Airguns they should make

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

This report covers:

  • Weihrauch
  • Crosman
  • Diana
  • Up for grabs — Umarex?

Today, I’m going to talk about some airguns I wish were made. I’m not talking about the fine guns of 60 years ago that were made of blued steel and nice walnut. I understand that level of hand work costs so much that it is practically impossible to build today — outside of a handmade proposition. What I’m taking about are airguns that could be made with very little risk or cash outlay by the manufacturers. The basis for some of these guns is in the inventory right now and require only minor changes to make entire new models that I believe shooters will embrace. This is how the Air Venturi Bronco was designed, and also how the $100 PCP was created.

Weihrauch

Weihrauch got rid of their HW55 target rifle a number of years ago. They had to, because they weren’t selling enough of them to keep the model alive. Precharged and CO2 target rifles had kicked spring-piston target rifles out of the market in the 1970s, and the demand for a recoiling spring target rifle ended. The guns continued to sell to private individuals who don’t shoot in competitions; but as time passed, even they began looking elsewhere. I get that! The costly HW55 had to go away.

HW 55 CM
The HW55 Custom Match was the high-water mark of the HW55 series. It didn’t sell well at the end of its life because of the price, and also because spring target rifles fell out of favor.

But Weihrauch is sitting on a goldmine of an airgun today that could be turned into a bold new product for them. Their HW30S — the little springer with the Rekord trigger — is a wonderful air rifle. If they would modify the trigger that now comes in the 30S into a target Rekord like the HW55 had, and if they would mount an inexpensive peep sight, it would be a wonderful informal target rifle. It already comes with a globe front that accepts interchangeable inserts, so nothing more needs to be done there. I think there would be a demand for this rifle.

The challenge is the retail cost. Pyramyd Air now sells an HW30S for $330. If the changes I am about to recommend could be done while keeping the retail price under $400, I think there would be a demand.

I want a stock with a longer pull. I want a target-grade trigger. I want a rear peep sight to compliment the globe front sight with its replacement inserts. The peep sight doesn’t have to be a full-blown target model. Do what Diana did and make a sporting sight by replacing the notch with a peephole.

Diana peep sight

This “target” rear sight from Diana is simply a nice adjustable sporting open sight to which they have mounted a round peep hole. This one is mounted on a Diana 25, but they also used it on the models 70, 72 and others.

The trigger modification is even easier. Hans Weihrauch Jr. told me that the target trigger in the HW55 was a standard Rekord that had a lightweight trigger return spring with a locking adjustment screw. So, do that. Just put in a lighter return spring and interrupt the adjustment screw threads to make the trigger weight adjustment screw harder to turn.

Standard Rekord trigger
The standard sporting Rekord trigger has an aluminum adjustment screw behind the blade. It adjusts the tension on the standard trigger blade return spring.

target Rekord trigger
The target Rekord has a locking sleeve around the trigger-pull adjustment screw.

The stock and new rear sight will be the two high-cost items, but even there they don’t have to spend a lot of money. They can lengthen the pull of the standard stock with spacers at the butt.

Keep the risk low by selling a limited run of this new model. Call it the HW30ST and build 200 of them. If they evaporate in a month — you’ll know what to do next!

Crosman

Crosman made a lot of epic airguns over the years, but the Crosman 600 semiautomatic pistol is perhaps the most iconic! It’s a 10-shot repeater that has a light trigger-pull and real semiautomatic operation.

Crosman 600 semiauto CO2 pistol
Crosman’s 600 semiautomatic pistol is a delight to shoot! It’s a real semiauto with a great trigger.

A 600 is a delight to shoot! So much so that people are paying premiums to get them in working order. But the 600 has a bunch of parts that are not currently made by Crosman, and it isn’t cheap to reinvent the wheel!

Don’t go that way. Don’t try to re-make the Crosman 600. Do something different. Several years ago, Crosman made a carbine called the Nightstalker. It was a 12-shot repeater that functions ALMOST semiautomatically! The Nightstalker cocks semiautomatically, but Crosman left the advancement of the circular clip up to the trigger. That boosted the trigger-pull to 7 lbs. instead of less than 2 lbs. for the 600.

Crosman Nightstalker
Turn the Crosman Nightstalker into a semiauto pistol, and you’ll recreate the 600!

Take the Nightstalker action and make it a pistol. Let the semiautomatic action also advance the cylinder so the trigger can be made light. If Crosman would make a pistol like that, I bet it would set sales records!

This project is not as free from risk and as cheap as the Weihrauch rifle is. Someone has to support it, because major changes have to be made to the action. If they do decide to undertake it, just remember — a good trigger sells guns!

Diana

Diana recently changed hands. It remains to be seen what the new owners will do.

What I would advise them to do is base a new rifle on their popular 48 platform. Most of the tooling costs should have been amortized for that model long ago.

So, what should we do? Well, the 48 has more than enough power. Let’s take some of that away by installing a weaker mainspring that is somewhat easier to cock. Let’s put the 48 on a weight reduction program with most of the weight coming out of the wood stock. Do that by slimming the stock to a more classic profile — slimmer pistol grip, slimmer forearm, and a slimmer butt that has an adjustable cheekpiece.

Eliminate the open sights and the barrel jacket that often becomes loose. Have an engineer go over the T06 trigger and refine it to be more adjustable and give it an adjustable over-travel stop.

Know what you’ve just built? A field target rifle that can compete with the TX200 Mark III and the Walther LGU.

Don’t tell me it can’t be done, or that such a rifle wouldn’t be in demand. The recoilless Diana 54 is very popular with field target shooters today. The 48 is just a version that recoils.

Look at the rifle field target shooter Ray Apelles made — and used it to win numerous championships. It’s a 54 with his custom touches. I’m not advocating that Diana build that rifle, but what they can do is within their grasp and not expensive. They have so much clay that’s just waiting to be shaped!

Apelles Diana
Ray Apelles used his modified Diana 54 to win the 2014 Pyramyd Air Cup — beating several world-class shooters who were using world-class PCPs!

Up for grabs. Umarex?

Here’s a freebie that’s up for grabs. Make an airgun replica of the Liberator pistol the U.S. made during WWII for resistance fighters. With all the interest that exists for military replica guns, the Liberator should be a snap. Only make this one last for more than 50 shots without coming apart the way the firearm did.

Liberator
The Liberator from World War II would make a fine air pistol!

Yes, I think there are a lot of opportunities that have been overlooked by airgun manufacturers. While they concentrate on high velocity and thumbhole stocks, they’re ignoring the sector of the market that has disposable cash to spend. Don’t make them faster, guys. Make them better!

207 thoughts on “Airguns they should make

  1. Very good article, and a lot of food for thought.
    I can see the liberator as a spring catapult bb gun with very little work.

    A pressed metal frame, and tube barrel, the firing spring is cocked when the bb is loaded from the rear just like the firearm, and held in place with a magnet.
    It couldn’t get much easier than that..
    And they would sell thousands..

    Package them with the same instructions and packaging as the ones dropped behind the lines during WWII.


    • 45Bravo,

      That’s exactly what I thought. I think the gun can be made simple because the buyers will expect it. After all, the firearm certainly was.

      It doesn’t have to shoot well. But the closer it looks like the firearm, the more they will sell.

      B.B.


      • Personally, I’d never buy it. There is already enough “junk” out there that we don’t have to manufacture more “out-of-the-box” junk to supplement it. To the manufacturers: Put your efforts into quality, appearance, accuracy, at reasonable cost, and the buyers will come! Ditch the cheap plastics for thicker, more resilient plastics and metals, and make your products to last! Even China will built what your contractual specifications require, with more than enough profit per unit left in the market. You don’t have to build a BETTER “mouse trap” – just a reliable one that will always catch mice!



    • The Liberator is an interesting choice but I could see a problem, if the replica falls apart after 50 shots the manufacturer could just claim it was accurately representing the original weapon 🙂


  2. All of these ideas are spot on B.B. These manufacturers would do well to heed your advice. as for the Liberator I think that would be a great replica, didn’t know anything about that firearm until now. Thanks for that!


  3. My 2 cents:
    HW needs to have its own custom shop; guys spend a ton to get their rifles tuned and have to wait months. Why not just offer these services in house?

    And the one I have asked for before – I pellet rifle that gets 18 to 20 ft. lbs. and uses a 9 ounce paint ball tank. So easy and so inexpensive to shoot, Rich in Mich was able to build these with no problem. Why can’t Crosman?


    • Volvo,

      Hw-custom shop would be great…. would add an extra pricetag on the rifle though. But if you want to have it tuned….the weihrauch factory would be the most logical place!

      But, if weihrauch would hand pick the internals….best internals put together. …they need no tuning at al. I have a hw80/R1, and its really shoots like a tuned rifle. This rifle is a particularly hot one, its SMOOTH and stil delivers 20fp/26 joules.

      Ive just send a video to BB, but I dont want it posted here…-for privacy reasons.
      But maybe BB can tell the readers what he sees regarding accuracy and smoothness. Im sure BB will be impressed by the accuracy and smoothness of this particular hw80. And its untuned!



    • That’s surprising that HW rifles still need tuning with the prices they charge. My B30 which copies the RWS 48 was tuned by Rich from Mich to be comparable with it, but you shouldn’t need to tune the original brand name. Does anyone know what happened to Rich from Mich? He did a fabulous job tuning my rifle and was great to deal with. But even though things on the internet are supposed to last forever, I cannot find any trace of him.

      Matt61


  4. BB,

    Personally, Id like to see weihrauch building the next model:
    A hw 35 with a tyrolean stock, a worked-over record trigger and runningat approximately 9-10 foot pounds. They should use super tight tollerances for the internals. The hw 35 has that bigger piston diameter (just like the hw80/R1). That wider and shorter spring gives a more laid back shot-cycle. That would be a SMOOTH shooter. The hw35 already has a barrellock.
    If they build that one, they could at least sell 3 of them: ridgerunner, twotalon and myself would buy one 🙂

    A hw30/R7 with a worked over record trigger, diopter sights and tyrolean, -or adjustable stock, would also do the job. The current hw 30 can be bought for 150 euro, but at most shops they are sold for 180 euro. I dont know the current dollar rate, but the price is a big difference with the USA.


    • Well, as far as I know HW have discontinued their peep sight!? So don’t wait to hard for that ‘HW30s Target’. Another way to reach the same goal would perhaps be a HW98 in 7.5J with added diopter sights!? t has a very nice stock already, ant that is a very important part of a good target rifle!


    • The HW35E is near the top of my short list for my next air rifle. A tyrolean might be pretty nice, but the present walnut stock is pretty nice. The power level is where I would like it to be also.

      I wish an American company would decide to build some air rifles that would compete with the Europeans.



        • G&G,

          You are absolutely right. However these two are small companies compared to the European competition and they are PCPs. Although I did not spell it out, I was referring to sproingers.

          Now as far as PCPs go, I would indeed like to have an HM1000X in .25 or maybe even .357. I would even be willing to unload my Edge and Talon SS for that.



  5. And AA should make a lightweight spring piston break barrel air rifle something like a HW50-HW95, please!?

    And HW should restyle the HW40 so that it has a grip that is more target oriented, with a shelf and proper target sights of metal. And get rid of the ugly faux ejector port and the fake slide release. Let that gun have its own identity. Its very much an adult airgun, not something you’d buy to flash around to be the coolest kid on the block.

    And Tau brno should take the Izh 651K (Kornet), and build it out of steel with bulk fill capability with a little longer barrel and Tau7 ergonomics and sights. It could be a very good indoor training gun for PPC shooters, something that is very popular in Europe with civilian shooters. I have seen pictures of prototypes from Izhmash of guns similar to this, but Tau would make it better!



  6. I still got my vote in for a 1000 psi or less pcp gun.

    And would love to see a pcp powered Mosin Nagant.

    And here’s one to throw you for a loop. I would like to see somebody produce a pcp powered Ruger 10/22 replica. And use the same type of magazine that resembles the Ruger 10/22 magazine but it accepts pellets. I bet Crosman could convert a 1077 to look like a 10/22 pretty easy. Then turn it into a pcp. I would buy that gun just for the fact of having a modern gun replicated.

    I know, I know the moves getting to me already. That’s what happens when I get tired. Weird ideas pop up.






      • Well yes.. I have owned three gamatics and one expomatic now and they all worked very well*.

        *With shorter pellets. Round balls always work and give quite good accuracy. Flatheads will work, I mainly used rws basics. And the shorter premiers light in the brown box also worked very well. Also a pellet named Apache from norica worked. I have not tried that many but it is not true that pellet choice is limited to only a few.

        If you ever want to borrow one for say a blog test let me know 😉

        Carel


      • BB,
        Sorry to be disagreeing with you so often. But I recently acquired a Gamatic. That rifle is old but works fine. I wonder why it is not made anymore. RWS Hobbys shoot fine in mine. Great rifle and a keeper. Thanks Carel!


  7. An upgraded “target” HW-30S sounds like a great idea. Personally I would love a target style stock like the HW-55 to be part of the specification though I suspect that may require too much money up front to bring in to production and could result in a price too high to sell well. I find the match type stocks wonderfully comfortable and would be willing to spend the cash to get one but I realize I probably wouldn’t be in the majority on that. A peep sight like the one that used to be available through Beeman which is finger adjustable for elevation and windage would be fine with me. As far as I can tell the only version of that sight still available needs a screwdriver to adjust.


  8. While Weihrauch have the HW98 target rifle I can’t see them making a new HW55, remember in the UK market its 12fpe and in the home market it’s 6fpe, in the latter case making it all but recoilless…there’s a few out there sporting peep sights and a front globe conversions
    Unfortunately the Diana is not a simple conversion to 12fpe because of the swept volume, Diana sell zero to the home market and the UK one is restricted by both the spring and a horrible TP washer that gives it a peculiar “double bump” recoil, there’s a guy over here who sleeves them to 25mm fits a Walther LGV piston and shortens the stroke (Airguntech) making it a rifle far surpassing the shooting behaviour of a TX
    For factory purposes they would have to simply drop spring strength slightly and lengthen the cocking rod by an inch.
    As for lightening, there’s not that much meat actually in the stock and the barrel shroud weighs next to nothing, however Diana do make a lighter synthetic stock for the home market.
    Want a better T06?, then blow the dust off the T01 tooling, it might be complex but it’s a better unit.
    To be fair, on paper, down range, my 1985 D52 will match any TX in any way, even your 23 fpe version will stand in the same company, which is pretty remarkable really when you think about it.
    Weight is of course, part of it’s accuracy, many of the hold sensetive rifles would cease to be so with the addition of another 3 pounds, the TX is definitely no nymph 🙂


  9. I just wish someone would make a rear sporting site for springers that would accept an adjustable iris. Having to use the flimsy Williams versions with an adapter is unacceptable for me. I have a used one coming from Europe that wasn’t cheap, but it’s a quality part. I believe there is a viable market for an item like this.



      • Yes, the rear sight I have coming from Europe is a used Anschutz, and I just received a new Anschutz adjustable iris I ordered to go with it. I just wish that these sporting sights were still being produced so we don’t have to scrounge to find decent used items.


  10. There’s a lot of rifle swapping up at the club, and every time I shoot a shiny new LGU or TX I wonder what happened to 40 years development, and the,slightly crestfallen, owners, having chortled at the ugly duckling looks (don’t see many over here) hand my 177 52 back with a mumbled “pretty accurate innit”
    I try to be gracious at this point 🙂


    • Dom,

      I’m thinking a lower power 48/52 with a better scope mount and updated stock would be a nice addition to the Diana line. Maybe the T06 is not quite up to the Rekord trigger or the TX trigger but neither is the LGU’s trigger.

      David


  11. BB,

    I was recently just reading about Hector calming down 54s for field target. Your idea for a lighter, calmer 48 would likely sell well.

    Crosman should consider a premier line as Diana is now doing. They should expand their custom shop to allow a customer the opportunity to buy what he really wants. It would be kind of nice to order a Marauder or a NP2 with a nice walnut sporter stock. Their are quite a few guys who buy HWs and such and then spend $500+ dollars for a custom stock.

    I also suspect that if they put a lighter gas spring in the NP2, it would greatly improve the performance. The Vortex gas spring in the Hatsans can be adjusted and I am starting to hear good things about them.

    I am in the market for a nice sproinger, whether gas or metal, for small game and serious plinking. Right now I have to look to Europe for what I want. The Crosman marketing department needs to look beyond the quick sell to the inexperienced. They are missing out on some serious money.


    • Ridgerunner:
      Hw80 in .22!!! Feed them H&N ftt. If you want .177, feed em baracuda match (I believe you call em beeman kodiak)

      I hope BB will refect on the hw 80 video I send him.



        • Yeahh… but the hw80 gave all the help I needed. As you could see….a very nice and controlled recoil/report from the rifle. Its extremely accurate and smooth to shoot. At that distance….kneeling….a few millimeters off the target…it takes a hell of a rifle to accomplish that


      • The HW80 is under consideration. I am also thinking of the HW35E, a real well dressed classic. A few others on the short list:

        TX200 MK3
        Walther LGU
        Walther LGV
        Diana 34
        Diana 340 N-Tech Luxus

        I am wanting to go with .22 as I have a couple .177 and I do use FTT and Baracuda Match.

        See, this is what I am talking about. The US companies are only starting to approach the Diana 34 level, which I consider the European entry level air rifle. Their business model is all wrong. They are concerned with the sale of large numbers. I am certain that Weirauch and the others want large volume sales also, they have a different mindset. They are thinking long haul. Weirauch is still family owned. As the company is handed down to the next generation, they want their air rifles and pistols to be handed down to the next generation, not tossed in the landfill because it has worn out after a bit.

        As I understand it, the European mindset is that they will likely only own one air rifle, so they want it to be of excellent quality, no matter what the cost. Unlike most Americans, I lean toward that way of thinking. I do not have a closet full of airguns and have no intention of such.

        When all is said and done, I will likely have two PCP rifles, two sproinger rifles, a BB gun and my Izzy 46M. That list is just about complete now. I have an Edge and a Talon SS, although these may end up being swapped out in the future. I have my Izzy and this week I picked up a real nice Daisy 99. Hanging on the wall is a 1906 BSA.

        That leaves one spot for a nice sproinger. It will have to be a real performer to fill that slot and look good while it is doing it.

        I will likely still fool around with the occasional rebuild project, but it will likely move on after that.


        • Ridgerunner,
          The hw35e is a timeless classic, no mather what! It has a few things going for it:
          Barrel lock
          That huge piston diameter
          Short bulky spring (smooth report/cycle)
          The looks and feel
          And of course. …its a weihrauch.

          You can use it as you 10m Olympic air rifle, you can use it as your backyard hunter, and can be used for plinking. It will probably do well in the FT springerclass.
          You mentioned you want a .22. Well…. personally I think the hw35 runs best when you have a .177 barrel. Springer wise, only the hw 80 and the hw90 (beeman rx) preform best with a .22 barrel. The 90 is a gasram WITHOUT the record trigger.

          From the other options you mentioned, Id pick the lgv, breakbarrel-convenience and it has a barrel lock.


          • Dutchjozef,

            I know that the 35 is not a powerhouse, but it fits my taste pretty good. I am afraid the 90 is out of the question. I am not sold on the gas spring thing, having had one slap me side the head repeatedly. Also, I hear it is very pellet picky and very hold sensitive.

            I figure if the Brits can hunt with less than 12FPE, I might be able to manage with a little more. If I need more than that, I have other options like a Talon SS with a .25 barrel.

            LGV? Very tempting. I have heard nothing but great things about it’s brother the LGU also. We will see when the time comes.




            • RidgeRunner,

              How’s that saying go,…..”You can have it, when you pry it from my cold, dead hands”. 😉

              What I was saying was in regards to your “short list”. I thought you might be interested in some (actual) chrony/pellet data to see if the TX fills your need.
              I have not seen much published.

              Chris

              P.S….I like your philosophy on purchasing quality and not having a closet full of air guns.


              • OK, I’m with you.

                I have been researching the TX and everything else on that list for some time now. That is why they are on the list. Do note that the TX is at the top. The HW35 would slide in just barely below it. Assuming I can amass the small fortune it will take, I would like to have a TX200 MK3 in .22 with a walnut stock and likely top it off with a Hawke.

                We will see when the time comes which one wins out. Who knows, a great deal on a FWB Sport might come along at the time.


  12. BB,

    You have certainly opened the proverbial can of worms this time, LOL! Now everybody is going to spend all weekend expounding on their dream air rifle or pistol. Maybe the link to this blog entry should be forwarded to the marketing departments of the various airgun companies. 😉



      • Hello,
        I registered so now I can finally participate. I purchased my own HW30S from Pyramyd Air in 2014. Today I added an adjustable Butt Plate with a Butt Hook (easy to do). I will be reinstalling my Daisy/Gamo Front Diopter and Adj. Micrometer rear sights once again. So far the accuracy is improving. I will wait until the spring settle down and gets used to the different balance and vibration nodes before I really get serious about accuracy. The weight did shift towards the rear and it is a little heavier now. This takes away from the fun just a tad. The Daisy sights are lightweight and good enough for practice so I will add them soon. The only adjustments I can’t do is to inlet an Anschutz Accessory Rail to add a proper 3 position sling and hand stop. I may be able to adapt the simple sling from my Avanti Daisy 753 Pneumatic Air Rifle.
        I enjoy shooting springer air rifles so much more than my PCP and Single Stroke Pneumatics and even Co2. Because springers kick and hence to me they feel more alive and also as everyone says they are more challenging than PCP and Pneumatics and Co2.
        I was an Engineer so I am not a rich man. I have been building up my air gun arsenal slowly since 1992 when I first purchased the Daisy/Avanti 753 single stroke Pneumatic air rifle and Daisy 777 Single stroke air pistol (last year I blew the seal on the 777-my fault as I over adjusted the stroke handle set point) Untill then I loved my 777. Then, these were followed by the Crosman Challenger 2000 C02 Competition Air Rifle and IZH 46M Pneumatic air pistol all back in 1992 and 1993. Then around 2011 I purchased the Russian Made IZH Baikal MP-532 Pneumatic air rifle (very accurate). Followed by the IZH MP-53M Spring Pistol (difficult to shoot well but I’m learning). I gave in and last year I purchased a Crosman Challenger 2009 PCP air rifle and also another new Benjamin 397 (I have and cherish an older Benjamin 392 and my son has the original 397 as his own).
        I have to say in my hands (and I am an NRA Ranked Marksman having participated in 1992-1993 in a State wide NRA Official Competition for Smallbore .22 cal rifle using my modified Winchester 52B. I was unranked but came in First Place in the competition with a score of 480 ‘ish and was presented with a “Marksman” Medal. I know I’m at the very bottom of the rung in the ladder to NRA Official Marksmanship because there are 17 rungs) Still I am very proud of my Medal. Anyway, to finish my comment. The HW30S can be set up for official 10M Competition and in the right hands would do very well. For me because of recent injuries I could not imagine myself shooting in the kneeling position with much luck. I may be able to pull of the prone position. Still I would be seen as wriggling around on the floor every time I cocked the barrel of my springer whilst everyone else would simply be loading a pellet into the PCP pellet port. But a healthier man might do very well. For these reasons I say yes go ahead and modify your HW30S for Official 10M competition. Out of all the current springer rifles out there I think the HW30S with it’s FPS around 560-580 is the only stock air rifle that fits into the Olympic 10M shooting FPS specification.
        One day I may go ahead and purchase a fine quality German Olympic PCP in the $4,500 range. I may and/or I may not. I’m 65 and am disabled and I do not think I could shoot a 10lb + air rifle in a long match. The smaller and lighter HW30S is more realistic for me. My modified Winchester 52B with Red Field “Olympic”sights weighs in at 14 lbs so I have some experience with a heavily Olympic Style rifle. The long barrel and the heavy weight adds to the stability, but one must be physically strong enough to hold it for an entire match.
        -Peter


        • Here I go replying to myself as a way to make a correction. When I wrote that I came in First Place in an Official NRA Smallbore Competition I should have added “First Place for unranked shooters”, 480 is not that good of a score and I am sure many shooters scored higher than I.
          Lastly, my concern in modifying my HW30S is that as it came from the factory not only was it accurate and lightweight with mild recoil but it was fun to shoot for these same reasons. Modifying for 10M will add some weight and Competition is more work than it is fun. But still I respect B.B.’s original contention that this air rifle could be made into an even better shooter. I will continue to modify and shoot my HW30S just to see if it’s the most accurate out of all my air rifles as described above. I suspect that it may very well be the champion of my small arsenal.


        • Here I go replying to myself as a way to make a correction. When I wrote that I came in First Place in an Official NRA Smallbore Competition I should have added “First Place for unranked shooters”, 480 is not that good of a score and I am sure many shooters scored higher than I.
          Lastly, my concern in modifying my HW30S is that as it came from the factory not only was it accurate and lightweight with mild recoil but it was fun to shoot for these same reasons. Modifying for 10M will add some weight and Competition is more work than it is fun. But still I respect B.B.’s original contention that this air rifle could be made into an even better shooter. I will continue to modify and shoot my HW30S just to see if it’s the most accurate out of all my air rifles as described above. I suspect that it may very well be the champion of my small arsenal.



          • Thanks for your reply B.B. In my opinion you are the most helpful shooter on the planet. Besides your “artillery hold” for springer air rifles, I learned how to shoot my 1911 .45 acp Cold Gold Cup Trophy National Match accurately by reading your story about how the Col. explained to you how he shoots a standard armory issued 1911 .45 acp using only the middle finger and trigger finger to hold the pistol and relaxing his grip and all the other fingers. It works for me too! But sometimes I limp wrist it and that causes a misfire, but I’ working on it. BTW last night I added the Daisy rear adjustable micrometer peep sight to my HW30S and the result was the smallest group in over a year. The aluminum butt plate and aluminum butt hook that I had added yesterday added some weight and length to my HW30S and this made an improvement in the balance and stability. Now I relax my trigger hand completely and only pull back the trigger to make the shot, the HW30S remains very stable during the entire process. I am excited to say the least. For kneeling and prone shooting positions I think I could inlet an Anschutz accessory rail to add a hand stop and match grade strap if I really wanted too. If it’s legal I may add some weight to the rifle and an offhand palm support. I just like accuracy and easy shooting characteristics of the HW30S springer air rifle so much that it inspires me to shoot all the time. I can cock it for hours and hours without strain and that’s good because I am 65 and have serious health issues that cause me to be weaker than otherwise. I would think that all this is the highest criteria of a standard regular production air rifle and Weihrauch should be congratulated! I keep my dream of being an Olympic 10 M air rifle shooter alive with this HW30S. Lastly all the past blogs that you wrote about the HW30S and other fine Olympic style springer air rifles was my primary education that helped me to determine my needs for a springer air rifle. I have several books on competitive NRA shooting and they have provided me with the basics, the knowledge you passed on took me beyond the basics in regard to springer air rifle accuracy and precision. What a wonderful hobby shooting sport is and it is life enriching and anyone can do it, and do it for as many years as they wish. The physical changes that come with age can be compensated for through experience and knowledge. Few sports allow for that. -Peter


            • peter,

              I’ll let you in on a little secret. A few weeks ago someone asked about a nice used 10 meter target pistol and when they didn’t buy it — I did. This old codger is going to start practicing his dry-firing technique again at the age of 68. Who says we have to grow up? 🙂

              B.B.


              • You are 68, and from what I can see you are in good health. I agree, we should pursue life as long as we are able and being active should add years to our lives. The physical activity as well as the feeling of accomplishment from our shooting sport will certainly bode well for living a happier more fulfilling and longer life.
                I agree that our air pistols enable us to get in quality shooting time. Once again I prefer the “spring” as the powerplant over Pneumatic, PCP or Co2. I have one of every kind but for 5 M and 10M indoor target shooting I will be using my inexpensive IZH MP-53M the most because it kicks, feels alive and requires the most discipline to shoot well. I can shoot it all day long because it is easy to cock. Maybe one day I will purchase an HW spring pistol.
                When I think about it I realize that 95% of my air guns have been purchased from Pyramid Air starting back in 1992.


  13. BB,

    Talking bout new guns
    1) a single stroke pneumatic airrifle that is easy to cock and delivers at least 12fp/16 joules. So sort of a fwb 60x series with long range capabilities for hunting and field target.

    2) an affordable pcp with build in pump. Call it the Discovery Pump.



      • StevenG

        The suggestions I made, are two different airguns
        1 a disco with build in pump
        And:
        2) a powerfull affordable accurate singel stroke pneumatic.
        So there’s no mixing up to be done.
        Id buy both of them.

        The 392 needs multiple pumps, and it pumps rather heavy. Thats not what Im looking for!


        • My replies were to each single question:
          So for question 1, you simply cannot have such a thing, it cannot exist. To make such a thing even remotely possible you would need a huge gun. So that you can have a lever with lots of mechanical advantage. No pump of that style can be efficient enough to give you 12fpe in a single stroke and still be easy to pump and cock. You would need a very large and hard to move pump lever, then a large lever or stiff cocking action to create enough force to unseat the poppet from the valve.

          My answer to 2 was that a disco is sold with a pump as a kit and if you want an MSP buy one. I do not see the advantage of combining the MSP and PCP. Now you are carrying more mass for a pump that will be a bear to use. Since no MSP pump can move the kind of volume a dedicated pump can move. I would posit this is why the FX independence does not sell that well.

          I am unsure why you have now flipped the numbers of your requests, but I am using the numbers from your first post. So question 1 relates to a 12fpe ssp and question 2 about your discovery version of the FX Independence.


          • StevenG,

            I mistakenly switched the numbers. Maybe some clever engineer can make that ssp play in a couple of years, surely I dont have the brains for that.

            The Indy is a gun Id buy…. if I had the money. I dont care about the weight…. the heavier…..the better….helps me stabilise the rifle.
            I might buy the disco in the near future. Id never buy a gun that relies on a scubatank/firestation. But again….if I had the money….Id buy a 3 stage pump, fill my own scubatanks and buy a handfull of top notch pcps 🙂



    • Dutchjozef,

      Before Webley went belly up, they came out with a prototype 12FPE SSP that was awesome. Unfortunately it seemed to have a fairly substantial cocking effort, it was probably a bit too complicated, came too late to save the company and although I did not hear about such, I think a few of the people testing it may have received a nasty pinch or two.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGKkL7vxy4

      Quite a shame. I was wanting to add this one to my collection.



      • RR,

        Wow! That really was a good-looking airgun! It’s way better than the Parker-Hale Paradigm that proceeded it. And the number of steps to cock and prime the gun seem reduced by half.

        I hope another company looks at that design. Daystate?

        let’s hope.

        B.B.


        • BB,

          Oh yeah, it is gorgeous! But like I said, I think the action may have been a bit too complicated. From what I understand when you cock it, you not only compress a quantity of air, but you also cock a spring loaded piston. When you fire it the piston further compresses the air as the valve opens, giving it a little more oomph. I can well imagine that this action is not cheap to build and could present some maintenance issues. K.I.S.S.

          If it ever does come out, I will give it very serious consideration, after I see it on the market for a few years and see how it holds up. 😉


  14. How about Croman making a repeating CO2 bulk fill gun like the Shark pump gun repeater in .22RB you reviewed in Shotgun News a few years ago? Maybe change the caliber ,(maybe bigger in .25, or different in .20 cal RB?),stick to RB, and call it a modern Benji 3225, or 20.Use the Discovery platform and a magazine for the RB like they make in Europe for the QB-78. Or, Hatsan should make their 250XR Boss bb pistol a single shot PELLET gun in .22, and give us a modern rentition of the Crosman Mk 1 pistol. Some of the other replica bb shooters would be more interesting, at least to me, if they were more than just can rollers.


    • Awesome idea! I’ve considered converting my Benji 3120 to bulkfill and eliminating the pump-arm I just need a pressure tube that’ll fit into the pump tube,I envisioned a quick release fitting poking outta the pumparm slot.


  15. The comment about good triggers selling guns struck a nerve here! The inverse of that is also true.

    Trying to sell guns with bad triggers can ruin a company’s reputation as well as turn people completely away from our sport/hobby.

    Reb


  16. How about an inexpensive PCP kit including pump ,hose and connection fittings?
    I’m trying to figure out how to get my new 2400kt set up for bulkfilling without having to blow a whole paycheck on it,after all I’m doing it to lower the cost of shooting it and increase shotcount but if I could find an inexpensive way to eliminate co2 all together I’d jump over to the dark side in a flash!


  17. Maybe we are looking at this backwards. Create a need and they will fill it. Make a popular shooting game especially for the very young and old so that the power required in a spring gun is limited. Limit it to backyard ranges 10-25 yards. Put a price cap on the airgun that can be used. Make a peep sight a requirement. No scopes allowed. Then the manufacturer’s will build a gun that can sweep the matches.

    A semiautomatic CO2 with a light trigger could probably be made using extra gas or electricity for the feed mechanism to keep the trigger light.

    Diana’s Marketing needs to go out in the field so that they can build airgun’s that are wanted and needed.

    The Liberator would probably be made in engineering plastic for the barrel firing a single muzzle loaded BB. On the other hand a gallery pistol using the Daisy 105 Buck as a basis might just be a better mare’s leg.


  18. Off topic. I recently purchased a Beeman P-1 and was practicing getting the proper hold. I remembered reading the blog on that pistol and went in search of it. It was part 3 (May 6, 2011), with the story about Col. Bonsall that was exactly what I was looking for, and was responsible for my groups with the P-1 tightening up dramatically.
    Thanks BB, that blog is priceless.


  19. B.B.,

    My list somewhat exceeds your limitations, but I wish for:

    1. Benjamin Discovery with on-board pump.

    2. Improved Diana 34 without excessive droop and scope mount stops.

    3. Traditional, made in England, Air Arms, BSA or Webley break-barrel air rifle.

    4. Made in England, all-metal Webley Hurricane/Tempest.

    RB


  20. BB–Re the HW 30S- I have 2 10m ranges, one in the basement and another in my back yard. I try to have 2 of each of my favorite air guns, to avoid lost time in moving guns from 1 range to the other. Last year I bought a Beeman R7, so I have been considering a second one. Since I want both guns to use iron and optical sights, the current R7 is not the rifle for me. Just before I ordered a 30S, my friend got one and I was able to shoot it. I can accept the current trigger, and my Gamo, Anschutz and Browning(T bolt) peep sights can be used .BUT the stock is designed for a large hand! The trigger is @ 1/4″ further forward than my R7. I did not buy the 30S and I am looking for a used R7 with a globe frontsight. I think that the 30S would not make a good youth rifle because the pistol grip is not close enough to the trigger. If any of our fellow bloggers have a 30S, and have used it as a youth rifle, I would welcome their comments. Ed


  21. Hi, i don’t know if this topic is restricted only in the US market but there is all ready a hw30s model in Europe – a lot of German on-line stores have it – that comes fitted with the standard record trigger and a rear diopter sight from the factory a little less than 200 euros. As for the Diana 48/52 i agree, less power and weight is possible without sacrificing accuracy.



      • Edith
        I have a question for you pertaining to pyramid air. Do they actually have a brick and mortar store in Solon, Ohio that I can go to and buy products or is it just a distribution center.

        I am taking a trip to St. Marys ,Ohio this coming week and Solon, Ohio is only 3 hours away and my friend and me were going to go to the store if in fact their is a brick and mortar store.

        So is their in fact an actual store that products can be bought from or is it just a distribution center with no public store front. Thank you for any info you can provide

        BD.



          • Edith
            Thank you very much as Chris,USA asked me if they had a store front and I just assumed that they did so I am glad he asked that which allowed me to know for sure before we drove 3 hours only to find out that there was no actual store.

            The little bit I would save in shipping would not warrant the 3 hours/ 200 miles out of our way and it would cost more in gas than it would save in shipping.

            Thank you Edith.

            BD




              • Edith,

                Well,… there should be one. I only live about 1 1/2 hour away and would love to hand select purchases from a showroom and ask questions to knowledgeable sales people. To feel the weight and “feel” of a rifle would be priceless !

                No doubt they would get some out of state tourism buisness as well.

                Do they have ANY plans of EVER doing this? That would be “dream store”.

                I gurrantee that it would be a 1000+$ day.

                And yes, you can forward this comment to them.

                Thanks, Chris


  22. The time is right for remaking some of the classics I would
    like to put the 600 auto at the top of the list.Benjamin also made
    an auto pistol in.22,It had power but the gun would jam a lot.
    I think a clone of the 600 would blow the market wide open if the gun
    was a close copy of the the original.


  23. BB

    The demand for high quality airguns and accessories is insane. I just bought a Talon SS based on your outstanding reviews of the air rifle over the years. However, it’s a challenge finding accessories that are in stock anywhere on the internet.

    I also have an RWS model 34. I purchased the rifle with a scope from RWS. I just had to send the scope and rear sight back to Uramex for repairs. The rear lens assembly came apart and I couldn’t figure out how the lens and o-ring assembly fit together so I sent it along with the rear sight in for repairs. The spring on the rear sight isn’t stiff enough to keep the elevation adjustment screw from staying in place.

    In line with your article, I would like to see more springers developed with the recoiless system like the RWS model 54. My next rifle will probably be an RWS model 54. I’m kind of put off by the heavy weight compared to my Talon SS. I agree with you. Develop lighter springers.

    Any recommendations on scopes to use with springers that won’t come apart from the recoil?

    Thanks as always BB. I look forward to reading your articles along with the forum comments each day.


  24. I never understand why the German air rifle feel so bulky or fat. So far, only the HW100T stock feels like what BB described about a modified Diana 48…”Do that by slimming the stock to a more classic profile — slimmer pistol grip, slimmer forearm, and a slimmer butt that has an adjustable cheekpiece.”

    Perhaps we think of airgun as a toy mainly for kids and the Germans don’t. Crosman and Daisy both make their airguns with smaller and slimmer profile which feels good in my hands.


    • Is the slimmer stock necessarily good? Maybe for carrying but not necessarily for shooting. My Anschutz target rifle has a fat hand-filling feel that is just about perfect. And the stock on my B30 copy of the RWS 48 stabilizes the gun.

      Matt61


    • Hello, about 50 years ago, when I was quite young, I owned a number of Crosman 760’s, the “wooden” ones. Anyway, I sent Crosman a “detailed” drawing and design of my idea… A Crosman 760 type rifle that closely copies the Winchester 1894 (the way the Walther Rifle does). A single, simple lever stroke would “load” a BB utilizing a “magnetic” feed and the pump portion is self explanatory, it would mimic the Winchester precisely… Every one of my friends at that time would love that style rifle as I’m sure they would today. I exchanged a number of letters and design specs with Crosman. My day was so freakin’ proud as I was only 8 or so. I eventually received the “our product line is overwhelmed…” response from Crosman leading them to drop the idea. Ironically, The Crosman “Rawhide” was produced 6,8 months later. Don’t know what happened to that rifle. Anyway, I thought and still think that idea is a “winner” providing real wood” is utilized in the production. My friends at that time were so psyched of my Crosman exchange and I think today’s youth would be equally excited about that design/gun. Simple idea that Crosman could utilize to produce and sell millions. Whatta you enthusiasts think? Thanks for reading this “novel”….. Best Regards, Tom Kurpiewski


      • Tom,

        Welcome to the blog.

        This was one of the most popular reports I have written this year. People like you are still posting to it, which shows there is a need to communicate to the airgun manufacturers.

        Thanks,

        B.B.


      • Tom,
        Thanks for sharing your experience with us. It is good to know that Crosman is open-minded enough to look at an airgun design from someone that they don’t know at all. I hope crosman will continue to be that way.

        BTW – which Crosman dept did you sent your design to?


  25. B.B.,

    I’ve made the case many times before for a MAC 10 based on the UZI platform. It would sell like CRAZY.

    But I have another desire, one for a low-powered, plinking/target oriented PCP. Instead, all PCPs are hunting-oriented. As a result, they require air pressures above 2000psi and are a chore to fill. Either pump until you drop or drive six hours round trip to fill an outrageously priced SCBA tank that has an expiration date. I have two Marauders and a Hill pump that I used only a handful of times in the quite long time I’ve owned them.

    Yep, I went to the “dark side” and came back. I simply haven’t sold the equipment yet, but I am essentially a former PCP user. That would change if someone came out with a PCP equivalent of the HW30. I would jump at an easy-to-fill, low-powered, accurate PCP with a nice trigger. So far, however, going PCP is too expensive and too much effort.

    Michael


  26. Dag– The rifle looks just like my friends HW 30S with my Gamo rear sight on it. I would have one just like it if my trigger finger were longer, or if the pistol grip was closer to the trigger. Ed



    • Ed,

      I see a Google translate button at the top of that page. I clicked it, and it says this:

      “Attractive air rifle for entry into the shooting club. Lightweight, handy design with good accuracy for the whole family. Automatic safety, match type trigger, tunnel, height and tilt adjustable micrometer rear sight and rear sight, beechwood stock with cheek piece and butt plate factory default iron sights, peep sight is and is mounted in a minute.”

      Edith


      • I had contact with waffen schneider two months ago. The diopter are plain jane cheapo gamo diopter sights. Theyre fine for plinking. Its no like they come off the factory like that…. weihrauch surely would havd added other sights


      • Pretty good translation, except for one detail:

        It says “match-ähnlicher Abzug” which means “similar to match trigger” and that is how the Rekord is commonly described.

        @BB: Is there anything special about the HW30S that the HW35 doesn’t have? The HW35 has the exchangeable front sight inserts and the stock seems to have a fine size for adults. The firing cycle is pretty calm. Why not put a diopter sight and matching front insert on it and be done?

        But then, I haven’t shot a HW30S, so I can’t compare.



    • Joe,

      Actually, people remove the barrel jacket to improve the accuracy. It seems to vibrate randomly and cause larger groups than just the barrel by itself. One that is fixed solid doesn’t seem to be a problem, though.

      B.B.


      • BB,
        Your answer surprised me. If what you said is true, Dianawerk must remove that barrel sleeve from their model 48/52, but they are not. I have a Diana 54 instead of the model 48. Does Diana 54 has a removable barrel sleeve also? If yes, please give me a clue as to how to remove it. I like to check out what you said, thanks.


        • Joe,

          Here is a saying to remember.

          “Never trouble trouble, ’til trouble troubles you.

          The simple way to say that is, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

          If you are unaware that your 54 has a barrel sleeve, then your is so tight that it isn’t a problem.

          B.B.


  27. What ?,….no “Cowboy” lever action lovers out there?

    Brass, octagon, repeater, springer or maybe even PCP?

    Just sayin’,….since we are all dreaming here. 😉

    Chris


  28. I think it is possible that the best discoveries are made by repurposing rather than creating from scratch. McDonald’s takes a hamburger, a kind of marginal snack food, and revolutionizes eating habits around what is fast and convenient. I’ve heard without being able to verify that some insignificant aircraft part was used as the basis for some very popular kind of swivel for rifle sling manufactured by Browning. A Doomsday technology for communication after a nuclear strike becomes the basis of the internet and the airgun blog! Ruger’s 10/44 carbine doesn’t amount to much, but rechambered for a rimfire cartridge it becomes an icon. It all seems to be a case of leveraging instead of applying brute force.

    So, tweaking current designs in a calculated way has a strong foundation. On the other hand, finding a new niche within some very well-traveled ground is not easy. Consider, the fate of the 6.8mm SPC and 6.5 Grendel. Military rifles cry out for something in between the 5.56 and the .308. The 7.62X39 has been a huge success. You would think that occupying that niche with a ballistically superior cartridge would be a sure bet, but apparently not. It seems like people would rather upgrade all the way to .308 rather than try the new cartridge. Marketing seems very chancy.

    The HW30 is one of my favorite rifles that I have considered buying on and off through the years. It seems that a lot of the attraction comes for the extremely high quality in spite of the price. But are people going to pay even a bit more for target modifications? Why do that when an equally high quality spring target rifle did not succeed? For the RWS 48, I thought it was already a viable target rifle. If someone is serious enough to upgrade, why would they go with an improved 48 when they can go all the way to an RWS 54 that doesn’t have recoil or a TX 200, the acknowledged king of field target spring guns?

    As for the Liberty gun, I have my doubts. I gather that one big appeal of replica military guns is that they look cool, and this looks anything but. Were you just supposed to keep shooting the gun until it blew up in your hand?

    But I do have my own idea to be shot down too. It all hinges on how much air can be compressed. Water is an incompressible medium. Air is not as evidenced by the fact that we can compress it into smaller containers under high pressure. But have we reached the physical limit? What if you could create a process to put air under even more pressure in a smaller space? That would need more expensive technology than a consumer could afford, but the way to slash costs is by manufacturing in bulk. Maybe you could gear up to manufacture bottles of compressed air little bigger than the rotary magazines for the 10/22. People could wear them in bandoleers and keep their pcps going all day without need for a pump or a scuba tank. Recycling your little bottles would give you a rebate on fresh ones. B.B. mentioned some time ago that this niche was filled by the Air Force guns, but this would be pushing the process to make the bottles smaller and more replaceable. But this would have its risk, the foremost one being safety. You wouldn’t want to be around if one of the bottles exploded.

    Wulfraed, you are right that the curve of a drooped bore wouldn’t affect the exit angle just as the a bb’s flight is determined by the final bounce out of the barrel and not the ones that came before. But while the curve of the bore has nothing to do with a projectile’s flight path, it has everything to do with the manufacturing process which is at the heart of the mystery. How could people make bores precise enough to shoot the MOA groups that are so common without knowing or caring if they are straight? There was a blog post a long time ago about curved rifle barrels. One way to get these is to load your breakbarrel and fire the gun causing the mechanism to snap close. The rapid deceleration would cause the barrel to curve up. This looks ridiculous among other things, and no one would think of using a rifle like that. Much of this blog was about how to straighten the barrel. But the drooped bore phenomenon indicates that we are walking around with bores like that hidden inside of apparently straight barrels. Scandalous!

    Also a straight line is a simpler shape than a curve. Wouldn’t it actually be easier to make your bores straight than curved?

    That’s an interesting phenomenon about the slow and heavy recoiling rifles that pull your bore off target before the projectile leaves the muzzle. But could there really be such a thing? I would think that the more powerful your cartridge, the faster it leaves your muzzle, so that your phenomenon would never really happen. Recoil is a reaction to the cartridge ignition and to imagine recoil outracing the bullet as it flies down the barrel seems to potentially defy the Third Law of Motion.

    Interesting to think of how a bore laser would fare in a drooped barrel since a laser is light that is designed to be perfectly straight at the level of light waves. Yet, it can exit the end of a drooped bore. Have we succeeded in bending light? Probably not and the laser is just reflecting itself successively down the bore.

    The pinning of barrels into receivers eliminates the rotation of screwing barrels into place. But it doesn’t explain the mystery of how bores that deviate from the barrel axis, presumably by accident, all end up pointing downward in the final product.

    Matt61


    • Matt,

      The Liberator was a concept gun. It cost the government $1.98 for each one, boxed with pictographic instructions and a wooden dowel to press out the fired cartridges. The idea was to use the gun once to kill an enemy and take their weapon.

      I used to own one, but I never worked up the nerve to shoot it. Good thing, too, because I have read that they typically don’t last for more than a few shots before the welds break.

      You should read the history of this gun. It reads like a spy thriller!

      B.B.


    • But I do have my own idea to be shot down too. It all hinges on how much air can be compressed. Water is an incompressible medium. Air is not as evidenced by the fact that we can compress it into smaller containers under high pressure. But have we reached the physical limit? What if you could create a process to put air under even more pressure in a smaller space?

      It might eventually liquify — after all, that’s what a CO2 cartridge is! (pure) CO2 pressurized to the equilibrium point between liquid and gaseous form. Fortunately there isn’t that much CO2 in atmosphere (0.04%) or we’d have droplets forming inside the reservoirs as we cross the 900PSI range or so.

      Though O2 won’t liquify above -119degC (where it happens at 50atmosphere). Best I’ve seen for N2 is that it would take 45000PSI to liquify at room temperature.

      manufacture bottles of compressed air little bigger than the rotary magazines for the 10/22.

      Problem is you can’t transport them commercially. They’d have to be charged by a local facility, and building those is going to be costly.

      Wulfraed, you are right that the curve of a drooped bore wouldn’t affect the exit angle just as the a bb’s flight is determined by the final bounce out of the barrel and not the ones that came before. But while the curve of the bore has nothing to do with a projectile’s flight path, it has everything to do with the manufacturing process which is at the heart of the mystery. How could people make bores precise enough to shoot the MOA groups that are so common without knowing or caring if they are straight?

      MOA groups relies solely on repeatability — precision, not accuracy (accuracy is hitting the point of aim — a rifle that produces 10″ groups centered on the PoA is “accurate” but not “precise”; one that produces 1″ groups 10″ from the PoA is “precise” but not “accurate”… Thing is, the latter can be corrected for by adjusting the sights, the former has no remedy).

      But the drooped bore phenomenon indicates that we are walking around with bores like that hidden inside of apparently straight barrels. Scandalous!

      In the case of a break-barrel, I strongly believe /some/ of that effect is just due to the locking system and seals pushing the barrel forward/down from the receiver. For other airguns using pressure fit barrels, it may just be a facet of the equipment used — especially if it fits more than one model. You are talking about some sort of ram that has to push the barrel into the block while not applying enough force to bend the barrel.

      Also a straight line is a simpler shape than a curve. Wouldn’t it actually be easier to make your bores straight than curved?

      Take a 2 foot section of plastic rod, about the diameter of a BIC pen. Stick that into the chuck of a drill. Now bring the drill up to speed and watch the far end of the rod flex way out of line.

      Okay, put a bushing or bearing at the far end and hold that steady — likely the rod will be flexing in the middle.

      Now take a cutting bit and hold it against the end of the rod while it is spinning — and try to maintain it as it cuts into the 2 foot length. That’s basically how (firearm) barrels are made. Cheaper airgun barrels may be made from seamless drawn tubing.

      Maybe spend some time pounding the stock to straighten the inside (at which point you now start rifling it)

      Finally chuck both ends into a lathe and shape the outside of the barrel.

      That’s an interesting phenomenon about the slow and heavy recoiling rifles that pull your bore off target before the projectile leaves the muzzle. But could there really be such a thing?

      First, the bore starts “off target” (it’s pointing below the point of aim), and the recoil is what brings it up to the point of aim as the bullet leaves the barrel.

      I would think that the more powerful your cartridge, the faster it leaves your muzzle, so that your phenomenon would never really happen. Recoil is a reaction to the cartridge ignition and to imagine recoil outracing the bullet as it flies down the barrel seems to potentially defy the Third Law of Motion.

      Recoil is NOT a reaction to the IGNITION. It occurs as long as /something/ is moving in the firearm — the bullet moves one way and the gun moves the other. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the remaining gases don’t have enough mass to be noticeable. Also, firearms have industry standard pressure limits based on the cartridge. Using a light bullet with max pressure requires a fast powder, as the it does accelerate the bullet to high speed. Trade the bullet for a much heavier one and one has to use a slower burning powder to keep the pressure the same, because the bullet accelerates slower, giving more time for the recoil to act.

      For pistols, going to a light/fast bullet typically causes them to “shoot low” relative to what the sights were regulated for.

      A 4″ barrel with a heavy bullet at 900fps muzzle velocity means average velocity of 450fps took 0.74msec during which the gun is recoiling. Go to a light bullet running 1200fps (average 600) takes 0.55msec.

      Interesting to think of how a bore laser would fare in a drooped barrel since a laser is light that is designed to be perfectly straight at the level of light waves.

      Most bore sighting lasers actually slide in on the muzzle end, so only reflect the exit trajectory. There are some, for the larger calibers, used as training rounds, which fit in “cartridges” and flash when the “primer” (switch) is hit by the firing pin.

      Yet, it can exit the end of a drooped bore. Have we succeeded in bending light? Probably not and the laser is just reflecting itself successively down the bore.

      Neither — as far as that laser is concerned, the path from chamber to muzzle does not deviate enough to matter. It is effectively straight — it may not be colinear with the outside of the barrel but it is straight.

      But it doesn’t explain the mystery of how bores that deviate from the barrel axis, presumably by accident, all end up pointing downward in the final product.

      I’ve not seen enough to vouch for that statement. As mentioned early, for a breakbarrel, some of the effect is no doubt just due to the hinge/seal pushing the unit downward. Some may be due to the assembly jigs the press fit barrels to barrel blocks (My Marlin Glenfield 60c has a VISIBLE jog to the left — so much that the stock inletting is thinner on one side than the other to allow for the barrel to drop into it).

      As soon as you put a sight of any type on a gun, you now have to account for needing to deliberately set them to angle the sight line to intersect the trajectory at some distance. The faster (hence flatter) the trajectory, and the farther the intersection (zero) point, the less angular difference one has to account for. Open (iron) sights are seldom more than a half inch from the bore line; big objective scopes will be 2 or more inches above (I need to remeasure, but I think my Condor scope is closer to 3.5″ above).

      The Leupold VX-2 3-9×40 specs claim a 52moa elevation range. That makes for 26moa adjustment in the “up” from center. On a rifle with a 200 yard zero (probably on the short side for most rifles) with, say, 2″ height from bore, and ignoring trajectory (plain right triangle laws) arctan (2″ / 7200″) is 0.95arcmin of “droop” — Now, if the cartridge ballistics is such that it has 12″ of drop (from true horizontal at the muzzle), that makes ANOTHER 5.73 arcmin of elevation… Call it 7 arcmin, or 1/4 of the available elevation adjustment even for an ideal gun (the scope and bore are perfectly parallel).

      Now, let’s mount that scope on a much slower and less aerodynamic pellet gun — one that still has a 12″ drop from horizontal, but at 30 yards. Arctan(2 / 1080) gives 6.36 arcmin adjustment for the triangle, and an additional 38.19 arcmin for trajectory. That’s a total of over 44 arcmin, on a scope that only provides 26 arcmin adjustment in that direction.

      Again, this is for an ideal rig, scope and bore are parallel. Even if the pellet only drops 6 inches (from horizontal) in 30 yards, you are still using 25 arcmin of scope adjustment merely to zero this gun.

      Now, that is an extreme (Chairgun won’t let me set a zero of 0yards, with a scope at 0″; closest zero is 10 yards). .177 Baracuda at 850fps (my Marauder) drop 2″ at 30 yards… Guess what, that with the 2″ scope height, makes for a 4″ total, and a 12.7 arcmin adjustment — half the available range of the scope.

      No real need to blame a “drooping barrel”. If anything, one could blame the makers of rings and mounts for not making “short range compensation” sets. Rings/mounts are machined to assume scope tube parallel to bore line, which works well for firearms at long sniping ranges, but falls apart when the zero range falls under 100 yards.


      • Quite a wealth of information as usual. If CO2 retains pressure in liquid form, would the air do the same? The legal restrictions with the air bottles would only be part of the problem. The walls would have to be so thick to contain the pressure that the volume would probably not be worth it. I don’t know that you could cram in enough air to outrace the thickness of walls you would need.

        Yes, MOA depends on repeatability but surely that has something to do with the quality of the whole barrel and not the final inch or so that determines the exit trajectory. Or why the heck do elite barrel makers even bother. Choking the barrel can do a lot, but surely it cannot make up for all the rest of it. And I would expect that a curve of any degree in the barrel would impart destabilizing forces to the projectile once it leaves the barrel that are not consistent with accuracy.

        I have to differ with you on what causes recoil. Indeed the opposite motion of bullet and gun play a role with the conservation of momentum. But to ascribe recoil only to that neglects the chemical force of the explosion compared to which the momentum is insignificant. Here, I’m calling the expanding gases a continuous phenomenon from the instant of ignition. On the other hand, I will retract my statement that the effect of recoil could never catch up with speeding bullet. If that were true, there would be no muzzle flip or recoil at all which is obviously not the case. The type of load does have an influence. It’s just a question of proportion. The calculations you gave are a start, but they don’t include the extraordinarily difficult and probably impossible calculations of the human interface through which force is transmitted back into the gun. However, a couple of approximations are possible. One is that the differences in recoil are all contained in the regime of follow-through which can influence a shot unless you are shooting the .577 Tyrannosaurus Rex caliber. Other than that and other freak cartridges, most loads are susceptible to some control.

        Secondly, firearms, categorically, are at a different level from blackpowder and airguns. We know this from the common knowledge that you need to hang on to your follow through longer. Whatever variations in firearms loads are developed I do believe they remain distinct from the energies in airguns and blackpowder. So the variations within a firearm cartridge would be fairly small within this picture, they definitely change point-of-impact as we commonly see. But I suspect that the effect on shooting technique is minimal.

        Interesting about the plastic rod. It certainly would create a bent bore as you describe it. But why the heck don’t they use a more rigid material, even a plastic coated metal rod if the plastic is somehow important. 🙂

        So, could drooping barrels actually be an effect of scopes with higher mounts rather actual flaws in the barrel? That would support my theory relating this phenomenon to scope development. It seems that older scopes sit lower to the bore, perhaps because they lacked the larger objectives of modern scopes. Would higher scopes have the same effect on trajectory as a drooped bore? It seems like it should be possible to answer that question geometrically. While the answer is not clear to me, I believe the answer is yes. A higher scope requires greater elevation, and so does a drooped bore.

        Matt61


        • Quite a wealth of information as usual. If CO2 retains pressure in liquid form, would the air do the same?

          No — because “air” is a mix of molecules that condense out at different pressure/temperature points. Most of which are cryogenic levels. Ever seen the nitrogen tank used by some industries — pretty much all the exterior piping will have a layer of frost on it, and on a warm day the safety valve will be popping at regular intervals to keep the pressure level inside low enough (the sun heating the tank causes more liquid nitrogen to “bubble off”, raising the pressure to potential danger points).

          Yes, MOA depends on repeatability but surely that has something to do with the quality of the whole barrel and not the final inch or so that determines the exit trajectory. Or why the heck do elite barrel makers even bother.

          Rough spots in a bore can “snag” on a projectile; depending on the bullet composition that could lead to lead or copper build-up, causing inconsistencies in the firing cycle (less repeatability). A small section of bore with a larger than nominal diameter could cause gas bleed-by and erosion, etc.

          As that example with the coiled barrel shows, as long as the curvature is not greater than the projectile give, it doesn’t have a noticeable physical effect (though cleaning it would require using a well-trained snake).

          Choking the barrel can do a lot, but surely it cannot make up for all the rest of it. And I would expect that a curve of any degree in the barrel would impart destabilizing forces to the projectile once it leaves the barrel that are not consistent with accuracy.

          Once the projectile leaves the barrel, it can no longer be influenced by the barrel. Prior to that, rough spots in the barrel could leave scratches that affect aerodynamics (but so would an off-center core in a jacketed bullet, or an air bubble in a badly poured cast lead bullet).

          And barrels whip around a lot when a gun is fired; that’s the basis of the Browning BOSS adjustable muzzle weight — to fine tune the harmonic frequency of the barrel so the bullet leaves the muzzle when the muzzle is at the extreme of “whip”. You read correctly — the extreme, not the center. While the center of the harmonics is likely the position you see in the gun at rest, it is also the position at which the muzzle is moving around the fastest. At the extremes the muzzle is slowing to a stop and reversing back. Minor (and there will always be minor) differences in velocity of the projectile will have less effect at the extreme than in the middle.

          I have to differ with you on what causes recoil. Indeed the opposite motion of bullet and gun play a role with the conservation of momentum. But to ascribe recoil only to that neglects the chemical force of the explosion compared to which the momentum is insignificant. Here, I’m calling the expanding gases a continuous phenomenon from the instant of ignition.

          The “chemical force of the explosion” acts equally in all directions, hence canceling out (other than black powder and replacements, modern propellants do NOT “explode”, they burn at a controlled rate) — except for the amount that moves down the barrel behind the projectile; and at that point it is again the /mass/ of the leading gases being pushed by the gases behind them. Those gases don’t really have enough mass to be a significant recoil force in comparison to the mass of the bullet itself.

          http://www.wired.com/2014/02/hidden-physics-mythbusters-bullet-baloney/

          Interesting about the plastic rod. It certainly would create a bent bore as you describe it. But why the heck don’t they use a more rigid material, even a plastic coated metal rod if the plastic is somehow important. 🙂

          I used the plastic rod as a simile that you could perform in your basement. Drilling barrels tends to be done at about an inch a minute with the barrel stock spun against a carbide tipped drill. Consider the difficulties of keeping a drill bit (on a 2 foot shaft) centered on a metal rod (also 2 feet long) while spinning the rod and advancing the shaft… There’s a reason shotgun barrels used to be made by forge welding strips of steel around a mandrel…

          So, could drooping barrels actually be an effect of scopes with higher mounts rather actual flaws in the barrel? That would support my theory relating this phenomenon to scope development. It seems that older scopes sit lower to the bore, perhaps because they lacked the larger objectives of modern scopes. Would higher scopes have the same effect on trajectory as a drooped bore? It seems like it should be possible to answer that question geometrically. While the answer is not clear to me, I believe the answer is yes. A higher scope requires greater elevation, and so does a drooped bore.

          After all those math examples, I’m at the point of believing that the majority of what is being called “droop” can be blamed strictly on geometry. This is not to discount that there are sources of less that true parallelness in the configuration, namely:

          (for breakbarrels only) Receiver to barrel block tilt caused by lock-up and seal thickness (that is, the barrel block and barrel are breaking downward at the hinge). Does not affect most sporting gun open sights as front and rear are both mounted on the barrel unit, hence move with them; would affect target guns with receiver peeps.

          (for any gun with a barrel press fitted into the barrel block) Some misalignment in the press operation leaving the barrel cocked (not bent or curved!) at the juncture. Easy to visualize happening if you have some operator dropping the block into a jig, lowering a barrel into the unit, holding the breech end to the opening in the face of the block and activating a hydraulic ram to push the barrel into the bloc. Not a factor for the AirForce guns where the barrel is held in be clamp rings part way up the tube (though mismatches in machining the rings and the frame could result in the tube, as a whole, being in a different alignment from an identical model next to it). Technically, the cocked juncture could be in any direction, but I suspect manufacturing lines have the jigs configured in a way the leads to a downward preference (either the block is “right side up” and the muzzle end of the barrel tends to rest a bit below the breach end [being held in alignment to the block by the operator], or the block is bottom-up and the muzzle end is held a touch higher).

          (for threaded breaches) Any misalignment in the cutting of the threads will result in a cocked barrel, though this likely has no preference for direction — a difference in cutting of a few degrees of rotation would result in the cocked angle rotating that far when mounted to the receiver.

          However, scope height over the bore, projectile drop (low velocity, high drag), and zero range, alone have a significant impact. Especially since the classic scope configuration was a long-range affair, manufacturers would have designed the equipment to be parallel to the nominal bore (and yes, those early scope were lucky to even reach a 1″ diameter, so could be mounted fairly low — low enough that monte carlo stocks weren’t in demand; I don’t recall where it was, but I’ve seen images of a modern rifle scope with an objective so large they cut a crescent shape out of it to go /around/ the barrel).

          At long ranges (250+ zero distances) a scope adjustment of 1MOA moves the point of impact over 2.5 inches. Or… 1MOA is all that is needed to compensate for a high-mounted scope, and the rest is available to compensate for the actual trajectory. That means that an cartridges can probably be handled in 1 to 1.5 turns of the turret (assume a turret that goes 0-10 MOA — one full turn would be 25+ inches of correction). At these distances one is normally shooting high velocity, highly aerodynamic cartridges, but even something less effective (a round nose 45-70, say) is probably within range of the turret adjustment (might be starting to get loose).

          But at 25 yards? That 1MOA adjustment only covers 1/4″. It takes one turn of the turret to compensate for the scope height, and then you have to account for the projectile drop. Add in any less then parallel alignment for a break barrel design.

          A 50 yard zero helps — but who uses a break barrel with a 50 yard zero? You’re likely at the upper end of the PCP range now.

          And don’t even think of zeroing at 10yard/meter competition distance — 1MOA is 1/10″, you’d need 25MOA adjustment just to compensate for a 2.5″ scope height.

          Given the above, what the airgun industry needs is a complete set of adjustable rings (that is, a series for tip-off dove-tails, another for Weaver/Picatinny, in both quick-detach and more permanent designs). If one-piece bases, they could even be marked with MOA tick marks, and instructions for calculating the starting point based upon zero distance and scope height above bore. Maybe even hints for using a ballistics program to also incorporate typical projectile drop at that distance.

          Don’t expect the scopes to be changed to produce extended upper adjustments… They aren’t needed for the larger buying population — and would just confuse anyone trying to “center” the scope in the adjustment range.


          • They have elevation compensating scope mounts on the market already. Nikon makes a few. I could design an elevation adjustable scope mount that would allow the scope to be set for the intended range and still be in the middle of it’s adjustment. I would also add a spring system to cancel out the recoil produced by springer air guns.


  29. Hi Tom! Were you the one that bought that 1792 Birch Cent from the auction in Baltimore on March 26th?? If so,congratulations are in order…..The buyer’s description made me think of you. FB


    • I guess I should elaborate on my feeble attempt at humor. 🙂 It seems the buyer preferred anonymity,but was described as being “a balding man with glasses wearing a dark blue shirt and jeans and from Texas…..He paid a mere 1.175 million dollars for the Birch penny circa 1792.I just thought you picked ‘er up for Edith!


    • FrankB,

      That wasn’t me. However, when Edith chided me for trading away my Liberator pistol I told her there is one for sale right now in Dallas.

      I don’t own a 1792 Birch Cent, but I do have an 1824 Large Cent in my desk drawer that I sometimes use when a coin is needed to turn a screw!

      B.B.


  30. Since ammo is expensive, and driving to a shooting range is time consuming —
    I’d like to see some air rifles that mimic the size, weight, balance, stock shape, and trigger feel of common hunting and target rifles. Things like the Remington 700, savage mark II, and ruger 10-22. They key thing is that the cheek weld, position, and trigger feel are identical enough to ensure practicing at home with an air rifle has complete carry over to using the firearm at the range. Sort of like dry-fire practice — but much better because there are observable results that give feedback.

    The replicas should also be spring powered. Mainly bec!ause they are for practicing marksmanship at home, and with no recoil – shooting is too easy :). But also because a back yard practice rifle should be convenient and self contained. This doesn’t mean they should be magnums though. A little recoil is good to practice follow through. But a huge amount requires a loose hold on the rifle, which does not carry over to recoiling firearms very well.

    Also, since it’s a backyard practice rifle – it shouldn’t have a cocking force of more that 25 pounds. The idea is to be able to shoot for an hour without getting sore arms 🙂

    If the ballistics of the replicas could be made to be similar in curvature to the firearms – that would be ideal. IE: the air-savage mark II at 20 yards has the same ballistics as the rimfire-savage mark II at 100 yards.

    If some manufactures did this, the firearms market could become an air gun market :). Talk about profit potential. Those folks are spending $50 a day on ammo at the range, so a $600 rifle they can practice with cheaply in their back yard pays for itself in a matter of days !!!


  31. BB
    I don’t agree with you on the Liberator need not be able to shoot well! What’s wrong with having a faithful replica that shoots accurately? After all, it is going to be worth much more that 50 shots and the owner can’t shoot another airgunner to get his superior gun! lol


  32. I wish they would bring back Crosman 2200 same as a 2100 except 22 and Daisy 22 SG same as a 880 except 22. I’m trying to find these except my friend and I don’t go to gun shows much anymore because they became grulling endurance contests if your getting up there in age after you know who got in. I check eBay once a week.



  33. Dutchjozef——I have been a match rifle shooter (smallbore, bigbore, pistol) since 1962. I have used quite a variety of target iron sights on win.m52,s, Rem 37,s, anscheutz prone and free rifle, win m70s, 1903 Springfields, etc. I have a collection of rear sights- Redfield,s ,Lymans, ancheutz etc. I also have a Gamo sight. There is nothing wrong with it. I would not hesitate to use it on any of my .22 cal target rifles in an iron sight match. However, it has a recoil stop pin that will not let me use it on a .22 rifle with a grooved receiver. I have heard that there is a Chinese copy of this sight that is not well made. Perhaps that is why you don’t like this sight. Ed


  34. BB– If you ever get another liberator pistol, you can fire it with reduced (whisper) loads. A round ball and a very light charge of bullseye will probably be more accurate than a light pistol bullet. I have a Dixie Deringer replica (the one used to kill Lincoln) that I shoot with 5-10 grains of fffg. It is almost recoil free. A similar load with smokeless powder would probably work in a liberator. I do not think that it would put much stress on the welds.. Ed


  35. BB.,

    While going through some old threads I read about Ken Reeves. I reached out to him to see if he still does tuning on Diana 54s. He replied that beach use of arthritis he is completely out of the gun work business. If you know of anyone else who does quality tuning on Diana 54s, or Weihrauch HW 90s, I would appreciate the info.

    Also, I have learned much from your blog, but you are costing me way too much money! I started last year with one (1) Umarex Octane .177. I’ve since upgraded the scope and rings to a UTG AO SWAT, added two (Yes, 2. Couldn’t pass up a deal on that clean used one.) Diana 54 .22s, a HW 90 .22 , a collection of UTG scopes, a shooting monopod, monkey sand bag, a caliper to measure group size, a folding range table, and a wide variety of pellets in both calibers. Now I’ve just ordered my first Chrony and printer. This has to stop. Are you hiring reviewers?

    Thank you.

    Jim M.


  36. Here is my wish list:

    Crosman, bring back the late 60s blue/silver streak with the rocker safety but with an upgraded breech that makes scope mounting easier. I would prefer to see it in the traditional 20 cal but would buy one in 22 as well.

    Also upgrade the breeches on the current Benjamin 377/322.

    Jim


  37. B.B.,

    I finished chrony testing 8 different pellet types.

    Of those 8, I weighed and head sorted 3 types.

    Here’s the odd part,…of those 3 types, the random pellets had a tighter spread,.. than the selected pellets. ( 2,1.5 and 11 fps increase in spread ).

    While not expecting a whole lot better,.. I did not expect any of them to be worse,…let alone all 3.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks, Chris


    • I should have clarified on the “sorted”,…I shot 10 sorted (and) 10 unsorted of the SAME pellet type/brand/weight. I did this for 3 different pellets.

      Chris


    • Chris

      Are you and your chrono playing games with each other again, or have you done the impossible ?
      There must be a reason for this, but I can’t think of what it might be at the moment . Maybe a combination of reasons .

      Spend more time shooting paper to find your best pellets . The chucks are up, and hungry .

      twotalon


      • TT,

        Impossible? Theory would suggest that. See comment to B.B. below. I did not measure skirts as they are effectivly “sized” when pressed into the breech.

        I shoot plenty of paper at 41′ and do see better groups with certain ones. The weather still has not broke here yet. When we get a 55 degree am and 70+ by noon, I will take the day off and get out, set up a range at 20,30,40 and 50yds. Shoot all types 10 times at 25-30 yds. to get the best group and zero from that.

        As for “chucks”, have yet to see my first,…but it won’t be long !

        Chris


        • Chris

          If you shoot good quality pellets and have not gotten a bad tin ( I have a few times ) , it seems to work best for me to only pay attention to how they load . Of course, watching for damaged pellets before loading .
          I like pellets to seat with a pleasant amount of resistance. Too loose of a fit, or too tight does not work too well on the average. Let’s call it a comfortable fit.
          Some times the ones that feel wrong will still fall into the group O.K. , but too frequently will not.

          This works better for me than fooling around with sorting for anything other than visual defects.

          twotalon


          • TT,

            Gunfun1 mentioned the same thing about knowing how a pellet will do based on fit.

            In a way, you are the “calipers” and maybe even the “scale” to a degree. Interesting. Lots of pellets and lots of shooting to figure that one out !

            Soooo,…in your opinion,..if your shooting your “comfortable pellets” and you run across a tight one or a loose one, what do they shoot like? Randomly off, high, low?

            Just curious,… so I know what to look out for. I’ll pay more attention to fit/results in the future.

            Thanks, Chris


            • Chris

              Some times a pellet that feels considerably looser or tighter than normal will shoot to the same spot as the others, but often do not . You can’t tell where they will go .
              You develop a feel for seating much like you can tell if a screw or bolt is starting right or cross threading . Also with electronic connectors .

              B.B.s old friend Mac was doing testing for him while B.B. was laid up a while back . He noted that a gun was shooting three different groups within the group based on how tight the pellets fit. The tight ones shot to one place, the looser ones shot to another place , and the moderate fit ones shot to still another place .

              When I get an extra tight or loose pellet , I usually shoot it into the ground and load another .

              twotalon



                • Chris

                  There is another thing about pellet fi and quality…

                  Pellets are not really round . The die parts don’t always match up perfectly , and will form pellets with the two halves slightly offset . This happens with bullet moulds also .
                  So the pellet will have a widest point and a narrowest point . There will be a bit of feel difference if these deviations in roundness fall on the lands or the grooves .

                  twotalon


                  • Twotalon,

                    Odd that you mention that,…since I have calipered pellets heads,…I have noticed some deviation depending on the rotation of the pellet.
                    Usually only .0005~.001 though. And,…good point on the rifling vs fit.

                    I must say, my pellets look pretty darn nice.

                    Chris


                    • Chris

                      Looking good is only one step in the right direction . I have gotten hold of some really bad looking ones myself . One tin even looked like they threw two different types of pellets in. Two other tins were not completely formed on some of the pellets . Bad shooters.

                      twotalon




      • B.B.,

        So it would seem. While sorting “should” reduce variences in speed and accuracy (in theory),…it would seem that there are “other forces” causing (more) varience. My guess would be that it would lie within the power plant.

        Perhaps only the most well regulated PCP’s would allow the sorted pellets to do better on a repeatable basis.

        Thanks, Chris


  38. I’m 6’6″. Would love to shoot some of the nice springers like the HW30, 50, 97K etc. but I need more length of pull. The spring piston air rifle world is not made for tall people.


  39. Mike– I am 5’5″ tall. Most guns have too long a length of pull for me. Its, worse when I wear winter clothing. The answer for both of us is to use spacers to adjust the length of pull. Ed


  40. Gyrojet Rocket Pistol (and carbine?) airgun replica. Like the Liberator pistol, the Gyrojet was made from low cost materials. The rocket projectile did not produce the same pressures as conventional ammunition. I have read the Gyrojet did not see much service apart from some very limited use in Vietnam but Ronald Reagan liked his pistol so much that Gyrojet sent him free ammo for it. Gyrojets don’t seem to have been much use as weapons (except underwater) but they look as cool as all hell and an airgun version would have a lot of visual appeal, maybe with a special James Bond edition. It would be good to see someone like Umarex have a go at making an airgun version. After all….You Only Live Twice!


    • The GyroJet was a neat idea that didn’t work out. The ammo (Rockets) was very expensive and the gun, both pistol and carbine were inaccurate. Also, it didn’t have any power at very close range. A pistol needs close range power. It took some time for the rocket to get up to speed.

      Mike


  41. Hi folks,

    I got a replacement spring for the Diana 31 from Sportwaffen Schneider a few days ago.

    It seems the spring is slightly bent. Should this worry me or will it fix itself once the spring is compressed for the first few times?

    Is there anything I *can* do in the first place without making it worse?

    BTW… the spring is pretty dark with some black particles on it. Looks like Diana uses the old “heating and cooling in oil” trick to toughen the spring. I think the springs that came with the rifle were rather shiny in comparison, so did Diana change the process or am I remembering wrong?

    Stephan


  42. I just bought a new hw 30s from p.a. in january.all I did at first is clean the barrel, remove the stock n have a look around making sure the cocking arm didn’t rub the reciever.then just shoot n shoot, cleaned the barrel again after 500 pellets.when it hit the 1000 pellet count cleaned the barrel cleaned n polished trigger parts, installed a good scope.after a few scope and trigger adjustments its becoming a nice target rifle.but like you said the trigger just isn’t as nice as the trigger in my hw 55.but its easily a next up to the 55’s trigger.seems like my 55 cost about as much new back in 69 as my 30s does today.but the 55 is pure quality.I’d say by todays prices a new 55 would have to cost upwards of $400 . And we know the power for price would prohibit profitable sales.
    But weight to power ratio on a 30s is real nice.cocking force between them is very simular.
    My 30s is fastly becoming my go to rifle for target shooting under40 yards.


  43. I pulled my 2400KT & Triton apart last night and found out a few things about doing the swap for the adjustable hammerspring
    while the 2400 came with what appears to be a galvanized hammerspring,the Triton has a black painted one and the adjuster uses a 1″ screw for about3/4″ if adjustability. I just reassembled everything and considered it a dry run for now and try to get some good chronic results before the actual swap to compare to the end result.I.spoke with one of PA’s online advisors about bulkfilling it or adapting it for the bigger cartridges and was directed to Crosman for reference.now I’m back to the hi-Pac but having no luck on this phone.

    Reb


  44. I just went to the Webley site a little bit ago thinking to contact them and ask if there was any chance they would have Hatsan or whomever build the Paradigm. What I did find there that was extremely interesting to me and I am sure to all of you guys who like the new Webley MKVI CO2 pistol.

    http://webleymkvi.com/

    You might want to give this some serious consideration. I am.


  45. Edith,

    As I understand it, You have access to my actual email address and that I can contact Tom personally at blogger@pyramydair .com. Please confirm this information via a email to me personally (preferably) or on the blog. Thank you in advance!

    Bugbuster


  46. Twotalon,

    On the above,…do you remember the brands? I will still being doing weight and head sort data on my pellets. While it may not matter,..it will give me an idea of the consistancy from one pellet brand to the other.

    If it works out that the “best” shoots the best, then great. If the “worst” shoots the best,…then I will be shooting the “worst”. I’m just that way. I need to know and understand the variables. Even in the end,….if they don’t make a darn bit of sense.

    At least I proved it to myself, one way or the other.

    Chris


    • Chris

      I had H&N , RWS , and Crosman with visual defect . Also had some tins that were too variable in size , and some over or undersize (most of the tin) .

      The thing is, something can be wrong with the pellet machine before someone finds out about it . I doubt that any manufacturer is immune to this problem . JSB seems the most consistent as far as I can tell . Must be good QA.

      twotalon


      • Twotalon,

        Notes made. While yet to test past 41′,..JSB’s seem best. I have never shot .22 Crosman. At least on higher fps rifles, I have read that the Crosmans will foul a barrel quicker. And I do believe that B.B. mentioned one time that H+N are the only one he knew of that “selected” their pellets.

        We’ll see in the end. Thanks for all the info. and good conversation today.

        Time to shoot,..Chris


        • Chris,USA
          You mentioned the other day when I was talking about going to the PA store that does not exist that you lived in Ohio I am assuming and were only a few hours away from the warehouse.

          My friend and me are leaving for ST, Marys, Ohio early Wednesday morning to pickup his Boss Hoss and I saw you stated that winter had still not completely broken yet where you live and you were waiting for a 70 degree day to shoot outside in the blog above.

          I was wondering if you know the area we are going to in northwest Ohio and can tell me what temperatures to expect on our trip as it has been up and down here in Alabama with temps and it will be on and off rain here all week which is about normal here for late march and early April. So any input as to what clothes we should bring for the average temps this time of years would be helpful.

          BD


          • Buldawg,

            Tues~Thurs highs 51,56,69 Lows 27,38,47 Precip % 40,0,60 Scope radar closer to your time frame as lows and precip. could mean snow or ice. Med. coat with some flannels for layering up or down. Have a safe trip, Chris


            • Chris,USA
              That’s exactly what I was looking for as you are right winter has not let up yet there. I appreciate the info and suggestions for clothes.

              I just hop we don’t run into ice as we do get some ice here and snow in Alabama but they only use sand on the roads, no salt or plow trucks so ice and pulling a trailer would not be fun.

              Thanks BD


              • BD,

                Of course,….you “Southeners” might want to bring the Arctic Parkas and mittens…. 😉 Up here, if it is 55, you see people in shorts and t-shirts.

                Actually, the lows are a bit higher as well as the highs, but only a little. Wed. is definitly your best day. Must say, quite a drive ! Hope your staying over and getting a nights rest before heading back. Again, travel safe.

                Chris


                • Chris,USA
                  Yea and with the blood thinners I take for my heart my blood is like ice water anyway so I get cold even down here so I would be an icicle up there. I worked with a friend back in the late 90s at a Gm dealership here that wore shorts and a tee shirt to work when it was 35 or 40 degrees outside and complained it was hot in the building so not all us southern rednecks are thin blooded, LOL

                  We are leaving early Wednesday to get there before dark so he can inspect the bike and make sure it is what was advertised. Then get a room and come back Thursday to pay for it and load it up and take our time coming back as we most likely will not get out of there till noon or so because we have to wait till 9 am for the banks to open to make the wire transfer to the owner and wait till it is confirmed in his account to leave so we will be getting a room Thursday as well and get home Friday.

                  Thanks again BD


                  • BD,

                    Sounds like a good trip,..with rest along the way. That always makes the trip more enjoyable. The heck with that “drive ’till ya’ drop” travel.

                    Have fun, see the States, and see ya’ when you get back.

                    Chris


                    • Chris,USA
                      We got home around 2 pm today the 3rd and got the bike unloaded and it is a pure beast and is as loud as if you were standing on the starting line at a drag race right next to a big block chevy drag car.

                      It is beautiful and definitely king of the road as the speedo reads to 160 mph and it will do 120 mph in first gear with second being an overdrive of .88 to 1 ratio so at 120 you shift to second and stay in the throttle and it will bury the speedo at 160 with ease, I do not believe any rice rocket ZX-14 or Hayabusa can outrun this bike in top speed or pure power as it is 502 CI and 502 HP .

                      My only complaint of the whole trip ( I don’t know where you live in Ohio) but I will NEVER again drive thru Cincinnati or Dayton ever again on I-75 as if I lived any where near there I would be in jail for killing someone due to road rage. it was the worst two big cities I have ever driven thru and Atlanta is childs play compared to those two cities.

                      I am sure glad I live in Sweet Home Alabama.

                      BD



  47. B.B.,

    I have already been bouncing the idea around in my head to use my HW30S for benchrest competition. It is remarkably accurate. So, I would like to see the HW30S action put into a field target type stock much like the Air Arms S400 MPR, or better yet in a true benchrest stock like R.A.W. makes. Also make the trigger match grade. I would jump on that and I would compete in the Springer Class.

    G&G


  48. There is now a trend for making pellet/rifled barrel versions of replica BB revolvers using metal shells. This adds accuracy and versatility to the airgun in terms of pellet types that may be used. With semi-auto replicas, the most reliable pellet loading system seems to be the revolver type clip or magazine. It works well enough for the Beretta PX4 blowback with the stick pellet magazines. Only thing is it doesnt’ have the same level of realism as the bb pistols like the Makarov Ultra blowback that combines the CO2 cartridge with the bb carrier within the same magazine unit. Maybe for some semi-auto replicas they can do something similar, combining the PX4 revolving stick magazine and the CO2 cartridge in one magazine unit. This would add realism to the operation of replica blowback autos and offer rifled barrel/pellet versions of certain pistols. The stick magazine of the PX4 carries 8 pellets on each end. Most classic semi-auto firearm pistols from WW2 have this capacity. MIght be too difficult to replicate the Walther PPKs, the Beretta M 34 and the Browning 1910 this way, but the Colt 1911, the Tokarev, the Walther P 38 and the Browning HP 35 should have enough room in the mechanicals to accommodate this.

    I am also wondering if smaller pocket pistols can be replicated in BB versions such as the Baby Browning or the Baby Nambu using smaller CO2 cartridges. They used to have these cartridges available. Not as many shots, but the replica would be a jewel of an airgun


  49. BB
    Glad you mentioned the Crosman 600. It is by far my favorite vintage airgun. The balance and trigger are outstanding,especially, for a 50 year old CO2 pistol. I find that Crosman ultra mags cycle flawlessly in mine. A modern version in any facsimile would be of immediate interest.


  50. The Crosman night stalker was a total design disaster. Heavy trigger pull, questionable accuracy, cheap seals that would often come from the factory already ruined and leaking, hard to get 88 gram co2 cylinders, hard to reload the clips. plastic stock easily scarred up. I went through at least 2 dozen nightstalkers with crosman trying to get one that actually worked. Then I had to treat it so gently that I rarely ever used it. Plus the scarcity of co2 that it needed made it a gun that was a wall decoration only. Eventually I just gave it up for a bad job and scrapped it.


  51. Tom, I love the idea of a target version of the HW 30 / R7! I certainly agree there is a market niche for such a rifle and would love to see it offered.

    In Beeman’s early days, he in fact offered the HW 30 as a package with the HW diopter sight, and the catalog included a nice story of a fellow who had achieved NRA “Distinguished Expert” rating with the combo. A similar version of the Diana 27 was also done.

    By the way, the Diana sight in your photo is a vintage Diopter 60 match sight–not the nifty peep attachment sold with the diminutive models 70 and 72, as described in your text.


  52. What we really need is a Co2 Pistol, that’s a Repeater, and is chambered for a .22 pellet,,,The BEST Co2 pistol I ever owned was the “Daisy 622X”. Identical in every way to the Daisy 617X,, It’s Powerful, Powerful enough for me to take out a Pheasant that popped out of the bush 25ft from my Deer-Blind about 6 years ago. I almost cried when w/out any news they just stopped production, At the time I was using it Gamo Raptors weren’t on the market yet, but 9gr,. “Prometheus” Hunters were, and when paired w/ this pistol, The gun left you feeling euphoric it was that good, Even though it hasn’t worked for 4 yrs I still have it in the hopes of finding someone who can fix it, or switch barrels from a 617x to make it use-able again,,Now every time you load a cart all the gas escapes in about a second, It’s been like that ever since Daisy changed the breech seal from something that was soft and pliable to some hard polymer type of seal, But anyways, If I ever see another one I’d be willing to pay TOP dollar for it. I own quite a fewCo2 pistols ranging from In-expensive “plinkers” to a .22 Webley Alecto, and countless 2240 modified guns, but none even come close to the fun I had with that shooter. WE aall need to stand up to the airgun industry and tell them what we would like to see on the shelves, NOT them delegating what we want to shoot!. Thank You, Andy S.



    • Basically, the Daisy 622x was a CO2 top break revolver with auto-pistol cosmetics. I have one of these in Manila and it is a fun airgun. Only thing is you were limited to flat nosed pellets that didn’t snag on the mechanism. Now all they have to do is turn the Webley MK VI CO2 BB revolver into a .22 pellet firing/rifled barrel revolver and you’d have the same thing. Much more expensive than the Daisy but with more collector value. I read in a British airgun magazine that this is coming, but in .177.



        • Sorry Andrew, I’d like to sell it to you, but it is in the Philippines, where you need an expensive firearms export permit to get it out of the country. Yes,……even for an airgun that was imported from the US! Not worth the trouble with red tape and expense. It doesn’t make sense, don’t really know why. Gives the government some revenue I guess.



  53. They should build big-bore air shotguns. In the Philippines they have these brass construction, bulk-fill, CO2 air shotguns with one inch bores. At 75 feet they would pattern #9 shot within a 3 foot square target. To get the power and range, they would have large release valves and 48 inch barrels. They have “LD” style external hammer cocking mechanisms with swinging breeches, (LD was a Manila airgun manufacturer who popularized this system.) and were single shot. The only problem was if your hand slipped while cocking with the breeched closed and the airgun loaded, the thing would fire! Only thing it needed was a transfer bar system at the valve pin. These airguns are widely used for hunting birds in the islands. No reason why a PCP version can’t be built.


  54. I would like to see a air force condor with a 10 round mag. I love the look-power-accuracy of these guns but have been spoiled by my mrod’s 10 rd mag.I know there are many people out there that feel the same way.


    • It would have to be a whole new design…

      All the common repeater models use a moving bolt/probe to push a pellet in the barrel/chamber. The probe typically has o-rings to seal the chamber behind the pellet, and the air passage either goes through the probe/bolt or around a port near the base of it in the chamber. The valve/striker assembly is separate.

      AirForce models have a moving chamber that goes over the valve itself — move it forward to reveal the barrel for the pellet, then move it back and lock to seal around the valve; and the striker surrounds the barrel. There’s no easy way to put a multi-pellet magazine in that path without losing a lot of air in the gaps around the magazine.


  55. Thanks Baron, I kinda figured there was a reason they haven’t done it yet. Still I thought this was a sort of fantasy post. On that note let’s make it a semi auto as quiet as my Marauder.
    You should see my fantasy cars and wife ….


  56. I wish more companies made their stocks ambidextrous !!! Many of us lefties are used to right hand actions, but
    the stocks can make a gun uncomfortable or even un-useable to us. I too would like to see more co2 airguns that can be bulk filled from paintball tanks. While they are at it, use best quality seals to keep the guns from leaking down, even if they have to back to leather seals where the guns are best kept under pressure, There are better valves available to up the power levels too. Bring back the Daisy Model 95 but up the power to 450-500 fps.


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