What is a tune?

by B.B. Pelletier

Announcement: Bill Cardill is this week’s winner of Pyramyd Air’s Big Shot of the Week on their airgun facebook page. He’ll receive a $50 Pyramyd Air gift card. Congratulations!

Bill Cardill submitted this week’s winning photo for BSOTW.

Tune is slang for tuneup, and in airguns a tuneup can range from a quick lubrication all the way to a major overhaul of the powerplant and trigger. Everything in between these two extremes is also fair game. So, lesson one is that a tune can be anything that changes and hopefully improves the airgun’s performance.

I’m going to address a breakbarrel spring gun in today’s report. Other powerplants can also be tuned; but the steps are different, and the results will differ from what you get with a spring gun tune. Since the majority of airgun tunes are performed on springers, it’s appropriate to look at them first. And the breakbarrel is the No. 1 type of spring gun.

Victor asked what was meant by a tune, but I suspect that others would like to know what’s involved, as well, so today we’ll look at airgun tuning in all its complexity. Let’s begin with a brand-new spring gun and see why we would tune it and what might be done.

Smoothing the edges
Most new spring guns have sharp edges on all the mating powerplant parts. Sometimes, these edges interfere with the movement of the parts. These edges are worn down during a long break-in period, which is why a gun gains velocity as it wears in. But you can also remove these edges and burrs with small files, and that is one thing that a tuneup can do.

Key places to look are the cocking slot, the piston slot, the cocking linkage and, if there’s an interface between the linkage and the piston, that’s a prime place to look for burrs and sharp edges. The forward edge of the cocking slot is especially important, because it can slice a new piston seal when it’s installed…and that will ruin the seal. The end cap and sides of the trigger mechanism should also be checked.

The action forks that the pivot bolt passes through is another place to look for burrs and sharp edges, as well as the sides of the baseblock that the barrel is pressed into.

There are also burrs and sharp edges that don’t affect the operation of the powerplant. These do not go away with use and they can be left alone if you like. However, if you plan to take the powerplant apart in the future, these edges and burrs will be waiting to cut you.

Lubrication
Probably the most common thing done during a tune is lubrication. New guns can have either too much grease or not enough. And most of them have the wrong kind of grease. The factories use a general machine grease, but there are much better greases that can be used.

For metal-to-metal contact, nothing is better than grease that contains a high concentration of molybdenum disulfide. Moly isn’t a grease — it’s a solid particle that’s ground very fine and mixed with grease for application. When it comes in contact with metal under some pressure, the particles bond with the metal on the surface, forming a layer of extreme low friction. That layer is durable and allows other metal to slide across the surface it’s on.

We don’t appreciate how low-friction moly is, because the grease it’s in raises the coefficient of friction. But custom tuners are known to burnish certain parts of a gun — like the inside of the compression tube — with dry moly particles. This process takes a long time, as the moly doesn’t want to cooperate; but once it’s, done you have a surface with very low friction. Jim Maccari and I split a pound of moly powder, and my half was in several large bottles. It’s a lifetime supply for a full-time tuner!

Another place where moly powder comes into play is on the mating trigger sear surfaces. I’ll have more to say about this in a moment, but this is a custom tuner’s trick. The action fork and baseblock can also benefit from a burnish of moly.

I don’t burnish anymore, though. Moly grease, such as Air Venturi Moly Paste, will do the same thing over time as it gets worked into the action through the process of shooting.

But not every springer needs moly grease. The older guns with leather piston seals actually do better with a white lithium grease. The grease serves as fuel for the constant dieseling of all spring-piston guns, and leather seals burn more fuel than synthetic seals do. For this same reason, I lube the mainsprings of the lower-powered springers like a Diana 27 with the same white lithium grease.

Does it bother you that I said all spring piston guns diesel? Well, they do. Don’t confuse dieseling, which is normal and even good, with detonation — which is when you here a low bang. That’s too large an explosion for your gun, and you don’t want to do very much of it.

The barrel pivot and the forks through which it passes is another place to grease. The right grease (moly) applied here reduces the cocking effort by 10 pounds!

The mainspring is the other place that gets lubed, and often it’s to stop the vibration, though I’m going to tell you in a moment a better way to do. For this, people use black tar, or what Jim Maccari calls Velocity Tar. It’s just a very viscous grease with a high adhesion that feels tacky to the touch. Farmers and heavy equipment operators know it as open gear lubricant. Most of the different greases like this will slow your gun to some extent, but there are products like Velocity Tar which, if used sparingly, seem to not phase the velocity at all.

Remove all the play
Okay, lubricating a gun to smooth the firing cycle is a redneck approach. Many people, including me, do it that way. But there’s a more elegant way if you’re willing to work. That way is to remove all the play in the various moving parts. The piston and mainspring are the primary parts involved.

The piston in a factory gun fits well inside the spring tube, but there’s a looseness to allow for manufacturing tolerances. The piston seal takes up a lot of the slack, but it’s located just at the front of the piston. The rear is free to move in all directions. While the space is small, this is where some of the vibration comes from.

To tighten the piston, it’s possible to put small bearings at the front and rear of the piston. These are usually small, round spots of synthetic material such as Teflon or nylon. Typically, three are placed at the front and three more at the rear. They are spaced evenly around the piston body, and the front ones are offset from those in the rear. If they fit the spring tube exactly, the piston rides on them, and then a moly coating really does its work.

The next critical fit is the mainspring, and here it’s sometimes possible to buy a spring that fits the spring guide in the rear and the piston rod in the front very tightly. Tuners call this close fit being “nailed on.” When you have a close fit like this, good moly lubrication is essential, or the close fit of steel on steel will cause galling, which is a form of burnishing that causes friction, vibration and excess heat.

If you can’t find a spring that fits this tight, you can always have a custom spring guide made that does fit the spring you have. Then, inside the piston, you can put a steel shim that fits between the mainspring and the inner walls of the piston. It’ll look shoddy; but once the powerplant is together, it’ll stay in place. And moly is essential here for the mainspring and the guide. This is called a “beer can” tune, because people often use cans to make the shim.

Another trick people use is to put shims behind the mainspring on the spring guide end. This puts the mainspring under more tension and gives more power. You have to make sure there’s enough room to cock the rifle when doing this, because it’s possible to shim the spring too much.

New airgunners assume that the stronger the mainspring, the more powerful the airgun. That isn’t always the case. Piston stroke has more to do with power than the spring rating. I always look for a weaker spring because I know it won’t subtract that much power from the gun. A coating of tar will do more to slow down a gun than a weak spring, as long as the spring fits well.

A final word on the mainspring is to notice that each end is usually a different size. Try to match the end with the spring guide or piston rod that fits best.

Piston seals
Piston seals used to be a real big reason for tuning a spring gun, because they wore out or melted from friction. Today’s seals are pretty well made, though there will always be some cheapies that come to market from time to time. The thing about the piston seal is to ensure that it fits the bore of the compression tube without adding too much additional friction. Some is unavoidable, but it’s easy to go overboard. The modern parachute piston seal that expands as it compresses air is very sophisticated, and shouldn’t be too difficult to size correctly. To reduce the diameter, put the seal on the piston and rotate the piston against sandpaper. Be careful to keep the sides of the seal parallel to the compression chamber bore while doing this. It usually only takes a minute or two for this job.

Trigger
The trigger can be adjusted and lubricated during a tuneup. I lubricate with moly grease, because a trigger is not a part that works by friction. No matter how low you get the friction, the trigger should always be safe…but this is a place where home tuners often have problems. They either stone or file the mating sear surfaces and put a dangerous angle on them. Then, they lubricate them with moly. These are the triggers that slip when cocked.

People are also known to adjust a trigger to have too fine mating surfaces, and once more, they’ll slip when cocked. My advice is to lube first, then let the trigger work for several hundred shots before you adjust it. I would keep stones and files away from triggers unless you’re certain that you know what you’re doing.

Breech seals
This part is often overlooked and can sometimes give you a large boost in power. The breech seal doesn’t have to stand proud of the breech to work well. It all depends on how the gun is designed. But don’t overlook the possibility of improving performance by raising the breech seal a few hundredths of an inch.

I hope this report answers most of the questions you have regarding tuning an airgun. As I said at the start, a tune can be any of these things, or all of them. A professional tune is usually all, but you should discuss the specifics with your airgunsmith before letting him start the work.

104 thoughts on “What is a tune?

  1. BB,
    Great write up. I’ve seen significant improvements in lower end springers. I would also suggest the following, trigger replacement to reduce pull weight and improve overall action, grind off rough edges on each end of the spring and polish, and replace those plastic break washers with brass.


  2. Everyone,

    B.B. is out of town and sent me an additional section to add to today’s blog. If you read the blog before 8:50 am Friday, that part was not in the blog.

    Edith


  3. “What is a tune?”

    For me a professionally tuned springer is the number # 1 reason I got hooked on airguns. The solid THUNK at the end of the firing cycle on a well tuned springer, without buzziness and vibration still brings a smile to my face.

    I’ve never tuned my own guns so cannot offer any advice for those that are more gifted at tinkering than me.

    “When should you or a professional tune your airgun?” is a segment that I wish B.B. would have addressed. I’d like to know his thoughts. In my opinion, you should shoot your new/new to you airgun at least 500 times (tin of pellets) to determine if you have a gun that is accurate enough to warrant the time and expense to tune the gun. Tuning doesn’t turn an inaccurate gun into an accurate gun.

    kevin


    • Kind of depends if the “tune” will take care of a sloppy breech, improper fitting breech seal, or a shot piston seal. Might also include some bore polishing and a recrown. The “tuner” may also try some different pellets than the owner was determined to use.
      So a “tune” COULD improve accuracy. Depends on what was done, or needed to be done.

      twotalon


      • twotalon,

        To your list I would also add that a good tuner can add a choke to your barrel that COULD improve accuracy.

        The point I was trying to make is that I, me, would not send an airgun to a tuner with the goal being to improve accuracy. To improve shot cycle, yes. If what a home tinkerer or professional tuner does to your airgun improves accuracy then you got a bonus.

        kevin


        • The question may come down to this…..Is it going to be worth the expense? I have some pigs that are hopeless without replacing almost everything, and would also have to be reworked on top of that. Not worth the money no matter what in such cases. Much better to buy something reasonably good in the first place so that very little if anything needs to be done.

          twotalon



    • Kevin,

      My experience tells me this — that experienced airgunners know when certain guns do need professional work, but new airgunners don’t have the experience and think that a professional tune will solve all their shooting problems. Many of their problems are self-inflicted, like not using the artillery hold or adjusting their scope too high or too far to the right, and they think that a professional tune can correct it, which of course it can’t.

      B.B.


  4. Kevin,
    I totally agree about the THUNK smile!!! I also like how a “tuned” springer provides better defined internal sounds such as the piston being engaged or the solid click when the barrel is closed. I got hooked on the “tuning” aspects of a $120 rifle that performed pretty well out of the box. Now if I miss, it is really my fault. :-) Some day I’ll jump into the dark side and order a PCP, but a “tune” has delayed that purchase. I really like the simplicity of a break barrel springer.


    • But why spend the cost of the rifle and maybe more to professionally tune the $120 rifle? If the rifle is a HW55 or 35, or R-9 that you lucked onto for $120 bucks I can see it. But a $120 quest for example. Those are fodder for the tinkerer and aftermarket trigger guys. They often are very good values for the money and very good for 20-25 yard pesting and target shooting, but a real good one is rare.


      • Robert,
        Tuning has become part of the enjoyment with this hobby. It didn’t start out this way, but it looks like I’m not alone who have been bitten by this bug. :-)


  5. TT makes a good point ,there are so many varibles to tuning a springer that it would be nearly impossible to say whether you should have a professional do it. I think it boils down to whether you are capable to do it yourself or not, or want to. Most should shoot the gun more than just a couple times as suggested,and the stupidest thing I see some folks do, is to drop ship the gun to a tuner BEFORE they have even shot it. How do they know what the gun is like before it is messed with? Do they have that much fear that the gun is going to have issues to start with? Then why do they buy springers ,especially break barrel springers?


  6. OK, Then. Are there any brands and models that the manufacturer takes the effort to offer an out-of-box air gun that tends to be of a quality that you may already have a winner and not , generally, need a tune. Say, a TX200 ?
    Thanks,
    Pete


    • Pete,

      I think there are a lot of brands and models that can be “shot out of the box” and not need a tune. Certainly the TX 200 is one of those guns. B.B. calls the MK III the rolls royce of springers for this reason and others. Keep in mind that he sent his first TX 200 to Ken Reeves to be tuned and most field target shooters have tuned their TX 200′s.

      It boils down to your preferences and expectations from your airguns. Many airgunners have never tuned or had their guns tuned.

      Most automobiles run fine without a balanced and blueprinted engine but all would benefit from it. Most car owners don’t care for the added cost and don’t care about the enhanced performance.

      kevin


      • Kevin,

        I did send my first TX to Ken Reeves for a tune. And before that I had it tuned by Jim Maccari. But I did so to report on those tunes — not because the rifle needed a tune. Only the Reeves tune made any discernible difference and the new Mark III TX200 is just as smooth right out of the box.

        B.B.


        • B.B.,

          You are slowly convincing me that when you think airgun or see an airgun your primary interest is, “can I justify a blog on this one?”

          You’ve shot almost every airgun that’s been manufactured, most custom big bores, prototypes (Steve Vissage anyone?), handled extremely rare airguns (NFM airgun/James Cook, Girandoni, etc.) so I can’t hlep but ask…Do you have a desire to acquire any new models of airguns just to satisfy your personal needs/desires or do you now look at all airguns from a blog topic perspective?

          A regulated FX 500 Elite, Ben Taylor custom with reg and Dave G one of a kind are on my list.

          kevin


          • Kevin,

            If I had the money, or the inclination to spend it this way, I would like a vintage ball flask rifle. Just to admire, not to shoot.

            But I satisfy my need for older guns with firearms that I can shoot, like the Nelson Lewis gun and the Ballard. I know if they are in good condition they can be shot safely for centuries, and that allows me to sample the same things that the great gun writers of long ago took for granted. I can see the world through their eyes by shooting such guns.

            Of the airguns I own I love my R8, Whiscombe, Bronco, Blue Streak, BSF rifles and pistol and a couple others.

            B.B.


            • B.B.,

              Interesting. Thanks.

              It sure is fun observing some of your recent vintage acquisitions and your process of getting them to shoot accurately. Your winchester high wall has found the ideal home.

              kevin


    • Not sure about brands. But here are a few examples that impressed me.
      Bronco – not bad
      Stoeger X5 – not bad
      Stoeger X10/20 – not bad
      RWS 34 – not bad
      RWS 54 – really really nice
      TX200 – really really nice


      • Thanks Kevin and TC..Just picked up a like new Diana 240 Classic ( also sold with other names..) and it is impressive. Thanks for the list and new attitude for me to adjust to..stop worrying, just shoot and relax.
        Pete



          • The Diana Model 40, which I believe is essentially the same as Mod 34 with a muzzle brake, has a good kick, but it has not twang whatsoever and feels really tight. It actually feels like professionally tuned guns I have borrowed in the past but with strong recoil.

            Very difficult to master because of recoil though and I find it easier to shoot accurately offhand than from the bench

            T.E.



    • Pete,

      You answered your own question. I have never seen a new TX200 that needed a tune. On the other hand, there are guns that nearly always need one.

      Guns like the Bronco shoot good enough to never need tuning, but they don’t feel as dead-smooth as the TX200. So some things we live with, because of what the gun does and what it costs.

      B.B.


  7. B.B.,

    Thank you for the report! As I am getting ready to replace the spring in my TX200, some questions arise regarding what you wrote:

    - If the spring fits tight against the spring guide and I am lubricating with Moly, might tar still be necessary as well?
    - What is burnishing?
    - It is enough with coating the sides of the piston seal without the need for lubricating the inside of the compression tube, correct?
    - Can Moly grease be used on firearm triggers? (assuming they are safe to start with)

    Thank you very much for all these take-it-apart-and-fix reports. I would have given up on airguns a while back if it wasn’t for them.

    Cheers

    T.E.


    • On the use of moly on the firearms ,I sometimes use it, and have had good results but it depends on the gun and where you use it. Hinge pins on double shotguns for one, and I have just used it in a antique slide action Marlin rifle recently with excellent results. If you follow this blog and want to see what is reasonable to do to cheaper guns as far as tuning goes and how to do it. Pay particular attention to Vince’s guest blogs. I have bought only two tuned guns that I have not tuned myself. One of them was from the old Beeman shop and one was a gun that Vince worked on . Vince knows his stuff, that gun is superb.


    • TE,

      I will answer in order of what was asked.

      – Don’t use tar on the inside of a spring. It’s for the outside, only. No tar when the spring fits tight on the guide. Only moly.

      – Burnishing means rubbing until the compound (or element, in this case) bonds with the metal. In other crafts, burnishing means different things. When you burnish leather you rub it until it shines and becomes waterproof from the fat rubbed into the leather.

      – I used to coat the inside of the compression tube with moly grease, but now I just coat the piston seal. If you see that the seal is being rubbed clean of moly during insertion of the piston, you may want to burnish some moly greas into the compression chamber walls as well.

      – Moly grease is safe to use on all triggers that are safe. That includes firearms. But here is a caution. Some guns like ARs are very dirty when operated and moly grease will attract and hold the dirt. This is where dry powder burnishing is best.

      B.B.


  8. On the brands out of the box ,I agree with the Bronco in the break barrels and the HW products for accuracy and lasting value ( thoughour Bronco makes me wonder why anyone would spend more money for a R-7?) ,but when you get into the magnum area the field narrows considerably. I went with the side-lever Diana 54-52-48 for the best in accuracy , cost, aftermarket support, and parts availability, and without the issues that plague break-barrels. For me they were the only springers that bested the power of the .22 and .20 cal MSP that I favored for years for small game hunting. My Daina 24 , 34, and R-10 were ok , but not more accurate , just more conveient to load. The R-7 powered guns are just barely adequate in the power department, and a hell of a lot more expensive. I have considered the TX200, but it is not in the same league as the Diana 54 in the power department, and there is no cheaper finished counterpart for it like the 48 is to the 54. All the chicom crosman products and a gamo, and a RWS 320 needed considerable help , and only two or three of them out of about three dozen could make the cut. None of them are worth more than 20 bucks more used than the initial cost of their aftermarket triggers . None are worth paying for a professional tuners time.


  9. I purchased recently a new Crosman Nitro Venom air riffle in .177
    I did some research on the NET about lubrication and maintenance and I am puzzled.

    Manual says a drop of RMCOIL every 200 shots.
    Calling Crosman tech support – they said to never lubricate the chamber.
    I have read on the NET – 1 or 2 drops chamber oil every 1000, 2000 or 3000 shots, never oil or oil when you hear noises when co cking.

    I love to practice target shooting and on average I am using 500 pellets a month.

    What are your recommendations for this particular air riffle?

    Best regards!

    Cantec


    • On the Quest type guns for a basic lube job. Assuming that it has a steel spring, do not put anything that comes in a dropper bottle and looks like an oil into your compression chamber. Take the gun apart, clean and de-burr it, install a new piston seal if it needs it and coat just the sides of it with moly. The compression chamber will get some moly burnished in when you shoot it. Apply tar to the spring if you aren’t going to make new parts. Moly the spring guide. Use a mixture of moly and 30 wt non -detergent motor oil on the exterior pivot points. Buy an after market trigger, I suggest the one with the ball-bearing screw tips on the adjusting screws,not the original one ,it is crude by comparison. I know I have used both. If you don’t have the tools don’t hone the compression tube . It probably isn’t totally round anyway, and you can enlarge it by using a hone.


    • Cantec,

      Welcome to the blog! (Hadn’t seen your name before, or if I did and forgot, or missed it, please forgive me…)

      Chamber oil is a silicon based oil. Not the same 10-30 weight mineral or synthetic oil that you use on the other moving parts of your gun. Personally, I don’t oil my chamber until I get some roughness or noise when cocking. Then I dibble a few drops down the barrel and let it sit for a few hours or overnight per BB’s recommendations. A little goes a long way…. The rest of the gun should be lubed according to its environment. Humid? More often. Dry? Less often is required to ward off rust. With the exception of the chamber, over oiling won’t hurt anything. It’ll just be messy. Too much oil in the chamber (even with “chamber” oil) will result in detonation, which will break your gun.

      /Dave


      • Thank you Dave,
        Indeed I am new here.
        What you said also makes sense to me (oil the chamber when needed).
        This way you avoid the possibility to over oil, which is worst.
        I love to take good care of my guns (and everything else).
        I was just trying to find out why there is so much controversy about something that
        shouldn’t be that complicate.
        I forgot to add in my previous post that the owners of two gun stores said to me – they are
        using corn oil for their air riffles.
        In this case if you use corn grain instead of pellets you might shoot popcorns.
        Mmmmm! Just grab a beer


        • Cantec,

          Corn oil! I wish I had remembered that!

          I will address the use of corn oil in the next installment. It has an interesting history, and I have a bottle of it (Wesson) in my gun cabinet.

          Thanks, and welcome to the blog,

          B.B.


          • Thank you B.B.
            It is always better to have the opinion of someone who has huge and first hand
            experience.
            Since you said nothing about chamber maintenance on my Crosman Nitro Venom 177,
            I presume you agree with Dave and TC (a drop of oil if you hear a “honk” when
            cocking.)
            I already ordered Crosman RMCOIL but you intrigued me about the corn oil history.
            Where do I look for it!

            Best regards,

            Cantec


            • Cantec,

              Yes, you have it right and I doubt that you’ll ever hear a honk from a Nitro Piston. So no oil. But just one drop if it’s needed.

              The corn oil history will be a separate report this coming week. It’s time to address it, and I have as much experience as anyone, so I’m glad to do it.

              B.B.



                • Wulfraed,

                  I have tested Snake Oil extensively and found that it doesn’t live up to the manufacturer’s claims. I didn’t intend testing it unless someone asks.

                  B.B.




                  • Based on a web search, Slick 50 IS Snake Oil

                    http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/18/141/article/Snake_Oil__Is_That_Additive_Really_A_Negative.html

                    Might be cheaper to buy a vial of Tri-Flow “Superior Lubricant” which trades the 50wt motor oil for something lighter weight. Both probably detonate if they get into the chamber.

                    Or try Liquid Wrench “Dry Lubricant with Cerflon” (Cerflon appears to be a Boron Nitride ceramic which bonds to PTFE [Teflon] AND which is a lubricant in its own right — so we have a fine suspension of low-friction ceramic bound to low-friction Teflon, in a spray form in which the carrier liquid evaporates; ideally that means no detonation from seepage past the piston seal… Unlike the liquid petroleum suspensions of Teflon plastic)



                    • Wulfraed,
                      It was a joke — there was a “dealer” (I think, maybe just a “tuner”) who used to push the Slick50 tunes, esp. for leather piston seals, mostly on cheap ones like B3′s. He would soak the seals in Slick50 and then shoot pellets through 2×4′s and the like. He claimed it was the teflon in the Slick50 that eliminated friction and generated all the extra power! Lots of energy in oil itself, also, when combusting. If you want real snake oil, look into PellgunOil and all the extraordinary “facts” about it:).


                  • {Since we’ve reached the level of nesting shown by the comments software I’ve backed up two levels to reply}

                    I’ve not bothered to look up any praises of PellGunOil. I’ll accept claims that, for CO2 guns, it probably works great at preserving the contact seal with the cartridge, and no doubt works to improve the life of the valves in said guns.

                    Visually, it appears to be something related to automatic transmission and/or power steering fluid. That is: something with enough lubrication for gear to gear contact, resisting high temperatures (torque converters), and an ability to resist high pressures (hydraulic pumps — steering and transmission)… All conditions suited to CO2 (some lubrication of valves, moderate pressure [~850PSI CO2?], not so much temperature, since CO2 release results in a cooling effect).


              • Thank you B.B.
                I also wander what kind of grease/oil do you use for plastic on metal.
                For example between the fork and barrel of my Crosman Nitro Venom there are plastic washers. I cleaned them (don’t ask me why), but I was wandering what kind of lubrication is safe to use.

                Best regards!

                Cantec


                • Cantec,

                  Plastic is a tough one. If they used the right kind, it needs no lubrication because the plastic itself is considered lubrication. It should never need any lubrication. Also plastic is a synthetic that deteriorates when in contact with certain compounds like grease and oil.

                  That’s if they did it right. If they didn’t, the plastic washers will destroy themselves and you should use metal washers of the same thickness to replace them. Those can be lubricated with moly grease, like Air Venturi Metal to Metal moly grease.

                  B.B.


                  • Thank you B.B.

                    The metal washes are a good idea if the plastic deteriorates.
                    I already put some PelgunOil on those washers.
                    Should I remove it?
                    Or wait and see what happens.

                    Best regards!

                    Cantec


    • Cantec,
      If the piston seal isn’t make a noise when cocking, then keep the chamber oil on the shelf. I stopped using chamber and spring oils as part of maintance. I would suggest a drop of chamber oil only if I heard a “honk” type of noise when cocking which indicates a dry seal. Chamber oil burns under compression/heat. You don’t want to create detonation that can harm internals such as your “nitro” gas piston. What pellets does your Crosman like?


      • Thank you TC!
        This is the most logical thing to do to me for chamber maintenance. I’ll go with that.
        Now for the ammo:
        So far I have used the bulk 1250 hunting pointed pellets (the cheapest Crosman 7.4 grain)
        and the 7.9 grain hollow point from Crosman premier. For accuracy they are the
        same to me. From 20 yards I hit 1 inch target more than 80% of the times. I even made
        1½ groups from 40 yards with the 7.4 grain. The 70 yard 20 shot group with 7.4 grain
        crosman pointed opened to 6 inch.
        I tried RWS 8.2 grain pointed, but the riffle did not like them. At 40 yards the group was
        larger than a letter size paper target.
        I ordered from the nearest gun store 7.9 grain field target premier and the 10.5 grain field
        target premier to see if they can make any difference. But otherwise I am happy even
        with the results from the cheapest Crosman ammo. The manual says to use only Crosman
        ammo.
        However the RWS 8.2 grain pointed pellet gave me better accuracy in my Crosman 1377
        than 7.4 grain Crosman bulk ammo. I made 1 inch groups from 20 yard with the iron
        sights of the pistol. Isn’t this amazing?


    • I think the _silicone_ chamber lube is OK, but only use it (one drop at a time) when the “honking” gets distinct, and not in the first 1000 or so shots at all, maybe never if you have tuned per Robert’s instruction, as there will be little need. I don’t think it detonates by itself, but it can cause combustibles to migrate to the front of the piston and detonate.


      • BG_Farmer,
        Not sure what is in RWS Chamber Oil, but it produces that loud detonation for a few shots, even after using a single drop.


        • Not arguing that, but I’m not sure it is combustible in itself; that is assuming it is silicone and not just another diesel fleet oil like PellgunOil. My theory is that it temporarily defeats the wiping function of the piston seal (on the cocking stroke) and allows combustibles flung from the spring, for example, to remain on the cylinder walls longer than usual. Either way, use sparingly or not at all.


      • Thank you BG_farmer.
        Another opinion about lubricating the chamber only when needed. So many guys doing the same thing cannot be wrong. I cannot trust salesman and industries lately because they care more about profit than anything else.
        What would I do without Internet!


  10. So what’s wrong with too much lubrication–as long as it’s not leaking out of the gun and making a mess? You can’t have a gun shoot too smoothly right? I wonder if there’s anything to the notion that Ballistol migrates, so you can spray it on the gun and it will travel to the right places. On the other hand, maybe that is related to the fact that Ballistol is supposed evaporate faster. At least that is implied in the literature on white lithium grease which is supposed to be more durable.

    Our sling shot person today seems to have an awkward stance, but I wouldn’t have the heart to correct her…

    Desertdweller, the rotation of the earth that must be compensated for is described with the Coriolis Force I believe. David Tubb claims that the lateral deviation is about one inch at 600 yards. So, you have nothing to worry about at 100 yards. :-)

    It looks like I’m wrong again. Now that I’ve learned how to execute a proper back-cut with by Bowie knife, I see that the knife I was complaining about is actually balanced perfectly. Swish, swish. There is something to be said about not sending your product back right away when you are unsatisfied. Maybe it’s you. Very interesting how the techniques of the Bowie descend from very old medieval swordfighting techniques that go back even further than that. When I take the knife in hand, I feel very historical, almost as if I feel the power of the ancient masters of the sword. It also makes for interesting reading to see the history of Bowie knives in 19th century America as gleaned from contemporary news. It would seem that the Bowie was feared even more than handguns. The usual pattern was for people to pull their pistols, fire, miss, and then throw them at the adversary. Then, they would pull out their knives. An all-around dangerous environment. You would want to know how to look out for yourself.

    Matt61


  11. I have old daisy powerline 1000 made in brazil needs complete tune can anyone recomend someone that will work on this outcast rifle?


    • Chris,

      I doubt anyone will recommend a tuner for your rifle. The good tuners are busy working on the better grade of spring guns and many will advise you to not spend the money on your rifle. So you have a case in which the owner needs to get involved in tuning, if that’s what you want.

      B.B.


  12. Any one try this lube on a pellet gun? Best lube I’ve ever found for auto brake sliders. High heat and repetitive friction areas don’t seem to effect it.

    Permatex® Ultra Disc Brake Caliper Lube Hi-Temp Silicone Formula

    A silicone-based synthetic lubricating compound with outstanding temperature resistance. Fortified with moly for superior performance in high pressure conditions, this product provides continuous lubrication and has no dropping point. Temperature range -65°F to 550°F (-54°C to 288°C) intermittent. Maintains a grease-like consistency and will not liquefy, even at extreme temperatures.


    • TC,

      Sounds like it would be worth a try when reassembling the piston into the cylinder. Much better than using moly grease, which goes on dieseling for a long time after the reassembly is complete… The regular moly grease can be used everywhere else. I’ve used Permatex Ultra on my brake pads and calipers and it works well there, but never thought about using it for springers. Gonna try that next!

      /Dave


  13. B.B.,

    Thanks so much for this report! So a tune primarily addresses things like lubrication (proper versus improper), finish (de-burring, making smooth, even polishing), and fit (removing play, or slack where possible). I don’t have much experience taking airguns apart, so I’ll still need to do some homework to fully understand the basic parts, like; cocking slot, the piston slot, the cocking linkage, etc.

    I’m glad that you mentioned some of the details like what needs smoothing, and what kinds of lubrication to use. I don’t mind hearing what others use for lubricating, or greasing.

    Based on all of this, I somewhat understand why Kevin says that a tune won’t make an inaccurate gun accurate. My impression is that inherent accuracy comes from the barrel itself. However, if all of the mechanical elements aren’t operating as smoothly, and thus as consistent, as possible, then a badly un-tuned gun won’t deliver consistent power starting at the pellet insert end of the barrel (what is this called again?). So with that, it seems that a tune can affect accuracy. It just won’t overcome the guns potential.

    Thanks again,
    Victor


    • Victor,
      From my novice experiences with tuning, anything that smooths out the firing cycle of a springer helps with accuracy. Cleaning up the internals and adding proper lubrication as BB explains helps reduce the fps pellet extremes. I think of these steps as part of a basic tune, which includes checking the piston seal for any defects. I’ve experimented with the next level of tuning using customized parts, but I feel this topic is beyond what BB was after. Getting the trigger to operate smoothly and consistently helps. I dumped the stock trigger and went with a highly recommended replacement. That helped my groupings. One area that gets over looked, are those break barrel washers allowing too much slop. Since the scope and the barrel are separated by a pivot point, barrel lockup must be consistent. Dumping those plastic washers with brass resolved that issue. It now breaks and locks like a precision instrument. My first break barrel was a Crosman 1000X. Accuracy was decent with open sites, poor using supplied scope. I returned it. I was pretty disappointed, and almost ready to give up with this hobby. However, I’m confident today that I could of resolved all those 1000X issues plus more with a basic tune and replacing some parts like the break barrel washers and installing a decent scope.

      What I find truly amazing with this sport is how others are so willing to share their knowledge and experiences. No such thing as a dumb question, just plenty of good people of all ages willing to help. Doesn’t matter if you own a $99 break barrel or a $1000+ PCP. Baseball, apple pie, hot dogs and airguns. :-)


  14. Spent three hours at the range today with my repaired 880, my 856, and Crosman XT.

    The 880 held together well, the repairs have worked. I couldn’t get it to shoot to POA, even after shimming the scope. It did group well. The scope had been pretty well hammered while breaking in the RS2 (which is why the RS2 uses a TASCO). Finally, I took the scope off, but still couldn’t hit anything as the fat fiber optic sight obscured the target at 25 yards. I’ll try it again later with a different scope.

    Moved on to the 856. This is an old, gentle shooter. Shot one target with it and switched to the XT.
    I shot three more targets with the XT, then demolished some ping-pong balls.

    All the shooting today was done with Crosman Destroyer EX pellets, 7.9gr. I hadn’t shot these in a long time. I don’t consider these super-accurate, but they are great for transferring power to a target. These things literally unwrap themselves inside a target rather than pass through: I’ve used them for shooting buffalo gourds.

    I’ve been using a target box for the past several months that has stood up very well. I use a large box that clumping cat litter comes in. This has a handle on top so you can carry it like a little suitcase.
    Using duct tape, tape a layer of heavy corrugated cardboard to it front and back.

    Then open up the top and fill it with layers of boards cut short enough to be stacked in crosswise.
    I used a mixture of old tongue-and-groove flooring and pinewood 2×4′s. You want to arrange them so the pellets strike the ends, into the end of the grain.

    Finally, insert a sheet of styrofoam between the ends of the boards and the side your targets will be mounted on. This is to catch fragments and bounce-backs. Eventually, the ends of the boards will get broken up enough that they will absorb the pellets without bouncing.

    Tape the box top on good and tight, and cover the face of the box with a layer of duct tape. Then stick on your targets (I use Shoot-N-C self-adhesive ones).

    This box so far has absorbed several thousand pellets. 99% of them will be trapped inside the box. The other 1% will find their way between the boards and go out the other side.

    After shooting, apply a strip of duct tape across the most shot-up part of the target horizontally, then cover the face of the box with a layer of duct tape vertically. I also check for any holes in the reverse side and tape over these.

    Eventually you will have so much lead in the box it becomes pretty heavy. You may have to put some white glue on the carry strap to keep it in place.

    While this box works well for pellets, I don’t trust it for bb’s. They might bounce back off the board ends. So I made another box for bb targets.

    For this I used a smaller cat litter box. It is made the same as the big one.

    I stuffed this one with a combination of tightly rolled newspapers, laid in longways instead of crossways like the boards were. All open space in the box was filled with thick styrofoam chunks.
    The target face of the box was covered with a heavy layer of corrugated cardboard, then the box was wrapped with vertical wrappings of duct tape.

    Smaller Shoot-N-C targets are placed on this box. In a couple months of shooting, this box has not been completely penetrated.

    I only use this box for bb guns, including CO2 pistols, and Crosman 760′s with a minimal number of pumps.

    It is important to rotate the position of the targets, to keep the location of areas of concentrated hits changing.

    Les


    • Les,

      I’ve been traveling, so I haven’t commented on your 880 saga, but I have followed it. You are now experienced in fixing this rifle. Such persistence doesn’t come cheap — it took your dedication to see the job through to the end.

      But now you have an appreciation of how an 880 problem can be solved. New airgunners can benefit by what you have learned and shared with us. Thank you!

      B.B.


      • Thanks, BB.

        I’m going to be away from the Internet for the better part of next week myself.

        The 880 repairs were made possible by the co-operation of the Service Department at Daisy. They gave me a link to an exploded drawing of the rifle with the part numbers and names called out.

        The parts that I bought for prior repairs (this last one was done with parts on hand) were extremely inexpensive and the delivery times were very fast. I have bought replacement parts from them on several occasions.

        The guns themselves are pretty simple to work on. Being pneumatics, there are no mainsprings or other parts under tension to deal with. The main challenge is learning how things fit together, and keeping track of all the parts you remove so you can re-assemble them. The first time I had one apart, I found I had a spring left over! So I had to take it apart again, after figuring out where it went.

        I now have two 880′s (both US and Chinese versions) and a late-model 856. If any blog readers run into problems with theirs, I will try to help them get into operation again.


    • Desertdweller,
      Sounds like a good idea, I have several 40 pound size that I use to recycle magazines.
      The magazines just stack in there neatly and I am sure they would stop pellets and BBs.
      If the center got shot out they could be re stacked and the BBs or pellets shook out, it
      shouldn’t make any difference to the recycler if they are a little shot up.
      I think it would be best to shoot into the open side and not the spines, I used to do that with old catalogs when I was young, then I would shake them out over a box to reuse the BBs.


      • That sounds like a good variation for bb’s or low-power pellets.

        If you shoot enough times in the same spot, eventually you can shoot through just about anything you can penetrate into. This is why the target location should be moved around.

        A nice thing about these target boxes is they are made of free materials. You only have to buy the duct tape and the targets themselves.

        If the materials in the bb boxes get shot through, just replace them with other material. I would think magazines printed on heavy, glossy paper would work well. So would old phone books or catalogs. Old school textbooks with heavy covers would also work.

        These things are not bb or pellet traps. If you use them indoors, be sure to rig some sort of backstop behind them for the 1% that get through.

        The target boxes are specifically designed for use with either pellets or bb’s. This is because the two types of ammunition react differently when striking the box. BB’s retain their power by bounding back toward the shooter. So bb’s should not be shot at the pellet target box. It would be easy for a bb to bounce back off the wooden core and come back at the shooter.

        On the other hand, pellets have the mass and momentum to defeat the bb box easily. Rolled up papers would not stop pellets fired by any but the weakest pellet guns. BB’s don’t seem to lose much energy when they rebound off a hard surface. Pellet lose their energy by deforming or breaking up when they strike a hard surface. This, to me, means that pellets are inherently safer than bb’s.

        When I lived in New Mexico, I liked to shoot targets hung on a large pile of steel-reinforced concrete railroad ties. The ties were eight feet long, stacked in a double row pile twenty feet high. I was shooting at the ends of the ties. I think a .50 cal. machine gun would have had a hard time penetrating this backstop of 16 feet of reinforced concrete.

        I liked to examine the pellets that had struck the ends of those ties. They would collapse themselves into little circular discs of lead. I do not recall ever having one bounce back at me.

        On the other hand, I used to like using golf balls as targets. Several times, pellets would bounce back off the golf balls at 25 yards, sometimes striking me or narrowly missing me. If I used a strong springer, the pellet would either imbed itself in the ball or tear the ball up.

        Someone on this blog suggested I use ping-pong balls instead. Excellent idea! They will take a number of hits before they fall apart, and, unlike golf balls, they never shoot back!.

        Les


  15. Cantec,

    At this point I would leave things alone. If Pellgunoil is going to do damage, it has already started. If not then no harm done. Either way, your course is set.

    Watch the gun for signs of increased cocking effort and if you see them, then look at the washers.

    B.B.


    • Thank you B.B.

      I will let you know of the results.
      I had the feeling that Pelgunoil should not harm since it is safe on guns that have rubber and plastics.
      To me Pelgunoil looks like ATF and i have seen plastic gears inside car transmission boxes.
      So, the most hi-tech course of action is – to cross my fingers:-)))

      Best Regards!

      Cantec



        • B.B.

          I was curious about the washers and opened the riffle one more time.
          There was no signs of deterioration (they looked to me unchanged).
          I cleaned the PelgunOil (just to stop thinking about it) and decided to rely on the plastic washers as lubricant. Just used some dry graphite powder on them (already had it).
          Immediately after that the barrel was moving like there is no friction.
          Cocking the gun was lot easier. Accuracy did not suffer.
          I have the feeling that this should do the trick.
          Even in the worst case scenario, I can replace the washers with metal ones as you suggested.
          I should not open the riffle on the first place.
          As they say – if it is not broken, do not fix it.

          Thank you B.B and everyone else for the input.


      • Cantec, don’t let the color fool you. Just because it’s red does not mean it is ATF.

        There have been plastics inside engines (not just transmissions) since the 1960′s… so plastic parts in contact with petroleum products is not necessarily an issue.


        • There is, however, a difference between plastics of the nylon/teflon (bearing and thrust washers) family and the polystyrene (plastic model kits, probably plastic stocks) types. Celluloid (the infamous exploding billiards balls, decayed movie film just waiting to ignite) vs acrylates (plexiglass and kin).

          Automotive fuel lines aren’t just plain rubber — they’d decay too rapidly (and formulations had to be changed to handle ethanol fuels)


        • Vince,

          You are right, but how to know what is compatible with what.
          I did an experiment.
          Look at my answer to B.B

          Regards!

          Cantec


      • PellgunOil is 30W Monolec GFS from Lubrication Engineers. According to the MSDS (fr. Crosman):
        http://www.crosman.com/pdf/msds/MSDS-PELLGUNOIL.pdf
        Now, it may have changed over the years, but it currently should be what the MSDS says. Monolec GFS is a diesel engine oil of “exceptional detergency”. The metallic detergents in engine oil are not like the laundry detergent you wash your delicates with, and I can’t see them doing anything to damage seals unless you put them in the wrong place in a springer and blow a seal via detonation. After looking at the spec. sheet for Monolec, I feel even safer than ever using whatever 30W oil I have on hand. I’m not encouraging anyone else to do so, esp. if the manual specifically says “use Crosman PellgunOil”, but I wonder if there couldn’t be some profit involved as well.

        Sorry, PellgunOil is kind of a personal crusade of mine — I think I’ve posted this information before, but the speculation continues about what is PellgunOil!


        • BG_Farmer,

          but I wonder if there couldn’t be some profit involved as well.

          Ya think? :-)

          Personally, I don’t believe there’s any for-profit company that operates outside of this concept. Everything companies do is motivated by profit. Companies rarely produce products simply for goodwill. I have nothing against companies making money (I cherish the free-enterprise system), and I have nothing against people substituting generic products because they feel a company may be ripping them off by offering a commonly available, inexpensive product at an exorbitant rate. But some people like the convenience of the small tube of Pellgunoil, even if they know they’re paying a lot more than what the product is probably worth.

          I can buy steak a LOT cheaper than I can get it at Outback Steakhouse, but that’s never deterred me from eating there :-)

          Edith


          • Edith,
            Free enterprise rocks; I wish there was more of it, but it does not supersede the much older dictum: caveat emptor. My job is not to buy whatever a vendor sells like some hog at the trough eats whatever slop gets thrown out, but to inform myself and — if necessary — hold my nose and eat the slop :). Or maybe the slop is to my liking sometimes, or desirable for some other reason, but in every case I make the choice and am free to feed at some other trough. Intelligent choices are impossible without information, that’s all. Outback sounds good :)!


        • Oh man do I understand you. I’ve been posting that Monolec page with its extreme detergency for a few years too. It seems people don’t want to believe it. I don’t think the world is ready for the truth yet ;)
          They want to believe it’s ATF so hard… Some people say pellgun oil will destroy seals and ATF is much better.
          Let’s fight for the truth !

          J-F


          • J-F,

            Maybe, people don’t care since Pellgunoil is so inexpensive. It’s just not worth the time and effort to investigate things yourself for something that’s insignificantly small in the large scheme of things and when you compare it to the much larger cost of guns, accessories & ammo.

            Edith


            • I don’t think so, at least not with those who argued with me.
              Some insist on the non-detergent, some on the ATF part because of the color (as if coloring could not be added to oil… If it’s red it HAS to be ATF).
              And I must admit I’m a bit surprised by the quantity of people wanting something else because pellgun oil is too expensive.
              I must admit I buy it because of the convenient packaging. I bought a few at a store that was clearing it’s airgun stuff and I have a bunch left so I should be good for at least another 2 years.
              If I find a more convenient container, I might buy a larger container. Until then it will be PellgunOil.

              J-F


              • I see red diesel fuel and kerosene nowdays. So what is Pellgun oil now ????
                I know….it’s red Hawiian Punch !!!!

                twotalon


                • So it can lubricate airguns, keep the seals from drying out in CO2 guns AND quench your thirst.
                  I better go buy a gallon of it right now!

                  I’d like to know just how much the “extreme detergency” vs. the “non-detergent” oil really changes something but short of buying a large sample of the same gun and testing them over a long perido of time there’s not much way to know for sure and even then it would be accurate for that gun only.

                  J-F


        • Well, if Crosman’s data sheet names it, here’s a link to the maker’s blurbs
          http://www.le-international.com/uploads/documents/8420%20-%208450%20Flyer.pdf

          They do mention it being used in air compressors, but I’m sure they mean standard shop pressures — 120-180PSI maximums.

          I still don’t think I’d recommend it for spring models… 425degF is on the low side for flash point given the momentary heat build up upon firing — you might as well squeeze a fast food french fry or two for the oil…

          “Monolec” sounds like another proprietary compound like Teflon based lubricants.

          And… “detergents”, by definition, are compounds that attract water on one side, and oils on the other. In laundry, the detergent is in solution with the water, and oil-loving side tugs greasy dirt from the fabric. Engine detergents are likely the other direction — solution in the oil, with the water-attractant side pulling H2O molecules away from metal surfaces (to reduce sludge build-up).

          LE,Inc’s http://www.le-international.com/uploads/documents/1150%20TDB%20Flyer%20PV.pdf has a fractionally higher flash point, and “seals” are explicitly called out. I didn’t browse all their oils, but they sure seem to favor red dyes.


          • It is a pretty ordinary oil for big diesel engines. Monolec is just a brand name for their set of friction reducers and/or anti-wear agents in the additive pack (and I would guess the “recipe” is either secret or patented). I can surmise this one has a good dose of ZDDP (anti-wear) given the warning about silver bearings; it might have some moly also, as well as any number of other compounds. I should look for a virgin oil analysis (aka VOA) of it, although I think what is important in an airgun is that it is “oil” :).

            Definitely not for putting into the chamber of a springer or in a high pressure chamber like a PCP!

            The red color is a little different. I had some 30W that was completely clear (no tint), but it was hard to check levels until the engines ran quite a few hours and picked up some color.


  16. Thank you guys for all the information.
    I was trying to solve some controversy between the manual and what the manufacturer said.
    I prefer to take care of my equipment myself.
    Lately I have seen lots of things break one day after the warranty expires.
    Coincidence!


    • There is more to the problem with the issue of maintaining proper barrel tension in the Crosman break-barrels . The barrel tension is dependent on the length and finish of the breech bolt sleeve the barrel actually pivots on . The breech bolt passes through that sleeve and pulls the right side of the fork into the left ,but if the sleeve is to long ,it will have play, no matter what the washers are made of. Those break barrels also suffer from weak barrel detents as well. A stronger spring or a ball bearing dropped in behind the detent spring will increase the lock up force.I have made brass washers and used the plastic ones and the it doesn’t matter unless you fuss with the other parts as well. Brass ones have to be sized carefully to take up the play, and the plastic ones deform to eliminate it temporarily. I think they use plastic because it is easier to assemble the rifles without the fuss of custom fitting. Also if that sleeve is rough inside, it will cause the breech bolt to come loose gradually as the barrel is cocked due to friction. Moly will help there, as well as polishing the breech bolt and inside of the sleeve. You don’t want the barrel to just flop open . It should stay half way up on it’s own if you release the barrel after you cock the gun. You can also add a lock screw to the breech bolt to maintain the barrel tension after you get it right. There are a couple ways to do that ,but it takes a good drill press and drilling ,tapping skills.


  17. Thank you Robert,

    Now the accuracy is OK (the riffle is still new), but in the future if those washers start to wear and create problems I will have to do something. I will keep in mind your suggestions.
    For how long (how many shots), your washers performed well?
    Does it make sense to order new ones from Crosman?

    Best Regards!

    Cantec


    • Cantec: Glad to help.The one Quest 1000 that I have messed with the most, has a new set of plastic washers on it now that I’ve changed it to a .22 cal from the original .177. I originally made the brass washers for it and that is when I discovered that my breech bolt sleeve was a hair too long. I could have made even thicker washers but it was easier to take a couple thou off of the sleeve, since it stood proud of the breech block. I also discovered that the newer guns are a good bit tighter and have better QC than my older guns. My newer G-1 Extreme is WAY! better than the first Quest I bought. The new .22 barrel I used was better machined and a bit bigger(tighter) in the breech block area. As far as how long will the plastic last?I probably had over 15000 shots on that gun and half of them were with the original plastic washers. When I got the .22 barrel I just used new plastic washers supplied by Crosman. I think that you should just change them out if you get play. The play is more of an issue if you scope the gun. There are folks who sell brass replacements that might be just what your looking for if you don’t want to mess with making them yourself. I use a 50/50 moly / non detergent30 wt oil mixture on mine. Just keep in mind that accuracy issues concerning the breech area of those Gamo clones is not limited to just one thing. The washers are cheap from Crosman ,maybe $1.50 for the two. In a pinch, Lowes has 5/16″ inside dia. ones that can be made to work in both brass and plastic .


      • Robert,

        Thanks for the info!
        If the washers are that cheap and available, I don’t care replacing them from time to time.
        I love target shooting and the annual pellet count should be around 7-9000.
        After the first 500 pellets I am hitting one inch target at 20 yards 80% of the times.
        Is this OK for this type of scoped (3×9 32) Crosman Nitro 177?

        Best regards
        Cantec


      • Robert,

        You replaced the 177 barrel with 22.
        What is that you did not like about the 177?
        Now that you have 22 what is the difference?
        I know the theory, but personal experience is interesting.

        Regards,
        Cantec


        • Cantec : With the open sights I can get 10 shot 1″ groups consistently at that range with pellets that it likes . My .177 barrels liked the heavy H&N Barracuda Match pellets. I also like those for hunting squirrels with the .177. I changed the barrel for three reasons, one because I wanted to see if parts from other guns within that same design family would really interchange easily. Two, because I prefer a .22 cal for pesting and hunting. The bigger pellet is easier to handle with numb fingers and it makes a bigger hole than the .177 pellet ,both of which usually penetrate the target at 20 yards or so. And third, because the G-1 Extreme I have did shoot better than the older Quest. Both were .177 and I began to think that the barrel was the culprit. BTW, I also replaced the sight on the Quest with one from a Chinese Qb_6 which fits on the dovetails. The factory sight ,which is plastic has a lot of play in it. For awhile I even had a Williams receiver sight on mine. It’s the same one PA sells in their accessory section under open sights, for $29.95. BTW, my .22 barrel likes RWS superdomes the best.


          • Robert,

            My 177 doesn’t have open sights so I cannot test it.
            For my rimfire 22 LR the scope gives me the same accuracy as open sights.
            I even get the same 1″ groups at the same range with my Crosman 1377 pistol.
            Recently I had to shoot a snake from 6 feet and couldn’t do it with the scoped 177. So I had to take the 22LR with open sights and CB longs.
            I will check the open sights you suggested for my 177.

            Regards

            Cantec


  18. B.B.

    I have a question that I believe you can answer best.
    In your opinion which air riffle has the best bang for the buck in terms of:

    Low cost.
    Up to 50 yard accuracy.
    Enough killing power for rabbit hunt.
    Low cost ammo.
    Good overall quality and durability.
    Not dependent on external compressed air supply.
    Easy to shoot accurately with minimum training.
    Available at the stores now.

    I know, paradise is not on earth, but what if … ?

    Regards!
    Cantec


    • Cantec,

      That airgun doesn’t exist. Had you stopped at 35 yards I would have said a Blue Streak or a Benjamin 392. Had you not said “Available in stores now” I would have said a Diana 34.

      But you also said “Easy to shoot accurately” so you want a Discovery but are not willing to pay for it, use compressed air nor shop online. You have painted yourself into a corner!

      B.B.


      • B.B.

        I had that feeling too, but which one comes as close as possible?
        It is not reasonable to buy one of each for their advantages.

        Regards!
        Cantec



          • B.B. Thank you for your help!

            I observed for longtime how different types of equipment are developed.
            At the beginning manufacturers are trying to make their product as good as possible.
            They need to build their reputation.
            There is a peak of the quality of every product.
            When the reputation is built and the sales go up, why not start to cut corners and reduce the cost. Perhaps increase the price too.
            Maximizing profit.
            I understand. They are in business to make money.
            The fact that we have riffles is a “side effect.”
            But this is not something new.
            It is a pity nothing comes close to Diana 34.

            Regards!
            Cantec


            • Cantec,

              You hit the nail on the head. Companies start off making good products with tight QC and then slack off and get rid of features or cheapen the product by using inferior materials/components. Once they’ve established a good reputation, a lot of the reasons they have a good rep are flushed.

              Edith


            • B.B.

              I secretly hoped you prove me wrong on this one.
              Never mind.
              I developed a successful approach to this situation.
              I just follow strictly the store return policy.

              Best regards!
              Cantec


      • B.B.

        From the riffles you suggested above I liked the Diana 34 (I had bad experience with multipumps when shooting too much.)
        I know, it is not available, but is there another similar to the 34 or as close as possible?
        Do I need a scope to achieve the maximum effective range of the riffle (if my eyes are still good)?

        Your help and experience are greatly appreciated.

        Regards!
        Cantec


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