by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Smallbore calibers
- Confusing lines
- Other calibers
- .12 caliber
- .175 caliber
- .180 caliber
- .21 caliber
- .21-1/2 caliber
- A couple really odd sizes
- Summary
Before we begin, I am leaving for Las Vegas and the 2016 SHOT Show today. I will have limited time to answer questions from readers, so I’m asking the veteran readers to help out until I return to following Saturday.
Smallbore calibers
We know there are 4 popular smallbore airgun calibers in use today. These 4 are not mandated by any regulation, nor controlled by any specification. Nothing makes them smallbores, except for the existence of big bores. In other words, they are smallbores by default — because they aren’t big bores.
The 4 smallbore pellet calibers we know today are .177 (4.5mm), .20 (5mm), .22 (5.5mm) and .25 (6.35mm). The round ball calibers are steel BB, which is .171-.173 (4.3-4.4mm). Anything larger than .25 caliber is commonly called a big bore, though there are no hard and fast rules about it. In fact, there are .25 caliber guns that qualify as smallbores and other .25 caliber guns that qualify as big bores. Confused?
Confusing lines
If a .25 caliber airgun is made primarily to shoot diabolo pellets, we call it a smallbore. But if it is made to shoot .25 caliber rifle bullets, we refer to it as a big bore. Some people call the big bore .25 a .257, but that’s the size of both the pellets and bullets, so the definition is muddled.
Other calibers
Okay, now that we have that out of the way, what other smallbore airgun calibers have existed? I’m excluding big bores from this discussion because a big bore can be any size you want. The Vesuvius dynamite cruiser had big bore airguns of a huge caliber! Let’s just stick with smallbores for today.
.12 caliber
There have been many .12 caliber airguns. The true caliber is .118, but we commonly round it up to .12. These are the guns that shoot number 6 bird shot and also the .12-caliber copper-plated steel BBs that Daisy once made for their early Targeteer pistol.
The Kruger single shot pistol made by Wamo, the Hula Hoop people, used toy caps to propel a .12 caliber lead ball.
The Daisy Targeteer was perhaps the most prolific and best-known of the .12 caliber airguns. It evolved into a BB pistol in the 1950s, but until then it fired copper-plated .118-caliber steel shot. The gun is better-known today than the shot it fired, which is seldom seen outside an airgun show.
This Targeteer came packaged with a plastic shooting gallery. Two red, white and blue metal tubes of shot fit inside the gallery feet to keep it stable.
Real Targeteer shot is seldom seen today.
Besides the Targeteer and Wamo guns, this caliber also was used in the Bullseye and Sharpshooter line of catapult guns that lasted from 1923 until the mid-1980s. Those guns are low-powered, so having a very light projectile is quite an advantage.
.175 Caliber
In the early part of the 20th century, Daisy decided to reduce the size of their lead BB shot from 0.180 to 0.175-inches. It saved lead, which matters when you are making and selling millions of shots a year. It also sped up the guns, which meant Daisy could reduce the size of the mainspring and make the cocking effort easier.
There is a range of BB guns made from about 1900 to 1925 that should be using this size shot. Of all the odd sizes, this is the most difficult size to find today. If you fins and Air Rifle Shot of the3 right size, it’s collectible and too valuable to shoot. Everyone uses 4.4mm lead balls in these guns today.
.180 caliber
This is the original BB-gun caliber. It started out as shotgun bird shot, size BB (smaller than size B and larger than size BBB). Seventy years ago shot in that size was still pretty easy to come by, but it has gone out of favor among shotgunners of today, to the best of my knowledge. Original air rifle shot in this size is a collector’s item.
.21 caliber
Both Quackenbush and Crosman made .21 caliber airguns and ammunition. Quackenbsh made lead slugs of both the burred type (wider lip at the base) and also felted (piece of felt glued to the base) variety. Indeed, many Quackenbush airguns were .21 caliber. Even their darts came in this odd size.
Crosman made their model 121 GC (compressed gas) target rifle in .210 caliber. That was presumably so they would be the only supplier of the ammo for the indoor target ranges they were selling to companies.
This Crosman CG is a .22 caliber, but the model 121 CG that was provided in Crosman’s shooting galleries of the 1940s looked identical. Sadly, many of those guns have now been converted to .22 caliber — just to solve the ammunition problem.
.21-1/2 caliber
What? Twenty-one and one-half caliber? Yes. Quackenbush made a combination gun that was both an air rifle and a .22 rimfire rifle. The firing pin was carried in a compartment in the wooden stock. While it fired regular .22 rimfire cartridges when set up as a firearm, it shot .215-caliber burred or felted slugs. This was never a popular pellet size, though it was produced from the 1880s until the 1920s.
A couple really odd sizes
I have heard that Jim Maccari experimented with a .14-caliber pellet rifle. I don’t know how many he made or what he did for ammunition. Fourteen caliber has been suggested by others in recent times. It would be a way to reduce the amount of lead in a pellet, which is becoming a cost concern, plus it would give some advantages in the velocity department. Rifling a .14-caliber barrel might prove tricky, though with modern rifling methods it might be more possible today than ever before.
I’ve also heard of experiments with a 6mm (.243 caliber) pellet. It’s so close to a .25 that there doesn’t seem to be much room for this caliber, but sometimes all it takes is a new caliber to stimulate the market.
Summary
Well, there you have it — all the smallbore calibers that airguns have come in since they started in 1886. There are other calibers, such as .28 that a lot of 19th century gallery guns were made in, but because that is larger than the .25 caliber upper limit I established, I decided to stop here.
Interesting!
I would be very interested in discussing other odd calibers too, in case you happen to run low on material.
Enjoy the Shot Show! Can’t wait for your report!
Have a great time at the Shot Show BB . Reb, it is snowing here. I put a red dot on my Browning Buck Mark and punching holes in paper here in the house .
Just put a few through the 1077 and it’s a little cold for Co2 even though the thermostat says 75℉.
I’ll be shooting my Trail NPistol and probably open the back door to shoot the 2240 in a couple hours.
No snow here but it’s supposed to be colder tomorrow so I gotta get it outta my system today.
How’s that thing working for you?
Hi Reb. I am just shooting it in spare bedroom. real short range but shooting at dime sized targets. I like everything about it except the trigger pull is a bit hard. Being a springer, it jumps a bit but not bad. For the money they are a great little plinkier.
I typically test indoors at shorter range. I needed a mod to stabilize my trigger while filming through a scope cam and I came up with the “Earl Trigger”.. this should help. It’s on Youtube, just a bit of a walk through.
The trigger on my NPistol is coming along nicely, it’s really feeling like a 2 stage trigger now and the accuracy is great but the pellets are bouncing off this last target I made.
Wonder if I could add a little more pressure to the spring like on the Hatsans?
Hi Reb. Ok on your Trail NP pistol. I am not enough of a gun smith to comment on the spring pressu.re but sounds like it may be worth a try. My Colt Commander just gave up the ghost, leaking CO2 . Later on today, going to try and get some of that Bar’s auto transmission sealer and see if that works. Just ordered the Tanfoglio Limited Custom that Pyramyd AIR has on sale. Don’t need any more bb pistols, but like the idea of adjustable rear sights sounds good. Still snow on the ground, but sun shining and 40 degrees F. Have fun .
I’ll probably just keep shooting it and see what happens.
On the tranny sealer, Good Luck!
It’s finally sunny here again but still cold and windy but it looks like we’ll be warming up for the weekend
Interesting about the old calibers and their uses.
I have often wondered if there was a valid technical reason to have a .20 caliber pellet on the market when .177 and .22 are so predominate and readily available.
Curious, what advantages does the .20 caliber have?
Higher velocity than .22 but about the same weight is the strongest argument I’ve heard so far.
It’ll be interesting to hear from others!
Vana2 and Reb
I never got into .20 caliber just for the fact I don’t want alot of different caliber pellets to buy. I got a pretty good balance of .177, .22 and .25 caliber guns now. I know the pellets that work in those guns and pretty well in other guns of the same caliber. So if I got into .20 caliber that would be a whole new bunch of pellets and guns to learn.
So I’m trying to keep it simple with what I know works. I will say though that I keep getting the urge to get me a big bore. But I already got a idea of what caliber gun I would choose and what gun. I will say it will be a pellet shooting big bore and not a bullet shooting big bore.
And back to the .20 caliber pellet. I know .20 caliber pellet guns was the rage back when .25 caliber pellet guns wasn’t. Now days its just the opposite. You hear more about .25 caliber than you do about .20 caliber. Go figure.
About the only reason for me to mess with .20 would be if I acquired a gun that required it, it might make a good sporting pistol round.
If you plan on shooting pellets you must have decided on something smaller than .40.
I like the Wingshot myself due to state regulations requiring larger calibers for taking game.
Reb
I still have my eye on that Hatsan QE pcp in .30 caliber. And I’m saying without shooting one. But reading about them it will probably get fed the .30 caliber JSB pellets.
Gunfun1,
I’m with you on the .177 and the .22 – between those two calibers I have all my needs from 5 to 30 FPE well covered.
With my latest acquisition, I figure my airsonal is pretty set for now. The only other rifle I am thinking of would be a Marauder and that is mainly for its tinker value. (I have a strong preference for European rifles.)
If I do go for a Marauder it be a toss-up whether I would go .22 or .25 caliber. I would probably opt for .22 because I already stock that caliber and I really don’t need the extra energy – I’d resort to a rimfire if I do.
…Although a .25 Marauder would probably be an excellent choice for ground hog hunting. Better stop thinking about this – I am talking myself into another rifle and I haven’t even put a scope on the one I just got. 🙂
Have a great weekend!
Hank
Hank
Hank
I was thinking about something when you mentioned the .22 caliber Marauder verses the .25 caliber Marauder.
And that is you didn’t say .22 caliber springer verses a .25 caliber springer. Hands down it would be a .22 caliber in a spring gun. But as far as pcp goes. I think I would favor a .25 over a .22 even if it was or wasn’t a Marauder.
I would strongly suggest that you shoot a .25 caliber and .22 caliber Marauder before you make a choice. Once you see that .25 thump something and how much farther out it can do it. I think you would be hooked. Plus its always nicer to have a bigger diameter when hunting. Gives you a little room for error if the shot placement was off a little. And as they say a bigger wound channel for the animal to bleed out. And what’s nice about the Marauder you can tune them up or down in velocity and fill pressure.
Just something to think about.
Gunfun1,
Good points and you are probably right – one try and I would be hooked on the .25. I’ll look to see if there are any Marauder owners around Perth, Ontario.
The thing that makes me hesitate about the Marauders and the Condors and such is their lack of a factory installed regulator. All my PCPs are regulated and I have never had to worry about fill pressures and bell curves as the velocity is pretty stable across the whole fill. I was initially very taken with the AA510S but I opted for the HW100S FAC which is regulated and has a better magazine system. Tuned and tweaked, I get over 70 shots (5 mags @ 19 FPE) per fill. Thousands of shots without a glitch, mis-feed or double feed later I was impressed enough with the .177 rifle that I bought a .22 caliber HW100S FSB to have a matched set.
Always thought of springers to be .177 rifles and I have my FWB 124 and the 300 to cover that category. Never considered one in .22 caliber but I will look into them a bit if only to satisfy my curiosity. A TX200 would be nice, so would a LAU… There I go again, darn AR addiction. 🙂
Hank
Hank
I agree the regulated guns are nice. But there are unregulated pcp’s out there that do get good shot counts and without POI changing.
The trick is finding the right fill pressure and ending pressure on a unregulated pcp. My .22 caliber Talon SS will get easy 50 shots per fill from 2600 down to 1900 psi. And that’s at a little over 800 fps with a 16 grain pellet. I could probably even fill to about 2800 psi and shoot down to 1800 psi and squeeze about 8-10 more shots out of it.
And my .25 Marauder has been modded for a while now. Not with a regulator but with some different springs and port adjustments and such. That gun will shoot in the 900 fps zone with a 31 grn pellet. It’s getting easy 25 shots per fill from around 3300 psi down to about 2500 psi. And your probably thinking 25 shots out of it ain’t many. Take a look at some of the other .25 caliber pcp’s that are making that much power and see how many shots per fill they are getting.
And here is the thing. I can hit a aluminum can at 100 yards with both of those guns with the same holdover. And here’s the important thing. Without having to worry about changing my hold at any fill pressure that I listed above when I shoot. The guns shoot very consistently if I stay in the fill pressure area that I found works.
I wish there was a way that people could spend time with a gun to truly see how a gun shoots and works before they make a choice to buy. I bet more people wouldn’t be as skeptical then about one. And what’s a shame is they could be missing out on a really nice shooting gun.
I wish there was a way that people could spend time with a gun to truly see how a gun shoots and works before they make a choice to buy. I bet more people wouldn’t be as skeptical then about one. And what’s a shame is they could be missing out on a really nice shooting gun
Ok, you have convinced me GF1, I’ll be more open minded about the unregulated rifles. I do know that there are many thousands of the out there and people are enjoying them.
I’ve just blown my AR budget but IF I was considering buying a .25 caliber adequate out-of-the-box PCP for a reasonable price what would you recommend? I’ll do some research on your suggestions and see what’s what.
On a side note… I just fired a couple of strings thru the new HW100 and I am getting an average of 857.5 fps; ES 9.95; SD 3.00 using JSB 18.1 pellets. These are preliminary numbers of course, the rifle is too new to draw any conclusions but am pleased with results. A friend of mine has the same rifle (couple of months older, with the T stock) and he says that a single-digit ES over the whole fill is normal for him.
An aluminum can at 100 yards sounds great ! Looking forward to some recommendations.
Hank
Hank
Had a older Talon SS that was before the spin lock tanks and 3 different .25 caliber Marauders. A gen1 wood stock that was highly modified with one of Lloyd Sikes double tubes and other things done. A synthetic stock gen2 and a wood stock gen2 Marauder that I have now that is modified pretty good. That is basically the pcp .25’s that I have had. Also have had nitro piston and spring guns in .25 caliber but I think your interested in pcp guns.
There’s alot of .25 pcp’s out there. But my choice is the Marauder. Their just more tunable than other brand pcp guns with the hammer stroke adjustment and spring adjustment for the hammer. The transfer port air flow adjustment is also a unique feature that matters in a unregulated pcp gun that you don’t see often. Plus they are very quiet compared to other pcp guns due to the shroud and factory baffles. Yes better than the AirForce Sound lock system. Oh and the 2 stage trigger is completely adjustable and can be set any way you want it.
And last but not least. It is a good bargain at the price they ask for it. Plus you can use the Pyramyd AIR 10% discount if you get one from PA. You can’t use that discount with AirArms guns or AirForce guns.
So that’s why I choose the Marauder as the gun I would recommend. Some of the features I mentioned can’t be found in other .25 caliber pcp’s. And some of those features is what helps the gun perform the best it can.
Don’t know how else to put it. Oh and just thought of something else. There is tons of aftermarket parts for the Marauders. Some for the AirForce guns. Not a whole lot for the other brands.
Just for the heck of it you research some .25 caliber pcp’s and let me know what you think you would recommend. Waiting to hear. You just may open my eyes to something I have been missing and could be interested in getting. Let me know.
Thanks for the recommendation GF1. I’ll start there then look around some for my lunch-time surfing.
Will keep you posted as to what I find and probably have some questions as well.
Hank
Hank
Ok. And remember that’s things I look for in a pcp gun.
Those things aren’t required to have a good shooting pcp.
Matter of fact can make problems if you don’t know what your doing. You can come up with a very poor shooting pcp if you get the hammer stroke, hammer spring tension and transfer port flow adjusted wrong. Then add in getting the right fill pressure. Easy to get a bad combination. You should always write down your starting tune before you lay a wrench on the gun.
So for some people something like the AirForce guns with only fill pressure and the thumb wheel power adjuster would be the better choice.
There’s just to many things that play into the factor of having a good performing pcp gun. But on the other hand there is the basic Discovery that performs I’ll say exceptionally for how simple it is.
As I always say.
Simple but effective.
Those are usually the most consistent performing products. The ones you can’t flub up. You know what I mean.
GF1,
M-Rod, 31g., 900fps., ,25 caliber,…….you are gonna’ get me, there (PCP) yet! 😉 Now that’s some serious “Wallop”!!!!
Chris USA
That’s what I’m saying. If they group well out at farther distances and retain all that engery plus have all that mass from the bigger diameter. Why wouldn’t you pick the .25 over the .22 for serious work. Plus just think the power and accuracy as you move in closer.
Hank,
The party line is the .20 is a wonderful compromise between .177 and .22. Far as I’m concerned it’s the least-popular caliber.
B.B.
B.B.
So if someone can’t make up their mind between .177 and .22 then the should go with the .20 eh? 🙂
Agreed about them being the least popular… I just did a quick survey of the local hardware and sporting good stores; lots of choice in .177, a good variety of .22 and even a bunch of .25s but not a .20 in sight. Would have to mail-order them.
Have a great trip BB!
Happy Friday! All
Happy to stick with the
Tom has a great article on the various pellet sizes on his website:
http://thegodfatherofairguns.com/basics/airgun-calibers/
Jim
Thanks Jim, I’ll check that out.
Hank
Vana2
I think Sheridan wanted to make sure the ammunition people used in their guns was as good as the guns so they went ti .20. Also they thought of their guns as primarily for hunting so they made pellets with a ballistic coefficient that would give good downrange performance. IMHO
Fido3030
The .20 caliber had its chance to shine. Robert Beeman spun the .20 caliber as a great choice and beat that drum hard.
Look at the dwindling choices in .20 caliber pellets to determine if the airgunning masses embrace the .20 cal today. Very, very few new .20 caliber air guns being introduced for the same reason.
kevin
If you build it, they will come. I think the problem is only one thing, well, 2 and 3, actually. .02 and .03 inch. With 3 different smallest bore calibers, having literally only 2 10ths of an inch difference is not worth the entire new factory processes, packaging, etc. How many different size small do you need? If every single person shot airguns then there would be half sizes, like shoes, but 3 sizes will fit most. I’d like to try a 20 cal, but they arent available enough to really look at, but, if you build it they will come, if they had .152,, .20 and .233 cal guns as well and sold the pellets too then people would fine tune and find new dynamics to their shooting. I have a great idea. A pellet maker and an airgun manufacturer team up and send Tom a gun with 6 different barrels and a tin for each of .152 – .177 – .20 – .22 – .233 – and .257, after a run down of each especially the in betweens, maybe Tom could endorse the next big thing ? 🙂
RDNA,
“If you build it, they will come. ”
You would be surprised how often that DOESN’T happen! Take the Benjamin Rogue, for example. It just didn’t sell.
Ahh, people say, but the reason the Rogue didn’t sell was the looks, the cost, etc.
Once you get specific, it’s easy to list why an airgun fails. And I have made something of a name for myself by being able to know this before the gun is launched — although I was on the Rogue development team.
Yes, but again, let’s be specific. I never wanted the AR-15 look of the Rogue. I told Crosman to make the rifle look as classic as they could, and instead they made it look like a ray gun. I told them to offer a .410 barrel at the launch of the gun and they decided to wait. I said to price the gun at less than a thousand dollars, because that is a critical cost point, and instead they priced it several hundred dollars more.
If you build a Ferrari but put a 6-cylinder engine in it for economy and 4 doors to make it family-friendy and give it 9 inches of ground clearance for the off-road set,
IT’S NOT REALLY A FERRARI ANY LONGER — IS IT?
To sell well an airgun needs to appeal to a specific target user. It doesn’t have to satisfy all of them . In fact, trying to do so will invariably kill any new gun.
B.B.
That is a great footnote on the rogue, I mentioned a little while ago about blending their target markets together not working with the armada and the black gun styling. The bulldog got the same treatment and will do better then the rogue probably only for the fact its shy of 1000$ (before shipping and taxes) , but your absolutely right, 999.89$ sells better then 1000.99$. I think crosman should just stay in the mid price market, and im sure the dust will settle to exactly that. They branched off of the nitro piston a million times, why on earth would they walk away from the marauder? Or walk that way with the armada, more accurately. Get rid of black gun except for the toys and trainers, get rid of bulldog and sell the marauder in carbine or with a proper bullpup stock and make it available in big bore. Too simple and cheap I guess, but what do we know? Hopefully they listen a little closer soon or the next generation wont know what a wood stock feels like, at least not from American makers.
RDNA
I will be a fortune teller right now.
If Crosman turns the Marauder into a big bore gun and offers it for $520 it will be a seller.
No doubt in my mind.
I’ve become friends with several high end, custom airgun makers.
Their favorite phrases are similar, “If you build it they will stay away.”
kevin
BB
Give us some sneak preaks from the show. You know something to keep us watching till you get home and give the big report.
Hope your having a good time.
It’s a shame that BB shot has gone out of favor, it should be perfect for Turkey at 30-40yds!
Wow, SHOT show time again! It’ll be interesting to see the new products. Recently the airgun offerings have been more interesting than the firearms which have been kind of repetitive and tactically focused.
Today’s post reminds me that caliber popularity is probably determined more by commercial availability than actual performance. I know that for firearms, shooting obscure calibers is not worth it.
Matt61
It’s nice to have as wide a selection of ammo to choose from as possible!
But that’s also a good reason to start reloading your own.
It’s nice to see what is new. However, it seems that many current items across the board are often out of stock or unavailable for very long periods of time. Perhaps the manufactures need to concentrate on producing what they currently make.
Mike
Since today’s topic is on “other” calibers, has anyone seen an Apache duel caliber air rifle or pistol? I search the blog but didn’t get any hits. Apparently the Apache was designed to shoot number 4 buckshot (.24 caliber) but also came with a sleeve to also shoot 177. My blue book has some additional information but it is at home.
There are a couple for sale gunbroker.com if anyone is interested.
Jim
Jim,
That’s one I overlooked. I thought the Apache was a .25 caliber with a .177 barrel insert. The fact that it’s a 6mm (no, 4 buckshot) makes it a lot more interesting.
B.B.
Tom,
The article that I read said 24 caliber (#4 buckshot). However, the picture of the box says 25 caliber.
http://cinedux.com/apache-airguns.php
I wonder which one is correct?
Jim
Jim,
I’d put my money on the box.
B.B.
Tom,
Normally I would agree that the box would be correct. I went back a read the article again more closely. The next to last paragraph: “Here is a “believe it or note footnote. The ball ammo supplied by the maker is designated .250 caliber. Sure enough, it doesn’t fit my rifle or pistol!”
LOL. I can see why they went bankrupt.
Jim
I’ve seen them in online auctions but the information I gleaned there is about all I have other than the velocity was borderline.
I was still interested in acquiring one but I’d imagine most of them need parts that would have to be fabricated.
Everyone,
The 3rd issue of Firearm News (formerly Shotgun News) should now be on the newsstands. I wrote a feature article about the Pelletgage and the Speedy Pellet Inspector — plus a column on the Rhino field target that Richard Otten makes. This is a color issue so all thew pictures are in color. Most large grocery stores have Firearm News in their magazine section.
B.B.
And just thought I would say this.
I finally found my old ARH (Air Rifle Headquarters) catalog. Its a 1976. Just glanced through it before I left for work real quick. Amazing catalog. They tell about accuracy tunes you can purchase for a additional cost. And so much more. Plus I just glanced at the FWB 300 Match L like I have now. They retailed for 600 or so dollars and sold for 400 and something dollars.
That was alot of money back then. I was starting to drive at that time so now I really know why I never bought one. My mind switched over to hot rodding cars.
Re: The old ARH “accuracy tunes you can purchase for a additional cost.”
I’ve owned several guns from the Robert Law ARH days that had “accuracy tunes” performed by ARH. They don’t call them 4 rag tunes for nothing!
kevin
Kevin
What I think is amazing is how they marketed the products they sold.
The catalog was more like a air gun magazine than a catalog. Back before the internet days the catalog was a big resource for information. Heck each page has a big picture of the gun on it with a full page description about the gun. They list factory fps and accuracy and after tune fps and accuracy. Plus at the begining of the catalog very leghnthy descriptions of the different types of spring guns. And cut away pictures of the guns mechanism. And at the back of the catalog parts diagrams of the guns and parts list of replacement parts.
What I like also is the catalog tells about barrel cleaning and if you should or how often and even if you really need to. And then internal and external lubrication of the guns.
And the scopes they list for sale of the day is a drastic difference compared to scopes we have available today.
Then there’s the pellets. Some are still available today but with different names now.
If someone could or would republish one of their catalogs it would have to be the 1976 catalog. I bet it would sell like hotcakes once somebody got one now days and started pouring out some reviews about the catalog.
Oh and its been over 9 years since I seen thit catalog. I packed it away when we moved into our other house we just moved from. Guess we’re I finally found it. Mixed in with my 1970’s amd 80’s Hot rod, Pobular Hot Rodding and Car Craft magazines. Go figure. I should of looked there first.
Gunfun1,
I’ve got most of the old ARH catalogs, all 6 of the Airgun Revue’s, all of the American Airgunner magazines, most of the Beeman catalogs (including the first issue), most of the RF & A (Rimfire & Airgun Magazine) and others.
We owe a lot to Robert Law, may he rest in peace. Robert Beeman took airgun marketing and airgun education to a whole new level IMHO.
You may be surprised to learn how cheaply and slowly the old ARH catalogs sell when they come to market which is fairly frequently. Not sure republishing would be a money maker.
kevin
Kevin
Maybe not a money maker. But some important part of history with air guns that is lost right now. Of course unless tour lucky to find a copy for sale.
If they did republish one or some of the catalogs it would at least give people the operrunity to see what was back then. I believe that was a very important time for air guns and what they have become today. Just like the muscle car wars of the day. That era in time for sure changed the way vehicles perform today.
A republished catalog would just be another usefull resource to learn from. I believe anyway.
GF1,
Got Chairgun loaded. The problem, (I think?), was a JAVA download. Funny, the new laptop instructions did not say anything about giving it coffee. 😉 You got the young’ins to help you with all the tech. stuff. At any rate, look forward to plugging in some numbers and see what the optimum sighting in range would be.
Since I know the best pellets, I guess the weight and chrony fps and scope height would be it???? Am I missing something before I get started?
Thanks, Chris
P.S.,…..Try the trigger stop yet? Will be doing the LGU soon. P.A. ring order tomorrow.
Chris USA
Glad you got Chairgun installed. And yes daughters definitely keep me straight on all this computer stuff. Oh and you didn’t know your computer needed some coffee to get it going too.? 😉
But sounds like you know what’s got to be plugged into Chairgun. Zero distance is the only other thing you need for now.
The thing to do is plug in how your gun is set up now. Including zero in distance. Then change one thing. Like scope hieght and see how it affects your drop and rise of the pellets trajectory in relation to your aim point. Or change the sight in distance too. It affects things too.
For now if you mess around with those two things you can see where the pellet will impact compared to where you aim.
All the other things like velocity and pellet type are you fixed readings that you know are not going to change. Well you know there is variables in data. But that is how the guns performing now with that pellet.
So that leaves different scope heights and zero distances to play with. Because those are the things you can change.
But what makes a difference is your kill zone. That’s the perimeter that keeps the pellet in a certain point of impact compared to point of aim. So when you input that into the Chairgun program you will see what zero distance and scope height works the best.
In other words the closer you keep the pellets flight to reticle zero the less hold over or under you will need. In other words. You should be able to keep your scope closer to optical center. It’s all about what the scope see’s compared to where the pellet hits. I usually use 1″ for my kill zone.
Oh also scope magnification you choose to shoot at changes all that too. So really you should know what magnification you like to shoot at before you start inputting all your other info. And most important stick with that magnification when you shoot.
Sound like alot. It’s not really. Scope height and zero distance is the two things you will change. All the others are fixed and you should leave alone .and velocity and pellet weight stay the same.
Then you just see what scope height and zero distance keeps your pellet hitting in that kill zone.
You’ll get it once you start playing with it. I know you will.
🙂
GF1,
Thank you. All good info. and all makes sense. I did play with it quite a bit last winter, but not real serious. ( read: “wet behind the ears”). Add a year,….and well,…I am ready to play with it. 🙂
Thanks again, Chris
Chris USA
You will see what a cool tool it is the more you mess with it.
That’s what happened to me. Well among other things that’s wrong with me. 😉
Just went to check the mail and not only did it get colder with a high of 50℉ but the wind is gusting into the 30mph range.
Looks like I’ll be watching the tube today.
Does anyone remember the prelude to airsoft?
There used to be 6mm guns that shot soft plastic balls. I wanted one in a bad way to shoot inside.
Haven’t seen any around lately.
Reb
Can ypu explain more about what guns your talking about.
They were cheaply made plastic toys that shot soft plastic or almost rubber yellow balls that came on a framework like model parts and it claimed they were reusable. I saw them in the 5&10¢ stores before Wal-Mart took over that niche.
Maybe B.B. will see this and have an idea of what I’m talking about. I remember there being at least one pistol and a shotgun and that my money had started going on cigarettes so it was in the ’80’s but that’s about it.
They may have also been the same guns advertised in comics but I never ordered one so not sure.
Reb,
Nope. I don’t remember them. I remember Nerf, but they were bigger than 6mm.
Daisy started selling soft air (their name for airsoft) in the early 1980s. They were very cheap and plactic-y. Are you sure you don’t mean them?
B.B.
The part I remember best was how replacement rounds came on framework and had to be broken off.
Good to hear from you!
Did Hatsan have a prototype of their breakbarrel bigbore?
Thanks for your input!
I don’t recall any branding, which if it were Daisy I’m sure they would’ve used their name but it’s been a long time.
Reb
Yes I do remember them
Can’t remember the exact time frame. But I was younger. I do remember turning the balls to break them free from the peice they were molded in.
I don’t think they were Nerf or any major brand name as BB said.
I bet they were a Chinese toy that got put in the market. No telling what you could find in the stores when that was going on.
That’s about when stores started watching what they stocked due to lawsuits.
Reb
Wally world did change the game plan. I will say that.
And their still doing it till this day. Am I right?
They’ve got their fingers in all the pies now and no change in sight!
I miss Mott’s and TG&Y.
Reb
All the little self owned shops is what I miss.
There was some unique shops back then. And some good little family owned restaurants.
That’s the thing with high end marketing. Sooner or later the domino effect changes thing.
The thing is the big boy stores didn’t realize the little shops that was their competion fed them.
Now people are getting smart and remembering why those little shops are so nice.
You know why. Because they cared about what their customers thought about the services they provided. People are paying a little money re to somebody they trust.
Trust makes a difference. Believe me it does.
Reb,
I am pretty sure I remember what you are talking about. All plastic, clear see through frame. Neon colored internal parts. I think it was a simple plunger that you pulled straight out the back of the pistol, where the hammer would be. I am pretty sure that there was a square rod with saw tooth type cuts, that was part of the plunger assy., which acted as the sear area. I would be very surprised that something similar would not be sold today. How hard have you looked around? Dollar type stores?
It could be that short of Nerf, the true toy, small kids “guns” do not shoot a projectile at all any more? Maybe just some lights and/or sounds? Plus the choking hazards for small kids from the 6mm balls.
I do remember it had a choking hazard warning and my sister was born when I was 8 so that probably had a lot to do with me not getting one.
T’would seem some attention be directed to the ancient and respected endeavor of “Anvil-Launching.”
‘Twiddle” if you will these puny .14, .12, and whatsoever non-standard calibers…what about the solid-iron/steel of a truly man’s/women’s man’s/women’s projectile, propelled by simple handful of black-powder.
Piffle to your Kevlar or high-tech plastic body armor.
There be little to resist a hundred or two or more pounds of steel dropping from 200 or more feet onto …well, about anything you’re likely to put out there. Other than a great deal of amusement, that patio table/umbrella item bought at Wally-world will likely not fare well. Not to mention the new Prius.
The Pool might be okay, if you could center-punch it.
But I might pay to watch…
Kids, no matter how good the softball mitt, don’t try the miraculous catch at home.
But what caliber? How many grains of weight? Foot-pounds of energy? Charge weight?
In any case, it addresses the question of non-standard projectile weight and caliber…
Rifle it and pick another propellant and the DOD will beat a path to your door.
🙂
Reb,
Youtube awaits. Be sure and research “Bucket-Launching” too, the slightly less-lethal step-child of “Anvil-Lofting.”
But still won’t do the new Prius any good.
Reb,
Oh, and like the need to defrost the frozen chicken before launching it at an aircraft windshield, make sure there’s water in the pool. 🙂 🙂
David
BB__Reb–GF1 — etc–You are referring to the ZEBRA toy pistol. It resembled the Whitney Wolverine .22 cal pistol, came with a box of round yellow plastic balls connected together by sprue. There were many complaints by parents because of the “zebra” murderer. I do not know if the toy predated the murders, but that is one of the reasons it was taken off the market. I still have the zebra pistol that I bought for my son, but I am out of ammo. Ed
Ed
I remember the gun being like what Chris described. But I also can remember something like your describing.
I remember more clearly the gun Chris is talking about. I will have to search both guns and see if I find any pictures. I’ll post a link if I find it later.
PS– The zebra pistol that I have is made of a dark blue plastic, with wood brown plastic grips. It is double action, no plunger. Ed
I always assumed they were catapult guns and the rubbery balls added velocity but that looks right for the pistol, I also remember a shotgun and I’m sure there was another long gun.
PPSS— My zebra pistol measures 6″x4″ and has the following –right side–ZEBRA–II made in U.S.A, left side made in U.S.A. pat. pend Please don’t send ammo, this pistol no longer works. Ed
Thanks Ed!
I’ll have to check it out.
I’m glad someone else rememberred.
Actually found an article featuring it by Gunaxin entitled “10 most dangerous toys and it was at the top of the list!
Also noticed something about replacement ammo.
Couldn’t find the gun but found this.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIItEBb1tFq2LKhDQMghaSVt75wluFLZ2s_sURgEXHqSmHjxYrMw
I don’t know if the link will work till I post it.
Is a motorized bear that you put on the floor and it would go straight then turn and go a different way. Basically all over the place. Then you would shoot at it with the plastic balls. I had one of the bears. So I bet I had one of the guns that shot the plastic balls.
Hope the link works right.
GF1,
I have spent the AM shooting and modding the LGU trigger guard for a trigger stop. Works great. In the course of all the work, it would seem that the LGU does not have a whole lot of trigger over-travel any ways. Same set-up as the TX. I did try it in reverse,…the screw inside the trigger guard. The head of the screw fell to one side just a tad and hit one side of the back “C” profile of the trigger, so a reverse was in order. If you do it, make sure it is drilled straight, perfect. The TX is trigger is square at the back, so no problem there. Used the weed-eater gas line as a “screw lock”, but a smaller size. I used a 4-40 screw instead of the 6-32. The LGU requires a longer screw which I could not find in a 6-32.
I also upped the trigger pull weight on the TX. In a 1/2 of turn from factory. I am finding that the increased pull weight does seem to help with the final “steady” of the shot, as seems to be the case with LGU.
The LGU seems to be about 2# which I can not get lighter. The TX was about 3/4# factory set. I have not re-checked it with the additional 1/2 turn in, but I like it better. I will shoot it awhile as set to see if I want to go more.
I am surprised that you do not have a trigger gauge. I suppose after years of shooting,….and ya’ just know when a trigger is adjusted to your liking? Still, data is a good thing.
It looks good and I am happy with it. New TX rings ordered, so that is next. Have not done the Chairgun yet, but made notes of your comment from earlier.
At any rate, just a bit of an update, Chris
Chris USA
I had and have alot of guns. I adjust the triggers to work with a particular gun.
I guess I should document trigger pull weight and the way the screws are adjusted. Then I could check back and see if they are staying. But most guns trigger adjusting screws don’t move.. If they do then that needs fixed with thread locker or something. So yes is the answer I guess. I just know what a particular guns trigger feels like.
Once set I just like that positive stop at stage 2 and a very slight touch of additional pressure and the shot breaks. If a guns trigger changes for some reason. I’m positive I would feel it.
And yes I really want to put a trigger stop on my Tx and probably the .25 Marauder as well as the Talon SS. Now the FWB 300 trigger is another story. It doesn’t really need a trigger stop. It just breaks so clean. I think a trigger stop would hurt that guns trigger. Just my opinion.
GF1,
Thanks for the trigger insight. As for scope over barrel height,….that would be [scope center] (to) [barrel center],…..correct? The LGU is 2.156″ over barrel with .281″ front cap over receiver clearance.
.281″ ain’t bad for keeping it low, eh?
Cool toy on the above,….never had one of those. Fast forward modern day,….how ’bout one of them self propelled sweepers that sweeps the house for ya? Shoot at it and it picks up the ammo all at the same time!!!! 😉
Chris USA
Way cool idea about the motorized modern day vacume that runs around.
It could flash or something when you hit it. It would be a way cool inside target for air soft guns! And totally think its cool that it would pick up the ammo. You know you can re-shoot air soft ammo don’t you? It be another meaning for cleaning your ammo before you shoot. 🙂
And yes center of scope to center of barrel is the measurement you use for scope hieght on Chairgun and other caculater programs.
Oh and .281″ above the barrel is high at the scope bell. My Hawke scopes are 44 mm and some are a 1/16″ away from the barrel. Most are a 1/8″ from the barrel. At .250″ is high. That’s why I like smaller objective bells. You can get in tighter to the barrel. But remember a higher scope is better for longer distances. And then you have to make sure you can place the butt of the stock and comb of the stock in the correct or comfortable place. You know the 300’s have an adjustable butt plate that can slide the recoil pad up or down.
It’s sounding to me like you should of got a competion feild target gun that has all the adjustments for ergonomics.
GF1,
Yes,….adjustments are good for the long and lanky type. (Thanks for the conformation on the height question). Competition FT huh? How ’bout power AND ergonomics?
Of 4 things I can think of,….adj. comb., ambi., trigger stop, adj. butt pads…..should be standard. Oh yea, 1st and 2nd trigger and pull weight…..guess that’s 7 huh? ;(
Thanks again,….outa’ here,….Chris
The link works, I’ve never seen one of those before but it was probably a mail-order product from within the packaging.
Super cool!
Reb
Can’t remember where I got or when or how. I’m pretty sure I was young.
I believe it was some type of metal and painted. Not molded plastic. Pretty sure it was battery operated. And it was one of those deals that if it hit a wall it would back up turn around and take off forward again. (I think).
And there is another thing I remember but I don’t think it was intended as a target. It was a motorized tree. It had a face on it and I think the eyes moved. But it worked the same as the bear and was made of metal. I distinctly remember shooting at it when I was a kid as it moved around the room. I used a spring operated pistol that shot those suction cup darts. I remember hitting the tree but the dart not sticking. Then it stuck one time when I hit it. I whent running around shouting the dart stuck this time. I remember I found the trick to the darts. Lick my finger and get the suction cup of the dart a little wet.
Heck I was spring gun tuning back then and didn’t even know it.
😉
You were a “born” tuner,…… 😉
🙂
Ed
Is this the gun your talking about?https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSO7Gq7dyA1HUZqcAk1eKbS8QCeySOy82RyrPltbC9IxPJhQJZ8bg
I’ll try to get in the office tomorrow and post a link.
Reb
I found a picture of the Zebra gun in its package with the box of ammo it came with.
But the link is ten miles long. No matter how I tryed to copy the link.
It seems that is the only way it will pull up. It’s like they have it that way just so you won’t post it.
I have no idea where to start trying to post a link on this phone but I don’t have a problem doing it on a computer but I think I saw the one you’re talking about. I’m more interested in getting one of the long guns for flyswatting, I’m really not that good with a pistol anymore and my last airsoft was shattering the Shot leaving sharp shards on the floor.
Reb
Sounds like you had a hot shooting airsoft gun if it was doing that.
It’s a Desert Eagle that my nephews and his friend lost the grips to when I was in Abilene to get my cerebral angiography and it was hitting the washing machine I had my targets set up on @ 30yds but they were curving too much for much smaller of a target.
Reb and all.
Hopefully this link works.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/03/6d/4c/036d4c1c798aaed80002ced822d6b4b5.jpg
Yep!
I wanna know if they made a repeating long gun
Hopefully B.B.Will see it and decide to do a piece including them.
Something like “The downfall of toys that shoot”?
Reb
I believe there was a long gun also.
And yes that would be a cool blog about the lost and forgotton toy guns.
Yes it would!
I remember the shotgun and thinking about shooting a Buncha BB’s at once but maybe it was a pump action repeater instead?
I did have one of the ones that shot those little plastic disks and it was pretty fun but they were bad about hitting everything in the room and hurt.
It was like shooting a pinball!
Reb
You are right about that. They did go everywhere.
GF1– You found the zebra. It would seem that they came in a variety of colors. As above, mine is dark blue and is a zebra–ll . Ed
Ed
Hmm Zebra ll. What was different? Do you know? Did they shoot harder maybe or just look different.
From the pictures I’ve seen it looks like one had a removable magazine in front of the trigger guard, not sure which.
GF1—I never had a zebra –I . From the pictures on the internet, the only difference visible is in the color of the plastic. Ed
Reb—The zebra–ii does not have a magazine in front of the trigger. There is a panel on top of the pistol. It slides forward so that you can drop in the balls. Ed
Ed
So color was what changed then. Thought maybe they changed the design or something.
And now that you just mentioned that panel on top that slides open it makes me think even more that I had one.