Air Venturi Avenger Bullpup.
This report covers:
- Set the regulator
- The fill
- The test
- Fastest and slowest shot
- Pressure falls as shots increase
- Reg pressure
- Velocity declining
- Discussion
- Summary
Today we look at the velocity of the Air Venturi Avenger Bullpup with the regulator set as low as it will go. I learned a lot today, including the fact that we will need at least one more velocity test report. Let’s get started.
Set the regulator
To set the Avenger’s regulator the reservoir must be completely empty. The manual describes how to do it but it’s not clear, so I will try to clarify things. First off, the drawing in the manual doesn’t really show where the reservoir exhaust screw is located. It is on the bottom of the stock in back of the pistol grip, under a rubber plug that also covers the regulator adjustment screw.
Depressurizing the reservoir takes a 3mm Allen wrench.
Secondly, the manual says the reservoir pressure release is a 2.5mm Allen screw, when it is really a 3mm. It’s a small detail, but the screw is deep inside the stock, so knowing what wrench to use is a big help.
Once the air is out of the reservoir, turn the slotted brass screw, located in the other hole, all the way clockwise until it stops. Then back it out counter-clockwise a quarter turn. That sets the regulator to the lowest pressure. That turned out to be 1800 psi on the regulator gauge.
When the reg was adjusted by the manual as low as it would go, this is where it ended up after the rifle was filled. Sorry for the bad picture but I shot this as I was recording the velocity and my plate was too full.
The manual states twice that the regulator adjustment screw should not be turned in (clockwise) when there is pressure in the gun. I would heed this warning.
The fill
My carbon fiber tank was full this time so I filled the rifle as full as possible.
Where the pressure gauge reads when the rifle is filled.
The test
What I’m testing today is the velocity when the rifle is set on the lowest regulator setting. I’m also testing the shot count. We can compare today’s results with those from Part 2 where I tested the rifle on the factory settings, but I didn’t fill the rifle all the way in Part 2, so the shot count was not correct.
Also, it is possible to adjust the hammer spring. I have not done that today, which is why I said there needs to be at least one more velocity test.
I’m not looking for the absolute fastest velocity the rifle can give. I’m also not looking for the absolute highest shot count on one fill. What I’m doing is playing around with the adjustments to see what they do.
I am testing with the JSB King Heavy pellet. That’s the same pellet I tested with in Part 2.
Fastest and slowest shot
The first shot went out at 769 f.p.s. Shot two went out at 721 f.p.s. For the first thirty-six shots on this fill those were the fastest and slowest shots. The average was somewhere around 732 f.p.s. Shot 37 went out at 719 f.p.s.
Pressure falls as shots increase
Shot 10 went out at 727 f.p.s. After that shot there were 3600 psi remaining in the rifle. After shot 20 3,000 psi remained. By shot 30 the rifle was down to 2700 psi. At shot 40 the gauge read 2200 psi. On shot 50 the gauge read 1900 psi.
Reg pressure
I mentioned in Part 2 that the regulator pressure gauge fell as I shot and I showed you some pictures of that. That was with the regulator set from the factory. Their recommendation for .25 caliber rifles is to set the reg at 2900 psi.
the reg didn’t fall as much today but on shot number 30 I noticed that it had dropped by 200 psi. It remained there until the end of the test, when the reservoir pressure dropped lower than the reg setting.
Here is the regulator gauge on shot 30. It has dropped by 200 psi from where it started.
Velocity declining
Before shot 30 the shots were mostly in the high 720s to the high 730s. Call the average 732 f.p.s. At that speed the 33.95-grain JSB Exact King Heavy pellets produce 40.4 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.
After shot 30, which went out at 729 f.p.s., the shots started a slow decline in velocity. I will show you shots 30 through 58.
Shot……Velocity
30………….729
31………….725
32………….722
33………….729
34………….724
35………….721
36………….721
37………….719
38………….725
39………….718
40………….724
41………….722
42………….721
43………….714
44………….719
45………….719
46………….722
47………….714
48………….716
49………….716
50………….719
51………….713
52………….710
53………….717
54………….714
55………….708
56………….704
57………….694
58………….685
The rifle “fell off the reg.” (where the pressure inside the reservoir is not equal to the pressure at which the regulator is set) around shot 55. After that the regulator remains open and the velocity declines steadily.
But the useful velocity, which depends on what you are doing, started dropping around shot 30. If you are shooting to long range, you want a tighter velocity spread, and, except for the first and second shots, you get that up to shot 30. If you are just plinking, there are at least 50 good shots at this setting.
Discussion
When the rifle was set by the factory (the Part 2 test) the velocity hovered around the 780s and 790s and gave at least 30 good shots on what was not a full fill. After looking at today’s results I would say that the hammer spring isn’t working well with the low regulator setting. If we can get over 30 shots at the higher velocity, there should be several more at the lower setting when things are balanced right. And that is what I want to test next time.
I want to set the regulator at about 2600 psi and I want to adjust the hammer screw in for greater striking force. I hope to see 30 good shots that are in the 800 f.p.s. range.
Summary
I said earlier that this Avenger bullpup is deceptively adjustable. Now we see that both the regulator and the hammer spring can be adjusted and it is my job to find a good setting for both. What I am looking for is a large number of shots with a consistent velocity. I’m pleased with anything in the high 700s with this pellet. We shall see.
On my wooden stocked .22 caliber Avenger that I have been shooting for a while, I noticed whenever I had changed the regulator settings from low to high, it would take 5 or 10 shots for the regulator and gauge to settle to its new pressure.
So after discovering that, when I made a regulator increase change I would dry fire it a few times, then start the velocity/ accuracy testing.
Once I found the “sweet spot” for the JSB pellets, I haven’t touched the regulator since.
My .177 Avenger bullpup is scheduled for delivery this Thursday.
With B.B.’s blessings I would like to write a guest blog or two about the .177 Avenger.
With that we would have covered all three calibers, .177, .22 and .25.
Ian..
Ian,
I think you will do the blog a favor by doing that guest blog, as you said that will cover all three small calibers. Compared to Tom who has a lot of guns on his plate you will be able to devote time and effort in tuning your Avengers. Not that Tom will provide a poor coverage of the Avenger but that his time is limited per gun he is going to cover, especially with his schedule of putting up a blog almost everyday. Another bonus is that it will be easier for future reference rather than hunting through the comments. Also it will give him additional time for another gun to test.
Siraniko
45Bravo,
I look forward to that blog, so I hope you get the blessing. I have a .22 bullpup on its way now and I’ve been second guessing my decision to go that way instead of .177. I really want to try the gun with .177 slugs, but at the last minute I changed my mind. Depending on your report I may get another in .177 ’cause I really want to experiment with those slugs and the Avenger seems to have power to spare and a lot of shots.
Good luck with the new gun.
Half
I don’t Figure B.B. would have an issue, but since he is doing the .25, I don’t know if he would want to run 2 reviews of the gun at the same time.
I have been second guessing my .177 decision, because I already know what the .22 is capable of, so I am setting the bar for the .177 pretty high.
Everyone has their own definition of what is accurate and what I have seen from some online reviews and YouTube videos, most people opted for .22 & .25 calibers.
The FEW .177 videos out there were all concerned with max power, with pellets and slugs, and the accuracy was what I consider not up to the .22 caliber gun.
But the users had not tried to tune it for the chosen projectiles at the time of their filming.
I have been asked by a few people to check it out at the 500fps area to see how it shoots and shot count for the backyard plinkers and under 20 yard shooters.
So when I drop the reg pressure I figure that will be the first velocity range I try to tune for.
Then work my way up to what shoots best out to about 50 yards.
If we are both unhappy with our purchases, maybe we can trade….
Ian.
45Bravo
All I care about is long range accuracy too. I mentioned the “power to spare” just to point out that the gun will probably be able to propel the longer heavier slugs at a fast enough velocity to get the gyro stabilization they need. I am also interested in what you find when you drop the reg for testing midrange accuracy and shot count. I don’t expect that either of us will be “Unhappy” just based on what I’ve seen about the platform. I just hope mine isn’t too loud. Let us know how loud the .177 is. I’ve seen reports that the barrels are crowned now, if you could check that on yours I’ll check mine.
Half
Mine came in, I haven’t cracked the shroud open yet, it is doing a leak test while I am at work.
I know my wood stock .22 is crowned, but I will check for you and report in the blog.
I want this for field target and general use, along with long range accuracy.
I know from my .22 Avenger, and being around to other owners that you have to tune it to get the best results.
With the exception of 10m competition guns, I have never owned a gun that shot well enough to deserve pellet sorting and weighing to get the best from it..
Until I got my .22 avenger.
Ian..
45Bravo
I got my .22 bullpup today and filled it to 270 bar (all I had in my tank) and the gun’s gauge is off about 100 psi or so to the high side. Close enough. I checked the barrel, as promised and it is NOT crowned. Just for shiggles, I checked my regular length .22 Avenger and it is NOT crowned. Then I figured, what the heck, let’s check the .22 ASPEN. I figure it’s the same manufacturer, and it is NOT crowned either. That’s all I got for now. I’m testing for leaks for a few days. My gun came with the reservoir gauge at the beginning of the green zone.
Half
Mine came in yesterday, when I gassed it up, I noticed the scope riser was cracked, and the shroud was dented.
So I couldn’t check barrel crown.
There was no box damage so it had to have happened in packaging.
I did run 50 shots through the chrono.
Remember mine is .177.
The reg was set at 2000psi, and the hammer spring was all the way out. So zero turns.
With factory settings It ran 7.9 gr. Domes at 1052 average, and extreme spread of 25.
It ran 10.3 domes at 970 average with an ES of 12.
It was wasting a lot of air.
I did not detune it for lighter ones as it is now on its way back to Pyramyd for a replacement.
I think it will like heavier pellets..
Ian.
Half,
Think you made the right choice in going with the .22 caliber.
IMHO, .177 is optimum for springers.
Just my 2 cents.
Hank
Ian,
BB blesses Ian! 🙂
BB
BB,
Do you remember how far in you turned the reg before it stopped and will you be testing the hammer spring at both extremes?
Half
Half,
Several turns, but I didn’t count.
BB
BB,
You do realize that you are sorely tempting me to buy an Avenger, do you not? Of course, I am not in the least bit interested in the ‘pup, with it being of the Gen 1 style. Maybe I should call it Gen 1A as the buttstock has been lengthened a bit, so it is not so much of a contortion to cock it while still shouldered.
I am impressed with everything I have been “hearing” about the Avenger package though. Who’da thunk that a Chinese company figured out how to build a PCP worth having? The truth is more of them are learning what is needed to compete in the American market.
The chinese have the ability to compete head to head with almost anyone IF the designers/importers demand high tolerances during design and pay attention to the details during manufacturing. This is on the designers/importers not the manufacturer.
China’s low labor cost and low costs of goods/parts gives them the edge. Unfortunately, longevity of chinese products continue to suffer because the lower quality parts that are typically specified by designers/importers are also a cost cutting measure that isn’t readily seen by the consumer.
It’s still too early to tell about the longevity of the Avenger but thus far all I’ve heard is that some o rings fail and after replacing them with a better quality of o ring with proper durometer there haven’t been any major issues. This is quite a story for an airgun that has this many features at a price point under $350.
We’ve come a long way baby.
While we are on the subject of price think about this.
The Avenger 1 rifle (not the wood stock, or pup) has an accurate barrel (the heart of any rifle) and a laundry list of features very few sub $1000 airguns have.
Here we are 2 years later, and the quality of that barrel hasn’t diminished.
The rifle was retailed in the USA for $299, You have to figure it was manufactured for less than $100.
Now that a Chinese manufacturer has figured out the sub MOA barrel, and can reliably turn them out by the tens of thousands.
Just think what is going to be coming out of there in the next few years!
I can see them eventually moving the side lever forward in the future with how popular the pup will be,
Heck, a guy on YouTube even made a functional pump action on a standard Avenger 1 rifle using hardware store parts.
The Stoeger XM1 bullpup has a forward lever that is also a modified standard side lever rifle, the linkage is simple and straight forward. But the XM 1 only has its forward cocking handle and it’s looks going for it, nothing where it counts..
Ian
Kevin,
You can dig a little deeper and go back a little further. Nova Vista. Liberty.
Kevin,
I am in manufacturing. We have many customers who will not accept any Chinese components. Mostly they have issues of the metallurgical nature. We have a Chinese customer who will not buy Chinese equipment.
General Electric had to bring some of their products “home” because they did not keep a real close eye on the Chinese manufacturers who continued to find ways to cut manufacturing costs.
Nova Vista, the manufacturer of the Seneca Aspen and the AV Avenger, is not your typical Chinese manufacturer. The owner has a better understanding of the American market than most. He understands that we will demand a certain level of quality and if he wishes to compete in our market, he must meet that level. How much of that low cost is due to government subsidies, I do not know?
Whatever happened to the Crosman Maverick?
Here’s something I’ve wondered about. There are a lot of reviews where they proudly say ” we test them straight out of the box”. Are there really “factory settings”, or just the way the guns happened to be assembled? And with all the potential for adjustment does it really matter anyway?
When you check the FedEx tracking, what is the best thing to see?
6:19 AM On FedEx vehicle for delivery
Yay!!
Roger,
I can answer that, as I tested thousands of AirForce Talons and Talon SSs in the three years I worked at AirForce.
I never tested a rifle for accuracy after assembly. That was a given. It was based on the assembly and the Lothar Walther barrel that was installed. In the three years that I repaired the returned airguns I saw one bad Lother Walther barrel — out of perhaps 3-4 thousand.
What I tested was the valve before and after assembly into the tank. If it held air, the tank was good to go. If not, it was repaired.
I think my procedures are pretty typical of manufacturing today.
One gun that I did test the first 100 of was the Condor. They all had to shoot a .22-caliber Crosman Premier pellet at over 1250 f.p.s. The serial numbers were recorded with that test. We didn’;t want people coming back and saying we hadn’t met the spec. The only guy who gave us trouble was “Mr. Condor” who ruined his valve with an overly heavy hammer he installed. I still have those damaged parts to this day.
BB
Replied to Half and 45 Bravo. Thanks.
Roger, while I don’t have Tom’s experience in working in the factory of an airgun manufacturer, locally there is a group of shooters that most of them are using an Avenger of some type, and all in .22_.25.
And there is a growing Facebook community where avenger owners share information.
The rifles all seem to be coming from the factory with similar settings on the regulator, and hammer spring before the owners start tinkering.
I am GUESSING the regulator/valve block are built and assembled with certain “this many turns” and possibly leak tested.
At the price point, and how many units they are turning out daily, I DOUBT they would be each put in a flow metered test jig before assembly.
Ian
Replied to BB and 45 Bravo. Thanks.
Roger
I can’t answer your question definitively, but I can’t offer a for instance.
I bought 2 Gamo Urbans a few months apart from one another and they shot at different speeds when I got them (100 fps or there abouts). They are made by BSA in England, so they aren’t Chinese. The Urban isn’t regulated, but it is tuneable via a hidden hammer spring adjustment inside the gun. It also has an adjustable trigger but both of them had their adjustments in as light as the factory lawyers would allow and they were both around 5 lbs, as I recall. In my testing of the gun I did velocity and shot count experiments at 0 turns on the hammer spring all the way up to the 16 turn max, adjusting 2 turns more with each test. The gun was refilled to the same pressure after each test and the pellet used was Crosman Hollowpoints. I found that the guns shot within about 15 fps of each other at any given hammer tension. The shot count was within 4 or 5 shots at the same hammer setting.
From all this I concluded that my guns were capable of being set nearly identically with equal hammer settings, but the factory didn’t take the time to do that specifically with my guns, since they were 100 fps apart rather than 15 fps, when I got them. I didn’t know to count the original turns on the guns’ hammers before I started fiddling with the adjustment, but based on my data each 2 additional turns raised the max velocity of the string by about 30 fps, so 100 fps difference would be about 6 turns different between the guns.
I guess the factory probable looks for a range that is acceptable to them and then out the door. Most manufacturing works that way and it doesn’t usually involve every unit produced, just a sampling.
Well that’s my contribution to the controversy, LOL
Half
BB, Half and 45B,
Thanks for your replies. They pretty much confirmed that some people put too much emphasis on maintaining the factory settings.
Tweaking is much more fun!
I think when I finally find where I want the Avenger set I’m gonna be short on pellets…..
I agree that sampling product is the norm—but back in the late 1900’s (doesn’t that make you feel old?) I was working in a factory that made roller bearings. I was running centerless grinders as the !st operation after heat treat. This was a roller with nominal dimensions of 0.4334 X 0.4334. My tolerance for roughing was 0.0003. The final inspection graded them into lots of 22 pieces by 0.00025, 100% dimension and magnaflux check on each one, These we were told went into the gear boxes of Blackhawk helicopters, and we got something like $4-5 for EACH roller. Oh, and they were usually sent to the floor in lots of 10,000. Gotta love government contracts.
BB, Somethings off with this bullpuppy. Maybe the hammerspring is set for the 2.9K regulator
output. This rifle should be much easier to hold and shoot either sitting or standing compared to my heavy Mrod. It’s so heavy I had the thought of modifying a weight belt with a pocket in front for the foot of a monopod to take the weight of the rifle. Might need shoulder straps too, and a brace for the monopod at the chest, sort of a back pack rifle rest. It would fold flat to the chest. It would be nice to be able to let go of the forearm. The Prod as a carbine is plenty light tho.
Nice shooting, R
Somebody earlier in this bullpup series mentioned loading mechanisms in the comments. Just for interest here’s my pump action Skan Mk2 bullpup from the mid 90s. The nominal magazine capacity is huge- over 90 pellets.
The magazine is arranged as a set of linearly fed channels in a rotating cylinder feeding a shuttle loading mechanism. A sprung follower pushes the pellets and is pulled back to rotate the cylinder to the next channel.
I’ll add a couple more pictures to show the magazine more clearly and to show the shuttle.
Tim
cool, looks kinda AK’ish. with a crosman 761xl fore end..
I like the look.
I will need to research this one..
ian
They are a pretty interesting series of bullpups with some pretty unusual ideas. The R32 is descibed as a “grip action”- the pistol grip is moved to cock the rifle rather than by pumping the forend.
There’s a fair amount of info and copies of some manuals for Skan’s rifles on some of the UK oriented forums.
Tim
The magazine, shuttle and follower
Tim
With the name spelling, Skan, and the unusual operating method, I wonder if Ragnar Skanaker had a hand in its development.
He helped design the Crosman Skanaker 10m pistol.
Which in itself had an unusual method of operation.
Ian
Skan’s main product was and is chronos. From memory the original product was the “SCAN Chronoscope” with SCAN being a partial acronym from “speed check at nine inches”. The company formed was registered as Skan Electronics.
I think the designer of the Skan rifles was Mike Childs.
Tim
Doing the Happy dance!
Fedex shows the rifle is out on the truck for delivery!!!
But I have to work until 7pm…
Too bad I am the manager and can’t call in sick…
Cough Cough….
Got the 362 yesterday. Didn’t unbox it till today.
I’ll leave it at this. The gun is great in many ways. And it’s even greater with the steel breech and the fixed 4 magnification and fixed parallax UTG scope.
Crosman you got a winner. 🙂
You’re not making things easy for your friend FM with these comments, GF1… 😉 FM’s Choose The Next Airgun Decision Tree is growing too many branches too fast!
FM
Heads up. This is one branch of the tree you should end up with.
I’ll let other people get theirs and make some comments before I go into more detail. But mine is a shooter.
Gunfun1,
I’m liking what I’m reading!!!!!!!!
Mine won’t get here till Friday.
Does yours have a solid front sight blade or does it have a fiber optic insert?
BobF
Bob
Mine has a solid front post. No glowy thing.
And when you get yours let us know what you think. I’ll have more to say also. But I will say this it is a different barrel. Its not old inventory. I already took the front sight off and it’s got a different muzzle end piece on it now and the barrel doesn’t have the flat on the end like the old Crosman barrels. And yes it’s accurate. One hole groups at 25 yards bench resting so far.
Gunfun1,
Thank God there’s no glowy thing! Sorry but I have a severe dislike for things that make good shooting harder than it is. Think I’m going to red dot one of mine and the other one is going to get a Redfield receiver sight that came off an old Savage 22/20Ga. OU. It fits the rails on the steel breech very nicely.
Was sitting here the other evening eyeballing the 362 stock lines on the PA website pics and I think it will probably be a real bear fitting wood to it! That third little piece of stock that the pump arm pivot bolt runs through looks like it would not be too much fun to replicate. Let me get a 362 in my hands and give me a few days to ruminate over it. I hate to say this but we will probably never see a wood stocked Crosman version of a 362. I think it would cost too much to produce.
Friday.
BobF
Alright it’s in.
Came with 100 bar in the tank, filled to 300 bar, mounted accessories.
Regulator is set to 2000psi from factory.
Letting it sit to check for leaks..
Now I have to go to work…
Bummer…
Ian
Ian,
My reg on the .22 bullpup is at the max of 2800 psi.
Half
.B.B. and Readership,
“The first shot went out at 769 f.p.s. Shot two went out at 721 f.p.s. For the first thirty-six shots on this fill those were the fastest and slowest shots. The average was somewhere around 732 f.p.s. Shot 37 went out at 719 f.p.s.”
Shot one and two Delta V is very likely a result of the Joule-Thompson Effect. One of the lesser known features of PCP repeaters and/or quick follow-up shots. For those of you that hunt it is very similar to the Cold Bore shot accuracy problem in firearms; that is do you zero to group results or to a series of Cold Bore shots.
shootski
Shootski,
After much thought and reflection I’ll have to go with the cold bore zero for hunting. I want something that will produce the dreaded ” Finger of God ” effect on game with that first trigger pull! The only time I ever heated a barrel up hunting was just dumb luck. My uncle and I were hunting grouse in upstate NY and we lucked into 08 or 09 birds that were feeding in a hawthorne thicket. Due to my prowess with the blunderbuss, many shots were taken but only one ever connected. Probably would have been better off using a 22 lr.
BobF
This was talked about earlier in the year but now it is in stock, /product/benjamin-gunnar-pcp-air-rifle?m=5328 a lot more price wise than the Avenger but with a large air tank and adjustable regulation it looks like a solid item, time will tell. Yes in .22 and .25.
Hope BB can get one on his plate (as if it is not full enough now) and show us how it does.
Mike
edit to add: earlier last year 2021, this year is only 12 days old.
Mike
I see that PA has been advertising it. I like it.
Bob
For sure glad they made the synthetic stock 362. But I do hope your wrong about a wood stock 362.
With all that technology out there now days I would think Crosman would have no problem making a wood stock for the 362.