by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Sig M17 ProForce airsoft pistol.
This report covers:
- Two potential BBs
- The test
- Sensitive Hop-Up
- Hand-held
- Messing around
- Best hold
- 10 shots timed fire
- Perspective
- Summary
Today we take a second look at the Sig ProForce M17 airsoft pistol running on CO2. I discovered last time that the Hop-Up adjustment is very sensitive. I also discovered a couple BBs that are potentially the best in this pistol when it’s running on CO2. You will recall that I also have a magazine that takes a green gas charge, so that’s going to be a separate accuracy test that I will do in the future.
Two potential BBs
The two BBs that seemed to be the best last time are the Infinity 0.25-gram and the Valken Accelerate 0.25-gram BB. Both of these are biodegradable. The Infinity seemed to edge the Valken just a little, so I started the test with it.
The test
I shot the pistol from 10 meters. Every target you see today was shot with a 6 o’clock hold (the top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight and the bottom center of the bull resting on the front sight). I will describe the hold and everything else I did with the pistol in each target discussion because I changed it a lot. I shot 5-shot groups for record except at the end, and I’ll show that to you when we get there.
Sensitive Hop-Up
Last time the pistol was shooting low, so at the end of that day I cranked the Hop-Up all the way up, which was less than half a complete turn. With that adjustment the BBs climbed to the top of the target paper with a 6 o’clock hold. So, for today’s first test I dialed the Hop-Up back down slightly.
I shot the first target with the pistol resting on the sandbag. The underside of the frame ahead of the triggerguard (where the Picatinny rail is) was on the bag for this. I used a 6 o’clock hold. To my surprise all but one of the BBs hit the bullseye, so my first Hop-Up adjustment was almost perfect. Five shots are in 2.17-inches between centers at the bottom of the bull.
At 10 meters 5 Infinity BBs are in 2.17-inches at the bottom edge of the bull. I didn’t use the dime today because all these groups are too large, but the white BB is 6mm (0.236″).
Guys — this is a very good group with an airsoft pistol. I know I have told you about half-inch groups at 10 meters, and I have seen them, but most airsoft pistols don’t do this well. I have another airsoft gun that runs on both CO2 and green gas and it doesn’t compare to this one on CO2.
Hand-held
Reader Rk wanted to know if the pistol would shoot better when held off the bag by two hands instead of resting on the sandbag. Since the gun seemed to already be hitting close to where I wanted it, I didn’t adjust the Hop-Up for this.
This was my second test, and things looked very good from behind the pistol. But when I went downrange and saw the target — ugh! Five BBs went into 3.761-inches at 10 meters. Nope, hand-holding doesn’t work very well. I did rest my hands on the sandbag for stability, so that might have been an influence, but since I’m doing so much better by resting the gun directly on the bag, I returned to that. I’m not trying to get the gun to shoot at its best today — I’m trying to find out which of the two BBs is the better one. It’s a subtle difference.
Hand-held didn’t do so well. I know this looks like 4 holes, but the hole directly below the white BB has two shots through it. And there is a third hole in the white just below and right of that.
Messing around
Following this I tried several different holds and also adjusted the Hop-Up again to bring the BBs higher. I’m not showing those targets because there isn’t much to see. In the end I decided that adjusting the Hop-Up slightly up the second time like it was on the previous target was the best way to go.
I also shot several groups with the Valken Accelerate BB at this time, but there wasn’t anything worth showing. After several groups and a couple of hold adjustments, I returned to the Infinity BB as the best one for this pistol when it’s running on CO2.
Best hold
While messing around I decided the best hold is to rest the bottom of the pistol grip on the sandbag. That gives good stability. The sights seem dead stable and I can hold a good sight picture that way.
The next 5 shots went into 2.179-inches at 10 meters with 4 of them in the bull. The size of this group is so close to the size of the first group that either of them could be the better one. Measuring holes made by low-velocity round balls isn’t exactly precise. It’s more of a guesstimate, with a larger margin for error than with pellets.
Resting the butt on the sandbag seems to be the best way to go. Five shots are in 2.179-inches at 10 meters.
10 shots timed fire
At this point in the test I had shot more than 60 aimed shots and I was getting tired, but I wanted to give the last hold (butt rested) another try. So I loaded 10 Infinity BBs and fired 10 shots of timed fire. Timed fire is slower than rapid fire but much faster than deliberate bullseye-type single shots. The NRA defines it as 5 shots in 20 seconds. Each of my shots went off in 5-8 seconds. Shootski wanted me to do a Jeff Cooper, but the last time I saw Jeff before he passed away, he was riding around in an electric wheelchair at the SHOT Show. And on my best day with a handgun I was no match for Jeff Cooper on his worst day. He shot (to kill) with two hands and I usually shoot bullseyes with one. I put 10 shots into 4.634-inches at 10 meters.
Ten timed fire shots with Infinity BBs went into 4.643-inches at 10 meters. It’s not impressive, but that’s on me — not the pistol.
Perspective
Now, I will put today’s test into the proper perspective. This airsoft pistol is not for shooting at paper targets. I only did it to find the best BB for the gun, which I found very easily.
Can I hand-hold the pistol and get groups like these at 10 meters? Not a chance! But that isn’t what this airsoft pistol was made for, either. This is a sidearm for skirmishers, and it can easily hit an opponent at 10 or even 20 meters when shot by a capable marksman. For distances beyond that you use longarms.
Summary
Now that I know which BB the pistol likes best with CO2 it’s time to test it with green gas. The best BB for that could be different, and the Hop-Up might also operate a little differently because as we learned in Part 2, the velocities will be 100 f.p.s. slower. However, in my limited experience, green gas should have an accuracy edge over CO2.
B.B.,
Anything inside of five inches with airsoft pistol is “minute of pumphouse” nice shooting! You really should do some two-handed shooting with this pistol. Just let-it-happen you just might get a big smile on your face!
Happy Halloween!!!!
shootski
PS: Check your Windage Turret Lock Screws!
BB
I guess in a sense you are lucky this gun has a hop up adjustment since the rear sight is fixed.
But from what I understand the hop up is suppose to be used to control the trajectory of the ammo not to be used for sighting a air soft gun. A arched flat shooting trajectory like a flat shooting .177 caliber is what your after. You need a little distance to kind of let the gun shoot it’s natural distance with the air soft ball you choose.
Then you sight the gun at a given distance just like we do a pellet gun. And if you don’t have adjustable sights like in the case of this pistol you have to adjust your hold to your sights on the target. And of course you need to also figure out the working distance of that gun after you do what I just mentioned.
Well maybe that’s not written anywhere but that’s how I did the few air soft guns I had.
I had good luck doing it that way.
Since we are talking about air pistols; this morning I saw that Sig Sauer has brought out their Precision Super Target Air Pistol. It appears to be made by FAS (Chiappa) and is based on their FAS 6004. Now if it will shoot Weihrauch may have a serious contender.
BB,
I do not know if PA will be carrying it, but maybe you can get Ed at Sig to send you one to test.
RR,
Sig knows that I want very much to test that new pistol. They also know that my tests will be thorough!
They may be bringing them to the market now, but they are going to make very certain that the one I receive represents exactly what they want. Now, Sig does that for everything they make and sell. But there can still be problems.
Remember the P365 BB pistol? We are still awaiting Part 3 of that report because there were problems. I don’t flaunt those in front of you guys because the internet has given consumers deeper insight into the manufacturing world. In so doing it’s been discovered that a lot of people can’t tolerate it.
When a top-flight company like Sig takes their time to send me a certain new product I know what is happening behind the curtain. So I don’t bug them like many people do.
I will get the gun and when I do I will test it for you right away. I told the folks at Sig to just send mine with a bill because I plan to buy it.
B.B.
BB,
If I could scrape up the change, I would also.
Ah well it was worth a shot with the different hold. Oh, and I liked the response to RR “…a lot of people can’t tolerate it.” Very diplomatic.
Rk,
It took me decades to learn that! I didn’t believe it when I first saw it. I thought people were just being obstinate, but after seeing it repeated hundreds of times I realized it was true. There are people who simply cannot tolerate the whole truth and need to be told only as much as they can accept to keep them on track. You don’t want to lie to them, but you also don’t reveal everything because it will ruin their day.
B.B.
B.B.,
I guess I need to change my motto from; Those of you who think you know everything… to Those of you who don’t want to know the whole truth about everything are annoying to those of us who do!
nah! I’ll stick with the original!
I have read on the SIG webpages that SIG sets up their sights for POI/POA when the hold bisects (horizontal) of the bull or center mass. I wonder if SIG AIR follows that same practice?
shootski
Shootski
At what distance?
Gunfun1,
At the POA/POI!
I don’t know another way to say that since it is one of those things that depends on BC, Mass, and MV of that particular round.
Okay, one more try: If you sight in a cartridge at a given range the sights bisect the target at the center of the bull which is your POA (Point Of Aim) the bullet hits that exact same spot, which is the X (POI) on the target. If you then load a cartridge with a faster/hotter round it will typically hit higher on the target (at the same range) if you maintain the POA that bisects the target. In order to shoot to POA/POI with the hotter round you need to adjust your sight in.
HTH,
shootski
Shootski
Exactly.
So what round did they use is what I’m getting at. You found out the info above. You would think they would list that too. Maybe you need to do more research when you post. I was just questioning what you said.
I’m not even talking a hotter or colder round yet.
But back to your original thought. I would just about lay some money down that Sig doesn’t do that with a air soft gun. Next thing is since it’s a air soft gun. What gram air soft ball did they use and what did they have the hop up set up at. See where I’m going with this.
It kind of reverts back to my statement above about sighting in a air soft gun after you get the hop up setup.
Gunfun1,
Yup! I get the hop up adjustment to give the flatest trajectory over your anticipated average range of play/practice. That is just good Point Blank Range (PBR) application. The Hop Up just adds to the equations variables. I guess we are just among those who can’t TOLERATE not getting all the facts the builders know, or maybe better said, oughta know! Lol!
shootski
Shootski
That’s what I was getting at up above.
It’s pretty much all the same for air guns and firearms. Not only airsoft.
Well that is if your trying to get the best performance out of whatever type of gun it is that your sorting out.
The more you learn about something the more you learn how much work really can be involved to get the results your after.
shootski,
I don’t know but I have heard back from Sig and they say 2-inches at 10 meters is what they are getting with this pistol, too.
B.B.
B.B.,
I went back to Part 3 and looked at the targets with your penciled in aim lines. I know you are a proponent of the Six O’Clock hold for formal target shooting. But this is an AirSoft gun that you correctly identify as a skirmisher’s style shooter. I wasn’t talking about group size. See my response to Gunfun1 above this post on POA/POI for a bit more of a try at the point I’m making. I’m strictly talking about the vertical hold obviously centered left-right.
shootski
shootski,
I believe center of mass at reasonable engagement distances (out to 10 meters). Why the interest? Is this something you want me to test?
B.B.
B.B.,
I’m stuck close to home today so I’m bored silly! Just ignore me!
No, just have heard folks complain about their SIG Firearms shooting low out of the box. I ask them about POA and almost always they use a Six O’Clock hold.
Consider it a public service announcement!
shootski
Shootski
Your just too funny sometimes.
😉
B.B.,
OFF TOPIC
But I have been thinking since your recent comment about a long pellet not being magazine loadable and the magazine slot not being big enough to single load either. So… Why don’t manufacturers of air rifles bore a, say 20-40°, cut in the side of the receiver at the loading trough to accommodate over long pellets or bullets with a properly shaped single load tray? If properly done the magazine would still work and ammo choices would be increased.
I hope this gets wide attention among air rifle Design Engineers!
shootski
shootski,
We can only hope.
I was contacted today by Sig, who told me the Super Target pistol is on its way to me and also that I got the same accuracy from the M17 as their test engineer. So the good ones do read this blog.
B.B.
Shootski
If they are going to go that far and add more cost into manufacturing. Then they first need to have a test gun to see if the longer pellets really are more accurate than the shorter ones that do fit.
I think we are opening up a whole new can of worms here.
Gunfun1,
Can of worms…maybe. Extreme accuracy is certainly one type of Shooter’s goal. But total Mass on “circle of vitals” with sufficient energy remaining to get the job done, as you well know, is something hunters look for too. So being able to load a longer ammo; therefore typically obtaining a higher BC is also a viable goal. I was also thinking about shooters who have some skill at metalsmithing for DIY or aftermarket improvements.
I’m lucky in that all my rifles will load ammo way to heavy for my current tunes.
shootski
Shootski
But the gun has to be accurate too.
And that gun better be making some good power with those long heavy pellets.
And just so happens you get a long heavy pellet to group good and you sight that gun in at such and such distance. What happens at other distances when your hunting and the gun isn’t making enough power to give a flat trajectory.
Your probably going to be missing or worse wounding what your hunting. What I say is you better spend some quality time with that long heavy pellet shooting gun before you head out in the woods or field.
See what I mean about the can of worms.
How about we get back to a airsoft distance and let’s see how well we can make that airsoft gun shoot. Heck it may be more challenging then trying to make a pellet gun or firearm shoot good. Or maybe not.
Oh and why do you say your lucky that your guns will shoot a heavier round than your current tunes. Not happy with your current tunes? What do you mean?
Gunfun1,
1. All for the boosting of B.B.’s posting count!
2. “But the gun has to be accurate too.” Good enough beats best all too often.
3. “And that gun better be making some good power with those long heavy pellets.” All about the RPM required. Pop the clutch and GO!
4. “And just so happens you get a long heavy pellet to group good and you sight that gun in at such and such distance. What happens at other distances when your hunting and the gun isn’t making enough power to give a flat trajectory.” Grasshopper, if bullet apparent rise above and drop below to the desired/known maximum effective range not add up to more than diameter of kill zone that is sight in distance shootski go with. Remember Grasshopper shootski use LabRADAR to figure this out along with paper targets at various KNOWN precise distances from muzzle to verify for each bullet/pellet. shootski have great fun doing this; not think it a waste of time, Pb, and HPA.
5. “Your probably going to be missing or worse wounding what your hunting.”. shootski stalk closer or if need be NOT take shot…have great respect for animal!
6. “What I say is you better spend some quality time with that long heavy pellet shooting gun before you head out in the woods or field.” Please see .4 above for shootski’s complete answer.
7. “See what I mean about the can of worms.” Short answer, No. Okay, maybe, but shootski not responsible for what others do, or do not.
8. “How about we get back to a airsoft distance and let’s see how well we can make that airsoft gun shoot. Heck it may be more challenging then trying to make a pellet gun or firearm shoot good. Or maybe not.” shootski not Skirmish. shootski use simunitions in Shoot House or Shoot Town, engagement distance typically much less than 10 meters more for practice practical shooting procedures. Rounds usually hit center Mass no problem if shootski does things correctly. STINGS bad when do not pay close enough attention!
9. “Oh and why do you say your lucky that your guns will shoot a heavier round than your current tunes. Not happy with your current tunes?” Very happy with all my BIG, MEDIUM, and Little BORES otherwise shootski sell them to the Unwashed. What do you mean? For example .458 will shoot a 510 grain bullet and it will remain stable to well past 130 meters. Since shootski not get to hunt Big Game all that often each year shootski happy that .458 will shoot .310 grain bullet accurately and have enough energy to take Mid to Large game and pulverize dirt clods!
Gunfun1, I hope you enjoyed this response!
shootski almost not bored silly, for a few minutes, waiting for deeper snow!
shootski
Shootski,
🙂 I like it when you get bored,…. even more interesting than usual. I am a fan of dry-ish/sarcastic-ish type humor.
By the way,… “Grasshopper” was (my) nickname when talking with GF1 when I first started here. Funny that you flipped that around. 😉
I hope to always be a bit of a “Grasshopper” to some degree. There is always somebody out there that knows more than I do on some topic that I wish to learn about! 🙂
Chris
Chris USA,
I spent too much time flying with the Brits, it has a lasting effect.
We are all Grasshoppers!
shootski; aka snowhopper
Shootski
Well I see you understood everything I said.
Grasshopper. Well that’s another funny one today. Boy you are bored today ain’t you. A little ate up too I should say. 😉
Shootski
This one bothers me.
“5. “Your probably going to be missing or worse wounding what your hunting.”. shootski stalk closer or if need be NOT take shot…have great respect for animal!”
By your statement that tells me you didn’t get the point I was making about a heavy pellet. Your going to need to make power to get some kind of flat trajectory. So right now if we don’t have a flat trajectory that means you better know your scope holds real well before taking the shot. Or know the scope clicks for the different distances. And you say stalk closer? You remember what BB said the other day about the snake. Well you just made it harder on yourself for that close shot with the heavy pellet and under powered gun.
By the way. I hope I don’t get that way when I retire. 🙂
Gunfun1,
Don’t let it bother you any more; I don’t want you losing any sleep over my leaving wounded animals in the field. How can I say that? I completed German Jäger (Hunter) training forty years ago while stationed in Stuttgart; best Hunter education system I’ve experienced. I hunt with DAQ .25, .308, .458 and .575 pistols and rifles none of which are underpowered for appropriate sized game inside effective range. Energy levels run from a low of 110 FPE to a high of over 500 FPE. I haven’t had prey run more than 50-75 meters before laying down. So far I have never needed to use a follow up shot, although that is the first thing I prepare for by loading another appropriate round after ending my follow through.
I don’t hunt with pellets but do pest with them in small bore. I do have some JSB Diabolo EXACT 50.15 grain .30 Cal pellets to try in my DAQ .308 1in10 Long Action. I’m hoping to see how they do going as much as 1,600FPS but if they don’t group I can dial it down to just under transonic and see how that works. If they don’t they will go in the pot and be reborn as BIG BORE BULLETS! ;^)
shootski
Shootski
Trust me no loosing any sleep. I don’t roll that way. Pretty confident when I say something because I been there done that as they say.
Maybe it’s time I start tooting my whistle if you will. Trust me I keep it pretty simple here.
All I can say is experiance always wins out. Well not always. Some do get lucky at times.
And I’m glad you got your big bores figured out. And pesting. I would like to here some story’s about your pesting. I’m sure you got a bunch. Really. What guns and what pellets. Your scope set up and what your shooting at. And where your pesting at. Usually a person that pests with a air gun pretty well knows a thing or two about air gunning.
We might as well keep rolling here. I’m sure it will help somebody at some time in thier air gunning endeavors. Right.
Gunfun1,
I’ll address your wish: “I hope to never get that way when you are retired.” You will find that you don’t need to “Get That Way” but other people will force it on you by not keeping their appointments when promised. That is the only time I’m ever bored silly because someone else is in control of my schedule for a short time and has SCREWED UP! Actually you don’t need to be retired to have that happen. I make certain to never avail myself of that individual or company ever again. And let all my friends in on my disappointing experience.
shootsk
Shootski
As I said. I hope I never get that way when I retire.
As you say we all got appointments throughout life. I’m not going to spend my time researching things and then posting about them.
As I say I’m about experience. Been that way all my life. As you probably have noticed I usually only post about something it’s because I been there and done that. And I’m sure you will see that if when your board the next time you will do some reading of BB’s blog comments and see what it’s about.
All I can say is just do not ever tell me your board. Write what you will but just don’t be board.
B.B.
I’m curious what you’d say is generally more accurate at the same distance,a CO2 BB pistol or a CO2 airsoft pistol?
Or maybe they average out to be about the same? It’s cooling off so I’m looking for more indoor toys!
JTinAL,
At 16-25 feet the good BB gun will win. Beyond 25 feet a good airsoft gun will win.
B.B.
Just what I needed to hear,Thanks again,and as always BB We appreciate all that you do for us.
Shootski,
Grasshopper #2 thinks it,s probably wise to not excite you today!
BUT
I beg to differ with you about your statement that a faster moving projectile will impact on target higher.
What we are dealing with is PTIB, or projectile time in barrel. As most handguns recoil vertically, the longer the bullet is in the barrel the higher it will strike on target at practical pistol shooting distances. A bullet moving at 1800fps will clear the muzzle much quicker than one doing 700fps. Remember, while the bullet is in the bore the pistol is recoiling vertically at the same time. The quicker its out the barrel produces a lower strike on target because of less movement due to recoil. Just some food for thought for today.
SNOW, lucky you! We haven’t even had a frost yet. Got to get my wife to move one of these days.
BobF
BobF,
I gather you like the light fluffy Frozen stuff too! The homestead back East may get a frost this weekend. Being mostly retired allows the two of us to bounce between the coastal flatlands and the Western mountain Ski Chalet (shack) almost anytime we please for which we are really grateful. There is SNOW but not enough to cover the largish rocks and boulders so far. But it has been cold and the bunny slopes are all making snow; something I will never get used to when compared to my “what is snowmaking” youth! Peter Sink a high mountain valley not to far away had minus fortysix degrees Fahrenheit (-46°F) a few mornings ago. The Ski Shack outside thermometer sensor only got down to 13°F that morning.
Well dang it all! I should have excluded all Internal Ballistics! I agree with your statement being true. But also add isn’t that why pistol shooters sight in and then strive to grip the pistol exactly the same shot to shot? If the cartridge is changed then we sight in each time all over again. The single hand target shooter as well as the two hand shooter, both target and practical, do the exact same things. The practical shooter mostly to reduce or eliminate the time-to-back-on-target. I could/should have…heck WILL say that AirSoft (as well as bb and pellet) pistols do not recoil in the same way as the firearm pistol does; even those with a reciprocating slide. That is one of the minor downsides to practicing with a non firearm. Of course that is nothing compared to the downside of force-on-force in a Shoot House or Shoot Town with live ammunition.
” PTIB, or projectile time in barrel” is certainly something to be mindful of and work hard to eliminate the effect of in our pistol shooting with proper sight in protocol and proper grip technique.
shootski
Shootski,
As you have pointed out, it all boils down to consistency! If you can do the same exact things, time after time after time, wether it’s hot, cold, raining or your pucker factor is up around 9.5 you can become very proficient with just about any weapon! Be it a rifle, pistol, bow, slingshot or even rocks. In the words of the late Col. Cooper — It probably won’t win you any olympic medals but it will get the job done each and every time!
As far as the white fluffy stuff. One of my most favorite activities in life is sitting on about 06in. of good hard ice and staring down a freshly cut round hole and seeing about 36 inches of northern pike come ghosting past. The only way that could be better is if I have a good stiff Myers’s and coke in my left hand but it has to be chilled with ice chips from digging the hole. Needless to say there is not much of this activity to be found in Southern Maryland at any time of the year! OW
Have a good one!
BobF