To all new airgunners

by B.B. Pelletier

As I write this report, Edith is sitting on the couch, reading and approving customer reviews of airguns. It’s a lazy Sunday morning, and we generally try to work on things that are easy on such days. She just made this remark to me while reading another customer review, “People want powerful hunting air rifles that cock with 20 lbs. of effort or less. Isn’t that called a precharged pneumatic?”

That was what came to my mind the minute she announced what people want. But experience tells us that it isn’t what’s on the new airgunner’s mind. They want a spring rifle, because they want nothing to do with all the extra stuff that’s needed to keep a PCP running. They just want to cock the gun, load a pellet and shoot. And many of them wonder why this springer can’t be a repeater, as well.

The question that’s often asked
Surely “they” could make a powerful spring-piston air rifle if they wanted to. All they have to do is make one that will go at least 900 f.p.s. [or whatever number seems best to them] in .22 caliber with real-world lead pellets and cocks with 20 lbs. or less. If they would make a rifle like that, I would be first in line to buy one.

Don’t you think “they” have been busily trying to do just that for the past 100 years? From the first moment someone cocked a spring-piston rifle (or pistol) that was a couple of pounds too heavy for them, they started thinking about designing exactly the rifle our hypothetical new airgunner has requested. And they haven’t done it, yet!

But there have been several good attempts. John Whiscombe, for example, broke the cocking sequence down to two or even three pulls of the underlever to cock his dual-opposed piston rifles. Owners of his rifles have not one but two coiled mainsprings to cock; and their efforts, while not quite doubled, have to be increased significantly. Which is why Whiscombe broke the cocking effort into two and even three strokes of the lever. The gun cannot be cocked with fewer strokes. If you try, it will remain in a limbo of a partially compressed set of mainsprings that cannot be relaxed, because they’re held in check by the safety mechanisms. So, a Whiscombe owner can’t cock his JW80 just two strokes for reduced power. It’s three strokes or nothing.

Rutten of Belgium used a small, high-torque electric motor to cock their spring-piston rifle with just the push of a button. Wonderful, you say, except now you’re tethered to the power grid, because the rifle cannot be cocked any other way than by its motor. And when you do push the button, prepare for the sound of an impact wrench for a couple seconds, because that little motor raises quite a ruckus! That rifle sold under the Browning name several years ago, and the reception, once people saw how it actually worked, was chilly at best. So much so that there are still a considerable number of Browning-trademarked new-old-stock rifles that float to the surface every so often, as yet another person wonders, “Why not?”

One approach that did work well is employed by Weihrauch in their HW45 air pistol that also sells under the name Beeman P1. The way it works is that you cock the barrel to the first detent (sear catch) for low power and to the second detent for high power. The cocking force remains approximately the same for both power levels. All that’s different is the length of the piston stroke. It works very well, and I wonder why manufactures are not using it on a rifle today. What’s apparently lost to many airgun manufacturers is that the power of the mainspring contributes very little to the power of the gun. What matters most is the piston stroke. Many springs do stack (increase) in force the farther they’re compressed, but that’s not a universal rule. It’s possible to make a spring that provides a near-uniform force throughout its compression, as Weihrauch has done in the HW45.

Back to the question
We’re discussing why nobody makes a powerful spring-piston air rifle that also has a very light cocking effort. This is a question that many new airgunners ask, not realizing that physics stand in the way. A pellet fired from a spring-piston gun produces only a fraction of the power generated by the mainspring, so that’s the limiting factor. Making the mainspring more powerful is the brute-force way of making a gun more powerful, and it’s the practice that’s in vogue today.

What about a gas spring?
One question that often follows the main one is why wouldn’t a gas spring (gas strut, gas ram) work? To understand why it wouldn’t, you have to shoot a gun that has one. Gas springs exert their full potential from the instant you start cocking them. So, instead of a gun that requires 34 lbs. of cocking effort but starts out at 15 lbs. at the beginning of the cocking arc where the leverage is poorest and you’ll need all the help you can get, the gas spring has 34 lbs. of effort right from the start. Gas springs are never easier to cock than coiled steel mainsprings — they’re always harder, or at least they’re perceived as harder because of how they work.

Where does that leave us?
If you want real power from a pellet rifle and you also want the rifle to be lightweight and easy to cock, the precharged pneumatic is the only way to go. No spring gun ever made can keep up with a PCP in the weight and ease of cocking departments. A Benjamin Discovery weighs just over 5 lbs., yet in .22 caliber it puts out the same power as an RWS Diana 48 that weighs 3.5 lbs. more and cocks with 10 times the effort. If you’re a regular reader of this blog, you already know about the AirForce air rifles, some of which will produce as much muzzle energy as a .22 short, with long-range accuracy that not even a $3,000 Olympic target rifle can match.

My message to new airgunners
The question that you have asked is the same one that’s been asked by airgunners for decades. It’s not that airgun manufacturers have overlooked anything or that they’re holding back, like the inventors of the 100-mile-per-gallon carburetor did in the 1960s. They’re stuck on the physics of the problem. You can’t get more work (foot-pounds of energy) from a shot than the force that’s put into the shot. With a spring-piston airgun powerplant, you’ll get significantly less energy out than you put in.

Can things be done to reduce the cocking effort? Maybe. Has everything been tried? Perhaps not. But if you want to get the greatest power from a light air rifle that cocks easily, you definitely want a PCP — not a springer!

97 Responses to “To all new airgunners”

  • kevin Says:

    Great article that a first time airgunner should read several times. Mr. / Mrs. new airgunner let this advice sink in. It will save you heartache and money at the same time.

    In addition to cocking effort’s relationship to power I wish there was the same emphasis placed on the corrrelation of power in a springer vs. accuracy. Yes! We all want the most power BUT there is a price to pay when it comes to accuracy. There is great difficulty in mastering accuracy since in typical springers as power increases so does the level of skill necessary to shoot these guns accurately increase.

    Please let me use a firearm analogy to put a finer point on my main topic since I think many first time airgun buyers can relate to firearms.

    If you had or a friend had an interest in a centerfire rifle would you suggest that that their first purchase be a .460 Weatherby? No, of course not. They should “evolve” into this magnum. Most of us cut our teeth on rimfires and worked our way up not just because of recoil but because we learn about trajectory, hold, glass, windage, ammo/loads, etc.

    Just because you/I/a friend have/has great firearm experience doesn’t mean this translates to being able to purchase a magnum springer and being able to master it based on your self awarded PHD of acquired firearm shooting and reloading experience. I know, because I had this arrogance. I’ve been humbled by airguns.

    Airgun FT, Benchrest, Sillouette, etc. competitions/challenges set the bar for airguns very high. An accurate airgun using these benchmarks today needs to shoot a 10 shoot group at 55 yards that can be covered by a quarter. Many tuned springer guns are capable but the shooter is the weak link. This is tough even with the best ammo, best set up scope and best conditions.

    You evolve to this level you don’t begin with a magnum airgun.

    Do yourself or a friend a favor (no matter what their firearm experiences) and tell them that spring airguns are a fun venue since they can avoid significant ammo costs, usually allow you to shoot everyday on your property (check local laws but at the very least you can shoot indoors) and will enhance your firearm accuracy since you’re getting in more shooting practice. Don’t spoil your experience or your friends experience in airguns by starting out with the firearm equivalent of a .460 Weatherby.

    kevin

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Kevin,

      Woo boy! I guess this lit your fire!

      The same thing happened to me and I had to write this report. I get the same question from younger airgunners all the time. They want the “mostest powerfulest BB gun made.” These are the same shooters who are bonded with the ARs. The sad thing is when I read a customer review from one of them who actually does get what he thinks he wants — and then discovers what you and I know to be true. They cock too hard, kick too much and can’t hit anything.

      If only we could put a Beeman R8 or an FWB 124 in their hands, or best of all, a Diana 27 that’s got a properly adjusted trigger!

      B.B.

      • kevin Says:

        B.B.,

        Yes, you hit a nerve. You’re very proficient at hitting the bullseye in your topics.

        I’m passionate about introducing airgun shooting to everyone. Not only does it provide a vehicle to develope a skillset I think everyone should possess but it also affords an opportunity to teach/learn about safe gun handling and responsibility. Qualities that build character.

        The purchase of your first airgun is so critical. I know many folks that walked into the local big box sporting goods section and bought a box that happened to contain and airgun since the box said, “1500 FEET PER SECOND! VERY POWERFUL!” Once they got the plastic fantastic airgun home, the cocking effort and inaccuracy resulted in the gun being put in a corner and their view of present day airguns became one of disgust. Another potential airgunner alienated.

        I want to spread the word that in airguns there are so many more choices than what you see at your local big box and most of them are better. Define your needs……

        Want an accurate airgun with a good trigger, is easy to cock, that won’t break the bank and can be used to teach your kid how to shoot responsibly ? Your first gun should be a bronco.

        Have a pest problem that requires long range accuracy and power? You probably need a pcp.

        kevin

    • kevin Says:

      /Dave,

      Thanks. In hindsight I should have said “…being able to master it QUICKLY…” Of course many folks can master the ARTILLERY HOLD to be able to shoot a powerful springer accurately but it’s not automatic no matter how many firearms you’ve shot. As we know.

      kevin

  • twotalon Says:

    Well, I guess we could spend the rest of the week talking about everything that everyone wants, or what everyone thinks they are getting……until they read the fine print or find out in real life after the purchase. So many hopes and expectations down the drain. Even more hopes and expectations down the drain when they get a chrono check or find out that it does not shoot like a laser for over 100 yds with pinpoint accuracy……

    twotalon

  • se mn airgunner Says:

    I am surprised at the desire for low cocking effort. I figure that most owners of powerful spring/gas air rifles are adult men…I could be wrong. I own a Nitro Venom Dusk .177 and cock it easily. It chronies at 925 fps with 7.4 grain crosman pointed “cheapies”, so I don’t think I have a lemon. I don’t think of myself as “strong”…just an average guy. I wouldn’t mind a harder cocking gun for more power. But I’d have to go to a .22 because I understand that when it reaches close to speed of sound it becomes less accurate? And I shoot my gun A LOT. But never feel exerted.

    Full disclosure: I live in MN farm country, so most of my neighbors are STRONG! I grew up as a soft city kid. Maybe everything is relative.

    • twotalon Says:

      Part of it (or a lot of it) may be because of this….
      Cocking springer is usually a motion that most of us are not used to with any degree of effort applied. Takes time to get used to it and build up the right muscles. Same with pumpers.

      twotalon

      • se mn airgunner Says:

        There is definitely technique involved. I brace the stock against my leg and make sure to hold the barrel way at the end for the best leverage.

    • Pete Hallock Says:

      As we age, we lose strength. Forty or more pounds of cocking effort is no issue at 30 or 40 years of age. But it is an issue for the elderly. And pre-teens as well.
      Pete in California

      • se mn airgunner Says:

        I’m 42, so yes, I don’t feel as if I’ve lost much strength yet. I may be fatter, and in terrible shape, but I’m not weaker yet. Good point.

    • Primo Says:

      Try out the Gamo Socom Extreme it will change your opinion.

  • Pete Hallock Says:

    Superb blog ! This may go on forever, indeed. We can muse, though, for why linkage of more than one cocking arm, as I think ( think..is rare at my age.) I read that certain HW and the throw away cheap priced Gamo Big Cat “seems” to enjoy low cocking force vs. Pellet FPS. Give me a lever long enough and a properly placed Fulcrum, can lift the earth …kind of thing.
    Pete in California

    • /Dave Says:

      Pete,

      I agree about the fulcrum and lever. Be a heck of a long lever though. On the HW’s… It’s definitely not the HW90 that’s easier. At least not mine… I have one and it’s a freakin’ workout to shoot for any length of time. Heavy AND hard to cock… It’s the gun that made me buy a mono-pod. I get almost the same power out of my Izh MP513M as I do the 90 with much less effort. About 18 ft/lbs for the 513@5500 ft elevation vs about 19 ft/lbs for the 90 (both in .22). Although, the 513 is MUCH harsher shooting (partially because it’s so light), it is also very accurate.

      /Dave

  • Fred DPRoNJ Says:

    BB,

    better asterisk this blog. It definitely should go in the book on airguns we’ve all be pleading with you to write :)

    Fred DPRoNJ

  • Desertdweller Says:

    Great blog today, BB.

    Since cocking effort of springers is such an issue, why can’t some of the guns requiring more effort use some type of mechanical advantage to lessen effort? Maybe a rack and pinion, or linkage allowing a greater arc of lever swing?

    The best solution to hard-cocking springers in my experience is simply to use them more. They may not require less cocking effort over time, but the shooter gets used to it (maybe even gets in better shape).

    Les

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Les,

      Both Whiscombe and our our duskwight do use a rack and pinion arrangement.

      I agree that use is key to better operation, but when a guy gets buffaloed by a powerful new air rifle he usually wants to get rid of it.

      B.B.

      • Edith Gaylord Says:

        Everyone,

        As you may have noticed, duskwight hasn’t been posting recently. He emailed me yesterday and said he can’t bring the blog up. He thought we were offline. Hopefully, he’ll be back with us soon. In the meantime, he’s been doing some work on the trigger for his Duskcombe rifle :-)

        Edith

        • Titus Groan Says:

          Thank you Edith, for this information about Duskwight. I have been waiting with bated breath since Duskwight posted the pictures of the ” main parts ” of his gun. I do believe we are witnessing history here. Youtube is filled with videos of homemade pcp’s, which are usually just pvc pipe and garden valves. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with this approach. It’s just that Duskwight’s gun is on a whole other level with his cnc parts, blue prints, etc. I hope he finds a way of logging on soon. Thanks again.
          Titus

    • Wulfraed Says:

      Considering that some break barrels already swing 160-170 degrees there isn’t much room to apply a reduction linkage (barrel link move 2 inches for 1 inch at piston spring).

      The RWS m54, however, only swings about 135 degrees as I recall… But extending that swing would mean the lever would be coming close to the butt-plate. That would be a rather difficult motion to pull off efficiently and in one stroke: start with the recoil pad on your hip, reach up to head height to grab lever and pull out and down… and then finish the stroke by /pushing/ down and in toward the hip you are bracing the stock against?

  • cowboystar dad Says:

    Another thing that the newbie needs to understand is the range at which airguns are effectively accurate.
    I remember my first good airgun back in the mid 80′s…a very nice sidecocking Webley. I wish I still had it because I do remember it being beautiful finished…but it ended my airgun hobby before it even began.
    I fell prey to a salesman who told me that it was very powerful…a great gun for pesting.
    Thinking back…mid 80′s…though I can’t remember its specs I’m thinking a maximum of 700 or so fps.
    Anyways…took it out a few times to a friends farm to help him rid the area around his farmhouse of pigeons that were pooping on everything.
    Set up in his backyard on 3 or 4 separate occasions and hit nothing…though there were tons of targets using his barn as a roost.
    Lost interest pretty quickly, figuring these air rifles were just a POS…after all, if I’d been able to take out my .222 I know I would have dusted all of them (my friend had a thing against powderburners…didn’t like ‘em at all).
    He still lives there…went out to visit him last year and lazed the distance from his back yard to the barn…140 yds.
    But the salesman had told me it would be easy.

  • Vasco Says:

    HI BB

    I have an Umarex Perfecta P47; the one that looks like an AK47 (I think it is a Chinese rebranded gun). Its actually quite impressive: sturdy, not too heavy, compact (with a folding stock, just like a special forces assault rifle), bear trap- and trigger safeties and nice open sights, but with a scope rail. Accuracy is fair, but what impresses me the most: a fairly short side-cocking lever that is VERY easy to cock, but still manages to shoot 6.8 gr lead pellets at 650 fps. My Beeman P1 shoots the same pellets at 500 fps, but is not as easy to cock! You can also clip a sling to it, so it is easy to carry around all day. It is also very inexpensive, but you do pay for that with a poor trigger. Nonetheless, I think this is an excellent little gun for a first time airgunner. It’s obviously far from perfect, but you can do MUCH worse!

    Any comments? BB, do you know this gun?

    Regards from South Africa.
    Vasco

    • cowboystar dad Says:

      Vasco, your gun is a BAM B3 variant. There are a couple of B3′s, one of which is your AK lookalike.
      They get mixed reviews because like a lot of Chinese air rifles, you may get a wonderfully accurate, dependable gun…and the next one off the assembly line might be a piece of unmitigated crap.
      But the basic gun is good in my opinion. We have three of them (I have two young sons who like the military styling) and all have operated well, though all three have had the odd QC issue…a popped rived on the cocking lever of one right out of the box, a lot of marks in the bluing of another…that sort of thing.
      But as you’ve noted, they are fairly hard hitting and quite accurate with the supplied open sights. All three of ours have no problem with 2-3″ groups at 30yds offhand with the open sights. And this is in the hands of an 8 and 11 year old.
      Once the niggling little things were sorted out (the popped rivet and such) all three have seen thousands of pellets without a hiccup.
      From me the get a solid 3.5 out of 5 (4.5 out of 5 when you consider the price)

      • Vasco Says:

        That cocking-lever rivet seems to be a problem. Mine also broke when the gun fell on the cocking lever, but it was easily fixed. Other than the amazing muzzle velocity (for the very light action), the appearance is a selling point. It looks different from all the other affordable (and even the more expensive) springer airguns, which pretty much all look similar, with synthetic or wooden stocks, blued steel in a traditional rifle shape. Don’t misunderstand me, I love a traditional airgun with a wooden stock, but you can fit lasers, scopes, torches etc (even an AK47 bayonet, if I am not mistaken) to it, making it more interesting for first-time airgunners while retaining a good, simple product.

        Regards
        Vasco

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Vasco,

      What Cowboy Star Dad said.

      B.B.

    • Vince Says:

      FYI – when they refer to your gun being a BAM B3, they are not talking about the INDUSTRY B3 underlever. The BAM products were generally superior. It’s mechanically similar to the old TS45…

      http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/01/im-from-china-do-you-know-my-name/

  • David Enoch Says:

    Hi BB,
    There are two answers to the question; 1. a PCP and 2. a 22 rimfire. I think a firearm is the answer to a lot of the questions. For most people, airguns will never take the place of firearms. They are just not up to the power levels or ease of use that a firearm provides.

    It is hard for beginners to get their heads around the capabilities of the different airgun power plants and different build qualities. It doesn’t help the beginner to see the lucky brag groups we often post that the beginner thinks he will achieve if he just buys that gun. Of course manufacturer’s own literature causes another source of expectations that will not be realized by most shooters. I think one of the values of your blog is that it post your real life experiences. It shows that even though someone has posted tiny groups shot with a specific gun that maybe we should not expect that every time.

    David Enoch

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,
    There isn’t much difference from centerfires — most people always get the most powerful thing they can with little consideration of other factors. I don’t think most people really _want_ a magnum springer, they just want the power, and they don’t want to spend more for a “BB gun”. I think your Discovery was the right direction to take to attract more of us dissidents, but the airgun makers seem to want to go “upscale” rather than open up a larger market. I was looking at a Savage Mk.II F .22LR in Walmart (yay — they have guns again! I’m excited just on principle). Why does a PCP cost more than that? Even at the same price, you need to buy a pump, and it would never match the potential power and accuracy of the rimfire. I sincerely doubt Savage has fewer liabilities or higher profit margins than an airgun maker, but they stay in business on volume, whereas the airgun makers seem to want to stick to their niche. Sure, many airgunners are picky and whiny, but if they think they are getting the best of class, they’ll pay top dollar and there aren’t enough to cause much trouble. It is a boutique industry.

    What I’d like to see is a company like Savage tackle a PCP in house and churn them out in volume. I know it sounds awful, but I think that is what it will take to make airguns and PCP’s in particular go mainstream. I bet money that after a troublesome first model, “mark II” would be the last we’d see of pellet-picky barrels made to whimsical specifications; likely by the second generation there would be regulators on board and some shakeups in the pellet industry (e.g.,why does one need to buy a carboard box of pellets to get good ones). I suspect the pump is the sticking point, but there is nothing in it that couldn’t be manufactured more cheaply in large volume. Anyway, I think then the new “airgunners” (who wouldn’t be accepted by the “old airgunners”) would be happy, even if the stocks were tupperware or crate-wood — the rifles would work and be competitive in price. Anyway, the point of the ramble is that the airgun industry really isn’t set up for anything but the “serious airgunner” and they only make token gestures at the larger market of shooters, cynically picking the low hanging fruit, so to speak, but at the same time polluting the pool. Am I wrong? Keep in mind, my position is painted with broad strokes for emphasis :).

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      BG_Farmer,

      All I know for sure is that there is very little that I do know for sure.

      B.B.

      • Pete Hallock Says:

        B.B. and Edith ! Thumbing through my new Pyramyd Air Catalog that arrived today ( Vol.1, 2012 )
        Terrific job ! Specially welcome the B.B. Sidebars for the benefit of newbies. There is so much to learn for someone starting out from their Red Ryder days. I’m typical. After ten or more pellet rifles plus reading B.B. Blogs, we are starting to understand what is best for each individual.
        Best Regards and thank you !
        Now, back to the catalog…’cuse me..
        Pete in California

  • Feinwerk Says:

    Hello BB et all,

    I want to try the BSA 2X20 scope on my P1 and read your test from 9/20/11 with great interest. Why did you use intermediate 11mm-to-weaver risers plus weaver rings? Why not just use the BKL 1″-11mm rings?

    I also used to think that a scope on a pistol was pretty silly until I got a pistol that could really shoot accurately with some power. My P1 makes about 575 fps using JSB Exact RS 7.33 grainers. Having the extra mass of a sight and rings on this pistol reduces frame jump and makes it easier to shoot more accurately.

    I have been using a UTG dot sight and a two-handed grip right from the start. After much initial frustration, experimentation with grip and practice, I have finally progressed to the point where I need a more precise sight at ranges beyond 20 yards.

    Like you, I rest both forearms on a folded towel, with my hands and gun extending unsupported beyond it. The grip itself needs a little more explanation and probably a photo, but I keep both thumbs OFF of the frame and do not use any opposing grip tension between the hands.

    Regards,

    Feinwerk

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Feinwerk,

      Why did I do that? I don’t remember. It might have been that when I did the test the rings were not available. The P1 has super-wide dovetails, so most rings won’t fit. I think that was the reason I did what I did.

      As for the right grip, just let the gun bounce around as much as it wants to and your groups will shrink. In that respect the P1 is exactly like the 1911 pistol it copies.

      B.B.

  • Matt61 Says:

    So with the Whiscombe, three strokes for cocking, but don’t you dare dry-fire it or your $4000 gun is ruined. Don’t think this is the rifle for me . . .

    Hold on about the limitations of the spring-piston and the cocking mechanism! Don’t forget the Gladius springer with the counter coiled chromium-steel spring wound around the cocking lever so that you can cock the most pwerful rifle with a flick of your wrist . . .

    Chasblock, right on. Stacey Greene is the most awesome PA tech which is saying something.

    I just received the glossy new PA catalog the other night in the mail, and I see that I am behind the times. Gone are the days of my obsessive searching for guns to buy. Now, I see that a whole new generation of guns has arisen that I’m barely familiar with. The general quality seems to have gone up. The Walther FT for under $1000 looked most impressive.

    In other news, I heard about another unusual gun personality. My brother told me that he scratched something off his bucket list. While his wife is away traveling, he took the opportunity to fire handguns for the first time. (Sounds like some of you guys. :-)) The guy who introduced him to guns has two Ph.D.s, one in electrical engineering and another in a related field, and an M.B.A. He lives modestly, but when Obama was elected, he bought up 10,000 rounds of ammo. He also happens to be a friend of the bogus Vietnam sniper whom we have smoked out. However, this guy seems to be legitimate. He showed my brother what sounded like a Ruger Mk II pistol and a Beretta 92. They were shooting at 7 yards and the guy could group 6 rounds in 3 holes at his best. Not bad. Then came the statistic of rounds fired. In the four years since the guy purchased his first gun, the Beretta, he has fired several thousand rounds in that gun and a few others. Ha, a mere nothing compared to the 110,000 rounds I’ve racked up with my airguns in about the same time. :-)

    Matt61

    • Frank B Says:

      Matt…I have adhered to a safe method to insure I NEVER dry fire the Whiscombe.I always load a pellet
      but leave the breech lever open! Then I charge the lever three times,close the breech….flick off the safety while shouldering.
      I am poor enough that I can’t afford to break it.It should be noted that the breech MUST stay open if a pellet is in the breech,if you close it before charging the cocking lever the resulting vacuum would be almost like a dry fire.
      Come to think of it…..maybe I should have a chaparone when I shoot it…LOL

  • duskwight Says:

    Vodka to everyone! We must celebrate it, American comrades!!!

    Well, time to speak earnest, 20 minutes ago I made a final small step to finish – and a giant leap to another phase of my project.
    My Mk 0 engine made first working cycles – from cocking to releasing. I installed weak 40-kg springs for testing purposes. Engine was plugged with channel restrictor, to simulate live fire load and prevent dry-firing risks, so it was rather short and vile loud “hiss!” instead of “pop”. And this happened for 5 times in a row, clean and sharp like scalpel ;)
    What else a man needs to be happy?
    B.B. I thank you for your blog, you were the first source of inspiration for this whole project. And thanks to all blog readers – your support and trust gave me strength and courage to carry on.
    We’ll see how it’s going to end – very soon, I hope.

    duskwight

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      duskwight,

      Welcome back! Edith told us you were having trouble seeing the blog after returning home from vacation. You know what that means? NO MORE VACATIONS FOR YOU! :D

      B.B.

      • duskwight Says:

        B.B.

        Yes there were troubles yesterday, but they seem to be over.
        I think no more vacations before the job is done – and then I think testing it would be the best vacation ever ;)

        duskwight

        • Desertdweller Says:

          Congratulations, Duskwright! You have conquered the most difficult part.

          Everything else should be easier, right?

          Les

        • Titus Groan Says:

          Welcome back Duskwight. I trust you had a well deserved holiday. As my Mother would say, ” All work and no play, make Jack a dull boy ” Or something to that effect. Glad to hear the Engine is purring along on all springs. Looking forward to those first “real” shots at some paper. Got my fingers crossed. Just curiosity, what type of pellets have you made this rifle for?
          Caio— Titus

          • Frank B Says:

            That is just awesome Duskwight.You have my greatest respect and admiration.I want one!

            • Frank B Says:

              And Duskwight,I will volunteer to test it in our North American atmospheric conditions ! (just to be thorough).

              • duskwight Says:

                Frank,

                That would be _tricky_ at least :) When everything is done and tested I can send you Mk.0 blueprints so all you have to do is to find a good machine shop and make your own Duskcombe to test :) In the meantime i’ll build and test Mk.1 and so on and so forth.
                However I think that bringing tester to the the rifle would be much cheaper and faster. Weather and atmosphere conditions are quite the same in Northern US and Russia but I guess the overall experience would be a bit different.

                duskwight

                • Frank B Says:

                  Man,you sure took me serious! I was just having fun with you my friend…..of course the air is the same! It just sounded like I would be doing you a favor,instead of the inverse.

          • duskwight Says:

            Titus,

            Since I’m planning to use it for airgun benchrest and due to large compressible volume (that I hope I will use effectively) I think that would be heavy .177s.

            duskwight

    • Mike Says:

      That sounds great! Soon to be the Kalashnikov of airguns?!

      Mike

    • GenghisJan Says:

      Simply brilliant, duskwight! Can’t wait to see and hear more about your progress!

      It’s 9am here in Baltimore, so I will hold off a few hours before joining you in the vodka toast…

      -Jan

  • john Says:

    I have a condor. I can definitely say it’s easy to cock, fun to shoot ans more accurate than any air gun I have ever seen before. One thing you are missing here is the hidden effort in shooting a pcp airgun. I’m not able to afford a $4000 air compressor and not planning on jugging around a scuba tank as I hunt, even if I leave it at a muster point. I use a hand pump. I might have a light cocking effort but pumping that gun up to 3000 psi is a real bear of a task. I’m 6’1″ and a solis 224 pounds and as I go over that 2000 psi mark I’m needing to put all my 224 pounds into getting to 3000 psi. By comparison my most powerful airgun which is a .22 cal big cat takes just a fraction of that to repeatedly shoot over and over. When an airgunner complains about a spring gun being rough to cock, I’d seriously hope you would point out the hidden effort the pcp guns have. That pumping effort gets even tougher in the summer noon time sun in a place where we can see up to 100% humidity like where I live, 5 miles from Lake Michigan.

    • twotalon Says:

      Who would have thought that filling up a PCP would be work? ……Oh yeah…..I guess I would too.

      twotalon

    • Wulfraed Says:

      You’ve got me worried now…

      While the 2000-2500PSI range is an effort ( starts to need body motion), it is the 2500-3000PSI range where I have to fight (though having gained five pounds since January may help)… I have to “lock” my thumbs at my belt-line, and use my 180 (+) weight to depress the handles.

      I’m waiting on the review of that Crosman cantilever pump to appear…

      OTOH — how many shots is one expecting to use on said hunting excursion?

      • john Says:

        Depends on what you are hunting and how many of them there are. Groundhogs might take 3 shots on a good day if you don’t miss. Muskrats might need 4 shots. Squirrels all have a bad case of ADHD so figure on 10 or so shots. I get bored as the day goes on so I begin target shooting so I use considerably more so I bring my pump with me. If all you are going to do is hunt, you have enough air for the day.

        If you don’t see anything to shoot that day, then if you are like me you put out the prarie chuck targets at different distances and throw out a few reactive ball targets and do some weapon familiarization.

        • Edith Gaylord Says:

          John,

          Yikes! I’d hang up my guns if it took that many shots to dispatch critters. One shot, one kill should be the norm not the exception. You’re either using underpowered guns or shot placement is not what it should be.

          Edith

          • john Says:

            You are very right. I fear I was misunderstood. 2 shots=2 dead groundhogs. 4 shots= 4 muskrat bodies ect. The only exception as I get older is squirrels with their ADHD. Sometimes they move faster than my aging reflexes and I miss so I have to try again. I didn’t get invited to the U.S. Army C.A.T. team for sloppy marksmanship. (for those of you that don’t know, that’s the military equivalent of the olympics.)

            • Edith Gaylord Says:

              John,

              I’m confused by your reply. You said this in your original comment:

              “Groundhogs might take 3 shots on a good day if you don’t miss. Muskrats might need 4 shots. Squirrels all have a bad case of ADHD so figure on 10 or so shots.”

              It’s obvious you were talking about dispatching one groundhog, not 3. One muskrat, not 4. One squirrel, not 10.

              Edith

              • john Says:

                Ok. I suppose I should clarify then. Groundhogs are a wary animal especially where I hunt. On one hunt I got 2 with one shot. I didn’t see the second one behind the one I was aiming for. Thats shot #1. Shot 2 was a groundhog a foot from the hole on the lookout. A very tough shot considering there was a small cabin behind it I am trying not to hit. He saw me as I took the shot and shot in the hole causing a miss .22 caliber 950 fps 35 yards out.) That’s shot #2. Shot #3 I moved in closer to a concealed position and waited. He poped his head out and caught a pellet behind the eye. Instantly dead and burried back in his hole. That’s shot #3. Occasionally you see a 4th groundhog in another hole. If you get him long range, 50 yards, that’s shot #4. if he sees you move and gets back underground that’s sot 4 wasted. These are wary animals and surprisingly fast for such fat little guys.

                Muskrats are less wary and the number of shots you take depends on many factors. If you catch them unaware you can definitely get a one shot kill. They are rather slow and don’t pay much attention to you. If you find one swimming they have a wonderful defense. They dive. If you take the shot the instant they dive you just missed and have to try again in about 5 minutes when it comes up for air somewhere else. Moving diving muskrats at a distance are a challenge for anyone. Ideally you catch them while they are on land feeding and sitting still but that isn’t always the case.

                Squirrels are always a challenge since they are always running up and down trees jumping branches, chasing each other and rather unpredictable. I don’t bait them I think that’s not very sporting. There’s usually alot of them too. So sometimes everything works right the squirrel holds still long enough to get the shoot and kill it. sometimes they move just when you take the shot and live to laugh at you. So As I said, sometimes you need a few pellets on a good day. There is no ideal day when every shot you take is going to kill each and every time when your targets are moving, diving underwater, diving in holes or just decide to move at the wrong time. It’s not that I’m a rotten shot. I’m trying to predict the unpredictable in a dynamic environment with moving targets that move in all manner of ways and have ways to defend themselves from my evil pellets. Even a .50 cal bullet can only penetrate 4 inches of water so a pellet isn’t going to get that diving muskrat. It might take a few tries in the real world.

                • Wulfraed Says:

                  Whatever you meant, the phrasing you used still implied three /hits/ to produce one /kill/.

                  It did not indicate two clean misses and one killing hit.

                  As for the squiddles — the ones behind my place would be easy shots, but I suspect hunting in a residential district, even with an airgun, would not be legal.

                  So far I’ve seen fox squirrels, one grey squirrel, a chipmunk, and a boar raccoon [hypothesis -- it didn't stand up for ID, so I'm going by the tuft of fur on the belly], and three raccoon kits [mother was raiding the neighbor's bird feeders] appear on the back patio deck. The wild turkeys, geese, ducks, rabbit, and skunk haven’t climbed to the patio but have been in the back yard.

                  They’d all have been easy shots from the basement window.

                  Granted, they’re all gathering for the feed corn and sunflower seeds that get distributed from a fertilizer spreader (or for the neighbor’s bird feeder — I decided to bypass the feeders as the squirrels get 99% of the contents anyway)

                  • john Says:

                    My mistake for not being clear the first time. I’m glad I got it cleared up by walking you through a few typical hunts that have happened. Not all of that activity happened on the same day. I might be after groundhogs one day and muskrat on a different day ect. It all depends on what is showing up that day.

  • john Says:

    It just seems that little bit of information was left out making pcp guns seem like all fun and no work. That may be so until it’s refill time. Then a springer seems like less work. I don’t need to throw all 224 pounds onto my most powerful springer to cock it. I looked at both the benjamin pump which I use and the airforce pump. They look identical so I’m assuming the brand name don’t matter when the pressure gets close to 3000 psi. Any Jeri words of wisdom on this twotalon?

    • twotalon Says:

      Well….

      When it comes to PCP, it depends on what you are doing.
      Testing pellets, tuning up, zeroing scopes …. you burn up a lot of air. You get sick of pumping.

      Once that’s done, unless you like to plink with them, then there is only hunting. Not all that many shots in one day….usually. Not a big problem. Squirrel season takes only one fill. I don’t want very many. Most groundhogs in one day was 8. Lots of air left for the next day.

      Starling popping ? Man I have started with a full tank, had to refill about noon, then had to refill again when I quit in the evening. That was a good season. I almost got tired of shooting them. Almost.

      So it depends on how much air you need to use up. The hard work comes first for me. After that, no big deal.

      twotalon

    • twotalon Says:

      Oh yeah…
      If the pumps look alike except for the paint job, then they are probably the same thing…

      twotalon

  • john Says:

    One of the things I’m doing is controling muskrats on 2 stocked ponds. I have that under control and I just get bored so I put out a few prarie chuck targets at various distances and a few reactive target balls and have fun. I let it get down to 2000 psi then get on the pump again. It does get to be some work but the condor is just plain fun. I especially love that satisfying echoing boom when I send the love. It’s more fun than my M-16 was when I was in the army. I used to love going to the range.

    I was just wondering if the airforce pump was any better than the benjamin pump. They appear to be the same in design.

    • twotalon Says:

      I go 30 shots on the AF rifles.
      For plinking I would rather use a springer now. Has something to do with the kind of springers too.

      I had a Air venturi pump one time. Looked just like the Benji and AF pumps. Was harder to pump than the Axsor or the FX. The last two still work. The Air Venturi died after about 6 months.

      twotalon

  • john Says:

    I figured as much. I wondered if there was some secret internal workings in the airforce pump that made it easier work. Maybe a little green man on a hamster wheel hooked to a special gearworks or something.

    I gotta admit I do love tricking out that condor. It replaced all my other airguns. Truly a multi mission platform.

  • john Says:

    I suppose that’s another thing to mention when talking about springers vs pcp. expense of the pumps to keep them running. Benji pumps are $176.00 if i remember right. If it dies on you you are out that money and have to go buy a new pump. Something a springer doesn’t need to worry about.

    I got a friend that was on me to buy one of my springers. I finally sold him one. now he says he hates the recoil and wants my discovery that I have all modded out to fire at around 1100 in .22. I tried to tell him for the amount of shooting he does to stick with the springers since he’s not a very big guy and had a tough time pumping to 2000 psi when he tried it once. He wants to keep up with me in the hobby I think. He doesn’t seem to take into account I’ve been in shooting sports since I was around 10. I also am a combat vet, and served in 3 different theaters, and was invited to the United States Armt C.A.T. team, and I build custom airguns, so I pretty much live airguns. This is my first airforce gun and first airgun to need 3000psi so I’m still learning a bit about it as I turn it into a formidable shooting tool. (no I’m not power modding it.)

    • twotalon Says:

      I been shooting since I was young enough that my Daisy 25 was hard to cock. Never considered airguns to be useful for anything bigger than pidgeons for a long time. Not much range or accuracy either.
      Times have changed. I went from blowing the guts out of groundhogs (powder)to precision shots (air). Many dead tree rats. Airguns have come a long way. Pellets too. More limited range, but I don’t have to worry about shooting anybody a couple miles away.

      Airguns are great as long as you know what you can and can’t do. There are limitations. You just have to understand them. Everything has it’s place.

      twotalon

  • john Says:

    I was raised on crosman. I remember my 760 being an effort to pump but I loved it. I finally passed my 760 on to another generation to carry the torch. I am evolving with my sport. I build high end pump guns mostly but I’m trying to get away from them and start building pcp guns. I just enjoy them more as I get older.

    If I get a critter that really gets me mad I bring out the mossberg 100 ATR though. It makes muskrats disappear instantly. I wouldn’t use it on squirrels though. the condor is safer since the pellet won’t hit anyone several miles away.

    • twotalon Says:

      My best airgun in days of old was my second 1400. That was a good shooter considering the available ammo. Knocked the snot out of rats and pidgeons.
      I still can get nasty on critters when I want to. Without getting too graphic and accurately describing the effects (those with weak stomachs may be traumatized for life) , I should say that I sometimes like overkill. Used it many times. Would take DNA to identify the species if you could scrape enough up (over a wide area).

      twotalon

  • john Says:

    I try to keep it humane and quick. I simply dispose of pests that I have to. As children or teens might be reading this, best not to get too blood thirsty here. I got reemed a while back for calling a daisy a “toy”.

    • twotalon Says:

      Humane ? Well……there is humane and there is REAL humane…..if you did not intend to eat the thing. I remember trying to clean squirrels that were hit from the wrong angle with a bit too much power. Deer loads are a bit excessive if not used right.

      4 FPE for squirrel ? HA !!!! Not with me.
      I set my limits for “good enough”. Sometimes I want to put some lead back into the environment.
      One time there was this red squirrel. I launched this slug at it that was too heavy for my powder scale to measure. It was heavier than an entire 12 ga. shotgun slug shell. Missed the little bugger, but I think he tore half the bark off the tree getting out of there.

      twotalon

  • john Says:

    There’s a quick humane kill, and then there’s making a bloody slasher film mess. I try not to do the bloody slasher film mess. That’s not what i’m about. If they avoid my traps, and my .22 cal air rifles and .22 marlin, then and only then do I spend $1.25 on a single shot. I find people don’t like to come across a piece of their property where it looks like a critter “Friday the 13th” happened. They tend to not want you to hunt there again. So, I use whatever is necessary to get the job done humanely and cleanly without destroying any trees.

    • kevin Says:

      Taking another life is not without mess. Yes, we have a responsibility to bring enough fpe to the deed, know anatomy and pull the trigger within our comfort zone/range.

      I’d like to believe the responsible hunter/pester doesn’t want a “Friday the 13th” event but it happens even with the best intentions. A true hunter doesn’t want a bloody, slasher film mess. It sometimes happens though. Even with good skills and best intentions. Fact.

      I’ve been a hunter and pester from youth. As I grow older it seems that I less and less desire to take lives. Evolving? Awakening? Appreciation for life? Don’t know.

      Destructive pests don’t get any sympathy though.

      kevin

  • Pete Hallock Says:

    Kevin, I think we all agree here. I only eliminate ground squirrels in the lady’s California native plant landscape, which took almost 20 years to bring to fruition. Killing for killing sake is sad. Drifting back to cocking effort and the “whys” brings up the Weihrauch HW30S and HW50s. Both enjoy a 18 lbs. cocking effort, even though the HW50s is rated at 820fps in .177 cal. Recall reading something about articulated cocking arm or something. And, same type of linkage on the popular Gamo Big Cat 1200. Therefore, why doesn’t other companies emulate the HW series ? Sidebar: I like to spell out a company name for others that may not know what a HW50s is…Like someone mentioned a “Condor”..what the heck is that?
    Pete

  • john Says:

    Exactly. Yes there may be a little blood. That does happen when something is shot. Once in a while, not often, but on occasion there may be a bit of a mess, but not often, especially when using an airgun. They don’t make much of a hole. It’s all more or less internal trauma we create that kills. What I was hearing from twotalon is far from that. It sounds like he’s leaving parts of squirrel spashed around the trees with a TOW missile system and destroying the tree just to be sure he got the squirrel on it. That’s just being an axe murderer not hunting.

    I have a fairly impressive shooting pedigree and I know the rules of hunting like not bringing a 10 guage shotgun to kill a mouse. You have to bring an apropriate amount of force to the task. Overkill is not acceptable. (It’s hard to interview body parts to improve your hunting. It’s hard enough to get a dead critter to fill out the survey sheet.)

  • tangle eye Says:

    I agree with BG Farmer. The cost of a PCP with the associated equipment to charge it is prohibitive for new airgun shooters. You can buy a very, very nice powder gun for a whole lot less than that investment. To reach the masses, there needs to be an airgun equivalent of a Marlin .22 – cheap, easy and accurate. Unfortunately, not much seems to exist like that in the airgun world. The big box store rifles can’t fill the bill IMHO. A big reason for that, again IMHO, is cheap triggers and the user’s lack of education about how to shoot a springer or lack of willingness to learn to do it.

    I have found that a pellet rifle in the back yard with some steel silhouettes is just as much fun as taking a long-distance powder gun to the range – and a lot more convenient. But, it was a long and expensive trip getting to that point.

    • Primo Says:

      You just can’t beat the accuracy of a PCP in the airgun world,no way. But on the other hand you can’t beat the dependability of a springer either. PCPs are expensive, wonderful guns , but expensive . They also are a gamble,the gun can last a long time with no problems,or just start leaking air out of the blue. Springers ,good ones, like the RWS 460 . 22 cal are not cheap,but you get the whole show in one package,plus it’s a very powerful and accurate gun. I have three PCPs: Marauder, the Discovery,and a Sumatra 2500 ,which by the way is a beast,and quite reliable,not so with the Benjamin’s . Anyway I share your opinion in regard to having a bunch of fun plinking at steel targets in the back yard,for that my favorite gun is the RWS Feuerkraft .177 shoots super flat out to 50 yards with crosman premiers 10.5 and it simulates a 1903 Springfield . The best of both worlds without the danger of powder. I also spent a bunch to learn that.

  • dangerdongle Says:

    As a new airgunner myself I’m a bit surprised cocking effort is the number one complaint. I’m certainly no tough guy, and maybe the two springers I own aren’t the norm, but to me they hardly seem to require any effort at all.
    Mastering the artillery hold on the other hand….now there’s something I am seriously struggling with! It’s counter-intuitive to a long time powder burner like myself, and while I understand the ‘why’ I just can’t seem to apply the practice with any sort of decent results!
    I’ll keep practicing with the springers-it’s mostly a chore and not fun at all, but I don’t give up easily.

    As for power…is that the reason Co2 isn’t a recommended choice for a new airgunner? Temperature limitations aside it seems that’s a technology that could use some advancement and may give the new airgunner something closer to what he thinks he wants.

  • Grant Says:

    The thing is, cocking/accuracy/learning issues, and the ‘need pump/tank’ problem, is why I myself went to a Crosman Benjamin 397 multi-pump. It’s wonderful for me, the self-containment is there with the ease-of-use of a gun that has no enormous spring moving around. I won’t try to claim it’s a super magnum, it isn’t, but it does the job and does it well. Plus I can rebuild it with a cheap kit and a screwdriver if I had to, there’s not much in there. Never be afraid to go ‘third option’!

  • NanoBlaster Says:

    Like most I have found that these PCP air rifles are the best in most if not all categories of air rifle. Now, I just registered to this blog because I just made one hell of an impulse buy and ordered a SMG.22 belt fed fully auto/single 100 round pellet rifle for 550 bux!!! Considering the freaky fact I can only find one video on this thing I have a few questions to those that might be able to help on upgrades.
    1. Does anyone have one
    2. Can you get the fps up to 950/970
    3. Do they make some type of silencer or suppressor
    All I have ever used is HPA, so
    4. How do I convert from Co2 to HPA and what is needed
    5. Is there a specific pellet this thing likes
    6. Is there a way to get it upgraded to a .25
    Other than how much fun this thing is to turn a phone book into confetti and chase a crazy rabid squirrel with a tight stream of lead I could use any info on upgrades. It should be here Friday I can’t wait. As it stands “I would like to add” if you love air rifles as I obviously do and you don’t have a Benjamin Marauder, I would suggest you get this PCP rifle. In the .25 cal of course.

    • NanoBlaster Says:

      Sorry to go off target I am A Noob to this blog thing…

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      NanoBlaster,

      You are in luck, because I wrote a feature article for Shotgun News on this gun.

      First of all, the conversion to air is simple. Just buy an HPA tank at a paintball shop. The tank needs bto be regulated down to around 800-1100 psi. I found the gun shot slower with air than CO2 when I tested it.

      There is NO Way to increase the velocity as you request. The gun is rinning at the max right now.

      “They” do not make a silencer. If you want one why don’t YOU try to make it? Temember that if the silencer can be put on a firearm and work, it will be illegal.

      The gun isn’t that accurate. I found it worked best with Gamo Match pellets. Yes, they do come in .22. Pyramyd Air sells them.

      There is no way to change the caliber. This gun is skating on the razor’s edge of operability as it is. It works fine, so just get comfortable with what it is.

      I hope this helps. The Shotgun News articler was last year and was in their July color issue, I believe.

      B.B.

      • Anonymous Says:

        Thank you for replying to my message! I see and understand exactly where you are coming from. However :) I take apart everything and then re assemble it and all the while working on better ways to improve it and for the past 5 years it’s been Nitro RC helicopters and PCP air rifles. I have found that It is completely legal to make a silencer for air rifles in my state, and it said what you said can’t fit a fire arm. “there are none in my house”, all my fire arms are in a small storage facility waiting on the Zombie apoc” :), however when I get this thing I’m sure within a week another SMG will be headed my way for extra parts and peace’s. If I do find a way to get it into the .25 range and at 900 to 950fps you can be rested and assured that I will post my findings here for all to enjoy, and in all likely hood I will find away. I am motivated and love to reverse engineering everything. What a am saying is I know this is a fun air rifle as is, however I know there is massive room for improvement such as upping fps and caliber, and if I can get this thing to handle .25 cal ultra-shocks at 900 fps and destroy a cinderblock, it will be worth the time and money. Here’s a few small ideas I have come up with so far. Machining a longer barrel that can be threaded to handle the same type of baffle system the Benjamin Marauders have. “this step won’t be hard, just a small amount of math on a CAD program and off to my machinist, this is also when my caliber will be increased, “some ask what about the belt, its .22′, well a drill bit will open the hole, and make it to where the pellets are not so tight in the belt but not loose enough to fall out while bouncing around”. Refilling and all, I even have my favorite type of micro riffling. Another step the more important one of the few is increasing airflow and spring tensions. Air flow and spring tension have to be on some small equilibrium or you risk the air rifle beating its self to death. I think last and for from least I am changing the ammo drum. I believe I’m going with the smaller duel side to side round drums. One drum to feed out and the other to feed in, will make it look more up to date and not so Tommy looking, also will keep the belt from hanging and dropping to the ground. I am also going with a nice TruGlo X40 red-dot sight. If you got any Ideas or anyone else please by all means send me a message.

        • Nanoblaster Says:

          Not Anonynous

        • Wulfraed Says:

          It doesn’t matter if you have a firearm in the vicinity or keep them locked up in a separate facility to determine legality of said home-made silencer.

          Under US Federal law IF the device CAN be readily attached to ANY firearm, it falls into the controlled category and is treated just like a fully automatic firearm. So if you make a silencer that hooks around the front-sight base of some airgun — and there is some firearm with a similar enough front sight to hold this silencer, you have now manufactured a controlled item.

          The GAMO Whisper models are designed so that trying to remove the silencer unit and fit it to some other gun essentially destroys the unit. I believe the legality of the Whisper is still ambiguous in Michigan law — the law states that one must be licensed to possess a silencer; but no one issues such; the secretary of state, however, recently ruled that the paperwork involved with the BATF transfer fee constitutes a “license”, and hence thus silencers are legal in the state. So where does an airgun which does not fall under the BATF transfer fee fall with regards to silencers; is it implicitly licensed on the basis that the Feds permit it to be sold without paperwork?

          • Nanoblaster Says:

            It doesn’t matter I’m not making that kind of silencer, I’m using the same design from the Benjamin Marauders, they have a great baffling system that is very stable and aligns perfectly, and the parts are already in the mail. In any case when I’m done it will be great. I’ve done other things like this as well such as adding a Tippmann RT-trigger to a 10/22 Ruger that now slices like a knife; it’s really fun to play with. Here is the deal, I like to make things my way which in turn makes me very narcissistic, and I am fine with it. I do enough research to know where the line is drawn and then I stand on it. What can I say I’m a furyian, defiant until the end. It has worked for me most of my life. However if you know of anyone that can help with other issues like upping the fps without having to make air passages bigger I could use the ideas, any really. When I’m finished Ill post a step by step formula on every detail I went through upping the fps and the caliber along with the drum and silencer. Most likely going to upgrade some O-rings so I can get 3000psi in to it as well. Yes I’m sure there are those e out there with no imagination that will say I can’t do it but I beg to differ I can and more than likely I will. Please I could use any ideas on this and if you have any I would love to hear about them, not too worried if it’s legal or not just would love to hear what you got. Such as fractal baffles and titanium peace’s, light fast with lots of spring lol…

  • Grahaeme Says:

    Please advise, purchased refurbished Beeman P1 .177 and shooting from close range (2-5 meters) it just about penetrates two sides of heinz baked beens and dents pellets tin (no penetration).
    does that in your opinion look a bit underpowered?

    Many thanks,

    Graheme

  • Grahaeme Says:

    I used SMK Spitfire pellet at 5 yards range and expected much further penetration (at least 1.5 – 2 heinz tins or at list burst pellet tin). It’s not scientific, but more power testing I suppose

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Grahaeme,

      I think the thing you want next is a chronograph of some kind. Used is okay, as long as it works.

      B.B.

    • Vince Says:

      From what I’ve been able to dig up quickly about the SMK Spitfire pellet… I’m willing to bet it’s a rebadged “Industry Brand” pellet. If it is, be warned that they are notorious for poor performance and accuracy.

  • Grahaeme Says:

    Sorry, just to clarify it’s Beeman P1 (.177 calibre – not Beeman P17)

  • Grahaeme Says:

    Yes, the pistol was chronoed using SMK Spitfire @ 450fps

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