by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
My report covers:
• This test
• Introduction
• Specifications
• TX200 Mark III Evaluation
• Walther LGU Evaluation
• Summary
This test
This will be the first official comparison test report I’ve ever written! I was opposed to comparison reports until it was recently pointed out to me that we buy electronics that way. Since I’d just purchased a new digital camera using the same method, that was hard to argue.
TX200 Mark II from Air Arms is the high-water mark for spring rifles.
Walther’s new LGU challenges the TX200. Is it serious?
Introduction
I selected the TX200 Mark III and the Walther LGU for this comparison. These are two high-end spring-piston airguns that are similar in price, features and quality. When a buyer looks at these guns, he should not be distracted by other spring guns or even by other powerplants. He wants a good, solid underlever spring-piston air rifle, and these 2 are at the top of the list.
New buyers may be confused by these 2 rifles that appear so similar. This report attempts to show their qualities as well as any differences between the rifles, so buyers can make an informed choice.
I’ve written several reports on the TX200. It’s been around longer, and I’ve tested it many times over the past few decades.
The Walther LGU is brand new, and the 4-part report I wrote about it was thorough, but cannot compete with the volume of reports I’ve written about the TX. It showed itself capable of shooting 10-shot groups that were slightly smaller than one inch at 50 yards, which means it’s a very accurate pellet rifle. With more testing, I’m sure this rifle would produce even better results. Here are some comparative specs:
TX200 Mark III Evaluation
The TX200 Mark III represents the highest point in the evolution of the spring-piston air rifle. It comes from the box with nearly zero vibration in the shot cycle and only a little recoil. Cocking is butter-smooth. The initial velocity of the several rifles I’ve tested over the years has varied from 875 to 915 f.p.s., but within a few thousand shots it was over 930 f.p.s. (with Premier lites) for all of them. My personal rifle, which is over 10 years old and has over 10,000 shots on the powerplant (with no tuning of any kind), now averages 963 f.p.s. with the Crosman Premier lite.
The stock is profiled for the sport of field target, which makes this rifle ideal for hunting and shooting offhand, but also works well in a bag rest. A flat spot on the forearm just forward of the trigger is ideal for the off hand. The rifle balances with a pronounced muzzle-heaviness that competitors feel makes the gun more stable. The pistol grip is very vertical and deeply scalloped for either right- or left-handed shooters, but be sure to get the model you need, for the stock is dedicated only to one side of the body. The left-hand stock also moves the pellet-loading port to the left. All other things are the same as they are on the gun with the right-hand stock.
The rifle has baffles built into a shrouded barrel. The shooter cannot detect any sound reduction, because the sound of the powerplant is conducted through the facial bones, but bystanders can tell the TX200 Mark III is a very quiet spring rifle.
The safety comes on automatically when the rifle’s cocked, and it’s located on the left rear of the receiver, where it favors a right-handed shooter.
Some shooters feel the TX200 is heavy. It certainly is heavier than you want to carry while hunting all day unless you add a sling. The weight does add to the stability of the rifle when it’s fired, and competitors find the weight to be a plus.
The TX200 Mark III has superior accuracy. I’ve shot 10-shot groups at 50 yards that were as small as 0.658 inches between centers, though one-inch groups are by far more common.
The finish of the wood and metal are flawless. This is a rifle you will be proud to pass on to your heirs.
Walther LGU Evaluation
The Walther LGU comes to this comparison as the contender. Its rival has been around since the late 1980s, while the LGU was launched in 2014. A cursory examination of the size, weight, layout of controls and form of the stock shows the designers were well aware of who their competition was. In fact it might seem that the LGU is just a copy of the TX200. That would be incorrect. There are several differences between the rifles
The LGU has a higher comb and cheekpiece on both sides of its butt, which elevates the eye high. High scope mounts can be used easily. The trigger is adjustable, but not to the same extent as the TX trigger. So, the trigger-pull is measured in pounds rather than ounces, once adjustments have been made. The trigger does break cleanly and crisply.
The LGU has a muzzlebrake with one large chamber that does quiet the report. But like all other spring rifles, the shooter’s face touches the stock where all the powerplant noise gets transmitted through the facial bones. Others will hear a quiet report, but to the shooter it will sound loud.
There’s a buzz when the rifle fires. It isn’t annoying, but the shooter will be aware that it’s there. The recoil is very moderate.
The shape of the stock differs from the TX stock in that finger grooves are on either side of the forearm. The tip of the forearm ends in a decorative schnable. The LGU stock is also ambidextrous, with a rollover cheekpiece. The automatic safety is located on the tang — equally convenient to either hand.
Both rifles have similar power; but when I tested a brand-new gun, the LGU was a bit slower than advertised. The TX starts out around 900 f.p.s. with Premier lites and keeps increasing in velocity as it’s shot. The Walther LGU starts just under 900 f.p.s. and will probably increase with use, though my testing was not sufficient to evaluate that. In my limited testing, there seemed to be about a 30-40 f.p.s. difference between the rifles in favor of the TX200 Mark III, though this may vanish as the LGU breaks in.
At 50 yards, the LGU put 10 pellets into less than one inch. While the groups it shot weren’t as small as the best group shot with the TX200 Mark III, I didn’t shoot it as many times at that distance, either. Since this is a brand-new rifle, it hasn’t had the testing exposure that the TX has had. Figure the accuracy to be the same for both rifles.
Fit of the stock and finish of the metal is equal to that of the TX200.
Summary
These two rifles appear very similar on paper. When you shoot them, though, you find the TX200 Mark III to be the more sophisticated and refined air rifle. But the Walther LGU has good bones and should be able to be tuned to equal its rival in all areas except the trigger. Although it has an adjustable trigger, it’s not as refined as the trigger on the TX.
Guess this report has made it final! The TX 200 Mark III! I’ve been BIG on Beeman most of my life! Diana is next to Beeman! NOW! I THANK YOU for your evaluation! I will Honor your TEST! This will be my intermediate spring rifle! Semper fi!
BB
First off this should turn into a good Friday blog.
I have both guns but in different calibers. So for me a side by side caliber specific comparison is not possible.
But I can say this both guns are very high in quality.
But I don’t know that I can calk the TX more refined. With the LGU being a brand new gun for Walther I believe that the LGU is already refined into a Mrklll series. Walther did their homework and got the LGU right without having to go back and redesign.
And both guns have their own way of letting me know I have my hold right before the shot is taken. I know when my earlobe is resting on the top of the comb of the stock on the LGU that I will be in position for a succesfue shot. The TX let’s my lower portion of my cheek bone rest on the comb of the stock or I guess some people call the cheek rest.
I will give the LGU the one up on the safety. If you take the safety off it can be put back on by just sliding the selector back. The TX has to be recocked by pulling the cocking lever all the way back just like when loading the TX. And that is my only gripe about the TX.
Both of my guns are very easy to shoot. Its almost hard to hold them wrong.
And as for as accuracy like BB said they are both accurate guns.
But I will give the TX the one up on cocking. Its definatly much easier to do a days shooting with the TX. Much easier to cock.
And I do have to say something about tunning. And it will be about the TX. It is a very,very simple tagun to take down. The design and almost zero preload on the spring attributes to that.
The LGU as far as teardown goes I don’t know. I have never looked into it because of how good the LGU shoots out of the box.
And the best I can say is they are both excellent, high quality good shooting spring guns. I worked through a lot of different air guns over quite a bit of years and the best advice I can give is stop wasting your money and buy either one of these two guns and you won’t go wrong with whatever one you choose. I just wish I would of got both of mine sooner. Great guns.
GF1,
I am not to sure about diddling with the transfer port on the 300S. The way that rifle is constructed, the barrel protrudes into the compression chamber. There may be almost no actual transfer port as it is. If you do any chamfering, you may end up creating dead volume, which you most certainly do not want to do. I would look at that very closely before going there.
As for which of these sproingers do I want, I would be very happy with the LGU I am quite certain, however if I can swing the bucks to get the TX200 MKIII in .22 with walnut stock, that is how it goes. I have also seriously considered the TX200 HC. It will be a little harder to cock than the MKIII, but a little lighter and more compact. The cocking effort might be equivalent to the LGU.
RR
The 300s is shooting nice with what I done to it now.
But if I was going to mess with the plastic stop on the front of the piston and make it thinner like you was saying. Basically to up the compression. Then I would probably chamfer or radius the piston side of the transfer port. And its pretty thick there. Probably about a 1/8″ thick. So I would only do about a .060″ chamfer or radius. Just enough to get rid of the sharp edge that the transfer port has now.
And if you get anyone of the models you mentioned I believe you will be happy with your choice.
GF1,
What kind of velocities are you getting from your .22 LGU?
RR
Out of the box it was shooting around 595 fps and that’s almost dead on what Walther claimed. They say 593 fps.
Now after being broke in with I’m sure over 1500 pellets through it I’m seeing around 615 fps. And its probably a little faster than that now. I haven’t chronyed it in about 2 or so weeks.
Oh and that was with 15.89 JSB’s.
GF1,
I stayed away from things like the ease of teardown because I haven’t torn into an LGU yet. I do agree that Walther did their homework and did pattern the rifle after the TX200 Mark III. The Mark II did have some buzz, so perhaps Walther will learn how to minimize that.
B.B.
BB
I’m very,very happy with both guns.
And I just had to say something about the teardown of the TX. Its probably one of its best hidden features. Its a dream to work on. I couldn’t believe how easy.
And the LGU could maybe. And I’m going to stress the word maybe use a tune. Not because of noise or vibration. My .22 caliber model is very good in that department. The only thing is it has a slight forward and backwards bump to the shot cycle. But for me it hasn’t bothered the shooting results. Like I said before its hard to shoot it wrong. Hold it how you want and it hits.
And so it don’t sound like I’m in favor of the LGU having the better shot cycle because it doesn’t. Out of the box the TX and LGU have comparable shot cycles.
A “duality” in the recoil is almost always a sign of an undersized transfer port, though (rarely) can be a very heavy or oversized pellet, it happens as the piston lands on the air buffer before striking the end of the compression tube.
The Diana 52 over here in the UK is restricted by means of a transfer port washer and has this effect very badly…the best mod you can do is to remove it, and shorten the stroke by 20mm allowing you to use a much lighter spring for the same 12 ft/lb
If it’s minor on your LGU try using a light pellet or weighting the piston a little.
Matching swept volume to TP size is really the holy grail in airgun tuning, …check the LGU doesn’t have some strange restriction in place, it’s certainly odd that it produces less energy in 22 than 177, and that double bump recoil smells awfully familiar to me.
Dom
Gun groups to good with the pellet I’m using to worry about the little bump it has.
.500” groups at 50 yards with the 15.89 JSB. When a gun is shooting that good its best to leave well enough alone in my book.
Darn you, Gunfun. Now I have to put the LGU on my list of “wants”! I guess if I sell a few of my other rifles I could swing this easily. The problem is I don’t want to sell anything I have. There is no cure for this hobby.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred
Ain’t that the truth about this hobby.
I got rid of my first Monsoon I had and wished that I never did. And I definatly wanted another one after trying similar semi-auto pellet guns. So I ended up selling two guns that I liked. My Weirauch hw50s and my RWS Diana 54 Air King.
But right now I’m like you. I have finally worked up to the place I want to be at with the air guns I have. There are a few more on my most wanted list. But I will have to do some saving to get them.
Nothing like shooting air guns.
🙂
Gunfun1,
Hope you see this on an old post. If not. I’ll repost on the current one…..
What did you think of the 54 Air King. I’m thinking about getting one in .22 caliber.
I would appriciate your insight. If you remember, I bought my HW50S after following your posts about it. I’m still very happy with it.
Randy
Randy
How’s it going. And yep I remember you getting the 50. They are nice little guns.
And the 54 air king I had was .177 cal. It was a very accurate gun. A little louder than normal for a spring gun but not bad. And its a heavy gun but I did carry mine in the woods a lot. But with its anti-recoil system and the heavier weight it makes for a good field target gun and it works nice on a bench or shooting stick. Its like shooting a pcp. The shooter feels nothing. Its got a plastic trigger some people don’t like but I had no problems with it and it adjusted out nice.
Phew I think I got it all. But yep I think you would be happy with it. I had mine for around 6 years and was like brand new when I sold it. It shot very well.
Yes–this is a great Friday blog! (Comparisons always spawn fightin’ words and we have the entire weekend to fight—errr, I mean discuss. ;))
Thanks for the additional info, Gunfun1. I’m very curious if the low spring preload tension of the LGV can also be found in the LGU. I’m completely comfortable taking-down my LGV using only a padded gun vice to hold it securely. I find there to be very little “spring drama” in the task. The method is even depicted in the Walther Tuning Trigger instructions–at least it was before the lawyers had them remove the instruction sheet perhaps, because I’ve heard the instructions are no longer included with the upgrade trigger. No matter; I do not recommend the Tuning Trigger unless you can’t live with a plastic trigger blade anyway. I can make a standard LGV/LGU trigger work as well or perhaps even better than the Tuning Trigger and the standard trigger is actually optimized for the shortest and lightest pull settings anyway. I did not realize any benefit from my Tuning Trigger at the settings I prefer (light, short, minimum over-travel). However, given what B.B. reports about the TX200, I think it would be difficult to get the LGV/LGU trigger weight down to low TX200 levels.
What’s up Cal.
So you say the LGV has very minimal preload on the spring? If so I do hope the LGU is the same.
Like I said I haven’t taken my LGU apart. It shoots nice. But I guess at some point in time I would possibly like to tune it. You know how that goes. Always a way to make something better.
I wonder if there is a tune kit available from Vortek for the LGU. And if not since it is a fairly new gun I do believe they offer a kit for the LGV and maybe it will work in the LGU.
I tuned my TX with a Vortek kit and some additional tricks and it is a very calm gun now. Yep even calmer then when it came out of the box. I can set it on the rest and it almost shoots itself. Ok,ok I’m exagerating. But it really is nice to shoot now. And it has even less cocking effort now compared to out of the box cocking pressure.
And I will have to say that I like both triggers. Although the TX does for sure have the better trigger. Both of my guns adjusted out nice. I like my triggers adjusted different from most people from what I have seen. I like a long first stage that takes up about 2/3rds of the travel then there is a noticeable stop at the second stage and then it only takes a slight amount of pressure and there is a crisp break. And I will have to say that the plastic trigger that the LGU has is nicer in cold weather then the metal trigger. If I’m out for a while in the cold my trigger finger will try to go numb from a metal trigger. It seems to take a little longer for my finger to get cold with the plastic trigger.
And how did the Shot Show go with your 3D printer? Hey maybe you can print some plastic replacement triggers for people with cold fingers.
🙂
GF1,
Cal and I had a nice talk and he showed me several things he has printed. The Diana seal is too hard and won’t work, but he says he might print one that could work. It was certainly identical in size and form.
B.B.
BB
The 3D printers are definatly some cool technology.
Just think new trigger guards could even be made. Even front sights that could be slipped over a barrel muzzle.
I could go on and on about air gun stuff that could be made. Heck maybe even a custom support to lay your gun in for a bi-pod or mono-pod. Even some pads to go n the legs of the shooting sticks.
Time will tell.
Oops–I forgot to mention that all of those ideas are quite viable for 3D printing, Gunfun1.
Slip-on sound moderators are probably very viable too, and 3D printing can produce a one-piece monolithic “can” with all baffles fixed and unremovable. You can print things that cannot be injection molded or machined! The walls of the can could be designed to blow apart under firearms pressures and a moderator could slip-onto barrels and various types of barrel shrouds or receiver “extensions” in a manner that would never work on a firearm.
This idea isn’t even one of my three inventions that I mentioned, but I’ve been thinking about submitting a sample or two to the BATF to seek a letter of approval for printed airgun sound moderators.
I’m still on the road but I plan to order some new fangled flexible urethane and other co-polymer 3D printing filaments when I return home (and finish a few home repairs and upgrades to get our old residence on the market too). In my spare time (haha), I’ll print a new Diana seal and I’m willing to wager that one of the new printing materials will work well.
Partly thanks to the SHOT show, I’ve added a third invention to my airgun product development list. Sorry–I’m not disclosing my ideas yet, but the current airgun Renaissance seems to be inspiring me, which is good because I sold my half of my firearms training business to my friend and business partner a few weeks ago and need to find new things to work-on.
Gunfun1, Please let us all know of any spring compression preload drama you encounter when you eventually takedown your LGU. When (if) opening the trigger housing, there are two things requiring a little care in the LGV and I suspect they will be the same in the LGU:
1. Two tiny flat washers are stacked on the action pins on each side of the clamshell halves and, due to sticky moly grease, they can stick to either side, go unnoticed, and become lost.
2. The trigger weight spring adjustment screw threads into both halves of the clamshell housing. If you leave it in place, it may or may not “find” its proper thread when re-assembling the clamshell halves. You can completely remove the adjuster screw beforehand and the spring will remain captive, however. Then replace it after the gun is re-assembled.
Neither of these two potential issues are covered in the Tuning Trigger instructions, which I could scan and post somewhere for you, if you are interested. Again, the instructions are for an LGV, but I suspect the trigger housing is very similar on both rifles.
Cal
I posted here. But I like the things you just brought up about persuing for the 3D printer.
I definatly want o know how all that goes. So please keep us updated.
And yes if you have more info on the LGV please post it. And especially if you run across something with the LGU tunning.
Sure thing, Gunfun1! I saw your comment, but may have posted my reply to it out of order.
I don’t remember whether or not I’ve posted this link about tuning the LGU in B.B.’s blog before (and you may have already read it):
http://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-yankee-tune-for-the-walther-lgu
and more about the LGV/LGU trigger (and LGV, in general) here:
http://www.shooting-the-breeze.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18782&page=5
I’ll scan my Tuning Trigger sheet when I get home in a couple of weeks.
-Cal
Cal
Thanks for the links I will sure read them.
And I will be watching for the trigger tune info.
Hi Gunfun1,
I have an interest in these rifles and see that you have both of them. Would like to discuss them with you but would rather not use BB’s blog to do so.
Seems that we have similar interests and technical backgrounds that could lead to some interesting discussions. If you want, you can contact me directly at HANKdotVANDERAAatGMAILdotCOM
Hope to hear from you.
Vana2
Tom, Edith:
I can’t find a definition of “schnable” in any of Google, Wikipedia, Wikidictionary or the Oxford English Dictionary (online). Do you mean the protuberance at the front of the forearm on the LGU?
Also, the image of the TX200 is labeled TX200 MkII. Did you mean that?
Fortunately for me, I already own a TX200 MkIII with the walnut stock. I’m glad I don’t have to wrestle with the question of which of these rifles to own.
Jim
Jim,
Schnable is a German word. When used to describe a stock it means that knob that balloons out at the end of the forearm.
B.B.
Schnabel
Hate to be a spelling nazi, but putting in Schnabel stock should get search results 🙂
Dom,
Thank you! That’s what I was missing!
B.B.
So, B.B., what camera did you purchase?
-Jan
Jan,
It’s a Sony RX100III. It takes finer-grained pictures than my Cannon G11 and is also MUCH better in low light.
Unfortunately, the user interface is not nearly as user-friendly and the G11 is superior for macros.
So now I have two little cameras that each do 85 percent of what I need.
B.B.
Wow. I was pretty sure you had been using the Canon (you just pulled a “Crossman” 😉 ) G cameras. They are fabulous. That Sony must really be something! Are you already using it for the blog photography?
-Jan
Jan,
I did indeed pull a Crossman! 🙂
When I saw that comment come through it looked wrong.
All the pix I took at SHOT were with the Sony. I used it because it is so much better in low light and I have print magazine articles that need high rez pix that are good.
B.B.
B.B. Love my Canon G10 PowerShot, the thinking man’s Leica format. I have the two books on how to use it. A Brick in weight. Solid
Pete
Somewhere in the clutter is my antique Canon G2… only 4MP, but it is fairly IR sensitive… With a filter adapter over the lens and a tripod, I /can/ use an IR pass filter and shoot grainy infra-red effects (considering we are talking about 30second exposures in sunlight!).
My supposed grab&go camera is an old Canon EOS 20D (8MP) with a 420EX flash (the “good camera” is a 50D [15MP — note the progression, I’d have to find a 30MP SLR to justify moving up] with both 430EX-II and 580EX-II flashes; the 580 can act as master with the 430 as a slave off to the side)
Everyone is using SmartPhones now for their Kodak moments and throwing away on eBay terrific Canon PowerShot cameras. I have maybe 5 or 6 now, a G5, a little purse size ladies cuties, others.
But to drift into IR is amazing ! What ! My brain is still trying figure out FB ( yes, i am old..)
Thanks for your posting !
Pete
Just checked . I have a Canon PowerShot G2, Not the G5. Duh. No USB cable hookup, but it does do IR ? How many hours in a day to learn all this stuff…IR is a fantastic medium for stunning imaging.
Thanks for the tip…Now where do i go to find out how without a $200 course ?
Pete
The G2 had a weak “hot mirror” (the filter on the sensor that is supposed to block/reflect infrared radiation). It isn’t as sensitive as a camera modified for IR (by removing the internal blocking filter completely).
You need the accessory attachment tube (“conversion lens adapter” LA-DC58). The base of the lens has a trim ring that comes off, and the accessory tube threads onto it. The other end flares out to take (as I recall) 58mm filters and, of course, the tele and wide converter lenses Canon sold for it.
I use a Cokin A-series holder with 58mm thread insert, I have Kodak Wratten gelatin filters in #87 and #89B. Cokin makes/made a gel-filter holder for A-series — you have to cut down the Wratten filter to size, snap the top and bottom of the holder over it, then slide it into the A-series holder.
Put the camera on a tripod, and expect very long exposures… f2.2@1/6 second in daylight is what I’m seeing for EXIF data (haven’t done this since 2002/3) and I don’t know the ISO setting; probably maxed at 400. May have to do manual focusing (infinity for landscapes is probably good — though the camera might get enough light to activate focus on IR details). If shooting in color mode, the images will have a distinct purple-violet tinge that will need to be taken out in PhotoShop (or equivalent). I believe one trick is to use channel controls to swap a pair — forget which but it may be green and red.
For other P&S, or SLRs with “live view” (none of mine), a test for IR sensitivity is to go into a dark room, activate the camera LCD view, and have someone aim a TV remote control at the lens, while pushing a button. The brightness of the remote emitter gives an indication of sensitivity.
My cellphone shows sensitive — but A) fitting a filter holder and B) exposure control/stability aren’t there.
The RX100 is a fantastic camera, probably the best low light thing you can fit in a pocket.
I wrestled myself but ended up with a Fuji X100S which is less conveniently sized but less menu led.
I was big into my DSLR’s but gradually realised that the best camera is always the one you have with you…and I would leave my big bag of bodies, flashes and lenses at home too often.
Dom,
That ws why I bit the bullet on this one. I needed a small camera that I could always have at trade shows and gun shows. My G11 is still wonderful, but for low light without a flash, the Sony is superior.
B.B.
B.B.,
Very nice article. I’ll be looking forward to the future comparisons. The LGU was the other rifle I was considering before purchasing the .22 TX. Both have very nice design lines, but that downward slope at the end of the forearm, the “schnable”?, really speaks to me for some reason.
On the loading port, if you might remember, another TX owner had a left stock with a right port. While you did address the L/L and R/R in your report, I was wondering if you ever put the L/R option question to rest. If it’s an option, some readers might want this.
On the cocking effort, I can say the TX’s 29# is about all I would care for. At 6’4” and 230# and in good/fair shape, I could see shooting the TX all day. I did get the cocking aid which matches the gun well, is easier on the hand and looks nice.
Interesting note that Gunfunn1 mentioned on resetting the TX safety,..I missed that in the owners manual. I’ll have to give the LGU the +1 on safety reset.
And finally, the trigger on the TX is scary light right out the box. While nothing to compare to, all I can say is that you better be on target before getting your finger anywhere near it. If you take up the 1st stage and are still focusing on sight, hold or anything else, it’s easy to squeeze one off.
No holes in walls, doorways, or anything else,…yet. 😉
Chris,
Here is the deal on the left hand TXs. They do have loading ports on the left side and beartrap releases on the right, as I said. BUT, dealers have also sold right-hand actions mounted in left-hand stocks! That’s why there is such confusion. Both kinds of left-hand TX200s exist.
B.B.
B.B. and Chris I have the TX200hc in left hand walnut stock with left hand action. While I love the left hand loading port I do find the anti-bear trap on the right to be odd ball because i’m a mixed bag, I shoot lefty but do many things righty like cocking and holding the under lever dispite the anti-bear trap I use caution with the under lever. Still it’s a minor thing and I wouldn’t want the right hand action in the left hand stock because that loading port is so generous in size and ease of loading. Also I agree on the trigger, it’s always good practice to keep your finger off the trigger especially with the light pull of the TX but I won’t touch my trigger because it’ phenomenal!!!
B.B.
I do have the TX200 with a right hand action in a left hand stock. However, I like it that way. I especially like it that way with guns that have a bolt or sidelever action. I have a couple of guns with the bolt on the left side and I did not request them that way. Nor do I like it.
G&G
G&G or B.B. or anyone,
I would be very interested in a left hand stock / right hand action TX200. Where can they be had new? I also wonder about the stock relief for the loading port. I assume that it just doesn’t matter much since it’s generous?
Any info appreciated,
Mark N
Mark N,
Good question. You might need to contact Air Arms directly to find a distributor that carries one.
As for the loading port,..yes it is very generous. I have big hands and there is plenty of room. As for the stock relief, or where the stock is cut out to provide additional room at the loading port, I would imagine that it would exist with any combo of configurations. I do suppose that if you were to drop a right hand action into a true left stock, that you would end up with the cut out on the left, which no longer would serve a purpose, and none on the right.
Chris, USA
You know I don’t know if that’s in the manual about resetting the TX safety.
I just tryed to see if it would reset that way by recocking the gun. You have to go the full stroke of the cocking arm to reset it. It resets at the end of the fulk cocking stroke. I’m use to being out in the woods shooting through out time and I like to be able to put the safety back on if I don’t take a shot for some reason or another.
Gunfunn1,
Reading from the manual, “The safety cannot be re-engaged without re-cocking the rifle, so do not release the safety catch before you need to”. I might have worded it differently, but none the less, it’s nice to know that can be done.
It also mentions that do NOT fire the rifle unless the cocking arm is fully closed, else serious damage will occur. So,…it goes without saying that your finger should be no where near the trigger during this “safety re-set” procedure,…because the safety is off during this.
I imagine that if your quarry would move off or hide during aiming, that this would need to be implemented.
Chris, USA
You got it. I’m very interested in keeping all my fingers and thumbs.
B.B.,
I like the comparison report. I was doing some review comparison research between these two models myself earlier this week. I am curious; how is the RWS Diana 45 tune project coming along?
Tabrown,
Interesting you should ask. The rifle’s owner, Johnny Hill, asked me the same thing yesterday. We are planning to take the rifle apart next week and see what all needs to be done. There will be a report on the disassembly.
B.B.
I want to weigh in, I haven’t asked about it since it’s obvious what you have been up to. Can’t wait!
BB, good article! Very informative and I like your honesty, as usual. I also like these two rifles, but I am a fan of spring piston rifles anyway. I think that people spend a lot of money buying springers that are very fast but difficult to shoot and then blame all springer for being inaccurate. They don’t know how to shoot them in the first place, and they didn’t choose wisely. If someone want to compare powerplants, try one of these before you talk about inaccurate springers.
Now, about the subject rifles, the TX lines are more pleasing to my eye. Not that the Walther is an ugly rifle, but the TX seems “smoother”.
Last, I know it’s boring when you compare two products and someone suggests a third one, but I’m gonna do it, and I will add two more products to this conversation… how to you think these two compare to the Beeman HW97 and the RWS 460? I mean, if a buyer is looking at under lever and is willing to spend around $600, I would look at the HW and RWS as well. What do you think?
Fred_BR,
I haven’t had any luck with HW 97s. I owned one for a while and didn’t like it for many reasons that I will not get into. Then I tested a second one, after being urged by readers because I surely didn’t give it a chance the first time. That one also bombed.
The Diana 460 is a more powerful rifle that really doesn’t belong with these other 3 rifles. It’s a real magnum. I like it, but I don’t love it.
B.B.
Really? That’s kind of a surprise, because I keep reading good stuff about the HW97 over the net, including a few reports from the UK, TX’s homeland. I could find Mac’s report on the HW97 (dating back from 2010), when you did report it next to a Industry Brand B3! In that test, the HW performed well, too.
I also figured the Diana 460 to be in a different class than the others I mentioned, but again I find a lot more info on the 460 than the 430, which would be closer to these rifles, at least in terms of velocity. Also, for that price level, the 460 would be more of a contender than the milder 430, at least to my eyes.
Keep going with the comparison reports. Being an Engineer, I like tables: easy to read and easy to find data. Good job!
FRED_BR
I have both rifles and I concur with BB.
I purchased the TX200 first as my first ‘high end’ air rifle. It was and is every bit the holy grail that I had read about.
Later, I read much hype about the HW97 from forums and reviews and from readers of this very blog whom I very much respect.
The HW97 is admittedly easier to load, and it is undeniably a high end rifle. But IMHO the TX200 trigger makes the rekord feel crude by comparison. The rekord can be made better, but you must take the action out of the stock, bend the tab so that the main screw can be adjusted, and then adjust another screw that is only accessible with the stock removed. The TX trigger was perfect for me out of the box, and even if it isn’t for you, it can be more easily adjusted without removing the stock.
My TX shoots dead calm with no modifications. My HW97 in stock form buzzed like a beehive. Blog member Twotalon sent me a Vortex kit for the 97, so now it shoots nearly as smooth as the TX. The TX has delrin bushings on each end of the piston. The 97 does not. Tuners will ‘button’ the piston for you, at a cost.
Tearing down and tuning a 97 is a nightmare in comparison to working on a TX. There is no comparison.
The TX is more powerful than a 97.
The beech stock of my TX makes the beech stock of my HW97 look like firewood.
The bluing on my TX is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen on any gun, bar none. It looks like black chrome. The bluing on the HW97 does not even come close. It is OK yes, but it is not even slightly memorable, much less something you can see your reflection in.
Fred
What SL says about the 97 being a pig to work on is true.
Accuracy is no problem, but working on it is a pain.
You can fully expect the need to do something about the vibration and noise. It’s really intolerable.
twotalon
Fred_BR
I asked B.B. about including the RWS 460 in the comparison a while back and he said it wouldn’t be fair since the 460 is a Magnum. I have owned mine for a bit and I now fully agree with him. The RWS 460 is hold sensitive because it is a magnum and that impacts accuracy in my hands at least. My best with 460 have been 1/2″ 10 shot groups. I also own an HW50S which is not hold sensitive and can shoot 3/8″ with that rifle at the same 25 yard distance. Can the 460 shoot better then 1/2″ in someone else’s hands, I don’t know?
David
Very nicely done, B.B. While my next gun is probably going to be a PCP, I briefly pondered some of the more accurate and powerful springers and this would have been a great help–as I am sure it will be to many readers.
I think you could save some space on your very helpful table and make it and that small text a bit bigger by listing the features column (Action, Cocking) only once and eliminating that third column. I’m fortunate that my eyesight is still good but there are many readers for which that’s no longer true. I think this would also help if you ever compare three guns.
I think accuracy would be one of the most important things you could add to that table (0.658″ at 50 yds), and I would include the available calibers.
I’ve read hundreds of your blogs now and I don’t think I’ve seen a side-by-side comparison, as you state, except for vintage guns (like the Webley Scorpion and a couple of its contemporaries a little while back). So I’ll be first in line to ask you for a new comparison blog, of popular PCPs: the Marauder (which is what I’m looking at), Condor SS, and that new PCP that impressed you recently (think it was the Hatsan AT44-10). Just what you need–something more to do!
HS,
This report is the first comparison report I have ever written. There will be more. I’m still figuring out how to format the data, so I will take your comments to heart.
B.B.
I’d enjoy that blog! And I too am looking at PCP to make shooting less of a challenge so I can get more in in a day.
Very interesting…
funny how some people believe the LGU is a copy of the TX200 while others consider the TX200 a copy of the HW77/97. Which one was the first of that kind anyway? Is that even possible to say?
I have discovered that, without knowing, I have lived very close to a very well-known field target range here in Dorsten, Germany. Maybe I should pay them a visit some time. I could shoot my FWB300 or the Diana 31P. My € 40 4×32 scope probably isn’t up to snuff, though 🙂
For serious competition in the “recoiling” category, the guns reviewed here are probably well worth considering. Most pepople around here seem to shoot the HW97 though, many of them tuned.
The HW77 was the first of the underlevers with a sliding compression tube (a Diana invention), the AA TX200 can really be seen as a response to what field target shooters were doing to their HW77’s as was their own HW97 to a lesser degree.
Well, B.B. I think it is time for a short pause and for all of us to step back and thank you very much for your wonderful blogs and writing style ! Such a joy to enjoy our first mugs of coffee and be greeted with such a person we all consider a friend. And thanks to Edith, also !
All of our best whises, Tom !
Pete
I think comparisons need to have the “major” contenders to be useful – not just 2 rifles.
In this case, the HW97 needs to be included. That is the TX200s biggest rival, and your comparison doesn’t allow users to figure out how the LGU compares.
Also, I think your comparison of the under levers needs 2 key factors added: ease of loading (I find the HW much much easier), and bear trap safety (I belie the the HW bear trap safety only blocks the trigger, whereas the TX safety catches the sliding compression chamber of the sear slips or breaks).
For break barrels I think pairwise would be OK. HW95 vs Diana 34.
For PCPs I think 3 way is needed: Marauder, AA200, and AF Talon.
B.B. I know someone mentioned it first but it is a good point that the hw77 could be in this dogfight and a triple header would be great. I know your not a fan of the hw97(k) but I you said previously that you liked the hw77 better. Do you not consider the hw77 tuned out of the box? Does it need a good tune out of the box? With so many shooters around the world using the 77 I think it would be a good test but I also understand that the LGU is taking on the TX in the market place now and the 77 had it’s day in the sun. I’m not saying you have to do it or it’s not fair to hw77 owners but it would be interesting to see the accuracy results of the three and if the old 77 still holds up to the test of time and increased manufacturing of the newer springers and the benchmark TX. Thanks Ricka.
Ricka,
The HW77 out of the box isn’t as nice as these 2 rifles. But it can be tuned to be just as nice as a TX.
B.B.
Definitely, I’m interested in how guns perform straight out of the box. Once you start modifying you’ve tilted the playing field–reasonable, across-the-board comparisons go out the window.
HS
Those facts have to be stated for sure for a out of the box gun.
And here’s that but word again. Look how many people out there tune their spring guns.
I do believe that’s human nature to make something better. And some people are happy with out of the box performance and some ain’t.
So when a product is reviewed,talked about or compared to all info is important to make a correct decision about that product. It doesn’t mean that everyone will want to mod the gun. But it will allow mor buyers to be interested in that product because they know more options are available.
You know just like buying a car. A base model is nice. But its also nice to know that a car us available with all those optional features. And its nice to know that there is aftermarket stuff available for that car.
Guess what happens with that car. More than one certain type of buyer is interested in that car then.
I think you know what I mean.
It’s a little wacky you prefer the hw77 to the 97 because, like the HW85 and 95 they are the same rifle in a slightly different configuration, one is the lower combed version that is shipped with open sights and the other a slightly higher comb you have to scope.
I bought a new HW77 a year ago (I prefer a lower comb) with the new style stock (schnabel)
It’s dead accurate but twangy out of the box, though it’s a weihrauch and will self tune itself over the next 10 tins of ammo 🙂
Long time lurker and reader of everything you write. I finally got my first springer BSA Polaris .177 after reading your reviews about the Polaris and CFR. The Polaris is everything you said it was and more. It took me a year to find one. I have been reading everything I can about the rifles in today’s blog, so thank you for posting this. My next rifle will be one of these. My stable includes Hammerli 850 (.177), Walther Lever Action, and Winchester M14 (had to use one for 3 years U.S.Army 66-69). Now that I know that I can shoot a springer, I cant wait to get my next one.
Thanks again for all that I have learned.
SSG Grampo,
Welcome to the blog.
You have certainly acquired some very nice airguns. That Walther Lever Action is perhaps the nicest of all the lookalike airguns made today. It’s high price keeps buyers at bay, but once you own one you know how accurate they can be.
Hope to hear more from you in the future.
B.B.
Tom,
I’m not surprised by your conclusion. I’ve had both a lefty and righty (explanation below) TX200 MKIII for awhile now, and from the very start both were shooting with a precise, very fast “smack” with no vibration, no buzz, no twang, and only a tiny recoil. The weight of them with a small scope is enough to make muzzle rise not a factor at all. On a bag they simply put pellet after pellet into the same hole in my 10 meter basement range. In my backyard, I’ve only been able to shoot them at 20 yards, and on calm days there isn’t much difference. The hole is a smidgeon larger and a bit more ragged. I would love to be able to take them to a sheltered outdoor range and shoot at 50 yards, an experience I’ve never had with any airgun.
I prefer to cock an underlever with my stronger, left arm, hold it with that same arm, and then insert the pellet with my right hand. Of all the systems I’ve tried, most of them suggested by the helpful fellow commenters here, I still feel this is the smoothest, most efficient loading procedure for me.
There is one design, uh, “issue” with the TX that has been discussed a lot: the loading port. My solution will be to swap my right-handed action into my left-handed stock, sell my left-handed action and right-handed stock, and then have a skilled woodworker add an appropriate cutout in the lefty stock for the right-favoring loading opening. A bit of a rigamarole, but when the process is done, I will have for my preferences, the sweetest shooting higher powered springer I could ever have.
Michael
Make that a “wind-sheltered outdoor range.”
Michael
Michael,
What you and others are saying is it isn’t as straightforward as just right and left-hand operation. There are many subtleties in-between.
B.B.
To Michael:
I have another suggestion. Keep the TX200 you want to keep (right handed action) and sell the other one with the original stock. Then you buy a left handed stock for a right handed action from Custom Stock Sheffield. They used to refuse to send their stocks abroad, but I`ve bought two stocks from them and they did send them to Norway without any problems.
If you do it that way, you won`t have to chop up any of the original stocks. And the other TX200 will probably be easier to sell without a mismatched stock.
Jet1991,
I’ve considered doing that, keeping the right-handed action, purchasing a custom stock, and selling the rest, but I do like the feel of the TX lefty stock. Also, I have read many a post on other forums where a right-handed guy or gal wants a TX with a right-handed stock, but a left-handed action. They must load an underlever the way I do, just reversing it as a righty. This is a busy time of year for me, so I’ll not really be able to anything for a few months. In the meantime I’ll check out the stockmaker you suggest and continue to consider it.
Thanks for the tip,
Michael
Hi BB, I just read in a copy of airguns world, dec. 2012. Is the LGV the top spring gun today? I live in Florida and I am so happy to be not restricted to 12FPE . In England airguns shooting is a huge sport. We are so lucky in this country to have this freedom! The right to bear arms. I hope everyone joins the NRA because they are coming after our freedom of this amendment! My Diana 460 is still sweet with over 20FPE’s. In England it would be classed as a firearm as you know.
ATB,
GAZ
Gaz,
The British publications claim a gun is the “top” gun if the importer/manufacturer supplies enough money to state that. Everything you read in the Brit airgun magazines should be taken with a dumptruck-sized load of salt 🙂
Edith
Edith,
Wow! I would have expected the opposite,..as I seem to get that air guns are held in higher regards over there,.. with history and shooting restrictions. Bought ratings?!?!?! Really?
While I would guess that they have their own “B.B.” over there, maybe not. If so, we in the U.S. should consider ourselves very lucky.
Mercifully no one takes the airgun press very seriously, and you can read between the lines, it’s a bit like communist press
Someone may review a rifle glowingly but they throw in lines like
“Capable of medium range pest control” (not very accurate)
“These triggers are known to wear in, in time” (breaks your finger)
“Fit and finish has come on leaps and bounds recently” (still awful)
It’s quite fun to decode the real review.
Dom,
Interesting and a bit humorous at the same time. While one would expect “over inflation” in advertising, one would hope that a review would be impartial. Thanks for that insight.
Dom,
Ben Taylor told me several years ago that the airgun magazines are referred to as “the funnies” over there. Is that still true?
B.B.
Yeah, it’s a bit of a laughing stock, with no real equal in any other branch of journalism.
Only annoying because if you’re not aware of their bought opinion you may end up with a Hatsan or BAM (imported by SMK…..the Millard bros of Milbro infamy) which could put novices off of airgunning.
It’s all I can do not to remonstrate when I bump into the journalists at Country Fairs and competitions.
Oddly they are never carrying a Remington Express in their gun bag.
Funny that.
Dom,
So, “do as I say…”?
When I write a report I have in mind a person new to airgunning who may stay with us or leave, based on his next experience. I imagine that he buys just one gun at a time and has to agonize over the purchase. Most of us have probably been in a similar situation at some time in our lives.
That’s why it is so difficult for me to make recommendations. I want there to be no chance for disappointment with what I recommend. Yes, as you have seen in these comments, even the guns I think are the best have proven otherwise sometimes.
B.B.
When I’m asked I usually recommend a HW30s for a younger shooter, I’m not sure if you’ve ever tested one, or even get them stateside, but think Diana 27 with a Rekord trigger.
It might be twice the price of a Chinese youth gun but I’m convinced 5 years with one will make a lifelong airgunner.
The British airgun press and the Millard bros seem to be on a mission to fatally damage future UK airgunning sometimes.
Dom,
I have tested several HW30S rifles, as well as the Beeman R7 that used to be the same gun in a different stock. It was wonderful!
B.B.
A few of us just picked up the Remington Express on clearance for about $78.00. At that price I think they can be a real bargain. They just need a little work.
They have the Chinese copy of the Rekord trigger. And there is a real nice guest blog about making it tick from a few years back.
/blog/2009/1/for-the-rekord-part-2/
Mark N
Yes, two members of my family bought one each, one was the full length and the other was a compact…..superficially good, but the barrel cross pin on one is misaligned to the point that you can’t get it on paper at 20 feet…..shoots six inches left at that range….so OK for open sights and that’s it….the other one’s trigger is much worse than the first for some reason. There is a couple of nice features, the guide is a snug fit and the piston is sleeved, but if the barrel is mounted cock eyed……..
Neither show particularly good grouping and what crowning has been acheived was undone on both with the plastic sight assembly being poorly fitted, to the point I had to shoot it out of the way on the Compact.
I’ve had both rifles down to component parts and own a pair of Weihrauch, and did not note any similarities between the trigger groups on these two very recent Chinese rifles.
$78?………I recommend buying two, and building the best one out of the pair, which, oddly I could do with these one’s here.
The parallex on the scopes are utterly different too, the first one was crystal clear from 10 to 30 yards while the second didn’t acheive clarity until beyond 20 no matter how much I fiddled with the objective lens components.
The Remington Express is not, BTW, based on the BAM B20 (HW95 made with a hacksaw), it’s loosely based on the B19, ie a slipshod Diana 34, though in this guise with some differences around the safety catch implementation, and a different trigger group to either.
Reminds me of an old adage “There is nothing in this world that can’t be made cheaper and worse”
Dom,
Wow you really seem to have an issue with these rifles LOL. Maybe you could have returned the one with the poorly mounted barrel?
So far I am quite happy with mine. Especially for the price. And like I said they do need some work.
I got lucky with my scope after adjusting the objective lens to focus at close ranges the reticle was out of whack. At first I did not think the reticle would focus but I
revisited it and it did. The mounts won’t work though no stop pin.
I think the trigger has all the same levers and sears as a Rekord. It’s just not housed in a cassette like the Rekord and B26 triggers. And not nearly as well finished. The overall weight adjustment is in the same place and the sear engagement adjustment is in the same place as a Rekord.
Here is a link to a fairly recent thread where the rifle was tuned up nice with pics.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=58164.0
Mark N
Nice massage session!
I guess I do, mainly because they were bought on my advice, by novices and I had hoped the Remington name would have meant a better QC
I kinda went against my own advice in a way.
Warranty returns weren’t an issue as I got them via the trade in a bit of a deal
With the option on 6 more.
The thing is, they aren’t that accurate even in good shape, and like a blunt knife, or a square wheeled bicycle…then no price is really cheap if it doesn’t acheive accuracy to me anyway.
Agreed accuracy has to be there. Have not tested mine yet.
Did you try choking the barrels?
Mark N
If price alone is a measure; then perhaps the $60.00 difference in cost is why the Walther is not as refined as the TX200. They may have been trying to come in at a lower price point so some sacrifices had to be made.
Different strokes different folks. I happen to love my hw97 a slouch in no way. I chose it because price was right and was tuned. It has never disappointed me. Would not snub a tx if 250 will buy a used one.
Mister Rob,
I know! So many people like the HW97 that I must somehow be wrong in how I feel. But that’s what happened to me.
No doubt about it — the 97 is a huge favorite.
B.B.
Hi Tom,
I just received a .22 cal Hatsan AT44-10 Long QE air rifle. I have a Hill hand pump mk3, with an Air Venturi female quick-disconnect, 1/8″ BSPP male threads adapter attached to it, that I use to fill my Marauder. I’d like to avoid removing the female quick-disconnect adapter from the Hill pump whenever I want to fill the Hatsan with air via the Hatsan filler nozzle. Do you think the Air Venturi Male quick-disconnect, 1/8″ BSPP female threads adapter (item number AV-00033…PY-A-3550) could be connected to the Hatsan filler nozzle, allowing me to always keep the female quick-disconnect adapter connected to the Hill hand pump, enabling me to switch between filling my Marauder and filling my Hatsan, without unscrewing anything?
Also, does the Hatsan filler nozzle just get pushed into the filler hole that’s right behind the pressure gauge? Won’t the air escape when I pump it up?
Thank you,
Doug,
Believe me, I understand what you want! I just wish airgun manufacturers would collectively adopt the Foster QD fittings.
I have no idea if what you asked with mesh properly or not, but technical person at Pyramyd AIR could certainly check it out for you. Give them a call.
888-262-4867
B.B.
I never shot a TX and I was lucky to get one from AOA for 509 a few months ago. without being broke in I shot 5 into a .3 hole at 50 yds and me and my friend were stunned. my PCP’s cant do that but close to it. my rifle did not like heavy pellets but the JSB 8.4 did the tiny group with CPHP coming in second. I was real lucky to get the gun then have it shoot like that. would have liked to get it in 22 but a little to slow for me being easier to load and glad I didn’t get it in 22
sorry the gun I got was the LGU cant believe I forgot to put in in my post above
Just ran 5 more through the Regal to zero the scope and it looks like I’m real close,2 outta 5 in the half inch bull but it’s still scattering the group to 1.5″ or so but I’ve only put about 200 rounds through so far. At least I can see through the scope now! I’ll be glad when winter’s finally over!
Reg,
I’m with you on the winter thing being over already. Bought a Crosman Vantage as a project gun when they were on sale for $74.99 over the last weekend. Wanted to get a baseline before I try tuning. It was so cold and windy I couldn’t feel the pellets in my fingers and dropped quite a few loading the gun. I do know the trigger out of the box is bad. Breaks at over five pounds with a long creepy stage two. Got to hit the hobby shop for another RC bearing to mod the trigger. Don’t remember the size off hand have to research that. Trigger is that same as the NP Trail so the mod should help.
David
I just discovered this within the last week. When I was discussing the trigger on my Regal with Buldawg we started speculating on whether it would work and I don’t see any reason that it wouldn’t.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCoQtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnIUqzLhz7ak&ei=MeTMVLL3M43nsAS1zoHYDQ&usg=AFQjCNHKSwb7MWkrKYF0M4sr9pGUrNWCEw&sig2=H9lDiZ6Y7V6FHLwb_QHlLQ&bvm=bv.85076809,d.cWc
Reb,
This went to spam. When you post long links like this they always go there, because spammers post lots of links.
B.B.
Thank you B.B! I expected that was the case. I was just trying to help David out.
I don’t know of anything I can do to not go to spam other than not posting links at all, but I wish I could fix it. Any clues?
Reb
Reb,
The only way around this problem is to not post the link. Maybe just describe how he should search for it?
B.B.
I’ll try that more often then.but so much other stuff comes up that it could cause someone to get the wrong article. I posted it the other day and considered digging it up to post a link to that posting.
Thanks B.B!
Reb,
I saw that video researching the bearing size. Since I already had the 5mmx9mm RC bearing installed on the trigger of the NP Trail so I just swapped out the triggers for now. Works nicely in the Vantage should also work in your Regal. I’m going to pick up the longer screw and another 5mmx9mm bearing from the hobby shop later this week and give both mods a try in the Vantage I’ll let you know how it works in my gun. I still may order a GTR-III trigger for the Vantage even though the cheap mod seems to work OK. Keep us posted on the Regal tuning what works in your Regal should be worth a try in the NP Trail since they are basically the same gun.
David
I think Kenny recommends 3 different possibilities in his first video but Buldawg has that stuff memorized so I defer to him.
Reb
Reb
The longer screw does work good and gives you a shorter trigger pull than stock but is not as smooth as the bearing trigger mod but one thing you can do if you choose to use the longer screw instead of the bearing is to round the end of the screw that rides on the sear and polish it so it is a nice round end with a smooth surface and it should be close to being as smooth as the bearing just put some moly grease on the contact surface of the sear lever and the screw end and it will take most of the gritty feeling out and be as close to the bearing as possible and also allow for adjustment which the bearing does not.
BD
I’ve been keeping an eye out for a loose one or one to repurpose. I’ve still got about 6 more from my 1008 teardown in my old range box. the same dual thread self locking type like I did the Pilkington mod on my 953 with.
Reb
The screw you need is the 3mm diameter by 10mm long as the dual thread screw will not work as good in the plastic block and the OE screw threads into the plastic block very tight so it will not loosen from where you set it at . I think it will be harder to round and polish the end of the dual thread screw to make it slide on the sear as smooth as a plan thread screw would but if that’s what you have and it will thread into that plastic block without cracking it then use it but you need to make sure it will not crack the block or you will not be able to use either screw and have to go the bearing route,
BD
Pa.oldman
That bearing you need is 2.5mm by 5mmby 8mm for the trigger and all my Crosman/Benjamin have them in the trigger and to me are much better than a GRTIII trigger ever can be.
BD
Buldawg,
Did you see his new video on how to fix it without removing the stock?
Reb
Yep and I left you a reply on how to make it even better if you choose to go with the screw instead of the bearing
BD.
I always wonder why the Diana 48/52 isn’t spoken of in the same breath as these underlevers, is it because it’s been around a while, maybe a bit unfashionable.
If so, it’s a shame because it manages the almost miraculous trick of being lighter to cock than either of these, every bit as accurate and manages, somehow, to be darn near twice as powerful as the Walther.
Aaah, the fickles of fashion, if AA managed to bring out a TX200 that was lighter to cock and 21ft/lb without losing accuracy it would be vaunted from the rooftops, and yet we’ve had just that for 30 years.
If I ever get another springer I’d like to have one of those sweet sidelevers. My first experiencewith an adult airgun was with one of them and put 5 shots in 3/4″ @25 yds. This happened at a fair somewhere in Pennsylvania in an army recruitment range. That thing was sweet! But heavy
Braved the weather for an outside shooting session with the Regal after dialing in the scope this morning. I think it’s finally settling down a bit. It looked like 5 in 3/8″ @ 10m But I’m not 100% sure because the target I was shooting at was on the bottom of the page and they strung vertically to the very bottom But I know the 1st 3 were a nice cloverleaf. Ida chronied it today but it’s too overcast here.
It was nice to finally use my bench & pellet trap again instead of standing in the window!
Reb
Yea, the 48 really speaks to me. I can’t explain it- but the first time I saw one, I put it in a “I need one of these oneday” catolog in my mind.
It just puzzles me as to why it isn’t revered outside of those who own one, I think it’s probably because it’s a bit of an ugly duckling.
The fact that it’s 21 fpe yet is every bit as accurate as a TX and somehow manages a lighter cocking stroke should elevate it to superstar status.
It was the first rifle with a sliding compression tube too, something people tend to think Weihrauch pioneered.
I think people get turned off by an assymetrical gun. The germans made an assymetrical observation plane and I think it was a cool idea.
I like a womans face to be symetrical- but care less about it for other stuff.
I saw a show on TV where they had a mirror that formed to the face to present a symetrical image of either side……and people looked very odd indeed, so not so sure about the last point, but yes, the Diana wears it’s mode of propulsion quite obviously……and I think unabashedly.
Great air rifle, and I mean that from a man who has owned almost nothing but British and German spring guns (I have two Weihrauch, three Diana’s, two BSA’s an Air Arms and……..a Crosman 2250), my 1988 T01 hits exactly where you shoot it, and hits it nice and hard, whether from a bench, crawling in a ditch or leaning on a tree.
But my next airgun will probably be a gas spring gun with a silencer that can be broken down smaller easily.
Sam, I could see crosman building something like what you’re talking about with enough requests for it. but I believe there are some older guns with coil spring like you’re talking about.
Sam
I was just recently lucky enough to be able to trade straight up for a 88 model daina 48 for a Marlin 22LR rifle and so far are very happy with the 48 as it is very powerful with a fairly tame shot cycle and the previous owner said it was shot only a few times and it shoots like it is not completely broken in yet.
I put a 3x9x40 AO scope on it and it was shooting very good groups at 35 yards but as I adjusted the scope to get it to hit my POA it started throw pellets out every where. So I checked my optical center of the scope and found the horizontal reticle very high in the scope so it was most likely floating the erector tube when it quit grouping well. So I put a better scope on it and will shoot it to see how much barrel droop it has in order to get the right mount to correct for the droop to keep my scope adjustment to as close to center as possible to prevent the floating of the erector tube in the scope.
I am planning on using it as a FT gun so once I get the sighting sorted put it will get a vortek kit and a tune to remove all the recoil I can from it to produce a nice FT gun. I have already done the trigger mod to allow for more adjustment of the first stage screw in the T01 trigger and got it to a 1/8 inch first stage with a 1 pound second release.
BD
Question,…The loading port on the above TX has 3 little “grooves” cut into the silver part. Mine does not, nor does the one on the cover of the P.A. catalog. What is/was the purpose of these? And if they do not exist in current models, why not?
Chris, USA
Yours don’t have any of those grooves!?
My Pyramyd AIR catalog that has the TX on the front cover does show the 3 grooves. The catalog I have is volume 6 and its located in the upper right corner of the front cover.
And those act like the bear trap when your cocking the gun if you happen to stop in a position before the gun is all the way cocked.
Gunfunn1,
My mistake in a couple of ways. It was a long, hard week and I was tired.
First, the P.A. catalog cover TX does have grooves. I was looking at it from accross the table, without picking it up.
Second, my TX is left with left action/loading port. The bear trap safety is on the right.
So,..that side of the loading port, with the notches, is hidden under the top of the action that covers the cylinder/loading port.
While not 100% sure, I believe that the silver part is the actual cylinder that the piston rides within. Is it not?
I figured all that out,.. 5 min. after waking up and on my first sip of coffee. The second I read your comment, it hit me. I should have known better. 🙁
Chris, USA
I know how that goes. Work, wife and two teenage daughters tend to keep me buisy.
And I forgot yours has that left hand action. So yep it is covered ain’t it.
You should post some pictures of your gun. I would like to see it.
And yes that is the compression cylinder for your piston.
And I’m getting ready to go out and try to make a day of shooting. Well before the wife and kids find something for me to do.
Gunfunn1,
Hope you have/had a good shooting day. As for a picture, I don’t have a camera and probably could not figure out how to post it anyways. I never learned or had anyone show me. I do not have a printer either. Hard to believe, right?
As I said somewhere before, mine is pretty much all straight grain. The picture on the P.A. catalog is exactly it, with the same variations in the walnut.
Been checking out Chairgun. I’m about halfways through the “help” section that explains what all the functions are for. Some I don’t understand. I have plugged in some stuff and changed things. I like it. I will probably have some questions later, but I want to learn what I can before I do.
Big, for us, snow headed this way, 6~10″ this area.
Chris, USA
Yep still out shooting. Took a break at lunch. Then shot for a while till I had to go help the wife unload the groceries from the truck. But back at it again.
They was saying here in Illinois we was suppose to get 2 to 4 inches but I think they changed the forecast to rain. I live about 20 or so miles east of St. Louis Mo.
And I don’t know if I can answer all your Chairgun questions. There’s a lot to learn on there. But it is fun learning it that’s for sure.
And got to go. I’m trying to kill one of those lousy ferral cans that I see setting on top of a old fallen down tree up in the woods. The dang thing would just so happen to be out at 80 yards. But I think I can get him. 🙂
GF1 and Chris
They are projecting as much as 12″ snow here.
The snow blower is gassed up and ready. Have extra oil if needed. I could use feelthy crankcase oil if necessary, but decided on a quart of new stuff in case.
Bagged a starling out back this morning. Might get a lot more once the snow buries all the food on the ground.
Tossed the starling out in the front yard, and my little buddy swooped in and got it in just a few minutes. Still warm !
twotalon
TT
Good glad your keep’n your little buddy happy.
The starlings haven’t been coming in the big flocks over the last week. But today there was about 20 of them that thought they would make theirselfs at home. Just so happened to have the TX in my hand. One of them didn’t have a very good day. And the others flew off in the trees about a hundred or so yards away. They haven’t came back yet.
And Yea you know how that weather forcasting goes. Back in the early 80’s it was 60 degrees during the day with a forecast of rain in the evening. It was thundering and lightning out when me an my buddies was playing cards. Come about 10:00 pm that night we look outside and there was about 6 inches. By time it was said and done we got like 3 feet of snow.
I wonder if weather people get fired when the for cast is wrong. Maybe I should of been a weatherman.
🙂
Gunfunn1,
So,….I’m dying to know,…whats’s the hold over on a “ferral tin can” at 80yds. with a 2.5~10 Hawke set at 6 mag. anyways?
Word has it, there are “herds” of “ferral tin cans” due to show up in Ohio woods this summer. Can’t wait!
Chris, USA
Which gun? Had 4 of them out yesterday.
The TX and LGU wanted about 2 mildots and the FX Monsoon wanted almost 1 and 1/2 mildots. The 300s was getting 4 mildots and I only hit a couple times with it. The LGU and TX I averaged 1 shot missed out of every 5 shots taken. the FX Monsoon hit every time.
It was pretty calm for the most part but I would get about a 4 mph wind here and there. it was pretty fun though.
And I just got a new laptop and it doesn’t want to accept the Chairgun program. I got windows 8 and Java so I got to figure out whats going on there. I miss my Chairgun.
Gunfunn1,
Wow, I could hope to ever be half as good as that. 1 miss for 5 of the TX is awesome. I imagine that my .22 will drop off a bit quicker and require more hold over.
Good luck on getting the Chairgun up and running on the new laptop. The more advanced apps. say I need 2 chronys, 1 very sensitive microphone, an oscilloscope and some more stuff. That, along with the 100yd. lane/room/hall addition I’m planning to build this spring. Motorized target reset, etc.
I tell ya, this whole air gin thing might be getting just a bit expensive.
Second thought, better go for 3 or 4 chronys. I’m pretty sure the one down range might get shot up pretty quick. 😉
Chris, USA
And did you ever think that air gunning had so much involved.
And I think I’m going to try to down load the Chairgun program on my phone. That’s what I have with me all the time anyway.
And you know all that equipment that your talking about may just be overkill.
You still have to go out and shoot and find the best pellet for your gun.
And you still need to document your true hold over or under for that particular gun and pellet.
Shooting the gun is the real world results.
I think the tx200 is pretty. Sleek lines, no extra embelishments, clean.
Hi to all, the Snowmaggedon was mostly a bust for SW CT. My shooting buddy will be coming back from a month in sunny Fla. this week so I’ll be able to do more shooting with my TX. We’re able to get to almost 50 feet in his basement, I know it’s not a lot but my other option for indoor shooting is about 20 feet or so in very cramped quarters. He’s also got my chorine so we can test it just for the heck of it.
Kevin in CT,
Glad to hear you got a place to reach out to 50′. I’ll be looking forwards to your chrony results as we both have .22’s. From what I’ve read, chronys can be finicky little devils. Your buddy will hopefully have figured what works and what makes them act up. I’m considering one myself and will check out a local shop today, but as it turns out, my 41′ in house “lane” has 4′ flouescents and compact CFL’s, both I believe are no-no’s.
Chris,
You are correct about the flourescents being a no-no. They flicker too much. LED’s and incandesgents work fine as well as natural sunlight. That’s probably the biggest problem people have especially since incandescents are going the way of the dinosaurs.
If you use LED light bulbs get the dimmable ones. I have the non dimmable ones, and the do flicker at a rate the human eye cannot detect well. I know this because my chrony freaked out, and then I used a
casio compact camera which can take movies at 1000 frames per second in a low quality and was able to see that the LED lamps I have do blink.
David,
Thanks for that insight. I did not know that or have ever read that. Clever trick you to find out.
I do not understand why dimming would help. I see LED’s offered as add ons. They appear to be in a strip and mounted directly over the sensors.
Then there is Halogens which got the light, but really put off the heat. And B.B. mentioned indirect lighting, pointed at the ceiling. So apparently, light does not have to be directly over/on top of the sensors, as in the kits.
Dimmable units might have better power supply filtering/conversion. Though it may also depend on the type of dimmer.
LEDs, individually, operate near 2 VDC, and use a resister to control how much current is allowed through based upon the source voltage. Presume the voltage conversion is taking 120VAC down to 5VDC and then has a resister to suck up the remaining 3V difference and control current. Without a good filter capacitor, the AC/DC conversion is really going to produce a lumpy looking DC.
If AC is:
(
)
(
)
(
a halfwave rectifier will produce
(
|
(
|
(
while a full wave rectifier gives
(
(
(
(
(
Then there are dimmers… The less common (these days) were just big rheostats (variable resistors). These reduced the voltage (generating heat in the dimmer) but kept a smooth sine wave.
The more common thyristor type uses a low current control that actually turns the power on/off during each… When the instantaneous voltage exceeds the desired setting, the dimmer turns off, and only turns on again when the AC voltage point is again below the setting. These tend to produce a lot of radio hash as the on/off cut results in something close to a square wave (lots of harmonics from the 60cycle AC).
As for what the chronograph sensors need — basically a smooth expanse of solid illumination. Something that shows a change in light level when a pellet or other projectile passes over the sensor.
And they apparently don’t even require it to be white — I have the LED illuminators for my Beta Master model, and those are red LED. {Biggest problem is that they extend an inch or so down into the shooting triangle, and if one is sighting scoped gun to ensure hitting a small bullet trap [the AF Condor, with the high distance] it becomes very easy to drop a bit low and plant one on the chronograph… A non-Master model would have been in for replacement of the control box — as it is I have a dent on the sheet metal just before the first sensor}
True story concerning the reverse oscillator/? ( forgotten term) not producing very clean DC
Too much livin’ since those days!
Baron Walfraed,
Who could ask for more than that! Very well explained. I made some notes and will look to find the older rehostats should I go the LED homemade route.
As for shooting the chrony, I could see that being easy with a scope. I figure I will just point and shoot about a foot or two back. After all, I would only be measuring speed at that point and not really concerned with hitting a target.
If you intend to build your own illuminator, build your own filtered power supply and put a potentiometer on the low voltage side, not on the input AC.
120VAC -> 10:1 transformer -> 12VAC -> bridge rectifier -> 12VDC input filter cap -> 5V regulator -> 5VDC output filter cap [big one, maybe] -> potentiometer -> LED/current-limiting resistor bank (a parallel ladder of LED/resistor all with a common input and output)*
* you want a resistor for each LED if you need to precisely match the brightness of each LED. If you can live with slightly mismatched brightness, you might be able to use an 18V transformer and 12V regulator, and wire, say 6-8 LEDs in series (check the voltage drop to determine how many will fit in 12V) and one resistor to ensure the string doesn’t go too bright…
Forgot to mention — I had to sight through the chronograph… I was sitting in my apartment doorway, with a pellet trap in front of the closet door 15 feet away… (actually, for the Condor, it was a .22 rimfire bullet trap — which is even smaller than my pellet trap!)
Scary
Chris and Reb,
probably the cheapest workaround shooting with a chrony indoors is tio use a halogen powered worklight with a 300 or 250 watt bulb. This will provide enough light for the chrony’s electric eyes and will overwhelm the flickering florescents. Works fine in my 28′ shooting range in my basement. I believe a lot of folks on this blog use this workaround.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred,
I shine a 500 watt halogen light from my Tota light camera lighting system on the ceiling. In 15 years of use this way I have only burned out one bulb and that was in a light that got knocked over while still hot.
B.B.
I’ve gotta double I used to illuminate my trap when it was nice enough outside for after the sun went down but it’d be hot inside and the base takes up about a square yard. I only take my chrony outside when it’s sunny and no risk of rain & every time I’ve had problems the sun was so low it was casting shadows on it
Hiya Chris, first off I can’t believe I spelled chrony like I did! Oh well, my buddy is one of the very ingenious types, he fabricated mountings and has positioned incandescent bulbs over the “ears” of the crony kind of like the accessory that is sold by the manufacturer. So far it’s worked out great.
Does anybody know why the Walther LGU cocking effort is that high? The TX and the LGU are both underlever and shoot about the velocity. The LGU is a new gun, so this means Walther DID NOT do their homework?
Joe
For a first design and not a third design and the way the LGU shoots.
Yes they did do their home work.
Gunfun1,
I don’t understand what you said. The fact that the LGU requires more cocking effort than the TX200 means Walther didn’t do their homework. The LGU is a new gun and the TX200 is out a long time.
Joe
Maybe I’m looking at it the wrong way I guess.
What I was getting at is there was 3 versions of the TX that has been made through out time.
So the way I look at is the LGU has two more revisions that can be done to it to make it better. Maybe if they revise the LGU only one more time which would make it a LGU Mrk ll and they make the cocking effort the same as the TX the LGU Mrk ll would be ahead of the TX. Then maybe they will revise it some more and make a LGU Mrklll that will be even better than a TX Mrklll.
See what I mean. The LGU still has two more trys to equal or be better than the TX 200 Mrklll. Maybe this new LGU should really be compared to the TX200 Mrkl to see which is better.
That way we would be comparing first design to first design.
Now we need to see the LGV up against the HW98/R11 for the break barrel honours.
Hi Tom,
I own a .177 Marauder and a .177 TX200 and do a lot of shooting at targets (placed at around 25, 35, 45 and 55 yards) in my backyard woods. I’m thinking about getting either a Airforce Condor SS or a Talon SS. I really wanted the Condor SS .22 for its power, accuracy and size, but from what I’ve read, the noise level has improved but it’s still pretty loud. Pyramyd AIR says its a 4-medium-high. I believe that would too loud for backyard target shooting. Some reviewers say it’s quiet, but a lot say it’s pretty loud.
Assuming I would keep the Condor SS and/or the Talon SS at max or near max power:
Is the Condor SS .22 really loud?
Is the Condor SS .22 a lot louder than the Marauder .177 and/or the TX200 .177?
Is the Condor SS .22 louder than the Talon SS .22 and Talon SS .177?
Is the Talon SS .22 louder than the Talon SS .177?
Are the Talon SS .177 and .22 louder than the Marauder .177 and/or the TX200 .177?
Sorry about all the questions. I do appreciate all of your help over the years. Thanks to you I own some really great air guns!
Thank you,
Doug
Doug,
I don’t know if you have commented before, so welcome to the blog.
The Condor is .22 long rifle loud.
The CondorSS is louder than the TalonSS. Yes, I would call it really loud.
The TalonSS is either caliber is louder than a Marauder .177 or .22 and about equal to a Marauder .25.
A Marauder .177 is quieter than a TX200 Mark III.
The solution I like is to get the SS. Then when you can afford it, buy a 24-inch optional barrel. And get a bloop tube silencer (frame extender) for the SS. The resulting rifle will:
1. Be 2/3 as powerful as a Condor and much more powerful than a Marauder.
2. Be quieter than a standard TalonSS.
3. Use air like an SS, which means 40 powerful shots per fill.
B.B.
Hi BB,
I really like your suggestion about eventually buying the 24-inch optional barrel with a silencer. When you said “get the SS”, I assume you mean the standard Talon SS?
What about Talon SS .177 vs Talon SS .22?
Are the noise levels the same?
Is either one better than the other?
I’m not a hunter. I only shoot at metal and paper targets.
Is one more reliable than the other?
I know it’s pellet speed and flat trajectory (for .177) vs pellet energy and power (for .22).
Is one more accurate out to 50 yards than the other?
Thank you,
Doug
Doug,
Yes, I meant the Talon SS.
The .177 SS is slightly quieter than the .22 SS.
The .22 delivers more power on the same air, with equal accuracy, so I think it is better.
Both calibers are equally reliable. Remember, a .22 becomes a .177 with just a barrel change.
I haven’t really tested a .177 SS enough to answer the 50-yard question. But I will say this — .177 pellets are a lot less expensive, so factor that into what you are about to buy.
B.B.
Hi BB,
Do you think that Airforce will ever make the Talon SS a repeater?
Is the Talon SS good right out of the box?
Doug
Doug,
No, I don’t think the TalonSS will ever be a repeater. Yes it is good right out of the box.
In fact, never take your gun apart — aside from swapping barrels. The only problems people have with AirForce guns come from trying to modify them. They work as they are made and should be left alone.
I used to build AirForce guns when I worked at the plant, and in 14 years I have not taken my TalonSS apart.
B.B.
A repeater with magazine would pretty much require a new frame and firing mechanism… It would no longer be a “Talon” (or a Condor) but something totally new.
Consider that the striker spring of a Talon/Condor is wrapped around the breech/barrel, and works by hitting the massive “bolt” which surrounds the breech and closes against the valve on the tank. It strikes “backwards”.
Most common pellet repeater magazines/clips are disks that fit between the air port (the valve, in AirForce) and the barrel. This means a magazine would block the striker in AirForce designs.
That’s where Air Force lost me, no repeater.
I wouldn’t mind seeing a roundball repeater with a forcefed tub mag. There’s a project for someone to capitalize on!
I was looking at the P-rod pretty hard today after having such a difficult time accessing the Crosman custom shop but no Co2 killed that one.
B.B.,
Would you have any additional comments on either of these fine air guns if one were comparison shopping for a .22 rather than a .177?
David H
B.B.
I you wanted the gun to hunt with, only occasionally plink, and only wanted a .22- how do these compare to the RWS 48/52?
Thank you for your time, we do appreciate it.
Sam,
The Diana 48 is a fine air rifle. It’s just not as refined as either of these.
B.B.
B.B.,
Also, I just saw that Air Venturi has the new model G6 hand pump that goes up to 4500 psi and is user rebuildable up to 5 times under warranty. This may be something that your readers may want to know more about especially since it sells for $199.99 at PA. With regards,
David H
4500 psi is a rather large claim for a hand pump, I gave it a look /product/air-venturi-g6-hand-pump-4500-psi?a=5320 and the air gauge red lines at 2900 psi.
I think if there is a red mark on a gauge you do not go above it, that could be the reason for being user rebuild option.
BB has said that going to 2000 psi is easy with a hand pump, but the trip from 2500 to 3000 is quite a chore. Unless Air Venturi has come up with a better pump I really do not think it would be possible for the average joe to pump to 4500 psi.
The red line at 200 bar just is not right, with the claim of 4500 psi
Mike in Atl,
Everything you just brought up is exactly the reason I was referring it to B.B. for a possible review.
It is possible to make the pump easier to push down at higher pressures if it has 4 stages similar to the FX 4 stage pump. That pump though tops out at 250 bar(3626 psi). I did look through the manual as shown on PA’s webpage for the G6 pump and it did not specify the number of stages, though I would speculate it has 3 as most hand pumps do.
David H
David H.,
I probably do need to look at hand pumps in general. It’s been a long time since I wrote about them.
B.B.
On an AH64, the apu (little turbine engine that starts the systems, to start the big turbines) is started by 3,000 psi of hydraulic pressure- but liquid doesn’t compress so I bet some of you know what is used as a spring to store energy- air is used.
When the apu doesn’t lite ALL the pressure dumps and you have to pump by hand. Towards the end it gets pretty annoyoing as your triceps start to burn.
Did I miss something up ^there?
Reb,
Just saying that if I ever get a pcp, not to kid myself into thinking I’ll want to use a hand pump.
I gotta 2 stage bicycle pump that’s also measured in BAR and 60 psi/ 4BAR was a challenge for me in my current condition
Really Sam, a 50 million or so chopper relying on a hand pump?
They could have given you at least a buddy bottle or something. LOL
Yeah… Even the plot of “The Flight of the Phoenix” relied on compressed air bottles to start its engine.
I may be wrong but as I remember that movie, and a good movie it was, they used a sort of blank shotgun shell to turn the engine.
Pheonix? “Flight of the Pheonix” Maybe.I think they used rescue flares to bust it off. “Everybody hang on anywhere you can find a space.I think the chief engineer was a Nazi?
Strangely I’ve never watched the movie…
About 35-40 years ago I read the original novel.
Only when the apu doesn’t start and if you’re in the field without a ground power unit. You can take turns with your battle buddy.
I think in aviation most big stuff has hydro pressure, air pressure, and electricity. Little stuff (like md500’s) just have an electric starter like a car.
BB,
The trigger pull is still too hard on my 2nd gen.Marauder.I have backed the pull weight screw out to where it feels loose enough to fall out.What would happen if I took the spring out and just put the screw back in to plug the hole?The instructions say that this adjustment does not effect sear engagement.The first stage adjustment screw is the one that can effect safety lever operation.I do think the trigger is always going to be heavier than the gen. 1guns.What do you think?
Tin Can Man
How much does the 2nd gen differ from the first?
A heavy trigger second stage that doesn’t “move” may not be that noticeable… But a heavy trigger with a 1/8″ (or more) travel is going to be a problem. In the former, the pressure builds on the finger pad, then with a minimal “click” the sear releases, should not be much gun motion (though overtravel slop is also a factor).
This does mean a minimal safe second stage sear engagement, and using the first stage to move the sear from full engagement to the “edge” for the second stage.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Since I had to get into the gun “safe” (cheap Stack-On toolbox steel with piano wire hinge and just stamped steel “bolts” at three points) today, I checked the pressure of a few items… My Marauder had leaked down to about 1000PSI (by its gauge) — been two years since I last had a chance to fire it.
I need to redo my pressure curve burn down some day. My last one was done using the built-in gauge and showed best performance (factory settings) from 2700-2200 PSI. But today, topping the tank, the built-in showed the red side of 3000PSI when my AirForce pump read 2400PSI…
Now — two gauges doesn’t give one a baseline (even though the larger, finer graduated, longer sweep of the AF pump implies more precision, at least)… But I also topped up the Silhouette pistol and when it showed the red side of 3000PSI, the pump showed 3100PSI…
Two gauges at ~3100 with the same air would imply the Marauder gauge is reading 600PSI high.
-=-=-=-=-
And, in a fit of insanity… My next purchase is a firearm… I’m to be called when it arrives from Cabela’s distribution center… Marlin lever action in .44 RemMag. The insanity part is that I have never actually hunted anything (I don’t have qualms about the kill — it’s the gutting/cleaning that will get me; my gag reflex has engaged while trimming pre-cut raw chicken breasts) — but MI is running a three year experiment allowing rifles using straight walled pistol ammo to be used in the Southern Zone for deer.
Deer hunting with a Tommy gun? I know that’s not your choice and I like your Rem Mag decision. I’m just wondering how some people may push the boundaries through interpretation of your new law. and the possible affects on the experiment.
What’s the experiment intended to reveal?
No, the Thompson is originally .45ACP, and the state has a minimum/maximum case length limit for pistol rounds eligible… Most semi-auto pistol rounds are too short — under an inch.
The .38-40 is disqualified — it’s a bottle-neck case, not straight. .44 Special is at the bottom end for case length… Strange case there — a round developed in the black-powder days is not qualified while a smokeless round is.
Baron Walfraed,
🙂 ,….might want to have someone lined up for all that “other” work. Never done one myself, but have seen it done all the way in person.
I love Lever actions. Congratulations on your purchase! Ohio recently did the same.
TCM,
I am against making triggers light by removing parts. I have too many holes in walls and ceilings to go that my. Have you lubricated the contact surfaces with moiy grease yet?
B.B.
I wish some manufacturers would just put a reasonable return spring in their triggers instead of owners having to build or purchase a more manageable replacement. They’re not even close enough on wire diameter to work with.
Maybe if someone explained to them how they could actually save money by giving us less metal there and making us happier at the same time.
BB,
No.I have not tried lubricating the contact points with Molly grease yet.I’m a little afraid of causing collateral damage so I’ll have to study the procedure.Maybe I can just take the plate off and get to them without taking the group off the tube,or disassembling the group parts.Thank you for your response.
On another note;I had a realization the other day I hope you’ll like.Maybe I heard it somewhere but I had to choose words so I don’t think so:
Those who mold their own ammunition,cast their bullets twice.-Tin Can Man-
Beautiful!
I can only make a guess,as I’ve never been in a Marauder trigger but when I did that on my Regal I completely lost all return tension to the point where if I call a shot I have to manually reset it. I really need to get some music wire to build another with, I’d also like to build a lighter one for my QB-36.
Reb
After reading quite a few reviews on various gunrests and considering shipping time, possibly having to fix or send back one I also considered going local and got caught by the bug at “Everything$.97” world, I took a gamble on an Allen sharpshooter, it only clamps the Buttstock but also has a nice wraparound sling for recoil support in centerfire applications, has 3 elevation notches and a fine adjustment knob as well as a bubble level. Although not heavy duty construction by any means, I must say I think I did fairly well. The instructions consisted of a pictograph of the parts numbered indicating steps of assembly which was actually confusing at first but turned out to be remarkably simple. I can see why PA chooses lightweght plastic insteadof carrying a similar metal beast! As I reached for the doorknob with my right and clutching the slick box to my chest with my left I could feel all 20 pounds and $30 heading for my feet.
I would recommend it to anyone with good sense, the need for one and $30 and some change.
Reb
Quick off-topic question for any of the Air Force experts around here (B.B. twotalons, gunfun1, etc.):
If you mount the optional stock on a TalonP, is a short barrel (12″ instead of 18″) EscapeUL the result in form and function?
I spent about an hour at the Air Force SHOT booth and should have asked AF staff or B.B. there but, given AF’s nearly infinitely versatile modular system and my unfamiliarity with the gun, the booth was a lot to grok! I’ve now read (or re-read) all of B.B.’s blogs about everything AF, but I would like to confirm my conclusion above. Thanks! -Cal
Cal,
If I understand what you are asking, the answer is no. The EscapeUL butt reservoir is the same size as the TalonP reservoir. An optional reservoir (stock) for the Condor (Hi Flo valve) is much larger. Also, the valve is not set up the same.
The resulting gun would work, but it would need to be tested to0 determine the parameters.
B.B.
The reason I asked, B.B., is I was looking at the Air Force specs published in the AF printed catalog (but I’m not so sure their velocity specs always “add-up” with their barrel length and energy claims with the various calibers available). From the specs, the TalonP does not seem to be a normal “Talon” and it seems to me that it would need to have a Hi-Flow valve to achieve 50 ft*lbs from its 12″ barrel in 25 cal. Specs from the catalog.
Talon (18″): 49 ft*lbs
TalonSS (12″): 40 ft*lbs
TalonP: (12″): 50 ft*lbs
Now I see on the catalong’s Air Tanks accessories page that the TalonP and Escape tanks are listed as the same (U1082 Quick-Detach and U2083 Spin-Loc) so I’m still thinking that the TalonP (not the other Talons) and the Escape share the same tank and valve (and probably the extra striker weight).
If I am right, the TalonP would be more accurately named the EscapeP, but I think it predates the Escape product line and that’s probably why it’s called a TalonP.
BTW, The Escape SS (12″) is spec’ed at 50 ft*lbs too. The TalonP page says the pistol has a “Direct-Flo” valve whatever that is (vs. “High flow”). Arghhh, are there actually FOUR valves (Direct-Flow, High-Flo, Standard, and Micro-Meter)?
Cal,
Yes, there are those 4 valves. While they may share some parts and look alike, the internal return spring pressures are set differently for each one.
That was critical to getting 50 foot-pounds from a 12-inch barrel when the TalonP came out.
B.B.
Thanks for answering my questions, B.B.! I understand now. Even though my eyes have glazed-over trying to understand all this AF stuff in the past, I finally toughed it out and I think I get it. Pretty cool!
And of course there’s the new and completely different valve in the Texan so I guess the total AF valve variation count is now up to five. I could have just waited for your next Texan segment, to be more on-topic, but I just couldn’t wait with the question burning in my head. 😉
-Cal
Playing with the .22 TX,….When I got it, I also got 4 types of pellets. JSB 15.89, AA 12.43, HN 21.14, RWS 14.5.
The 1st. two group at around 10~15mm. The HN and RWS at 15~20 mm. All domed. At 41′.
And yes, I like measuring in mm., as it much easier just to use a plastic ruler and easier to compare data.
For the heck of it, I taped a penny to my target box and shot it with the HN 21.14. It went from .055″ flat to .155″ domed with a dead center hit. It also split the back 12mm.
Since the TX is one of the featured guns, I thought I would throw in some “real time” performance reports along with some pellet stats.
While 10~20mm. is good enough for a “critter”, I have put 3 and 4 pellets through the same hole several times. I’m sure it is just me, I’m still learning and practicing. 210 shots since new.
Anxious to see how the 4 types will group 20 to 40 yds. out.
That’s why I say ~Nice Shot Man~(Filter)
Gunfunn1,
Ran outa room up top. You know I’m kidding right? Funny part is, Chairgun does mention all that!
Think I’ll just “kick it old school” like you say. Did get some little sign holders at Lowes. Just big enough to hold a 8 1/2 x 11 target when planted. Gonna’ plant them at 10,20,30,40 and 50yds. You can figure out the rest from there. 🙂
I’ve got at least 1/2dozen 18”x24″ I used in the garden last year as trestles for my purple hull peas.
Chris, USA
Good I’m glad your going to try the less technical way.
Technology is cool but down and dirty actual facts is what counts.
Let me know how that goes for sure.
Chris, USA
Oh and got Chairgun pro on my phone now.
Now I got to learn how to navigate it.
At least now I got it with me all the time. You know for the times when I need it most.
Like at work on breaks and lunch time. 🙂
Why are all these popular field target rifles underlevers, BTW?
Considering that many people mount bipods, knee rests, etc. under the stock, wouldn’t a sidelever be more convenient?
CptKlotz,
Right now the Diana 54 Air King is one of the most popular field target rifles in this country.
B.B.
Really?
Around here, the 54 seems to be a niche gun for FT at best because it is a) much more powerful than 16 joules and b) considered a scope killer due to the power *and* movement of the system.
Just repeating what I’ve read though as I haven’t used either of those rifles.
CptKlotz,
Ironically, over here people are detuning the 54s to make them shoot smoother. I suppose 16 joules is what they go fro — so that’s still too high for Germany.
Ray Apelles won the Pyramyd AIR Cup last year with a highly modified 54. That included field target, conventional silhouette and silhouettes out to 100 yards.
B.B.
B.B.
There are two power levels for FT here.
7.5 joules (the guns any adult can buy).
16 joules (I think that’s the legal limit in the UK and the FT power level came from that). I believe the HW77/97 also has more than that in its “open” configuration so there have to be springs for an “intermediate” power level.
For the latter you need a permit which you get if you have no criminal record and have been training seriously for a year or so (same goes for .22 caliber powder burners but I think higher caliber weapons are harder to get a permit for).
Maybe if I swap the worn seals and springs in my FWB300S and get a half-decent scope, I could give FT a try…
Watched a series of 1 hour shows on military snipers recently. All back to back. All I can say is,….Drop Jaw Amazing!
Chris, USA
Watched it in the past, watched it recently, and gonna watch it again.
Yep cool stuff.
GF1
Ready for the Stupor Bowl ? I got beer and pizza . Fixing up a Digiorno stuffed crust supreme with few extra goodies.
twotalon
Guess I’ll be missing the premier of a lotta commercials myself. Just got back from lunch at LJS and picking up my rest and now the wind is sustained and swirling to 25-30 mph.Almost wish I lived in a barn.
Reb
LJS really.
I love their food.
And picking up you rest? What did you get?
TT
Sorry. Don’t do the super bowl. Not to much into sports.
Now motor sports is another thing. If its got a engine or motor and it goes fast then I will probably watch it.
But the beer and pizza sounds good. Well and some wings too. 🙂
GF1
The only reason that I watch the Stupor Bowl is to see the commercials . Some times they have some really good ones. The whole thing was a bust last night. Should have found something better to watch.
Best SB commercial I have ever seen was last year I think. The Kia commercial with the tall beautiful fembots in the showroom . One of them beats the crap out of some dip who is messing with the car. I loved that one.
Wings ? Some hot wings would have been good.
twotalon
TT
Haven’t never watched the super bowl but they sure do talk about the commercials for a few days after.
And I just can’t have beer and pizza without hot wings. Just wouldn’t be right. 🙂
OK here is the post you all have been waiting for. I have both the TX200 and LGU in 177 and I have stripped both of them down to bare nuts and bolts to perfect them to my liking.
Now at 40 yards bench rested, I can not say which one is more accurate. They run parallel.
Internally they both exhibit a high standard of excellence in design and manufacture. The power plant on both are similar in that they both ride on delrin guides both front and rear of the piston tube and the rear of the piston itself.
The LGU has an “O” ring seal on the breech loading port in addition to the breech seal that they both, of course, have.
They can both easily be taken down without the use of a spring compressor, in that neither have a huge preloaded spring.
The main difference is in the trigger and although the design seems to be somewhat similar, the TX is heads above the LGU.
If you do the “Yankee” trigger mod and take the LGU trigger completely apart, hone and polish the contacting surfaces (without taking off a ton of meat from the metal, just a fine polish) and play around with the springs that fight the trigger pull. I got the LGU trigger to acceptable levels but not as light as the TX’s. If you put in the “competition trigger,” which I believe is the same trigger as in the LGV, you can gain more adjustability but not much better pull weight. I feel the reason for this is that the two first and second stage adjustment screws are just too close to each other and does not gain you much in leverage from the first stage to the second. I have my competition trigger set to a point that the second stage, on rare occasion, doesn’t even show and the trigger acts as a single stage for one shot. This adjustment is the only way I found to make the pull weight close to the TX, even though there is a pull weight screw that I nearly took out of the equation. Jarring the gun on the counter does not cause it to fire.
Don’t get me wrong. When I hand the gun to another person, I get responses like. “I have not felt a trigger that good on an air gun before.” My normal response is, “Cause you haven’t shot my TX200 yet.” The TX trigger is a one piece unit, with its guts held in place with pins, whereas the LGU trigger splits apart vertically and the parts are set in place on one side, then the other half gets popped on and screwed together with the other side.
I used Krytox grease on the piston tube’s walls and on the piston seal, in lieu of molly in both guns and added a .004″ circular shim in the LGU’s piston tube to calm the vibration of the spring down a bit (kind of a Vortek spring cover wannabe). There still is some vibration but it doesn’t seem to effect the accuracy of the gun. I could probably go to a larger diameter shim, but I find no need.to do so. I may someday insert a plastic shim of larger diameter if the spirit moves me, just to see how it goes.
When I got the LGU, there was enough oil in the chamber and piston tube to run a country. The gun was shooting in the high 1000’s due to dieseling. The instruction manual stated to shoot it and the smoke would eventually stop. Not good enough for me. I took it down, day one and cleaned things up. Re-lubed and shot repeatedly. That most likely killed the warranty, but I was not willing to shoot it until the dieseling stopped.
I think the LGU is slightly quieter than the TX but they both shoot a very acceptable noise levels.
I compete against myself with both guns and there is no clear winner.
I have requested Tom Vortek to look hard into making a kit for the LGU and he just may look into it. The spring guide from the factory is delrin, but it is not typical, in that it inserts into the trigger housing. That would have to be addressed in the kit.
Rob,
Thank you for all that work!
And by the way, Vortek is owned by Tom Gore. Maybe you knew that and were just kidding?
B.B.
[quote] And by the way, Vortek is owned by Tom Gore. Maybe you knew that and were just kidding? [/quote]
Naaaah, I wasn’t kidding. I simply messed that one up.
Bob R.,
Great information and detail on the Walther and TX200, also very well presented. Folks like you do us all a real service by sharing your experience! Most people don’t appreciate the amount of work that goes into gaining that experience that is being presented for free!
B.B.,
I am a new poster here and I would like to ask a question relating to the TX200 in general, but not specifically related to this test itself.
I have a custom tuned TX200 Mark 2 that I bought back in 1996 from a nice fellow named James Maccari. At the time, he was involved with tuning air rifles for field target competition and importing Air Arms rifles from the U.K. He sold me what he said was THE gun used for the photos in the Air Arms TX200 Mark II printed factory brochure. It has a VERY beautifully figured walnut stock and Mr. Maccari performed what he called a “full-power field target tune” on the rifle for me.
Well, at the time my job duties changed and I never got time to get to know my new air rifle. I had it stored away in a high quality water-tight case with desiccant packs all these years until just last month.
Now that I have recently retired, I find that I once again have time to pursue my hobbies (at last!).
My question is this: as you can surmise from my description, I have a nice air rifle that I would like to shoot and enjoy. However, because the value of the rifle (it was only test-fired ten shots for a group before storage) is probably on the high side (being essentially still as-new), I would like to be a bit cautious and ask your advice as to any preparation (inspection, lubrication, etc.) that you would recommend that I should observe prior to returning this gem to the world of active use after 18+ years of storage.
One extra question, if you would: this rifle has a Bausch and Lomb Elite 4000 scope in 6X24 40mm with target turrets mounted on it, do you think that this is still a good match for this particular gun? (It’s also still like brand-new, mounted but never sighted-in)
Thanks for all you do B.B.,
Dave Shaft
Dave,
Welcome to the blog.
First I will say that Jim Maccari was one of the best airgun tuners ever. Any rifle he tuned had to be the best.
Next I will tell you that Jim used very modern lubrications that are still in perfect condition in your gun. Do nothing but shoot the rifle. After 15,000 shots, you will have a better appreciation of what you really have — if you get that far. My current TX 200 Mark III has over 10,000 shots but less than 15,000 and it has never been tuned. It is factory original.
Forget cleaning unless accuracy drops off. I don’t remember ever cleaning my TX and it’s still as accurate as ever.
Your scope is a good one. Get it sighted-in and then just leave it alone. A quality scope like that will last as long as the rifle.
Good luck with your fine air rifle,
B.B.