Dragonfly Mark 2.
This report covers:
- Background
- Discussion
- What is learned?
- Summary
Today we do one small test that will teach us a lot about the Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle.
Background
I mentioned in Part 2 that I wanted to do this test, but not before the rifle had been pumped and fired many more times. Well, the accuracy tests in Parts 3 and 4 did just that, so the rifle is ready to be tested for velocity again.
You may recall that when I first tested the rifle with JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets on 3 to 15 pumps (the manual allows up to 15 pumps per shot) that, starting with shot number 10, the velocity didn’t rise as I expected with each pump stroke. In fact it looked like this.
Pumps…….Velocity
3……………..428
4……………..476
5……………..518
6……………..553
7……………..564
8……………..583
9……………..589
10……………602
11……………601
12……………617
13……………605
14……………617
15……………618
Then I returned to the same pellet at the end of the report and tested it again with 3 strokes, 8 strokes and 15 strokes, where I got the following velocities.
Pumps……..Velocity
3..……………475 (428 before)
8..……………611 (583 before)
15..…………..653 (618 before)
After seeing those numbers I said the following, “I am guessing that the next time we look at velocity with this rifle there will be more separation on shots 11 through 15.”
Today I do that test and we shall see. I will show the first velocity, followed by today’s velocity for each pump stroke, and of course I am using the same JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets.
Velocity Velocity
Pumps……..Then…………..Today
3……………..428…………….488
4……………..476…………….526
5……………..518…………….568
6……………..553…………….589
7……………..564…………….604
8……………..583…………….620
9……………..589…………….629 no air remaining
10……………602…………….638 no air remaining
11……………601…………….642 no air remaining
12……………617…………….649 no air remaining
13……………605…………….649 no air remaining
14……………617…………….657 no air remaining
15……………618…………….674 no air remaining
Discussion
Some of the things I thought would happen did, but some didn’t turn out as I expected, and that makes for a good test result. First — what did I expect?
I suspected the rifle needed a break-in period because of the result I got at the end of the Part 2 report, where it went from 618 to 653 f.p.s. on 15 pumps. We certainly got that. The 18.13-grain JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellet is now up to 674 f.p.s. Will it continue to increase? I would guess that it will. But the amount of the future increase will be smaller than what we have seen thus far. This pellet might increase to 685 f.p.s., or so, on 15 pumps after another couple hundred shots.
And by the way, that pellet traveling 674 f.p.s. generates 18.29 foot-pounds of energy. Remember, 671 f.p.s. is the “magic number” at which the weight of the pellet in grains equals the energy in foot pounds. I gotta tell you, guys, 18 foot-pounds is a lot of energy for a multi-pump pneumatic! Especially one at this price.
I did not expect the velocity to remain the same at 10 and 11 pump strokes on today’s test. I thought there would always be some separation, however small. But, unlike the very first test, the velocity never diminished. And it only remained the same for those two pump strokes — 10 and 11.
And I did test the rifle for air remaining after the shot. From shots 9 through 15 I cocked the rifle after the shot and pulled the trigger again — no air remaining.
What is learned?
This is the fifth report on the Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 multi-pump rifle. I consider this rifle an advance in multi-pump technology. It’s not perfect though. I can list several things I wish would change:
1. Change the front sight for a square-topped post.
2. Get rid of the rotary magazine and the single shot tray and just let this be a single shot rifle.
3. Make the rifle in .25 caliber.
Number two on my wish list will never happen, because people who haven’t used a multi-pump will see the rotary magazine as an advantage. And for some it really is. My brother-in-law, Bob, tells me he finds loading pellets singly hard to do, and I know there are people with neuropathy in their hands who feel the same, as well as people with large sausage fingers.
Number one should happen but probably won’t because many people enjoy shooting tin cans and other stuff for which a large dot sight works well.
I think we can look forward to number three. The developers aren’t dumb. They know the market and right now .25 caliber is a desirable thing. Of course when that happens people will start talking about .30 caliber and the beat will go on and on. And that is business at its best.
Finally, this rifle does need to be broken-in. Expect that.
Summary
Small test; big results. I see this report as a capper for those planning to buy a Dragonfly Mark 2. Will I test it further? You betcha! Certainly with a dot sight and perhaps with a scope if I can find one that will work. I have some ideas.
I’ve had a pre-order in since I saw it. Glad it’s shaping up nicely. I can say I’d only use a si gle shot tray.
If you were to test it further: scope it and put the donny on it.
“I can say I’d only use a single shot tray.”
Edw,
I, too, have one on pre-order; and I plan to use mine that way as well.
And I also hope to scope it…can’t wait to get it. 🙂
Blessings to you,
dave
14 fpe on 6 pumps seems as the best balance between effort and returning power. A scope must be easy to put since it looks like there’s enough space for a ring in front of the magazine slot.
B.B. we are looking forward to the next test as Edw suggested.
Bill
Nice catch. Unless you just want max power, That does look like a nice sweet spot for that pellet.
Doc
B.B.
I would think that loading a magazine would be just as difficult, if not more so, than loading the pellet in the breech. For those incapacitated people.
-Y
I am one of the few people that has the first dragonfly and likes it. I shoot mainly rats at night. The magazine is a game changer for me. The magazine allows me to reload in the middle of the night with a good brain fog going. If I was using a Single shot tray I would move from my shooting station and turn on the light to do a reload. With the magazine I can reload with with my eyes closed.
Bert,
I have a blog coming this week that I think you will enjoy.
BB
I look forward to it.
Also,
Maybe the fellow the invented the scissor style pump arm can be put to work improving the floor pump?
-Y
Yogi,
Improving the floor pump involves adding additional stages to it so as to ease the pump stroke. The problem with that though is each stage increases the pressure, but reduces the volume. You can more easily attain higher pressures, such as 4500 PSI, but it takes more strokes as a smaller volume is being compressed. It takes more pump strokes with a 5 stage pump to achieve 3000 PSI than it does with a 3 stage pump. It does take less effort per stroke with the 5 stage.
Personally, I like hand pump friendly PCPs. The Maximus is king at 2000 PSI. I also like the AirForce Edge. With its tiny reservoir it is nothing to pump up to 3000 PSI.
The sproinger operates at around 1000 PSI. You could probably get better from one, if your name was Hercules. With a sproinger it is much more critical to find the proper balance of all factors to make it an enjoyable shooting experience. It is no fun having a light gas sproinger slap you side the head.
P.S.: All that stuff flapping around on a hand pump would make some great pinch points.
Surprised “all that stuff flapping around” doesn’t cause pinch points with this rifle?
-Y
Yogi,
I chose not to mention it, but I have a long blood blister on the pinky finger of my left hand from a pinch I got when the pump lever closed and I wasn’t ready. I chalked that up to my own stupidity because I know better than to do things like that.
Still, it sometimes does happen.
BB
So a floor pump?
-Y
LOL! As BB said, sometimes it does.
I’ll bet it is nothing like a break barrel can do though.
This is indeed turning into an interesting air rifle.
RidgeRunner, yes; it surely is…I’m just not sure what has me so intrigued by MSPs…likely it’s partly a nostalgia thing, since that’s the first type of airgun I ever owned.
However, I did spend a very enjoyable afternoon plinking outdoors with my Haenel model 1, so I also understand your fascination with old lower-powered sproingers; the craftsmanship is great, plus they’re a ton of fun to shoot. 🙂
I am right with you, my first was a Benjamin 312 that was hand me down from my older brother.
As a kid I never shot it with less than 10 pumps. (I know better now) but I have always liked multi strokes.
And I could blow through a tin of Benjamin pellets on a Saturday shooting at cans hanging on strings…
Now, The smoothest inexpensive springer I ever shot was a Crosman Titan, the low powered model,
Tom had it on display on his table at the Texas Airgun show a few years ago and let me fire it at the range..
Easy to cock, just a quiet thunk when fired.
Definitely an all day plinker…
Ian..
“…my first was a Benjamin 312 that was hand me down from my older brother.”
Aw, man, that’s awesome! I’ve almost bought one of those a few times, but to get one as a family hand me down is much cooler! 🙂
I can certainly understand that nostalgia thing. These pumpers slow you down and since you have to flap around like a buzzard trying to get airborne, you tend to be more careful with your shots. That bushy tailed tree rat would probably laugh himself to death.
I really like to be able to taylor my output power to the needs of my situation.
I can understand that, most especially if you are inside a building. I have hunted pests inside my home before. I used an Edge or my Izzy. Low power levels with no damage to structure. I have a 101 that I am in the process of rebuilding. All airgunners should have at least one MP around. 😉
BB
I’ve seen enough to preorder. Just gambling that hoped for accuracy with good optics is not a bust. I ordered the .177 for more pellet selection since it seems to be pellet sensitive.
Thanks for testing this very interesting rifle.
Deck
B.B.,
This Dragonfly Mk 2 has renewed my excitement for air guns, which had been waning over the past year.
When I saw your Then vs. Now graph, I almost did a spit-take with my coffee! 3 more foot-pounds is huge. And who knows? 19 or 20 foot-pounds might be where it ends up after 300 or more shots.
.25 caliber? You bet, especially when one considers pneumatics’ tendency for heavier pellets to produce greater power increase percentages than one sees with other power plants.
I’d buy one in .25, no hesitation.
Michael
I am trying to be good and be happy with my Crosman 362…which is a lot of fun!
Ict815
I have not lost all interest in the 362 as it does have one very important thing to me going for it. Its not made in China! I am looking forward to it being reviewed too
Doc
Me too!
I just got my new Crosman 362, and am very pleased. Out of the box, pumped five times, shot at a metal target with a “bell” plate behind some apertures. Hit the one inch at 10 yd range, three times, from standing! Then, put up a paper target at 10 yds, shot off a bipod. Walked over to look, had hit a 10X bullseye, first shot! So far, I really like it. It’s kinda small, but feels completely solid. I think the peep sight is OK, and it may be worthwhile to add a metal breech and a scope. At $99, I am very impressed with this gun. Have not chronied, but it definitely packs a punch. Put dings in the 1/8 metal bell plate. Not too hard to pump at five. Will take eight.
BB,
Agree, the numbers do strongly suggest that a .25 caliber Dragonfly would be a real contender as a moderate range small game hunter.
For economic reasons, I’d go with a .22 for general use but I’m wondering what the numbers would be for a .177 caliber Dragonfly. Maybe Decksniper could chime in with that, I’ll ask him.
Noticed that the Dragonfly has a dovetail, how does it look for mounting a scope? Can the iron sights be removed for a clean barrel? Would a scope interfere with pumping? Maybe a Red-dot would be a better solution.
Hank
P.S.
Having been bombarded with so much in-your-face advertising recently I was dubious but I wanted to say that I find Pyramyd Airs’ advertising on the blog to be a convenient jumping off point for checking/purchasing products and I use it often. Thanks to them for hosting this blog!
Hank,
I just sent your comment to the president of Pyramyd AIR and to Tyler Patner, who is, if not the actual father of the Dragonfly Mark 2, at least he’s the shepherd.
BB
Hank,
I agree 100%. Pyramid Air is doing it customers a great service by sponsoring this blog.
What a wealth of information B.B. has stored up and lets it out slowly. Also, that their advertising here is low key. This is unlike when you order something, for the next months you are barraged with their e-mail junk spam. Yuck!
-Y
B.B.
I know I am beating a dead horse, but with every test of the guns my eyes get bigger. Then I get a little more flustered with Crosman for not using this (or doing a better job of it when they had it). The Benjamin deserves a wood stock and this pump style. At the very lest a polymer stock that doesn’t hinder shooting the darn thing, that is the reason we buy guns. The same for the new Crosman 362. The bean counters can claim what they want about cost, I wonder what it’s going to cost them if this gun keeps going as advertised. A loss for the home team. Thanks again for this report. It’s a winner for sure. Looking forward to the 25 cal
B.B.,
One of the most interesting things about this set of reports is how much they are being re-posted on other airgun forums, since it seems you are the only guy who has one yet. 🙂
Keep up the great work,
dave
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/new-dragonfly-mk2/
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=195443.40
https://www.giant-firearms.com/
Dave,
I don’t have time to read those other forums so thanks for letting me know.
BB
B.B.,
I know you’re too busy for that; plus, you would just be re-reading your own stuff. I just thought you’d find it amusing that the series is being passed back and forth on other sites…and, importantly, with correct attribution.
Thanks so much for this set of reports; the more I read, the happier I am. 🙂
Take care & God bless,
dave
If this thing will take an aperture sight on the receiver, it just needs a cool front mount for inserts to be
an FWB 600 killa’ at 25 yards, and a good run for the money at 10 meters. Willl it do .040″ ctc?
So its made in China, if it was made inGermany, it would cost too much. I guess its an evolution, not a revolution. It stands on its own merits.
Rob
I missed getting a Sig ASP before they disappeared. I’m not missing this one. Mine’s on pre-order!
Motorman
St. Louis, MO
Motorman,
Know how you feel about the Sig ASP.
I wanted one in .22 and hounded the Canadian Sig distributor unmercifully about availability. Turned out that Sig never bothered registering them for sale in Canada. Bummer!
Hank
Vana2,
Hey Hank Gunfun1 and I have been going back and forth about the ASP20 and I just shot this to him: “Gunfun1,
Thanks for the push! I found this: https://truegunvalue.com/rifle/sig-sauer/asp20-205253/price-historical-value-687
Helps understand the situation a little better.
Anecdotal value only (not statistical) airgun forum buy/sell/trade they seem scarce as hen’s teeth. So that tells us people are collecting them or shooting them like me!
I guess we should ask how many are showing up For Sale at airgun shows and what is being asked and given?”
Although I enjoy MSP enough to own at least three currently and many more over the years the SIG SSP ASP20 in .177 and certainly in .22 caliber has a substantial higher KE with less energy input than the Dragonfly Mk 2!
It also doesn’t slap the side of your head! Lol!
Wish that you could have gotten one or more and joined the few, the proud, the happy careful.
readers of B.B.’s Blog.
shootski
Shootski,
The .22 Sig ASP ticked off all the right boxes for me and would have been ideal as a heavy hitting springer to compliment my FWB124. A nice walk-about pester.
With several .22 PCPs to choose from I convinced myself that I didn’t need the ASP anyway but was still disappointed.
I was looking for a HW30 when a .22 HW50 showed up so I pounced on that. When I’m working downstairs I keep it by the basement door so it’s handy when I want to take a break and abuse a couple of spinners.
Glad that you managed to snag a pair of the ASPs!
Hank
“I was looking for a HW30 when a .22 HW50 showed up so I pounced on that.”
Hank,
I was all set to get a .22 HW50; but then I read a bunch of B.B.’s reports on his .22 Diana model 27; so I went and got the .22 HW30…and I was quite happy with it…till I read what you said here…now you’re got me wanting the .22 HW50, too. LOL 🙂
Cheers,
dave
If the Dragonfly2 was available right now in .25 caliber I would oder today. And yes I would even shoot the heavy 33.95 pellets in it.
The .25 Dragonfly needs to happen. And while I’m at it so does a .25 caliber 362. I would buy that gun also today if it was available.
What is funny that I see is that pcp’s, multi pump and Co2 guns have something in common.
They all have a sweet spot they operate in.
Yogi here is a shout out at ya. Yep springers are simpler guns that perform. But they do need work to get right too. But nothing like the 3 I mentioned power supplies. Springers do win this time about the guns mentioned. Simple but effective. Another Gunfun1 saying.
GF, I agree with you, it seems that a pellet shaped projectile of a certain weight will have a velocity it likes. Go too much above it or below that velocity, and it ain’t happy…
I will preface the next part by saying I ain’t a springer guy, I can shoot them, but I like the other power plants more.
Springers are the same way, but where we can vary our pressure with the others, springers are kind of fixed power, so we have to adjust the velocity to the happy place by pellet weight (the cheapest way) or retuning with aftermarket parts (the right way).
The only springers I have owned I liked were an FWB150, and an air arms prosport.
Oh, an FYI, there is a Tau200Jr co2 match rifle on the American airgun classifieds for a good price if anyone is interested.
I paid more that that for mine when it was new (pre internet days).
45Bravo,
Indeed you are correct that the speed and not mentioned the rotational reality setup by the barrel itself will very much affect accuracy. I saw this many years ago with a Crosman 2200 Magnum that would shoot very accurate with 7 pumps but would fall apart at 10 pumps with some pellets.
This brings up the PCP guns with adjustable pressure and hammer springs, yes it can make a difference.
Mike
45Bravo
Yep pellet weight does make a difference. And not only with spring guns.
BB
Does the DF MK2 have a choked barrel ?
Bill
Bill,
I don’t know. I rather doubt it because that is usually an extra step in the barrel-making process and has been shown to be of limited or no value when it comes to accuracy.
BB
BB
I’ve been led to believe a choked barrel to be more accurate than non-choked
but I’ve only just started down this air gun path, so much to learn.
I assume there are probably no newly manufactured multi-pumps with a choked barrel ?
I look forward to more of your findings on the Dragonfly Mk2, looks
very impressive so far.
Bill
Bill,
I may have been one to lead you in that direction. I believe that a report on choked barrels is in order. 🙂
BB
I look forward to the MK2 coming to market. The main reasons I love the Dragonfly mk1 I needed a multi pump that easily could take a scope and an LDC. Later I learned how much I appreciated the rotary magazine. With the sites gone on the dragonfly MK1 I came up with a system to pump mine up fairly quickly. (without getting pinched) I’m able to get a three or four pumps into the gun fairly quickly and have even been able taken a second shots on wounded rats. I love the way a Bug Buster fits on these guns. So I am looking forward to getting my hands on a MK2.
Bert,
They are showing in stock in .177 and .22, so grab one now. /product/seneca-dragonfly-mk2-multi-pump-air-rifle?m=5170#10357
Mike