by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- What does a firearms silencer sound like?
- What does a silencer do?
- Making the gasses work against themselves
- Silencers and the law
- What you think doesn’t matter
- The problem
- Code talkers
- So — are airgun silencers legal?
- How quiet?
- Times are a-changin’
- Summary
I just heard from someone who went through the legal process of registering a firearm silencer. He waited 11 months for the entire process to go through, and he very recently picked up his $600 silencer.
But — it isn’t silent!
No, It wouldn’t be. Firearm silencers are not silent, nor do they sound like a small airgun, as Hollywood often portrays them. But before you rag on the filmmakers, consider this. You can watch a video of an atomic bomb detonating, where the “sound” is so “loud” that it’s actually a solid visible wave of supercompressed air that shatters buildings. Yet you can watch it in comfort. That’s because your speakers cannot reproduce real sounds that loud — I don’t care how much you spend on them! In the real world people flinch violently when a firearm is fired, unless they are prepared for it. On the big screen it’s no more annoying than a rooster crowing.
To make a firearm completely silent either takes a far more expensive device, or a novel approach — like shooting through a loaf of bread. And even that isn’t completely silent.
What does a firearms silencer sound like?
A run-of-the-mill $350-700 silencer does quiet the report of a firearm significantly. As long as subsonic ammunition is used, the sound of a .22 long rifle rimfire cartridge will go from an annoying crack (the annoying part is because of what it does to the cilia of your inner ears — it breaks them off!) to a pop that’s about like a medium-powered spring piston air rifle. A .300 Blackout (.223 Remington necked up to accept a heavy .30 caliber bullet that moves out at around 900 f.p.s.) can be just as quiet as the rimfire round, but the silencer that does it has to be larger, because there’s more gas to quiet.
What does a silencer do?
A silencer disrupts the flow of hot pressurized gas that is generated when the gunpowder burns. There are different designs of silencers that do different things to the gas flow, but the bottom line is the longer the flow is interrupted, giving the pressure time to drop, the quieter the discharge will be.
At this point I want you to watch the You Tube video that reader Chris U.S.A. linked to last week. In less than 10 minutes you will see how a firearm silencer works and understand a lot more about what it is doing and has to do to silence the shot.
Making the gasses work against themselves
One of the techniques of reducing the muzzle blast is making the gasses work against themselves inside the silencer “can.” The reason I want you to watch that film is because it shows dramatically what happens in all silencers — firearm and airgun. The gasses are made to swirl and rebound against themselves, allowing the pressure to drop. Lower pressure is the key to a quieter report.
Silencers and the law
In the United States there are federal laws that control the production and legal ownership of silencers. As far as manufacture goes, a silencer is considered to be a firearm and must be serial-numbered and handled within strict federal guidelines. Silencer ownership is not illegal, as some believe, but it is closely controlled. Not only is the federal government involved, through the offices of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, but the police chief or sheriff within whose jurisdiction the silencer applicant resides has to sign off that it’s okay to make the sale. No signature, no sale. The applicant is photographed and fingerprinted as part of the application, so that data becomes available to law enforcement authorities. If you weren’t on the grid before, you will be!
What you think doesn’t matter
This is the area where people get in trouble. They imagine how things ought to be rather than investigating the law and seeing how it applies. I have told hundreds of airgunners over the years when they ask me whether the silencer they have made is legal, “I don’t know and I don’t want to find out from the witness stand.” The wise ones understand and the hardheads push on, living in their own world until someone informs them otherwise.
I received a letter from a prison inmate who was arrested, tried and convicted on a charge of making and selling an illegal silencer. He asked me to defend him in an appeal, but why would I do that? I had explained to him that what he had done was illegal, and, when his state’s prosecutor contacted me (at his request!), I told him the exact same thing. He was subsequently released when an appeal revealed a problem with the chain of custody of the evidence, but that was after he spent several years in prison.
Yes — it is illegal to make a firearm silencer unless you are licensed to do so. And if you do make one you must follow all the required steps for control.
The problem
Are airgun silencers illegal? Not per se, but they can become so if they will also function as a firearm silencer. Now, this is where the good old boys start to blue-sky the discussion to obfuscate things. They talk about how a 2-liter soda bottle can function as a silencer, or a loaf of fresh bread, or how parts can be cut off airguns and machined into silencers — so where is the line to be drawn?
It doesn’t matter.
What matters is if a device can be attached to a firearm and reduce the muzzle report by even one decibel for just one shot, it’s classified as a silencer. Those who have studied the law will recognize that intent is the underlying factor. The good old boys can postulate all they want, but when one of them steps over the line and builds something that will silence a firearm, he has just entered the world where things can happen. Will they happen? Not always. Can they happen? Yes — every time. Because intent has been established.
Code talkers
Okay, silencers are bad (no, they’re not — they are regulated). Let’s not call them silencers. Let’s call them moderators or suppressors, instead. That doesn’t sound so bad. No, wait — let’s call them lead dust collectors, so people will think they are actually there for health reasons. Yeah — BATFE will never figure that out!
I bet they laughed themselves silly when that one came out. Or better yet, we’ll call them decibel reduction devices and say they are for protecting shooter’s ears. Isn’t that what they really do? And let’s just use the initials, DRD, so nobody who isn’t on the inside will have a clue! Nyuk, nyuk!
So — are airgun silencers legal?
If they are attached to the airgun in such a way that they can’t come off and be used where they shouldn’t be used, then yes, BATFE has no problem with them. After all, BATFE has no authority over airguns — by law!
And, if the airgun is designed in such a way that the sound reduction is inherent, like it is in the TalonSS from AirForce Airguns, then no problem.
However…
If you can fill in the rest of the however statement, you understand. If you can’t, then I would tread very carefully.
“But what if I cut off the tubular frame of the Talon SS and make a Delrin adaptor to attach it to the barrel of my Ruger 10/22?” I would call that intent. How about you?
How quiet?
I talked about firearm silencers not being completely silent, but with airguns the story is different. They still are not completely silent, but they are a lot closer. I have seen a few where all you could hear was the operation of the rifle’s action. A slight “ping” and perhaps the impact of the pellet downrange. You don’t have to spend thousands of dollars to silence an airgun like you do a firearm.
Times are a-changin’
When I bought my silencer in 2005, they were still something that polite people didn’t talk about — even here in Texas. Today, however, Texas has a law making it legal to hunt with a silenced firearm. The times they are a-changin’!
There is a stamp that costs $200.
And there is what $560 and a year’s wait gets you. Not very exciting, is it?
Thirty-nine states allow silencers, which leaves 11 that don’t. I would imagine you can pretty well name most of those. So, what happens if you are transferred to a state where your legal silencer isn’t allowed. You no-taka along — that’s what happens. “But what if I close off both ends and say it’s a pill bottle?” Then, be prepared to take your medicine!
Summary
I used to be very concerned about the airgun silencer issue, until I got grounded in the basic law. Now it doesn’t bother me so much. If you buy a silenced airgun today like the TX200 Mark III or the Sig ASP20, you have no problem. On the other hand, I don’t own any screw-on airgun silencers and nobody can convince me to buy one.
Although the times have changed and in some ways they have relaxed a bit, silencers are still subject to regulation and control in the U.S. Don’t be like the guy in California who thought it could never happen to him and got visited by the ATF when his British silencer was delivered. He became an instant believer who was only too happy to share his story, surrender his silencer and stay out of jail!
So Hugget, Donnyfl, tko, aoa, Utah air, and countless others are AT the line. I can understand PA and forums like GTA taking a hard line to stop speaking about them. But it does seem at this point the cat is out of the bag. Kind of like buying lockpicks. They used to be hard to get, but internet. They are only an access device with intent. But really I think will get serious as soon there is a bigbore crime spree.
Also the new FX line ships with a Donnyfl screw on as a factory option.
Edw,
The intent of the Criminal Justice System is also a factor. Unless he or she is suspected of burglary, a professional locksmith has too demonstrable of an honest motive to carry the profession’s tools-of-the-trade. But anyone else with a lock pick, professional or homemade, disassembled or not, could be charged with possession of burglary tools if law enforcement desired a legal reason to detain that person.
A removable silencer on an airgun gives law enforcement a legal excuse to detain you for whatever their actual motive. Lacking another motive a peace officer, even a BATF agent, might just choose to ignore it. But why tempt fate?
I have watched uniformed law officers visibly ignore someone who was in a public park, probably intoxicated, and drinking from an unconcealed beer bottle. I also know law enforcement professionals who, if they needed probable cause to detain and search someone, would not hesitate to use an open, full beer bottle in a brown paper bag as a justification.
Michael
That’s kind of my point. Just don’t be an idiot. Kinda like firearms are legal, just don’t give anyone a reason to notice you
B.B.
Thinking about loctiteing my “LDC” to the barrel. Is that permanently attached?
If I could, I would weld it on. Yes they only work somewhat on springers, but they do help a bit.
-Y
Yogi,
Assemble 12 people who know nothing about airguns and ask them the same question. That’s what the prosecutor will do.
B.B.
B.B. and Yogi,
I’m not a firearm guy or a lawyer, but that doesn’t mean I’m automatically wrong.
Locktite can be loosened with heat, so the silencer could be removed without destroying it, which means it could be removed and put on a firearm for at least one sound-reduced shot. Yogi, I think if an airgunner really liked a particular airgun-silencer combination, epoxying it to the barrel or welding it to the barrel is the way to go.
Or if possible, just simply purchase a similar air gun that has an integral sound-suppressing system installed by the manufacturer.
Michael
Yogi,
There you go. That’s one opinion. Now you need 11 more.
B.B.
:^)
Wouldn’t heating the LDC to be able to remove the high strength loctite destroy the felt innards and warp the thin aluminum tube of the LDC? I own no fire arms to transfer said LDC to.
FWIW-I probably do something slightly illegal every day, not on purpose…
-Y
Yogi
I was going to reply but I changed my mind.
😉
Mr. Gaylord:
This isn’t your first article on suppressors correct? Shouldn’t today’s posting be Second or even Third Update? 🙂 🙂
I have at least two earlier articles you’ve authored in my collection.
/article/Airgun_silencers_What_s_the_big_deal_August_2006/32
and
/blog/2014/11/an-update-on-airgun-silencers/
18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(24) provides the definition of silencer as
“any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.”
And those 12 jurors you’ve mentioned are likely to hear some form of a pattern federal jury instructions used in silencer cases. The judge will usually define the offense using the following elements:
In order to find the defendant guilty, you the jury must find,
First, that the defendant knowingly possessed the device described in the indictment.
Second, the device was a firearm silencer, that is, it was a device for silencing, muffling or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts designed or redesigned which the defendant intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer, or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
Third, the defendant knew of the characteristics of the device that would make it function as a firearm silencer and he intended it to function as a firearm silencer and he intended it to function as such even if it did not actually work to silence a firearm.
And, fourth, the firearm silencer was not registered to the defendant in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record.
United States v Rose, 522 F3d 710, 719–20 (CA 6, 2008)
And for those who would cut off or otherwise remove a suppressor from an air gun, you may want to carefully read ATF Ruling 2005-4.
In my opinion, it’s critical to fully understand an appreciate the last two paragraphs of ATF Ruling 2005-4
Held, a device for an unregulated paintball gun, having a permanently affixed, integral ported barrel and other components, that functions to reduce the report of the paintball gun is not a “firearm silencer” or “firearm muffler” as defined, as the device is not one for diminishing the report of a portable firearm.
Held further, removal of the permanently affixed ported barrel and other components from a paintball gun is a “making” of a silencer under the GCA and NFA that requires advance approval from ATF.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2005-4-ported-device-attached-barrel-paintball-gun/download
Respectfully submitted
Wm. Schooley
William,
Wow! And I thought no one was paying attention!
Thanks for everything,
B.B.
When the Godfather speaks, we all listen and pay attention.
WS
Yes,
but like most things, get a good lawyer and have no reason for somebody to make an example of you, and you will be alright. Piss the wrong DA off and you are in trouble…
-Y
Yogi
And just to make a example.
Not to assume, “white privilege”, unless the DA has it in for you, or wants to make an example of you, They will shut you down, fine you, scold you, put you in jail. Sorry, I’ll take my chances. I really do not want to piss of the neighbors, they are the most likely to “rat you out”…
Just my $0.02,
-Y
Yogi
And a good $0.02 at that.
Amen 🙂
My screw on weihrauch for my 97k makes a huge difference. It was only 99$ from aoa. Don’t live in fear, and don’t be stupid.
All of these are considered prohibited devices in Canada. All laws are local, so make sure you know which ones apply in your jurisdiction!
B.B.
If you’re taking requests, I’d love a quick primer on where airgun safety differs from firearms safety – for instance, while familiarizing myself with my first air rifle (Diana 24 break barrel), I realized that there wasn’t a way of unloading it that didn’t involve using a cleaning rod to push the pellet out! As a firearms user, I’d taken it for granted that chambered rounds can be extracted as a matter of course, but…
Chanman819,
That is a great suggestion! I wish I had thought of it. I need to think about it for awhile, to come up with some other differences.
B.B.
B.B.,
Number two: Some firearms can be dry-fired without being damaged. But don’t dare do that with a spring air gun.
Michael
B.B.,
I, also, like Chanman819’s suggestion; I think it would be very helpful to many.
And as for this primer on silencers, thank you!
I found it very informative.
And I plan to steer WAY clear of any kind of airgun screw-on silencer.
Thanks again.
Take care & God bless,
dave
B.B.,
Great and clearly presented blog (a heroic attempt) to educate about the Suppressor and Airgunners use of said device. Unfortunately as you well know there is the 10% that never gets the message.
As far as Chanman819’s request for firearm vs Airgun SAFETY:
The deadliest difference is in PCP and single/multipump/CO2 pneumatics (to a far lesser degree in springpiston powerplants) is that if cocked and/or precharged they are to be considered as loaded. The rational for that, is that a modern firearm uses a cartridge {powder and projectile(s) are a unit loaded at the same time} the Airgun even without the pellet/ball/bullet(s) loaded is/can be DANGEROUS! The fact that any matter in the barrel, including the air/gas can be propeled with sufficient force to cause injury or death. If you need an example a standard round pencil fits in my .308 DAQ and has sufficient mass to achieve a pass through in a block of ballistic gelatine at close range, even the air blast alone is sufficient to drive lubricant through your dermal layer (skin) or blow an eyeball to bits.
Obviously, these are worst case senarios but need to be understood by folks new to Airguns.
shootski
shootski,
I may demonstrate that on American Airgunner, if it ever gets going.
B.B.
Makes sense to me! It’s effectively the same as firing a blank with a firearm – where it gets interesting is with the spring guns, where the stored mechanical energy might be better compared to a crossbow… and you better not dry fire one of those!
I suppose another thing is that it seems most spring piston air guns can’t be de-cocked – at least, not if they have an anti-beartrap mechanism.
My Diana RWS 34P can be de-cocked. The airgun is used for pesting sparrows and starlings so it had to be de-cocked often. I also have a Crosman Nitro Venom which cannot be de-cocked. I had to shoot the pellet out every time before bringing the gun back into the house. I use a PCP now which is much easier, just de-cock the bolt.
Chan819
Most sensible comment on this blog yet. Something that will teach a new air gunner. Not discourage them.
B.B.,
Thank you for the update. Given the (current) status of the air gun world, here and overseas,… I would have thought that there would have been some ( SOLID ) progress and ( CLEAR ) separation of airgun moderators from firearm moderators by now in the U.S..
As you know, in the U.K., they are hugely popular and encouraged.
I sure do wish that my Red Wolf had one.
Good Day to you and to all,…….. Chris 😉
That was a cool video Chris posted. I watched it the other day when he posted it.
I still would like to see the tests done with air guns. Like I mentioned before and Chris also. Would probably need to blow some smoke into the barrel to be able to see it with a air gun.
But that was some nice slow mo filming in the video.
BB
You’re showin’ your age a little. That permit is from the ATF NOT the newer and better ATFE! 🙂
Half
Half,
I wondered whether anyone would notice that. Yup, this transfer was done in 2005.
B.B.
B.B.,
I read somewhere online over the weekend a comment along the lines of, “I remember years ago when PCP hand pumps like my Hill pump required so much effort. But now hand pumps are so much easier.”
I had not heard that before. Is that true? Years ago I bought a brand-new second or third generation Hill pump, and it is always very hard from the earliest pumps.
If newer pumps are indeed easier, roughly how much easier? Are any pumps these days known for being especially lighter pumping than others?
Thanks much in advance.
Michael
Michael,
I useta could tell you, but now I’m not as sure. I think the new pumps are a little smoother and easier, but it isn’t a big difference.
B.B.
Michael,
I don’t think the technology has changed much. Maybe one of the newer 4 stage pumps would be easier to pump? I have a cheap Taousa hand pump I bought for $85. As far as I can tell it is designed just like the more expensive models. I did initially have some issues with slow leaks but a little teflon tape on the fittings fixed that. I think the difficulty with using a hand pump is more about technique than anything else. You have to use your body weight on the down stroke and go slowly. I weigh 185 and have no problem filling my Urban PCP to 3000 psi. It does take a lot more force when you go over 3000. The pump is rated for 4500 psi but that would be extremely difficult, unless you weighed 300 lbs. I don’t normally fill my Urban more than 3 times in a shooting session when I am verifying the POI with the scope.
BTW, B.B. has a video demonstrating the proper technique to use with a hand pump.
Geo
Geo,
Thanks for the information. I had forgotten about that video B.B. made. I will watch it again.
Michael
Geo
Do you get wore out or is the ole body in good shape.
Hand pumps are cool. They serve a purpose. No electric is one.
Maybe one day when I win the lottery I’ll gift you a hpa compressor. 🙂
GF1,
Yes, for 72 I am in pretty good shape. I have no physical issues, like a bad back or arthritis. I just don’t have the stamina I used to have. Still, I don’t mind using the hand pump for the amount of shooting I do. I know you do much more than I, so I understand that you like the compressor.
Hey! Hurry up and win that lottery. A new HPA compressor would be very nice. 🙂
Geo
Geo
That’s good about your health.
And yes about the lottery. 🙂
I worked out with weight machines a lot when I was younger, until after my second hernia surgery about 10 years ago. At 72 I still retain much of that strength, and have more grip strength than most guys. I open all the jars lids in the family and sometimes fear I’m going to break the glass jar in my hands. So yes, I don’t mind a bit of a workout with the hand pump 🙂
Geo
I’m 57 and still work out. I got weights and some other stuff in the basement that I use.
I don’t work out as often though is the problem. I use to work out every day. Now probably about 3 times a week. I break it up a little. And when I take th dog out in the morning after work I run with him. So I do keep pretty active.
With me you know I shoot alot. So when I’m shooting I want to get that gun filled up fast for the next gun. Plus I’m still working. So when I’m done shooting I got several guns to fill and I want it done fast.
If it wasn’t for all that I would probably hand pump.
GF1,
You are better off working out with weights only 3 times a week. It gives your body time to recover.
Totally understand your need to fill your airguns quickly, especially when shooting more than one at time. I really respect your opinions on airguns, pellets, and shooting. You have a lot of empirical experience and know what you are talking about. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the airgun community.
Geo
Well I thank you. Just say’n what I do and seen is the best I can say.
And yes I believe I was over working myself in my younger days.
I feel good still for the most part. I hope I’m still doing well at 72. And good for you at 72.
Geo,
I can’t find that video of B.B. showing how to use a hand pump for the life of me. Do you have the URL for it?
Michael
Michael,
Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nEDTq2ZAho
Which came from this article: /article/Using_a_hand_pump_May_2006/30
Siraniko
Siraniko, Thanks!
Michael
Here is another good video on using a hpa hand pump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0Xoy7gJoD8
And Siraniko beat me to the ones he has posted. But in case you are interested here is a review of an Air Venturi hand pump that B.B. did in 2015. There are two parts.
/blog/2015/07/air-venturi-hand-pump-part-1/
/blog/2015/08/air-venturi-hand-pump-part-2/
Geo
Geo, Thanks!
Michael
I had a hill pump that I sold because it was so hard to get to 3k. I just got a cheap Chinese Benjamin pump and it is easier. Enough easier to make me use a PCP. This is going from an unregulated aa410 22 to a Gauntlet 25. I’m getting a lot more power for less effort. I’m still plannt on an electric pump for convince though.
Edw,
Thanks for that information. I have wondered if perhaps it is the Hill pump. I bought that brand because it was hailed as by far the most rugged (and it is that), but maybe the second and third generations of Hill pump require the most rugged of users, too.
Either way, whether I leave the Dark Side or try a different pump, I have a barely used Hill pump with dry-pack I am going to sell.
Michael
Michael
I wonder about this issue too, with the manufacture and sale happening openly and apparently quasi-legal? FX adopts a USA made detachable for sale here. But another angle to make you wonder, so called “metro barrel” extensions for shotguns. Assured to be legal, AND screw on…
Available for 12 years now.
Does that assurance also offer to go to jail in your place if the court doesn’t see it that way? ;^)
Patented, trade marked, written up in Field and Stream, sold at Cabelas, I think you could feel safe from the law using one.
Did anybody watch the video?
Still cool stuff. The physics and technology.
Not just the test mufflers they made but the camera work and I’m sure timed involved to get the tests and everything set up.
Let’s get off this stupid legal talk people. That’s the quickest way to bring a fun subject to a end.
We are all grown adults and I’m sure have witnessed many things throughout our life’s that was probably not comfortable.
I’m keeping it nice here on the blog. But f… the legal stuff and let’s talk about the interesting stuff on this subject. The video was cool.
Or did nobody watch it and got caught up in this legal mamma drama. It’s always like this when the law gets involved. Watch the video.
I bet the moonshiners back in the day would be laughing if they read today’s blog. How about that. 🙂
Gunfun1,
I watched the video a few days ago too! It was cool seeing the flow.
A muffler, is a muffler, is a muffler! Lol!
Just like on cars! But way more instantaneous backpressure and heat!
X10 on dropping the law topic! Do or Do not! Reader’s choice!
shootski
Shootski
Yep.
Yup, I watched the video also. Very interesting how the gases flowed and the force that actually fractured the silencer.
Geo
What I like is the gases and pressure seem to be over. Then all of a sudden the outer shell just starts disintegrating.
They did very good work filming. What keeps coming to mind is how expensive thier equipment was. And the knowledge they had to use it correctly.
GF1,
Several years ago American Airgunner rented a camera that was one-tenth as fast as the one this guy uses. Ours cost over a thousand dollars a day, as I recall and it was $40,000 to purchase. No doubt the price has changed over time, but ultra high speed cameras (in color) are still very costly.
B.B.
BB
Right.
Now that’s the conversations we should be having.
Think about what all this legal talk just did for a new air gunner if they read this report searching the blog.
Why put the information out there for the wrong people to use.
I will say that I learned something from this discussion though. The moderator on my Urban is fixed, so not a problem. But thinking about Chris’s Red Wolf, Daystate uses a screw on moderator so that would be a problem. Without one, it would finitely not be back yard friendly. So when selecting and particular airgun, this is something that should be considered. I now know the reasoning behind a fixed moderator.
Geo
And as it goes. Alot of Benjamin and Crosman guns use screw on mufflers.
And like I’m saying. Now more info for someone like a prosecuting attorney to use.
This sound muting discussion can get pretty deep if we want to go there. Do we want to keep going? Really.
How about this. Let’s just keep airgun shooting fun. Let’s do some plinking everybody.
Now a prosecuting attorney will pull this blog up and use the info in a discriminating manner. They won’t think so. But I bet all of us air gunners will think that.
I know the mufflers on air guns are reality. And as it goes people will take things how they want.
Maybe one of these days the stars will line up and I’ll be a juror on a air gun case.
You know how I’ll vote.
Geo,
What Red Wolf???? Never heard of that one. 😉
Chris
Oh, that must have been someone else. 😉
GF1,
You may like it, you may not. You may abide and you may not. I would rather be (informed) of the current take on all of this. You know what is out there. If someone is stepping into shady territory, then it is better that they know. Nothing may ever happen,…. but it is good to know the “what if’s”.
Chris
Chris
Yes about being informed. But also it gives the attorneys amminition so to speak. They can read the blogs and get informed too. And probably use it the wrong way against someone. I’m sure they got winning and money on thier minds.
I would be curious as to how many attorneys are into shooting airguns and perusing the blog. Somehow, I doubt there are very many, if any at all.
Geo
Exactly.
Another very interesting subject BB. Like others I am surprised that, with the wide availability of suppressed airguns, there has not been technical and legal developments to help keep everyone on the good side of the law.
At first glance it would seem that an intentionally designed low pressure device would work well in a PCP or springer while loudly bursting in a firearm, thus producing no meaningful sound attenuation for even that first (and only) shot. OK, this may not work, but I am sure there are better ideas out there.
Henry
Henry_TX,
Nice try on the low pressure burst…however pressure doesn’t measure well when the Charge includes intent and no need for the device to actually be (per BATFE and caselaw) functional. This is one place where the 2nd Amendment caselaw doesn’t cut it. And, Airguns have NO protection s from the Constitution and its Bill of Rights.
shootski
There is caselaw. I can’t find it now, but it was a felon tweaker lowlife. He got off. Not without some jail time though.
Have found CCI Quiet .22s to be very sound-friendly and lethal enough, when conducting anti invasive-reptile operations in the backyard. A friend has a different philosopy, and is willing to spend the time and bucks to equip his varmint-suppressing firearms with legally-sanctioned silencers. That’s not in FM’s budget. He’d rather get a nice, capable air rifle to do the job. Different strokes for different folks.
As for juries, the problem with our legal system is we do not generally face a “jury of our peers;” maybe this was true 100-200 years ago, when the educational and common-sense level of the general population was more balanced throughout the country, and technology not overly complex, but now not so much. In my opinion, any juror who, say, has no basic understanding of firearms, silencers, and so on, should be subject to elimination via the peremptory challenge process, for a trial involving a defendant facing firearms law violations. Yes, experts can be called in to testify and “illuminate” the jury, but it is FM’s perhaps misguided belief that we’re facing a plague of “expert-in-their-own-mind” types.
Fortunately, we can still, as jurors, invoke the concept of “jury nullification,” if we think some poor defendant is being screwed by a zealous prosecutor with an agenda or even personal vendetta against the citizen. This happened in a trial in Morton Grove, IL in the ’80s. A handgun ban had been passed by the city fathers (or mothers? 😉 – an otherwise law-abiding business owner was charged with breaking the ban law when he defended his premises from perps breaking in. The jury refused to convict, evidently thinking the defendant’s right to protect his life and property trumped (no pun intended) Morton Grove’s blanket handgun ban, which is another way of saying the jury believed the law was unconstitutional. I recall reading – believe it was in “American Rifleman” – the prosecutor was very upset with the jurors’ decision and wanted to explore other charges against the defendant, but don’t recall he got anywhere with that. Needless to say, better to always err on the side of caution when attempting to interpret laws. Most lawmakers don’t have a clue about the meaning of the laws they’re trying to implement, their impact, and certainly not about the unintended consequences. This is the one takeaway FM had after being a square peg trying to fit into a round hole in 37.5 years of Federal service – not with ATF/BATF, by the way.
Good comments today. Like I said in my original comment, I would have expected that B.B.’s report would have shown some advancement/progress in laws and definitions. I (fully) expected something new, given the current day availability and distribution of said topic. Perhaps the airgun community and the firearm community are working on this?
Perhaps this the “ace up the sleeve” that law enforcement can use, in lieu of something more,… to get their foot in the door,.. as some suggest?
Lastly,… it is not something new as it has been done on air guns in the U.K. for quite some time now. How long specifically, I do not know. At any rate, (there/that) is some history, track record and precedence to look at.
Chris
An interesting an educational posting. Even (for practical purposes) correct. Well done.
But do not be making the fatal error of “standing on your rights” and in any way attempting to circumvent federal or even local law or state law on the issues.
Don’t be a “Bubba”
Unless you want to spend your retirement fund and remaining days fighting a battle you’re almost sure to lose in any case.
Think it through. The issues are very much in flux and soldering a ‘can’ to the muzzle of your Benjamin or 10-22 is guaranteed to be unproductive.
But did you win?
And what exactly did you win?
Hmmm?
Think…
Hang in, choose you’re battles more wisely and fight the bastards in the courts
Everyone ,
The law is very simple . 1) If it is integral to Your Airgun and Not adaptable to firearms You have no worries. 2) After speaking with the BATFE technical director at the SHOT Show many years ago about this issue , He stated as long as it is integral You are fine . ANY THREADED device that is external is INTENT !! I spoke to Him due to all the questions We get here . Anyone who has a external device is begging for real trouble !! BATFE knows of the guns that have integral baffles such as Benjamin , AirForce , Air-Arms , etc. . If You really want a suppressor for Your air gun Get a Tax Stamp and do it legally . If You are caught with one of these Your life is ruined . If I had a nickel for every customer that has asked Me these questions , I would have a Egg Harbor Yacht !
Gene Salvino
Senior Gunsmith , Air Venturi
Gene
That’s funny
Marauder’s have a threaded shroud.
So now how does that comply.
Can we stop now with the bull ,,,,, laws.
No I’m not a lawyer but I do know some good ones.
Really why keep bringing this up. BB?
Chris posted a good video of how gases or I guess I can say air flow happens. Then it turns into a blog about this ….
Make a blog about how we can learn what air flow does with a pellet when it leaves the barrel. Or don’t bring it up again.
Sorry but I get tired of positives getting turned into negatives. I really was expecting something different when I read this blog when you let it go that night.
GF1,
You may not appreciate this, but over a quarter-million people read this blog every day. Not all of them have been around as long as you. Many are brand new to airguns.
I bring things like this up from time to time because the thousands of new guys we get each month need to hear them. If I don’t tell them, they go on the chat forums where the blind are only too ready to guide them.
B.B.
BB
Wow.
Read my comment I was typing while you just posted.
Sometimes too much information will hurt things more than help.
I’m surprised you ain’t seeing that by now.
Sorry but this is the stuff that happens over and over.
Stick to the reviews and technical reports and I think it will contribute to a better air gun world.
I’m kind of vocal on this ain’t I. I get tired of hearing the bull s…
It’s that full super moon I guess. I’ll be over it in a day or so I guess.
GF1,
It did not “turn into this” because of the video. I asked B.B. about a month ago for an current update on moderators. The video was just happenstance that it coincided with his article.
Chris
Everyone,
Reader Kevin emailed me a private message that I think he didn’t want to surprise me with on the blog. But it is germane to this conversation.
“Hi Tom, I was reading your blog on suppressors and I do believe that the requirement for a “sign off” by the Chief Local Law Enforcement Official (CLEO) is no longer in place. There is a provision for the CLEO to be notified of the transaction but the days of some local dokel pain in the butt being a roadblock are indeed over.
Kevin”
I have learned something. If this is true, then the laws have relaxed a bit.
B.B.
And my apologies Crosman/Benjamin
Wasn’t meaning to beat you up.
There are others with screw on shrouds too. How about the Gauntlet on the lower side of the scale and the higher dollar swedish air guns too. Some German ones also
And again. Why did I bring it up. More discriminating info.
I think BB should eliminate be this whole blog.
Now…now GF1. Ease up, this too shall pass. Tomorrow will be a new subject and new discussion.
Geo
Yes I know.
And was fun stir’n the pot a little bit. Ain’t done that in a while.
And a perfect subject at that.
And now back to our regular scheduled program. 🙂
B.B.
This whole blog about supressors gave me a thought. I may not have them often but I had one today. Considering the legalities to get a supressor, how easy would it be to sell one you no longer want? Also how much value would it have? Meaning, would you get back most of your investment.
Gerald
Gerald,
You would have to go through a Class III dealer and that would strip away a lot of money.
B.B.
Since I live in Canada where any silencer is prohibited I’m only asking this question out of curiosity, but how would a DeLisle Carbine be regulated in the U.S.? I watched a video of a man in Britain shooting one and thought it was a fascinating rifle and it seemed to be a very “integrated” design as opposed to a silencer being attached to an existing gun. Would the entire firearm be considered as a single unit using the receiver serial number or would there need to be a new special serial number just for the silencing elements that were built onto the original design? I assume that just because the DeLisle is a built to purpose silenced firearm and not an add-on unit wouldn’t mean that the laws didn’t apply to to it so it would need the stamp, the payment, the fingerprinting of the buyer etc.
Fortunately my FWB602 and my HW-77 are quiet enough that I don’t feel the need for a completly-illegal-in-my-country silencer when I’m shooting. If I owned a high power PCP I’m sure I would feel differently:-)
Nowhere,
The DeLisle is too quiet, here is a video backyard friendly 45 near the end of the video he talks about the US rules, do not know how that stands in Canada. An interesting item for sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUALdGog4U
Mike
Thanks! Great video. I’m not surprised that the answer is that it requires two stamps etc. one for the basic rifle, one for the silencer portion. A definite no in Canada, unless perhaps I had already owned one prior to the legislation that made silencers prohibited. It looks so interesting and the thought of shooting a marriage of the Lee bolt action, a short handy barrel and the .45ACP round is appealing enough that I would probably be happy with a look-alike that wasn’t silenced – not that anyone would make one. I like the Lee-Enfield a lot but have to admit that the cost and the recoil of the .303 round can be exhausting to someone like me who primarily shoots .177 air rifles. I like to go to the range but it doesn’t take many rounds through rifles like the Lee-Enfield/K98/Springfield etc. before I want to go back to a .22LR or the air rifles.
The first time my friend let me try his Moisin-Nagant I had been shooting nothing but the FWB602 for about four months – that first shot I made with the Nagant felt like getting hit by a meteor in comparison!
First, I did not read ALL the comments, so if I repeat, forgive me.
One, I have fired a silenced .22 single shot with subsonic ammo and the hammer fall was louder than the shot!!
Two, no lawyer worth his salt would allow anti-gun, non-air-gunners to populate the jury. That is why they question potential jurors. To eliminate as much bias as possible.
Mobilehomer,
Welcome to the discussion. Your .22 sounds very quiet!
Lawyers can peremptorily challenge a juror, but the judge sets a limit to the number that can be dismissed that way. Beyond that limit, all dismissals must have a reason. So, if a juror you don’t want is called for questioning and you can’t find a reason to dismiss, and you are out of peremptory challenges, as long as the other side accepts that juror, they are in.
B.B.
B.B.
In light of everything you said and what Gene Salvino said above, why then is it OK for Pyramyd to sell “Fake Suppressors” like this product listed at Pyramyd AIR.
/product/tsd-jbu-fake-airsoft-suppressor-4-75-aluminum?a=3590
Even though it’s an empty aluminum cylinder, it’s still a threaded, removable device. The gas expansion inside could in principle still act as a sound “silencer”. What makes this product legal for Pyramyd AIR to sell without proof of license by the buyer? What makes this product legal for airgunners to possess it?
Charles,
Because it doesn’t work. That is why I often write that a silencer has “technology” inside. In other words, it really does silence the gun. Otherwise, it’s a fake and of no interest to BATF&&E.
B.B.
I am the guy was in 2004 was framed for the Interstate Transportation of a Firearm Silencer in Springfield, MA Federal Court by a corrupt judge and Asst. U.S. Attorney who raped the statute with a ridiculous interpretation that they forced the jury to adhere to in their instructions. Just to let you know, after my conviction was overturned and I was ordered acquitted by the First Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals, in 2012, the BATF gave me back my silencer and the Sam Yang 44 caliber rifle that went with it. I am probably the only one in the nation who has a silencer with gunshot residue in it (placed there by the BATF nitwits) that was never registered and who was handed it by BATF themselves. In 2014 I was awarded $172,465.75 for wrongful imprisonment by the U.S. Court of Federal Claims in that case.