by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
• Remington
• SIG
• Dueller
• Beeman
• Chiappa
• Diana
• Summary
Remington
Today, I’ll finish the SHOT Show 2015 report for the blog. My first stop on the last day was the Remington booth, where I hoped to learn how their airgun sales are progressing. Remington told me several years ago that they’re getting back into airguns in a major way, and their first 2 years seemed to back that up. This year, however, I was sorely disappointed.
While waiting for my conversation with the representative, I overheard him advise the man he was talking to that the Remington 1911 BB gun is perfect for his morning walks, because he could use it to shoot all the stray cats and dogs he encountered. That was enough for me! Edith and I left the booth, vowing not to return this year.
I don’t know if the Remington rep I overheard is a Remington employee or is just a member of their rep group (companies that represent products to many stores), but regardless — he spoke as a company representative. As far as I’m concerned, that was enough. A representative who says things like in public that should fired, in my opinion. I can’t do that, but I certainly don’t need to look at their products! In 19 years at the SHOT Show, this was the first time I heard a boothholder suggest using an airgun to scare off animals. Remington — get your act together!
SIG
The next stop was the SIG booth,. There was some talk at the show about their new airguns, and I wanted to get a look for you.
Sadly, I could not find anyone in their booth who knew anything about the airguns they had on display. Yes, they have a couple of PCP and CO2 guns that are tactically styled after their firearms, but no one knew anything.
And they aren’t just selling airguns, either. I saw a host of action targets and accessories in the booth. It’s obvious that someone at SIG is interested in airguns — they just haven’t put the word out to the rest of their staff. Plus, there was no literature about their products.
Yes, SIG has some new PCPs and CO2 guns. I’ll see what I can learn about them.
The number of action targets SIG displayed in their booth at the show indicates someone in the company is thinking about airguns. A pity noboby in the booth knew anything!
I’ll watch for the SIG guns and products to arrive this year and review them for you when they do. Maybe by that time, I’ll find that person at SIG who can speak about the airguns.
Dueller
I’d seen huge posters for the Arsenal Firearms AF1911 A1 Dueller — a twin-slide semiautomatic pistol that fires 2 rounds with each pull of the trigger. So, when I finally came across their booth, I just had to stop and look. I actually held the .45 ACP model that’s as wide as a fence post and as heavy as a boat anchor. I won’t be surprised to see this pistol on the silver screen in the hands of someone like Scarlett Johansson before long.
Yes, each pull of the trigger (actually 2 triggers joined in the center) fires both sides of this fantastic gun. It’s offered in .45 ACP, 38 Super, and later this year in 10mm. Sorry, Buldawg, I erred when I told you there was a 9mm. I imagine the recoil is manageable because of the weight of the gun. But practical? Give me a break! These exotic handguns, which start at $5,600, are not for target practice. They’re all about testosterone levels and whose holster is bigger.
It’s a fistful, to be sure, but I don’t think the new Dueller pistol is meant for sport.
Beeman
Speaking of dual-barreled guns, I also stopped by the Beeman booth to see what new things they had, and this year I was met by a surprise. I saw a large green tactical rifle that looked like it belonged to the Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtles. It had a thin barrel on top and what I thought was a thin cocking lever underneath. But I have since discovered this is a second barrel of a different caliber, and either barrel can be selected. The Beeman Dual, as it’s called, fills a need that doesn’t exist.
Beeman has been marketing a wide range of spring rifles with dual-caliber interchangeable barrels for the past several years. I’ve even tested them in the past. When I reread that test, it looked like the gun didn’t perform with the .22 barrel and I returned it before the accuracy test was done.
Beeman’s own Dual air rifle was an oddity. I hope to get a chance to test it.
But the new Beeman Dual isn’t a rifle that makes you switch barrels. It has both caliber barrels permanently installed and a knob on the gun determines which one is active. If it stopped there, it would have still been on the border of sane, but it doesn’t. You can actually adjust the gun to shoot BOTH barrels simutaneously, as well.
I must say, I’m intrigued! I’ll test the Dual if the opportunity presents itself. Until then, I’ll try to keep an open mind. Right now, though, my thoughts are screaming, “Why?”
Chiappa
Who?
Chiappa — the people who produce Italian firearms that mimic famous designs. You may know them for their Little Sharps rifles (.22 LR to .38-55) or more recently for their .22-caliber scaled-down 1911 pistols that sell for very affordable prices. They started making precharged air rifles in 2008, and this year they showed them at SHOT. The model is called their AR611, and they call it a 200-bar PCP air rifle.
Chiappa’s AR611 Sporter (bottom) and youth rifle (top) have a lot of interesting features. Let’s hope we get to see them!
This new line (more than one set of features) has features like a free-floated barrel, a fully adjustable trigger, adjustable open sights, a reservoir that removes and has the gauge built-in. Though the rifle is a single-shot, there’s an optional 10-shot circular magazine kit available.
A brief examination of these guns in their booth (again, there were no knowledgeable representatives on hand to explain the guns) shows a lot of promise. I can see the engineering that’s gone into these rifles, plus Chiappa has a track record of supplying good value for the price.
What they do not have in the U.S. is any airgun experience. I hope they have the good business sense to find a large reputable dealer who can lead them through the U.S. marketplace, because this product would certainly fail if left to the discount houses, where their firearms are currently being sold.
Chiappa also seems to be representing FAS, the Italian single-stroke target pistol maker. FAS is an old company that’s well-known in 10-meter target circles, but their airguns have never been properly represented here in the U.S. I hope aligning with Chiappa was a good move in the right direction.
FAS pistol
This sport version (ambidextrous grip) of the FAS 10-meter target pistol was also in the Chiappa booth. I hope they’ll be distributed well this time, for the FAS is an affordable target pistol.
FAS single-stroke target pistols have been around for the past 40 years, but perhaps with Chiappa’s help they’ll make it in the American market this time
Diana
I stopped by the Diana booth in the German pavilion several times, but there was never anyone there. I get my information about Diana imports from RWS USA, which is located at the Umarex USA booth, so I didn’t expect any surprises, but it would have been nice to talk to the new owners of Diana at this show.
At Diana I saw these historic airguns. The one on the bottom is a rare model 10 sidelever that’s been mislabeled as model 23. It shoots BBs and corks. Please excuse the reflections of the lights in the glass.
Summary
That’s where I’ll end my report of the 2015 SHOT Show. This is the year of bullpups and big bores, and I see a lot of innovation coming to the market.
The way things work, probably not all the new guns have been shown. There are always some European holdouts that show up at the IWA show in Nurnberg for the first time, so perhaps that gas-spring Diana we’re waiting for will emerge later this year. I would also expect one or two more surprises just based on past history.
BB
I have to agree with you on the Dueller to as while they may have very generous amounts of stopping power it is only good if you can get it to hit what you intend to stop and I also see the keep up with the jones ego trip in testosterone levels as you put it also. I will stick to my Ruger P89 with 15+1 and ten magazines to protect myself and family as I know I can hit what I aim it at many many times easily.
The Beeman dual precision rifle as the shooting sports news article showed it had just about your same reaction as if it actually shoots good it may be a hit but then also why and what were they thinking when they designed this gun and what market segment are they trying to appeal to.
I do hope you get to test it as I am curious if it has the power to shoot two pellets at once with any real accuracy or power.
BD
I already have a tough time finding a .45 ACP that fits well in my hand and the Beeman’s gonna be too heavy so I’m safe there,but those Chiappa’s are gonna be a weak point.I had already been comparing the Challenger and a couple other Co2 target guns as well as modifying my 953 for Co2.
Anything catch your eye this year?
Reb
Reb
No I cant say that any thing really caught my eye other than a big bore gun but then I do not have funds for a big bore and also no where to shoot it in my backyard and if I have to go to a range to shoot it then I might as well shoot one of my big bore real guns
But when I get my disability that could all change since I will have a considerable larger sum of money every month to play on.
BD
Yeah, they told me I couldn’t get my next installment til May. They’re pullin’ out all the stops to collect interest off what’s left of SSA funds anymore. In my first package from them was about 5-6 scratch offs and a flyer for rewards points for keeping your acct balance above a certain level each month.
Reb
Do what so are govt is in the lottery business now and expect you to keep a certain balance to be in good standing. That is the most ridiculous scheme I have ever heard of and just infuriate me as that money if what we have paid into all are working lives to have if it become to the point where we are unable to work at a full time job.
The issue is the commies in DC have spent that money for everything buy what it was started for and for what they took out of our paycheck all our working lives to insure we would have something to fall back on if our heath got the better of us.
I just wish we could sweep out all the trash in our govt and start over from scratch. It makes my blood boil when I hear of the totally heinous things they spend our tax dollars on and the amount of money that is sent to other countries for aid to them when our military veterans cannot even get the correct and proper care they need in a timely manner. It is time we let the rest of the world take care of themselves and we take care of our country first and then maybe worry about the rest of the world.
I know I did not work 45 years to support the rest of the world as they are of no concern to me and I am not responsible for them nor is our govt responsible for their well being or economic states.
BD
You ain’t heard nuthin’ yet! when I witnessed this and decided to have my check direct deposited into a Federal credit union it didn’t take and the funds went on my direct express card instead causing much confusion and frustration. I guess ya gotta give 30 days notice for them to get it together enough to get your money to you. The Grey shall rise again!
Reb
When it comes top our govt nothing will surprise me as they do as they please anymore since the occupant in the white house seems to think he is above the law or answers to know one but himself.
Its just another way for them to frustrate and cause undue stress to people in hopes it will cause more health issues which in turn may end that persons life short of them actually having to pay for the earned benefits,
BD
B.B.,Excellent report!
I’m glad to see Chiappa throw their hat into the Airgun arena!I tried real hard to be able to deciper the Sig codes but I think I witnessed the reason for the new camera purchase 🙂 I had heard that Sig had a couple Co2 guns and a PCP and been eager to see what they were, now I wanna know how they work.I watched a video of the duellerin .45 back this summer and shook my head.Any chances we’ll be able to get a few groups outta one of those duellers?
Reb
Well BB,
I’m proud of you for pointing out the terrible and immature sales representation that Remington had this year. Of course airguns are not for pestering or otherwise managing pets, but it’s shocking how common this habit seems to be and we who love airguns must represent this sport as it is–not as a cruel joke that would give reason for further legal banishment.
It’s no surprise that this schmuck was talking as he was. He was probably as uneducated as his fellow know-nothing salesmen. Unprofessional, to say the least.
You are doing your part to educate your blog readers as I’m sure your readers are doing to educate their children and neighbors.
Rob
Rob
I just wonder how that Remington rep would take to his pet being shot at with a bb or pellet gun by another pet owner and it almost makes me want to find where he lives and be walking down the side walk when he does just to test his own practices on him and see if is smart enough to get the picture and error of his ways.
BD
Sounds just like a review I read on the 1008
Rob: several years ago I contributed to an article about airguns published in no less a tome than Forbes magazine. I got a call from one of their staff writers who wanted to produce a piece about the product range and use of adult airguns, which was going to be printed in the ‘sports and leisure’ section of the magazine in a couple of months.. Via several long phone calls and some faxed documents I felt I managed to represent our sport quite well to the upscale Forbes reader. Two months later I received several copies of that issue of Forbes, and I almost blew a gasket!
Apparently the staff writer was a younger fellow..perhaps 25 years old, who was having deer problems at his house in New Jersey and decided to do an article on his version of deer control. Incidently..he NEVER mentioned a word of this to me during our correspondence. He DID start out the article with a history of airguns that I sent to him, and he even discussed tuning spring guns, but the main thrust of it was about how he went out and bought a Diana 34 in .177 and how he was running the deer off his property by shooting the deer in their rumps ! He went on to cheerfully announce that this practice does no harm to the animals. Then at the end of the article he credited ME with providing the info and guidance for the article ! I got on the phone and called Forbes main office and in no uncertain terms gave them a piece of my mind and that I NEVER advised him to shoot deer with a pellet gun, as such a thing can cause debilitating injuries and infection to the deer. I was pissed.
Russ,
That’s what happens when you give ignorant people a bit of info: A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Edith
Here’s the real problem with the Remington rep’s stance on shooting other folk’s pets on their morning walks, noteably dogs and cats. It’s a good way to get oneself thoroughly perforated with considerably larger caliber discouragement than a mere BB gun.
Were I to catch some some…$&@€£¥#%{% individual engaged in such a practise, the very least they could expect is a very permanent limp to contemplate in their waning years. Likely further reproduction would also be off the table for such an individual.
Remington Corp should expect a very pointed commentary from me on their rep’s stance and I’d strongly recommend everyone else drop a line to them condemning such irresponsible recommendations on the uses of their products.
I generally recommend airsoft in such applications but it’s kinda difficult when the last one I bought was hitting 10 feet farther to the left for every 20 feet worth of range.
Anybody else seeing less than lethal kits in their local Wally’s?
Reb,
Isn’t that what airsoft is all about?
Something to keep in mind about the less than lethal “stuff” is that they can get back up and do quite lethal things to you and/or take you to court and take everything you have from you that way. In a court of law, it is much better if the only testimony the jury hears is yours. Also, it is much better to be tried by twelve than to be carried by six.
I haave no intention of using one for defense but I’ve considered buying a decent barrel for my Tippman98 for the paint splatter, instead of looking for a .17 cal hole & the .43 cal seems like it may be a nice balance between power & velocity.
Actually, on further contemplation pertaining the task at hand of behavior modification for those caught BB sniping at my pets, the recently introduced Umarex air-Mauser 712 on full auto, with at least two extra mags may well do the trick.
Offering not only moral and ethical justice instantly applied, I should think a fair amount of humor would also manifest.
Applications by potential test subjects (AKA “Lab Rats”) happily now being accepted.
Okay, B.B., when you speak of Chiappa’s “scaled-down 1911” rimfire, what do you mean? I thought that Chiappa’s rimfire 1911s were full frame size pistols, just like Kimbers, Ace conversions, etc. These are always nice to have around, but that’s still an adult size frame.
Now: Browning’s “1911-22” pistols, which are in fact scaled at 85% in every dimension and part, I think constitute something exceptionally important for working with kids and others with very small hands, to instill good habits. As far as I know, the Browning is currently the only serious* rimfire pistol out there for little hands–everything else is either sized for an adult, or carries one or more significant design drawbacks–but if you’re saying the Chiappa is actually similarly reduced and occupies the same market space, then I will have to follow that up further, because that would be a big deal!
(LARGE HINT TO AIRSOFT AND BB GUN COMPANIES: MAKE SOME OFFERINGS SIZED FOR KIDS’ HANDS. Offer a truly scaled-down 1911, a J-frame revolver, and a “Chipmunk/Crickett” rifle. They don’t have to be fancy, or even repeaters. Low-velocity spring-pistons would be fine! Just make it fit a kid’s hand, rather than mine!)
_________________________
* The Brownings I’ve met in person are not perfect–triggers have been both heavy and (worse) creepy–but I haven’t seen anything yet that can’t be fixed with a small amount of competent ‘smithy work. And the size is perfect. My 6yo is within six months of it being ergonomically correct for her hand–no need for an H-grip or other hacks, nor to let the thumb drop below the safety when firing.
Just checking in again, B.B., in case this got lost. I’d love to know if you were talking about a truly scaled-down 1911, or a rimfire edition of a full-sized pistol. The latter is always a welcome entry into the market, but the former would be a Very Big Deal, at least to some of us. 🙂
Kevin,
Apparently I am confused. I have held several Chiappa 1911s over the past years and swore they were smallewr, but looking at their ads I see they are full-sized. My bad!
B.B.
Thanks for the clarification, B.B. And no worries of course; I had a feeling that might be the case.
I think it’s a given that any .22 rimfire edition of a centerfire is by definition at least a bit “cute”, and “cute” somehow always seems a bit smaller. 🙂
(It’s also frustratingly the case that .22 rimfire guns aren’t the way to shoot “on the cheap” the way that they have been for all but the last few years, either for cost or simple availability–and I would think that airgun makers would be chomping at the bit to take advantage of what hopefully will still pan out to be a temporary setback. I know I’ve become quite a believer in using select airguns and Airsoft guns for training fundamentals, and I’d think that the market for fitting kids’ hands would be a potentially large one!)
The Dueller reminds me of the Viller-Perosa. Now just how did that legendary (Not) item work out?
It’s had just short of a hundred years to establish its legendary status but aside from an appearance in one of the Indianna Jones films, seems to be notably absent on the “Legendary” list.
‘Twould seem the main talent would be to miss the target twice as often with each pull of the trigger.
Okay, sorry about that, (Citing from memory) it’s “Villar-Perosa”
If I recall correctly they cut the VP in half and came up with the Beretta Model 18 SMG. Hey! I just got a great idea about how to modify the Dueller and turn it into a good gun!
I remember shaking my head at that “Dueller” thing a while back. Look, I’m in full support of the idea of “because I can”–you know, free country and all–but I admit my practical streak is just a bit too strong to do much other than make “Waffenposselhaft Award” jokes for something so…ostentatiously impractical.
It’s like that old joke about the US investing so many millions to develop a pen that would perform reliably in space: “The Russians, faced with the same problem, used a pencil.”
I get the same joke in my head whenever I see a photo of the Dueller. “This is better than just pressing the trigger twice?” I’m almost certainly going to press twice anyway: “Anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting twice.” Well, with pistols anyway. 🙂
No, no, no, you just don’t get it. Why does a guy buy 15 AR15s? Because he has some how acquired a lot of money without having a lot of sense. This way he does not need to buy as many pistols. He can get two for the price of one.
Actually at 5600$ he can buy 2 for the price of 5 😉
J-F
Ha! A lot of truth in that, RidgeRunner. I know a lot of people who miss the irony of lauding this “sport-utility” masterpiece…by having multiple, highly specialized copies.
But never let it be said that I argue simply for frugality, either. Just wait until my (long story) full-house custom 03 Springfield arrives back from Gunsmoke in Colorado. I’m quite sure I won’t be able to shut up about that one for a while, and it is, after all, just one rifle, launching the “plain old” .30/06 from a very old-fashioned manual turnbolt action. It cost me…a lot. (And at a horrible time, too, with the bill coming due right after I got laid off.) But I can articulate how it absolutely can serve the multiple functions of what lots of other people acquire multiple rifles to do, not just adequately, but superbly.
I could have done a lot of other things with that amount of investment. But to turn my granddad’s rifle into something I will choose over nearly anything else, nearly every time…yeah, that was worth it. 🙂
I’ve shot 2 sub moa ar15’s- and one of them didn’t even have a floated hand gaurd.
I don’t own one, but just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean you have a valid position on whether they are useful rifles, neither do “antis” have a valid or even useful argument on the morality of owning one.
I’m not sure anyone is dissing the AR here. I’m certainly not; I consider mine very much a useful, multipurpose tool: defensive carbine, teaching tool for students ready to graduate beyond the .22 rimfire, and an optional precision varminter.
And I’m still learning the -fu of the AR, anyway. Originally I got mine just because it seemed prudent to understand how the system works, but truly, my respect grows the more I learn. (Imagine that!)
But some of the AR aficionadoes do open themselves up to at least good-natured ridicule, either for insisting on dozens of copies of what is supposed to be a “universal” design, or for hanging as much plumbing off their guns as is in the gun itself, or for insisting that anything less than [insert name-brand part(s) here] is going to result in instant death for the entire neighborhood…One is not necessarily disparaging the platform simply by pointing out that some people get a little silly with it.
(I’m sure, that if someone took the effort, it would be little challenge to roast me similarly for either being a Jeff Cooper yes-man, or completely preoccupied with minutiae that nobody else cares about, or any of a dozen other of my own geekeries. A lot of it might even be true! 🙂 )
Sorry, now I get it- yes 15 AR-15s is a bit much- didn’t read it right.
I could see 5 or 6 if the guy has that kind of many- they really are that versatile to have rifles sharing a platform but built for totally differant chamberings/purposes.
These particular ones I was referring to were identical. I guess he was thinking of equipping a small army in case “the balloon went up”.
No, I personally am not a big fan of the Mattelomatic, but to each his own.
Yea, I definately prefer the looks of a browning A5 or winchester 94 to an AR15- but I also understand why I was issued one. And some of the new stuff, like flash suppressers with spikes…..oh brother.
But I also think Air Force rifles are ugly. But if they’re as accurate and versatile as B.B. says, that will be my first pcp.
Now I’m off to read Fox in Sox. That Dr. Seuss was so inhumane, advocating putting socks on that fox.
Pretty is as pretty does 🙂
Edith
Edith, I’ve been considering making the journey to the “dark side” too lately, and it will probably also be an Air Force gun that takes me there.
-Cal
Cal,
Resistance is futile 🙂
Edith
I don’t know Sam. I do not mean to discourage you away from AirForce. I have a Talon SS myself. They are also very versatile with different barrels, etc., but getting them tuned in right can be intimidating for a lot of people.
You might want to give very serious thought to a Discovery or a Marauder as a first PCP.
I’m still on the fence about the EBR “look” as well, but handsome is as handsome does, and my first plunge with the AirForce TalonP suggests it does most handsomely. I’ve got a lot of time to log with it before I’ll feel truly authoritative, but so far, the advance knowledge I have picked up from B.B.’s place here has been spot-on.
Honestly, the only thing thus far that I may have to put down as an actual drawback, is the delicacy required to field-load the gun in deep cold, with gloves. (I live on the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska.) It’s an ingenious action, and a delight to use with unfrozen fingers…but here, I suspect, is a place where a P-Rod would prove superior in the field. (It has nothing to do with the “speed” of the subsequent shot, but rather with the tendency to fumble the reload.)
And your “Fox in Socks” reference makes me smile shamelessly. That was a perennial favorite with both my girls; a masterpiece of wordplay and simple fun. My respect for Dr. Seuss’ talent has far exceeded the (rather significant) expectation that I had in advance. I maintain that one can get a near-absolute understanding of modern politics simply by reading “Thidwick, the Big Hearted Moose”, “The Butter Battle Book”, and perhaps “Yertle the Turtle”. (Full disclosure: I certainly have my own disagreements with Geisel on a few details, but his treatment of the biggest points is just masterful.)
Dr. Seuss was a genius.
My 2 year old watches me chuckle as I see Sylvester McMonkey McBean coming to clean house. “If you only add this car payment to your life, then you will fit in.”
Horton Hatches an Egg! Another great story, I hear a great statesman echo that story with his own about a little red hen planting wheat.
Are you familiar with Beatrix Potter? I have 2 little daughters also and I read Jemimah Puddle Duck to them- because it is a story about WAY more than a fox wanting to eat duck. She was a genius story teller.
Yeah, you can say to either my 6yo or my 3yo, “An elephant is faithful…” and you will get “…one hundred per cent!” in response.
The only Potter we’ve done thus far is the Peter Rabbit story, which I admit I’m a bit lukewarm on. It sounds as though I may want to rethink that and at least look up Jeremiah Puddle Duck. Thanks for the tip!
Back on the subject of bears, as a youth my Father killed a black bear with a .22, however it did take more than one shot. He said they kept ricocheting off of it’s skull until he was able to place one in the eye and it entered the brain.
No, you do not always need a lot of power, but sometimes it is nice to have.
I’d say surplus power is always nice to have. I figure I owe it either to whatever I’m shooting at (if on offense), or to myself (if on defense).
I’ve been seeing this Real Action Marker stuff for a while now. anybody tried any out?
Beemans “Dual” rifle and the Dueller 1911 have something in common: Two barrels where one would suffice. That having said, I like to see that some people create guns that are not necessarily built for practical purpopses only, but also made to be interesting, fun to use and odd. The Dueller certainly targets collectors and 1911 fans…but the Beeman?
Maybe they’re considering it Beeman’s contribution to this years big bore rivalry.177+.22=.397 or .40 cal big bore?
I don’t think it’s a bad idea IF…..both barrels shoot to the same aim point. I know that was real hard to do with double barrel dangerous game rifles that were hand made.
Just readall I could find on the FAS 611, Sounds like a light and very manageable as well as accurate gun. I can’t wait to see what Chiappa does with it! It would be nice if they’d offer a silenced version for us here in the US. I hope they don’t have a problem with trying it around the $500ish mark.There’s some serious Marauder competition except for the report. Did I hear optional 10 round mags? and a .22
It’s a shame about the representatives being MIA or in dereliction of their duties.
So much more to learn about these offerings!
B.B.,
“Hats off” to you for “calling out” the Remington rep. issue! As I read your article, I could sense your disappointment and frustration when coming up on unattended booths and non-informed reps.
I would think, as most of your readers would, that all of the booths would be attended by only the most professional and well informed personnel.
Chris,
Yeah, you’d think that the booth owners would want to put their best foot forward at a show that’s costing them a LOT of money. But if it’s not coming out of your own pocket (as it is with the sales rep), it sometimes doesn’t matter what you say or who you hurt.
Edith
I bought a FAS6004 Standard pistol from Airguns of Arizona last August for $388, and it is a heck of a nice single stroke pneumatic. They also carry the Match version and the FAS609 pre-charged pneumatic. Too bad they aren’t more widely available.
I would really like to find out if Remington management knows and approves of their rep saying those things. If so I would be inclined to never give Remington any of my money ever. Even if this doesn’t reflect the official company line it at least indicates they’re doing a very bad job of vetting their people. A company rep, especially one who is the company face at a large show shouldn’t be this ill-informed or ignorant.
Loved seeing the ridiculous double-1911. Reminds me if the guy who built a “Moe Sizlack Special” side-by-side double barreled pump action 12 gauge shotgun. Of course that guy was doing it as an intentional joke. These guys seem serious – which makes it much funnier. Sort of like a Ed Wood movie. I’m eagerly looking forward to seeing a Youtube video of some fool double-wielding them, holding them sideways.
I would like to see the weird double barreled Beeman tested. I want to see the groups it gets when you fire the .177 and .22 barrels simultaneously and a measurement of how far the pellet makes it up its barrel when you only have one pellet loaded but accidentally fire both barrels.
On a positive note I liked reading about Chiappa’s plans. I’ve been mulling over buying one of the FAS pistols for a while now. I like the SSP powerplant because it requires no CO2 (as the Tau Brno match pistols do) or PCP support equipment. I love match guns in general but certainly don’t shoot at the level where I need a new top of the line gun. I’ve been holding off buying a new one as I still hope to find a good used FWB spring pistol to go with my 602 rifle.
I would think there should be a way to only fire one barrel.
It is surprising that Sales Reps in a booth have no knowledge of the products on display. Do you believe this is due to a lack of interest on the part of the manufacturers, or just lack of attention to airguns because this is a much smaller market?
Do sales reps ever know anything about what they are selling? Judging from my last car buying experience I would say not.
Fred_BR,
This is what happens when someone gets a show badge for free and has to stand in a booth for a few hours to earn it. These companies don’t realize the damage they are doing to themselves when they have a person like that wearing their badge.
B.B.
B.B.,
Just as a reminder, April 1 is coming up pretty soon. It would seem this Shot Show has more than a little potential for…creative reviews of certain products.
(Years ago I seem to recall a photo of one of those BMF crank adapters firmly attached to the trigger guard…of a single shot Hawken rifle.)
There’s some promotional potential here.
The duffs at Remington would certainly be interested.
103David,
the problem with my April Fools jokes are they sometimes come true. I published one about a NASA air rifle and then a few months later Crosman came out with the Rogue that looked exactly like my joke!
/blog/2011/04/nasas-moon-mission-airgun/
B.B.
You should have told that rep that he was a dumbass and in front of the other guy and as many people as possible. I guess the print ON the gun about it not being a toy and the possibility to hurt people still isn’t big enough.
One day someone will call the cops on him and he’ll get shot and if we’re lucky he still hasn’t reproduced.
I do some work to help stray cats. We do some trap, neuter and release and catch hurting cats and the number of cats who have pellets and BB’s in them is astonishing to an airgun enthusiast like me. I’m a bit saddened by the human kind each time we find another one.
J-F
Yes, the Remington rep makes me angry too. Very angry. Even if he’s coming up with free-form dumbassery on his own and this isn’t the company line it doesn’t reflect too well on Remington’s hiring practices that they would make someone this ignorant and stupid the face of the company at a major show.
On a brighter note, I found the FAS pistol interesting. I may actually get one myself but first I’m going to see if I can score a used FWB spring or SSP match pistol to complement my 602.
On the other hand those SIG airguns look fabulous by what I was able to find on the web.
All single action, all repeaters, all blowback… they seem to be perfect copies of the firearm and since they’ll be using pellets you’ll be able to shoot them with more accuracy and no fear of ricochets.
As for that double 1911 amd testosterone levels I can see some pretty good jokes associated with a certain male body that also comes in pair… but I don’t want to be grounded by Edith.
The Beeman dual barrel seems goofy at best. It opens the door for lots dry fire and breakage and the molded fake mag… come-on… I think the gun already looks dumb enough as is!
Apparently they’ll have scope designed for this gun with different aim points for the .177 and .22 pellets or easy to adjust tourets or something like that.
J-F
And a double scope? That could be a good reason for this rifle’s existence. Scopes with both primary and secondary reticles.
B.B., thanks for a little more info on the Beeman which I’d noticed in one of your Facebook posts. I thought that looked like a Beeman logo in that original photo! While I’m all for innovation (Sony combining a radio and tape player in their original Walkman comes to mind), I concur that I don’t see where the marketing impetus for this one came from. How do you sight in a gun like this? The two calibers will have different impact points, especially at longer ranges. I suspect this one will be a curious footnote in the history books, and would have expected it from someone other than Beeman…
HS,
Like I said — I hope I get a chance to test one.
B.B.
Edith, FYI my comment didn’t post. When I tried again I got a duplicate comment error. Hope you can find it floating around on your end.
As for Remington giving out bad advice to shoot cats with their BB guns…their new “War against squirel” ad campaign for their airguns is off-putting as well.
I’m a hunter myself, and believe that one must honor and respect every animal, especuially if one decides to hunt them. What they do is belittle squirrel, make fun of shooting them, and request the airgunners to “join the war” against squirrel, as if they had forgotten about what a war is, and what horrors it brings along.
Careful , Mel,, perhaps you haven’t noticed that there are those, here, who seem to enjoy the “war” on squirrels, and sparrows.
Far be it from me to try to justify the Remington rep’s comments, but I have to make the comment that there are a great number of people who obtain carry permits so they can “protect themselves” from stray animals while out on walks. This guy’s suggestion,, that one of his BB guns would make a good substitute, that wouldn’t need a permit to carry,, might make sense to such a person.
Those who take it upon themselves to tune, modify, or even make adjustments to their airguns,, are a small minority of the airgun buyers. If one of the majority would like to have one gun with the ability to fire two calibers of pellet,, this Beeman might interest them.
Sorry if I stepped on any toes.
Yea, how I see it is if the barrels shoot the same left to right but the pellets just have a differrant trajectory- I could see it being kind of cool- but I don’t think I would buy it.
I knew a girl whose dad passed but left her with a .22wmr/410 over onder gun- cool gun.
edlee,
The full statement made by the Remington rep (and Tom may not have heard it) was to shoot cats and dogs in the stomach. It was all I could do to not throttle him right there on the show floor. Seems to me, he only wanted to injure animals, not kill them. Doing so sentences them to agonizing suffering. I would have corrected him, but my experience in these matters has convinced me that (1) men do not like to be corrected by women (esp. women they don’t know) and/or (2) they’ll agree with you/back track in front of others and then laugh at you/deride you if they think you can’t hear them. You can’t fix stupid, and that’s how I characterize men like that. Been there, done that.
I’m guessing no one from Remington reads this blog, so there’s a good chance nothing will come of this. Incidentally, I made sure the person who made these statements was wearing a Remington show tag and not just someone who was looking at their guns and speaking out of sheer ignorance.
Edith
http://www.airriflehunter.com/
Well, “expert” online advice recommends the Red Ryder for barn bird hunting here
Dear Edith,, surely you know, by now, that we men don’t like to be corrected by ANYONE.
So long as they’re right and not trying t make a fool of me but help me look like less of a fool I have no problem with being corrected.
Does anyone remember that great comedy program Get Smart ? In one episode, chaos, the bad guys organization was sending a new deadly firearm to its agents. It was two revolvers joined together ! Just look at the picture of the dueller, and picture it as a twin revolver. Just like Max Smart,s shoe phone predicted the cell phone, Hymie the robot will probably be next . Ed
Ed,
Your handle got me thinking. No Independence Before Majority Rule.
But what if the majority is clueless?
A shocking lack of information from a few booths there, the Remington guy obviously thought he was talking about an airsoft gun or something, who knows what was playing out in his head. As for so many manufacturers displaying airguns without reps knowing anything about them, it’s a poor showing and describes the US lack of interest quite well, you boys have got an uphill struggle.
I often wonder about lumping BB and plastic fantastic guns in with adult airguns and whether it muddies the waters in the mind of US firearm shooters who may otherwise appreciate a pcp or fine spring gun, it’s an anomoly not shared this side of the pond, even our press, daft as it is, wouldn’t put a BB action pistol in their pages, or a moronic tacticool thing, they are seen as quite, quite, different and of no appeal to someone who might want an air rifle or shotgun for sporting use.
I think until review sites, even this one, fall into that camp, and make a more severe definition, US shooters will always see airguns as toys and companies will respond to that with this lack of interest.
Dom,
This is why I am so adamant about not calling airsoft balls BBs. I know the Asians label them that way, but they label them BB bullets — which they aren’t.
Something as simple as a title can cause confusion. Although in the case of the Remington rep, I don’t think he was confused. He meant what he said.
B.B.
Even BB guns, I feel, need to be defined far away from an AA TX200 before the US market will ever see the advantages offered by sporting air rifles.
The problem is over there is that most people’s definition of an airgun, and only experience of one tends to be a BB gun.
I don’t think airguns will ever be taken that seriously until Airsoft and BB go one way in online and review terms and serious airguns start getting reviewed somewhat seperately.
That double calibre Beeman should have been drowned at birth, it would have been so easy (if you have to make one) to put it in a nice o/u shotgun style stock with a double trigger, but no, of course not, it just has to ape an Accuracy International sniper rifle.
It’s no wonder powder burners snigger at airguns
http://www.airriflehunter.com/
This is the sort of information that US airgunners, foolish enough to stray from here run into
Dom,
I didn’t see any airsoft guns at the Remington booth. I think he’s typical of people who think airguns are just harmless little things that don’t hurt anyone.
Edith
No Edith, that’s quite possibly the point I’m clumsily trying to make, in US public perception a Walther LGU and a Red Ryder are different versions of the same thing, a cheap airsoft and an Umarex action pistol, or Remington, again, the perception is blurred.
And it’s ultimately not helpful to reveiw and serve all these markets equally in print, to a complete novice happening upon this site and browsing through, they will find Co2 action pistols next to HW 100’s something that you won’t generally find in the European press who perceive the two things as seperate as a bicycle and a BMW.
Just food for thought about how a burgeoning market can be educated into making a more serious definition…..and avoiding the sort of misinformation this rep was disseminating.
Lots of action on this blog this morning. Sorry I wasn’t able to join in but for a change, I got a good nights’ sleep! For the other side of the coin, I used to participate in motorcycle trade shows, manning a booth for a publication. If a booth was empty, it was because of a coffee break, a conversation you were having at another booth, curious about what your competition was coming out with, a comfort break – as it’s called in the bicycle races or even doing business with a potential client. You just don’t spend 100% of your time in your booth. It just works out that way. Of course, you normally try to wander away during a slow period but those who have done this before can attest it can get real busy real quick with no warning. Hey, I’ve been to the Roanoke airgun show and found tables of airguns unmanned because the owner was at the end of the aisle doing a trade with someone else or taking that “comfort” break.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred,
The booths I’m talking about today range in price from $100.000 to $500.000. There is never a time when the booth is not manned by several people. Ever!
SHOT is big business and the companies who attend cannot afford to leave their booths unattended for a moment, so they bring enough staff to cover them.
B.B.
That’s the best way not to make money(not being there to take it when it does show up and when it comes it does so in spurts) Carny-wise.
B.B./Edith,
Caption under photo of FAS pistol reads “FAS single-stroke target pistols have been around for the past 40 yards,”. For some reason this one made me chuckle. Should read “40 years”.
G&G
G&G,
Thanks. Maybe we were thinking about the Superbowl? 😉
B.B.
B.B.,
Hadn’t thought of that. It’s quite possible.
G&G
Any guess as to the price on one of those Chiappa 611’s?I read the FAS was running just over 10 fpe. Sound about right?
Rewb,
The literature says 16 joules, which is just under 12 foot-pounds.
B.B.
Just enough for solid sporting. Not sure I’d be comfortable staying at that power level but if as accurate as they look in what I’ve seen so far(reminds me of my 953 but on steroids) I’d be interested in a price. I’m hoping it’ll be light enough for me to retry myself at offhand shooting.
B.B.,
I don’t remember if you made it to Gletcher’s booth this year. From what I can tell they have been making guns for other Brands for a while (most of the Legends Line as an example) and have now decided to release them under their own name. Or maybe I’ve got it backwards. In any event, their handguns are among some of the most interesting new guns this year IMO.
G&G
G & G
I agree that Gletcher has some interesting offerings in handguns. Pyramyd AIR has one Gletcher revolver in which the ammo cylinder is removable from the revolver frame. It begs the question whether accessory cylinders will be available in addition to the accessory shells that hold the BBs.
B.B.
I agree with you wholeheartedly about the Remington booth representative. I also admire your self-control for just walking away. I probably would have interrupted his conversation by getting in his face and telling him what I thought about him and his comment.
B.B.
Got a good gift for my B-day this time – a set of spare parts for my Haenel-311.02. Spent all Saturday evening turning it back into working condition and finally made it work. The result is a big and very tough-to-cock gun with very modest power, but I just like its crazy mechanics 🙂
duskwight
duskwight,
Well, Happy Birthday, young man!
I have a 311. Isnit it complex? All that work for such a piddly shot! But they are accurate.
B.B.
B.B.
To my eye it’s not _extremely_ complicated, but it’s really mechanically crazy and yes, complicated. I think complexity is the result of combination of extremely cheap and very expensive technology in this rifle. Metal-metal sealing in its tap it really cool, but the rest of it is cheap stamped steel with very crude work inside, when only piston part of the tube is smooth.
I believe it’s a typical example of German way of thinking and doing things. German guys like to complicate things and make them in 4 parts instead of 1. What truly amazes me is its safety solution – I’ve never seen such fantasticTom&Jerry-like combination of pushing, pulling, levers, plates, springs, pins and in the end – that rubber block “spring” and ball detent.
Anyway, it works somehow and works crisp and accurate. I’d keep it as an interesting artifact, not an actual “job” rifle.
duskwight
Mr. Gaylord
From what you saw at shot, is the Chiappa’s AR611 new or is it just a renamed FAS AR 611? From the pictures you have, it’s unclear if it’s able to mount an aperture and globe sight. Can aperture sights be mounted? What about it’s power? Will it be 3 position rules compliant? While it maxes out at 200 bar, what are Chiappa’s claims for the AR611 sweet spot on it’s power curve? And is there any word about it suggested price? Any additional information you can provide on this rifle would be appreciated?
Thank you for including this rifle in your shot show report.
Respectfully submitted
William Schooley
Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
William,
Yes, it is possible to mount a globe front sight. So this is a rebadged gun.
B.B.
The photo of the 1911 Dueller – made me check my calendar to make sure it was still February. I’m still not 100% sure that’s not Photoshop at play.
Steve,
Remember those funny columns Tom used to write in “The Airgun Letter” about Elvis B. Phargone and his goofy inventions? Hard to believe that some people called us to ask where they could buy these items. But it happened. We told them it was a joke, but they often didn’t believe us. These were not unsophisticated people who would be snookered by Nigerian inheritance email scams.
So, this year’s April Fool’s Day blog will have to be a real whopper that will hopefully not become a real product at next year’s SHOT Show!
Edith
Tom,
I stumbled upon an online article about that double-barrelled . . . uh. double PERIOD 1911. At first I thought it was a clever Photoshopped visual joke!
These companies are embracing the “penny-wise but pound-foolish” stragtegy by not sending a few knowledgeable employees to trade shows. It is absolute idiocy from a business standpoint. Spending so much on R&D, market analysis, manufacturing, and distribution but then going cheap on reps at the SHOT Show? Unbelievable.
Michael
Tom,
On a very different note than my comment above, my mother’s cat was shot with a BB gun by someone as it roamed and napped in her yard about six or seven years ago. The steel BB shattered his right rear leg, and the veterinarian was able to surgically repair/replace the broken bones with rods and plates. The cat barely survived and clearly had pain for months after. Fortunately, he did make a complete recovery.
Thank goodness Edith and you were the folks to overhear the Remington rep’s cat and dog torturing boast. I am six foot one and 350 pounds. If I had overheard that, he would have been carried out of the show on an EMT gurney, and I would have been led away in handcuffs.
Michael
Michael,
I appreciate how you feel.
We have learned from years of trade shows that when you are confronted by a fool the best thing to do is walk away. I’ve tried talking to them in the past, but these are very dense people and you can’t get through.
B.B.
If I caught that fool shooting at my cats, he may have to adjust to a life without kneecaps.
Friday at the rifle range, a stray cat wandered into the area behind the targets. All shooting stopped until he was safely in the clear.
Les
Knowing the development and tooling costs of bringing a product to market it never ceases to amaze me as to what wild (to my humble opinion) ideas show up for sale.
From a practical perspective a small double-barreled derringer (or “Pepper-Box) pistol makes sense – but a full size double pistol???? Not to me.
For home defense it is hard to be my double-barreled 12 gauge coach gun loaded with 3” magnum buck-shot… no need to be precise either. LOL!
BB, I don’t know if I want to thank you for that review did on the Weihrauch HW100 PCP. You did warn that you review might cause people to want one… well it happened – they are one awesome piece of kit!!!
Bought a .177 caliber that puts out about 21fpe! I will be re-tuning down to around 17fpe after the first breaking-in can of pellets is empty. The gun “points” extremely well for me and the weight is perfect – very stable for off-hand shooting, the balance is superb and the trigger is fantastic (and I am comparing it to my FWB 603 trigger).
Your caution about shooting into a silent-trap was well taken – impacts into duct-seal leave substantial craters! For safety I am using a 6” thick pine log as backstop.
Each to their own but I like traditional guns of blued steel and wood. The HW100 is a beauty!
Yes, I decided – BB, thanks for that review!
Vana2
Vana2,
“Oh, yes, I’m the Great Enabler…” (sung to the tune of the Great Pretender.)
Glad you like the rifle.
B.B.
I think it would be neat if the Beeman would fire a .22 cal up top and a smooth bore shot shell below. And unlike Gamo, make it to where the shot shell are cheaper than you can buy 12 or 20 ga shells! I think Gamo really dropped the ball on that one. But, that’s just me.
That beeman dual has me eyeballing it with more than great interest. Maybe more amorous than interested. I’m going to be very interested in seeing it tested. If it turns out it shoots well I might plunk down the bucks if I think the price is good.
BB
It’s up to everyone who cares about this air gun hobby to educate each other about wrong and write. A lesson on pest control and animal cruelty should be explained immediately when comes up in conversation or at ears throw. No different than explaining safety or responsibility.. to anyone thinking about owning any air gun.. I’m also concerned with all the big bores coming main stream I’m a nerves jenny that one incident will be taken over board on how air guns are viewed by authority.
BB they guy in the Remington booth that was so repulsive is really speaking for a lot of air gunners. On the forums all these guys want to do is shoot anything in their yard that is in their range. they keep scores at the bottom of their posts. grown men shooting 90 pigeons in one sitting. if I was like that I would get a job in a slaughter house. when I was a kid I killed everything that walked flew crawled or swam. when I got older and saw what a struggle life was and the animals have it real hard now I just leave them alone
I think a blog about safety and being responsible is in order. We all either heard or saw someone using a bb gun or air gun in general (air soft) that was negligent. I cant imagine reading terrible story from a different country that a man was trying to eradicate a problem with stray cats from his property with his bb gun, while his negligent neighbor who does not neuter his cats and cant properly care for all, gets wind of the man shooting his bb gun and pulls out his .45 acp. and shoots his neighbor .
Sorry for repeated point in comments – for the first time ever I had a comment seemingly disappear and as it hadn’t showed up after a wait and clearing of the browser cache I thought it was gone because of a mistake on my end so I posted pretty much the same thing but in a couple of replies.
Did Baretta make a double barrel pistol that used side by side clips?
I know I watched a show on tv a while back of how they made it. And then they let the person touring the plant shoot it. And I do believe it was a 9 mm.
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t this double barrel pistol on today’s blog.
Just wanting to know.
Well I said to myself I wasn’t going to say anything about this on the blog but I guess I will the more I thought about that Remington guy shooting the peoples pets.
My hunting dog that I had passed away about two weeks ago. She was going on 17 years old. Got her and a male of the same breed at the same time about a year before my oldest daughter was born.
She followed me everywhere I went. She couldn’t wait to get out in the woods. The male didn’t want nothing to do with hunting. And the male is my oldest daughters buddy.
I’m going to be real nice right now because my daughters read the blog at times. But if that guy ever shot one of my dogs or my cat that we have he wouldn’t know which way was up when I was done.
So now for probably the last 4 or so years my dog didn’t hunt any more. She was a sqerrial hunter. And yep I use to hunt a lot.
And now I do help the city if there is pest problems. And I can say I never shot a dog or a cat and never will. If its a injured cat or dog that is suffering theres other people they call on for that. Not me.
Then there are pests that try to overtake a area. And those pests are never a cat or dog. A dog and a cat is a persons pet and usually tend to be looked at as part of the family. Heck I think I paid more medical bills trying to keep my two dogs and the cat healthy compared to what I paid on myself.
And they tend to get out of things that my kids get hollered at about. Like the cat and dog running around the house playing at 2:00 am in the morning. I never let my girls do that when they were young.
Yea me and that guy would have a problem if he messed with my family. Be it my wife, daughters or my pets.
Sorry to hear about your hunting dog, Gunfun1. Losing a dog is one of the hardest things in life, I think. Knowing the pain, first-hand, George Carlin used to question the wisdom of even acquiring a dog as a pet in the first place, because it’s a certain future family crisis in the making!
I think there are several risks, dangers, and potential undesirable outcomes associated with shooting an air gun at pets and I believe that it is a bad idea. In the past, Robert Beeman and Beeman catalogs have discussed “pest chasing” and shooting at “annoying dogs.”
From Beeman’s personal website, http://beemans.net/field%20use.htm.:
“Experiment by shooting at a grapefruit, a potato, or the like at various distances to be sure that you are not going to cause unnecessary, cruel wounds. Up close, use only cleaning pellets!”
and
“Editor’s Note: Please update the above remarks to the current situation for availability of airgun models, pellets, etc.. This chapter last appeared in the 19th edition (1994) of the Beeman catalog. I suspect that such suggestions of shooting living things was not “politically correct” enough for the new ownership of the Beeman company. I hope that you have enjoyed this old article, most of its information is as good as the day it was written.”
-Cal
Cal
Thanks. And my wife asked if I was going to get another dog. Rel quick I answered nope. And the male dog is probably not far behind the other one. And I don’t hunt anymore anyway. The cat we have us a little over a year old so that will be it for pets I think. And the cat will go with my oldest daughter when she is old enough in about another to decide when she wants to move out. If she decides to move out!
But u will check out the link though. Thanks again.
Suppose to say but I will check out the link though.
BB
I have been interested in dual barrel airguns for some time. But I want one that can shoot both barrels accurately. No one scoffs at Whiscombe! I almost bought a Beeman dual barrel but was put off after your test. I am very much interested in a test of this novelty. Is it a springer?
I see nothing wrong in these quirky novelties They make our hobby much more diverse. Odd ball inventions sometimes make it big. I am somewhat of a collector of airguns and my goal is to own a collection with each being different, i.e. PCP, break barrel, SSP, air shotgun, under lever etc. etc. With these new specimens appearing, my collection is forever growing!. BUT THEY MUST BE ACCURATE!
Ton
I made a comment the other day when I was talking to Buldawg about the new Beeman dual barrel.
Maybe a person could use one of the barrels with open sights and then get some of those see through scope rings and mount a scope for the other barrel.
That way the open sights could be used for quick open site picture for mice or something up close then if you needed to make a longer distance shot you have the scope where the big field of view isn’t as necessary.