Dragonfly Mark 2.
This report covers:
- How we got here
- From Val Gamerman:
- Find Bob Moss
- Dragonfly Mark 2
- What is it?
- How much easier?
- Cost
- The rifle
- Sights
- Pump effort
- How many pumps?
- Pump arm doesn’t click closed
- Trigger
- Summary
Well, this is the one you have been waiting for — the report on the Seneca Dragonfly Mark 2 — the pump-assist Dragonfly! And with the new format you know you’re going to get two straight days of it. Let’s begin.
How we got here
In 2007 an inventor named Bob Moss invented an EZ Pump Assist for the Benjamin 392. Bob worked with different manufacturers, but ultimately partnered with Air Venturi in 2017 to make his invention a reality. Due to COVID product development took longer than expected, but now, almost 15 years from the day Bob modified his first air rifle, his invention is finally going to become available to consumers.
From Val Gamerman:
“I reached out to Bob in late 2017 because we still saw an unanswered need in the market. A lot of us remember multi-pump pneumatic airguns, many folks know exactly what the 3-pump rule meant.
There is only one issue with multi-pump guns — they are notoriously hard to pump once you get past pump 6. Maybe you don’t need to be a Hulk, but you need to be fit in order to get any kind of meaningful power out of these rifles. Well, that’s exactly what EZ Pump ™️ solves. Not only does the pumping effort stay low (18 lbs), it stays constant no matter how many pumps you put into the gun.
Now you can get more powerful multi-pump pneumatic guns and they can be operated by a wider range of consumers, no matter how fit they are. Literally twice easier to pump, while you increase your muzzle energy more than ten percent.”
Find Bob Moss
At SHOT this year Val told me he tried to email Bob Moss and the message was returned as undeliverable. So guess what? He started searching for the phone numbers of every Bob Moss in America and he called them all until he found the right one! I know he says this started in 2017, but I thought you should know what it took to get it started.
There is a lot more to the back story, such as the years that Crosman worked with Bob to license and build what I once called a butterfly hand pump.
For several years Crosman pursued the idea of the butterfly pump-assist hand pump. It never reached production.
Dragonfly Mark 2
Now it is here. Air Venturi has made the pump assist multi-pump a reality with the Dragonfly Mark 2 rifle. Yes, they did toy with the idea of calling it the Butterfly, but that name didn’t sound right to them, plus there might have been some licensing issues.
What is it?
The EZ Pump uses a special sliding fulcrum pump linkage to change the leverage of the Dragonfly as you pump to make pumping easier. Let’s look at it.
As the pump arm moves, the fulcrum of the linkage changes to make pumping easier.
How much easier?
Here is a chart from the Pyramyd AIR website that shows the relative pumping effort.
Cost
When the pump assist Benjamin 392 sold in 2007 the cost was at least $100 greater than the cost of the 392. That made it $300 at the minimum. The Dragonfly Mark 2 sells for $200, Is that cheap? Who knows? It will be for some and not for others. But this time the rifle was built this way from the start — it’s not a modification of anything.
The rifle
I asked for a .22-caliber rifle to test for you. It also comes in .177.
I was surprised when I picked the rifle up out of the box. It’s heavier than it looks. My test rifle weighs 6 pounds 9 ounces. That’s close enough to the 6.5 pounds advertised on the Pyramyd website.
The stock is a hardwood of some kind. It’s tight and evenly-grained and shaped perfectly. The pump arm has a long finger groove and the pistol grip is evenly checkered with flat diamonds. Overall the stock feels slender which adds to the feeling of weight.
The overall length is 40 inches with a man-sized pull of 14-3/4-inches. The barrel is 22.75-inches long.
Sights
The front sight is red fiberoptic but the rear is plain black — hurray! The rear sight adjusts both ways but there are no click detents. There is a windage scale to refer to but the elevation has no scale. I just watch the daylight under the sight as it moves up.
The receiver is grooved for 11mm scope mounts, but the length of the groove is short, so scoping will take some thought. This might be a good candidate for that new Integrix 1-8X22 scope from Leapers.
Pump effort
The rifle must be cocked to pump up. Otherwise a blowoff valve dumps the air with every pump stroke. But can you leave a pump of air in the rifle to keep the valve sealed? You sure can! Just cock the rifle, pump it and then hold the bolt back as you pull the trigger and ride the bolt forward. That’s the way I will store this one. I store this one with two pumps of air.
You can see the chart of pump efforts, but I decided to pump it for you and test it myself — at least to 8 pumps. I was going to stop at 6, but pumping this rifle is like eating peanuts — you can’t stop! Go slow and even and it’s a breeze!
Pump….Effort
1…………….16
2…………….16
3…………….16
4…………….15
5…………….15
6…………….16
7…………….16
8…………….17
Speaking of storing the rifle, I doubt this particular one will be going back to Pyramyd AIR. BB has a thing for multi-pumps that are well made and this one is second only to my Sheridan Supergrade in terms of build quality.
How many pumps?
Here we run into something surprising. The website says to pump it 3 to 15 times. That’s right — fifteen times! When I talked to Tyler Patner about the rifle he said he was always stopping at 8 pumps because it was so powerful. Well, you know old BB is going to show everything to you, so I will pump it 15 times with at least one pellet, but I will also probably stop way before 15 pumps with most pellets.
Pump arm doesn’t click closed
What is the number one complaint of a multi-pump? After the pump effort, which the Dragonfly Mark 2 has solved, the biggest complaint is the loud click at the end of each pump stroke. This one doesn’t do that. The pump stops before the pump arm closes and the stop is both positive and repeatable.
The pump arm stops in this position after each pump stroke. It is almost completely quiet!
Trigger
You guys are gonna love this one because this rifle just keeps getting better. The Dragonfly Mark 2 trigger is two stage. Stage one is very long and stage two breaks crisply. And I do mean crisply. I don’t believe a lawyer has ever held this rifle!
Stage one of the trigger pull takes 2 pounds 14 ounces. Stage two breaks right at 4 pounds. Oh, go ahead and sit on your couches and gripe about the numbers if you want. I once saw reader Kevin guess that the 3-pound trigger pull on my Wilson Combat 1911 was one pound . That’s how nice this trigger is. It’s not adjustable and it doesn’t need to be.
Summary
Guys — we waited a long time for this one and now it’s almost here. Better get yours on order today. I don’t want to hear any whining and crying when the next batch arrives and is already sold out.
BB,
Second only to your Sheridan Supergrade in terms of build quality? TCFKAC (Crosman) better watch out! With a price a few dollars cheaper than a Benjamin Variable Pump Air Rifle, a wooden(!) stock that you don’t have to change, a trigger pull weight that Tom can actually measure (he only mentioned the Benjamin was heavy but breaks clean) and a receiver that is ready to mount a scope I cannot imagine anybody putting a complaint except for the weight (it is made of wood and steel anyway). Hopefully this will also be accurate to boot.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
TCFKAC cannot possibly compete with the Chinese. Most of this air rifle is assembled from common parts for the Stormrider, Chaser, Trailscout, etc. Although TCFKAC and other companies do this also, their labor and material costs are much higher than the Chinese.
Also, there is a very good chance that this company receives a government subsidy. How do you compete with that?
All good points, but it ignores the biggest problem TCFKAC has and that’s self inflicted.
By transferring so much of their manufacturing out of their hands they created competitors. Just like Dell created Asus.
First they bought commodity parts, then these American companies had foreign firms make sub-assemblies, then do the assembly, then start having input on design. Before they knew it they had exported not just the grunt work they thought they were saving on but the know how as well. Then they started just slapping their name on things they bought. Finally their competitors rose from the suppliers they used.
No amount of subsidy, labor cost, or material cost is as valuable as the know how and the experience of producing the item in question.
TCFKAC is doing the same with Benjamin. The new guns they are selling are Kral made. The gunnar for example is a Kral, that they claim to have had input on. Note, how that level of involvement keeps shrinking, from production to just design, to input on the design. Next they will be down to just selecting custom colors and stock materials. So expect in 10-20 years these Chinese brands to be dominant with the Turks hot on their heels.
TCFKAC can however turn this around, if they wanted to. The 362 is half the price of this gun and something similar could be implemented to it. They could go back to more in house production. They could turn Benjamin into a storied brand that makes top tier American airguns. They won’t, because they don’t want to. They like most American companies are run quarter to quarter, best case year to year. Their competitors are looking 5-20 years down the road and are happy with slim profits until they establish a foothold and go from there. Young men and old men who are young at heart look that far out, old men and those old at heart who are only collecting a paycheck until retirement don’t.
I want to make it clear that when I say this about TCFKAC I mean the decisions their management has made. There are lots of wonderful people busting their butts to bring us quality products and new designs. Any of them would likely make a better Executive than the current leadership that so clearly has no concern for the long term. If they do have that kind of concern then I am even more troubled as they seem to be going about it all wrong and have ignored the last 50 years of history.
“Just like Dell created Asus.” And just like Microsoft created Dell. And just like IBM created Microsoft. How IBM emerged from CTR and how CTR fashioned itself after NCR.
When did Microsoft sell Dell PCs re-branded as Microsoft?
Dell farmed out 100% of the production of some lines to Asus. They just had their brand stuck on the box.
The relationships you are talking about exist, but are not similar to the situation we see with Velocity Outdoors or whatever they are called this quarter.
StevenG,
You are thinking too literally. But that’s OK; I can do literal.
CTR was a literal amalgamation of three or four separate manufacturers in New York state. CTR renamed itself IBM. IBM appropriated the brand style and business model of NCR. Famously, IBM farmed out OS development to Microsoft. Microsoft became a brand itself. What OS is Dell’s OS evolved from? AppleMac? (Hah.)
So, IBM begat Microsoft, Microsoft begat Dell (and Gateway, etc.) Dell begat not just ASUS but every mom and pop IBM PC/AT/XT/WhateverT brand name that has been slapped onto a case since the mid-1980s.
Maybe you’re just not old enough. People between 50 and 80 remember a couple decades when there were TWO types of personal computer: IBM and Apple.
“What brand computer did you buy at Polk Bros. Appliances?”
“Acer.”
“Oh, that’s an IBM.”
By the late 1980s/early 1990s every tenth garage in the country had teenagers working after school assembling personal computers from components by 100 different brands manufactured by chained children in a handful of factories overseas. Then the owner of the garage would pay the teenagers beer money and slap “Joe’s Computers” on the case, and sell them mail order through ads placed in the back 3/4 of computer magazones the size of Manhattan phonebooks.
Anything more specific than that such as licensing, selling, merging, and so on is of no interest to me, although perhaps it could be the subject of a white paper on it someday.
Bottom line is ASUS is Dell larva and a second cousin once removed of Joe’s Computers.
Michael
You are missing the forest for the trees. None of these companies farmed out their core business. IBM didn’t hand over 90% of their production to Microsoft. Microsoft didn’t hand over the creation of the OS to Dell.
People between 50 and 80 must be getting pretty forgetful, BeOS stir up any memories for you? CPM? Unless you only shopped at Bob’s Appliance mart there were other options.
Dell also sells linux PCs, BTW. Using one right now.
Great, my complaint with the original Dragonfly was that it was not designed as a multi-pump but as a converted pcp. I hope the quality control on the barrel is better than the 1st gen.
Based on even a minimal dead space on the pump I can’t see much difference in velocity after 10 pumps.
There will be plenty of testing on this gun.
I will definitely be getting one.
Don
Don,
Well, I’m doing some of that testing today! 😉
BB
I have one on pre order. The first Gen I actually glued on a longer cocking aid. So they fixed the problem it seems. The addition of a threaded end fixes the sound issue
BB,
The rear sight is removable and gives you another piece of dovetail for a forward ring mount.
I think the front sight is removable also. The muzzle is also threaded.
If the glow worm sight up front is removable I will have to make room in my overcrowded airgun warehouse providing that dovetail has enough space to mount scopes.
Deck
Just throw that glowy thingy thing away. Space problem solved.
RR
Been pitching them in trash for years. No good for paper targets. Okay for defense against 2 legged targets trying to do you in.
At least the front sight is removable on this rifle if BB’s yes means that. I like this rifle but will wait for BB’s accuracy tests. If the barrel is like the one on my Chaser it should be okay.
Deck
RR,
Yes.
BB
BB-
To quote Arte Johnson of Laugh In- ‘Verrry interesting’.
Errata- The Rifle section, last sentence- ‘The overall length of (is) 40 inches…..’
But NOT “shtoopid.” ;^)
Crosman 362 or Dragonfly? The former is on backorder, and the latter is intriguing.
P.A. is finally shipping the backordered AirForce peep sight to me.
On the Dragonfly, if the pump is over before the forestock handle closes completely, then I am wondering, when you are done pumping and fully close the forestock, does it close with a snap at that point?
They are in stock at various places, including the OEM.
I just received an email notification that the Crosman 362 is on its way to me. So, they are back in stock at P.A.
Roamin,
There is a click when the forearm closes. I tried it during my testing for tomorrow and will report on it.
BB
B.B.,
Maaaaan! I want one in each caliber! This is as big — bigger — a deal to me than anything else I can rememeber. O.K. I am uncharacteristically speechless (typeless?). Uh, wordless.
I’m going to need some time.
Michael
I want a .25
Why is there no multipump .25 or larger?
Would it take a lot of pumps? YES!
Would it be a silly thing with no practical use? YES!
Would it be a ton of fun to have it in .25 or .30 or .45? OH HECK YES!
StevenG,
Ah! Now we understand each other totally!
I am with you 100 percent, Man. Today .25, tomorrow the world. ;^)
Michael
StevenG
Definitely would like to see a .25 caliber multi pump.
There is. The Aspen. I know it’s sold as a pcp, but it really is a pumper. Mine has been solid, but took a dump recently.
B.B. and Readership,
Lol! .25 caliber multi pump airgun. Don’t get me wrong I love multi pumps but just like the dream of HIGH POWER bigg(er) caliber airguns and a simple life is just a dream or a formula for a closet/safe full of QUEENS. The same can be said for multi pump .25 caliber and larger airguns.
Don’t believe me? Read this: /blog/2019/02/air-venturi-seneca-aspen-25-caliber-precharged-pneumatic-air-rifle-part-2/
Pay attention to what B.B. says and the NUMBERS; if you understand those FACTS it will save you years of trying to get a BIG BORE multi pump.
Hand pumps are way more ergonomic than an underlever (or any other lever) pump. That is why shootski crossed over to the Dark Side and used/uses SCUBA, SCBA, and CF Cylinders (have easy access to cheap dry dive air) in a Cascade system.
You REALLY don’t want a .25 caliber sproinger or multipumper!
For many of the same reasons; too much pump input required, too much volume, too much cost, invariably too little air to push the projectile out of the barrel.
shootski
Shootski
There you go again.
A .25 caliber multi pump would be a thumper. If it shot a 34 grain .25 caliber pellet at 450 fps it would thump a can into tomorrow. Same when hitting a starling.
Here’s a example. I have been popping plastic bottles and aluminum cans at 2 and 3 pumps with my 362 and it knocks them flying.
Why would you think you need max pumps to have fun with a .25 caliber multi pump.
Hey Gunfun1! Good to see you and a few others are still here. I’m just getting back and wanted to say hi!
RDNA
Still kick’n here. Good to hear from you.
Working that multi pumper handle can also be an opportunity for staying fit while having fun. Use it or lose it! Don’t forget to eat your Wheaties. 🙂
FM
That is true too. You just got to remember to switch arms or you will end up like Popeye. 🙂
Already have the popeye, so I’m halfway there.
FM
Yep get you a multi pump gun and start using that other arm. Don’t want walk around with one big arm and one small arm. 😉
FM is a fan of small arms. 😉
Is that one of FM’s famous puns. 🙂
“Small arms”
The Aspen really is a pumper at heart. Just one with a good pump. If it was beefed up a bit it would be the king of pumpers.
As for 25 springers… they have thier uses. And the ammo is cheap vs the .30 springer I have.
Edw
I think you might of been replying to my comment below to Shootski when I mentioned the Nova.
And yes the Aspen was the other one I was trying to think of.
Something about the diagram showing the pump effort difference between the gen1 and gen2 Dragonfly did not look correct to me. It finally popped into my head this morning. The pump effort on all multi-pumps I have tested or seen tested peaked out after 3 to 6 pumps. This is mostly because the leverage at the end of the pump cycle increases gynormously (alot). When B,B, tested the Dragonfly gen1 the pump force peaked at 46 lbs at pump 4 and remained there at pump 8 as high as he measured. 46 pounds is too much, I hope gen2 tops out at about half that.
Can’t wait for the report tomorrow.
Don
Gunfun1,
Yup! “There (I) go again.”
I didn’t write that reply for folks like you. I wrote it for the folks comming back to airguns who bought airguns as kids and kept pumping to valve-lock tossed the gunin a bin or closet and then joined the rest of their friends shooting .22LR!
You know not to expect uber magnum performance “If it shot a 34 grain .25 caliber pellet at 450 fps it would thump a can into tomorrow.” And, not knock over tall buildings at Supersonic velocities.
You know what some folks want!
WELL THEY CANT HAVE IT! With multipumpers.
Just trying to tell it like it is ;^)
shootski
Shootski
And as usual. We can’t always get what we want. But sometimes close enough is enough. 😉
Gunfun1,
See my reply to RG down below.
Thank you for being a great straight man ;^)
shootski
Party pumper pooper.
Roamin Greco,
Sometimes you need to wave a red flag in front of a bull.
I think there might be a way to combine the Bob Moss concept with a pre charged system!
It might need two or three stage regulation delivering PCP hpa(4,500 PSI) and a plenum with lower pressure air that the pump acts on and then delivers it to the valve as the metered shooting charge. At some point you would need to refill the hpa cylinder but it could be able to deliver a HUGE number of shots or some REALLY BIG power consistently.
Maybe some manufacturer will read this and see the possibilities.
shootski
Shootski
I thought there already is something like that. The Nova if I remember right and there is another that is basically the same gun but a different brand and name.. I wonder how hard they are to pump? If I remember right it only takes 2 or 3 pumps to maintain the resivour pressure.
B.B.,
I am so glad you are reporting on this really cool piece of engineering! 🙂
Looking forward to the rest on this fine rifle,
dave
BB, hope you are well, haven’t commented for a long time ,but I still follow the blog. MSP , are my favorites as the represent for me a simple user friendly air rifle platform . I bought an original Dragon Fly in .22 cal right after they came out, and you are right it was, and is a better MSP than any in my collection. This one will be a must have. BTW, I have a .25 cal MSP and that one is a rebarreled and modified Crosman 140 . Yes ,it is a thumper and when the original dragon Fly was discontinued, I was very disappointed as it was the raw material that was going to be my next .25 cal experiment. The old Crosman 101 was also used for some .25 cal conversions, and I believe Hector Medina made one up using a Crosman 2200, and used it for hunting. A .25 cal pellet like the well designed Benjamin RN ,is a superior hunting pellet at airgun hunting ranges ,which for me here in Western NY, are under 30 yards. Now ,just imagine what a .30 cal (.310 dia) RB going 800FPS in MSP form would do at that range and also allow for home manufacture of ammo? I know in warm weather, my Shark CO2 repeater is a excellent squirrel hunting gun for settled areas. The .22 cal RB and F size buckshot it uses are quite effective , and cheap given the present situation in ammo availability.
Robert,
Good to hear from you!
BB
Robert from Arcade,
Glad to see you posting!
See my reply above to RG…it might be a way to get to your MSP wish without needing to be the HULK.
shootski
BB, this is a cool gun, looking forward to more about it. It’s too bad about the Butterfly floor pump, I see a need for that but I would make the design lay flat on the ground, and have alternating foot pads to step on to get air pressure, too much like step aerobics? Plus, it makes no sense to want the minidragon fly pistol in .25. but a .22 would be also nice. I put a movable barrel weight on the Benjamin Marauder pistol to see about barrel harmonics but it’s too early to see anything, the wind is strong out there today.
Happy pumping!
Rob
Rob,
The stair stepper was done but never made it to market. It was too clumsy.
BB
I’ll guess the the floor pump didn’t get there because of the scissors action and the risk of cutting, crushing, and expense. Pumping up my tires to 120psi with a Silca floor pump hasn’t changed yet, I’m glad they didn’t need even higher pressure like on the track bikes.
R
Plus, now they are using larger diameter tires and lower pressures, like 80 psi. Less bouncing off of imperfect pavement, comfort, equals better time and traction.
R
That thing would look much better with a rear peep. The notch sight looks to be a little too far back to be useable.
Guess we’ll see tomorrow!
Ade C
That makes me wonder if the rear sight can be moved forward or back. If so that would help in mounting a scope like RidgeRunner mentioned.
As the rifle is based on a Snow Peak platform I’m assuming the rear sight is removable and it’s mounted on a short section of dovetail above the barrel band
Ade C
But will it slide forward or backwards on the barrel also? That’s what will probably need to happen to mount certian scopes on the Dragon fly 2.
Gunfun1,
Looking at the pictures on Pyramyd AIR it appears that there is a cutout in the stock for the barrel band. If you were to move it some woodworking looks required.
Mike
Mike
It’s hard for me to tell in the picture about needing wood work but you are probably right.
And I don’t know if you will see this. There was nowhere to reply to you.
Gunfun1,
Looking at some similar product diagrams it appears that there is a screw that comes up from the bottom of the barrel band to secure the pump/valve assembly, not really sure, the diagrams are not that clear. So if that is true then no it cannot be moved.
Mike
Mike
Maybe that’s like a setscrew that the Maximus uses on their barrel bands. Maybe it just snugs up to the pump tube. So you just loosen the screw and slide the band where you want it and snug it back down.
I would really like to know if it is possible to do that.
Gunfun1,
It may be just a setscrew, that would make it easier.
But a short scope may just fit on the receiver alone one ring in front and one ring behind the mag and give the eye relief needed for a good setup. Another option would be to bridge the gap between the receiver and the barrel band with a 11 mm to whatever adapter and add another adapter to the back.
Mike
Mike
Maybe so.
Hopefully BB will throw some info in on one of his next reports on the gun.
If it’s the same as other rifles in the same family (CR600/PR900 etc) then no, it won’t slide. It does limit scope choice a little, but a rifle like this is better with opens I think. Especially a peep!
Ade C
Why won’t it slide? They had to get it on there someway.
I think you’d probably need to add some inlets to the stock. They may have changed the design with this model though
Ade C
That’s what Mike in Atl was talking about in the picture he posted above.
If that is the case that wouldn’t bother me. Especially if it will allow me to mount a scope. Of course the location of it right now might be ok for scope mounting.
But then the next question is how high of scope rings will be needed. The top of the mag looks like it could interfere with the scope unless a high scope ring is used. But then again it does come with the single shot tray if you want to keep your scope low to the barrel.
“BB
Pump effort
The rifle must be cocked to pump up. Otherwise a blowoff valve dumps the air with every pump stroke.”
BB FWIW,
The reason the air is dumped when the bolt is NOT cocked, is that,
The hammer & spring rests on and holds the valve poppet open to allow the release of the pumped air, before the bolt is cocked.
When the bolt is cocked, the valve poppet is allowed to seal and retain air.
The hammer spring has an average spring weight of 18/19#’s,
and the valve spring is an average of 3.5#’s.
Also there is approximately .600″ – .750″ of dead air headspace between the end of the pump rod head and valve face, when pumping.
nvreloader,
I would like to do some calculations on the Dragonfly Mark 2. You seem to have some data on the specifications.
Do you happen to know the:
Pump tube inside diameter?
The pump stroke length?
The Valve Volume?
Valve intake orifice diameter?
If you don’t have the measurements not a problem I have a Mark 2 but have not taken it apart to get the measurements.
Thanks
Don
HI Don
This is the only information I have on my DF II-22Cal,
Please go here, https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=195725.0 this site pg’s 17 thru 20 have all the information I have learned from my DF II.
Hth’s