow grooves that have been machined into the outside of the barrel.

barrel bushings
The barrel is wrapped with some kind of thread to protect the rifling, I’m guessing.

It doesn’t work — yet

The next day I loaded a steel BB and tried to shoot it. Everything worked as it should, but the BB did not come out of the gun. So I removed the trainer from the rifle and inserted a long cleaning rod into its barrel at the muzzle. About halfway down I felt an obstruction that loosened enough for me to push it back to the breech. When it was as far as I could push it, I noted it was still several inches from the breech, so there is no doubt there are a column of things inside that need to come out. The barrel will have to be removed and the objects pressed out with a cleaning rod.

Construction

This trainer is 1950s technology and also made by Hammerli. So it’s put together the right way and should be straightforward to disassemble and fix. We shall see, because that’s the next thing I will do.

147 thoughts on “Hammerli Trainer: Part 2


  1. BB
    You know I like these military training guns. And this is just way cool. If there is one I wish I had its this one.

    The simplicity but yet so precisely made is what gets my blood moving if you know what I mean. And now we even get a bonus lesson from this gun because of sombodys mis-hap of whatever is in the trainers barrel. We now are lucky to see how it comes apart. That will be interesting.

    Then when it finally gets to shoot. That’s what I’m waiting for.

    Oh and does that barrel seal or bushing that’s made out of cord got like a rubber tar kind of coating on the cord? I have seen something similar like that on something before and I just can’t place where right now.



      • BB
        I do believe I remember from reading your blog that I seen it on the wire stock Daisy.

        And if you read below Vana2’s post and link he provided reminded me of where I actually touched it before.

        And Oldsmobile used something similar on the rear main crank seal on their 60’s and 70 era V-8’s. They called it a rope seal.



          • BB
            Not trying to correct ya. Just remembered that’s what we called the Oldsmobile rear seal. That might not even be the correct word for them.

            Either way still interesting they used it to protect the rifles bore and also to stabilize the trainers barrel.

            And I still think that is the coolest concept of having a air gun action to be simply inserted into the firearm.

            I wish there was something made like that today for some type of modern gun.


        • GF1
          It was not just Oldsmobile but pretty much all American cars used rope seal rear main seals up until the mid 80s at least for as in 86 they went to a one piece rear main seal just like the front seals and tranny front seals had been for years.

          The only real issue with the auto rope seals is over time it would wear and leak or get grabbed by the crank and start spinning with it and be chewed up to the point it would end up clogging up the oil pickup and starve the engine for oil and seize the crank.

          I rebuilt many an engine for that exact issue.

          BD


          • BD
            I always rembered Chevy having the neoprene seals and Pontiac too. And Buick. Even in the 60’s engines into the 90’s. Oldsmobile was the oddball I thought.

            And never seen one of the rope seals tore up. But they were as hard as a rock when they came out. Matter of fact they were brittle and would disintegrate as you tryed to get them out. So yes I could see them coming apart and getting sucked up in the oil pump pick up.


            • GF1
              The early GMs had rope seals from the factory till the 70s for Chevy, Pontiac and some Buicks but yea Olds stuck with the rope seal the longest and some of the motors had a pin in the lower main cap to help lock the rope seal from rotating.

              It was Ford that had the issue with the seals rotating and clogging up the oil pickup tubes as I built several for just that reason and Chrysler had either seals depending on if it was a V8 or 6 cylinder.

              But then it was 20 year ago that I even worked on car as a regular living so I have forgot more than most will ever know since my mind just aint what it used to be. LOL

              BD




                • GF1
                  I had thought about it overnight and realize that the two piece rubber seals had been in use sooner than I had remembered in several American cars. Its been almost 20 years since I fixed cars for a living and my memory just is not what it used to be so I stand corrected and when I first started as a mechanic it was in an independent shop so I worked on anything that rolled down the road and keeping all the different designs in memory was hard enough then but to store it for 45 years is even harder as well.

                  I have worked on Fords to Bentleys and most everything in between at one time or another and as I said earlier I have forgotten more than most will ever know since the owner of the shop I started at had been doing it since the 30s so he taught me most all I knew even though I was fresh out of technical college I was as green as t your yard in summer. Books are in no way anywhere near as good a learning tool as pure experience and a hands on teacher that has been there and done that for many years already.

                  BD


  2. Just to make what I’d call a possible solution/suggestion/near misadventure on clearing the barrel…
    Many years ago an acquaintence of mine acquired a civil war canon and upon fishing around a bit with the ramrod came to the same conclusion as you…there was something “extra” in there. This item had, as I recall, a three inch or so bore and whatever it was, it was pretty certainly made of iron. The determination was there was no propellant charge present (measurement and no powder fished out the touch-hole) but no one normally wants to be noodling around with perhaps a live projectile. And you can’t just leave something like that laying around for the kids to find.
    A worm would never grab iron, drilling for a screw was a very unattractive possibility on just so many levels…
    The beginning of a bright idea (but not yet the bright idea) was to tap the touch hole and screw a high pressure air hose and pop it out. (See, it does concern air guns, just a bit bigger than .177.)
    Now not being directly involved in this process but rather just related afterwards to me, perhaps a few of the details elude me but after running up somewhere well into the red pressure zone, the ‘whatever’ had budged somewhere between not much and not at all. I suspect somewhere along the line, contemplating the POP that might be heard on release was thought to maybe somewhat exceed military spec/recomendation. Like flying and self-driving cars, a last minute attack of good sense was called for.
    It was then the bright idea actually happened and compressed air was replaced with grease and (as it turned out,) the solid iron shot cannonball was EASED out. Took a lot of grease, too:):)



      • BB,
        Didn’t say the barrel need not come off. Point was, the obvious solutions of compressed air and/or percussive tapping with a ramrod are not necessarily either obvious or even correct. Or even workable. Sometimes a fresh look and a slightly “out of a box” look will at least reveal an alternative path to explore.
        Nobody says that one will be right either.
        At least so said that fellow named “Smedley” who allegedly ended up with a broken toe when that solid iron canonball all drooled out of the muzzle and dropped onto his foot.
        Or so the story goes. ๐Ÿ™‚ ๐Ÿ™‚



        • David and Vana2
          That is an old timer trick to remove the pilot bearing for an auto or stick shift tranny that has a pressed in bushing in the rear of the crankshaft as it has no lip or means of grabbing it to remove it from the crank so in order to remove it you pack the hole full of grease and find a rod just the right size that it will fit inside the ID of the bushing. then with the hole full of grease you place the rod into the bushing and hit it with a hammer to compress the grease.

          Grease being non compressible as you hit the grease it will force the bushing out as part of newtons law ( for every action there is a opposite and equal reaction ) so as the bushing moves out you keep packing in more grease until you have the bushing in your hand very simple but very messy as the grease goes everywhere on the final hit with the hammer.

          BD


          • BD
            It’s been a long time since I changed the pilot bushing in the crankshaft for a stick shift transmission.

            You are absalutly right. Forgot that old trick.

            I was going to suggest hydraulics being compressed by air to get the stuck metal out of the barrel of the cannon. And I bet that cannons barrel is every bit of 8″ thick to with stand the powder charge. If anything the hydraulics would expand the area of the barrel legnth on the long side of the barrel.

            I sure would try to go out the breech end of the cannon barrel rather than the muzzle end. The stuck peice should move before the barrel goes boom.


            • GF1
              My only issue with grease to remove what was stuck in that cannon barrel is if like most old cannons there is no breech door but only a touch hole so the only direction for the object to move is out the muzzle and the problem there is without a breech opening large enough to effectively insert enough grease and apply enough pressure to the grease to move the object it would have been a very long slow process at best since there would be no way to push grease past and behind the ogject much less apply pressure to it to move the object.

              Apparently there was a hole or opening of sufficient size to fill with grease and apply enough pressure to extract the object this time but the compressed air could have been a interesting situation had the object not been as secure as it was in the barrel.

              The air trick is one we used on disc brake caliper pistons that were stuck in the calipers bore ( especially the famed Chrysler bakolite plastic caliper pistons ) that over time would weld themselves in the caliper bore. The main thing to do if you remembered was to use the cars own hydraulic pressure to push the piston out of the caliper before removing the brake line but if both caliper pistons were stuck it would only work on one since once that piston came out you lost all captured fluid so the second piston required air to be removed. Here it is key to keep your finger out of the way of the piston and caliper body so when the piston was blown out of the caliper by air pressure it did not catch your hand or fingers between the piston and caliper body as it would do quite severe damage up to decapitation of digits or parts of the hand, a rag helped cushion the piston and prevent it from flying out past the caliper body.

              BD


              • BD
                We use air and blow it in the hydraulic fitting in the machining spindle units on our machines to get the spindle to extend when we take them apart to rebiuld them. The air pushes on the hydraulic oil that’s left inside the unit. You can actually control the movement pretty easy by changing air pressure.

                But the cannon is a little different situation though I guess.


                • GF1
                  I agree with you on the hydraulic fluid helping along with air to push out rams and such but on a caliper piston once you push the first piston out with the brake pedal and fluid you no longer have any means to remove the other piston and since the caliper is going to be removed anyway its quicker to just use air to remove the second piston instead of reinstalling the first rebuilt caliper and bleeding the brakes enough to remove the second piston.

                  I have had to do that on some as the piston was frozen so bad that shop air pressure would not even budge it so I had to rebuild the first one and reinstall it and bleed the brakes to develop enough pressure to get the second piston out since brake systems develop up to 2000 psi of pressure in use compared to 175 psi of air pressure.

                  Yea that 3 inch cannon ball would not have been good blowing out the barrel under even 150 psi of force.

                  BD


    • The (little) hair I have was standing up on end as I read about pressurizing a 3 inch bore with a volume of โ€œa large amount of greaseโ€ with AIR!

      It was lucky that nothing moved! Imagine the FPE in a 3โ€ projectile!! If the old canon had burst the shrapnel would probably killed everything within 50 feet!

      Somebodyโ€™s angel was watching out for them!


  3. BB,

    This is a really awesome score! I would have to get my own K31 because I would have to shoot that thing frequently. From your photo I would think you may want to lube the spring a little bit, however I could understand a reluctance to do such so no grease would ruin the box. Do you think the barrel bushings could use a bit of lubricant also?



    • Hank
      That’s it. That’s were I seen that cord before. I knew I had my hands on something like that before.

      In was on a shaft on a gearbox I took apart at work years ago.


  4. Wow. I just love this thing. Fascinating! Can’t wait to see how it shoots!

    A shooting buddy of mine is a member of a Swiss Rifle club here in Maryland. They shoot matches with the Schmidt Ruben rifles locally, and they attend the big Swiss Federal matches every five years. The concept is so cool. As long as the club members are more than half Swiss citizens, the club maintains an affiliation with the Swiss Army, and the army then provides the rifles and ammo for the Swiss folks in the club, who are in effect keeping sharp for their army duty back home. And the army affiliation reserves a spot for them at the big Federal matches, including the non-Swiss citizens.

    Bummer for my buddy that this trainer is so pricey and collectible, assuming it’s a shooter. Think of all the indoor K31 practice these folks could be doing right now, with 3-odd feet of snow on all the ranges around here.

    PS, those Swiss Federal matches are mind blowing. My understanding is that they run something like four or five weeks every five years, and they attract something like 200,000 registered shooters. Almost makes Camp Perry look like a small local postal match.

    -Jan



  5. This is the kind of post that keeps me coming here everyday. I don’t care much myself about the replica guns but I understand that more people are probably interested in them than this old trainer. I appreciate Pyramyd for allowing you the freedom to write about other topics than their current catalog of airguns.

    David Enoch


  6. And this is off subject but air gun related. Just wanted to throw this out there and see if anybody has exsperianced this.

    I mentioned that I tryed a new hold on my air guns the last few days. Well actually a old forgotton hold.

    It’s laying your front hand on top of the front of the scope. I remembered that it would stabilize the gun from trying to cant when you shoot plus helps stabilize the gun so you get less scope wiggle when your looking through the scope.

    But here is what amazes me. How much vibration can be felt in the scope when the shot goes off. Here’s the question. I wonder if that vibration that transfers to the scope and back to the barrel can cause harmonics. Then some what affect your shot.

    If someone trys it just for the purpose of feeling the vibration I would like to know. And there is somewhere else I was going with this. What if someone designed a bi-pod that had a 1″ or 30mm scope ring attached to it. Then you could mount it to the front of your scope tube. That would keep all of the weight below the scope and make I think anyway a very stable gun. And it would be easy to mount to the gun. The legs could fold forward when it wasn’t being used.

    Maybe there is something like this out there already. I don’t know. Haven’t searched it. But I would like to try it.


    • GF1,

      You are going to rely on how well your scope is made, how strong your scope mounts are and how securely it is mounted to the gun to support everything?

      You could get scope rings with Picatinny rails and use the Stoeger two piece bipod.


    • I have held my sight picture much more steady by putting my left hand near the objective before but never noticed any vibration, what you have is an interesting concept that you should investigate further. All my scoped springers are in pawn or I’d see if I can sense vibration.
      All I have with a scope right now is my Airmaster which I will be shooting later and I’ll try to remember to try.
      Later
      ๐Ÿ™‚


      • Reb
        Yes I would like to know. And what surprised me was the Tx. I have it shooting pretty smooth and quiet right now. Just a slight bump that I can feel on my shoulder. And I mean a slight bump. But man I can feel it when my hands are n the scope.

        Now my Talon SS and the .25 Mrod I can feel the scope push up and back a little. Not really no vibration with the pcp guns. I even tryed the Tech Force M8 with the Tasco red dot. Set my hand on the top of the red dot and I could feel the bump and vibration. And when I place my hand at n the stock all I feel is the bump on the stock.

        I really think in the spring guns and even the pcp’s that the scope picks up vibrations and it kind of occilates hormonics back and forth from the scope and barrel and action of the gun.

        Maybe when the gun is rested from the scope it truly is like the artillery hold. The gun will move and vibrate and bumb. But it will do it naturally and the same without the shooter trying to make inputs into the hold of the gun.

        Hanging the scope from the rope and shooting groups verses a normal bench rest would be a start to test if it will work. Then the next would be mount a bi-pod from the scope and shoot some groups.

        I looked at the bi-pod RidgeRunner suggested and rings. It would be doable. I think when I make my next order with PA I will order the bi-pod and rings and give it a try.


        • I finally got the rear sight off my NPistol to fit the dovetail on my QB-88 and plan to play with it today too it’s supposed to reach the upper 70’s this afternoon and I look forward to stretching out to my full 10yds.
          Also been thinking about putting a picatinny rail on the bottom of the forearm for a bipod mount so them boys don’t have to support it so much.
          Daddy gets to buy the scope and bipod if he wants them though. I’ll probably get a mag pack with my next order because they might wind up in the Lego box but I expect Daddy will keep it locked up when he’s not there.
          We’ll see what happens.



    • GF1,

      I will give the (hand on scope) a try as well as the (scope-on-a-rope). The later would be easy to make into a bench rest item, very easy. I will have to read more on the bi-pod comments. The “scope-on-a-rope” would be like a full turret, well almost. Up, down, side to side, etc.,….. for those bogie feral cans that are left, right, up and down.

      With the leaves off and the woods bare, I can see a 100 yd. lane. Very minimal cutting. 1/2″ dia. trees at best. Now, just need something to do it with. Target lighting was tuff at 50 yds.. Whatever I use, it will have to show good.

      Ever try those 4″ glow sticks/lights that are about 1/2″ diameter? Bet you have.


      • Chris USA
        Nope never tryed the glowy things.

        And I don’t have to wait till spring time for your scope on the rope test do I? And I was waiting for somebody to call it that. ๐Ÿ˜‰

        And get that 100 yard lane cleared out. But make sure there ain’t no branches hanging over the top were a pellet could hit from the arch trajectory of the pellet. Also leave enough side to side width so the pellet won’t hit if you have wind conditions. And I will say this last because the last thing that somebody reads they remember the most usually. Make sure you don’t have kids that play in the woods from around the neighborhood. You never know when they could want to biuld a club house out there you know.


        • GF1,

          Very good last point. No worries though. It’s a mature woods and once you step inside, you can see long ways. High canopy I guess you could call it. Plus, it is gradually banked and 100 yds. is about 1/3-1/2 up the bank. A good sight picture will be the toughest. 50 was real dark.

          As for the “scope-on-a-rope”, you know me,….I am pretty quick to try new things. Think 2×6 base, 18-24″ long, 2×4 uprights on ends, rope between. A nice bench rest addition/option. A rubber bungee would be another option. And yes, I am sure it would change the whole harmonics/shot cycle/recoil thing. Kind of like the ultimate artillery hold as you eluded to earlier.

          Glad you remembered the hand on scope and the rope bit. I will be trying.


          • Chris USA
            I like your idea about the 2×4’s mounted on on the shooting bench.

            And your house and yard and the woods sounds alot like my old house. One thing I can say is I didn’t realize how good it was blocked off from the wind till I moved out here at my new house. It’s not bad out here. Got more room to shoot and nobody around. But the other house I never felt any wind. I could see the tops of the trees blowing like crazy and never feel any wind down in the yard. Was easier to get good groups I do know that for sure now at the old house.

            Wouldn’t it be nice to have a indoor 100 yard lane available to shoot in once in awhile. Not all the time though. Then you would never learn anything about Kentucky windage. And that is something important to learn.


            • GF1,

              The idea is a (set on/set off) item, similar to a rest, not attached. And yes, a 100yd. indoor lane would be super sweet. I would become a Hermit! OK,…more of one! ๐Ÿ˜‰ Fans for simulated cross-wind. ๐Ÿ™‚ Remote control with wind meters set at various points down range…..of course. Humidifiers, de-humidifiers, a barometer, thermometers.

              Aaaarggghhh, Aaaarggghhh,….ewww yeah. (Home Improvement, Tim Allen)


              • Chris USA
                Scratch the inside shooting range. That would cost a lot of money.
                And heck you already got all that out side for free. ๐Ÿ˜‰

                And yes I see that you mean it could be moved. Then could be used wherever you want.

                And I just got another idea with the scope on the rope. Maybe take and tie multiple strands of yarn across the fork of a shooting stick. You know the mono pod like you have or what BB likes to feild target shoot with. Probably would need a taller fork though. And it would for sure allow you to position the shooting stick at any angle. Kind of like how BB likes to rest his mono-pod on his leg and hold the bottom with his other foot. The gun would always be level to the way you shoulder it.

                I wonder what somebody at a feild target match would think if you showed up with something teid across a shooting stick and you rest your scope tube on it. Bet there would be some funny looking faces happening.


                • GF1,

                  Or,… a bench rest match and you pulled out a “rope rest” and hung your scope from it !!!

                  Jaws would drop! Heck, you may even get disqualified ’cause there gonn’a figure your a total “nut” case.

                  Yea,….that would be me…. ๐Ÿ˜‰



                • GHF1
                  I am going to build a rope sling to fit on my FT bipod just to see if it helps with my stability since it will absorb my swaying from my COPD and elevated heart rate far better than the rigid bipod does and we will see if it not only helps but just how crazy my fellow members reactions to it when I first use it are.

                  I know I am crazy so no issue with me trying anything that improves ny scores. I really think it will help reduce the inputs from me into the bipod and gun if it is hanging from a rope so that the gun is free to float so to speak and move with me instead of against me when shooting.

                  Time will tell.

                  BD


                  • BD
                    Cool I want to know what happens when you try it.

                    And what your feild target buddies faces look like.

                    I just love when that happens. Was the same when I drag raced. Had to many people tell me I was crazy antil I beat their …. you know what.
                    ๐Ÿ™‚


                    • GF1
                      Yep it is going to be an interesting project and I am sure there will be some trial and error in design and application but I will get one made and see just how well it works and how many what the xxx reactions I can get from the hard core FT shooters in our club.

                      Especially the three that are using the high dollar stuff and the one that took the WTFT championship this year in NC.

                      BD


                  • BD
                    I’ll be waiting to hear your results.

                    And if it does work for you and you try it at a match and you score good. It could go either way.

                    They will outlaw it. Or people will be trying it.


                    • GF1
                      Yea it will take a few matches to outlaw if they choose to do so and that would only pertain to sanctioned matches anyway so the monthly matches I shoot in are not sanctioned so they cannot stop me from using it then.

                      Will see how it does and let you know. Just got to get out the pen and paper.

                      BD



    • That’s about the only way I could have made that 75yd shot on that Grackle with my Airmaster my first week outta the hospital because I had it propped up on top of a fencepost



    • Michael,

      I thought the same. In the market for my first PCP and (thought) that I had learned that a longer barrel is better for a PCP. Still scratching my head on the shorter versions,…other than the compactness of field carry.

      But hey,…what do I know,….I do not own a long or short version of anything PCP.


      • I like the looks of the Ataman but the price has me turned off. They would have to have 100s of 5 star ratings for me to consider one at that price. And why are magazines so high?

        Jim


        • Jim,

          Yea, the price. I am (looking) in that price range already and lower, albeit that would be at the way upper end. On the way here, that was the first thing that popped up, so I got to see the “line up”.

          Not bad. Not thrilled on the looks. Adj. comb is nice. Very high fill pressure. Wood trigger guards??? I have seen this on several other brands. To me, that is asking for trouble. Anyways, nice to see new offerings at the upper end of things. I think I’ll pass though.

          The M-rod with a tact. mod. (similar to B.B.’s) is an option. If someone could show me a stock that has pull (as well as) comb and butt adj. for an M-rod, it move to the top of my list. The tact. mods. are for adjustment rather than any looks.


        • Jim,

          Part of my PCP research was to read (re-read) B.B.’s latest M-rod articles 1~8. Up to part 5 and 5 pages of notes made !!!!

          As it turns out, the set-up(s) B.B. tried did have an option for butt height as well as cast on/off, plus, the 6 post. pull length. Many options. And since we were commenting on cost, it would appear that I could build a highly customized M-rod for the 11-12 range, plus scope. So that fits well.

          I think the M-rod just got moved to the top of the list. It almost seems that B.B. was building the rifle for me. Tons of info. in there for anyone interested in such a project. (Thanks B.B. !!!)


          • Chris,

            I’m still testing the Marauder. Since I own it, it’s a rifle I can take the time to make perfect.

            Right now I find I need to experiment with the striker length and the striker spring tension (two different adjustments that work together) to increase velocity a little. If I make any significant breakthroughs, I will write another part to that report.

            B.B.


            • B.B.,

              Thank you. I will look forward to that if and when. I was not in the market before, not serious anyways, so I tended to “skim” over PCP articles a bit. I still have parts 5~8 to read. I am sure I will have some questions. I need to go the RAI site as well. Not sure if I have it saved or not, or have ever been there.

              The M-rod has a track record and lots can be done to tune even a stock rifle, so I look forward to researching it more. While I have about a dozen noted, the AA S 510 XTRA Ultimate Sporter FAC was another option. This looks to be a better and less costly option. Considering .25, but .22 may be considered as well, whatever the brand. I got .22 pellets already.


            • BB
              You keep forgetting one more important thing with making power on the Mrod.

              The transfer port flow adjustment. That also needs to change.

              And you know your fill pressure will change as well as your ending pressure.

              And there is a few more things like a 10# striker spring and anti bounce mod. The anti bounce mod works the same way as what people do with the AirForce guns when they put a o ring behind the top hat.


          • Chris,

            What I was trying to say is that the Ataman would have to be a proven platform, not the new gun on the block, before I would consider investing that mount in the gun.

            I have read and retread BB’s series on the mrod a number of times. An mrod in 177 or 22 is high on my wish list.

            Have you looked at the Hatsan lineup? I got to shoot an AT44 at the Texas Airgun Show and loved it

            Jim



            • Jim,

              I am with you on the “proven platform”. I have, in the past, looked at the Hatsan line-up. Adjustability at the rear end is pretty important to me, and they seemed to lack there.

              Call me paranoid if you want, but country of origin is a concern as well. The Hatsan line is Turkey I believe. The Ataman line, Russian. With everything going on in that area of the world, let’s just say I want to be able to still buy parts 10 years from now. Nuff said?


              • Chris USA
                I live by Dave that owns RAI. Only about 4 miles away now.

                I had the first AR but stock adapters on my Mrod. He used my gun to get dimensions off of. I was using a Crosman 1720T 2 stage adjustable trigger assembly on my Mrod. And the Crosman 1399 skelton butt stock. It wasn’t very ergonomic.

                So I asked Dave if he would make me the AR adabter for my Mrod. I already had his adapter on several of my Crosman and Benjamin guns with that pistol grip assembly. The 2240 trigger assembly is the base single stage triggers. But also all the 2 stage components from Crosman will drop into the 2240 trigger assembly with no modifications.

                So my old gen 1 .25 Mrod didn’t have a stock at all. The main air resivoir tube was the bottom of the stock. Then the 1720T trigger assembly and which does have a trigger stop adjusting screw. Then Dave’s AR adapter with a AR adjustable butt stock. And you know the AR butt stocks have quick release detents for legnth of pull. Plus Dave’s adapter allows you to offset the butt stock in any position you want to give you a personalized cheek weld.

                If you go on his sight and start looking let me know. He’s got a bunch of different stuff now so just holler if you get more serious about doing something.

                I do have his phone number. And Buldawg talked to him a while back and got some things from him for a Mrod project he’s doing. Let me know.


                • GF1,

                  Will do. I am serious. Done talked myself into parting with dough, the hardest part.

                  Talk about the “inside track”,… you got it. You know I will have questions if I go that route. Already,….. you are talking triggers mods. and swaps! ๐Ÿ˜‰


      • I’m getting about 700fps with a 18″ barrel on my 2400kt on HPA.
        Some of these bullpups have the breech set way back in the buttstock so they look like they have a short barrel.


  7. The only criticism I’ve heard of the K31 is that its precision and tight tolerances would make it unreliable in the field. This circumstance could cause the Mauser 98K to lock up in Russia, and you would suppose that it would apply to the even more precisely made K31. On the other hand, the K31 was never in combat, and I’ve never heard of torture tests, so I guess we’ll never know. Between its accuracy, small cartridge, and nifty straight pull action, it does sound fun to shoot.

    Fido3030, the .32 police caliber you mention would give some indirect evidence for handgun doctrine that prioritized smallness and concealability. Around the time of the Gangs of New York, that is the American Civil War, the typical Bowery B’hoy or street hoodlum, was described as wearing a big top hat to serve as a kind of helmet, a shillelagh, and a .32 pistol stuck in his belt when he “walked abroad.” Obviously someone to steer clear of. The .32 seems like a much more popular caliber from an earlier era which is maybe why James Bond used it. And law enforcement was very different too. There is an anecdote that TR was shot during an attempted assassination, and he continued to talk for another hour or so before leaving….

    Michael, all is not lost with serve and volleyers who, like the woolly mammoth, may one day make a comeback. My parents in retirement have become sports fanatics. Right now, they are engrossed in the Australian Open. They say that some Canadian who might be an emigre from Eastern Europe is cutting quite a swath with a traditional serve and volley style. Edith was a big fan of tennis, and I’m sure that she is enjoying this now.

    Matt61


    • Matt61
      I had to think about that one. Precision and tolerance and lock up.

      If the tolerances were loose or tight in the correct places you should have a very smooth mechanism.

      Do you know why they cut the spiral grooves in some guns bolts. It’s done for guns that’s used in colder environments. It keeps the bolt from freezing or locking up.

      I would think if there’s problems in the feild something wasn’t designed the best it could for that environment or purpose.



    • Reb
      The Airmaster is a pump. So it should be pretty smooth shooting. Pretty much like a pcp.

      You need to try it with a springer when you get one back. Then the Airmaster right afterwards. I bet you’ll tell a difference.

      But you mentioned that 75 yard grackle shot and you were propped up on the post. Did you have one hand up on the scope with that shot by chance?

      And the question is when you shot today with your hand on the scope. Did you feel more stable? Did the gun wiggle less?


      • I’m sure I was holding the scope on that shot because the top of the post was round.
        I used this technique all the time when bench resting at the old place because it is so stable but my armchair doesn’t really have enough room.
        I didn’t really expect to feel much on the Airmaster but just never paid attention to that detail


        • Reb
          That’s good info though. And your doing it naturally without thinking about it. Sounds like a good combination for success to me.

          And your saying your a airm chair shooter. Nothing like a nice chair a drink and a gun and target.

          That reminds me of when I use to go to the local radio control airplane club flying feild and fly. There was a group of old, new and inbetween flyers that use to bring out their folding lounge chairs and line them up on the flight line and fly their planes. Use to get a kick out of them. They were just always so layed back. But of course you know me. I was out there flying my plane a hundred miles an hour and doing stunts and everything. But what was cool is we all had or place there. And there was one guy that flew helicopters. He was extremely good. I could sit there and watch him fly a helicopter all day long and not even think about flying my plane.

          What’s crazy is it seems no matter what type of thing your involved in you can go in different levels. Like plinking all the way up to full on competion shooting. And there is something always to be learned no matter how deep you want to dig.


  8. 2 PCP questions,

    1) On-board gauges seem small and not precise. I like precise. After setting up a PCP with a chrony and finding the optimal fill (top( and (bottom) end, it would seem like a crap shoot to guess fill pressures with such small and imprecise gauges. Now,.. this may not be an issue, since I have never heard it discussed. Question: Is there no after market gauges? Some higher end rifles have LCD read outs for fill pressure, among other readings.

    2) Looking at doing an M-rod mod. similar to B.B.’s. In the articles, the bottom of the trigger guard was an option, 7 options I believe. Other than being removable to better access the trigger adj. screws,….I can’t imagine what options,…and why. What am I missing here?

    Thanks, Chris


    • Chris USA
      On the gauges they do tend to be not accurate.

      But here’s the thing. If you use that gauge and you write down your fill pressure and ending pressure using that gauge. You will always be able to fill to your determined psi then shoot down to your ending psi. It will always read those readings even if it don’t match up to another gauge

      Where the problem would arise is if you replace that gauge on that particular gun. It may not read the same. What I so with my pcp guns is I write down my begining and end fill pressure from the guns gauge and my pumps gauge. So if I do have to change one of the gauges for some reason I have a back up reading from the other gauge for my fill pressure.

      And don’t let all that begining and ending fill pressure mess with your mind. You will see real quick what happens on paper and I will leave it at that right now.

      And you have to ask BB about the trigger gaurd on the stock he has. Supposedly that stock will accept different trigger gaurds and it has to be taken off to get to the trigger adjustments if I remember right.


  9. B.B.,

    This one is for you, (when you get the time)…..I read all 8 parts of the M-rod articles. That last one, the last few lines,…put the “brakes” on the M-rod. Why? You commented that you had other shooters that would do better at 100 yds. You did say that it could be “tuned” to do 100. Question: What are those rifles? I am looking at plopping down some serious cabbage to get started and want to consider all options, cost aside. That said, adjustability is a concern and a want, so the other’s may not fit the bill. And, (off the top of your head),….what would those other ones get at 100? (group size) A rough guess is good. Really,….off the top of your head is fine.

    Hey, I said I would have questions. ๐Ÿ˜‰ Thanks, Chris


    • Chris,

      I have to watch what I say. Sometimes I just talk to you guys like I’m talking to my best friend. I forget that you each have your own special requirements and desires, and that many of you hang on what I say.

      I am continuing to work on the Marauder — but personally I will never want it to shoot 100 yards. That’s just not me. When I go out that far I use a firearm.

      However, I believe that the Marauder can do it, so I will work on the adjustments to get mine to do that. I hate screwing up a wonderful 50-yard rifle, but since I own it I can always try to go back afterward.

      What I need to do is adjust the striker stroke and spring tension (two different adjustments) and then balance them against the transfer port opening to get more velocity. It’s very possible to do — I just never had any interest in doing it. But I will.

      However, I am presently awash in guns to test and other things to do — such as trying to keep the Texas airgun show alive for 2016. So this is going to take some time. But I will do it.

      B.B.


      • B.B,

        Nothing bad was taken from the article and we all appreciate your being candid. It was just when you said you had “others” that could do 100, I just wanted to be sure, (real sure), I was not overlooking something else, since I have not purchased anything yet.

        Don’t mess up your 50 yd. shooter on my account. A lot of time, effort and data collecting went into getting it set up the way you want.

        “Awash in guns to test”,……we should all be so lucky. But, no doubt a lot of (real) work as well.

        Thanks, Chris


  10. Had to ride the bike into town for a pack of smokes and stopped by the pawn shop to see what all they have since the big excuse for offering $30 on my Impact was that they had so many BB guns already.
    They had what I expected to be a 2100 marked 24.99.
    When I asked to see it the first thing I noticed was the flying ashcan logo…
    Turns out it’s actually a 2200 magnum!
    I’m broke til the first but it looks like we’ll be doing business shortly thereafter.


    • Reb,

      Maybe not the place, but roll your own. Way cheaper. Save huge bucks. Hate seeing you going to the hock shop. A nice 50$ roller and 24$ will roll 20-25 packs. 24$ vs 120~150$. You will be rolling in the “dough” in no time.

      (Don’t reply). Just passing it along. If you are going to do it, might as well be “smart” about it. That is the (only) thing smart about it. To be really smart, don’t do it. ( for the young’ns out there).



        • Reb,

          You missed the (Don’t reply) part? ๐Ÿ˜‰ Just trying to save you some coin along the way, whatever way that is.

          Now, that I have you,…… ๐Ÿ˜‰ ,….what about that dart shooting gun? You must divulge your secrets.

          ๐Ÿ˜‰ Chris


          • Dart gun?
            Do you mean the 760 with 880 barrel that I was shooting arrows with?
            It was an experiment I tried after seeing the offering FX had on the market.
            I can tell you all about it if you’d like!



              • I only tried mine @ about 20yds but it was very consistent on 5 pumps.
                I used a little pipe cutter to remove the nock just behind the flights so it was a full length arrow.
                The 760 barrel wasn’t easy to get out of the breech block but the 880 barrel was easy to press in. Running outta room here I’ll have to break it up into more than one reply.
                Lemme know if there’s anything specific you’d like to know.


                • Reb,

                  Yes. Very interesting. I would get an 880 just to do that. Will the shroud come off an 880 pretty easy? Was there much drop at 20 yds.? Hold over reqd. to hit target? I do not know much about arrows, but I would guess that alum. hollow shafts would needed. Then there might be varied wall thickness that would affect I.D. and O.D. Plus the head weights vary I believe. It would seem that a light overall package would be best. Full length arrow or cut down? No seal of any kind between barrel and shaft O.D.? While I do not have an 880 here, at some point the fins on the arrow would hit the forearm and breech. Why only 5 pumps?

                  It sounds like it could be a quite effective short range weapon depending on the fps and fpe and hold over reqd.

                  I asked a lot, so read carefully. Take time on replies. Maybe I can pick up where you left off,…unless you think that it is not really worth it.

                  Catch me here or on a future blog. I would guess that you stirred up quite a bit of interest when you did it. ๐Ÿ™‚ Thanks, Chris


        • Reb
          You are exactly right one of these day you wont have a choice since you will not be here anymore.

          I smoked for 45 years until August 2013 when I had my first heart cath and decided I wanted to live a lot longer so I smoked my last cig the night before the cath and that is 2 1/2 year later now and it was the best decision I have ever made. No Chantix or Nicoderm just plain old cold turkey.

          I had quit 5 or 6 times in my life before that and once it was for a year but eventually started again because I quit each time for someone else NOT for me, this time it was for me and NO one else which for me made all the difference in the world.

          If you want to live then please quit for YOU since that will help you stick to it.

          Just my opinion.

          BD


  11. BB,
    Someone may have asked or mention but with 90 comments already it’s tough to filter through, but for all intensive purposes and a legal standpoint, would this still be considered a “firearm”? since it requires a firearm to be shot? I ask because I think I recalled a story where someone was using the .177 AR conversion with a real AR Lower, it was ruled as discharging a firearm in city limits.



    • RPM
      And when I mentioned above about wishing there was firearms made today that could have a air gun insert available for it. I for sure thought somebody would ask if that would be legal in this day and age.

      Ain’t it a shame we can’t have something made now days like they did back then. Without somebody saying that’s wrong.

      That is another reason I find these military trainers that BB writes about appealing to me.

      They were trainers back then. Now somebody thinks that if a BB gun can interchange into a AR stock it can go like wise. A firearm fitted into the bb gun AR stock. So now its a bad thing in this day and age. It’s a shame that somebody thinks that every person is a criminal.

      And what happened to the second amendment. And you know how all this polical stuff goes. Here we go.


    • “Crosman’s MAR177 is an AR-15 upper and attaches to an AR-15 lower. The lower is a firearm. The upper shown on this page is an airgun. Putting an airgun upper on a firearm lower does not make the entire unit an airgun. It’s still a firearm in the eyes of the law. Do not shoot this in areas and locales that do not allow discharging a firearm, as you may be cited for violating the law.”

      This was taken from PA’s website on the Crosman MAR conversion page.


    • RPM,

      This trainer is definitely NOT a firearm. The rifle it fits into is a firearm.

      As for the case you citied, I would have to read the entire decision before commenting. So often important details are left out of stories like that.

      B.B.




  12. GF1–The spiral grooves in turn bolt rifles are there to collect the “schmutz” (dirt ) that would otherwise jam the action. Other advantages are reduced weight, less friction (smoother action) and a distinctive , “cool” , ostentatious look. Spiral grooved bolts work in all environments, tropical, desert or arctic . Rifling may have been invented for a similar reason, to collect black powder residue , and allow more shots before having to clean the barrel. Ed PS—the spiral grooves in straight pull rifles are there to operate the action. Dirt in these grooves will jam the action.


  13. GF1– Your welcome. I forgot to mention that in cold environments, ice can jam a firearm. Frozen lubricants can do the same–hence the stories about soldiers urinating on their M1 rifles, and or machine guns to un freeze them (battle of the Bulge, Chosin reservoir, etc. Ed


    • Ed
      Survival is survival you know. If my life would depend on something no telling what could happen. I bet there are more people that would think likewise if they were in that situation.


Leave a Reply