H&N Hornet pellet: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

H&N Hornet
The H&N Hornet is a new pointed pellet. Is it any good? This test hopes to find out.

This report covers:

  • Off the dime
  • The Hornet
  • The test
  • Air Arms Falcon pellets
  • H&N Hornet pellets
  • The verdict

How do you test a new pellet? You shoot it in as many airguns as possible and compare it to what you know those guns can do.

How do I test a new pellet? Pretty much the same way, only I’m on a time schedule, plus I have to publish my findingsΒ — findings that will be scrutinized by thousands of readers for multiple purposes.

I have to be very careful when testing a new pellet, because I could give it a bad reputation without meaning to. For this reason, I’m very careful.

Off the dime

Well, this fact has bothered me, so I came up with what I hope will be a simple solution. I will test the pellet in a few guns of known capability and let the chips fall where they may. One of those guns is my Beerman R8 Tyrolean that I always reach for when I want to test accuracy. Today, I’ll shoot the H&N Hornet .177-caliber pointed pellet in my R8.

Or isΒ it a pointed pellet? It certainly has a point, though not one made from the same material as the body, which is lead. Pyramyd Air calls it a pointed pellet, and I assume H&N does as well, though they didn’t put that on theΒ tin. To my eye, however, the Hornet is a high-tech hollowpoint that has a metal point of different material attached for improved airflow. I know a way of testing that (the hollowpoint-osity), which will be in a future report.

But, today, I just wanted to get a general assessment of the pellet. Is it worth the time spent to evaluate it? And doing that is real simple. It involves a paper target and 25 yards of distance.

The Hornet

Before we get to the test, let’s look at the pellet. The Hornet is a .177-caliber pellet that has a pointed metal insert set into a large hollow in its nose. This insert is brass-colored. The insert metal is harder than hardened lead, and it seems homogeneous — not plated. I’m going to call it brass, although I don’t know that it is.

According to the information on the Pyramyd Air website, the Hornet weighs 8.8 grains. I weighed 10 pellets and found them to range from 9.4 to 9.6 grains. They appear well-formed and clean. But any imperfections should show up in a 25-yard test. I worry whenever a pellet isn’t homogeneous because of issues of inconsistency. But I’ll stop talking now and get on with the shooting.

The test

The R8 was shot off a sandbag rest at 25 yards, indoors. The R8 has demonstrated it can be rested directly on a bag with no problems — which is rare for a breakbarrel.

Air Arms Falcon pellets

First to be shot was an Air Arms Falcon pellet with a 4.52mm head. This is the pellet that has demonstrated great consistency in this rifle, so I use it as a benchmark.

Ten Falcons went into 0.403 inches at 25 yards. While this isn’t the smallest group this rifle has ever made at this distance, it’s still remarkable. Most shooters would be happy with 5 shots this tight at 25 yards.

Air Arms Falcon target
At 25 yards, 10 Air Arms Falcon pellets went into this group, which measures 0.403 inches between centers.

H&N Hornet pellets

The Hornet’s turn. I wasn’t prepared for the long delay between firing and the sound of the pellet hitting the trap! The Falcons seemed to travel much faster, which I’m sure they did.

The Hornets entered the R8’s breech much tighter than the Falcons did, despite their heads being 4.50mm. I also measured the skirts at 4.61mm, which may be the reason they’re tight. And their greater weight also slows them.

Ten Hornets made a 0.67-inch group when shot in the same way from the same gun at the same 25 yards. Don’t try to extrapolate anything from this, other than the fact that the group is somewhat larger than the first one. But you can look at the results in The great pellet comparison test, where this same R8 shot 7 bargain pellets against the same Falcon pellet. You might find some interesting comparisons there.

H&N Hornet target
The R8 put 10 Hornets in 0.67 inches at 25 yards. That’s good; but as you can see, not as good as the Falcons.

The verdict

In my opinion, the Hornet has promise. I will test it next in my Diana 34PΒ against its best pellet, which is a Crosman Premier lite. That should satisfy those who believe as I do that the R8 is not powerful enough for this pellet.

And after that, I plan on shooting the pellet into a transparent bar of glycerin soap, to assess the expansion properties. I know that’s not as cool as using ballistic gellatin, but it is far easier to obtain and manage. And it works!

148 thoughts on “H&N Hornet pellet: Part 1

  1. BB
    I like this test that your doing by shooting the known good performing pellet and your new pellet you chose to try in your gun.

    I like the bar of glycerin soap test also. But I would like to possibly see one more test. Its kind of on the line of the splatology shooting. A little while back I posted a picture with .177, .22 and .25 caliber pellets shot out of various guns at my steel Caldwell spinner at 50 yards. I just randomly picked the pellets up and took the picture.

    I would like to see what the new metal tip H&N pellet flattens like shooting at a metal spinner.

    And also one more thing. Could you give the overall height of the pellet from the skirt to the tip of the metal point. That’s a very important dimension for people that will shoot them from a gun that has a magazine or clip.



  2. That’s a pretty remarkable group for a pointed, over here in the UK the holy grail would be a pointed that holds accuracy in a 22 as with our power restrictions 22’s are a bit limited at range due to limited initial penetration (hunting).
    As an aside, my own penetration tests show me that pointeds don’t penetrate any further in a neutral substance, like soap or clay…however, if you shoot something with an outer layer, like a melon (or a rabbit) they will penetrate better at long range, so if you shot something similar at 50 yards with the R8 or 70 yards with the Diana you may see a different set of properties, and their real advantage, which is the initial “skin/fur break” before it rounds off


    • Dom

      You make a good point about getting the pellet through the skin . It takes up some of the power (quite a bit sometimes) to get the pellet into the part of the anatomy where you want it to go .

      twotalon


      • Very true. Having skinned and processed many animals that I have trapped and also taken while hunting, I can assure you that there is a great difference in the thickness(toughness) of the skin of some animals. Common airgun game like squirrel and woodchucks have a very tough hide, for example. Oppossums have a thin hide ,but are often quite fat, and that layer of fat , impedes penatration of the pellets. Raccoons have thick hide, especially at the neck , where there is a layer of gristle that extends to the shoulders, as well as a heavy layer of fat. Rabbits are quite fragile by comparasion.Penatration and accuracy to hit vital areas are what is needed in airgun hunting pellets.


        • Robert

          I skinned out a chuck once (big one) and found the hide on the front upper body to be very thick .
          Would be great for making some tough boots if the whole animal had the same thickness everywhere .
          I find that bunny wabbits have such a thin, rotten hide that it does not count for much at all .
          The whole rabbit is fragile. Not so with a chuck .

          twotalon


          • TT: I once read somewhere that chucks seem to have little moisture in their tissues compared to other animals.My experience bears that out. Woodchuck hides were once prized for making boot laces. I also remember that article in the “Rifleman” about brush busting calibers. We found that a deer standing in chest high dry golden rod was perrty safe if you had to shoot several feet of it to connect, even at close ranges with powerful calibers.


    • Dom,

      While have yet to test it, I plan to use things like plastic container lids as a penetration test. (as a side, these show groups very well and have 0% tear)

      For a heavier penetration test, something like a screw on milk jug lid or the lids on some sport drinks.

      Both, I believe would offer more resistance than bone or skin. Where they stop penetrating, would be the max. range. ?,….should work.



        • It’s probably beyond the “graphic” scale that the air gun forms use to placate the squemish, but shooting skulls and animal cadavers will teach you alot about bullets. I have done this, and have shot green(fresh )shoulder bones and skulls ,to see what bullets will do .Putting them behind brush and grass will also give you an idea of deflection and dispel many myths about “brush busting” and that another oxymoron “killing power”.


          • Robert

            There was some testing done in American Rifleman concerning brush busting bullets a long time ago . Turns out that it takes almost nothing to cause severe bullet deflection .

            I have yet to shoot a pellet completely through the head of a full grown chuck with an airgun . I would need more power than I have . I have had pellets glance off the skull from a hit at a less than optimum angle , and only give them a headache .

            twotalon


            • Twotalon
              You comment concerning bullet,(or pellet) deflection brought to mind a time last year when I was shooting at 2 in empty plastic vitamin containers at 25 meters. I had set up two rows of 5 containers with about 2 feet separating the two rows vertically. While shooting the first container on the bottom row a container 2 feet directly above was sent flying instead. It took me a couple of minutes to put together what had just happened as I knew that I, and my .22cal HW97 had been shooting spot on all afternoon. Upon examination of the plant, I noticed a perfect hole in the top most leaf. Considering the plant was 10 meters from my shooting position, I was amazed the pellet had deflected 2 vertical feet in 15 meters because of contact with a mere leaf. By the way, there was no deflection left or right. Just vertical.
              Happy Easter to all fellow airgunners who choose to celebrate the holiday.
              Ciao
              Titus


              • Titus

                Yeah, if you shoot long enough around obstructions, you find out that bullets or pellets can change direction pretty good . Most of the time you have no idea where it went.

                twotalon


              • Amend
                After the sentence ending with………”shooting spot on all afternoon. I noticed one of my wife patio plants 10 meters infant of me”. Upon examination of……….etc
                Failure of me to proof read before posting.
                Ciao
                Titus



            • As in ive done test on what was already dispatched when i was younger & curious. Has helped alot in later years, cause i dont have to guess, i know the capabilities of what im working w/ . Killed a many a CottonTail on Horse back w/ a slingshot when i was 12,many a WhiteTail w/ 45/70 & 410..12 Guage Slug gun since then. Not from the Saddle, been working w/ 1 Horse for some time now w/ a short Recurve Bow. One of these days….


        • Twotalon,

          Too easy? I have read all the comments thus far and learned a lot. I just figured that shooting a heavier cap, from the top, would be (harder to penetrate), than any ground hog skull.



    • Dom,

      A pellet you might consider is the JSB Straton. This past weekend I tried them in .177 in my Edge. It was a less than stellar shooting day for such a low powered air rifle, but I put fourteen of them in a one inch group and thirteen of them were in one ragged hole that was less than three quarters of an inch. This was at 25 yards. They performed better than the other three pellets that were in the sampler pack. It has me rethinking my strictly dome pellet philosophy for “long range” shooting. They are also available in .22.


      • RR,

        While the Stratons’ may be offered in the sampler pack, they do not appeared to offered in the catalog or the PA site. And while looking this up, I noticed that JSB offers NO pointed pellets in .177 or .22.

        Also, if I am correct, pointed pellets are good out to about 25yds., so it is possible that they could compete with domes out to 25 yds.

        Like you, I have stuck with domes for that same reason.


        • Chris,

          No, PA does not offer them at this time, however they may do such in the future. Also, PA is not the only place in the world that sells pellets. Yes, I always start there, but I do not necessarily stop there.

          Something else to keep I mind about these Stratons. In my Edge at twenty-five yards, they also outperformed the other three domed pellets in the sampler. Will they do such in your air rifles? I do not know, but they may be worth taking a look at.


          • RR,

            In other words,….keep an open mind. I have not checked out too many other sites, but do have a few saved. Since Dom is in the U.K., they might very well offer them over there. Thanks.

            Chris


        • Chris,USA
          Was just reading your post, and thought I would jump in, hope you don’t mind. Although PA is my “go to” source, I do “wander around” to see what’s “out there”, and in doing so I can tell you that (at least about a month ago), a certain airgun competitor in Arizona does have the JSB “Straton” listed in their pellet section, just click on the “JSB” tab and you’ll find them. Take care.


  3. I got some Predator Metal Mags in .22, Overall height .425, 17.0 grains

    Cutting one open revealed a .225 long metal insert. The cone is .155 long. There is a pin that is part of the cone that is .060 diameter and .100 long.

    The inserts are pressed in and not glued, as best I can tell.

    I chronied 10 from a TX 200 and got 602fps. avg. with a spread of 23 and S.D. of 6.

    Muzzle energy factored out to be 13.68.

    As for “splatology”, I have yet to recover a “confirmed” pellet but have found some tips that are “slightly” bent and separated from the pellet.

    On American Airgunner awhile back, BB and others did testing with ballistic gelatin and the Pred. Poly Mags. If remembering correctly, the plastic tip came off first and the pellet kept going. This was a penetration test and not an expansion test.

    They even tried the ‘Redneck Hollow Points”.


  4. B.B.,

    Since we are on pellets today, I have a question(s) on pellet {manufacturers}…….

    1)..How many do you know of ?

    2)..Of that #, say 30 for a fictional number, how many mfgr. pellets for other companies/brands?

    3)..And last and maybe most important,…how many pellets are out there that are actually the IDENTICAL pellet, made by the SAME mfgr., just re-named, re-packaged and sold as what would appear to be new offering ?

    Of course, the combinations are staggering and probably no solid data exist,….so just some rough estimations would be fine.

    Thanks, Chris


    • 3) Sure that happens, but just because they are made in the same place, by the same people and put into different tins does not mean they are the same quality of pellet. They don’t stop using the dies when they stop making perfect pellets, they just start boxing those up as cheaper brand pellets. This is exactly what crosman does with boxed vs tin Premiers.


    • Chris,

      Making pellets isn’t easy. Not many companies invest in it. If there are 30-50 companies worldwide, then they make for the 250 brands you see in the tins.

      Within Crosman you can answer question 3. Crosman makes their own pellets and Benjamin pellets on the same dies.

      B.B.


  5. While we are on the subject of pointed pellets, this past weekend I finally had decent enough weather and the time to shoot a bit, so I broke out my Edge mini-sniper and the JSB pellet sampler I had picked up a while back and tried them out.

    https://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/JSB_Match_Diabolo_Test_Sampler_177_Cal_Round_Nose_Pointed_4_Pellet_Types_400ct/958

    I shot three ten shot groups of each at 25 yards. The best group was produced by the Straton. I shot a ten shot group and then adjust the power on my scope from 32 down to 16 and shot four more. Reach in your pocket and pull out a nickel as I did and place it on the target. Only one hole is showing. The rest are hiding under the nickel. Not too bad for a pointed pellet.


  6. clearballistics sells a product that is supposed to be easy to handle, reusable and mimics “ordinance gel”. It does not rot, does not contain gelatin and can be remolded. They even sell an inexpensive Air Rifle block. $38 http://store.clearballistics.com/10-Percent-Ballistic-Gelatin-Air-Rifle-Block-p/608729261452.htm

    I would love to see a review of such a product. I bet many airgunners would be interested.
    I have no affiliation with the company and simply am interested in seeing your take on it.


    • That’s pretty cool looking stuff. Yeah, I would like to see a review on that as well. A little expensive, but if it is truly reusable–then it might be worthwhile.



    • StevenG,

      Thanks for the great info. I have my order all ready to go, (1) 18″X4″X4″ block, (2) release agent and (3) a one pound bag. The latter will be for experimentation for other release agent possibilities with different types of mold materials. Hopefully, with some materials, it may not even be necessary. From the info on their website, I believe that the gel should melt at < than 300F.

      Personally, I believe that this is the only way to test a pellets effectiveness for hunting purposes, and should be done at maximum effective range. Testing at the muzzle doesn't mean squat.

      What type of AG's do you shoot on a regular basis?



        • StevenG,
          You will have to excuse me, I am old, not a texter and unfamiliar with all the acronyms used. What do you mean by FDPCP?

          I bought a Xisico XS46U with the gas ram upgrade from Mike last October. It was my third high powered springer and I couldn’t even try it out for a few weeks after receiving it because I was recovering from a hernia operation! Which model do you plan on buying?

          I, as you, buy almost all of my pellets from Pyramydair, occasionally, I will pick up a can or two from Wally World or Tractor Supply.

          Bugbuster


          • Flying Dragons PCP. It is an XS60C converted to PCP by Mike. He has two versions, the one on his site and an older model that you have to contact him directly for. The latter is substantially cheaper, but lacks a safety. Mine is one of those and with JSB exacts a tack driver.

            I was actually considering that model, but since I only shoot targets it seems a bit over powered. I believe Mike said he would have the B26s back once he had a source for the odd size piston seal. When that happens I will probably get one of those with a full tune.


            • StevenG
              At which distance do you normally prefer to shoot at and what type of targets?
              The Xisico XS46U, especially with the gas piston is not a rifle that you would want to target practice with for extended periods, it is powerful and does not cock easily.

              Have you ever considered an IZH61 or QB58FC, they are both side lever AG’s and you can shoot them all day long, very easy to cock, especially the IZH.

              Bugbuster


              • Normally 10 meters in my basement. Less often I go to a range that extend out to 200 meters, but I keep my shooting at the 25 and 50 benches.

                For ease of cleanup in the basement I shoot only at paper. I do not normally get any chance to shoot during the light hours, and where I live it would be ill advised.

                I honestly had not considered them, thanks! I am also considering a daisy x53. Likely either a CMP 853 or a new 953. Since I am just punching paper I do not need lots of power. I do however want to be able to mount a scope, my eyes are not that great. It would be ideal if that gun also liked JSB exacts or exact RS, but I don’t think anyone can say for sure before shooting that exact one.


                • StevenG,
                  OK, from your wish list it appears to me that you prefer accurate AG’s, so do I. Here is what I KNOW about the IZH and the QB58 since I bought three of each this past year. Of course they are both springers and are more difficult to shoot accurately than any other powerplant, the more powerful the gun, the harder it becomes.

                  I believe the IZH61 (five shot repeater) would be very comparable to the Daisy 953 but not the 853 with the match barrel, the trigger is not bad and the rifle weighs 4lb 3.5oz. It is a natural for a left hand shooter (all side levers are), the length of pull is adjustable AND the dovetail rail is angled down toward the axis of the bore (ANTI DROOP). The clip advances automatically via the cocking lever. If scoped however you will probably require a cantilever mount to obtain the proper eye relief and the front sight will have to be removed. They are not real picky as to pellets. Shoots Crosman 7.4s just fine.

                  The QB58 is another story, it is a very handsome rifle with a very nice, checkered, wooden stock, rated MV 750 in .177 with standard weight pellets (8 gr +/ -), much more FPE than necessary for 10 meter shooting, much easier to cock than my RWS48. Due to its short compression tube however, you can only use a compact scope on it, otherwise the bell of the objective lens will hang over the loading port. It also requires a cantilever scope mount, for sure. The trigger could be a lot better. I haven’t tampered with any of my new rifles as of yet with the exception of the sights. I sent one of the QB’s back for a replacement, mainly because it was shooting 6″ high at 10 meters and the rear sight was fully depressed.

                  What do you use for a pellet trap indoors?

                  Bugbuster


                  • Thanks, for the information. Always nice to have actual user reviews.

                    I use a large heavy duty plastic storage box filled with worn out clothes. I use some magnets on the inside and outside of the lid to hold the targets. The box is stood up on end. It is up against the concrete basement wall. I also have a small amount duct seal that I sometimes shoot at, I stick those shoot-n-c spots on it. Behind that is an archery block target. Also stood up against the concrete basement wall.


                    • StevenG,
                      Modern refrigerator/freezer doors with solid foam insulation make great BB/pellet traps, they can range from 2″ to 3″ thick or better and will last for thousands of shots. If you would add an additional sheet of metal on the metal side which will obviously be the back, and a sheet of 1/2″ plywood or thicker on top of that, it would take a long, long time for the BB’s or pellets to pein through the metal even if you shot in the same spot, which you won’t have to. The best part is that you can get them cheap on even free!

                      If you reside in the lower 48 and supply me with a mailing address,( A P.O. box would be fine), I will send you a sample of some material that I acquired last week which I believe has many possibilities. It is some really neat stuff!

                      Bugbuster


                  • Thanks for the offer, but I am pretty content with my current method. The pellets never make it more than couple layers. I believe this is because the clothes move around and gently accept the pellet, instead of it cutting through them. I spent $10 for the box and the clothes were free. I don’t see it ever really wearing out other than adding more used clothes. I generate a lot of ruined white undershirts, so they are never in short supply.My method is also silent save for the pellet hitting the paper.


                    • StevenG,
                      Hey, if you are happy and it works, there is no reason to fix it!

                      I did omit something on my last post however, I forgot to say to remove the plastic door liner and door gasket. No reply necessary unless you have any questions about the IZH or QB AG’s.

                      Bugbuster


  7. B.B.
    Noticed that this pellet has a rating of 4 for precision & 3 for distance.
    I have a tin of H & N FTT with a rating of 5 for precision & 5 for distance.
    Any chance of you testing this pellet against the H & N FTT @ 25 and 50 yds.
    Thanks
    Pete






          • bb,

            Thanks. “apples to apples” after all. As stated below,…disect one to give everyone a “inside” look as to what’s inside.

            While no pellet expert from any point of view, this has to be one of the greatest break throughs in pellet design in a lot of years,…regardless of how they shoot.

            Short of jamming a bb in a hollow point. Wait,…hey,…what a great idea. πŸ˜‰

            No doubt, you could provide just such a photo.

            Chris



              • Gunfun1,

                Well,..are’nt you the clever one. πŸ˜‰ I did not know that those existed. Well, there goes my idea and my first million $.

                At 11 cents for the HN’s, 8 cents for the Pred. Mtl. Mags and 6.5 cents for these,….they might be a good alternative.

                Ever shot them in .22 yet ? And, what kind of groups did you get, at what yardages, if you happen to remember ?


                • Chris, USA
                  I was only shooting .177 cal. out of my first Discovery I had.

                  They actually grouped good. But… they always would throw a flyer 1 out of 10 shots. And they do seem to be a softer pellet and they splat nice.

                  The 1 out of 10 flyer thing made me learn to start looking for the right pellet back then. I was using the gun for pest control and didn’t like the fact that I was gaurenteed to miss 1 out of 10 shots.

                  Then came the JSB Exact 10.34 grain pellets and I have been hooked on them ever since.


  8. BB / Edith: Is it possible to put me on your “good guy” list so the spam filter doesn’t eat my posts containing URLs? I’d like to post some pictures soon…

    I run a little discussion forum myself (www.dosforum.de) and the last thing I want is to spread spam πŸ™‚

    BTW, H&N calls the Hornet a “hunting pellet”. Hunting with airguns isn’t even allowed here (not sure about Austria or Switzerland) but I guess most people buy them because they think they get Awesome Super Power ™ out of their legal or not so legal springers πŸ™‚


  9. What I’m really waiting for is a reveiw of the new H&N Sniper range, they were made here in the UK by Defiant until Haendler bought the tooling and grain for grain held more downrange energy than almost any other design, and held accuracy well….
    Not sure if they’ve made it to colonial shores as yet though πŸ™‚


  10. Hey BB and all.

    These pellets may be accurate, and that would be great, but I don’t think that is their greatest selling point. I’m pretty sure the makers and marketers have made this pellet to stand out from the competition aesthetically. They would probably rather you described it as a car critic would a new sports car–‘sharp, shiny, dangerous-looking, hot and sexy’.

    I doubt the readers of this forum are overly susceptible to ‘pretty pellets’, but in a world of gray dull lead–I’m pretty sure every little bit of visual improvement helps sales.



    • Mike,

      The Predator Metal Mags tips are not ferrous as I just checked. I’m surprised that the HN’s are not offered in .22, as that would be the more “preferred caliber” for hunting.



  11. @Rob: Yes I think is that or the promise of more power/penetration.

    Personally, I wouldn’t probably buy pointed pellets at all since all I do is punching paper or plinking.

    My Diana 31 really likes the pointed Umarex Cobras though. The other pellets that are as good (or slightly better) are significantly more expensive (JSB Exact, H&N Baracuda).
    The Umarex Mosquito wadcutters are no good at all in the Diana even though they look very similar.
    I have a feeling the HW45 likes the Mosquitoes though…

    I just checked the price of the “Hornets”, btw… They are more than *six* times the price of the Cobras (€ 4,99 per 500 vs. € 15.95 per 225). That unobtainium tip must be really expensive πŸ™‚


  12. B.B.

    Great article and topic! Any chance you could include the H&N Excite Spike Pellets, .177 Cal, 8.64 Grains, Pointed,
    in your review? They seem like the most similar shape but without the brass tip.
    Also why is the H&N Hornet only available in .177? Seems like .22 and .25 would attract more of a hunter crowd.

    Thanks,

    Yogi



      • I just remembered I had some H&N Excite Spikes lying around πŸ™‚

        So, here’s a quick and dirty comparison of H&N Spike (top left), Umarex Cobra (top right), Coal Starter Pointed (bottom left) and JSB Exact (bottom right).

        Each bull has 10 shots on it, shot from my Diana 31 P (1000 fps spring) with a cheap 4×32 scope. I shot from a seated and rested position at 9 meters. I’m a novice shooter, so I guess the three pellets that performed decently could still do better πŸ™‚

        The H&N and Cobras look quite similar. Maybe the Cobras are a bit darker. They are pretty uniform.

        I had just bought the Coal pellets because they are pretty affordable at € 3,50 / 500. They look pretty ragged and non-uniform and apparently they are not all that accurate – at least not in this gun.

        I don’t have to tell you about JSB Exacts πŸ™‚

        https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3-WponaeJmkN0czRnVSZ1Z2d28&authuser=0


  13. I just tested fired 3 Pred. Poly Mags into that thick, grey putty that you find in the electrical aisle.

    The first one, went through 2 plastic container lids. Nice expansion, but no tip found.

    The second one was just into the putty, nice expansion, but no tip found.

    The third was a pellet that I had (re-glued) the tip back in with the thin type super glue. Nice expansion and tip was found ahead of the pellet.

    PA site had comments from users on tips loose in can, I found 3 in 200, and glued them back in.

    Odd, I did find 1 tip on the floor 10′ back from the target. I know for a fact that it came from 1 of the first 2 because I have not shot any at this target or at this direction in the house.

    Bottom line, I will be gluing the tip in place, as a little extra assurance that the tips will stay with the pellet and not come off at impact and/or during flight.

    Chris


  14. I don’t ordinarily test pellets. They are just props for my shooting technique. But I had a surprise chance to test penetration when my Daisy 747 unexpectedly discharged again. That trigger is definitely too light. This is highly mysterious since I’ve never had this problem before. Is it possible for a trigger to lighten over time by itself? I found with this same gun that I was losing power over time. It took one of our most accomplished technicians on the blog to figure out that the castle nut adjustment which controls airflow was “walking” over time, and he had to make modifications to it. I think it’s time to look into this. I don’t think this is the problem, but I wonder if it is possible for a trigger to lighten over time from wear? I’ve never entirely understood the function of the sear. But it seems to involve friction between contact surfaces. Could a light trigger wear into the unsafe range over time?

    As for penetration, I tracked the accidental discharges into the flattened cardboard boxes with which I have lined my shooting room, both to dampen noise and to stop pellets. I found the entrance holes but no damage to my walls, so I guess the pellets did not make it through.

    Chris, my posts used to be considerably longer, and B.B. and Edith recognized me for most prolific person on the blog. Empty barrels make the most noise according to a nun who taught my father in elementary school. πŸ™‚ Well, I find the blog very interesting and am moved to write about various things generally more than I had originally intended. Work has intruded a bit, but at any time my posts could always be scrolled past in a fraction of a second. πŸ™‚

    Matt61


    • Matt61,

      I in fact like your post and have learned a thing or two from them. No offense was ever intended, if in fact some was taken. You seem to be quite the historian as well on guns and war related things. I know little of either.

      You do offer much in the way of related substance to whatever topic is at hand at the moment. My offerings are much more basic.

      Chris


      • No offense taken at all. πŸ™‚ In fact, conversing with other posters is one of the big rewards of the blog. I am plugged into world-class expertise on issues that you could hardly pay for not to mention a very congenial group of people. But I never forget how generous the blog is in tolerating all kinds of conversation. Any place else I would be guilty of hijacking threads and going way off topic. So, I want to make sure that I don’t impose on the blog generosity more than I already have.

        I am interested in a wide variety of things. Military history is a great interest of mine although I have never served or have had any direct experience of it or had any ambition that way. I am more than happy to observe and admire. B.B. once proposed that the inner fascination of airgunning has much to do with modeling, recreating reality on a smaller scale to enjoy and modify. I think that’s very true. Airgunning and related subjects are my way to access and enjoy things that I wouldn’t any more directly.

        The only possible exception would be to take a tactical shooting class from Larry Vickers, former member of Delta Force. Now how cool would that be? I always say learn from the very best. πŸ™‚

        Matt61


        • Matt61,

          I do hope you get your trigger issue figured out. I am wanting to adjust the trigger on the TX. The manual is basic and a fellow reader posted some awesome animations that actually shoe the trigger group in action. Easy, slow, record movements in case you want to re-set to factory settings. One adj. affects the other, so the manual says. It has not “surprised” me for quite awhile.

          As for yours, some lubes will wear harder parts as odd as that sounds. Plus, stoning any trigger group can be risky business unless you are 100% sure of what you are doing. Then, the adjustments,…which the same could be said. ( but, you probably already know that stuff).

          And yeah,…this is a great place to drag a topic into the ditch and back up on the road again. However far astray we go, much is learned. We somehow always seem to get back on track.




  15. BB,

    On the tip being “homongeous”, the Pred. Mtl. Mags seem to be plated or maybe anodized. They can not be cut with a razor blade, When cut with a pair of wire cutters, the inside is silver, not gold as is the outside, and appears to have a “crytaline” appearance as cast or pot metal might have.

    Maybe “slice” one and show that in your next report for an “in depth”, “below the surface” look. I would have done it already, but do not have a camera and would not know how to get the photo to end up here anyways. I’d bet that it would be a real big hit with the readers. Just sayin’.

    Chris


  16. RE: Pointed vs Hollow-point

    Seems that it is both. In terms of external ballistics it “flys” like a pointed pellet, but in regards to terminal ballistics it is a hollow-point.

    In general my notion of the relatively poor ballistics of pointed pellets is due to the impossibility of absolutely centering the point along the ballistic path. Thus a pointed pellet is much more susceptible to aerodynamic forces causing precession.


  17. I’m going to a gun show tomorrow. I was told there will be a number of old Diana 75 target rifles for sale. They are old team rifles. About what is the value range of these rifles. I might pick one up if the price is right. I know that the seals can be bad on this type of old air rifle.

    Mike


    • Mlke,

      While no expert, the latest Air gun Bluebook shows the at 850$ for a pristine 100%, down to 170$ for a 20%. The earliest model started in 1977 and the last ended in 1999 with various models offered through out that time. -10% for left models.

      The % are listed as 100,95,90,80,60,40,20 with $ listed as 850,725,600,500,375,255,170.

      If it were me, and they were in descent condition, I would go 100. Being old Team rifles, I’ll bet they are in the 40% and under range. Hope this helps.

      Chris


    • Mike,

      A like new 75 usually brings $500-600. Club guns have seen a lot of use and should sell for $300 if they have both sights and the front sight inserts.

      Resealing costs $200 and up and can be done by Pyramyd Air.

      A resealed club gun in good condition should fetch $350-400.

      B.B.


      • Thanks Chris and BB! They brought in two guns today. A Walther and a Feiwerkbau from the same club. Both are spring guns. The Walther was $350.00 and the Feiwerkbau is $250.00. I would assume that both would have to be resealed at some point soon even thought both will fire pellets right now. The Diana 75’s may show up tomorrow.

        Mike


  18. G’day BB,
    You have a lead furnace…MP lead around 330’C, MP brass around +900’C to pick metal insert.
    BTY has a cabot ever been tried?
    Cheers Bob



  19. >To my eye, however, the Hornet is a high-tech hollowpoint that has a metal point of
    >different material attached for improved airflow.

    That’s how I see it too, B.B.. In firearms bullets, we call them “ballistic tip hollowpoints.” Furthermore in firearms, I don’t see their impact on bullet performance as ballistic (low drag/improved airflow) so much as expansion-enhancing. Usually they speed expansion or cause the bullet to breakup more quickly (“exploding” varmint bombs ;)). At least they have this effect when they are made of plastic and employed in jacketed lead or copper (Barnes) bullets.



  20. B.B.,

    I read all 9 parts of the BSA Meteor as you suggested. Wow !,..that one really put you through your paces.

    A couple things popped up while reading….when doing the re-crown with the end mill bit, I would have thought that a “burr” would have been created on the inside/end of the muzzle/barrel end.

    The other thing was at the end of Part 9, you said that you thought you might have to “choke the barrel”, but did not. I was curious as to what that would involve as I thought that chokes were used on shotguns to control the tightness of the shot as it exited the barrel.

    Thanks, Chris


    • Chris,

      The end mill cuts flat and should not leave a burr on the crown. It didn’t seem to.

      Choked rifle barrels go back to the 1890s, at least. They were made by Harry Pope — the Stradivarius of rifle barrels. Here are a few reports on it:

      /blog/2005/06/does-a-choked-barrel-improve-air-rifle-accuracy/

      /blog/2014/04/why-choke-a-barrel/

      /blog/2011/12/choked-bores-and-tapered-bores/

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        Thank you for the links. I read all 3 and learned a lot and made notes. I need to search the site more before bothering you. When I try it though, I usually come up with less than pin point results.

        You must have quite a system to pull up past related articles that quickly. The “catagories” helps, but often it’s too much and too off topic on finding a specific item of interest. But, where else is a person going to find this much info. on airgunning?…No where.

        Thanks, Chris


  21. Here’s another comparison of the H&N Excite Spikes, Umarex Cobra, Coal Starter Pointed and JSB Exact.

    This time, I used my 1973 FWB 300S.

    Top left: Excite Spike, top right: Umarex Cobra, bottom left: Coal Starter Pointed, bottom right: JSB Exact.

    The H&N and Umarex are still doing quite well. The JSB is usually excellent in this rifle, but I didn’t manage to shoot a very good group.

    The Coal pellets… made good use of the available space. The one that almost hit the center must have been a flyer πŸ™‚

    I notice that I tend to tire when trying to shoot 40 very accurate shots in a row. Not physically, but mentally.

    My verdict (which might be wrong) would be that the Umarex and H&N are totally fine. They look very similar anyway, but the H&N are a little more expensive since you only get 400 for € 4,99 whereas with the Umarex you get 500.

    The JSB are more expensive at € 7,95 but they are also probably a bit better still.

    The Coal would be a bargain at € 3,45 if you could actually hit anything with them. I guess you could fire them out of a shotgun and get the same group size, only with less efort πŸ™‚

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3-WponaeJmkdVp4SXJ1THgzRHM/view?usp=sharing


  22. Edith and B.B.,

    I was just researching another air rifle, looking at all options. All $$$$.

    Very upsetting was that for near everything, 90%, only gun/scope combos were offered.

    I want just the gun and not the scope. I want to (choose) the scope.

    No mention was made of just the gun price. No options. The combo, or nothing. Nothing is free, so in that combo, the scope price is built in somewhere.

    Really, I’m at a loss for words. I do not remember this tactic when shopping for the TX200.

    I sent PA an e-mail but was not sure how to put the address in the address book so that I would be sure to get the response. I have recieved e mails before from PA so maybe I am ok. Plus, blog responses show up.

    I tried to get just rifles to show up, but all I kept getting was combo after combo, with very few exceptions.

    Chris


    • Chris,

      Yes, manufacturers want to charge more, so they give you a scope with your gun. Generally speaking, they don’t offer very good scopes with these combos, but it LOOKS like you’re getting a lot for your buck. Guns with open sights seem to be disappearing very fast.

      Edith


      • Edith’

        Thank you for your response. I understand the marketing stand point of things.

        And yes, I am aware, (thanks to this site), that the scopes offered with these packages are not the best.

        I guess,… from my point of view,… an educated consumers point of view,… that I want to buy a rifle,.. and then choose the scope that will go with it. Plain, simple, not hard to grasp.

        Plus,..there is the matter of waste. Waste of a scope I won’t use,.. and waste of my money for paying for something that I was forced to buy.

        Bottom line, PA can market all the combos they want, but DO NOT force the customer into buying something they do not want.

        Plain and simple, show a combo to cut down on site space and move less than desirable scopes, BUT, also list the price of just the gun.

        This is (bad) marketing from an informed consumers point of view.

        ((Please, do not take anything I say personally. You and BB are great)). Apparently the higher ups at PA got there own ideas of marketing.

        Thank you, Chris


        • Chris,

          Pyramyd Air isn’t forcing scopes on anyone!

          It’s the manufacturers, importers, vendors and distributors who are forcing mediocre scopes to be mounted on guns. Retailers such as Pyramyd Air don’t make these decisions. The scoped guns come that way from the suppliers. Retailers order what’s available. If the stuff doesn’t sell well, they don’t reorder. If enough people order guns that don’t come with scopes, then the suppliers will eventually get the message and start supplying guns without scopes. Until that happens, retailers will have to accept the products they can order. They can’t tell suppliers to keep their scopes and send just the guns.

          Edith


          • Edith,

            Thank you for opening my eyes to that fact. {I apologize} and failed to remember that PA is a distributer.

            The last thing I will say on the matter is this,….PA ,and this Blog, do an (invaluable service) to educating new and old airgunners alike. The flip side to that coin is that the consumers,..the now educated consumers,…will see…

            I do not know any other way of putting it. I will continue to shop PA and upon deciding on a purchase, I will simply call and ask for just the rifle price. Not sure how well that will work, but we’ll see.

            Thank you and again sorry,..Chris


            • Chris,

              That won’t work. What are they gonna do? Sell guns without scopes & then eat the price of the scopes that didn’t ship with the guns? You can’t go into a big box store and say I don’t want all the items packaged in this sealed box. Please open the sealed box, remove the scope and sell me just the gun — but at a discounted price.

              Edith


              • Edith,

                Thanks again and sorry again. Good point you made.

                Maybe a topic at the next “board meeting”. For the “manufacturers”, this is definitly not a move in the right direction.

                Maybe a “massive” scope “Blowout” sale instead? My guess that the scopes with combos are being blown out the door for cost anyways.

                Thanks again, Chris


          • Edith,

            Either you or Tom said the manufacturers regularly read this blog. I hope that they read this one. I believe that the manufacturers are hurting themselves with the scope combos.

            Several months ago I ordered a rifle scope combo. The scope did not last 300 shots. I will say that the company promptly replaced the scope but I never mounted the replacement on that rifle since I did not believe it would hold up.

            The rifle scope combo got a one star rating on PA because of the scope. If I had been rating just the rifle, the rifle would have received a five star rating. Is the one star rating fair? I believe so. The scope sold with the rifle was inadequate for the recoil of a magnum springer. The manufacturer should have known this and either offered the product without a scope or included an adequate scope as part of the combo.

            Jim


            • Jim,

              I know they read the blogs, but I’m not sure they read the comments.

              I think giving a gun/scope combo a one-star rating due to scope failure is fair. Think about a car. What if the car’s steering mechanism stopped working after 1 month? Oh, the rest of the car is beautiful and works perfectly, but you can’t use it without a steering mechanism! Same thing with a gun that has no open sights. You can replace the steering mechanism just like you can replace the scope on the gun, but I wouldn’t trust the manufacturer’s part the second time around.

              Edith


              • That seems a bit overly harsh.

                The scope-combo seems more to me like complaining because the 50 mile limited use compact spare tire failed in 49 miles, requiring one to buy a full-size spare tire for usage.

                Okay, still not quite appropriate — and I’d agree that preference would be rifle-only, ad-hoc third-party scope… (I was tempted to make a simile about trashing the car because a promotional set of golf clubs that came in the trunk fell apart from use)


                • Wulraed,

                  Bad, cheap, easily broken, 50 or 100 yds fixed parallax, foggy, crooked reticle . . . these are just a few of the comments I’ve read on customer reviews when it comes to some scoped combos. Not all combos come with bad scopes, but people will trash a gun based on a bad scope. Some people separate the good from the bad and may grade only the gun.

                  It’s not that the scope is low quality, it’s that the manufacturer knew the scope was poor quality and/or would break and/or wasn’t appropriate for the gun’s use, yet they opted to put it on the gun anyway. Again, this is a minority of manufacturers, but some do not learn.

                  Edith


  23. A quick search of the Net shows that the Feiwerkbau at today’s gun show is a 300 S. Asking price was $250.00 as noted in the post above. The Walther is a LGR match rifle, $350.00. Both have the sights.

    Which may be the better rifle?

    Mike


    • MIke,

      Can’t help you on “the best”. The “Blue Book” says this though….

      LGR (ask 350) % 80,60,40 $375,285,200 mfgr. ’74~’89 last MSR 1250.00

      300S (ask 250) % 80,60,40 $425,325,n/a disc. circa 1996, last MSR 1235.00

      For both guns, it says add 100% for a “Running Boar” model, but could not find out what that means.

      The Blue Book is great and packed full of info. I got it for general reading and to have on hand in case I see something for sale.

      Chris


      • Running boar is a shooting discipline where the target is moving on a rail. I think it’s called that because the target used to look like an actual boar.

        There is a variant of the 300S for that discipline. The german designation for it is “laufende Scheibe” (running target).


      • Thanks Chris, very helpful. At this gun show, there was “0” interest in these rifles so far. I am going to take a look at them again today. Shooting one of them would be fun. πŸ™‚

        Mike


      • Chris,

        BB did a post on that on March 25, 2008. As far a I know the loading port of an Anschutz is tilted to the right for faster loading necessary for that discipline. I suppose that it is the same for a FWB or Walter.

        August


        • August,

          Thank you for that. I looked it up and read every bit of it. I imagine that it would be quite hard and take much practice and dedication. Fascinating!

          Nice recall !!,… on coming up with a relevant (pin point) article on the “Running Boar” question previously asked.

          Chris


    • Mike,

      Both the 300S and LGR were world-class competition rifles in their day. They are equal in capability. Both have known problems with their seals, but once replaced, both will last for many decades. And both are killer prices.

      B.B.


      • I’d really like to see a comparison of a recoil-compensated vintage rifle with a modern PCP match rifle.

        I guess I won’t ever be good enough to appreciate that difference, but it still would be interesting to see if the newer ones shoot that much more accurately.

        What colour are the original FWB 300 seals btw? My ’73 one had a beige breech seal and it still worked although it was starting to crumble badly. I serviced it some months ago and replaced all the worn parts. There’s a very good guide on the German co2air forums but it still took me a while due to the complex mechanism.
        If the German “experts” are right, I won’t have to open it again for 30 or 40 years πŸ™‚

        Somebody must have tinkered with the gun before because it had two identical springs in it. Now it does again, but it’s possible that the seals had been replaced before.



      • Hello “BB”…
        Greatly enjoy your articles over the last 2 years… which is how long ago I got into this “disease” they call Airgunning !! lol I’m 65 and just bought my first AG in July of 2013 (HW80 in .22)… and now own 15 air rifles, with another to be coming from PA very soon, on a “return” (Hatsan 135 in .25) that wasn’t shooting real well (4″+ “groups @ only 20yds).. and though I wanted a .25 cal springer.. am opting for a RWS 48 in .22.

        My question to you is (forgive me for going off subject, don’t know how to start a “new” subject)… what are your thoughts (if any) on the Chinese Xisico 28M (.25 cal), 46U (.22 cal underlever) and the XS60C in .22 cal.(1500psi pcp) as sold by Tuner, Mike Melick (I’ve read that he is Very “highly regarded” by Many)… or, any of the Xisico Brand that he handles, especially if they purchased with a “full tune” by him ??

        One other question, in regards to the RWS 48’s… is “barrel droop” still an “issue” with the “modern” RWS’ or, is that a thing of the “past”, and is there any issues with the newest AG’s coming from RWS, since the new owners have taken over, that your aware of ??

        Thank you for your time and all that you have done, and continue to do for all things related to our sport… it’s Greatly Appreciated (even by “ole duffers” who are “newbie’s”… like me : ) !!

        PS: One more… what are your thoughts on hunting small game WITHIN 35 – 40yrds with a .22 cal -vs- .25 cal, in a “springer”??…. and are there ANY .25 cal springers, that you would recommend within that shooting range… or is the .22 cal a “better” all around choice ?? Thanks again for your time & consideration.

        Jim (MaverickDoorGunner – VN)


        • Jim,

          To make a comment without having to reply to someone else’s comment, go all the way to the bottom of the page where you see all the comments. You’ll see a comment box waiting for you.

          Regarding small game hunting: Have you read the Ethical airgun hunting article B.B. wrote? It’s located at the top of the blog page, just below the Airgun Academy banner logo. If you want to make comments on that article, please do so in the regular blog (we welcome off-topic comments).

          B.B. will answer your other questions.

          Thanks,
          Edith


          • Hi Edith,

            Than you So much for your reply, I appreciate your help on that. I have Not read BB’s particular article on “Ethical airgun hunting”, though I have read a number of related pieces, “out there” on the net,
            etc… however, I will read his after posting this reply to you. Thank you again for the info you provided, very helpful.

            Take good care and have a wonderful day,
            Jim


        • Jim,

          Welcome to the blog!

          I have tested Mike’s PCP conversion and written about it for Shotgun News. The full article will be up on my website someday:

          http://www.thegodfatherofairguns.com

          I may test the Chinese springers someday, but right now I am too backed up with other guns to test.

          Yes, the Diana 48 does have barrel droop.

          I prefer the .22 to the .25 in springers for hunting because they are more accurate. Yes .25 PCPs have arrived, but the springers are not accurate yet, in my opinion.

          B.B.


          • BB,

            Thank You !!… it’s nice to be “here”, vast amounts of valuable information on here, and GREATLY appreciated.

            I agree with you in regards to your point about the .25 having “arrived” but not accurate enough yet.

            Before the Hatsan 135 that I returned to PA last week (due to arrive there, today), I had tried a “Turkish” Patriot (last year, actually) in .25 also… same issue as the 135, could not get it group at anything tighter than about 3″ at 25 yrds…. and that, just will not “do”.
            Before anyone “jumps on this”, I do Very well, with the “artillery hold” as I also have the aforementioned HW 80, an RWS 48 (.177), RWS 460(.22), etc, etc, and have No problem getting tight groups from any of them within the 25 – 35 yrds or so, that I normally shoot. I also have amassed quite a large collection of pellet Brands, weights & types, in each of the four calibers from .177 to .25, to use in my acquired (so far) airgun collection, so that I can find the best shooting & grouping pellet(s) for each gun and for different yardages.

            The “Patriot” also had some QC issues, that seem to plague anything from Hatsan (and many other lower end ag’s as well).

            I returned that one back to PA as well, and “upgraded” to an MRod in .25 cal…. a world of difference, however I do Not like the idea of being “tied to a life support system”…. and so, I keep watching for the day that a springer will be revealed that is Truly “worthy” of the caliber….. and I think “something” in Spring “technology” is going to have to change, other than just installing springs that do little more than create violent recoil and totally unpleasant shooting experiences….. and I’m Not saying that springs need to be done away with, by any means… and I think that “gas rams” amount to nothing more than a “band aid” fix, at best… IMHO.

            I do know that there is “technology” out there in regards to spring design… that could greatly help reduce the “violence” of the current genre of springs being utilized by many AG manufacturers…. and if nothing else, I think it’s long overdue for someone from the AG manufacturing sector to actually “sit down” with a major “producer” of springs, one that is aggressive, in the development of spring & material technologies and that possesses the resources to do so, and come to a real understanding of the “needs” of AG’s and what is desired, and actually produce springs that are truly designed for the specific usage of airguns and the for the varied calibers.

            Spring rates, design & “characteristics” are Hugely varied, and I know from what “little” I’ve researched & studied on the subject since coming into this sport, that there is a LOT of room for development to be had in this area, and yet.. to this day, pretty much left untouched. It “seems” that, for the most part… AG mfgr’s have been content with just using “off the shelf” straight coil design springs of variable lengths, wire diameter and stiffness….. rather than actually conversing with those who would be in a place of aforementioned aggressive spring technology development for specific usages.

            I believe that, if that were to take place, we could begin to see powerful .25 cal springers, with Far better shooting characteristics than the current crop of “violent” shooting, ag’s that we’re currently saddled with….. and the same could be said with quite a number of “magnum” springers of smaller calibers, as well.

            It’s time that people of “influence” from Both sides of the isle, come together and for the spring technology side of it, to be able to came away with a clear understanding of the needs of the air gun industry… and actually work Together as ongoing technology progresses on both sides.

            There is no question that the power of airguns has gained monumental strides, especially since the 1980’s…. but, because of the lack of correct spring technology particularly suited to the application….the industry has also rendered us ag’s that have also become much more “violent” in the the shooting cycle as well.

            I am aware of the aftermarket spring kits (I installed a Vortec PG2 in my HW 80… love it)…. and yes, while they do provide “better” characteristics…. I think there remains, yet untapped technology within the spring industry, that would potentially provide great strides
            towards far better shooting experiences, while having the advantages of powerful, larger “small calibers” at the same time.

            Just my thoughts on the subject….. I’m more than sure, that with all your years of experience in the AG sport and also, exposure to those at the manufacturing level, you have some unique insights as to what has (IF, any) taken place in regards to any level of co-operation & communication between the two sectors, and at what level… again, IF any…. other than “apparently” just utilizing “off the shelf” stiffer & stiffer springs. Your thoughts & experienced insights on this, I would Greatly value.

            Thanks again, “BB”.. and have a wonderful.
            Jim


            • Jim,

              My late friend, Mac was very impressed with his BSA Supersport in .25 caliber. It was getting over 600 f.p.s. and was very accurate, to boot. So I think it is possible for a spring gun to be good in .25 — I just have’t seen one besides my Whiscombe JW 75 that’s no longer made.

              B.B.


          • Hello Again, BB…

            I just finished writing you back (albeit, lengthy) a reply, and it just “disappeared” on me… without being posted !! Now I have other things to tend to, and don’t have the time to rewrite all that I wrote about. Not sure what happened there, but.. I do know that I wasted time as a result.

            Interesting what you said about the “48’s” barrel droop… when I talked to Tyler P. at PA last week, before he headed to the gun show and I asked him that same question concerning it…. and he told me, that “there’s no problem with it on the fixed barrels, especially…… “. Now I’m confused…. which is it ?? Do the 48’s have a “issue” with barrel droop, or do they Not ?

            In your experienced opinion… If you were to purchase a currently available “fixed barrel” springer… what would be your choice & why? Also, under or side lever ? Any real advantage to either, or is it just a matter of preference & positional shooting style, that would dictate, either / or ??

            Thank you, again… I greatly value your expertise & years of acquired knowledge…. and, your devoted willingness to share it with all of us.

            A wonderful day to yourself & your wife,
            Jim



  24. Well back from the gun show. They didn’t get the Diana rifles there. No problem. With some more searching of the net, it turns out that the Walther is a LGM-2 with a laminated stock. It has an FWB rear sight and a front with an adjustable aperture. It has a silver weight on the end of the barrel that is around/under the front sight. I made an offer of $300.00 which was accepted.

    I have shot a dozen pellets so far. The rifle is awesome. The trigger is two stage and is very, very, very light.
    Did I say it was light? It seems to be working but I will have to shoot it through the chronograph to see what velocity it is giving. It sure looks good so far!

    Oh, I also won the door prize of a .22 LR pistol!

    Some days you eat the bear!!

    Mike


    • MIke,

      Congrats’ on the the rifle and door prize !

      How about some pics if you can do? The Blue Book does not show your rifle, but does list it. Do it on a current page if you do.

      Some of those laminated stocks are beautiful, but really no more than plywood. The color variations can be awesome.

      Chris


  25. I personally haven’t had good luck shooting pointed pellets whether at 10 meters or worse at 30 meters. The best performing we’re the RWS points but they were all over the place on the target shooting from a rested position.

    It will be interesting to read about your follow up testing.


  26. Just thought i;d through my two cents in try a section of tree stump 12 to 14inches long nail a piece of 1x6on the side neer the end andlay it on its side so it doesent role a nail neer the top(finishing nail ) to hold your target.10 to 12 inches across should do fine have been shooting mine for about 4 years now


  27. Mr. B.B.

    The improvement in my marksmanship is the results of your guidance.( I still think I owe you tuition)
    I found something very useful about pellet sizing and separating flyers before hand I’d like to share with you and all, although I’m sure you’re aware of this I just found it an hour ago and just passing it along.
    This web address is correct I’ve checked it six times ( Pellet head sizing difinitive discrimination)

    T.T.

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1301745606/Pellet+head+sizing++difinitive+discrimination++for+Jamie%2C+Tony%2C+Herb%2C++and+all+interested


    • T.T.,

      I remember that there were some field target shooters who rolled pellets to determine which ones would deliver the most accuracy, and that was in the 1990s. It looks like that method still has some followers.

      Edith


  28. Tom:
    Pardon my ignorance, but these trials of pellet performance have always presented themselves to provide somewhat of a mystery to me. Mostly, whatever the results happen to be, whenever ten pellets group tightly into a target, you, and other reviewers seem giddy to report those results in a most positive light. In the case of the ten shots presented in this review, the Air Arms Falcon pellets shot at 25 yards which show a .403″ spread c to c, I see the result from another perspective. Assuming that you were using iron sights (you don’t say?), and that your point of aim was the center of the bull, then you missed the point of aim ten times out of ten, by approximately one inch high and to the right, didn’t you? What’s so good about that? Shouldn’t you sight in a gun prior to “firing for effect”?
    deerflyguy


    • Deerflyguy,

      Welcome to the blog.

      I purposely don’t aim for the center of the bull because it destroys my aim point when I hit there. I am looking for the best consistency I can get — that all pellets going to the same place. I can always change where that place it by simply adjusting the sights.

      I used to compete in air pistol and then I was very interested in hitting the center of the bull. But we shot only one shot per bull because it is too difficult to measure multiple hits.

      Maybe I need to do a blog about this?

      B.B.


  29. I find the article and testing procedures quite good, but I have a question that I found not referenced in any of the comments.

    My question is about penetration and deflection by feathers and down. My primary targets are bird pests AKA pigeons and doves. For those who immediately get irate about my calling doves pests, in the country they are good game birds and good to eat, but in the city, they live up to the fact that they are simply another species of pigeon. I raise chickens, ducks and peacocks and since I started shooting the birds, who were not invited to a free lunch, my feed bill has been cut in half!

    I find that many times, the pellet will hit solid enough to knock the bird over and leave a cloud of feathers and down floating in the air, but then it will fly away like nothing happened. I refer to it as them wearing their body armor!

    Am I close? Does a dove’s feathers and chest down offer sufficient protection and deflection capabilities if the pellet hits at a slight angle, or is it simply that some have more will to live? Some drop dead or flop a few times before dieing, while others hit in the same spot shrug it off and fly away. I’m relatively new to pellet guns since city ordinances (and good common sense) won’t allow me to use my gunpowder powered artillery. (I have fired in many military, law enforcement and civilian pistol and rifle matches over the years, so am rather proficient in the use of firearms.)

    I use the included 4×32 Stoeger scope and can hold on target through recoil. At those ranges, I can see the exact impact point. I have watched the pellet impact and then gouge a line from the front around to the side through the feathers. The chest of a bird is not flat, having a raised breastbone in the center and the chest angled away to either side. This means that at most angles, a pellet is hitting a “sloped” surface. I have more “deflections” with the lighter (7.1 gr) pellets than the 9.6 gr ones that I tried, but the heavier ones are much more expensive and have to be ordered. The lighter ones are available locally and fit into my now SSI income better.

    Of course, there are times when the pellet simply disappears into Neverland, but I write that off to pilot error. I periodically bench test to insure the zero, so it always shoots as accurately as my skill allows. My normal 25 yard bench groups are dime to nickle sized and offhand, standing, they stay within 1″ to 35 yards.

    The dead birds do not go to waste, as we have a registered feral cat community on our property. The cats leave our fowl alone, (although we make sure to protect any new hatchlings) but devour any pest birds they can catch, or are given. My cat food bill also varies according to the number of birds that come into the yard.


    • D. P. Allen,

      You have discovered a good reason for shooting a .22 caliber pellet. It makes a bigger hole and that has a more noticeable affect on all game.

      People who don’t hunt birds have little appreciation for how tough feathers are to penetrate.

      B.B.


  30. Tom I have enjoyed your articles most all my life and have been a collector of air guns since I was kid working for farmers to buy them and you are one of the greatest reasons for the growth of this sport or as for many of us an addiction .I guess I just wanted to say thank you from one addict to another ..


    • Addiction? What addiction?
      Thirty months ago, I owned three highly unsophisticated air guns.
      Now the count is up to 33 – a large amount being rather expensive European types – many being glassed, of course!
      God help me! I haven’t even bought my first pcp gun yet!
      I’m going to have to stop reading this blog – and everything else that has the word “air” in it’s description!



        • I am in total agreement of your prognosis, which is why I haven’t made that critical “turn for the worse”. I shall attempt to curtail my investments by making do with what I already have. The critical word here is “attempt”!


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