by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Today’s report is the culmination of a guest blog from reader HiveSeeker about his Crosman 2400KT.
If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me.
Over to you, HiveSeeker.
The 2400KT CO2 carbine is available exclusively from the Crosman Custom Shop.
This report covers:
- Accuracy for .22 caliber: Wows and boos
- Benjamin Pointed Expanding pellets from the Ultimate Hunting Pellet Assortment (UHPA)
- Air Arms Falcon pellets
- The Crosman clan family reunion
- Benjamin Discovery Hollow Point (UHPA) pellets
- Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum pellets, Benjamin Discovery Domed Magnum (UHPA) pellets, and Crosman Premier Hollow Point pellets
- Benjamin Discovery Hollow Point pellets (500-pellet tin)
- .22 Crosman Premier pellets (boxed)
- JSB Diabolo Exact Jumbo pellets (15.89 grains)
- JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo Monster pellets
- RWS Meisterkugeln pellets
- RWS Superdome pellets
- Conclusion for .22 caliber
Accuracy for .22 caliber: Wows and boos
The accuracy test for the .22 HiveSeeker 2400KT with 18-inch Crosman barrel was also conducted from a bench rest at 10 yards, with 10-pellet groups measured center-to-center. You’ll see that a few of those gremlins are still alive and well, infesting my .22 pellet bin, too! As I did with the .177 pellets, I’ll list my accuracy results alphabetically. Space will again limit our discussion to only the very best pellets — with one notable exception that we’ll address first!
Benjamin Pointed Expanding pellets from the Ultimate Hunting Pellet Assortment (UHPA)
I’d already spent a fair amount of quality time with this gun before I finally settled down for some serious accuracy testing. I thought I had a pretty good idea what to expect. The Benjamin Pointed Expanding (Destroyer style) pellet from the Ultimate Hunting Pellet Assortment (UHPA) was one of the few I hadn’t already tried, so I started my official accuracy testing with it — just out of curiosity. Then, something went wrong with my pistol! Pellets were flying all over the target! Was my barrel loose? Had my scope lost its zero? I immediately tried a previously accurate pellet and everything returned to normal. Nope — the 2400KT just does not like the Benjamin Pointed Expanding pellet one bit! It made a huge 2.353-inch group — the worst we’ll see — and repeat testing was almost as bad. This was a confidence-shaking experience! Thankfully, though, this gun got along much better with nearly every other pellet tested.
Benjamin Pointed Expanding pellets from the Ultimate Hunting Pellet Assortment (UHPA) scatter like flushed quail! I have a hard time believing that this 2.353-inch group came out of the same barrel as the next group. The Pointed Expanding UHPA is not a pellet for the 2400KT! I’m continuing to show you my targets placed over a contrasting color background to highlight the groupings.
Air Arms Falcon pellets
The Air Arms Falcon was the pellet that got us off to such a great start in the .177 2400KT. Could I hope for a repeat performance? Why, yes I could! Ten Air Arms Falcons went into a reasonable 0.390-inch group, but there was a gremlin in the bunch! The 9 well-behaved members of that group huddled tightly together in 0.178 inches center-to-center. A second group I shot clustered all 10 pellets in 0.265 inches. Very, very nice!
The Air Arms Falcon does very well in either caliber in the Crosman 2400KT! This group measures 0.390 inches center-to-center, but 9 pellets squeezed into 0.178 inches! This is very good!
I also just had to show you that humongous Air Arms Falcon tin, which dwarfs everything else in my pellet bin! (Know that I’ve got big hands!)
The Crosman clan family reunion
You’ll recall that these six pellets are very similar. Except for domes or hollow points, they’re identical in nearly every way, including weight (14.3 grains). They also performed almost identically when we looked at velocity, except for the slightly slower Benjamin Discovery Hollow Point UHPA. Accuracy for this group ranged from 0.521 to 0.949 inches and averaged a mediocre 0.750 inches. Note that the boxed Crosman Premier is a new addition to the stable since the velocity testing — and the only one for which I’ll actually show you a target.
Benjamin Discovery Hollow Point (UHPA) pellets
The Benjamin Discovery Hollow Point UHPA was slightly slower than the rest of the Crosman clan when we tested velocity, and it put 10 pellets in 0.949 inches — the worst of the family. This pellet is now the real black sheep of the Crosman clan, as the slowest and least accurate of the entire bunch, with the lowest muzzle energy as well.
Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum pellets, Benjamin Discovery Domed Magnum (UHPA) pellets, and Crosman Premier Hollow Point pellets
Accuracy was equally poor among the Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum, Benjamin Discovery Domed Magnum (UHPA), and Crosman Premier Hollowpoint, ranging from 0.803 to 0.831 inches. No redeeming of the family honor here, but at least these members of the Crosman clan stick together!
Benjamin Discovery Hollow Point pellets (500-pellet tin)
There was a glimmer of hope in the 0.573-inch group from the Benjamin Discovery Hollowpoint (500/tin), but that’s still not enough to clear the family name.
.22 Crosman Premier pellets (boxed)
Despite the mediocre accuracy I’d already seen from the rest of the Crosman clan, I had very high expectations for the boxed .22 Crosman Premiers. This popular pellet is another of B.B.’s staples, and I hoped it would perform as well in the 2400KT .22 as its absolutely amazing little brother did in the 2400KT .177. Alas, it was not to be. Ten pellets went into 0.521 inches center-to-center. However, I’ll re-test this favorite at 20 yards to see if ballistics tighten the group at that range. Despite my disappointment, the boxed Premier was nevertheless the best of the Crosman clan. Although B.B. and I both thought that the Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum and Benjamin Discovery Domed Magnum (UHPA) were identical to these boxed Crosman Premiers, the boxed Premiers shot noticeably better.
This is the only Crosman clan group that I’m going to show you. The boxed Crosman Premier was the best of the bunch at 0.521 inches.
During the Crosman clan velocity testing, I noticed that the domed pellets had much wider velocity spreads than the hollow points. I speculated that accuracy might be better with the more consistent hollow points. However, the average group size of the domed pellets (0.725 inches) was essentially the same as the hollow points (0.775 inches). Overall, the two pellet types appear to perform identically.
In summarizing the Crosman clan, I have to say that, for a Crosman airgun, the 2400KT doesn’t particularly like .22 Crosman pellets. Thankfully, the variety of imports available provide some very nice alternatives that indeed showcase what a fine little carbine Crosman can put together for you.
JSB Diabolo Exact Jumbo pellets (15.89 grains)
Wow! This is what I’ve been hungering for since those Air Arms Falcons! Ten JSB Diabolo Exact Jumbos (15.89 grains) made a single 0.266-inch hole. Sweet! More testing resulted in slightly larger groups, but this pellet is a definite keeper.
I wish we were seeing more good groups up to this point, but the 15.89-grain JSB Diabolo Exact Jumbo fills the bill at 0.266 inches!
JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo Monster pellets
I’m only going to mention the JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo Monster because it had the highest muzzle energy. I had hoped that the very low velocity spread on this giant pellet would result in decent accuracy, but performance was middle-of-the-line at 0.413 inches. However, assuming a manageable trajectory, that group size should put this high-energy hitter within a 1-inch vital zone out to 20 yards.
RWS Meisterkugeln pellets
Here’s another keeper! The RWS Meisterkugeln was one of my earliest .22 ammo purchases. As a result, I shot more groups with this one than any other. My best group was 0.313 inches, with most of the remainder under 0.400 inches. I’ll definitely be buying more!
This may look like a 3-shot group, but it’s not a 3-shot group! It is a 10-shot group! Ten pellets went into 0.313 inches center-to-center. Not bad! This was consistently one of the best pellets for this gun.
RWS Superdome pellets
All’s well that ends well! The very popular RWS Superdome did just fine in the 2400KT: 0.297 inches, center-to-center. That’s tight! I have high expectations for the 20-yard test as well. This gives us a very nice wrap-up to the Crosman 2400KT .22 accuracy test.
A thumbtack measures 0.44 inches across. This group measures 0.297 inches, center-to-center. That makes this gun a tack-driver with the RWS Superdome!
Below is a summary table of all my accuracy results with the .22 HiveSeeker. There were a lot fewer gremlins in these pellets so I did not list the best 9-in-10.
Accuracy results from 20 different pellets tested in the .22 2400KT with 18-inch Crosman barrel. Nine (45%) grouped under half an inch. There were fewer gremlins in this group so I did not list the best 9-in-10.
Conclusion for .22 caliber
As you might expect, accuracy with the .22 Crosman barrel was not as good as the .177 Lothar Walther match barrel costing four times as much. There were also fewer .22 pellets that did well in this gun. However, nearly half of them grouped under half an inch, and several grouped just over a quarter inch — not bad at all! While shooters may need to test a wider variety of pellets to find those that perform well in the .22 Crosman 2400KT, I’d still rate this gun very good in accuracy, especially among the limited number of other non-PCP .22 pistols available. In conclusion, if you’re looking for the power of a bigger spring-piston pistol and the accuracy and low recoil of a CO2 or pneumatic, you should consider the .22 Crosman 2400KT.
Can the Crosman 2400KT keep it together at 20 yards? I’ll address that topic in the comments to this part of my report.
Hiveseeker,
I’ve got another pellets for you to try in your .22 I was having good results with Tiger Superpoints tha I ran across at Wally’s.I was getting groups comparable to the Monsters mine likes so well until I gave them to my buddy for his Beeman Kodiak and couldn’t find any more. They finally had em back in stock so I snatched up 600 for under $20.
Ruger! ⊙ I gotta get off this phone, gotta be in court @8:00.
Catch y’all tomorrow!
Reb
Reb,
I haven’t seen these at Wally World, which I do frequent. Do you mean the RWS Superpoints? Thanks for the suggestion — I’d like to track these down and give them whirl!
Ruger Superpoints, they weigh in @ 1.1 grams which translates to 15.15 grains from what I understand. 200 for about$6.00
Found ’em, listed as “Ruger Impact Pointed .22 Pellets”. They don’t seem to be available locally, but free in-store pickup is available when shipped. I’ll have to order a tin or two to try–thanks!
Sorry, guess I forgot it was part of the impact series.
Hiveseeker,
Once again,..great report ! And,.. full of data, charts and misc. details., as usual.
So,……how did it do @ 20 yds. ?
On a side note,..and perhaps “Gremlin” related,…I cast my vote for having you do a report that involves head sorting and weighing VS accuracy. With your passion for detail, charts and graphs,…you would be perfect.
My 1 attempt at this involved 3 quality pellets, all weighed and head sorted, via calipers, and a chrony. The sorted pellets actually increased in spread 1,2 and 11 fps. from the unsorted ones. Now there’s a mystery to solve.
Again, great report(s),…..Chris
Chris and crew,
Thanks for your patience as I finished up my 20 yard test! This blog had already run longer than B.B. and I intended, and we agreed to forego another blog installment. So here’s a quick summary of the 20-yard test results using the best performers from 10 yards, measured center-to-center.
— Crosman 2400KT CO2 Carbine .177 @ 20 yards
Air Arms Falcon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.546”
Crosman Premier light (boxed) . . . . . . 0.713”
H&N Field Target Trophy (4.51 mm) . . . 0.548”
RWS Hobby . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.517”
None of my groups broke the half-inch mark, a real disappointment. The RWS Hobby was the best performer, with the Air Arms Falcon and H&N Field Target Trophy (4.51 mm) essentially tying for second place. The boxed Crosman Premier lights that were absolutely incredible at 10 yards scattered a bit at the 20 yard line.
— Crosman 2400KT CO2 Carbine .22 @ 20 yards
Air Arms Falcon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.061”
Crosman Premier (boxed) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.407”
JSB Diabolo Exact Jumbo (15.89 grains) . . 1.259”
RWS Meisterkugeln . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.961”
RWS Superdome . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.678”
Only two pellets, the RWS Superdome and RWS Meisterkugeln, scored under one inch in .22. When B.B. tested the very similar Crosman Outdoorsman 2250XE at 25 yards, he was similarly disappointed in its accuracy. He had hoped for quarter- to half-inch sized groups at this range, but his varied from a best of 0.889 inches with the RWS Hobby, to over 2 inches with most of the other pellets tested (www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/06/crosman-outdsoorsman-2250xe-part-3/). The Crosman 2400KT did slightly better at 20 yards, though I was still disappointed. Comments on that blog and a little more research on my part indicate that accuracy in Crosman 18-inch .22 barrels seems to be very variable.
I think this gun can do better in both .177 and .22 and bears further testing, but this was what I got with the time available for the 20-yard test. The .177 comes close to shooting better than I can at 20 yards, but the .22 will remain a plinker at that range until I find a better pellet — or roll the dice and try another Crosman barrel. Thanks to some suggestions from my fellow readers, I still have some more pellets to try!
Hiveseeker
Looks like that .177 caliber gun has a few less gremlins messing with it than the .22 caliber gun.
All and all not to bad of groups.
Try the JSB 15.9 and 18.1 gr pellets. The 18.1’s are the best in my (Crosman made) Benjamin Marauder pistol.
Feinwerk
I do like both of those JSB pellets you mention. I mostly shoot the 15.89’s or as you say the 15.9 JSB’s.
I got a question though. Do you notice any difference in the way they shoot? They seem to shoot pretty much the same to me for one being heavier than the other.
Hello GF,
Speaking of the P-ROD, the 18’s shoot slower than the 15.9’s but develop more fpe energy. They also group significantly tighter, as long as I keep the stock lightly pulled into my shoulder with the bottom fingers of shooting hand.
I keep several weights of JSB .22 pellets on hand. The only gun that shoots the 15.9’s really well is my RWS 54 and it turned out to be the best pellet for that gun.
Feinwerk
Thanks. I was just wondering what results somebody else was getting from them.
My guns that I have tryed them in grouped pretty much the same and the poi verses poa was pretty much the same.
Either way both good shooting pellets. I think anyway.
Feinwerk,
I did test the 15.89s, which shot 1.259”. However, I’m hearing good things about the heavier 18.13 grain pellets–another one on the list to try!
Not sure if this is a repeat post. A friend made a Ransom rest for his stock 2240 and I supplied maybe a dozen types and diameters of good pellets. Temp was 80-some degrees F and target was set at 20yds. He would “rest” the 2240 every few shots to let it re-acclimate. We judged by “best grouping” and unfortunately did not record group sized. But, after an afternoon with many CO2 carts consumed the three clear accuracy winners in that Crosman barrel were, you guessed it, 1, 2, and 3: RWS Superdome, RWS Meisterkugeln and JSB Exact diabolo (5.52mm) 15.89gr. I did not have the AA Falcon that day. My bad. Now I know.
Hi again Saab9000,
I think you mentioned those pellets before–but they’re all good and worth repeating! Of the trio the JSB (particularly) and Superdome were the most reliable performers across a variety of Crosman and Lothar Walther barrels. As you noted, I definitely recommend the Air Arms Falcon. And, just as I was wrapping up my blogs I finally purchased some Air Arms Diabolo Field and Field Heavies and was extremely impressed with them. I wish I’d found the latter two a lot sooner! As a group they have done very well in the 2400KT. Here’s from Part 14:
Shoulda included the accompanying text which is a good Cliff Notes on pellets here:
“Let me mention here that having put a lot of pellets through almost a half dozen different 2400KTs and even more barrels, several emerged as consistently accurate across the board in both .177 and .22. These were the boxed Crosman Premier (though sadly no longer available in .22), the Air Arms Falcon, and the RWS Hobby. Others worth trying include all the JSB pellets such as the JSB Diabolo Exact Jmbo, and the H&N Field Target Trophy which is available in different head sizes. Based on my success with the Air Arms Falcons I just recently tried two new pellets in this gun with excellent results, the Air Arms Diabolo Field and Air Arms Diabolo FieldHeavy.”
Lots of chatter here that the AA Diabolo Field is in fact = the JSB Exact Jumbo Diabolo 15.89gr but AA simply calls it their 16gr. Same with the JSB Exact Diabolo Heavy 18.13gr. AA’s Field Heavy lops off the decimal points so theirs is 18.0gr even. Hmmm…
Received Falcons today in 177 and 22. Alas, ambient temp here was 55F.
Hi Saab,
I’m not surprised to hear that as the performance of both pellets is of the same caliber, so to speak! I’ll have to pull out my magnifying glass and compare the next time I’m shooting. With so many big companies producing the product under various brands (I see this in electronics and optics a lot), this isn’t surprising.
You should find that the ~16gr JSB, AA and the FX appear identical and come in the same style tin! Watch this FWIW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhFW42mvPBM
The three of them get very similar BCs:
https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/
Hmmm….
Saab,
My understanding after being here a few years is that AA pellets are made by JSB,.. but the dies are AA owned. So,… the question is if the same die maker,.. made the dies to the same specs.? I suspect so. JSB gets a cut for the manufacturing and AA is responsible for the wear/tear/replacement of the dies,… while in the mean time riding on the coat tails of a great shooting JSB design.
Chris
Roger all that and all that is just fine with me.
When I just looked, the 13.43gr AA Falcon has no twin in the JSB lineup.
Hmmm…
Saab,
Hmmm,…. ehh? I like “Hmmm”. Hmmm makes us question,.. what is. That is good. As for the 13.43’s,… I have no answer. I suspect that you will be digging deeper. It could be that AA is just making a venture on their own,…. independent of a JSB model.
Chris
I think it may be the same pellet as this one:
JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo RS .22 Cal 13.43g
The RS designation translates to “rapid speed”.
Oh shoot. Geo791 has corrected my post, above. There is indeed an AA Falcon 13.43gr twin in the JSB lineup – the “RS”. I stopped looking when I saw the JSB “Express” 14.35gr. Plus the Falcon tin is the same design as the JSB. Another hmmmm… Oh well, enough.
Chris,
Thank you, sir (and your equally generous fellow readers). I think the next step WILL be measuring head sizes and weighing pellets, as you suggest. My left brain likes the idea; my right brain keeps asking if it will be fun? We’ll see!
If I were to get a pelletgage it would be the .22.
Also, try duct tape on the back of bulls when using domes. All shooting this weekend was done with duct tape and it made a huge difference in clean holes with domed pellets. I do use a new cardboard backer with every new target also. Maybe even shave some .001’s off those groups. 😉
Chris,
Yet another use for duct tape? I’m in!
Hiveseeker,
It works !!! Very well !
Chris
Chris, USA
So you tryed duct tape. I like it. That’s basically a part of how my target holder slash pellet trap is made.
Every little bit helps.
🙂
GF1,
Keep in mind,….my use of (duct tape) is directly on the (back) of the bull/paper. That is on top of cardboard that the target is taped to. Behind that,…..air.
The duct tape holds the paper together very well. You could do a “clover” and see the outline of all pellets clearly.
Chris, USA
My target holder / pellet stop has duct tape wrapped around it tight with about a inch of phone book over the 2×4’s.
And I use the plain white copy paper with drawn on dots or the stickers you told me about. Then I use masking tape about 2″ long on all 4 sides of the white paper and tape it to the duct tape thats on the target holder /pellet stop. I make sure I make the white paper very tight when I tape it on. But yes it will make nice clean holes also.
I’m not at all surprised to see those groups, Crosman are an underrated airgun barrel maker, and, in fact, stand squarely next to BSA and Weihrauch. IMO Walther don’t make a particularly good unchoked tube (though a tremendous choked one)
As for the Benjamin pellets, how long is this going to go on for, wierd designs are consistently rubbish (especially at range), as a community we should all be voting with our wallets.
Set a target up at 50 yards…and any design will group poorer than a well made, long tail dome..wadcutter, hollow, pointed or daft plastic bits stuck on.
Dom,
At 10 yards, this gun definitely out-shoots me (shoots better than I can) with the right pellet! I’ll be trying a few new pellets and a couple other things to see if I can’t bring the 20 yard performance into line as well.
I’ll have to get some of those Falcons, I keep hearing good things about them but I’m still waiting for my Monsters and wary of ordering anything else until I get something delivered here besides a pizza.
Reb,
In .22, the AA Falcons, 13.43, are running 1st, and AA Field,16.0, are 3rd. JSB 18.13 are 2nd. (all at 25yds.)
Chris
Chris,
What gun (sorry if I missed it) and what size groups are you getting? Regardless, you’ve given me a couple more to try.
Hiveseeker,
TX 200 in .22
Chris
Hiveseeker,
Sorry, 15mm. at 25 yds. is best. 20~25 is avg.
Chris
I’m not entirely convinced those three pellets are actually different
They are all made by JSB, the AA Fields are all made from a single Die…and I think that’s all there is to it.
Falcon are in the same building as Air Arms and are wholly owned by them….I’d be moderately surprised if the Falcon pellets aren’t rebadged AA Fields….which are, in themselves, JSB Exact’s…just slightly more consistent ones.
Dom
I might not be 100% clear on this but I do believe AirArms bought out some dies from JSB.
No, they are over there in the Czech republic still
Some people say there is a difference between them and JSB Exact….but I can’t see it, or weigh it
I think the difference is the same as CP’s in the tin or in the box….ie the AA’s are all single die
Certainly it would be a bit absurd for Falcon to commission yet another machine over there, when they are the same people as AA (both names are on the overalls)
Dom
I have used both myself and see no difference.
But check into it some more and see what you find. Like I said I do believe that AirArms has their own dies that use to belong to JSB.
If you find out anymore info I would love to know.
Thanks.
Factory is only 45 minutes from me, technically I could poke my nose in 🙂
Dom
Stop in and see what they say that would be good info if you can get them to talk about.
And if I recall I do believe it was BB that I heard that from.
As I understand it, they have their own dies…at JSB
Daystate pellets are also JSB….
I don’t think they are secretive about it, having your pellets made by JSB is as shameful as having you barrel made by Walther
Dom
But what about AirArms.
Did they purchase dies from JSB? That’s the question.
Dom,
I can say 100% for sure that all 3 of the (above mentioned) ARE different. It is obvious with the naked eye. Just did it. On top of that,…the weight spread dictates that they would be.
Chris
Really?
I tend to use AA Fields as my default competition pellet, I really struggle to see a difference between them and Falcon’s or JSB of the same weight
Dom,
Perhaps we are not on the same “page”,….I took your reply as to mean the 3 pellets I mentioned (above) are the same. (13.43, 18.13, 16.0)
While I do not know, I could see that different pellets, from the (same) factory,..of the SAME (weight),…may in fact be identical,…just re-branded. If in fact, I do not like that type of marketing. If I want to try something “new”, I want to actually try something NEW !
Chris
I’ve really liked those AA Falcons in both .177 and .22. They’ve done well in multiple guns. Looks like some AA Field and Field Heavies are in the cards!
So many pellets, so little cash to buy them with and time to test them with!
You can box clever if you can unscrabble the marketing a bit, like I said, AA Fields and The Falcons seem to be the same pellet (which stands to reason as AA and Falcon are effectively the same company)…and in themselves just a more consistently made JSB Exact of the same weight
Daystate pellets are JSB Jumbo/AA Field heavy
Buy what’s on offer…my son mixed some of my JSB’s in with half a tin of AA Fields…difference on target has thus far been nil (though I cunningly call my every miss and blame him)
The Beeman FTS, Weihrauch FTS are all H&N FTT…if you find one of the brands reduced…buy them up
My HW77 is fond of H&N FTT and someone was selling a tube of ten tins of Weihrauch FTS at just over a third of the cost of buying H&N FTT….so I snapped them up and saved myself around $90
It’s odd you don’t get RWS Superdomes over there, it’s their flagship pellet, they market the slightly more “all round” Superfield..and inflict their pointeds and hollow points on you…but not their best hunter/field target ammo
Dom
This all could be true.
But tell me why the pellets would be renamed.
Maybe like the Beeman and H&N pellets.
You still haven’t showed any proof that the JSB and AirArms are or not made at the same plant.
If they are. Ok great.
But I would like to know if you said you live around the corner of the plant. Then let me know what you find out.
Thanks in advance if you find anything out.
It’s 40 miles away, and you are the only person on the planet who thinks AA make their own pellets lol
Even Air Arms claim their pellets are made by JSB…
Why on gods green earth would they haul a production line from the Czech republic?.
Air Arms claim “made to our specification on specific dies at JSB”
BB doesn’t think they are made in the UK lol
Next time I’m that way I’ll get them to sign an affidavit for you…but a quick google will do it 🙂
Dom
I did do a search just now like you mention.
And from what I found is that we are both right if the information I found is true.
JSB does make the AirArms pellets in the JSB factory in dies that AirArms purchased from JSB.
And just a little note for you. If you read back through my comments there is nowhere that I say AirArms is making the pellets with JSB dies. The comment I made was that I think AirArms bought dies from JSB.
So maybe you got confused about what I meant.
Anyway have a good day. Time for me to shoot.
Dom,
Thanks for the info. Notes made. As a consumer, it would be nice to know what pellets are different and which ones are just “re-branded”. That would be quite the job given the size of pellet offerings in the P.A. catalog. Plus, I am sure that some companies/mfgrs. would not be so willing to give up such info./secrets.
It’s not the worse sin in Marketing by a long shot, by and large most airgun manufacturers want to be able to provide a one stop shop, and if you have a Walther barrel it makes sense to get JSB to brand you some pellets…in a way it’s a help…they work well in those barrels, ditto the H&N/Weihrauch rebranding, it simply doesn’t make sense to open up manufacturing of precision ammo when companies are around that do it so well
Back in the day, Webley and BSA made pellets, as did Sussex Armoury (that turned into AA) but they wouldn’t hold water now…they were pretty terrible, but in those days 20 yards on open sights was stretching things out a bit…no one envisioned optics and 60 yard FT targets.
Nowhere near as murky as buying a Hatsan or a Gamo with the name Webley or BSA on it…or a Crosman/Benjamin etc knocked up wholly or in part in the land of the Won Ton Noodle and shaky QC.
Don’t even get me started on the puff of hot air known as Beeman 🙂
Heck, sometimes “badge engineering ” isn’t a bad thing, I think Chrysler might have sold a few more Crossfires if their marketing went “Mercedes SLK that we haven’t quite ruined if you ignore the flappy trim and silly styling…it IS cheaper you know”
Dom,
Ran outa’ room for a reply. Thanks again for the insight. All point’s taken.
Still, if I want to spend my $ on something different, I want to get different.
I would PAY $ for that info. 5 $ anyways.
Oh well,…. one can dream. 😉
Thanks again, Chris
Wow! The city’s loving althis rainfall there were at least a half dozen code violations for tall grass.
I only saw the outcome of one @ $150.
Tom and Edith:
Are you getting rain from that tropical depression that is moving on shore? From the news it appears that your area may get 6 to 8″.
I hope that you stay high and dry.
Jim
Jim,
Yep, it’s raining.
B.B.
Here too! I was gonna ride my bike to physical therapy but it’s too wet to be riding next to 70 mph traffic.
Reb,
“To wet”,….???? And you (would) ride next to 70 mph. traffic if it was dry ????
Now that is some kahunas !!!!
Chris
About 2 months after I got outta the hospital I was riding along that guest and my front tire got into the curb so bad I went over the handlebars and reinjured 2 broken ribs.
But it was all in the ne of liberty!-’74 jailbreak⊙
HiveSeeker:
Another excellent report. Now I really want a 22 to go with my 177. I wish that the Custom Shop would offer a longer Lothar Walther barre ll in the 16″ to 18″ range (cost prohibitive maybe?).
In the comments to Part 7, you mentioned that you had to return both guns to replace leaky valves. Last night, my 177 dumped the first CO2 powerlet immediately on the piercing shot. I let the gun warm up for about an hour then inserted another CO2 powerlet, It was leaking slowly and I was able to tighten up the cap to stop the leak. This was the first time that I have had any problems with my gun. I guess if this problem persists, I’ll be sending y gun back for repairs.
I wonder if Crosman received a batch of bad valves.
Great report as always,
Jim
barre ll should be barrel. Smart phone is not so smart. And my fingers are too fat.
Jim
I also dumped a few Co2 cartridges upon the piercing shot, further firing didn’t get it to seal and the gas was dumping so fast I didn’t think to check the cap immediately but since I got the HIpac in I’ve had no problems.
Reb
JimQwerty123,
I would definitely buy two more of these guns if the Lothar Walther barrels were available in another length in .177, and any length in .22.
The problem with my two guns leaking began gradually and eventually worsened, then failed. Some comments I found online suggested that Crosman may have gotten a crop of bad seals, though what they actually replaced (according to the slip in each box) were the valves. If you do need to return, Crosman Customer Service was outstanding.
HiveSeeker:
So far the leaking has only happened a couple of times out of, at this point, over 100 CO2 powerlets. I got my fingers crossed that I will not have to send my 2400 back. I’m glad to hear that Crosman’s customer service is so good.
Maybe we can get Tom to put a bug in their ear about longer Lothar Walther barrels. And maybe Tom can recommend that Crosman add the 13xx series to the custom shop. I would like to have a pumper that matches the 2400 for the cold months.
I hope that Crosman is giving you a commission on all of the guns that you have sold for them through this blog series. I did not know of the custom shop before your series and I am amazed at how reasonable guns are through the custom shop. Without this series I would probably not have my 2400 and it is my favorite gun to shoot.
Thanks for the series and all the great information,
Jim
JimQwerty123,
I’m not sure how many Powerlets I went through before the problem became serious in my two guns. One failed slightly sooner, but I don’t think I had exceeded 100 Powerlets even with all that testing so your gun may not have the issue.
I’d like to see more barrel options as well. I could have sworn I had seen a 14″ in .177 but it is gone from the Custom Shop listing now. And I’d love to see a .22 Lothar Walther but don’t think there would be enough of a market for this to happen — the .22 is just not the target caliber.
I’m really glad this blog series helped you to “discover” this gun, and you might recall from Part 1 that I almost completely missed this gun as well. It’s not in any catalogs, and Crosman doesn’t really promote their custom shop a whole lot. I think that they must not make quite as much money on a custom gun as they do on the blister-packed assembly-line products.
I’ve got to say (again!) that an almost recoil-free gun as powerful as “the most powerful spring-piston handgun made” in .22, this accurate in .177, that requires no heavy pumping or cocking effort, with an adjustable trigger, at this price point is an incredible bargain.
HiveSeeker:
Thanks for the additional information on the accuracy results at 20 yards. My accuracy has not been as good as yours but fairly close. I thought that it was my poor eye sight. My 177 likes the JSB Straton pellets from the JSB sampler. You might want to give them a try.
It looks like 24″ barrels can be had directly from Lothar Walther if you are willing to pay the price but I did not see an OD of 7/16″, which I believe is the OD for the Crosman barrels.
Jim
The Discovery barrel will work also.
Hive,
Not sure if you have seen it but the Crosman custom shop is showing a “new” barrel option for your 2400.
It is a 14.6″ Lothar Walther match barrel in .22!
Thanks Belgrath! I saw that and ordered another 2400KT in .22 shortly after they became available. Accuracy is definitely better than my other .22 with the 18″ Crosman barrel. Velocity is lower though and I am FINALLY going to try some very simple velocity modding!
I was surprised to see that the Custom shop did not have any rifles.
As popular a platform as their CO2 and entry level PCP’s are I figured they would do more than pistols and carbines.
Hiveseeker
I too am interested in some accuracy data at 20 yards and curious as to which pellet came out on top.
I use Cps from the tins at wally world in my Benji Titans 22 cal/ 14.3s and my Venom 177 cal/ 10.5s as well as my 2289 18 inh barreled 22cal and at 20 yards have no trouble with sub 1/2 inch groups so I think there are some variances in barrel quality from crosman. But then it may also be a velocity issue as well as my 22 Titans are shooting in the 780s and the 2289 in the low 800s, the 177 venom is shooting in the low 800s as well so I believe the lower velocities you are getting out of your CO2 guns is making a good bit of difference.
I just got my 24 inch 177 disco barreled, Lloyds 16 inch HPA tubed gun together and will have you some chrony numbers from it later today and I am working on the 20 inch Avanti LW barreled 177 gun with a 14 inch Lloyds HPA tube right now so I will have some chrony numbers on that as well in the next week or so as I am going to use o ring buffers in the 20 inch gun to try to get a flatter shot curve as well as higher shot count and when the tuning on it is done the 24 inch gun will get the same o ring setup. I am looking to achieve 900 fps with at least a 20 shot count if not more per fill with a 20 fps spread over those 20+ shots as they are going to be my light weight FT guns so I don’t wear down so quick toting my Mrod up and down the hill on our FT course.
I will post some untuned chrony numbers on the 24 inch gun later today.
BD
Buldawg76,
Sounds like you are running your own little “tune shop” there, with all the projects you got going on !
How is the FT coming along anyways ? Sounds like you are moving to some lighter weight heavy hitters.
Would’nt be cool to blow away a 3000$ high ender,… at least for one day? Yeah,…… 😉
Chris
Chris, USA and Hiveseeker
I most definitely have far to many projects going at once and it is hard to decide which to try to complete next, but for now it is my 2240 177 cal disco HPA FT guns and so far I have the 24 inch disco barreled one up and running and got some initial data to use for fine tuning and I know for sure I have to put some o rings in to limit valve travel to allow for the fps I want without a unusable ES in the shot string as here is some chrony data.
2240 24 inch .177 barrel and 16 inch 113 cc disco tube at 2000 psi fill with adjustable hammer spring using disco hammer spring at preload screw flush with back of tube plug shooting CP 10.5s.
Low = 898.7 fps
High = 951.7 fps
Avg = 934.5 fps
ES = 52.93 fps
SD = 15.09fps
This is just a little to hot as my goal is 920 fps plus or minus 10 fps for a 20 fps spread which is right under the 20 fpe limit I have to shoot at with a ending shot count of 17 in this spread but was able to get a total of 25 shots with last shot at 784.6fps at 600 psi remaining
Just to see what it is capable of I turned the adjuster in 1 turn from flush and got these numbers.
Low = 894.0
High = 978.4
Avg = 950.2
ES = 84.89
SD = 26.77
This is just to see if it was capable of more and I am sure if I turn the adjuster in 4 to 5 turns from flush it will break the 1000 fps mark. This string yielded 18 shot on the spread with a total before going below 800 fps of 24 shots at 791.7 with still 600 psi left.
This set of chrony numbers are with the stock 2240 spring with 1/4 inch thick spacer in front of the spring inside the hammer with 2000 psi starting fill and 6 turn in from flush with the spring adjuster. The first shot was at 4 turns but proved to way to low at 597.6fps so the hammer spring was turned in to the 6 turns as stated and the second shot was at 724.8fps and the 6 turns was max for spring tension with the stock 2240 spring as it would not cock at any more spring tension due to coil bind.
Low= 597.6fps
high = 863.8fps
Avg = 797.9fps
ES = 266.1fps due to first shot at 597 fps and hammer spring adjustment to 6 turns
SD = 56.87fps same reason as above
This string is way to large of a spread but would have been closer if I had thrown out the first shot before I turned up the spring tension. There was 16 shots in this total string of 41 shots before going below 800 fps that were from 802.4 fps as a low to a high of 868.6 at shot number 33 so that is an acceptable velocity to use as a Ft gun but not what I am after and again end fill was 600 psi.
The next and last string for the day was started with the same 6 turns of spring tension only dropping the fill pressure to 1500 psi instead of 2000 psi.
Low = 791.9fps
High = 868.9fps
Avg = 843.7fps
ES = 76.97fps SD = 20.76
This string was a total of 20 shots at the stated numbers with the first shot at 832.4fps down to the 791.9fps on shot 20 so it much better in the ES and SD but still not at the 920 fps middle range I am after and end fill was 700 psi.
So with the o ring buffers in place I should be able to go back to 2000 psi and get a string close to the 920 fps with a much lower ES and higher shot count as well and will just have to play with the o ring stack to attain the 920 fps with a ES of 20 fps or less and am shooting for a shot count of 25 to 30 above 900 fps. Its close and obtainable but just need some more fine tuning with o rings and going back to the disco spring as I have plenty of adjustment left with it to smack the valve as hard as I need to get a shot string in the range I am after.
BD
BD,
Wow, that’s a lot of info. For anyone with 2240, you just provided a wealth of tune info.
I have to ask,…what is the “magic” of the 920 fps mid range ? Chairgun,…. says that is optimal for you FT endeavors?
Of course, you started a bit of a quandary,….now we will be waiting for 25 and 50yd. groups ! 😉
Chris
Chris, USA
The magic 920 fps is to keep the flattest trajectory as possible and still be under the limit of 20 fpe so as not to be disqualified in a sanctioned match as the hunter class is limited to 20 fpe.
I may be just slightly over the 20 fpe mark with the CP 10.5s as I will most likely shoot the JSB 10,34s in matches but I am just not willing to waste expensive ammo while doing my tuning until I get it much closer to my desired goal so I use the wally world ammo in the tins to get in the ballpark and then will switch to my intended FT ammo of JSB 10,34s for the final fine tune of the guns.
Don’t forget I still have the 20 inch daisy Avanti LW barreled 2240 to tune as well.
But the tune will be very close as 4 inches of barrel should not make a lot of difference other than the choke making some small difference in the final tune.
BD
Buldawg
Don’t you just love tuning those Crosman guns.
You know the 2240’s on Co2 respond just as well with the adjustable striker spring and o-ring stacking to prevent valve stem bounce.
Well and the 1322’s and 1377’s also. (adjustable spring tension mod)
I actually had that 24″ Disco barrel on a 1377 with a steel breech. The one you have on your Lloyd tube converted 2240 that you got from me when it had the hi-pac conversion on it. I drilled out the end cap and made the spring tension adjustable on the 1377 I’m talking about. Had the 1399 stock on the 1377 and it was a nice shooting little gun.
Matter of fact I had that done to my gen 1 Mrod’s. The antibounce o-ring mod. And I did it on the Talon SS I had. It definatly helps give a more consistent shot count.
You ain’t got any other Crosman or Benjamin guns your working on right now do you?
🙂
I am feeling drawn down the dark path of . . . modding!
Wow, there is a ton of useful information in these blogs, no matter what you shoot or how casually or seriously you do it. Occasionally I run across one where I learn as much from the comments as I do from the blog itself — and with the quality of these blogs, that’s sayin’ somethin’!
Hiveseeker
There will be more to come as I get the other 2240 built and start the tuning on it as well so I am by no means anywhere near finished with these two 2240 HPA conversions. it will take me awhile as I have several project going at the same time so it can be difficult setting priorities for which one to complete next.
I can say for certain right now that the 2240s are pushed back since I just got all the parts I need to build and tune the 25 Mrod I got from GF1 and it is most certainly number 1 priority at this time and when done it will be sighted for zero at 75 yards with the full capabilities off being accurate to 1 inch groups at 100 yards so it will be my hunting/ long range plinking gun as my goal is to show one of our FT club members that a 600 dollar gun is capable of hitting the 100 yard spinner at our FT club sight range just as well and easy as his custom made 2500 dollar Rapid HM 1000X is I just will not get 60 shoots like his Rapid does since it has a regulated 500cc bottle versus my 215 cc unregulated cylinder on my 25 Mrod but will still be able to hit the spinner as easy as his Rapid does when completely done.
BD
I think there is something to this. I’ve heard of CF rifles having to slow a twist rate to stabilize a round, so the realoader drives it faster (even a little past max) and all of a sudden it is accurate.
Sam
I tend to agree with you as the velocity that a barrel is designed for has everything to do with the bullet weight, twist rate for that particular barrel.
Take an AR-15 for example as they can be bought with three different twist rates depending on the weight bullet you intend to shoot and the heavier and slower the bullet the faster you want it to spin.
BD
Gunfun1
You know better than that as I am just tuning on my 2240s till all the parts for the 25 I got from you get here Friday and then they will be on hold till I get the 25 done and tuned for 900 plus fps and 100 yard 1 inch groups to ring the spinner at 100 yard like I was doing with that Rapid I got to shoot this past weekend just to show Rob that a Mrod can ring that spinner at 100 yards as easy as his Rapid was doing I just will not get the 60 shots out of it like his Rapid does but then it has a regulated 500cc bottle as compared to the Mrods 215 cc unregulated tank but I bet I can get 16 to 20 shot at 900 fps plus out of the Mrod.
I just bought a regulator or the 177 that has the gauge port built in but it will read regulated pressure instead of tank pressure and it has lots of praise on the forums and will allow me to tune it to get 60 shots at 920 fps with a 1 to 3 % ES over the total 60 shot string. I just need a lighter hammer for it to be able to tune it and there was a guy on the GTA selling them but the only way you can get one now is to send him your gun to tune and you know that aint going to happen but he did give me all the info to make it so I will just make my own or see if you want to tackle it as it not much work at all but just needs to be 19 or 26 grams as I am still waiting for him to let me know which is best for the 177.
BD
Buldawg
Just let me know if you don’t want to do the hammer yourself. I’ll do it no problem.
Gunfun1
Yep will do as it just depends on if my buddy has his shop cleaned out or not so that I can get in there.
When I have the 25 apart I can get a better look at the hammer as the guy on the GTA was saying he made then in two weights and the 19 gram one was 100% MDS nylon and the 26 gram one was an aluminum inner with a MDS nylon outer sleeve pressed on the aluminum and he said for the 177 the 19 gram one was best with a slightly lighter hammer spring and that the OD should be at 1.052″ max at 75 degrees F and better at 1.050″.
I will email you a picture of the 26 gram ones that he made as the only difference is the heavier one has the aluminum center with a nylon outer like in the picture and the 19 or 20 gram as he said both weights are completely out of nylon. and for the hammer stroke screw he said to use a tapered tap and only tap the 1/4-28 thread most of the way thru the hammer but leave the last thread or so not completely tapped so the screw will not move on its own.
I will send pics now.
BD
Buldawg
Sounds easy enough.
But I wonder if maybe you can drill some places around the hammer to lighten it. You know kind of how they do on engine crankshaft counter balances when they balance the rotating assembly. Just a thought.
Gunfun1
That’s what I was thinking unless you have to take out to much to make it light enough and it does remain strong enough.
I will know more when I get the hammer out of the 25 and can actually look at it .
BD
Buldawg
There is way more material on the hammer than need be. Drilling 2 sets of four 1/4″ diameter holes 90 degrees apart on the hammer would lighten it alot plus still be strong.
And I see he is using a lighter hammer spring. You know that means he is probably running a lighter valve spring on the regulator side.
It’s all about the balance. And that’s probably why he wants people to send the guns to him now. But I bet you could still get the right balance with a modified factory hammer and lighter hammer spring.
It will be the same as you running the 2240 with the antibounce o-rings. I had to play with my gen1 Mrods striker springs when I did the o-rings. Matter of fact I had to adjust the power wheel to a different setting on the Talon SS.
I just might have a extra hammer for a Mrod. I have to look. I know its for either a Mrod or Disco. If it’s for a Mrod you can have it to modify if you want. I will have to see when I get home tonight and let you know.
Gunfun1
He said he had been selling them for three plus years but the demand had dried up so he made one last bunch of 50 in march and just sold the last one a few weeks ago. and that’s why he is only making them on a as needed basis.
Yes he did also state to use a lighter hammer spring as well and I have 6 or 7 forum post from the regulator supplier that give a wealth of tuning info as to the exact setting and results achieved and that is why I say I can get 60 shots at 920 fps with a 1 to 3 % ES as that are the results shown on those forum posts and one of them is from Ray Apelles so since he is on the crosman team you know he knows his stuff.
You are right it is all a balancing act so when I get the regulator and the light hammer it will be tuned to get 60 shots at 920 fps with a spread of less than 10 fps over those 60 shots and then we will see how much better my FT score improves as I know now my fps spread is at least 20 to 30 fps difference as the pressure in the gun falls and I fill half way thu the course to keep it as consistent as possible .
BD
Buldawg
I know you said he uses a different hammer spring.
But if the hammer gets lightened and the hammer spring gets lightened the factory Mrod valve would probably need a lighter spring in the valve pushing up against the top hat to keep it seated. If the factory spring was left in there the hammer might not have enough mass or I should say energy to open the top hat in the valve stem. That’s the balancing I’m talking about.
Gunfun1
You have to remember the valve will not have as much air pressure acting on it to help keep it closed against that hammer energy and is why you need to use the lighter hammer and spring so it does not knock that valve open to far and just waste air instead of all the air being used to just propel the pellet.
but you are also right as it may require different spring thru out the gun to get it just right and those forum post the regulator supplier sent me give most all that info for several different tunes and power levels for the 177 as well as the 22 Mrods.
The 25 unfortunately is not a good candidate for the regulator as the reg does not provide enough volume of air to achieve the power I am wanting out of it so I only bought one instead of two as the supplier even sent me info from the manufacturer as they are made in Holland and the guy I bought it from is just the importer, but the manufacture told him it is not designed to work well in a 25 but just the 177 and 22 cal Mrods
all the forum post I have read about this reg are very positive and also say the supplier is great to work with and will stand behind the product and I have to agree as he very promptly answered all my question as well as contacted the manufacturer to ask about its use in the 25 so I am confident that it is a very good product and if I am not satisfied I can get a complete refund as long as it is in undamaged condition.
so I believe I can get the 177 shooting even better than it is as it very well tuned now as it is but there is always room to improve and you know me never satisfied.
BD
Buldawg
I forgot that is what was basically going on with that FX Monsoon I had.
It didn’t have a rdgulator but they had such a light valve spring in the valve that when I rapid fired the gun semi-auto the top hat wouldn’t fully close and it would seep air out of the barrel.
So that’s why I say you have to watch how you balance the system.
Gunfun1
yep fully understood and if it does not work I always have my setting wrote down so I can tune back to the way it is now and get my money back but I truly don’t think that is going to be an issue with it and that it will only improve the gun.
BD
Buldawg
It sounds like they have it worked out from what your saying. So you will have post how it goes.
And you never satisfied? I don’t know what you mean. Never heard such a thing.
🙂
gunfun1
The thing I like is it replaces the gauge block as part of the regulator so it takes very little of the volume of the cylinder up and the forum post show how to open the valve side of the regulator up to regain that lost volume in the cylinder.
The only drawback is that the gauge reads regulator pressure not cylinder pressure so you don’t know the cylinder pressure but you can tell when it falls off the regulator .
BD
Gunfun1
going to go relax in the recliner so lets go to texts.
BD
Gunfun1
I guess we are taking over the blog as we are at the bottom of the blog and yet we have no reply buttons below are posts so is that its way of politely asking us to stop hogging the blog or what.
BD
Buldawg
If your on the PC you don’t see it. But the thread is getting thin.
I’m on my phone and I can see the thread getting smaller. It starts getting a line of one word under the next. Very hard to read that way.
Almost got to start a fresh reply at the bottom of the page when that happens.
And no reply button room!
Reb
On a PC you don’t see the thread of posts thinning down to one word lines like you used to so it all looks the same but the reply button disappears.
BD
Buldawg
I haven’t seen the one line post for awhile. But definitely gets smaller as you go.
Gunfun1
mine never get thin at all .
BD
Gunfun1
Yea on my PC you don’t see the thread getting thinner like you used to so that’s why the reply button was gone so I will try to remember that and start a new post but then you know my mind comes and goes as it pleases anymore.
BD
I seem to have to hit the post button at least twice in order for it to take and if I get distracted it’s really easy to lose a buncha typing so I’ve been keeping them down to filling in the box or just a little over so I don’t lose the post button like I just did.
Reb
Reb
it happen to me way to much if you stop typing for any small length of time so I try to not stopypimg before I hit the post button.
BD
Reb
meant stop typing
BD