by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The Gletcher Mosin Nagant 1891 CO2 BB rifle (gun) is extremely realistic.
This report covers:
- The 1891 Mosin Nagant
- The test
- The sights
- Daisy BBs
- Black Diamond BBs
- Crosman Copperhead BBs
- Overall evaluation
April is a busy month for me. I’ll be attending the Findlay, Ohio, airgun show this Saturday, April 11; then next week, I’ll be filming American Airgunner episodes for 4 days in Arkansas. A few days after returning, I’m driving to the Malvern, Arkansas, airgun show held April 24-25. I’ll be selling a lot of vintage airguns at the Malvern show. If you can attend either of those shows, please stop by my table and say hello.
I’m also planning this year’s Texas Airgun Show, which will be held in Poolville, Texas, on Saturday, August 29. We plan to have everything that was at last year’s show, plus a big bore airgun match that’s new. We also plan to have a special filming of the Round Table for American Airgunner the evening before the show. This will be an event the public is invited to, which means you’ll get to watch us put together a segment of the show. What takes 3 minutes on-screen often takes a hour to film, plus you can watch us do all the stuff that never makes it to the air.
This airgun show planning has me attending meetings all over north Texas in the coming months. All the things on my schedule will keep me from going to the range for several weeks. My shooting will have to be done at home, plus I’ll write reports that don’t require me to go to the range.
Before I begin today’s report, I want to update you on some other reports I’m working on. Blog reader Azhar has waited patiently for a very long time to see a report on shooting heavyweight pellets in an air rifle. I’ve actually done some testing for that report and have determined that no pellet gun short of the AirForce Condor or Escape is going to be suitable. The other guns simply lack the power to stabilize these solid pellets, which are really bullets by another name. I’m gathering all the heavyweight pellets I can for this test, but it will have to wait until I can get out to the range, again.
I also have a test to positively determine if the Diana Bullseye Zero Recoil scope mount works as advertised. And there’s a whole lot more I’m putting into that report. Some of you thought that any mount that moved would have to be inaccurate, and I hope to show you why that isn’t the case. To properly test the ZR mount, I have to get out to the range, so at least the last part of that report will also have to wait. I should get the first part done before then.
At both airgun shows, I hope to do a little fantasy shopping — looking for super bargains that anyone who attends could have bought. I always do that at airgun shows. I also hope to score a couple airguns we haven’t looked at yet and use them for blogs during the coming year.
That’s enough. Let’s get to the report.
The 1891 Mosin Nagant
Owners of the Mosin Nagant 1891 CO2 BB Rifle are almost unanimous in their praise for the realism of this gun. The majority opinion on this blog, however, is that this is the wrong airgun. Most readers think Gletcher should have built a Mosin Nagant rifle with a full-sized stock.
The test
I shot the gun off the UTG Monopod rest at 5 meters (16 feet, 4 inches). The gun holds very oddly, and it took some time to find a good hold. I finally rested the butt against my cheek, where the sights looked sharp against the target. I have to say this is not a gun to shoot at targets! It feels really unnatural.
The sights
As I tested the airgun for accuracy, I used the sights for the first time. The rear sight on this replacement gun is just as loose as the sight on the first one. While it does adjust up and down, there’s no possibility for windage adjustments.
While some owners have reported that the sights are plastic, they’re actually metal. I had a person hold mine and commented that they are plastic, but I know better. To test whether an item is plastic or metal, touch it with your lips or tongue. If it is cold, it’s metal. Plastic will feel neutral or warm when tested this way.
Daisy BBs
I began with Daisy Premium Grade BBs. The sights were set too low, so I used the first 10 shots to get used to shooting the gun as I adjusted the sights. Unfortunately, the gun also shot to the left, and there was no correcting for that.
The second group of 10 Daisy BBs went into 2.699 inches between centers. Yes, you read that right — 2.699 inches! The picture tells the story best.
Ten Daisy BBs made this 2.699-inch group at 16 feet! The tenth BB is at the top of the group, halfway off the paper (arrow).
Those who have read this blog for a month or more know that I can shoot better than this. This is not me — it’s the gun.
Hornady Black Diamond BBs
Next up were 10 Hornady Black Diamond BBs. I didn’t expect them to doo much better than the Daisys — and they didn’t. Ten made a group that measures 2.865 inches! Nothing much I can say about that.
Ten Hornady Black Diamond BBs made this 2.865-inch group at 16 feet.
Crosman Copperhead BBs
I decided to try Crosman Copperhead BBs next. I’ve seen them be more accurate in some BB guns, although that’s not usually the case. Still, it was worth a try.
Ten Copperhead BBs went into 3.166 inches at 5 meters. One of the BBs landed off the paper so the target only has 9 holes.
Ten Crosman Copperhead BBs made this 3.166-inch group at 16 feet. The final BB landed off the target paper where the arrow points.
Overall evaluation
I think Gletcher should have released a BB gun with a rifle-length stock and perhaps not made this model at all. Maybe it’s popular as an airsoft gun (if they make one), but I doubt it’ll ever be very popular as a steel BB gun.
It needs too many improvements. It needs a rear sight that doesn’t move around. It also needs the ability to adjust the sights for windage, for problems like we see in today’s test. But most of all, it needs a tighter barrel for improved accuracy. I can outshoot it with almost any BB handgun I have tested, and that’s a pretty broad statement.
If what you want is a gun that feels like a firearm, this will suffice. Just don’t try to hit anything with one.
B.B., I went to Malvern, Arkansas Show last year! I know in past years it was a hot show!! But? Don’t know if I’ll go this year? I have been to some Very Big Shows in past and some of the smaller one’s! I have driven long distance to be able to spend a couple of hours at a show? Just hope you do well at the show! Thank you for your contributions and education to the the airgun world!! Semper fi!
J.Lee,
I missed Malvern the past 2 years. But this year I have quite a few vintage guns to sell and malvern is the only show I can drive to before our Texas show on August 29.
B.B.
Hi Tom,I hope all is well with you.I read on the Gletcher web page they
are going to have the full size version out soon.
I have the small size one and I like it very much.It’s not a power house
but I bought it for my collection.
I would like to know if the Webley Alectro Ultra was discontinued I
haven’t seen on PA’S Site.Thanks
MICHAEL MACHAEL,
I believe it was discontinued.
Tom
B.B.,
Did you get that info from industry folks? I ask because a month or so ago the long version was not on Gletcher’s site, but then I noticed it appearing afterwards,suggesting they still have plans for it.
It seems to me that with a more stable (i.e. a full buttstock) piece of furniture and a replacement front site this could be an OK shooter.
Michael
Michael,
I have a picture of one taken at this year;s SHOT Show. But it was in a knockoff booth that I will not show.
B.B.
You are correct. But, looks like the same sight. Hope they “fix” the sight and accuracy. It doesn’t have to be a tack driver, but you’d think a full size one would out shoot my red ryder! Also, as of now, they list the velocity as the same as the shorter version. You’d think it would shoot harder in a “long barrel” (dare I say rifle LOL). When Umarex and Crosman both list 600 fps for bb “rifles” (there is that word again). http://gletcherguns.com/shop/air-guns/m1944.html
“If what you want is a gun that feels like a firearm, this will suffice. Just don’t try to hit anything with one.”
Tom, I don’t know if I think that is sound advice. After all this model of gun weighs in at over 5 1/2 pounds. So it might actually make a passable, if oddly shaped, club. 😛
Kidding aside… If it won’t shoot any better than that, I don’t think it would be worth the money. Even if someone wants a BB gun that looks/feels like a firearm since there are better shooting options.
J.
I am fortunate in the respect that I never had any interest in this gun. However I don’t like to see a manufacturer blow money any more than I want to.
BB, are you bringing anything to the Findlay show to sell?
Derrick,
Unfortunately, no. I’m flying in because of my schedule. I have to film the airgun show the next week.
B.B.
Gottcha. Sounds like a repeat of last year.
Hi,
I got sad news: Diana will stop its production in Mellrichstadt. Diana was purchased by GSG (part of the L&o group) in 2014, and now it appears they will close the door of the Diana factory. Their products will certainly continue to be manufactured, but don’t ask me where…
Hi Mel,
This is news that I wanted confirmed,thanks. Who are the new owners? Are they also German? How sad that even a top brand like this has to sell out. Wonder if they will maintain the legendary quality quirks aside. BTW can you tell me if their model 350 is a good gun. The original is available here & my friend wants to buy it. Also, should the scope be shimmed for droop?
Errol
The new owner is “GSG” (German Sports guns), which is a manufacturer of replica firearms chambered in .22. It is part of the huge L&O holding, which consists of Sig Sauer, Blaser, Mauser, Swiss arms etc etc.
About the Diana 350…I live in Germany, where only 7.5 joule rifles are legal. So I have no first hand experience of it. I personally like Diana airguns with their new T06 trigger, but not so much the ones with the older T05 trigger.
The Diana 350 is very large, beautiful and well made. Also, it is very reasonable priced in the USA. If you want its power (and the problems associated powerful springers), get it. If you want to shoot all day, get a Weihrauch Hw 50s or a Diana 34 with t06 trigger.
Thanks for the info Mel. I live in Sri Lanka & we have the full power version. It will be used for small game & pest control. Will brief my friend. He can decide.
Errol
This is why I continue to be disappointed in replica guns that shoot only BBs, though most manage to do a lot better than this. And I know that many of the recent pistol replicas are coming from airsoft manufacturers that are already used to producing guns for BBs. But only accurate guns are interesting! 😉
B.B.,
When you get to the Bullseyey ZR test, can you estimate the MOA declination of the mount? I’ve continued to look for Picatinny/Weaver MOA mounts and bases for the barrel droop on my Crosman MTR177NP and have found a number of them, nearly all costing more than the gun and many costing more than scope and gun combined! With only one exception (cheap BSA mounts that do not review well) they are all for military applications and are priced as such.
I’d actually considered forking out the cash for one of those bad boys, but the one piece bases have the rings set too far apart to accommodate the compact scope I’m planning to use. (Same for the Bullseye mount it appears). The standard size scope in the same series, which would actually fit the one piece mounts, only has half the elevation adjustment of the compact scope so I’m actually better off with compact scope alone when I run the numbers, even with a 40 MOA mount. Neither solution will compensate enough for a gun that hits a foot low at only 10 yards. Looks like I’ll have to shim.
HS,
I’ll do my best.
B.B.
HiveSeeker,
Have you researched the Burris Signature Z rings? With the plastic pos-align offset inserts (available separately) which come in sets of three with .005″, .010″, and .020″ offsets, you could do as much as a +.020″ on the rear saddle and a -.010″ on the front, If that is not enough, you will need a second set of inserts so you could go +.020″ and -.020″. All this with no bind on the scope tube! The only possible problem that I can foresee is the actual construction of the Z ring saddle in relation to your plastic rail. It is a solid piece with a slot cut in it on one side so it can collapse against the sides of the rail when the clamp screw is tightened. If your rail is too wide, it may not slide on easily and that is the only way it goes on! I believe that they also make the Signature rings in a two piece configuration which has a separate side clamp but they are more expensive. Good luck!
Bugbuster
Bugbuster,
Major thanks!! I remember someone mentioning these some time back when the same topic came up, but completely forgot! They did not turn up in any of my searches for MOA rings. I’m still researching but these do look like they will work, or at least help. Much appreciated!
HiveSeeker,
Your welcome. I have not personally used the Signature rings, that is the series with the inserts, but I have used the Z rings themselves which is the identical construction w/o the inserts. From the research I have done on them, it is said that you are able to totally zero your scope with them, windage and elevation, without having to adjust the the turrets themselves. I believe that it would be a slow and tedious process though, a real PIA. It sounds to me that you are mounting maybe a UTG Bugbuster which has only about 3.25″ available for the rings as opposed to a 4″ + spacing for most other (non compact) scopes. I really believe that these rings will solve your problem.
I had a similar problem myself over twenty years ago, only in reverse. I had purchased a Harris McMillian .50 BMG bolt action repeater which came with the “long range weaver base” which was milled with .110″ taper over 6.5″. I had a Weaver T-16 scope mounted on it with the 1″ Burris Z rings and when I rough sighted it in at 50 yards with M2 AP ammo, it was impacting the target 14.5″ high and the scope was depressed to the max! At a thousand yards, using M33 ball ammo, it still shot too high until I switched ammo. The M2 AP and the M33 ball weigh on average around 650 grains, once I switched to some match ammo which was a solid bronze 750 grain SBT, which shot lower due to the additional weight and consequently lower MV, I was able to adjust. Unfortunately, at this point I was in the first stage of the five shots for record match and dropped two rounds off the target!
Bugbuster
Bugbuster,
Thank you, thank you, thank you! The Burris Signature Zee rings worked. It was a 30mm scope and the inserts only allowed +/-0.01″ compensation each (0.02″ total), but it was enough to put my crosshairs on the bull using a very comfortable 60% of the scope’s available vertical adjustment. (The 1″ rings have available inserts that allow up to 0.02″ adjustment for each ring.)
You were right that the one-piece ring bases were a tight fit. They barely slipped on the Picatinny rail, and slightly grooved part of the forend / barrel guard when I slipped them on the open end. The new rings have all Torx screws (including the bases), and now have four screws holding each ring top on.
They did change the horizontal adjustment to the right, but it was well within the scope’s available windage. The only complaint that I came across on these (outside of not as many adjustment inserts available for the 30mm size) was rusting, as they’re steel rings. I bathed them and the screws in Balistrol before mounting, so hopefully no future problems there.
So far so good. Picatinny options were very limited for a compact scope that wouldn’t fit a one-piece mount. Thanks again — a great example of this blog at work.
Only added comment is that the Burris Signature Zee rings are not standard size, at least not in 30mm. Their website specs did not match up to anything I measured on the rings I had. Their Medium ring is VERY low, their High is still lower than a standard Medium, and their Extra High jumps to about a High ring size.
HiveSeeker
That’s great that the rings worked out for you, glad to be of assistance. It’s too bad that you could not get +/- .020″ offsets, then you could have tweaked out the windage issue also. As for the potential rust problem, go on the web and check out Boeshield T9, it will even guard against salt water spray. Could you post a photo of your rifle with the Burris rings? I would be very interested to see it!
Bugbuster
BB, I sent you an email, if you get time to check.
Mike
Mike,
No receiveo.
B.B.
I didn’t know this was possible… This rifle is butt-ugly and it doesn’t even have a butt 🙂
Stephan,
And you’re doing this in a second language! I’m not even that funny in my native tongue.
B.B.
This is a case where looks are not deceiving.
Yikes!
B.B.,
Looks like you will soon be needing an assistant.
Pete
It doesn’t take a large airgun show to make me happy. Just getting to see my airgun buds is enough for me. Also, I have never been to an airgun show that did not have killer deals. It is tough when I don’t have the cash to get some of them. I recommend that you don’t go to an airgun show on a mission to find a particular gun, pellet, or accessory. That is a scenario destined for failure. Go to the show with an open mind. Find something neat that you have never even seen before. Talk to Tom, Eric Henderson, Dennis Quackenbush and other guys that you have read about on the forums but have not gotten to meet before. If you think the show will be too small for you to spend two days there plan a day at Hot Springs or one of the other beautiful parks in the spring color
I hope to see you in Arkansas,
David Enoch
Disappointing results. I’ve taken this off my wish-list.
Thanks for the honest review.
Mike,
I answered you.
B.B.
Copy that. More on the way.
Mike
I’ve had a Remington Summit .17 cal for ~7 years now, and I now see that the breech-seal o-ring is not consistent. How long do these last, in general? It’s got ~2300 shots through it, but stored closed, thus seal mashed flat 99.99% of the time. thanks!
Barrika,
You answered your own question. Mashing the o-ring flat is what kills it.
B.B.
B.B., I am a native Texas (for better or worse). I was not familiar with Poolville, so I dropped the name into Google maps. The first offered street view looked so interesting I took a look before even figuring out where Poolville is located. What I saw made me want to take a drive. Aside from the schools, churches and homesteads this looked like the main part of town. I like to enjoy the local flavor and it looks like the 5 am Donuts is the place to have some coffee and eats. Looks like a great place for an airgun show. I take it you need to bring your own lodging with you. I hope it is a great success. ~ken
Ken,
People stay in Weatherford, 15 miles south of Poolville. This year I expect to have over 80 dealers and 500 attendees.
B.B.
B.B.,
I sure am glad I didn’t jump ahead and buy this rifle before your final test. The looks still intrigue me though. I still like my Nagant revolver very much though. Unusually small for a revolver but shoots and looks great.
By the way, I just received my Rapid Air Weapons BM500 LW last night. Can’t wait to get it scoped and tested. I did not have a match grade rifle that qualified for Light Varmint before so I actually needed this one. Only downside is it took three months to get it. However, I am expecting great things from it. We’ll see.
G&G
BB– Is there any chance that the full stocked 44 carbine version of the obrez will be more accurate ? Can you publish the details of how to remove the barrels of these guns and replace them with rifled barrels ? Ed
Replacing the smoothbore barrels with rifled ones would be a good idea as long as the magazines can shoot lead 4.5mm/.177 balls reliably. Or Gletcher should figure out a revolving clip system for the magazine, so many kinds of pellets can be used.
Ed,
There is a chance that just another gun like the test gun would be more accurate, though what I got is what owners are reporting.
B.B.
Maybe you can try shooting Marksman airgun darts through the Obrez.? Should be more accurate than BBs. Only thing is, they are expensive.
B.B.
I just saw Paul Capello’s Airgun Reporter video for this Gletcher Mosin-Nagant 1891. He showed his accuracy shots on target from 15 feet. It looked like the shots grouped 2″ or less. Paul didn’t report the group size. Like you he did point out his dissatisfaction with the wiggle in the rear sight. Naturally because Paul is trying to help Pyramyd AIR sell the gun, his review was more positive than yours.
Well no need to sugarcoat it. A loser. In co2 rifles I could think of just a few others before I would put this on the drawing board. A SMLE Enfield, Mauser 98, Springfield 03.
Ooh, now you’re talking, an SMLE Jungle Carbine with a rifled barrel, 5 pellet stripper clip and a pair of 12g in the magazine, 11ft/lb would be possible I reckon, get Walther to make it as a stablemate for their lever gun
The Obrez did not fare well in this test and probably won’t be a best seller. tI will eventually be discontinued and when it’s gone, people will miss it and it will be considered a collector rarity. Then they will butcher the upcoming, better selling M44s to produce facsimiles of the Obrez, cutting them down to size when there are no more new originals to be had. Hahaha!
I am amazed that there is not a select fire M2 carbine , Grease Gun, MP40 or a Thompson bb or pellet select fire
I am disappointed that Pyramyd AIR does not sell a AR15 Lower for the Crosman MAR177 AR-15 Upper PCP Conversion Kit. Sure, it says it will fit any AR15 Lower but I’ve crossed that river before. If Pyramyd sold it I would know for certain it would fit.
G&G
G&G,
And you would be okay with paying for an FFL transfer in your state?
B.B.
B.B.,
I only vaguely know what you’re talking about. Apparently there is a difference between buying it from P.A. or someone else? Doesn’t make sense to me.
G&G
G&G,
An AR-15 lower is a firearm that has to be transferred by someone who has a federal fireams license (FFL). You can’t just buy one througn the mail. There is paperwork involved, and in some states, a waiting period after the purchase, too.
B.B.
If the Crosman upper fits genuine AR15 lowers — than the converse would also hold true; an AR15 upper would fit your wish-list Crosman lower… At that point you have a full firearm, and would have to go through the hassles of buying a BATFE controlled/serial-numbered frame.
B.B.,
Another replica that I would like to complain about for accuracy is the Makarov Ultra Blowback. Mine at least throws BBs all over the place. Nothing like the first Makarov which is a pretty good shooter. I don’t think you ever tested the Ultra.
G&G
G&G,
/blog/2014/05/legends-makarov-ultra-part-3/
B.B.
BB, I emailed you the contact information. Let me know if it didn’t make the trip.
Mike
Lionel Roach,
Long time , no hear, hope you aren’t “under the weather”! Did that Williams aperture sight work for you?
Bugbuster
I know this is one gun I’ll never own. I can’t see any good way of aiming it accurately with a chopped stock and barrel. Now if they make it full sized I just might think about it. If they used wood instead of cheap plastic I might be more tempted. But as it is now, I’m not the least tempted to own it.
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